Article on McCain's Solar Returns

[Guest guest]

Hello Therese,

 

Here is a message I sent to another list. If this chart has appeal I

would be interested in any comments on the Pluto/ Moon opposition on the

MC/IC axis.

 

 

Ron

 

 

*****

The latest time for J.McCain (11.00 am) gives a Libra ascendant. A Libra

ascendant is quite fitting for the following reasons.

 

1.Mars should usually be prominent for a high ranking military person.

Mars has neecha bhanga raj yoga. This does not happen for a Virgo

ascendant. Mars is close to the MC and gets dig bala for the Libra

ascendant.

 

2. The sambandha between Ve and Sa forms a Raj yoga helpful for

political advancement.

 

3. The choice for a Libra ascendant is helped by the fact that Libra

people often show an interest in politics. This is because Saturn, a

friend of Ascendant lord Venus rules the 4H( masses) and 5H of politics

and is exalted in the Ascendant.

 

I was not happy with the 11am time which gives an ascendant of 24Libra.

I moved the time to approx. 10am (9-10 Libra). This is half way between

the two reported times. Libra ascendant starts at about 9.20am

I believe this time(10am) is closer to the correct ascendant due to---

 

1. In a recent discussion on this list I stated that high ranking

politicians often have planets in the 12H or close to the 12Cusp. (9-10

deg Libra moves Mercury to the 12Cusp)

 

2. Pluto conjunct MC --fame or notoriety

 

3. The Rahu /Ketu axis is now afflicting the 3H (equal cusp). Rahu in 3H

can give courage but near the cusp can affect the vitality. In the Ra/Ve

period McCain was severely injured and suffered imprisonment. This was

a low period in his life.

Rahu’s dispositor Jupiter is conjunct bandanha saham(imprisonment) if

using the one sign addition. B. saham is conjunct ascendant without the

one sign addition.

Jupiter aspects the 8H of death like experiences and 6H (injuries).

Rahu’s affliction of the 7H is also significant.

It would be useful to have more data about McCain’s father and younger

brother and his relationship with them.

 

4.The divisional charts fit quite well with 9+ Libra. A Capricorn D10

asc fits well with his career.

 

5. Sepharial's fixed degrees. 10th degree Libra ie 9-10 deg.

" A prison door, fitted with iron spikes, and framed with iron girders "

It indicates a person of vicious tendencies, which will lead him into

dangers of the gravest kind. He will suffer restraint or imprisonment,

or will lead a life of forced seclusion. He will not escape open

critism, and misfortune will press heavily upon him:yet even the caged

bird will sing, and to every prison house there is a way out. It is a

degree of SECLUSION.

From McCain's biography, it is known that he endured a period of

forced seclusion etc .Is he vicious?

 

Another interesting point about this chart is that 10th lord Mo is in

Nigala (fetters) drekkana.

 

 

 

 

Therese Hamilton wrote:

> Hi Everyone,

>

> For anyone looking at election possibilites, my NCGR Memberletter article

> on McCain's solar returns is posted here: C:\AAsunrise\LostZodiac.htm

>

> I used a 9:09 a.m. birth time for reasons discussed in the article. When

> this article was submitted to Membeletter, we didn't have Obama's time as

> noted on the birth certificate or the statement by McCain's mother that he

> was born at 11:00 a.m. (Though some are questioning the validity of the the

> Obama certificate posted on the internet, and McCain's mother supposedly

> gave 9:00 a.m. at an earlier date.)

>

> I still see McCain's chances as superior to Obama's with his new time of 7:24.

>

> Comments on Obama's and McCain's charts are welcome!

>

> Therese

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 05:53 PM 6/29/08 +1000, Ron Day wrote:

>>Here is a message I sent to another list. If this chart has appeal I

>would be interested in any comments on the Pluto/ Moon opposition on the

>MC/IC axis.

 

>The latest time for J.McCain (11.00 am) gives a Libra ascendant. A Libra

>ascendant is quite fitting for the following reasons.

>

>1.Mars should usually be prominent for a high ranking military person.

>Mars has neecha bhanga raj yoga. This does not happen for a Virgo

>ascendant. Mars is close to the MC and gets dig bala for the Libra

>ascendant.

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your reply. Your comment on the position of Mars is an example

of what we believe might be in a horoscope of a military career person. I

thought I'd check this out. ADB 4 has 652 people who had either a military

career or military service. Of these 652 only 23 had Mars at the top of the

chart square the ascendant within 7 degrees. That is going to be far below

chance. 25 had Mars conjunct the M.C. in equal houses 9 or 10. (7 degree orb)

 

Then I asked for only those who had a military career. There were 99 in

that group. Of the 99 only 4 (four) had Mars at the top of the chart square

the ascendant within 7 degrees. This is also going to be below chance

level. But 9 had Mars conjunct the M.C. which is within range of chance

expectancy.

 

>2. The sambandha between Ve and Sa forms a Raj yoga helpful for

>political advancement.

>

>3. The choice for a Libra ascendant is helped by the fact that Libra

>people often show an interest in politics. This is because Saturn, a

>friend of Ascendant lord Venus rules the 4H( masses) and 5H of politics

>and is exalted in the Ascendant.

 

I would disagree that the 4th rules the masses. We've seen some evidence in

conversations on this forum that it may be the 12th. The 4th is usually

said to rule that which is 'under the earth' or to have to do with private

concerns. Althugh some recent Jyotish books link the 5th to politics, this

isn't a traditional association, and it's an association I question.

 

Tropical astrology wouldn't place politics in the 5th. I will agree,

however, that if the 5th lord is involved in a raja yoga, this indicates

general success which can include the political arena. But (from my point

of view) it's because the 5th lord is a benefic for the chart.

 

With a 9:00 a.m. chart McCain is currently running the combination of

Saturn and Jupiter, which form a powerful raja yoga for the chart, Saturn

being 5th lord in its own sign, and Jupiter ruling an angle. With a 9:09

a.m. time, Saturn is in a cuspal degree which Systems Approach sees as very

significant.

 

The problem I see with a Libra ascendant is that the closest aspect to

Venus is Saturn. From long practice I've seen planets that closely aspect

the ascendant lord play an important part in the life. Whatever else Saturn

may rule, it's not a planet associated with the military.

 

>I was not happy with the 11am time which gives an ascendant of 24Libra.

>I moved the time to approx. 10am (9-10 Libra). This is half way between

>the two reported times. Libra ascendant starts at about 9.20am

>I believe this time(10am) is closer to the correct ascendant due to---

 

>1. In a recent discussion on this list I stated that high ranking

>politicians often have planets in the 12H or close to the 12Cusp. (9-10

>deg Libra moves Mercury to the 12Cusp)

 

Yes, it would seem that the 12th may be important for politicians. Venus is

close to the 12th cusp for 9:09 (2 degrees). And Venus is the 9th lord. So

both times have a planet near the 12th cusp.

 

Various astrologers can find good reasons why both a 9:00 a.m. time and an

11:00 a.m. time or your adjusted time for an ascendant degree of 9-10 Libra

can work. It's too bad that there is only one copy of each birth chart, so

it's never possible to compare one chart with others from the past.

 

Astrology is at this time is a very inexact science. Or more accurately, a

'non-science.' This is why we've seen several Vedic predictions for Hillary

as the next president, and an assortment of opinions for either Obama or

McCain (Mostly obama)

 

Sepharial--Are you using tropical degrees with a sidereal chart?

 

Thanks again for your reply, Ron.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hello Therese,

 

>I would disagree that the 4th rules the masses. We've seen some

evidence in conversations on this forum that it may be the 12th. The 4th

is usually

said to rule that which is 'under the earth' or to have to do with

private concerns. <

 

I think the rationale for this is that Mo rules 4H in the natural zodiac

and the Mo is significator for public/masses.

 

 

>With a 9:00 a.m. chart McCain is currently running the combination of

Saturn and Jupiter, which form a powerful raja yoga for the chart, Saturn

being 5th lord in its own sign, and Jupiter ruling an angle. With a 9:09

a.m. time, Saturn is in a cuspal degree which Systems Approach sees as very

significant.<

 

For a Virgo ascendant, Venus suffers because of—

 

1. Late degree in mitra avasta.

2. 12H placement—not always bad for Ve though.

3. It is closely aspected by a malefic Sa(especially in SA approach

since the MT sign of Sa is in 6H.

 

Venus is not happy and it rules the 2H of family for Virgo.

For a Libra ascendant, Sa is a benefic(yogakaraka) so the aspect to Ve

is more positive. This gives Ve a lot more life especially since it’s in

a raj yoga.

I don’t think McCain would be here today with a Virgo ascendant.

 

 

>The problem I see with a Libra ascendant is that the closest aspect to

Venus is Saturn. From long practice I've seen planets that closely

aspect the ascendant lord play an important part in the life. Whatever

else Saturn may rule, it's not a planet associated with the military. <

 

It’s a planet associated with prisons and imprisonment was a major event

in his life.

 

 

>Astrology is at this time is a very inexact science. Or more

accurately, a 'non-science.' This is why we've seen several Vedic

predictions for Hillary as the next president, and an assortment of

opinions for either Obama or McCain (Mostly obama)<

 

It is more inexact when the birth data is dubious.

 

 

>Sepharial--Are you using tropical degrees with a sidereal chart?<

 

I find Sepharial generally fits better with the sidereal zodiac and

Charubel fits with the tropical zodiac.

 

 

 

Ron

[Guest guest]

At 02:15 PM 6/30/08 +1000, Ron Day wrote:

>

>I think the rationale for [the 4th ruling the masses]is that Mo rules 4H

in the natural zodiac and the Mo is significator for public/masses.

 

Deborah Houlding in TEMPLES OF THE SKY has done a great job showing that

this kind of transfer of symbolism isn't correct, at least in the

historical view.

 

>For a Virgo ascendant, Venus suffers because of—

 

>1. Late degree in mitra avasta.

 

But if Venus is the ascendant lord, then we have a very weak ascendant. So

either way Venus is in a poor zodiacal placement.

 

>2. 12H placement—not always bad for Ve though.

 

Then its placement in the 12th doesn't really hurt Venus.

 

>3. It is closely aspected by a malefic Sa(especially in SA approach

>since the MT sign of Sa is in 6H.

 

Systems Approach is one system. I'm not sure how workable the moola trikona

doctrine is. We do know that for a Virgo ascendant Saturn is 5th lord.

Saturn is with the part of fortune for the Virgo ascendant. Saturn is also

6th lord, which is why I don't think McCain will be home free as long as

the Uranus-Saturn opposition is in effect.

 

>[saturn is] a planet associated with prisons and imprisonment was a major

event

>in his life.

 

I don't think the symbolism works that way. Aspects to the ascendant lord

show up in a person's psychology. McCain became a POW when Pluto and Uranus

transited his Venus. So that is good enough reason to suspect unfortunate

events with the current Uranus-Saturn transit to that same Venus. However,

this time it's Saturn on Venus rather than Uranus, and Saturn is 5th lord

for both Virgo and Libra. Uranus is a malific lord for Virgo ascendant, but

a benefic for Libra. (If the outer planets are considered as house lords.)

 

>I find Sepharial generally fits better with the sidereal zodiac and

>Charubel fits with the tropical zodiac.

 

Interesting...but Sepharial's tropical degree for my Moon fits perfectly in

the tropical zodiac. I have a note in the text that the meanings seem to

have shifted about half a degree, which would mean they are fixed degrees.

As usual in degree books, I've noted the sidereal conversion beside the

tropical degrees. So 3 Scorpio is 11 Libra for Sepharial. Then there's

Richard Houck who swore that Kozminsky's tropical degrees were really

sidereal. Manik Jain copied K's book without giving K credit.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hi Therese and Ron,

 

Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: At

02:15 PM 6/30/08 +1000, Ron Day wrote:

>

>I think the rationale for [the 4th ruling the masses]is that Mo rules 4H

in the natural zodiac and the Mo is significator for public/masses.

 

Deborah Houlding in TEMPLES OF THE SKY has done a great job showing that

this kind of transfer of symbolism isn't correct, at least in the

historical view.

 

 

 

Well that is the question -- how should be evaluate a chart, based on

history/convention or evidence? I applaud you for taking the time to look into

the correlation of Mars in the 10th house with military careers. Regardless of

whatever deductive associations one might have with Mars, the military and the

10th house, it's important to give proper consideration to an empirical study of

the question. There are limits to the data of course, and for that reason, one

doesn't want to go overboard with it. Certainly, your efforts give me pause

for jumping too eagerly into the Libra rising chart for McCain.

 

I wouldn't pay undue attention to history if it isn't confirmed by evidence.

It's harder to operationalize perhaps, although one might examine correlations

between the 4th house and its lord in the charts of politicians.

It's interesting how so many of our assertions as astrologers never are -- and

never can be -- tested against evidence in a systematic way. It takes too long

and there are always questions about data. We just have to take things on faith

and go with it.

 

As Dr Phil might say to astrologers collectively, " how's that working for ya? "

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 11:55 AM 6/30/08 -0700, Chris wrote:

>Hi Therese and Ron,

>(...)

>Well that is the question -- how should be evaluate a chart, based on

history/convention or evidence?

 

Hi Chris,

 

It seems to me that this is a no-brainer. Today with our computers and data

sets we have to go with the evidence and empirical data. It's rather

amazing that as short a time as 25 years ago astrologers were computing

their charts by hand, which meant they had to work with a very limited

number of charts to come up with their conclusions. Psychological astrology

was born in the age of no computers, so nothing really had to be tested.

 

>...Certainly, your efforts give me pause for jumping too eagerly into the

Libra rising chart for McCain...

 

Studying these charts a little more, I can see a number of reasons why an

11:00 a.m. chart for McCain doesn't work very well. Jupiter is in the 2nd

house (near the 2nd equal cusp), and its dispositor Mars is in the 10th,

and conjunct the M.C. This configuration would point to either a fine

singing voice, or a career dealing with resources--business. (Of course

that's another hypothesis that would have to be tested, though I've noted a

Jupiter relationship to 2nd for vocalists.)

 

Also the 11:00 a.m. chart has a stellium in the 11th (using the equal cusp

as the center of the house), and a political career didn't show up as an

11th house career in earlier discussions on this forum. Then we have Saturn

on the 5th cusp, and McCain has a number of children. In the navamsa Moon

is in Aquarius in the 10th. There's no way that describes either a military

or political career. So, no, personally I don't see the 11:00 a.m. time as

fitting McCain's life.

 

Should McCain pull off the presidency, he's currently running Saturn's

dasa, and in the 9:09 navamsa chart Saturn is with Rahu in the 10th in

Gemini, the 10th natal sign. Most of McCain's political career has been in

Saturn's dasa, though it began under Jupiter.

 

Chris wrote:

>It's interesting how so many of our assertions as astrologers never are --

and never can be -- tested against evidence in a systematic way. It takes

too long and there are always questions about data. We just have to take

things on faith and go with it.

 

[Therese:] This is why there's definitely an astrological correlation today

between astrology, psychology, music and art. So many astrologers are

musicians, artists, or writers, and almost all western astrologers use

psychology in their work. We don't see physicists or biologists who

practice astrology! In India many astrologers are retired from government

service, and take up astrology as a second occupation in their later years.

This type of astrology is more predictive, and would show a different

astrological profile.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hi Therese

 

Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote: At

11:55 AM 6/30/08 -0700, Chris wrote:

>Hi Therese and Ron,

>(...)

>Well that is the question -- how should be evaluate a chart, based on

history/convention or evidence?

 

Hi Chris,

 

It seems to me that this is a no-brainer. Today with our computers and data

sets we have to go with the evidence and empirical data. It's rather

amazing that as short a time as 25 years ago astrologers were computing

their charts by hand, which meant they had to work with a very limited

number of charts to come up with their conclusions. Psychological astrology

was born in the age of no computers, so nothing really had to be tested.

 

 

 

That's a great point I hadn't thought of before. In addition, the nature of

psychological astrology has always been somewhat tougher to test due to problems

of operationalization of variables. Still, that didn't prevent early

statistical testing of psychological notions such as introversion/extroversion.

 

And yet I wonder how compelling the evidence might be given some of the possible

problems with the ADB database. The chance that it's not a reliable database

allows astrologers to continue to associate Mars in the 10th house with military

careers without fear of contradiction. That's the interesting thing to me: at

what point does scientific claims win out over astrological tradition? Clearly,

it won't be the same for everyone since opinions about the salience of

statistical studies in astrology vary widely. It would be interesting to hear

from other members on this question. While I am fairly sympathetic to

scientific claims in general, I know that I always allow for the possibility of

faulty data to cancel certain claims. That may in fact be the case here, so I

am not prepared to completely abandon the notion that Mars in the 10th might

have something to with a Martian career. Then I have to ask myself: under what

circumstances would I stop making that traditional

connection? Probably the study would need to be replicated a few times using

different databases.

 

 

 

 

 

>...Certainly, your efforts give me pause for jumping too eagerly into the

Libra rising chart for McCain...

 

Studying these charts a little more, I can see a number of reasons why an

11:00 a.m. chart for McCain doesn't work very well. Jupiter is in the 2nd

house (near the 2nd equal cusp), and its dispositor Mars is in the 10th,

and conjunct the M.C. This configuration would point to either a fine

singing voice, or a career dealing with resources--business. (Of course

that's another hypothesis that would have to be tested, though I've noted a

Jupiter relationship to 2nd for vocalists.)

 

Also the 11:00 a.m. chart has a stellium in the 11th (using the equal cusp

as the center of the house), and a political career didn't show up as an

11th house career in earlier discussions on this forum. Then we have Saturn

on the 5th cusp, and McCain has a number of children. In the navamsa Moon

is in Aquarius in the 10th. There's no way that describes either a military

or political career. So, no, personally I don't see the 11:00 a.m. time as

fitting McCain's life.

 

 

 

 

Some good points. I'm still undecided. The children question is interesting

given Saturn's placement in the 5th in the 11 am chart. And yet the 11th house

stellium allows for children, thus potentially overriding the Saturn effect.

Plus he didn't have his own children until later in life so that might account

for Saturn's delaying influence.

 

 

 

 

 

Should McCain pull off the presidency, he's currently running Saturn's

dasa, and in the 9:09 navamsa chart Saturn is with Rahu in the 10th in

Gemini, the 10th natal sign. Most of McCain's political career has been in

Saturn's dasa, though it began under Jupiter.

 

Chris wrote:

>It's interesting how so many of our assertions as astrologers never are --

and never can be -- tested against evidence in a systematic way. It takes

too long and there are always questions about data. We just have to take

things on faith and go with it.

 

[Therese:] This is why there's definitely an astrological correlation today

between astrology, psychology, music and art. So many astrologers are

musicians, artists, or writers, and almost all western astrologers use

psychology in their work. We don't see physicists or biologists who

practice astrology! In India many astrologers are retired from government

service, and take up astrology as a second occupation in their later years.

This type of astrology is more predictive, and would show a different

astrological profile.

 

 

 

Could be. And yet even with the more mathematically inclined Indians, there

hasn't been much eagerness for proper testing. I wonder if the weighty presence

of the traditions of Jyotish seems to have trumped the scientific standards used

in the day jobs (accountants, engineers, doctors, etc) of many Indian

astrologers.

 

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

Therese

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 09:26 AM 7/2/08 -0700, Chris wrote:

>

>[Therese wrote:] It's rather

> amazing that as short a time as 25 years ago astrologers were computing

> their charts by hand, which meant they had to work with a very limited

> number of charts to come up with their conclusions. Psychological astrology

> was born in the age of no computers, so nothing really had to be tested.

 

>[Chris wrote:] That's a great point I hadn't thought of before. In

addition, the nature of psychological astrology has always been somewhat

tougher to test due to problems of operationalization of variables. Still,

that didn't prevent early statistical testing of psychological notions such

as introversion/extroversion.

 

When Geoffrey Dean gave this test to astrologers, astrologers only

performed at chance level. I still have all of those charts, but never

found the time to study them. Geoffrey kept the data key secret, but a now

deceased person sent the key to me many years ago. This would be a great

project to discuss on the internet sometime.

 

>[Chris wrote:] And yet I wonder how compelling the evidence might be given

some of the possible problems with the ADB database. The chance that it's

not a reliable database allows astrologers to continue to associate Mars in

the 10th house with military careers without fear of contradiction.

 

The data sets aren't the least bit scientific given that the data comes

from numerous souces depending on who sent in the data. Yet, if there are

biographical notes letting us know that X number of people had military

careers, a useful study could be built around that data. But the study

would never satisfy those with a strictly scientific outlook.

 

>[Chris wrote:] That's the interesting thing to me: at what point does

scientific claims win out over astrological tradition?

 

I think astrological tradition can sometimes be 'right on' and sometimes

way off. This is why Kepler College spends so much time on astrological

history.

 

>...so I am not prepared to completely abandon the notion that Mars in the

10th might have something to with a Martian career.

 

It would be interesting to call up all the ADB charts with Mars conjunct

the M.C. and (separately) Mars in 9th-10th square the ascendant.

 

>...Then I have to ask myself: under what circumstances would I stop making

that traditional connection? Probably the study would need to be

replicated a few times using different databases.

 

Yes, replication is always necessary, and we probably won't be seeing that

any time soon. One way to replicate with ADB is to initially split the

sample into two parts and test each one separately.

 

>...The children question is interesting given Saturn's placement in the

5th in the 11 am chart. And yet the 11th house stellium allows for

children, thus potentially overriding the Saturn effect. Plus he didn't

have his own children until later in life so that might account for

Saturn's delaying influence.

 

Right, and I don't know anyone who has done an actual study of 5th house

planets in relation to children or the circumstances surrounding children.

 

>...And yet even with the more mathematically inclined Indians, there

hasn't been much eagerness for proper testing. I wonder if the weighty

presence of the traditions of Jyotish seems to have trumped the scientific

standards used in the day jobs (accountants, engineers, doctors, etc) of

many Indian astrologers.

 

It seems so. Tradition is very, very strong in India--though K.N. Rao has

attempted different kinds of research.

 

Therese