Guest guest Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 At 09:16 AM 1/26/09 +0200, Sari wrote: >Hi list, > >To get a better picture of how the signs actually work I've been lately >doing a study where I compare sidereal Fagan/Bradley signs with their >tropical equivalents. I went through the usual 130 samples from ADB, and >looked which of them had often planets in sidereal signs versus tropical >signs. I used the seven visible planets only. This might be a good way to >find out how the sidereal signs actually work, and on which zodiac the >planetary rulers show better. > >This might also settle the question dividing the sidereal community about >the " leaking theory " , a stand adopted by Therese where the traits of >original sidereal signs have actually " leaked " to the modern-day tropical >signs: sidereal Aries is like tropical Taurus; sidereal Taurus is like >tropical Gemini, etc.. Hi Sari, Just to give credit where credit is due, this idea was Cyril Fagan's original premise, and I've simply followed along since I believe he had the right idea. Both Fagan and I also believe that there really is no astrological tropical zodiac. >[sari:]... for example in " Vedic Astrology Simply Put " by William R. Levacy, that offers >the same cook book delineations found in every Western tropical beginner's >book, only applied on the sidereal zodiac. [Therese:] This approach makes me cringe, and has done more than anything else to discredit sidereal signs in my opinion. >[sari:] Now when I went through the sidereal signs, Therese's claim about masculine >signs being more introverted and feminine ones more extroverted proved to be >valid. But there was something curious. The feminine signs were more active >and " harder " in other ways too, and the masculine signs seemed to be softer >and more yielding as Sharma puts it. [Therese:] Actually the feminine signs in theory would be more active because the focus is outside the self. This isn't a definition of 'hard,' which is really not defined in Jyotish. Probably the meaning is meant to be 'firm,' which isn't he same as 'hard.' There are always translation problems with words in Indian books. >[sari:] For example sidereal Taurus gave a lot of sportsmen in its top-15 samples: >football players, tennis players, rugby players, athletes, outdoor people, >boxers & martial fighters, people served in the army. That's seven samples >out of 15, almost a half of them. Those groups don't sound like soft and >yielding (undoubtedly feminine qualities in any culture). [Therese:] I think it best to post here my summary of masculine and feminine sign principles: Male Principles: --------------- Static principle: (centered in self) Concentrated, one-pointed Sustaining, firm, resistant Autronomous, self-motivated (That is, Aristotale's hot/cold) Female Principles: ----------------- Dynamic (moves outward) Ephemeral, variable, changing Flexible, pliable (willing to change) Interacts, makes connections,shares I'd say that 'soft' is again, a word that doesn't really describe principles like flexibility or being willing to change, though it does match with 'pliable.' Also Sari, you and I take different approaches to research. If I want to study the influence of a sign, I'll narrow my research, say, to a planet near the ascendant. (This is my Virgo--small things approach.) In contrast, you are more Jupiterian/Piscean in your appraoach. You'll take *all* the planets in every chart in (for example) a sidereal sign. I'd say all those planets may not apply directly to the person, but may relate to other house matters. Of course, if this were a university class, each of us would present our results for study and discussion under the direction of a professor. I've been looking at stelliums in signs which include the Sun and two or more of the personal planets. >[sari:] On the other hand >for example healers and therapists, people with metaphysical beliefs, >mystical personalities and humanists & philosophers seldom had planets in >sidereal Taurus in this study. > >When we move on to the next sign, Gemini, there we find softness and >sensitivity: people with mystical experiences, people with vulnerable >constitutions, rape & sex victims, suicides, gay men, artists & fashion >designers. On the other hand mathematicians & statisticians, physics and >chemists had few planets in sidereal Gemini in this study. [Therese:} These are interesting results, and deserve a closer look. I *have* observed that the mathematical side of Mercury expresses in Virgo, but only infrequently in Gemini. Gemini seems more to take on the traits of devotion in the mythology of Castor and Pollux. There is also a political emphasis in Gemini. We do see the inner/outer reflected in this research, which is as it should be in male/female theory. Also: Taurus: Venus and the Moon, both planets that relate to others. How can there be an 'alone' Venus? And the Moon has no sense of self unless it can reflect energy back from others. (On the other hand, a Libra Venus can restrict itself to the pair relationship, and is influenced by loner Saturn's exalation in her sign.) >[sari:] The same tendency goes on from sign to sign: feminine signs are more >extroverted, aggressive and outgoing... [Therese:} I think I'd remove 'aggressive' from this list since that trait belongs to Mars. Extraverted and outgoing, yes, just as women network more easily than men. Men march in groups with uniforms (armies, teams). Women personally network with each other. >[sari:] , masculine signs show sensitivity, intuition and softness. This is not how it should be. [Therese:] I don't think you'll find the Aries trigon (Aries, Leo, Sagittarius) either intuitive or soft. Of course, the check on this would be individual biographies from ADB. For our resarch there's a need to carefully define the words we're using. This introduces a certain rigidity into research which astrologers may not be comfortable with. I'll reply to the remainder of your post separately, Sari. I do find it interesting that you and I are clearly expressing our own horoscopes in these discussions. My Mercury is influenced by Mars (Scorpio, mutual reception with Mars) and Saturn (lunar mansion) while your Mercury has a partile opposition from Jupiter and a close square from Neptune. You have a Piscean stellium (many approaches, mixing planets and concepts together, large samples), and I have a Virgo stellium (working with smaller, more exact concepts and positions). Both of these stelliums are in 10th house signs square the ascendant. You do have Moon-Uranus in Virgo, however, which I believe indicates your interest in statistical research (Mercury) via computer (Uranus). But large samples (Jupiter and Neptune aspect Mercury.) We both have Venus influencing Mercury (artistic ability with words and writing). I also have a Neptune sextile to Mercury. For both of us, this is probably the subject of astrology being expressed by Mercury. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Hi all, I've made further research about the zodiacs with a bit improved methods, and I'm sorry to say that the results point still to the tropical zodiac. One study was about the masculine and feminine signs: I simply studied which groups had predominance in masculine signs, which groups in turn in feminine signs. Here's some of the groups out of 130 who managed to get to the top-15 with having a lot of planets in masculine tropical signs. There were active people working in business and public relations: - top executives - PR people - producers - attorneys - magazine & newsletter writers - friendly & gregarious personalities. Then there were also sportsmen: - athletes - basketball players - baseball players. Some of the groups having a lot of planets in feminine tropical signs included scientists, philosophers and people who think about religious or spiritual issues: - humanists & philosophers - religious & philosophical writers - spiritual leaders - textbook & non-fiction writers - biologists - highly educated people (-long lived people - I include this group here too) Then there were people who might live a somewhat unstable life: - substance abusers - people with vulnerable constitutions - people moved a lot - expatriates - soldiers - combatants. Sidereally the qualities were naturally reversed. Probably the most pronounced feature with the groups having a lot of planets in sidereal masculine signs (Fire and Air) was sensitivity. There were: - people with vulnerable constitutions - substance abusers - nervous breakdown cases - people with unusual diets (mostly vegetarians) - humanists & philosophers - spiritual leaders. Then there were also artists: - poets - composers & arrangers - humor writers. And then a couple of groups of scientists: - biologists - researchers. In the sidereal feminine group (emphasis on Water and Earth) we'll find the same extroverted, social people that we encountered with masculine tropical signs: - friendly & gregarious personalities - PR people - bankers - attorneys - diplomats - biographers. There were also sportsmen: - athletes - football players - race drivers - aggressive personalities. I know that Therese says that introversion is in fact an archetypically masculine trait, but still... in my opinion the roles are a bit too much reversed on the sidereal zodiac. In any case one thing is clear: we cannot apply tropical interpretations on the sidereal signs. If we want to use sidereal signs, we have to adjust the interpretations accordingly. I wrote about the dignities already, but only when I studied the tropical Ascendant ruler in dignities, the difference came really - in fact astonishingly clear. Among the top-15 of the groups with the Asc ruler most often in its own sign were: - highly educated people - people with high IQs - child prodigies - diplomats - publishers & editors - playwrights - humanists & philosophers - private personalities - opera singers - diplomats - lottery winners - astrologers. Among the top-15 of the groups having the Asc ruler most often in its detriment were: - executed people - rapists - prisoners - Nazis - boxers & martial fighters. This is in fact quite scary and reminds me of the good/bad project Moses Sinegar III put up on the Future of Astrology forum, which Therese mentioned. Here is one techinque that would seem to reveal the 'dignity' of a person - but it works only tropically! I would have liked to see the sidereal zodiac to work better, but I cannot help it when the evidence would seem to show it otherwise. Today I've studied the tropical Ascendant ruler in houses, or in Octoscope houses to be exact. The results are really interesting. Octoscope is interesting, and the way traditional tropical rulerships play out is also interesting. In this way statistical reserach has become for me more rewarding than ever. Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Are there other studies, other than masculine and feminine signs? Can you share your other studies? Thanks, chrys333 In , " Sari M " <gerdapp wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've made further research about the zodiacs with a bit improved methods, > and I'm sorry to say that the results point still to the tropical zodiac. > > One study was about the masculine and feminine signs: I simply studied which > groups had predominance in masculine signs, which groups in turn in feminine > signs. Here's some of the groups out of 130 who managed to get to the top-15 > with having a lot of planets in masculine tropical signs. There were active > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 At 06:59 PM 2/7/09 -0000, Chrys333 wrote: >Are there other studies, other than masculine and feminine signs? >Can you share your other studies? >Thanks, -------------------------- Hi Chrys, Sari hasn't replied yet, so here is her web site with her research projects: http://koti.welho.com/jmetsovu/index.html Sari, the newly designed site is very attractive! Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Thanks, Therese! The site was a bit bigger at one moment, but I took away some of the studies because I was no longer satisfied with the methods. The site in general needs readjustment. But credits for the design go of course to my dear husband. There are no more studies that would specifically compare sidereal and tropical zodiacs. I made a study where I searched for groups that most often had the tropical Asc ruler in exaltation and fall, and it seemed that an exalted Asc ruler made a person to vibrate on a higher frequency which could also bring about certain unstableness and sensitivity; in contraty a fallen Asc ruler made a person more physical, robust, realistic and down-to-earth. But because this was a tropical study, it's not interesting in this context. Best, Sari - " Therese Hamilton " <eastwest Monday, February 09, 2009 6:16 AM Re: Comparing tropical/sidereal > At 06:59 PM 2/7/09 -0000, Chrys333 wrote: >>Are there other studies, other than masculine and feminine signs? >>Can you share your other studies? >>Thanks, > -------------------------- > > Hi Chrys, > > Sari hasn't replied yet, so here is her web site with her research > projects: > > http://koti.welho.com/jmetsovu/index.html > > Sari, the newly designed site is very attractive! > > Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Hi All, Being intrigued by Sari's recent studies of tropical and sidereal signs, and being a staunch user of the sidereal zodiac, I've started a series of small studies using ADB 4 data. I should say at the onset that most or all of the ADB categories are corrupt--that is, there are charts in each category that don't belong there. We discover this when we read the biographies linked to the charts. So, at least from the precise scientific point of view, small studies can only suggest directions for future research. My first study used the " Body: appearance gorgeous " category. There were 352 charts in this file with known ascendants. Because of the varied rising times of signs, I looked at each sign separately and noted the position of the ruler by sign. This small study produced results that supported some Jyotish interpretation concepts. Signs are important via the ‘back door' so to speak, rather than physically being in an exalted or home sign. That is, the highest totals for the planet ruling the ascendant supported other traditionally strong positions for planets. Below are the most significant sidereal results. **I hope, Sari, that you can perform the same study in the tropical zodiac for comparison?** Method: (1) I tabulated the ascendant lords for each sign in their zodiac signs. Since I've always found houses more important than signs, this gives only a rough picture of house position (sign as house). Studying houses is a more precise and advanced method of placing planets. Placements ran from zero ascedant lords in a sign to 8. (2) I noted the highest totals for each sign, and then noted if these totals aligned with one of the traditional strengths of planets. In the list below I've noted the total for each ascendant sign, and the highest totals for the ascendant lord in sign. - Libra (28) Venus in Libra (lst): 7 - Sag (31) Jupiter in Sag (1st): 6 Principle: A planet is strong in its own sign. Note that this is only for the ascendant or body. Aphorism: A benefic in its own sign on the ascendant produces the possibility of an attractive appearance. - Gemini (46) Mercury in Sagittarius (7th house): 8 Principle: A planet aspecting its own sign, especially the opposition, strengthens that house. In Jyotish detriments aren't used. Instead a planet opposing its own sign is said to be helpful. In this case this is so even though Mercury is said to be weakest in the 7th house. - Virgo (40) Mercury in Aquarius (6th house): 7 - Taurus (33) Venus in Gemini (2nd house): 7 Principle: The 6th is Mercury's natural house while the 2nd is Taurus' natural house. Planets in these two houses also trine the 10th, the most elevated house in the horoscope. Aphorism: A planet is strong in its own natural house measured from the starting house. - Scorpio (23) Mars in Leo (10th): 5 Principle: The 10th is the house in which Mars obtains ‘dig bala' or positional strength. Mars is exalted in Capricorn, and this is Capricorn's natural house. Leo is also a friendly sign for Mars. - Capricorn (24) Saturn in Leo (8th) : 7 This is an anomaly since Saturn and the Sun are enemies. It may be that somewhere in the old astrological literature there is a statement about Saturn being strong in the 8th. (Just a guess!) The remaining highest totals involve planets aspecting the ascendant: - Gemini (46) Mercury in Aquarius (9th): 7, trine asc - Leo: (28) Sun in Capricorn (6th): 7, quincunx asc, trine 10th - Virgo: (40) Mercury in Cancer (11th): 6, sextile asc These figures are much too small to have any possible statistical significance. (Statistics being a very precise science that involves significance levels.) However, to get a hint of the astrological significance of each total, multiply it times 12 (signs) to get the total signs needed for the average. Example: For Virgo, Mercury was in Aquarius 7 times: 7 x 12 = 84 (That is, we'd need 84 signs rather than 12 to average 7 placements per sign.) Or find the percentage of Virgo's highest totals: (Aquarius: 7; Cancer: 6) 13/40 = 32.5; In 32.5 percent of the total Virgo ascendants, Mercury is in either Cancer or Aquarius; Or: For an attractive appearance for Virgo rising, in about 1/3 of the time Mercury is in either Cancer or Aquarius (roughly 6th and 11th houses ) There is a suggestion in this study that houses can act as 'stand-ins' for a sign, as the 6th for Virgo (Mercury), the 10th for Capricorn (Mars) and the 2nd for Venus (Taurus). So, at least from the astrological point of view, these are possible trends to watch for. Of course, planetary aspects are of primary importance, houses of secondary importance, and sign placment of possibly least importance since a transiting planet remains in one sign for prolonged periods of time. Jyotish astrologers also know that navamsa signs are important keys to a planet's operation--more important than natal signs. Draft respectfully submitted, Therese Hamilton 9 February 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.