Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 TRIGONS, QUALITIES AND TEMPERAMENT O.K, it looks like I should take up the topic of the sidereal trigons (triplicities) because I don't believe they should carry the same labels as the tropical signs--fire, earth, air and water. Using these labels causes mass confusion between the zodiacs. These labels are incorrect anyway, according to Robert Hand and Robert Schmidt (Project Hindsight). Apologies, Sari, for presenting another viewpoint below. Temperament is the new kid on the block in modern tropical astrology, Temperament has been resurrected from medieval times by tropical astrologers involved in today's classical renaissance. At that time use of the tropoical zodiac was in full swing in Eruope. That is why I called Sari's reference to temperament tropical. There are actually two concepts at work here: (1) the Qualities (hot, cold, wet and dry) and the Elements: ( fire, earth, air and water). (2) Temperament: sanguine, melancholy, choleric and phlegmatic In earliest astrology there was inconsistency in applying the elements to the signs. The best reference on their historical use is Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum's TEMPERMAENT, ASTROLOGY'S FORGOTTEN KEY (2005). Temperaments were used only to describe bodily and physical characteristics up to the 15thcentury. By this time India's astrology was firmly in place, so we don't see descriptions of temperaments in Jyotish with the usual labels used in medieval astrology. Now Sari has described her view of the elements and temperaments in relation to sidereal zodiac signs. I'm presenting below a suggested combination of qualities (hot, cold, wet dry) and temperaments that seems consistent to me. First it's helpful to have a brief description of temperament. This partial list is taken from John Gadbury (1628-1704) on pages 42-43 in Greenbaum's text. SANGUINE: generally the emblems of honesty, liberal, cheerful, affable, faithful, peacemakers, open hearted, very virtuous and religious...gentle courteous, affable disposition and temper. MELANCHOLY: full of mental reserves, ponderous and slow in conception and resolution,...suspicious...fearful, sorrowful...seldom forgetting injuries...very close and subtle in all their actions...of a mental and close disposition. CHOLERIC: tyrannical, full of revenge, quarrelsome, apt to anger, importunate...rash, involving himself in many unnecessary troubles and vexations... of a rugged, surly and tyrannical disposition PHLEGMATIC: ...a busy body, mutable, not capable of keeping secrets...a begging, boasting...person, yet a very coward, wonderful slow, dull and sluggish in the performance of any business, yet sometimes given to mirth. These four temperaments can fairly easily be related to planets: Sanguine to Jupiter and Venus, perhaps Sun Melancholy to Saturn Choleric to Mars Phlegmatic perhaps to Mercury and the Moon I don't see how these can be easily related to trigons in either zodiac because natives of any zodiac sign might display any of the above characteristics if the relevant planet is prominent in the chart. Now if we take the Hellenistic triplicity lords, we get a hint of the planetary association with zodiac signs: Aries, Leo, Sagittarius: triplicity lords Jupiter and the Sun; The Sun is exalted in Aries, Sagittarius is Jupiter's primary sign (Sanguine related, but not perfect) Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn: triplicity lords Venus and the Moon: The Moon is exalted in Taurus, Venus is home in Taurus (phlegmatic related, but not perfect) Gemini, Libra, Aquarius: triplicity lords Saturn and Mercury; Saturn is exalted in Libra, home in Aquarius; Mercury is home in Gemini. (This trigon relates well to melancholy.) Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces: triplicity lord Mars (Some add Venus and the Moon.) This is the only trigon that can be related to the choleric quality via the Hellenistic trigon lords since Mars is the primary lord of this trigon. Now if we see the tropical fire signs which we call ‘fiery,' but we're really seeing the underlying sidereal ‘water' signs, then the symbolism is consistent. But why are the sidereal ‘water' signs choleric? This goes back to Aristotle and the Stoic system of qualities. Aries, Leo, Sagittarius = hot (Sun=hot: exalted in Mars-ruled Aries) Gemini, Libra, Aquarius = cold (Saturn=cold; exalted in Libra, home in Aquarius) According to Aristotle, Cold and Hot are active--basically mean self-motivating or taking the initiative. (That is, not looking outside themselves for advice and verification of their beliefs and actions. Not asking, " What do you think? How should I act? " ) Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn = dry (Mercury=dry; at home and exalted in Virgo) Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces = wet (Jupiter=wet: exalted in Cancer, Scorpio) Aristotle's definitions of Wet-Dry: Dry = algebraic, object oriented, solid, rigid, clear, enhances distinctions (mental, ‘of the mind,') rational Wet = spatial, geometric, liquid, assumes the shape of the container, fluid, formless, ambiguous, blurs distinctions, irrational Now we can see that these categories can never work in the tropical zodiac, but changed to the sidereal--that is looking at the underlying sidereal signs: Tropical air becomes ‘earth' or DRY. Tropical books call this the mental triplicity. Tropical fire becomes ‘water' or WET. Tropical books call this triplicity excitable, enthusiastic (basically choleric) Aristotle would call this type of person ‘irrational.' Tropical water becomes ‘air' or COLD. Internal or self-motivatied; (tended toward melancholy) Tropical earth becomes ‘fire' or HOT. Stable, confident, self-motivating (tending toward sanguine) Although I've had these associations in my mind for a long time, this is the first attempt to put it down in written form. (And it's definitely only a first draft.) But the basic outline is there linking the Stoic qualities (hot, cold, wet, dry) to the four trigons and relating the Hellenistic triplicity lords to temperaments and signs. The more perfect relationship is only between the planets and temperament, though melancholy/cold and choleric/wet are fairly close matches to their trigons (Cold=melancholy; Wet=choleric). We can see then that the masculine Sun would become less secure and stable in the wet and dry trigons, while the Moon would become less flexible and changeable in the hot and cold trigons. As I've said before, I don't see the four elements (fire, earth, air, water) as in synch with the sidereal signs. The modern descriptions were born in the tropical zodiac, and I believe that is where they belong. Strictly speaking, their ancient qualities are not today's tropical psychological sign descriptions. Therese Hamilton March 20, 2008 First Draft: Trigons, Qualities and Temperament Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Therese wrote: > SANGUINE: generally the emblems of honesty, liberal, cheerful, affable, > faithful, peacemakers, open hearted, very virtuous and religious...gentle > courteous, affable disposition and temper. Sari: The problem is, if you ask any modern tropical astrologer (who doesn't know about temperaments and elements), what Air is like, she'll probably answer: " it's cool and detached, theoretical, aloof, more interested in ideas than other people, intellectual, analytical etc " . This doesn't sound like " hot and moist " . Traditionally air is seen as a light, maybe even a bit superficial element, being an eternal child at heart, crying easily but forgetting as easily. As Nicholas Culpeper wrote: " As for their conditions, they are merry, cheerful creatures, bountiful, pitiful, merciful, courteous, bold, trusty, given much to the games of Venus, as they has been apprentice seven years to the trade. A little thing will make them weep, but so soon as 'tis over, no further grief sticks to their hearts. " Therese wrote: > PHLEGMATIC: ...a busy body, mutable, not capable of keeping secrets...a > begging, boasting...person, yet a very coward, wonderful slow, dull and > sluggish in the performance of any business, yet sometimes given to mirth. Sari: You left some key words out and there was nothing about " begging " . The whole quote is as follows: " The Phlegmatic person is uxorious and busie-body, a mutable person, not capable of keeping secrets; a vaporing, bragging, boasting, cracking person, yet very coward; wonderful slow, dull and sluggish in the performance of any business... yet he is sometimes given to mirth. " The words " bragging " , " boasting " and " cracking " are quite surprising, when we are talking about tropical water(?). Therese wrote: Now if we > take the Hellenistic triplicity lords, we get a hint of the planetary > association with zodiac signs: > > Aries, Leo, Sagittarius: triplicity lords Jupiter and the Sun; The Sun is > exalted in Aries, Sagittarius is Jupiter's primary sign (Sanguine related, > but not perfect) > > Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn: triplicity lords Venus and the Moon: The Moon is > exalted in Taurus, Venus is home in Taurus (phlegmatic related, but not > perfect) > > Gemini, Libra, Aquarius: triplicity lords Saturn and Mercury; Saturn is > exalted in Libra, home in Aquarius; Mercury is home in Gemini. (This > trigon > relates well to melancholy.) > > Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces: triplicity lord Mars (Some add Venus and the > Moon.) Sari: Dignity and similarity are different things and Greeks knew that well. Planets are often dignified in a different element than their own, because the element balances the natural qualities of the planet. - Jupiter is dignified in fire in nocturnal charts (nocturnal = the Sun is below the horizon), because fire dries excessive moisture of Jupiter and it behaves in a more rational and logical way. Jupiter is in its detriment in Gemini though they both share the same element, and that's because when Jupiter is in Gemini, there's too much air; Jupiter becomes too idealistic and impractical, it has both feet firmly in the air, it's ungrounded. - Venus and the Moon are dignified in earth because earth dries their excessive moisture and they behave in a more grounded and practical way. Earth alleviates too much drama and emotionalism. - Saturn and Mercury are dignified in air, because air moistens and warms them up. Air gives idealism, intuition and refinement, and prevents earthy Saturn and Mercury from becoming too cynical and materialistic. - Mars is dignified in water, because water cools it down and gives compassion, humanity, understanding, and sense of humour. When Mars is in fire, there's a danger of excessive fieriness and Mars can behave in an erratic and even violent way, like you saw when you compared the charts of " saints and sinners " . Therese wrote: I just realized (having forgotten) that Aristotle's elements don't match the way they have been given to the tropical (or sidereal) zodiac signs. Fire is across from Water Air is across from Earth So they can't really be properly assigned to signs of the zodiac. Sari: No one has said that those qualities should fit the signs in zodiacal order. Hot and moist Air is across cold and dry Earth, because Air represents (Jungian) intuition and immateriality, but Earth represtents matter and tangibility (Jung's sensation type). Hot and dry Fire is across Cold and moist Water, because Fire represents thinking and intellect ( " sharp, cutting intellect " ) and Water represents feeling. How come that Fire is about thinking? - It's this masculine appeal for machines, technical apparatuses, tools and engineering. Building something alone in the garage, or surviving in the jungle because of your inventive and independent resourcefulness. Jeff Green writes in his Pluto Volume II, how Venus in tropical Taurus means leaning on your own resources and being independent - that's Venus in sideral Aries, a fiery sign ruled by Mars. You wrote somewhere that I only need to look at you when thinking whether air is a sanguine or melancholic element. Yes, you have the Sun and the Moon together in sidereal Libra, an air sign ruled by Venus, but it's important to note who actually rules any given point in the chart. There's several rulers: domicile ruler, exaltation ruler, element ruler, bound ruler and finally face ruler. One traditional method is to find out who has most power in any given degree by giving: - five points to the domicile ruler - four points to the exaltation ruler - three points to the element ruler - two points to the bound ruler - one point to the face ruler. And then the ruler must testify the point under its rulership, and that happens by aspect. The ruler must " see " its territory. In your chart Venus is in an adjacent sign to Libra, in Virgo. It cannot see the Libra planets, it's " out on a coffee break " , so in practice it doesn't have much to say to the function of your Sun and Moon. But what else we have? Saturn is the exaltation ruler of Libra and because you have a diurnal chart, it's also the elemental ruler. That makes seven points altogether. It has essentially more power in Libra in your chart than Venus does, but what's even more important, it's aspecting your Sun and Moon closely! Your Sun and Moon are in fact applying it, they're both very interested in Saturn! And Saturn receives them in his exaltation and element, because it has power there. That gives your Sun and Moon clearly a more Saturnine than Venusian quality. And Saturn is in a fiery sign, it has this cutting, penetrating, thinking and also masculine, introverted quality and it gives it to the planet that it rules, especially because it's retrogade (so it mirrors back any energy that it's getting added by its own energy). So, there's no doubt about the influence of Saturn on your Sun and Moon, but it doesn't mean that Libra is always a Saturnine sign. It may be, it may be not. In Felicia's chart Venus has more to say to her Libra ascendant, because being both domicile and bound ruler (=seven points, Venus is the bound ruler of 21-28 Libra) it has more power in the ascending degree than Saturn, and it aspects the ascendant closely. Saturn is not that important here. (For those who are interested in the traditional Western dignity system, here's a lot of information http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html .) Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Hi Sari, Thanks for your response to my late-night draft. (Is a late night missive anything more than a draft?) Jyotish was basically frozen in place before the medieval and later periods, so I'm thinking it's confusing the Jyotish issue to bring in these later ideas that are now being discussed on some tropical forums that are emphasizing the classical revival. Jyotish can be massively confusing as it is. So we've posted enough to give forum members a taste of the different astrologies, and I think we'd better get back to planetary basics related to Jyotish and the sidereal. Any forum member can print and save any posts on this discussion for review and study. But questions from anyone are always welcome. Sincerely, Therese At 06:46 PM 3/21/08 +0200, Sari wrote: >Sari: > >The problem is, if you ask any modern tropical astrologer (who doesn't know >about temperaments and elements), what Air is like, she'll probably answer: > " it's cool and detached, theoretical, aloof, more interested in ideas than >other people, intellectual, analytical etc " . This doesn't sound like " hot >and moist " . Traditionally air is seen as a light, maybe even a bit >superficial element, being an eternal child at heart, crying easily but >forgetting as easily. As Nicholas Culpeper wrote... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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