A statistical study...

[Guest guest]

At 08:59 AM 4/26/08 +0300, Sari wrote:

>Hi folks,

>

>I've made a statistical study using control groups and effect sizes about

>the dignities of the house cusps comparing the tropical and sidereal

>zodiacs, and angularity of planets using different house systems (both

>quadrant and equal systems). That study would seem to give evindence for the

>sidereal zodiac and quadrant houses. It can be found on my site

>http://koti.welho.com/jmetsovu/criminal_perpetrators.htm . There's several

>almost symmetrical visual diagrams that show the results.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Sari, you have put a prodigious amount of work into this project. How many

astrologers could do the same? Even one?? Everything is beautifully laid

out and easy for astrologers to understand. Before I comment further, I

have two technical questions:

 

(1) By 'detriment' do you mean the signs opposite the signs of planetary

ownernersip, as Mars in Libra, for example? Did you not consider planets in

exaltation and fall? (It would have been good to list the planetary

positions you were using at the beginning of the article.)

 

(2) When you tested equal houses, were you testing the western concept of

equal with angular houses only on one side of the cusp?

 

I'm following the discussion on FoA, but I'm not going to join in there.

Thanks for the Gaquelin references. I printed out the first article. I

don't know why Ray thinks he knows more about statistics than Geoffrey

Dean. I think he's mentioned in the past that he has no formal training in

statistics. He sits there on his little island criticizing everyone else.

(I no longer have enough memory of my statistical training to critique

statistical approaches to research.)

 

Ray's question about 'why test tropical' is quite meaningless.

 

You might want to try to connect with Dr. Suitbert Ertel in Germany. He

might have useful suggestions for further research, and could critique your

approach. If he has the time and interest, he could be very helpful.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hi Therese and thank you for your feedback.

 

You wrote:

 

> (1) By 'detriment' do you mean the signs opposite the signs of planetary

> ownernersip, as Mars in Libra, for example?

 

Sari:

 

Yes, that's what I mean.

 

You wrote:

 

Did you not consider planets in

> exaltation and fall? (It would have been good to list the planetary

> positions you were using at the beginning of the article.)

 

Sari:

 

I've studied them also separately, but it has been harder to find the common

theme in exaltations and falls than domiciles (planet in its own traditional

signs) and detriments (planet opposite to its own signs). Exaltations and

falls give also usually a bit weaker effects and the results are not as

symmetrical than with domiciles and detriments. But now after studying

systematically a several groups, I think I've got some kind of grasp of the

idea behind them.

 

It seems that sidereal domiciles and detriments signify simply strength and

how well the planet expresses its natural qualities. It has *nothing* to do

with " dignity " as such so that spiritually evolved people (whatever that

means) would have more planets in their own signs, and criminals etc. would

have more planets in their detriments - this is something that tropical

traditional astrologers sometimes seem to imply, but it's not true, at least

sidereally, and I don't think that it works tropically either. I've studied

for example 249 Western priests (mostly Catholic) and they have Mercury

quite often in detriment (in Sagittarius and Pisces) and less often in its

domicile (Gemini and Virgo). The same goes with 651 people in art and

fashion. In both groups rational thinking is not a commanding feature, but

they manifest more imagination and intuition. I'll probably publish a

separate article about these studies.

 

But exaltations and falls tell a different thing. I think they tell about

how much a person values something. If you have a planet in exaltation, you

give a high value to the thing that planet represents. If you have a planet

in fall, you don't value the things signified by that planet very high.

There's nothing good or bad in that, because every planet has its virtues

and vices. For example 1846 gay men had Venus in fall more often than usual

and in exaltation less often than usual. The same goes with 85 rapistis. I'm

not comparing those two groups in any other way, but a very very simplified

explanation is that neither of those groups value female sexuality very

high.

 

You wrote:

 

> (2) When you tested equal houses, were you testing the western concept of

> equal with angular houses only on one side of the cusp?

 

Sari:

 

Yes I was. I can do a separate study about Vehlow houses for you and put it

in the files of this list in PDF.

 

You wrote:

 

> You might want to try to connect with Dr. Suitbert Ertel in Germany. He

> might have useful suggestions for further research, and could critique

> your

> approach. If he has the time and interest, he could be very helpful.

 

Sari:

 

Thank you for the hint. Maybe I'll contact him.

 

Best, Sari

[Guest guest]

At 09:13 AM 4/27/08 +0300, Sari wrote:

 

>It seems that sidereal domiciles and detriments signify simply strength and

>how well the planet expresses its natural qualities. It has *nothing* to do

>with " dignity " as such so that spiritually evolved people (whatever that

>means) would have more planets in their own signs, and criminals etc. would

>have more planets in their detriments - this is something that tropical

>traditional astrologers sometimes seem to imply, but it's not true...

 

Yes, I've found that also to be true, that a well placed planet by sign

simply indicates that the planet is strong, acting like itself, which can

be good or bad depending on the planet and where it is in the horoscope.

 

May I ask what programs you are using to create those helpful graphs, and

uploading your studies to the computer? Does the same program produce those

circular graphs where you posted links on the FoA list?

 

>sidereally, and I don't think that it works tropically either. I've studied

>for example 249 Western priests (mostly Catholic) and they have Mercury

>quite often in detriment (in Sagittarius and Pisces) and less often in its

>domicile (Gemini and Virgo). The same goes with 651 people in art and

>fashion. In both groups rational thinking is not a commanding feature, but

>they manifest more imagination and intuition. I'll probably publish a

>separate article about these studies.

 

That would be helpful and very interesting!

 

> I can do a separate study about Vehlow [equal--cusp at center] houses for

you and put it

>in the files of this list in PDF.

 

Thank you for that file. I hope others have taken the time to study your

graphs. From these studies on criminals/rapists it's interesting that:

 

(1) Whole sign house produce relatively flat results.

 

(2) The various equal houses don't produce results as clear as quadrant

houses, specifically Alcabitius.

 

(3) Compared to sidereal positions, the tropical patters are flatter

without the higher peaks of the sidereal. (Of course this being a sidereal

forum, this is what members would expect!)

 

It's interesting though, that your study emphasized angular houses for Mars

whereas the Gauquelin studies emphasized cadent sectors. This might mean

that for athletes Mars energy is somehow productively channeled whereas for

rapists Mars energy is out of control.

 

Somewhere you wrote in one of your studies that there was a sharp division

at the house cusps. Placidus isolates the planetary hours that were so much

used by the ancients. So a break at a Placidus cusp means the beginning of

a new planetary hour. This is why K.S. Krishnamurti used Placidus for his

horary questions. He placed importance on planetary hours and exact timing.

 

Also a sharp division at the horizon indicates that the day/night division

of the diurnal circle is important. This also goes back to Hellenistic and

Classical astrology.

 

I have to take more time to study your study and graphs. For today I'm

leaving it on my computer screen.

 

Thanks, Sari, for your efforts. Perhaps studies like these will be the new

trend in astrology.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Sari, another question: Did you have to compute new databases (for

criminals) for each house system you tested in ADB?

 

Thanks,

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hi Therese,

 

you wrote:

 

> May I ask what programs you are using to create those helpful graphs, and

> uploading your studies to the computer?

 

Sari:

 

I use common Microsoft Excel matrix program. Most of the studies I've made

by exporting data + the control group created by ADB from ADB to Jigsaw,

letting Jigsaw to do calculations (much faster than ADB!) and then by

putting numbers in an Excel matrix by hand, then I've calculated the effect

sizes by a pocket calculator, and then I've made the graphics by Excel. It

doesn't take much time.

 

You wrote:

 

Does the same program produce those

> circular graphs where you posted links on the FoA list?

 

Sari:

 

Yes, Excel does them too.

 

You wrote:

 

> It's interesting though, that your study emphasized angular houses for

> Mars

> whereas the Gauquelin studies emphasized cadent sectors. This might mean

> that for athletes Mars energy is somehow productively channeled whereas

> for

> rapists Mars energy is out of control.

 

Sari:

 

This is something I've thought for several years. How come that strong

Gauquelin sectors hit cadent houses that should traditionally be weak?

Geoffrey Dean says in his Gauquelin article that in those times when the

majority of the Gauquelin sportsmen and other eminent people were born (in

the 19th and early 20th century), it was parents who announced the birth of

a baby to the municipal authorities, and close examination of the data gives

hints that the parents altered the birth times in some cases to suit better

then prevailing astrological beliefs (there's lack of births in unfortunate

dates like the 13th, lack of births in midnight etc.). It's a bold claim,

but one has better to read the article in its entirety before making further

judgments http://www.rudolfhsmit.nl/g-arti2.htm . Nick Kollerstrom here

http://www.astrozero.co.uk/astroscience/koll1ge.pdf tells how Suitbert Ertel

visited Gauquelin's laboratory in 1987 and happened to find another,

unpublished collection of less eminent sportsmen, whose data showed no Mars

effect, but to the contrary. So there's a lot of ambiguosity in Gauquelin's

studies.

 

But Ertel has come to the conclusion that the effect exists, be it for

scientists, actors etc. On the basis of my own studies where angularity and

cadency mostly work exactly as they should, I'm slowly approaching the

opinion that in fact those Gauquelin sectors were exactly what they are in

traditional astrology: weak areas, not strong. That means that scientist had

*weak* Saturn, not strong; actors and policians had *weak* Jupiter, not

strong; and sportsmen... I don't know. Was the data distorted? Or is it so

that Mars actually *prevents* self-discipline, that's essential for rising

to the top in sports (think about tropical Sagittarius / sideral Scorpio)?

In traditional texts Mars represents all thing sinful and excessive, riots,

rebellion, mutinies, immoderation... and Saturn represents hard physical

labour which scientific study is usually not! And Jupiter represents

moderation, honesty and decency in the old texts, not excess or colorful

performance required from a politician or actor...?

 

Dave wrote:

 

I've always considered angular zones to extend 10 degrees back into the

prior house and 15-to-20 degrees into the angular house. This is akin to

Therese (and some others) who places the cusp in the middle of the house. My

experience can't argue against that.

 

Sari:

 

This is a bit like what I've been taught too, that the house actually begins

little before the cusp so that the planet near the cusp can be calculated

into the next house. On the Future of Astrology list Ray Murphy hinted that

people with a long life (>80 years) have the Moon in the 7th house more than

usual. I tested it with 770 long lived people from ADB and it was indeed the

case. This provived an excellent chance to study different house systems and

also these 'offsets', the practice to extend the house back into the prior

house. Which option would give a bigger peak, sharp house borders or

offsets?

 

I tested Sripati houses, an Indian quadrant houses system where houses

exceed to the both sides of the cusps so that the border of two houses is in

the midpoint of their cusps. That system gave quite a blurred result, the

peak being divided both in the 7th and 8th houses. Placidus without offsets

gave a clear, sharp peak in the 7th house and so did Alcabitius. With

Alcabitius the peak was accompanied with a little dent in the 1st house.

Finally I tried Alcabitius with offsets (eight degrees for the angular

houses, five degrees for the succedents and three degrees for the cadent

houses) and the result was clearly weaker. That was a little surprise for me

too because I've used to see the planet near to the cusp in the next house.

It will require a bit effort to unlearn that habit, because it really seems

to give weaker results.

 

In all the studies I've made so far (of which the published study was only a

part) the quadrant house systems have outdone the equal systems, whatever

they may have been. Results like that are really fascinating - here we have

a tool for separating wheat from caff.

 

Dave wrote:

 

In some of my chart work lately I've noticed the presence of Neptune angular

or at the Ascendant of murderers (Scott Peterson, Richard Spick for example)

in Solar Returns and daily progression charts. This planet is also often

angular in Solar Returns and daily charts for marriages. The horizontal axis

seems more sensitive to the personal planets than the vertical axis,

although the vertical axis (when populated by middle-outer planets) seems to

reflect the influences of family expectations and social position. Of

course when a couple marries they also find changes in their home and

perhaps jobs and new joint goals. Have you ever broken down " angularity "

into vertical and horizontal groupings or is the sample sizes too small to

be useful for this detail?

 

Sari:

 

Yes, I've studied single houses too and the results have been interesting.

There's a lot to find there. What you wrote about Neptune sounds fitting too

in regard with angular Neptune on rapists' charts. It seems not to be quite

the planet we've used to see it like...

 

Best, Sari

[Guest guest]

At 11:22 PM 4/28/08 -0000, Dave wrote [to Sari]:

Your observations

>about the Placidus seem right on as that house system's division of

>the semi-arcs is based on time-to-rise (as I understand it).

-----------------------------

 

The fact that Placidus is showing up so well for the psychology of

criminals (rapists) goes back to the Hellenistic concept of different kinds

of house systems being used for different types of delineation. If 'topics'

were investigated, that is parents, siblings, profession, etc. a system of

whole signs or equal houses was used. These were *topical* houses. But

quadrant systems were used to judge the strength of planets.

 

So taking this into perspective both the astrologers of India and western

astrologers are correct in their use of house systems. India's astrology

has used mainly whole sign houses or an equal division of the ecliptic to

judge events, and western astrologers generally prefer the quadrant

systems. In other words for a complete astrological picture, each

astrologer needs to use at least two different house systems. (That is if

equal systems perform well for events and topics.)

 

For rapists, for example, in the strong Mars placement we're seeing a

psychological profile of a person who would act extremely agressively

against others. But that doesn't say anything about the rapist's 'day job,'

family situation or any other facet (topic) of his life.

 

>I've always considered angular zones to extend 10 degrees back into

>the prior house and 15-to-20 degrees into the angular house. This is

>akin to Therese (and some others) who places the cusp in the middle of

>the house. My experience can't argue against that.

 

This would be an interesting topic to investigate. Perhaps topically

related questions should be considered within the framework of the

surrounding areas of cusps. I suppose the way to test this would be with

the various professional groups in ADB.

 

>In some of my chart work lately I've noticed the presence of Neptune

>angular or at the Ascendant of murderers (Scott Peterson, Richard

>Spick for example) in Solar Returns and daily progression charts.

 

Wouldn't this support the concept of sidereal Pisces acting like tropical

Aries? The mythology of Neptune shows us that the God of the Sea was a wild

kinda' guy, heedlessly racing over the waves with the goal of conquering

whatever he could. I think I remember that he was the only major god who

didn't conform to the laws laid down by Zeus. (Don't remember where I read

that...)

 

Sari is showing us that there's a lot of fun research out there for

astrologers.

 

Oh...a new book that Dave just told me about: FIVE MEDIEVAL ASTROLOGERS, a

translation of aphorisms (hundreds) by James H. Holden. Newly released this

month. $21.95 on Amazon.com

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

At 02:41 PM 4/29/08 +0300, Sari wrote:

>

>I use common Microsoft Excel matrix program. Most of the studies I've made

>by exporting data + the control group created by ADB from ADB to Jigsaw,

>letting Jigsaw to do calculations (much faster than ADB!) and then by

>putting numbers in an Excel matrix by hand, then I've calculated the effect

>sizes by a pocket calculator, and then I've made the graphics by Excel. It

>doesn't take much time.

 

Thanks for describing your methods, Sari.

 

>... I'm slowly approaching the

>opinion that in fact those Gauquelin sectors were exactly what they are in

>traditional astrology: weak areas, not strong. That means that scientists

had

>*weak* Saturn, not strong; actors and policians had *weak* Jupiter, not

>strong; and sportsmen...

 

I'm not sure about that concept because (for example) politicians will

almost invariably have a Moon-Jupiter link either in the natal chart or the

navamsa. Of course now we can test this with various professional groups in

ADB.

 

In 1990 a friend (Sylvia Tobias) and I completed a research project that

was published in the NCGR Journal. We took all the charts in the Gauquelin

Book of American Charts (GBAC) and tested them for trait words. All the

charts in that book have accurately timed births. What we found was that

Mars gave the clearest pattern for Gauquelin 'plus zones.'

 

Also the Mars pattern accelerated at the eastern horizon cusp. In the

sample we used the 8th house turned out to be a plus zone. The other

planets deviated in various ways from the Gauquelin pattern. I wish I had

continued with that kind of research because now I don't remember how to

use the computer programs we used for that study.

 

>[sari wrote:] I don't know. Was the data distorted? Or is it so

>that Mars actually *prevents* self-discipline, that's essential for rising

>to the top in sports (think about tropical Sagittarius / sideral Scorpio)?

 

This is where research would have to study the area of signs and aspects.

 

>In traditional texts Mars represents all thing sinful and excessive, riots,

>rebellion, mutinies, immoderation... and Saturn represents hard physical

>labour which scientific study is usually not!

 

It could be that Saturn gives the patience to work with the slow and

methodical details of the scientist. But then...maybe not. Perhaps we're

talking about Mercury. Sari, will your next study relate to professional

groups?

 

>[Dave wrote:]

>I've always considered angular zones to extend 10 degrees back into the

>prior house and 15-to-20 degrees into the angular house. This is akin to

>Therese (and some others) who places the cusp in the middle of the house. My

>experience can't argue against that.

>

>[sari wrote:]

>This is a bit like what I've been taught too, that the house actually begins

>little before the cusp so that the planet near the cusp can be calculated

>into the next house...

>...Finally I tried Alcabitius with offsets (eight degrees for the angular

>houses, five degrees for the succedents and three degrees for the cadent

>houses) and the result was clearly weaker. That was a little surprise for me

>too because I've used to see the planet near to the cusp in the next house.

>It will require a bit effort to unlearn that habit, because it really seems

>to give weaker results.

 

It might depend on *what* we are looking for. Is it the psychology of the

Moon we're seeing or the statement of 'long life?' The Moon may come out to

be in the 7th for other research groups as well. The Moon is a social

planet, and all the research says that those who enjoy social interaction

with others are happier and live longer.

 

>In all the studies I've made so far (of which the published study was only a

>part) the quadrant house systems have outdone the equal systems, whatever

>they may have been. Results like that are really fascinating - here we have

>a tool for separating wheat from [chaff].

 

I'd say it's on to testing some factual data to see if the quadrant systems

still hold up better than equal houses. And then--offset or no offset? I

have do doubt that timing relates to planetary hours which would place the

emphasis on Placidus cusps. But timing doesn't describe what a person does

in life--whether he's an actor or scientist or works on the road crew.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

>In some of my chart work lately I've noticed the presence of Neptune

>angular or at the Ascendant of murderers (Scott Peterson, Richard

>Spick for example) in Solar Returns and daily progression charts.

 

>>Wouldn't this support the concept of sidereal Pisces acting like tropical

>>Aries? The mythology of Neptune shows us that the God of the Sea was a wild

>>kinda' guy, heedlessly racing over the waves with the goal of conquering

>>whatever he could. I think I remember that he was the only major god who

>>didn't conform to the laws laid down by Zeus. (Don't remember where I read

>>that...)

 

Hi Sari,

 

Thank you so much for this interesting study.

I have been following the thread but too timid to jump in due to lack of depth

in this area.

 

However, what you said about angular Neptune intrigues me because I have

Neptune on my ASC axis natally. I don't think it makes me prone to be a

murderer because I can't even kill a fly. However, I might act out in other

ways that might also be seen as reckless as seen in mythology as Therese

mentioned?

 

Thanks again for the interesting analysis!

Felicia

 

--- Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote:

 

> At 11:22 PM 4/28/08 -0000, Dave wrote [to Sari]:

> Your observations

> >about the Placidus seem right on as that house system's division of

> >the semi-arcs is based on time-to-rise (as I understand it).

> -----------------------------

>

> The fact that Placidus is showing up so well for the psychology of

> criminals (rapists) goes back to the Hellenistic concept of different kinds

> of house systems being used for different types of delineation. If 'topics'

> were investigated, that is parents, siblings, profession, etc. a system of

> whole signs or equal houses was used. These were *topical* houses. But

> quadrant systems were used to judge the strength of planets.

>

> So taking this into perspective both the astrologers of India and western

> astrologers are correct in their use of house systems. India's astrology

> has used mainly whole sign houses or an equal division of the ecliptic to

> judge events, and western astrologers generally prefer the quadrant

> systems. In other words for a complete astrological picture, each

> astrologer needs to use at least two different house systems. (That is if

> equal systems perform well for events and topics.)

>

> For rapists, for example, in the strong Mars placement we're seeing a

> psychological profile of a person who would act extremely agressively

> against others. But that doesn't say anything about the rapist's 'day job,'

> family situation or any other facet (topic) of his life.

>

> >I've always considered angular zones to extend 10 degrees back into

> >the prior house and 15-to-20 degrees into the angular house. This is

> >akin to Therese (and some others) who places the cusp in the middle of

> >the house. My experience can't argue against that.

>

> This would be an interesting topic to investigate. Perhaps topically

> related questions should be considered within the framework of the

> surrounding areas of cusps. I suppose the way to test this would be with

> the various professional groups in ADB.

>

> >In some of my chart work lately I've noticed the presence of Neptune

> >angular or at the Ascendant of murderers (Scott Peterson, Richard

> >Spick for example) in Solar Returns and daily progression charts.

>

> Wouldn't this support the concept of sidereal Pisces acting like tropical

> Aries? The mythology of Neptune shows us that the God of the Sea was a wild

> kinda' guy, heedlessly racing over the waves with the goal of conquering

> whatever he could. I think I remember that he was the only major god who

> didn't conform to the laws laid down by Zeus. (Don't remember where I read

> that...)

>

> Sari is showing us that there's a lot of fun research out there for

> astrologers.

>

> Oh...a new book that Dave just told me about: FIVE MEDIEVAL ASTROLOGERS, a

> translation of aphorisms (hundreds) by James H. Holden. Newly released this

> month. $21.95 on Amazon.com

>

> Therese

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Neptune doesn't make one a murderer. Bill Clinton had Neptune on the

Asc. if I remember right. Neptune/Asc. would contribute to giving one

an idealized view of the world where " idealized " could be a positive

thing or a negative thing. Other factors would help shape that. A

close friend had this configuration; he would fall asleep in the

morning at a business meeting or while on coffee break. Neptune has a

lot of ways of working in our lives.

 

I'm not sure that we should jump to switching tropical Aries and the

planet Mars for sidereal Pisces and the planet Neptune. The Sidereal

Zodiac was the original observation-correlation based zodiac and it's

signs weren't given modifying qualities upon the planets way back

then. All of that stuff came in later after the second century or so.

Nobody modified Mars or Neptune (as planets) although the mythology

has been played with a lot. Neptune as a planet wasn't know way back

when, only in modern times.

 

Dave

[Guest guest]

At 12:52 AM 4/30/08 -0000, Dave wrote:

>

>I'm not sure that we should jump to switching tropical Aries and the

>planet Mars for sidereal Pisces and the planet Neptune.

 

Actually, Dave, Jupiter has always been the lord of Pisces, but now of

course we have a dual rulership. If we look at the real life occupations

and interests of strongly (sidereal) Piscean people (Asc plus planets in

Pisces) we get:

 

A ballet director

A ballerina

A writer, psychic, healer, hypnotist, exorcist

A passionate actress

An astrologer who wrote a book on Cayce's astrology (Ry Redd)

A shaman/mystic

A Wicca priestess

 

All of which proves nothing since these are only ADB charts I had in my

Pisces folder. But none of these occuptions have anything to do with Mars,

but they are all in tropical Aries. It's the activities, I believe, that

will give the truth to the sidereal zodiac. The energy of any area of the

ecliptic is what it is, no matter what name you give the sign. Anything to

do with the theatre can be placed under Jupiter, but it would seem that

occupations like psychic healer or Wicca priestess would correlate with

what we believe to be Neptune energy. We do have the movers and shakers in

sidereal Pisces/tropical Aries. The question is: Do we have an abundance of

soldiers and sports people in that sign?

 

>[Dave wrote:] The Sidereal Zodiac was the original observation-correlation

based zodiac and its signs weren't given modifying qualities upon the

planets way back then.

 

First Question: Can you give some examples of 'modifying qualities upon the

planets?'

 

Actually Rupert Gleadow wrote YOUR CHARACTER IN THE ZODIAC, where he does

go 'way back there' and compares the qualities given to ancient signs

(which mainly relate to the ruling planets) and today's changed sign

meanings. Gleadow, of course, was of the Fagan-Bradley school of astrology

and delighted in pointing out the differences in sign meanings between then

and now. But I'm not sure, Dave, if this is what you mean by 'modifying

qualities upon the planets.'

 

It would be interesting to take all the charts in ADB with Sun on the

Ascendant in trop Aries/sid Pisces and see what we'd come up with. It would

also be helpful to do a thorough search of the early literature and catalog

what the ancients said about signs. Gleadow had access to some of the

Hellenistic authors, but that was before the Project Hindshight translations.

 

My personal opinion is that many of the so-called traits given in ancient

times to the signs were merely lifted from the ruling planets. I'd have to

review Gleadow's book again to be sure. The ancients certainly didn't have

computer programs to test hundreds or thousands of charts to try to

discover what the signs were really like.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

At 12:52 AM 4/30/08 -0000, Dave wrote:

 

>Neptune doesn't make one a murderer. Bill Clinton had Neptune on the

>Asc. if I remember right. Neptune/Asc. would contribute to giving one

>an idealized view of the world where " idealized " could be a positive

>thing or a negative thing. Other factors would help shape that. A

>close friend had this configuration; he would fall asleep in the

>morning at a business meeting or while on coffee break. Neptune has a

>lot of ways of working in our lives.

>

>---

 

I found a wounderful quote recently that seems to be made for astrology.

It's from THE GOLDEN COMPASS:

 

[Farder Coram is describing the Golden Compass, which always tells the

truth if one can understand the symbolism. In the book there was a whole

shelf of books the reader had to consult unless the reader had the gift of

very high intuition:]

 

" All these pictures around the rim...they're symbols, and each one stands

for a whole series of things. Take the anchor there. The first meaning of

that is hope because hope holds you fast like an anchor so you don't give

way. The second meaning is steadfastness. The third is snag, or prevention.

The fourth meaning is the sea. And so on, down to ten, twelve, maybe a

never ending series of meanings. "

 

His Dark Materials (Book 1, The Golden Compass), page 94, Alfred A. Knopf

edition, 2007

[Guest guest]

Therese wrote:

 

> The fact that Placidus is showing up so well for the psychology of

> criminals (rapists) goes back to the Hellenistic concept of different

> kinds

> of house systems being used for different types of delineation. If

> 'topics'

> were investigated, that is parents, siblings, profession, etc. a system of

> whole signs or equal houses was used. These were *topical* houses. But

> quadrant systems were used to judge the strength of planets.

 

Sari:

 

Yes, this is a theory promoted by Robert Schmidt but it's not universally

accepted. I've seen at least Deborah Houlding questioning it. Houlding is

also not sure if the whole sign houses were really the only house system

used in delineation in Greek.

 

I've searched for dates for the horoscopes in Masha'allah's Book of

Nativities which are tentatively dated by Pingree & co to quite obscure

dates that range from the 1st century to the 5th century and give several

erroneus positions to the planets. There's degrees for the cusps in those

horoscopes (Rob Hand says that they are added afterwards, but I'm in fact

not perfectly sure about that) that fit well with Porphyry/Alcabitius, and

by using those degrees/houses, not signs, for locating the planets I've

found dates in the 3rd century for three horoscopes so far in that booklet

that give quite fitting positions for the planets. What's remarkabe is that

those dates range so far from 220 to 248 a.d., so there's much better

concistency than with the dates by Pingree. This collection might be an old

one from the 3rd century that Masha'allah has re-edited. I really think it's

still an open question, how the whole sign houses were actually used back

then and what role the quadrant houses actually played.

 

In my own studies I've so far found poor evidence for the whole sign houses,

both dynamically (angular - succedent - cadent indicating strength) and

topically. Locating the MC ruler in houses (or the equal 10th ruler in

houses) has not given very good results in general by any house system.

There's possibly something we don't know about the rulers of the houses. And

of course, if whole signs or some other equal house system would work in

topical matters, then equal cusps and their dignities would probably have

given better results in the Criminal Perpetrators study. In fact the reason

why I'm currently favoring Alcabitius cusps myself is that they gave clearly

the best results with dignities in that study; I didn't publish the diagram

about sidereal Placidus cusps but it was significantly weaker than the

Alcabitius diagram. Of course one study doesn't settle it but it may hint

the direction.

 

The best results so far about topical matters has been given by Bonatti's

Part of Work (Asc + Moon - Saturn) in houses of 651 people in art and

fashion (Category = Art: Cartoonist Or Art: Commercial artist Or Art: Fine

art artist Or Art: Photography Or Art: Stage/ Set design Or Beauty:

Designer/ Fashion) compared to 439 healers (Category = Healing Fields:

Alternative methods Or Healing Fields: Counselor/ Therapist Or Healing

Fields: Energy field healer Or Healing Fields: Psychiatrist Or Healing

Fields: Psychologist Or Healing Fields: Religious healer Or Healing Fields:

Social worker Or Healing Fields: Other Healing Fields) from ADB. Using

Sripati houses, the part of Work accumulated in the so called " Kama houses "

(physical enjoyment in India) 3, 7 and 11 with the artists/designers, and

correspondingly it accumulated in the " Dharma houses " (right conduct) 1, 5

and 9 with the healers. I'll put the diagram again in the files. Other house

systems did not give as intriguing a figure - could it really be just a

co-incidence?

 

Also, when I was doing qualitative research about houses by collecting

charts with a lot of planets in a certain house, Sripati gave the most

homogenous groups. One especially striking example is mafia boss Lucky

Luciano (24th November 1897 at noon (-1.00) in Lercara Friddi, Sicily,

rating AA) who has a tight conjuction of Moon, Saturn, Sun and Mars in

Scorpio and Venus in 20 Libra and additionally Mercury in 19 Scorpio. With

whole signs all those Scorpio planets go the 11th house, with quadrant

houses without offsets all the planets except Mercury go to the 9th house,

but Sripati puts them all to the 10th house. Luciano rose to the *top* of

Italian mafia, therefore the 10th house might be the most fitting. Then

there's such extremely famous people like Celine Dion and Brooke Shields.

 

These results are not contradictory to the good results got with Alcabitius

on angular - succedent - cadent houses, because Sripati cusps are identical

with the Porphyry cusps which are almost identical with the Alcabitius

cusps. It may be that Sripati gives topical houses while Porphyry/Alcabitius

gives dynamical ones, so that when a planet is about to rise to the

Ascendant, it's angular and in the 1st house, but after it has crossed the

Ascendant, it has become cadent but it's still in the 1st house until it has

come nearer to the 12th cusp than the 1st, when it moves to the 12th house

being still cadent.

 

But my opinion is not settled yet, have to do more research.

 

Best, Sari

[Guest guest]

Therese wrote:

 

> I'm not sure about that concept because (for example) politicians will

> almost invariably have a Moon-Jupiter link either in the natal chart or

> the

> navamsa. Of course now we can test this with various professional groups

> in

> ADB.

 

Sari:

 

Of course I had to test this ) . I have no tools to test it in navamsa,

but in basic charts I tested 1043 politicians from ADB (Category = Politics:

Activist/ political Or Politics: Candidate and lost Or Politics: Heads of

state Or Politics: Party Affiliation Or Politics: Public office Or Politics:

U.S. Presidents Or Politics: Other Politics) and it seems that the Moon

makes aspects (the five Ptolemian aspects with 8 degrees orb) more than

averagely to all the other traditional planets except Saturn. The most

aspected planet is Venus, Mars comes soon after it and Jupiter is not far

from them. Moon/Venus aspects exist in 377 charts when the expected value is

360,4, and Moon/Jupiter in 392 charts (out of 1043 = 37,6 %) when the

expected value is 377,1 (36,2 %).

 

Therese wrote:

>

> In 1990 a friend (Sylvia Tobias) and I completed a research project that

> was published in the NCGR Journal. We took all the charts in the Gauquelin

> Book of American Charts (GBAC) and tested them for trait words. All the

> charts in that book have accurately timed births. What we found was that

> Mars gave the clearest pattern for Gauquelin 'plus zones.'

 

I tested also angularity and cadency (using Alcabitius) with these ADB

politicians. This time the results were what you could expect on the basis

of astrological tradition (but not like what the Gauquelins got): Mars was

the planet most often angular, then came Jupiter and then Venus. No Jupiter

in cadent houses here! (Well of course there was, but not more than in the

control group).

 

In general there's more angular than cadent planets, which could be expected

too if we think that astrology works. What's also funny is that the same

planets that rose up in aspects are prominent here also, namely Mars,

Jupiter and Venus. Saturn and Mercury (the melancholic planets) are the ones

that are most often in the cadent houses (though the effect is not big).

Mercury is least often angular and almost as often cadent as Saturn, so

maybe that means that it's the most 'anti-political' planet.

 

Therese wrote:

 

> It could be that Saturn gives the patience to work with the slow and

> methodical details of the scientist. But then...maybe not. Perhaps we're

> talking about Mercury. Sari, will your next study relate to professional

> groups?

 

Sari:

 

So far in the professional groups the ones that have had most often angular

Saturn are

- 249 priests (Category = Religion: Ecclesiastics/ western Or Religion:

Missionary Or Religion: Popes Or Religion: Saint/ Stigmatist) and

- 439 healers (Category = Healing Fields: Alternative methods Or Healing

Fields: Counselor/ Therapist Or Healing Fields: Energy field healer Or

Healing Fields: Psychiatrist Or Healing Fields: Psychologist Or Healing

Fields: Religious healer Or Healing Fields: Social worker Or Healing Fields:

Other Healing Fields).

On this basis Saturn seems to have to do with suffering, woundedness and -

curiously enough - compassion and healing, with listening to other people's

problems. Is it so that a person that has suffered herself understands

better suffering of others?

 

The diagrams mentioned in this post will be in the next file (it would be

really comfortable if this list would allow html so that the diagrams could

be included in a post). I'm sorry, I cannot do the Part of work study with

Vehlow, because it can be done only with Jigsaw and that doesn't include

Vehlow houses.

 

Best, Sari