Guest guest Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 This is for anyone who still has doubts about the sidereal zodiac for timing. I saw these exact degree hits several months ago, and puzzled over them because at that time John McCain's 9:00 a.m. chart was believed to be correct, and his solar return looked much stronger than Obama's return for the same time period. SIDEREAL: 5 Sco 52 Inaugural Moon ----------------------- 5 Sco 40 Obama natal M.C. (12 min orb) 5 Sco 36 Biden Venus [conj asc] (16 min orb) 2 Cap 16 Inaugural M.C. (12:00 noon, time of offical change-over) ----------------------- 2 Cap 07 Obama natal Saturn [Cap asc lord] (9 min orb) ====================================================== TROPICAL: 29 Sco 45 Inaugural Moon ----------------------- 28 Sco 54 Obama natal M.C. (51 min orb) 28 Sco 33 Biden Venus (1 deg 12 min orb) 26 Cap 10 Inaugural M.C. ----------------------- 25 Cap 20 Obama natal Saturn (50 min orb) Precession has accumulated from the birth years to the inaugural date making the natal to inaugural contacts wider in the tropical zodiac. If Obama's 7:24 p.m. time of birth is correct, his sidereal solar return for this year gives the lie to the sidereal dictum that angular malefics generally signify defeat. This solar return has Saturn on the descendant square natal Moon on (equal) cusp 4, 6 degrees from the I.C. (Thus, Saturn is square the M.C./I.C. axis.) Natal Ketu is above the ascendant. Although a 7th cusp Saturn is a good position for Saturn in the Jyotish system [saturn is exalted in Libra], still Saturn is in Leo and squares natal Moon. McCain's last minute discovered birth certificate produced a solar return chart that didn't look hopeful. In this case (if the correct birth times had been available earlier) other methods were needed to correctly judge the election. Taken alone, Obama's momentous and history shattering victory doesn't seem clear in the solar return chart, although SR Jupiter trines the angular Saturn (6 deg orb). The Washingon, D.C. relocated SR is more dramatic with Uranus at the zenith, Pluto on cusp 7, and Mars-Moon on cusp 4. Natal Ketu is on the M.C., however. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 , Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > This is for anyone who still has doubts about the sidereal zodiac for > timing. REPLY: Ah, yes, the most truly amazing factor for me that has emerged from the Sidereal movement -- timing. Whether we use precession corrected tropical or the sidereal zodiac, timing is one of two valuable and significant discoveries --- the other being angularity. While astrologers over the eons have touted angularity as being quite important, only with precession-correction or sidereal practices have timing and angularity been shown to be such a dramatic tool as shown in solar returns and their derived charts. But, as for sign meanings, well those pale in comparison to planet meanings, angularity and timing of events. Until I see some solid and convincing sidereal versus tropical interpretive structure, I'll stick with the planets, timing and angularity. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 At 07:18 PM 1/21/09 -0000, Dave wrote: > , Therese wrote: >> >> This is for anyone who still has doubts about the sidereal zodiac for >> timing... --------------------------- > >REPLY: Ah, yes, the most truly amazing factor for me that has emerged >from the Sidereal movement -- timing. Whether we use precession >corrected tropical or the sidereal zodiac, timing is one of two >valuable and significant discoveries --- the other being angularity. > >While astrologers over the eons have touted angularity as being quite >important, only with precession-correction or sidereal practices have >timing and angularity been shown to be such a dramatic tool as shown >in solar returns and their derived charts. ---------------------------- One thing we can be sure of is that timing proves the existence of the sidereal framework. We may have difficulty at this time proving there are sidereal signs, but timing shows the truth of a fixed framework. Dave, have you tested major aspects to angular planets? Sometimes sidereal astrologers discuss these, sometimes not. Here's an example: The strongest angular planet in Obama's solar return for this year is Saturn in Leo on cusp 7. Whereas this might show increased responsibility, by itself does it indicate a resounding victory?? The only major aspects to the angles in this chart are: (1) A trine from the 6th house Sun to the M.C. (1 degree orb) (2) A trine from 11th house Jupiter to Saturn on cusp 7 (6 degree orb) If Obama's 7:24 birth time is accurate (and I still have questions about this time), these two aspects to the angles are the only strong positive notes in the chart in relation to angles. We do have transting Rahu (true node) in the degree of Obama's natal ascendant, but this configuration is in the solar return 12th house >[Dave wrote:] But, as for sign meanings, well those pale in comparison to planet >meanings, angularity and timing of events. [Therese:] I believe most astrologers would agree that planetary infuence is much more in evidence than sign meanings. The question still remains: Is it possible to isolate sign principles? Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 , Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: This is for anyone who still has doubts about the sidereal zodiac for timing... > --------------------------- REPLY: Back in the 70's and 80's when the political primaries stretched over several months, mostly one or two at a time, I used lunar returns for each politician's chart located at the primary state capitol. As I remember it, Saturn was often elevated or angular in the 10th or 1st house/angle for winners much of the time. Moon seemed appropriate, also --- just not as often. Jupiter, angular, didn't seem to help, although Neptune did on occasion. Then, the media took over, nominees were chosen at a convention and the primary system changed completely. I even remember in one instance where Mercury and Mars were at the IC of a chart and I told the wife that that candidate would have a cold and not make any speeches on the primary date. Of course it happened that way. I haven't done much with Lunar Returns for several years, but I used to consider them as being close to miraculous. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 >We do have transting Rahu (true node) in the degree of Obama's natal ascendant... So, this would mean that Ketu is where is Saturn is, at cusp seven? That sounds challenging. liberator_9 ________________________________ Therese Hamilton <eastwest Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:06:11 PM Re: Ianugural Math At 07:18 PM 1/21/09 -0000, Dave wrote: >, Therese wrote: >> >> This is for anyone who still has doubts about the sidereal zodiac for >> timing... ------------ --------- ------ > >REPLY: Ah, yes, the most truly amazing factor for me that has emerged >from the Sidereal movement -- timing. Whether we use precession >corrected tropical or the sidereal zodiac, timing is one of two >valuable and significant discoveries --- the other being angularity. > >While astrologers over the eons have touted angularity as being quite >important, only with precession-correcti on or sidereal practices have >timing and angularity been shown to be such a dramatic tool as shown >in solar returns and their derived charts. ------------ --------- ------- One thing we can be sure of is that timing proves the existence of the sidereal framework. We may have difficulty at this time proving there are sidereal signs, but timing shows the truth of a fixed framework. Dave, have you tested major aspects to angular planets? Sometimes sidereal astrologers discuss these, sometimes not. Here's an example: The strongest angular planet in Obama's solar return for this year is Saturn in Leo on cusp 7. Whereas this might show increased responsibility, by itself does it indicate a resounding victory?? The only major aspects to the angles in this chart are: (1) A trine from the 6th house Sun to the M.C. (1 degree orb) (2) A trine from 11th house Jupiter to Saturn on cusp 7 (6 degree orb) If Obama's 7:24 birth time is accurate (and I still have questions about this time), these two aspects to the angles are the only strong positive notes in the chart in relation to angles. We do have transting Rahu (true node) in the degree of Obama's natal ascendant, but this configuration is in the solar return 12th house >[Dave wrote:] But, as for sign meanings, well those pale in comparison to planet >meanings, angularity and timing of events. [Therese:] I believe most astrologers would agree that planetary infuence is much more in evidence than sign meanings. The question still remains: Is it possible to isolate sign principles? Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 At 10:47 AM 1/23/09 -0800, Stephen wrote: [Therese wrote:] >>We do have transting Rahu (true node) in the degree of Obama's natal >ascendant... > >So, this would mean that Ketu is where Saturn is, at cusp seven? That sounds challenging. ------------------- No, Ketu is on the NATAL 7th cusp, but Saturn is on the solar return 7th cusp. Ketu is with Mercury and the Sun in the solar return 6th house. If Obama's 7:24 p.m. time is correct, we can expect a 'loss' in the 7th. Of course this would be true since who has time for marriage when he's president of the United States? Perhaps Biden is also implicated here in some way, since he's Obama's presidential partner. Also the Moon which is squared by Saturn in the return chart rules Obama's 7th house. How can he not neglect personal relationships and the home with presidential duties? And perhaps there will be some special circumstance or illlness for Biden. We'll have to wait and see. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I recall that Biden had a solar return that didn't look very good. ....Bettina _____ On Behalf Of Therese Hamilton Friday, January 23, 2009 12:00 PM Re: Ianugural Math At 10:47 AM 1/23/09 -0800, Stephen wrote: [Therese wrote:] >>We do have transting Rahu (true node) in the degree of Obama's natal >ascendant... > >So, this would mean that Ketu is where Saturn is, at cusp seven? That sounds challenging. ------------------- No, Ketu is on the NATAL 7th cusp, but Saturn is on the solar return 7th cusp. Ketu is with Mercury and the Sun in the solar return 6th house. If Obama's 7:24 p.m. time is correct, we can expect a 'loss' in the 7th. Of course this would be true since who has time for marriage when he's president of the United States? Perhaps Biden is also implicated here in some way, since he's Obama's presidential partner. Also the Moon which is squared by Saturn in the return chart rules Obama's 7th house. How can he not neglect personal relationships and the home with presidential duties? And perhaps there will be some special circumstance or illlness for Biden. We'll have to wait and see. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 At 01:07 PM 1/23/09 -0700, Bettina wrote: >I recall that Biden had a solar return that didn't look very good. ----------------------------- Right, which is one reason I didn't see a strong winning picture for him. His natal 12th house Mars is on the solar return ascendant, and transiting Mars is on the SR ascendant. Ketu is just at the zenith while Neptune is at the I.C. He did have transiting Saturn/Uranus on the M.C./I.C. axis which, like Obama's Saturn on the 7th cusp, can point to a great deal of responsibility. Mars is Biden's natal ascendant lord and also lord of 6th. Will he face illness or stress this year? Or does emphasis on a 12th house Mars simply point to lots of foreign travel? Maria J. Mateus (M.A. Kepler College) illustrated our dilemma beautifully in The Autumn 2008 issue of THE TRADITION (on-line): " There is currently no consistency of method in the interpretation of the astrological language...Astrologers basically string together words and create delineations from those arbitrarily grouped words. For example, if McCain has transiting Jupiter approaching a sextile to Saturn, one astrologer may decide that this means that he **will expand his workload** and conclude that he will win the election, while another may interpret this transit to mean that **he will experience obstructions to his aspirations** and lose. In the first case, the Jupiter influence is experienced as a verb over an existing Saturn object, while in the second, Saturn is experienced as the verbal force acting upon the Jupiter object. " (page 8) www.thetraditionjournal.com (Asterisks here replace italics in the text.) Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 If Biden has a recurrance with his problems with his brain, Gods forbid, might that be good for Hillary? She could replace Biden leaving her that much closer to the oval office. liberator_9 ________________________________ Therese Hamilton <eastwest Friday, January 23, 2009 12:59:37 PM Re: Ianugural Math At 10:47 AM 1/23/09 -0800, Stephen wrote: [Therese wrote:] >>We do have transting Rahu (true node) in the degree of Obama's natal >ascendant.. . > >So, this would mean that Ketu is where Saturn is, at cusp seven? That sounds challenging. ------------ ------- No, Ketu is on the NATAL 7th cusp, but Saturn is on the solar return 7th cusp. Ketu is with Mercury and the Sun in the solar return 6th house. If Obama's 7:24 p.m. time is correct, we can expect a 'loss' in the 7th. Of course this would be true since who has time for marriage when he's president of the United States? Perhaps Biden is also implicated here in some way, since he's Obama's presidential partner. Also the Moon which is squared by Saturn in the return chart rules Obama's 7th house. How can he not neglect personal relationships and the home with presidential duties? And perhaps there will be some special circumstance or illlness for Biden. We'll have to wait and see. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Should he become ill, or debilitated, what is the procedure for him being head of the Senate, or who will succeed the President if the President dies? Does anyone know? Thanks, chrys333 In , Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > At 01:07 PM 1/23/09 -0700, Bettina wrote: > >I recall that Biden had a solar return that didn't look very good. > ----------------------------- > > Right, which is one reason I didn't see a strong winning picture for him. > His natal 12th house Mars is on the solar return ascendant, and transiting > Mars is on the SR ascendant. Ketu is just at the zenith while Neptune is at > the I.C. He did have transiting Saturn/Uranus on the M.C./I.C. axis which, > like Obama's Saturn on the 7th cusp, can point to a great deal of > responsibility. > > Mars is Biden's natal ascendant lord and also lord of 6th. Will he face > illness or stress this year? Or does emphasis on a 12th house Mars simply > point to lotsat he will win the election, while another may interpret > this transit to mean that **he will experience obstructions to his > aspirations** and lose. > > In the first case, the Jupiter influence is experienced as a verb over an > existing Saturn object, while in the second, Saturn is experienced as the > verbal force acting upon the Jupiter object. " (page 8) > www.thetraditionjournal.com > (Asterisks here replace italics in the text.) > > Therese > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 The speaker of the house is next in line after the VP. That would be Nancy Pelosi. ....Bettina _____ On Behalf Of chrys3333 Saturday, January 24, 2009 7:57 PM Re: Ianugural Math Should he become ill, or debilitated, what is the procedure for him being head of the Senate, or who will succeed the President if the President dies? Does anyone know? Thanks, chrys333 In @ <%40> , Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: > > At 01:07 PM 1/23/09 -0700, Bettina wrote: > >I recall that Biden had a solar return that didn't look very good. > ----------------------------- > > Right, which is one reason I didn't see a strong winning picture for him. > His natal 12th house Mars is on the solar return ascendant, and transiting > Mars is on the SR ascendant. Ketu is just at the zenith while Neptune is at > the I.C. He did have transiting Saturn/Uranus on the M.C./I.C. axis which, > like Obama's Saturn on the 7th cusp, can point to a great deal of > responsibility. > > Mars is Biden's natal ascendant lord and also lord of 6th. Will he face > illness or stress this year? Or does emphasis on a 12th house Mars simply > point to lotsat he will win the election, while another may interpret > this transit to mean that **he will experience obstructions to his > aspirations** and lose. > > In the first case, the Jupiter influence is experienced as a verb over an > existing Saturn object, while in the second, Saturn is experienced as the > verbal force acting upon the Jupiter object. " (page 8) > www.thetraditionjournal.com > (Asterisks here replace italics in the text.) > > Therese > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Then, Biden better stay healthy. In L.V.X., chrys333 In , " Bettina " <chiria wrote: > > The speaker of the house is next in line after the VP. That would be Nancy > Pelosi. > > > ...Bettina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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