Do Sidereal sun sign threshold dates depend on the year?

November 24, 2007

I've been looking around the internet but I have not been able to find out how

the dates are different for different dears. Some sites say give these dates:

ARIES 4-15

TAURUS 05-15

GEMINI 06-16

CANCER 07-17

LEO 08-17

VIRGO 09-17

LIBRA 10-17

SCORPIO 11-17

SAGITTARIUS 12-16

CAPRICORN 1-15

AQUARIUS 2-15

PISCES 3-15

Another site says the dates are the following:

Aries

Taurus

Gemini

Cancer

Leo

Virgo

Libra

Scorpio

Sagittarius

Capricorn

Aquarius

Pisces

Apr 14

May 13

Jun 15

Jul 15

Aug

16

Sep 16

Oct 16

Nov 15

Dec 15

Jan 14

Feb 13

Mar 13

Which calendar is correct? If they are both correct then which years are they

for? What is the pattern for figuring out which calendar is right for which

year?

I would really appreciate your explanation of this matter.

sincerely,

Jonathan Riley

November 24, 2007

At 08:07 PM 11/23/07 -0800, Jonathan Rilen wrote:

>I've been looking around the internet but I have not been able to find out

how the dates are different for different years. Some sites say give these

dates:

>

> ARIES 4-15

> TAURUS 05-15

> GEMINI 06-16

> CANCER 07-17

> LEO 08-17

> VIRGO 09-17

> LIBRA 10-17

> SCORPIO 11-17

> SAGITTARIUS 12-16

> CAPRICORN 1-15

> AQUARIUS 2-15

> PISCES 3-15

(...)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Jonathan,

Date differences are due to two reasons:

(1) Leap year will change the dates when the Sun enters a new sidereal

sign. The same happens in the tropical zodiac.

(2) However, the main reason that different sites give different start

dates for the signs is because different ayanamsas are used, ayanamsa being

the difference between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs. There is

approximately a degree's difference between the Fagan-Bradley and

Lahiri/Krishnamurti ayanamsas. So the date when the sun enters the sidereal

signs will be a day earlier for the Lahiri ayanamsa and a day later for

Fagan-Bradley.

The little used Raman ayanamsa will give start dates two days before

Fagan-Bradley. Confusing?? Yes!! The controversy over the ayanamsa is one

of the main reasons astrologers stay with the tropical zodiac.

If you have additional questions, please feel free to ask. Perhaps someone

else can give a more detailed explanation, but the crux of the question is

in the ayanamsa. The calendar doesn't change, but the beginning of the

sidereal zodiac depends on the ayanamsa.

Sincerely,

Therese

November 24, 2007

Thanks very much Therese for your help. Which system do you think is more

correct? The one with the slightly earlier dates or the one with most days

starting on the 15th and 17th?

Jonathan Riley

therese hamilton <eastwest

Friday, November 23, 2007 9:18:04 PM

Re: Do Sidereal sun sign threshold dates depend on

the year?

At 08:07 PM 11/23/07 -0800, Jonathan Rilen wrote:

>I've been looking around the internet but I have not been able to find out

how the dates are different for different years. Some sites say give these

dates:

>

> ARIES 4-15

> TAURUS 05-15

> GEMINI 06-16

> CANCER 07-17

> LEO 08-17

> VIRGO 09-17

> LIBRA 10-17

> SCORPIO 11-17

> SAGITTARIUS 12-16

> CAPRICORN 1-15

> AQUARIUS 2-15

> PISCES 3-15

(...)

~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

Hi Jonathan,

Date differences are due to two reasons:

(1) Leap year will change the dates when the Sun enters a new sidereal

sign. The same happens in the tropical zodiac.

(2) However, the main reason that different sites give different start

dates for the signs is because different ayanamsas are used, ayanamsa being

the difference between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs. There is

approximately a degree's difference between the Fagan-Bradley and

Lahiri/Krishnamurti ayanamsas. So the date when the sun enters the sidereal

signs will be a day earlier for the Lahiri ayanamsa and a day later for

Fagan-Bradley.

The little used Raman ayanamsa will give start dates two days before

Fagan-Bradley. Confusing?? Yes!! The controversy over the ayanamsa is one

of the main reasons astrologers stay with the tropical zodiac.

If you have additional questions, please feel free to ask. Perhaps someone

else can give a more detailed explanation, but the crux of the question is

in the ayanamsa. The calendar doesn't change, but the beginning of the

sidereal zodiac depends on the ayanamsa.

Sincerely,

Therese

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November 24, 2007

Jon, perhaps your question boils down the question of What is the

difference between the Tropical Zodiac and the Sidereal Zodiac?

The first thing I think it helps to understand is that Astrology is

both a science and an art. I have always thought of astrology

as " astronomy-plus. " Astrology is all the computer calculations and

space telescopes and lonely observatories that comprise astronomy—

which for the most part simply locate the positions of the planets,

stars and other objects in the universe—the `PLUS' means that

astrology goes several steps further into the MEANING and IMPORT of

each body's presence and the further calculation and interpretation

of the MEANING and IMPORT of their positions among themselves and us

on this our planet, Earth.

What does this mean? It means that anyone interested in Astrology

needs to have a grounding in its " basics, " and that's Astronomy.

Astronomy is Astrology 101. You should have a basic understanding of

the items talked about and the terms used, and a perfunctory

knowledge of spherical geometry would help.

Now that you know the names of the planets and the constellations

and can go out and pick them out in the night sky now, you need to

understand their movement and be able to calculate their positions

where they were in the past and where they will be in the future.

This study will lead you into the study of History and Archeology;

Sociology and Paleontology; Psychology and Physiology--and then you

are into Mythology and you will suddenly find yourself in the

company of the ancient Gods and Heroes and fables and storybooks

will come alive! You will be one with them and accepted by them and

you can converse and learn many insights and emerge a much better

person than when you entered this Hall of Learning—the skies above

you! Within which you live and move and have your being.

Am I saying that Astrology is mystical? Yes, and you can go with

that wherever it may take you. Is Astrology scientific? Yes—and

more. Astrology is metaphysical, which means " beyond physics " —or,

again, " physics-PLUS " . There is a planet there ho-hum, physics say,

but the astrologer sees it has MEANING and there is a MEANING why it

is in that place and further there is a MEANING in its interaction

with other likewise MEANINGFUL bodies up there. Just like us...me

and thee...

In other words, life is a mystery that has meaning, everything has

meaning, and astrology is one excellent " key " to unlocking that

mystery.

Now back to the question: " What is the difference between the

Tropical Zodiac and the Sidereal Zodiac? "

If you have done your homework, the answer lies in the definitions

of `Zodiac' and `Precession of the Equinoxes', where the

actual `difference' (in degrees) of annual motion is expressed by

the word `precession' or the Indian word `ayanamsa' as Therese said.

If you were to Google " Precession of the Equinoxes " you would find

this in Wikipedia:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_of_the_equinoxes>

" Currently, this annual motion is about 50.3 seconds of arc per year

or 1 degree every 71.6 years. The process is slow, but cumulative. A

complete precession cycle covers a period of approximately 25,765

years, the so called Platonic year, during which time the equinox

regresses a full 360° through all twelve constellations of the

zodiac. "

An interesting question is: Which `Zodiac' moves, the Tropical or

the Sidereal? Most astrologers would tell you that the Sidereal is

the one that moves and the Tropical is `fixed'; others would say the

opposite. My way of thinking is that they both move, since

everything in the universe is moving [to split hairs], but since the

Sidereal Zodiac by definition is comprised of the `fixed' stars—and

since Precession itself is defined by the warp and wobble of the

movement of the planet Earth itself vis a vis everything else—I

think that seemingly paradoxically it is the Tropical Zodiac that

moves the most.

But what is moving? Actually there is only one Zodiac, one `belt' in

the sky wherein the planets of our solar system reside. The

difference is in where they start: Where is the Vernal starting

point which is 0 degrees Aries in the Tropical Zodiac. Where is 0

degrees in the Sidereal constellation Aries?

They both are, in essence, imaginary points. One because it is a

mathematical point determined by the Earth's movement; the other is

a more-or-less agreed upon special point in the heavens where the

constellation Aries begins. The former is the beginning of the

Tropical zodiac, the latter the Sidereal.

Without going any further into it, one thing is certain and that is

that they are currently separating at the rate of " 50.3 seconds of

arc per year, or one degree every 71.6 years. "

When did they coincide? That bit of wisdom multiplied by the present

rate of precession will give you the present difference between the

two zodiacs. However, estimates vary from approximately 300 B.C. to

300 A.D. as the coinciding date, so you have to [study it and]

decide for yourself. That is the reason for the

differing `ayanamsas' today.

Again, if you were to Google `Ayanamsa' you will find an interesting

discussion in Wikipedia which should bring you up to speed on

everybody's thinking.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayanamsa>

So, Jon, the short answer to your question, " Do Sidereal sun sign

threshold dates depend on the year " is a resounding " YES! " Though it

depends upon which 'Ayanamsa' you choose to use as the the exact

amount.

Today it is roughly 24 degrees. If you are looking at the chart and

planetary positions of an adult born, say, 30 to 50 years ago, then

if you were to subtract 24 degrees from every zodiacal position then

you would have a good approximation of their Sidereal " signs " —though

in this case you would be speaking of " constellations " would you not—

and there we go again?

I hope I haven't raised more questions than I tried to answer! But

maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing, either.

Best Regards,

DR

, Jon Riley

<jrtokyo1988 wrote:

>

> I've been looking around the internet but I have not been able to

find out how the dates are different for different dears. Some sites

say give these dates:

>

> ARIES 4-15

> TAURUS 05-15

> GEMINI 06-16

> CANCER 07-17

> LEO 08-17

> VIRGO 09-17

> LIBRA 10-17

> SCORPIO 11-17

> SAGITTARIUS 12-16

> CAPRICORN 1-15

> AQUARIUS 2-15

> PISCES 3-15

>

> Another site says the dates are the following:

>

> Aries

> Taurus

> Gemini

> Cancer

> Leo

> Virgo

> Libra

> Scorpio

> Sagittarius

> Capricorn

> Aquarius

> Pisces

>

> Apr 14

> May 13

> Jun 15

> Jul 15

> Aug

> 16

> Sep 16

> Oct 16

> Nov 15

> Dec 15

> Jan 14

> Feb 13

> Mar 13

> Which calendar is correct? If they are both correct then which

years are they for? What is the pattern for figuring out which

calendar is right for which year?

>

> I would really appreciate your explanation of this matter.

>

> sincerely,

>

> Jonathan Riley

>

November 24, 2007

At 09:19 AM 11/24/07 -0800, you wrote:

>Thanks very much Therese for your help. Which system do you think is more

correct? The one with the slightly earlier dates or the one with most days

starting on the 15th and 17th?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Jonathan,

I started to research the ayanamsa way back in the 70s. I used

Fagan-Bradley for awhile (later dates), but when I started to study India's

astrology I found that Lahiri (earlier dates) gave better results with the

predictive 'dasa' planetary periods system. Finally after more research I

changed to Krishnamurti, a slight modification from Lahiri. I've found that

ingress charts (when the Sun first enters a sign) to be very important with

Krishnamurti for natural cataclysms such as the loss of New Orleans and

major earthquakes in the world.

However, this site is owned by a man who uses the western Fagan-Bradley

ayanamsa, and no doubt he and others will swear by that ayanamsa and the

later start dates. So it's all up to individual research and preference.

I saw that you were on moderated status, so I placed you on unmoderated

status so that there will no longer be a delays if you post messages again.

Sincerely,

Therese

November 24, 2007

So are these dates accurate?

Aries

Taurus

Gemini

Cancer

Leo

Virgo

Libra

Scorpio

Sagittarius

Capricorn

Aquarius

Pisces

Apr 14

May 13

Jun 15

Jul 15

Aug

16

Sep 16

Oct 16

Nov 15

Dec 15

Jan 14

Feb 13

Mar 13

therese hamilton <eastwest

Saturday, November 24, 2007 1:43:28 PM

Re: Do Sidereal sun sign threshold dates depend on

the year?

At 09:19 AM 11/24/07 -0800, you wrote:

>Thanks very much Therese for your help. Which system do you think is more

correct? The one with the slightly earlier dates or the one with most days

starting on the 15th and 17th?

~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

Hi Jonathan,

I started to research the ayanamsa way back in the 70s. I used

Fagan-Bradley for awhile (later dates), but when I started to study India's

astrology I found that Lahiri (earlier dates) gave better results with the

predictive 'dasa' planetary periods system. Finally after more research I

changed to Krishnamurti, a slight modification from Lahiri. I've found that

ingress charts (when the Sun first enters a sign) to be very important with

Krishnamurti for natural cataclysms such as the loss of New Orleans and

major earthquakes in the world.

However, this site is owned by a man who uses the western Fagan-Bradley

ayanamsa, and no doubt he and others will swear by that ayanamsa and the

later start dates. So it's all up to individual research and preference.

I saw that you were on moderated status, so I placed you on unmoderated

status so that there will no longer be a delays if you post messages again.

Sincerely,

Therese

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November 24, 2007

Thank you for your comprehensive explanation. I'm bad in math though. Would you

tell me an easy way to tell which day the signs change depending on the year?

like 1960, 1880 or 1980 for example?

Aries

Taurus

Gemini

Cancer

Leo

Virgo

Libra

Scorpio

Sagittarius

Capricorn

Aquarius

Pisces

Apr 14

May 13

Jun 15

Jul 15

Aug

16

Sep 16

Oct 16

Nov 15

Dec 15

Jan 14

Feb 13

Mar 13

Which year is the above zodiac for?

- Jonathan Riley

Don Ridgway <scribe

Saturday, November 24, 2007 11:40:06 AM