In mundo fiducial stars of Nakshatra

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

Happy New Year and best wishes for 2008 to everyone!

 

As I am trying to study jyotish, I am wondering if we can study the

nakshatra with their fiducial stars as we sometime do in western

astrology, i.e. " in mundo " . I tried _very few_ charts. For instance,

one Lady with 24:20 Virgo on the Ascendant has Algorab (delta Corvi)

rising in her chart. And the description (from Shil-Ponde's book)

describe her very well...

 

What is your experience with such an idea (of mine!;-) and is it worth

trying this, or am I loosing my time there?

 

--

Best regards,

François

[Guest guest]

At 07:37 PM 1/7/08 -0000, Francois wrote:

>

>As I am trying to study jyotish, I am wondering if we can study the

>nakshatra with their fiducial stars as we sometime do in western

>astrology, i.e. " in mundo " . I tried _very few_ charts. For instance,

>one Lady with 24:20 Virgo on the Ascendant has Algorab (delta Corvi)

>rising in her chart. And the description (from Shil-Ponde's book)

>describe her very well...

 

Hi Francois,

 

There is a contingent of Tropical astrologers who consider the actual body

of the stars rising rather than their longitude along the ecliptic. Is this

what you mean by 'in mundo?' If so, Bernadette Brady's BRADY'S BOOK OF

FIXED STARS covers her view of the interpretation of these stars.

 

I had completely forgotten about Shil-Ponde's book (HINDU ASTROLOGY, Sagar

Publications, 1975) which deals with the nakshatras. Can you please give

the page number of the description that applies to the lady? What

astrological program are you using to compute the 'in mundo' positions?

 

It might be interesting to study the in mundo positions of the stars in

relation the the nakshatras. I'm a little confused about how you are

looking at this. 24:20 Virgo is in Chitra, but Algorab is in Hasta. Are you

saying that the in mundo position of Algorab on the ascendant will give

traits of Hasta? (The page number would help a lot.)

 

Thanks,

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hello Therese,

 

Thank you for your answer! I much appreciate it, as ususal!

 

On Monday, January 07, 2008 8:41 PM, Therese Hamilton

<eastwest wrote:

 

Actually, I am using Solar Fire 6. (Freeware Astrolog32 gives the same

result). I have built a fixed start file relying on data from the Surya

Siddhanta, translated by Burgess (Motilal pub. house).

 

> At 07:37 PM 1/7/08 -0000, Francois wrote:

>>

>> As I am trying to study jyotish, I am wondering if we can study the

>> nakshatra with their fiducial stars as we sometime do in western

>> astrology, i.e. " in mundo " . I tried _very few_ charts. For instance,

>> one Lady with 24:20 Virgo on the Ascendant has Algorab (delta Corvi)

>> rising in her chart. And the description (from Shil-Ponde's book)

>> describe her very well...

>

> Hi Francois,

>

> There is a contingent of Tropical astrologers who consider the actual

> body of the stars rising rather than their longitude along the

> ecliptic. Is this what you mean by 'in mundo?' If so, Bernadette

> Brady's BRADY'S BOOK OF FIXED STARS covers her view of the

> interpretation of these stars.

 

Actually, I still rely on Robson's Book, but I have read about " in mundo "

positions in a tropical traditional book from french astrologer Denis

Labouré. I wrote to him about this idea. No news yet. And yes, I believe I

am using Brady's description. (Can it be also called " Parans " ?)

 

> I had completely forgotten about Shil-Ponde's book (HINDU ASTROLOGY,

> Sagar Publications, 1975) which deals with the nakshatras. Can you

> please give the page number of the description that applies to the

> lady? What astrological program are you using to compute the 'in

> mundo' positions?

 

Hasta description for Lady is on page 96 of Hindu Astrology (Jyotisha

Shastra), Sagar, reprint 1997 (Chapter 6, about rising asterisme in female

nativities). By the way, I am discovering Shil Ponde... Probably it would be

a good idea to give the data of the lady. So: March 11, 1972, 20h10. EST.

Montreal, 73w34, 45n34. Now, using the " stars.pag " from Solar fire, we see

that Algorab is rising at 20h13, which is near her time of birth.

 

> It might be interesting to study the in mundo positions of the stars

> in relation the the nakshatras. I'm a little confused about how you

> are looking at this. 24:20 Virgo is in Chitra, but Algorab is in

> Hasta. Are you saying that the in mundo position of Algorab on the

> ascendant will give traits of Hasta? (The page number would help a

> lot.)

 

I believe so. Also, since the lady has commited some illegal action, I have

reason to believe Algorab describes her " well " (Robson's description, for

instance).

 

Since I have created a file for the fiducial stars of the nakshatra with

their starting degree and Star lord, I will put these files in the file area

of website, so those who wish to use it will be able to. There is also

a file that can be used as " extra ring points " . It can also be

interesting...

 

--

Best regards,

François

[Guest guest]

At 10:27 PM 1/7/08 -0500, Francois wrote:

>

>Actually, I am using Solar Fire 6. (Freeware Astrolog32 gives the same

>result). I have built a fixed star file relying on data from the Surya

>Siddhanta, translated by Burgess (Motilal pub. house).

 

Francois, for those who are interested, can you give instructions on where

these files go in Solar Fire, and how to use them? Since I have an earlier

version of SF, I can't use the files within the program. A while ago I

installed a SR6 file, and my SF program crashed. The Astrolabe support team

said it was not safe to use SF6 files in an earlier version.

 

So I'm no sure exactly what is in your fixed star file.

 

>[Francois]...Actually, I still rely on Robson's Book, but I have read

about " in mundo "

>positions in a tropical traditional book from french astrologer Denis

>Labouré. I wrote to him about this idea. No news yet. And yes, I believe I

>am using Brady's description. (Can it be also called " Parans " ?)

 

[Therese] I am not an expert in 'in mundo' positions. Perhaps others on

this forum know more about them. 'Paran' means that two bodies cross the

angles simultaneously.

 

>[Francois] Hasta description for Lady is on page 96 of Hindu Astrology

(Jyotisha

>Shastra), Sagar, reprint 1997 (Chapter 6, about rising asterisme in female

>nativities). By the way, I am discovering Shil Ponde... Probably it would be

>a good idea to give the data of the lady. So: March 11, 1972, 20h10. EST.

>Montreal, 73w34, 45n34. Now, using the " stars.pag " from Solar fire, we see

>that Algorab is rising at 20h13, which is near her time of birth.

 

[Therese] The page number is the same in my book. But I am not sure how

reliable Shil Ponde's descriptions are. What is the source of his

information? I have never read similar descriptions anywhere else. The

earliest description of nakshatras for women come from the late 4th

century, and don't resemble Shil Ponde's description.

 

Today's 27 lunar mansions are definitely measured on the ecliptic, but the

ancient nakshatras were associated with certain stars. Here is Valerie

Roebuck's translation of Hasta from Minarja (Hindu Astrology Lessons by

Richard Houck, editor, pp. 206-209):

 

" Under Hasta a woman will have fine hands and splendid eyes and ears, will

be patient and rich in virtue, will know the rules of behavior, and will

have an extremely lovely face, and a body which brings growing bliss. " (p.

207)

 

So Algorab doesn't carry the same traditional meaning as Hasta. Who is to

say if any of the interpretations are accurate, given the translation

difficulties which Robbuck mentions? It's a wide open field of study.

 

>[Francois]...Also, since the lady has commited some illegal action, I have

>reason to believe Algorab describes her " well " (Robson's description, for

>instance).

 

[Therese] Brady would agree with you that the lady would be influenced by

Algorab. I don't know her interpretation of that star, and at this time I

don't have an opinion of 'in mundo' stars.

 

>[Francois] Since I have created a file for the fiducial stars of the

nakshatra with

>their starting degree and Star lord...

 

[Therese] If you've followed Surya Siddhanta, then some of the stars are no

longer in today's 27 equal lunar mansions. I've made a new list of all the

longitudes of the stars, and which mansions they fall in. Today's primary

stars are listed here: http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/amansions.htm

 

I have the longitudes in hard copy, but they aren't in the file above. I

have also copied the Surya Siddhanta pages on the asterisms and enlarged

them, so any reference you describe I can check. That section in SS is by

far the best source of information on the asterisms (nakshatras) that we

have today.

 

>[Francois]...I will put these files in the file area

>of website, so those who wish to use it will be able to. There is also

>a file that can be used as " extra ring points " .

 

[Therese] Is it possible to change the star file to a text file so we can

see the fiducial stars you've noted? My computer programs did not recognize

the extension so refused to open the file. The 'extra points' file of

course would work only in Solar Fire.

 

Thanks,

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hello Terese,

 

De: " Therese Hamilton " <eastwest

À:

Objet: Re: In mundo fiducial stars of Nakshatra

Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:09 PM

 

> At 10:27 PM 1/7/08 -0500, Francois wrote:

 

>>Actually, I am using Solar Fire 6. (Freeware Astrolog32 gives the same

>>result). I have built a fixed star file relying on data from the Surya

>>Siddhanta, translated by Burgess (Motilal pub. house).

 

> Francois, for those who are interested, can you give instructions on where

these files go in Solar Fire, and how to use them? Since I have an earlier

version of SF, I can't use the files within the program. A while ago I

installed a SR6 file, and my SF program crashed. The Astrolabe support team

said it was not safe to use SF6 files in an earlier version.

 

Actually, when one unzip the file, the nakshatra files are already in the

" userdata " «directory», where they have to be. Just unzip the file in

SFDeluxe «main directory» and it should go at right place. (for version 6,

of course!).

 

> So I'm no sure exactly what is in your fixed star file.

 

The name of the stars have been changed to the degree which begin the

nakshatra they belong to. I have put an example of the output (Rick Houck)

in the file section of our . So, if we look at the chart, on the

first degree of Sagittarius, at the outside, we see " 00:00 K 00°43 " . The

first degree (00:00) stands for the begining of nakshatra (0° Sag), " K " is

the letter of the Starlord (Ketu) and " 00°43 " is the sidereal longitude of

the fiducial Star (here, Shaula ou lambda Scorpionis).

 

>>[Francois]...Actually, I still rely on Robson's Book, but I have read

about " in mundo "

>positions in a tropical traditional book from french astrologer Denis

>Labouré. I wrote to him about this idea. No news yet. And yes, I believe I

>am using Brady's description. (Can it be also called " Parans " ?)

 

> [Therese] I am not an expert in 'in mundo' positions. Perhaps others on

this forum know more about them. 'Paran' means that two bodies cross the

angles simultaneously.

 

That's the positions I am looking for.

 

>>[Francois] Hasta description for Lady is on page 96 of Hindu Astrology

(Jyotisha

>Shastra), Sagar, reprint 1997 (Chapter 6, about rising asterisme in female

>nativities). By the way, I am discovering Shil Ponde... Probably it would

>be

>a good idea to give the data of the lady. So: March 11, 1972, 20h10. EST.

>Montreal, 73w34, 45n34. Now, using the " stars.pag " from Solar fire, we see

>that Algorab is rising at 20h13, which is near her time of birth.

 

> [Therese] The page number is the same in my book. But I am not sure how

reliable Shil Ponde's descriptions are. What is the source of his

information? I have never read similar descriptions anywhere else. The

earliest description of nakshatras for women come from the late 4th

century, and don't resemble Shil Ponde's description.

 

Actually I am waiting for Shubhakaran's books on nakshatra, I will see after

I got them from «Vedic Books» (they are very slow on delivery! I miss Shiv

Chadha Manorama Occult!). The other reliable book on naksh I have is

Harness'. In a copy of Jyestha from Shubhakaran's I have read, I recognize

totally myself, which helped me for rectification (done by a talented

Belgium jyotishi, M.-C. Sclifet).

 

[...]

 

> [Therese] If you've followed Surya Siddhanta, then some of the stars are

> no

longer in today's 27 equal lunar mansions. I've made a new list of all the

longitudes of the stars, and which mansions they fall in. Today's primary

stars are listed here: http://users.snowcrest.net/sunrise/amansions.htm

 

Actually, I wonder if this has not to do with the ayanamsha we choose. For

instance, as I understand that " vexed " question now, is that there were

three main positions: (1) Spica at 180° (Greek/Hindu -> Lahiri); (2) Spica

at 180°50 (i.e. in mundo, or culminating); (3) Revati at 359°50. Main Stars

positions in Surya Siddhanta follow Revati. Also, I have discovered that in

the first day of the Kali Yuga, (18 feb 3102 BC, Julian day 588465, Revati

was between the luminaries (so, it was " Caitra " lunar month)... Furthermore,

we can not expect earlier astronomers to have as much precision as today.

 

> [Therese] Is it possible to change the star file to a text file so we can

see the fiducial stars you've noted? My computer programs did not recognize

the extension so refused to open the file. The 'extra points' file of

course would work only in Solar Fire.

 

I can not change Solar Fire file to a text file (don't know how). However, I

have work the fixtars file of the freeware Astrolog (version 5.41H from

Valentin Abramov) which I also use extensively. So here are the positions

for jan. 1, 2000. Swiss Ephemeris. The first number of each line refer to

the nakshatra number.

 

Astrolog 5.41H chart for

Sat Jan 1, 2000 0:00:00 (ST +0:00 GMT) 0:00:00W 0:00:00N

 

Body Location Ret. Latitude Rul. House Rul. Velocity Magnitude

01.Sherata: 10Ari06'55 " + 8:29'17 " [ 8th] BeAri Star # 1:

2.64

02.35 Arie: 23Ari04'53 " +11:18'52 " [ 8th] 35Ari Star # 2:

0.00

03.Alcyone: 6Tau08'23 " + 4:03'04 " [ 9th] etTau Star # 3:

2.87

04.Aldebar: 15Tau56'14 " - 5:28'03 " [ 9th] alTau Star # 4:

0.85

05.Heka : 29Tau51'22 " -13:22'10 " [ 9th] LaOri Star # 5:

3.66

06.Betelge: 4Gem54'12 " -16:01'38 " [10th] alOri Star # 6:

0.50

07.Pollux : 29Gem21'51 " + 6:41'02 " [10th] BeGem Star # 7:

1.14

08.Asel.Au: 14Can52'12 " + 0:04'38 " [11th] DeCan Star # 8:

3.94

09.EpHyd : 18Can29'34 " -11:06'13 " [11th] EpHyd Star # 9:

0.00

10.Regulus: 5Leo58'33 " + 0:27'53 " [12th] AlLeo Star #10:

1.35

11.Zosma : 17Leo27'45 " +14:19'56 " [12th] DeLeo Star #11:

2.56

12.Denebol: 27Leo45'44 " +12:15'57 " [12th] BeLeo Star #12:

2.14

13.Algorab: 19Vir35'39 " -12:11'42 " [ 1st] DeCor Star #13:

2.95

14.Spica : 29Vir58'58 " - 2:03'15 " [ 1st] AlVir Star #14:

0.97

15.Arcturu: 0Lib22'30 " +30:44'00 " [ 2nd] AlBoo Star

#15: -0.04

16.ioLib : 27Lib08'38 " - 1:50'58 " [ 2nd] ioLib Star #16:

4.54

17.Dschubb: 8Sco42'34 " - 1:59'09 " [ 3rd] DeSco Star #17:

2.32

18.Antares: 15Sco54'00 " - 4:34'11 " [ 3rd] AlSco Star #18:

0.96

19.Shaula : 0Sag43'23 " -13:47'17 " [ 4th] LaSco Star #19:

1.63

20.Kaus Me: 10Sag43'05 " - 6:28'20 " [ 4th] DeSag Star #20:

2.70

21.Nunki : 18Sag31'21 " - 3:26'58 " [ 4th] SiSag Star #21:

2.02

Ab.Vega : 21Sag26'50 " +61:44'00 " [ 4th] AlLyr Star #22:

0.03

22.Altair : 7Cap54'47 " +29:18'16 " [ 5th] AlAqu Star #23:

0.77

23.Rotanev: 22Cap28'43 " +31:55'12 " [ 5th] BeDel Star #24:

3.64

24.LaAqu : 17Aqu42'59 " - 0:23'12 " [ 6th] LaAqu Star #25:

3.74

25.Markeb : 29Aqu37'36 " +19:24'28 " [ 6th] AlPeg Star #26:

2.49

26.Algenib: 15Pis17'56 " +12:36'04 " [ 7th] GaPeg Star #27:

2.83

27.Revati : 26Pis01'17 " - 0:12'49 " [ 7th] ZePis Star #28:

5.24

 

--

Regards,

François

[Guest guest]

At 12:22 AM 1/9/08 -0500, Francois wrote:

>

>Actually, when one unzip the file, the nakshatra files are already in the

> " userdata " «directory», where they have to be. Just unzip the file in

>SFDeluxe «main directory» and it should go at right place. (for version 6,

>of course!).

 

O.K. easy enough! The extra ring file you posted is very nice, very easy to

read and understand.

 

>The name of the stars have been changed to the degree which begin the

>nakshatra they belong to. I have put an example of the output (Rick Houck)

>in the file section of our . So, if we look at the chart, on the

>first degree of Sagittarius, at the outside, we see " 00:00 K 00°43 " . The

>first degree (00:00) stands for the begining of nakshatra (0° Sag), " K " is

>the letter of the Starlord (Ketu) and " 00°43 " is the sidereal longitude of

>the fiducial Star (here, Shaula ou lambda Scorpionis).

>

>Actually I am waiting for Shubhakaran's books on nakshatra, I will see after

>I got them from «Vedic Books» (they are very slow on delivery! I miss Shiv

>Chadha Manorama Occult!). The other reliable book on naksh I have is

>Harness'. In a copy of Jyestha from Shubhakaran's I have read, I recognize

>totally myself, which helped me for rectification (done by a talented

>Belgium jyotishi, M.-C. Sclifet).

 

I checked my bookshelf. I do have Shubhakaran's books, but apparently I

never really studied them. Astroamerica.com is excellent for sending out

books quickly. But if you are living in France...?

 

I will answer the ayanamsa question in another post, as it's very late

tonight.

 

Thank you for the star list below! Tomorrow I'll compare the positions with

my list.

 

Therese

 

>... However, I

>have work the fixtars file of the freeware Astrolog (version 5.41H from

>Valentin Abramov) which I also use extensively. So here are the positions

>for jan. 1, 2000. Swiss Ephemeris. The first number of each line refer to

>the nakshatra number.

>

>Astrolog 5.41H chart for

>Sat Jan 1, 2000 0:00:00 (ST +0:00 GMT) 0:00:00W 0:00:00N

>

>Body Location Ret. Latitude Rul. House Rul. Velocity Magnitude

>01.Sherata: 10Ari06'55 " + 8:29'17 " [ 8th] BeAri Star # 1:

>2.64

>02.35 Arie: 23Ari04'53 " +11:18'52 " [ 8th] 35Ari Star # 2:

>0.00

>03.Alcyone: 6Tau08'23 " + 4:03'04 " [ 9th] etTau Star # 3:

>2.87

>04.Aldebar: 15Tau56'14 " - 5:28'03 " [ 9th] alTau Star # 4:

>0.85

>05.Heka : 29Tau51'22 " -13:22'10 " [ 9th] LaOri Star # 5:

>3.66

>06.Betelge: 4Gem54'12 " -16:01'38 " [10th] alOri Star # 6:

>0.50

>07.Pollux : 29Gem21'51 " + 6:41'02 " [10th] BeGem Star # 7:

>1.14

>08.Asel.Au: 14Can52'12 " + 0:04'38 " [11th] DeCan Star # 8:

>3.94

>09.EpHyd : 18Can29'34 " -11:06'13 " [11th] EpHyd Star # 9:

>0.00

>10.Regulus: 5Leo58'33 " + 0:27'53 " [12th] AlLeo Star #10:

>1.35

>11.Zosma : 17Leo27'45 " +14:19'56 " [12th] DeLeo Star #11:

>2.56

>12.Denebol: 27Leo45'44 " +12:15'57 " [12th] BeLeo Star #12:

>2.14

>13.Algorab: 19Vir35'39 " -12:11'42 " [ 1st] DeCor Star #13:

>2.95

>14.Spica : 29Vir58'58 " - 2:03'15 " [ 1st] AlVir Star #14:

>0.97

>15.Arcturu: 0Lib22'30 " +30:44'00 " [ 2nd] AlBoo Star

>#15: -0.04

>16.ioLib : 27Lib08'38 " - 1:50'58 " [ 2nd] ioLib Star #16:

>4.54

>17.Dschubb: 8Sco42'34 " - 1:59'09 " [ 3rd] DeSco Star #17:

>2.32

>18.Antares: 15Sco54'00 " - 4:34'11 " [ 3rd] AlSco Star #18:

>0.96

>19.Shaula : 0Sag43'23 " -13:47'17 " [ 4th] LaSco Star #19:

>1.63

>20.Kaus Me: 10Sag43'05 " - 6:28'20 " [ 4th] DeSag Star #20:

>2.70

>21.Nunki : 18Sag31'21 " - 3:26'58 " [ 4th] SiSag Star #21:

>2.02

>Ab.Vega : 21Sag26'50 " +61:44'00 " [ 4th] AlLyr Star #22:

>0.03

>22.Altair : 7Cap54'47 " +29:18'16 " [ 5th] AlAqu Star #23:

>0.77

>23.Rotanev: 22Cap28'43 " +31:55'12 " [ 5th] BeDel Star #24:

>3.64

>24.LaAqu : 17Aqu42'59 " - 0:23'12 " [ 6th] LaAqu Star #25:

>3.74

>25.Markeb : 29Aqu37'36 " +19:24'28 " [ 6th] AlPeg Star #26:

>2.49

>26.Algenib: 15Pis17'56 " +12:36'04 " [ 7th] GaPeg Star #27:

>2.83

>27.Revati : 26Pis01'17 " - 0:12'49 " [ 7th] ZePis Star #28:

>5.24

>

[Guest guest]

Francois, this is a continuation of my last e-mail.

 

At 12:22 AM 1/9/08 -0500, you wrote:

>> [Therese wrote:] If you've followed Surya Siddhanta, then some of the

stars are no

>longer in today's 27 equal lunar mansions. I've made a new list of all the

>longitudes of the stars, and which mansions they fall in...

 

>[Francois wrote:] Actually, I wonder if this has not to do with the

ayanamsha we choose.

 

[Therese} The original asterisms or nakshatras were single stars or groups

of stars. It's an artifical overlay to equally divide the ecliptic into 27

or 28 divisions. Nevertheless, the match is close with the 27-fold

division. Only three mansions have no fiducial stars:

 

Ardra in Gemini

Swati in Libra

Jyeshta in Scorpio

 

Three mansions get double stars:

 

Mrig in Taurus-Gemini

Chitra in Virgo-Libra

Anuradha in Scorpio

 

If Raman's ayanamsa is used, then Jyeshta gets Antares rather than

Anuradha. There is no way that Spica and Arcturus can be in different

mansions with today's ayanamsas if the measurement is along the ecliptic

(as the mansions are measured today).

 

The discussion of the asterisms in Surya Siddhanta is excellent.

 

The only way to determine if the descriptions in Shil Ponde's book and

Shubhakaran's book are accurate is to do lots of testing. There is no

tradition for most of the statements in either book, so I have no idea

where the intepretations came from. Surya Siddhanta mostly only gives

ruling dieties. All the newer interpretations on the nakshatras are later

overlays whose sources are lost. Did an astrologer make them up? Did an

astrologer receive special intuitive revelations? Are they based on

observation? Only a lot of testing will tell. The nakshatras are a

fascinating study.

 

Are star meanings distinct from the mansions? Or do the fiducial star

meanings carry through the entire mansion? What about all the other stars

that are located in each mansion?

 

Thanks for the discussion, Francois.

 

Therese