Mansions/Stars/Parans

[Guest guest]

At 05:33 AM 5/4/06 -0000, Julia wrote:

 

>... Now it makes sense to

>consider that the yogatara stars are the focus for consideration of

>conjunctions, and maybe nakshatras as 27 equal compartments when

>looking at placement of the moon. Swati, as the star Arcturus, need

>not necessarily reside within Swati, the nakshatra.

 

But how would we use Arcturus and Spica astrologically since they have the

same ecliptic longitude, but supposedly different interpretations? Svathi

(Arcturus) and Chitra (Spica) have two different interpretations, but they

both fall ecliptically in Chitra. Well, I can speak for Svathi, and you can

speak for Chitra. The description of Svathi pretty much suits me as well as

the symbol--a young shoot swaying in the breeze--as per deFouw and Svoboda

p. 232-233 (I've been called 'the embodiment of change.')

 

How about you and Chitra? It seems that neither of these descriptions are

necessarily linked to the junction stars of the old nakshatras. One

wonders: Where did they come from? SS gives only the ruling deities.

 

When I get my copier fixed--have to send it to Oregon--I'll photocopy the

nakshatra pages from SS for you. Or, if you prefer, I can send you the

master pages before I enlarged them, you can do the copying yourself and

then return the masters. Let me know what you prefer. I think you'd find

the material fascinating. I don't know how long it will take to ship and

repair my copier.

 

>I'll look for it [skyMap], thanks!

 

I always buy the lite edition of astronomy programs. They're cheaper,

faster and I don't need coordinates for 10 million stars. The SkyMap site

has screen shots. Recently the author has made an alternate screen of

slightly blurry stars. The other setting gives clear star circles of

different colors. I don't know what's on the site now--haven't looked

lately. I believe that Starry Night has gone platinum--big, comprehensive

and expensive. My version is nice and simple and has all the artwork for

the constellations.

 

>You're right, the expansion/contraction parallel is much more to the

>point. I've seen exaltation points for Rahu and Ketu given as 3º of

>Gemini and Sagittarius. That would be very close to the points where

>the plane of the Milky Way crosses the ecliptic!

 

Wonder if that's the key to their exaltation??

 

>Bernadette Brady's keyword phrases are more neutral valued

>and descriptive. Her work with whole-sky " parans " is truly of

>interest. I've been tempted to buy the " Starlight " software that

>searches out and lists all the parans --- rather cumbersome to try

>with general astronomy programs.

 

I go round and about regarding Brady. There can be so many parans in one

chart if you use rise/set/culminating/anti-culminating. Someone sent me my

Starlight printout, and there were only a couple descriptions that really

fit. I don't know about parans because unless you live in a very flat

place, how do you know when a star rises? And are parans any more

descriptive than ecliptic longitude? So many astro problems yet to solve...

 

Julia, I'll reply to your e-mail tonight after I've had the opportunity to

visit your web site. My server is slow loading during the daytime hours.

Dial-up.

 

Blessings,

Therese

[Guest guest]

That's a very significant point! By Ecliptic longitude, Arcturus and

Spica differ only by 40 minutes of arc, a bit more than the moon's

apparent diameter. Sometimes an orb of 1º30' is suggested, so there

would be a zone of overlap around the stars, with one or another

stronger. There is certain overlap in the meanings given. Both are

termed " intuitive " . Chitra is " intelligent " but Swati is " scholarly " .

Chitra is said to be " artistic; enterprising; conversationalist; an

organizer " and Swati is more " independent; modest; self-controlled " .

Anne Wright quotes Ebertin: " a blend of mutual influences is

frequently given ... Spica ... may get more positive character by its

blending with Arcturus. "

 

On the other hand, if one is an ancient astrologer, observing the

heavens from a watchtower-observatory, whether in India or the Near

East, Spica is just 2º " south " (perpendicular distance) of the

ecliptic while Arcturus is nearly 31º " north " . Spica will rise and set

fairly much in sync with its projected ecliptic degree. Arcturus will

show a lot of difference, if one looks for the actual star near the

horizon. This element of the use of " parans " may be of interest. The

part of waiting until each planet culminates and checking then what's

rising or setting --- that's questionable, becuase we're looking hours

after the moment of birth. To see what was the real practice, a lot of

testing of alternate hypotheses is needed. It seems uncertain what

approach was used, but probably they're really watching the " stars of

the hour " and perhaps compililing tables from that, good for a

particular latitude.

 

Looking at bits of Eastern and Western delineations for Chitra &

Swati, it does seem that the Chitra description is much more on

target, even though my sun/moon conjunction is closer to Swati,

longitudinally. This does fall in the Chitra nakshatra though, by most

measures. My companion is more of the Swati type, which follows

nakshatra placement ... small-scale anecdotal, but maybe it does

suggest an answer. Maybe Vedic astrologers don't look much at the

skies these days, but the basic model of nakshatras might be the real

picture, possibly with the stars contained in each imparting something

to the nakshatra's distinct flavor. I'm still studying it casually and

pondering

 

, therese hamilton

<eastwest wrote:

>

> At 05:33 AM 5/4/06 -0000, Julia wrote:

>

> >... Now it makes sense to

> >consider that the yogatara stars are the focus for consideration of

> >conjunctions, and maybe nakshatras as 27 equal compartments when

> >looking at placement of the moon. Swati, as the star Arcturus, need

> >not necessarily reside within Swati, the nakshatra.

>

> But how would we use Arcturus and Spica astrologically since they

have the

> same ecliptic longitude, but supposedly different interpretations?

Svathi

> (Arcturus) and Chitra (Spica) have two different interpretations,

but they

> both fall ecliptically in Chitra. Well, I can speak for Svathi, and

you can

> speak for Chitra. The description of Svathi pretty much suits me as

well as

> the symbol--a young shoot swaying in the breeze--as per deFouw and

Svoboda

> p. 232-233 (I've been called 'the embodiment of change.')

>

> How about you and Chitra? It seems that neither of these

descriptions are

> necessarily linked to the junction stars of the old nakshatras. One

> wonders: Where did they come from? SS gives only the ruling deities.

>

> When I get my copier fixed--have to send it to Oregon--I'll

photocopy the

> nakshatra pages from SS for you. Or, if you prefer, I can send you

the

> master pages before I enlarged them, you can do the copying yourself

and

> then return the masters. Let me know what you prefer. I think you'd

find

> the material fascinating. I don't know how long it will take to ship

and

> repair my copier.

>

> >I'll look for it [skyMap], thanks!

>

> I always buy the lite edition of astronomy programs. They're

cheaper,

> faster and I don't need coordinates for 10 million stars. The SkyMap

site

> has screen shots. Recently the author has made an alternate screen

of

> slightly blurry stars. The other setting gives clear star circles of

> different colors. I don't know what's on the site now--haven't

looked

> lately. I believe that Starry Night has gone platinum--big,

comprehensive

> and expensive. My version is nice and simple and has all the artwork

for

> the constellations.

>

> >You're right, the expansion/contraction parallel is much more to

the

> >point. I've seen exaltation points for Rahu and Ketu given as 3º of

> >Gemini and Sagittarius. That would be very close to the points

where

> >the plane of the Milky Way crosses the ecliptic!

>

> Wonder if that's the key to their exaltation??

>

> >Bernadette Brady's keyword phrases are more neutral valued

> >and descriptive. Her work with whole-sky " parans " is truly of

> >interest. I've been tempted to buy the " Starlight " software that

> >searches out and lists all the parans --- rather cumbersome to try

> >with general astronomy programs.

>

> I go round and about regarding Brady. There can be so many parans in

one

> chart if you use rise/set/culminating/anti-culminating. Someone sent

me my

> Starlight printout, and there were only a couple descriptions that

really

> fit. I don't know about parans because unless you live in a very

flat

> place, how do you know when a star rises? And are parans any more

> descriptive than ecliptic longitude? So many astro problems yet to

solve...

>

> Julia, I'll reply to your e-mail tonight after I've had the

opportunity to

> visit your web site. My server is slow loading during the daytime

hours.

> Dial-up.

>

> Blessings,

> Therese

>

[Guest guest]

At 04:46 AM 5/7/06 -0000, Julia wrote:

>That's a very significant point! By Ecliptic longitude, Arcturus and

>Spica differ only by 40 minutes of arc...

 

Hi Julia,

 

Actually it's only 23 minutes.

 

>Sometimes an orb of 1º30' is suggested, so there

>would be a zone of overlap around the stars, with one or another

>stronger.

 

They're both definitely in the same half degree of the zodiac in the lunar

house of Chitra. That degree should somehow be very significant

astrologically. It probably avoids confusion to call the modern day Indian

nakshatras 'lunar houses' or 'lunar mansions' since the ancient nakshatras

were only very specific stars or asterisms. (The Jyotish books confuse in

this respect.)

 

There is certain overlap in the meanings given. Both are

>termed " intuitive " . Chitra is " intelligent " but Swati is " scholarly " .

>Chitra is said to be " artistic; enterprising; conversationalist; an

>organizer " and Swati is more " independent; modest; self-controlled " .

 

I think we have to distinguish between the old nakshatras (Spica and

Arcturus) and the modern day mansions. The meanings above belong to the

27-fold lunar mansions, but have no relationship to Spica and Arcturus as

such. (Except that Chitra's delineation may relate to *both* stars.)

According to Sanskrit scholar Valerie Roebuck (The Circle of Stars)

Minaraja (c. 4th centure CE) was the first to record the significance of

the lunar mansions in natal astrology. The 4th century is far removed from

earlier writings on the nakshatars where only the ruling deities were

mentioned.

 

>On the other hand, if one is an ancient astrologer, observing the

>heavens from a watchtower-observatory, whether in India or the Near

>East, Spica is just 2º " south " (perpendicular distance) of the

>ecliptic while Arcturus is nearly 31º " north " . Spica will rise and set

>fairly much in sync with its projected ecliptic degree. Arcturus will

>show a lot of difference, if one looks for the actual star near the

>horizon. This element of the use of " parans " may be of interest.

 

Parans would be the only way to distinguish Spica from Arcturus, but from

Surya Sidddhanta we know the nakshatras were measured in ecliptic

longitude. We can safely say that India was a bit confused on the location

of the nakshatra stars in relation to the ecliptic.

 

We don't know the origins of Minaraja's natal interpretations. We only know

that is the first time they appeared in writing.

 

>Looking at bits of Eastern and Western delineations for Chitra &

>Swati, it does seem that the Chitra description is much more on

>target...

 

That would be the lunar mansion of Chitra. Likewise, Swati's interpretation

suits me very well. So the two very bright stars belong to Chitra, whereas

Swati contains stars in the feet of Virgo and the Southern Cross. These

constellations seem to be the basis of Swati's interpretation rather than

Arcturus, which has somewhere along the way become combined with Spica. So

in Chitra we have a very bright significant mansion. This mansion is also

extremely significant as a marker for the sidereal zodiac since Spica falls

at the boundary of Virgo-Libra. Pisces-Aries has no significant marking star.

 

<...My companion is more of the Swati type, which follows

>nakshatra placement ...

 

Just now I set up the horosocope for the data you gave in your previous

post. Whereas the Moon and Neptune are in Swati, Jupiter, Venus and the Sun

are in Vishaka, the true location of the starry Scales. I'm wondering if

you can throw some light on how these two mansions manifest in relation to

Moon/Neptune and Jupiter/Venus/Sun? Those two adjoining mansions are very

different from each other.

 

Vishaka should be quite important since the Ascendant lord is there along

with the 4th lord, 9th lord Sun and Venus as lord of 6th and 11th. The Moon

may be related more to personality and Ju/Ve/Su to actual events in the

life involving the houses ruled by those three planets. Or does Vishaka

also reflect personality in this case?

 

>...but the basic model of nakshatras might be the real

>picture, possibly with the stars contained in each imparting something

>to the nakshatra's distinct flavor.

 

Yes, I believe that's a major key to today's lunar mansions. I've been

studying the location of the actual constellations in each mansion rather

than the supposed location (often incorrct) of the old nakshatra stars in

today's mansions.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Oops, my mistake! I somehow overlooked that this calculation was not

in minutes but in hundredths of a degree ... the longitudinal

separation of Spica and Arcturus is indeed 23' and increasing.

 

, therese hamilton

<eastwest wrote:

>

> At 04:46 AM 5/7/06 -0000, Julia wrote:

> >That's a very significant point! By Ecliptic longitude, Arcturus

and

> >Spica differ only by 40 minutes of arc...

>

> Hi Julia,

>

> Actually it's only 23 minutes.

 

> Parans would be the only way to distinguish Spica from Arcturus, but

from Surya Sidddhanta we know the nakshatras were measured in ecliptic

longitude. We can safely say that India was a bit confused on the

location of the nakshatra stars in relation to the ecliptic.

>

> <...My companion is more of the Swati type, which follows

> >nakshatra placement ...

>

> Just now I set up the horosocope for the data you gave in your

previous post. Whereas the Moon and Neptune are in Swati, Jupiter,

Venus and the Sun are in Vishaka, the true location of the starry

Scales. I'm wondering if you can throw some light on how these two

mansions manifest in relation to Moon/Neptune and Jupiter/Venus/Sun?

Those two adjoining mansions are very different from each other.

 

Definitely the personality is more in accord with the moon position in

the Swati mansion, more " intuitive/modest/skilled/charitable " without

the more energetic triats of the clever politician that would be

expected from Vishaka.

>

> Vishaka should be quite important since the Ascendant lord is there

along with the 4th lord, 9th lord Sun and Venus as lord of 6th and

11th. The Moon may be related more to personality and Ju/Ve/Su to

actual events in the life involving the houses ruled by those three

planets...

 

This looks correct ... majored in philosophy and history of art; drawn

to Egyptian religious forms; enthusiasm for travel; work involves

clothing/creative expression.

 

> I've been studying the location of the actual constellations in each

mansion rather than the supposed location (often incorrct) of the old

nakshatra stars in today's mansions.

>

I saw one scholarly paper by an Indian researcher which suggested that

the nakshatra stars might be incorrectly identified in modern terms,

but his efforts didn't seem greatly better in that respect.

[Guest guest]

At 06:07 AM 5/9/06 -0000, Julia wrote:

>

>Definitely the personality is more in accord with the moon position in

>the Swati mansion, more " intuitive/modest/skilled/charitable " without

>the more energetic triats of the clever politician that would be

>expected from Vishaka.

 

This then emphasizes that it really is the mansion of the *Moon* that tones

the personality rather than say, a stellium not involving the Moon, in

another mansion.

 

>I saw one scholarly paper by an Indian researcher which suggested that

>the nakshatra stars might be incorrectly identified in modern terms,

>but his efforts didn't seem greatly better in that respect.

 

I suppose the key point is that today's interpretations of mansion

characteristics evolved long after certain stars were assigned to the

ancient nakshatras. So it would seem that if the stars themselves have

anything to do with today's mansions, it would be the stars and

constellations actually within the mansion boundaries that correlate with

the interpretations. So we have two harmonic zodiacs: The 12-fold signs and

the 27-fold lunar zodiac working together to tone degree areas.

 

The ancient nakshatra stars may have no other meaning than that they were

used as omens, to trace the path of the moon and to predict weather

patterns and other mundane events.

 

Therese