Guest guest Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Patrice wrote: > For you, the ask of tropicalism origin : > > http://astrologie.eklablog.com/article-18032-91616-pourquoi-les-signes-du-zodiaq\ ue-ne-correspondent-ils-plus-aux-constel.html > > Abu Yahia Al Batriq is the inventor of tropical astrology in 772, > nether Ptolemy... Tropicalism is an islamic astrology... Sidereal is a > scientific astrology. Sari: I'm sorry Patrice, I don't read French. But there's no doubt when reading Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos that he consciously advocated the use of the tropical zodiac. He was firmly of the opinion that it's the one that should be used in astrology. On the other hand, at least one chart by Masha'allah, an 8th century Arabic astrologer, was sidereal, namely the one that can be found on Rob Hand's site http://www.robhand.com/recept.htm The date 13th February 791 at 6.04 PM Bagdad, Iraq, gives following positions with Sri Yukteswar ayanamsa. First are the positions given on the site, the position in parenthesis is what Solar Fire gives for the date in question: Saturn 4.15 Aries (5.19 Aries) Jupiter 9.13 Taurus (10.07 Taurus) Mars 15.18 Taurus (18.01 Taurus) The Sun 24.35 Aquarius (24.33 Aquarius) Venus 11.39 Capricorn (11.30 Capricorn) Mercury 2.07 Aquarius (29.09 Capricorn) The Moon 28.37 Aries (28.14 Aries) The Ascendant 28 Leo (28.47 Leo) Note how close the computerized positions are with the given ones! Their charts were quite accurate even back then. Masha'allah was part of the group of the most eminent astrologers of their time who elected the time for the founding of Bagdad. James H. Holden writes: " The Caliph al-Mansûr (c.679-777) desired to build a new capital city. He told his court astrologer, Nawbakht the Persian (c.679-777), to select a favorable time to begin construction. Nawbakht, with the assistance of the young Mâshâ'allâh (c.740-c.815) and other prominent astrologers of the time, selected the early afternoon of 4 Jumada I 145 A.H., which is equivalent to Saturday 31 July 762 in the Julian calendar. " http://cura.free.fr/xxv/25hold3.html But if Masha'allah did sidereal charts (or was the chart on Rob Hand's site the only experiment in that direction?), could the other astrologers have been tropicalists? I doubt so. In May Ben Dykes will publish his newest translation of the works of Sahl and Masha'allah and it will be very interesting to see, what that treatise reveals http://www.bendykes.com/ . What are the example charts like? How they are calculated? Is the chart on Rob Hand's site the only of its kind? Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Hi! I did not know this history, thanks ! I knew the chart Sasanian http://vrai-zodiaque.neuf.fr/bagdad.html of Baghdad. However, the first chart with the tropical zodiac was made after the year 830, so after the translation of the Almagest. The " re " translation " of the Tetrabible had to be done at this time. We lost Ptolemy orignals texts and we know that the first tropical chart of the story was done by a Muslim! Between 140 and 830: no found tropical chart ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Abu Ma'shar would be the first tropical astrologer with their " solar " revolutions " (his invention?). Salh Al Tabari give the tropical positions. He was the translator of Almageste in 829. The tropical zodiac was born between VIII and IX century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Patrice wrote: > However, the first chart with the tropical zodiac was made after the > year 830, so after the translation of the Almagest. > > The " re " translation " of the Tetrabible had to be done at this time. > > We lost Ptolemy orignals texts and we know that the first tropical > chart of the story was done by a Muslim! > > Between 140 and 830: no found tropical chart ! and: Abu Ma'shar would be the first tropical astrologer with their " solar " revolutions " (his invention?). Salh Al Tabari give the tropical positions. He was the translator of Almageste in 829. The tropical zodiac was born between VIII and IX century. Sari: Thank you for this information, I didn't know that. It's too bad I don't read French, your site surely contains interesting information. But in the 8th and 9th century the difference between the sidereal and tropical zodiacs was still only about seven degrees (and astrologers were connecting humours to the elements already, they didn't wait until renaissance), so, *if* we think that the sidereal zodiac is the fixed, unchanging one, then I think we can quite safely study early Arabic texts and draw insights from them. Unless they were not foreseeing what signs will be like in the 21th century! ;o). A few days ago I saw an interesting piece of information about the origins of jyotish in Ben Dykes' forum. Ken Johnson writes there: " I hope someday to play my own small role in tracking the historical development of the horary art. There are only a few surviving Sanskrit works from the period 300-750 CE (i.e. in between the Yavanajataka and the early Arabs). I have now collected all of them. As my Sanskrit improves (I am only in my second year and just beginning to translate), I hope to make them available to the public. Perhaps, in four or five years, we shall have a solid body of work comprising all the most important historic texts of the horary art, a clear stream flowing from the YJ all the way to Lilly. I hope so. " http://www.bendykes.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=39 But does this mean " only a few surviving Sanskrit texts on horary " or " only a few surviving Sanskrit texts in general " ? It's clear that Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra is a medieval text, according to scholars it can be seen from Sanskrit that's used in it. Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Therese wrote: > All of the horoscopes in Masha'allah's ON RECEPTION are sidereal. The > postions most closely match the Raman ayanamsa, which gives a clue as to > when Hellenistic and Arabic astrology made their way to India. The Raman > ayanamsa is very close to Sri Yukteswar's ayanamsa. Sari: Thanks, Therese. I don't have On Reception, I only have The Book of Nativities that's possibly not even written by the real Masha'allah. It will be interesting to see what Ben Dykes makes about this. His scholarly work with Bonatti is exceptional, that's why I'm probably going to buy the new translation no matter what it costs. Best, Sari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 At 07:20 PM 3/20/08 +0200, Sari wrote: > >But if Masha'allah did sidereal charts (or was the chart on Rob Hand's site >the only experiment in that direction?), could the other astrologers have >been tropicalists?... All of the horoscopes in Masha'allah's ON RECEPTION are sidereal. The postions most closely match the Raman ayanamsa, which gives a clue as to when Hellenistic and Arabic astrology made their way to India. The Raman ayanamsa is very close to Sri Yukteswar's ayanamsa. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 At 07:55 AM 3/21/08 +0200, Sari wrote: > >Thanks, Therese. I don't have On Reception, I only have The Book of >Nativities that's possibly not even written by the real Masha'allah. It will >be interesting to see what Ben Dykes makes about this. His scholarly work >with Bonatti is exceptional... I haven't seen his Bonatti translation, but have read that it's wonderful. >, that's why I'm probably going to buy the new >translation no matter what it costs. Please let us know when it's available and post the URL. Thanks, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Hi Sari Apologize for digressing here from the thread. But seems like you are pretty deep into Jyotish. I take it that you use Jyotish as your primary technique and not tropical techniques applied on a sidereal zodiac. May I ask how long you been doing this. I have noticed some interesting things in the last few years. They are completely subjective and maybe wrong too. Looks like sidereal astro is on the rise in US. But Europe for some unexplainable reasons seems to be getting more people practicing Jyotish. Maybe its because there were some cultural exchanges between Europe and India in middle and earlier ages. There was Prof. Max Muller. and a strong German connection. I have heard at least till some years back there was a Sanskrit news Bulletin broadcast there on radio for one. Apparently there are many Germans doing research on Sanskrit too. I see sites sprouting suddenly in many European languages. But the European folks seem to be doing pure Jyotish unlike the many in US who do western sidereal/jyotish combo. Wonder why that is. You seem to have a lot of great material. Is that already in the folders here. Need to read some of that sometime soon. cheers Shiv Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 In this case, I think as an American... or... a Californian! I used combo Sideral western/Jyotish (stars/9 planets/transits/Porphyr and lunar mansions/dashas). In France, Jyotish or Sidereal, no combo... except me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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