Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 For newbies to the sidereal zodiac, I've written some notes on Tom DeLay for the AstroDababank site: http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/Feedback.asp?ChartID=49627 Tom DeLay Feedback (Chart data is on the link above) ---------- ---- Therese H 5/9/2005 As anyone who has known me over the years knows, I'm always looking for ways to throw light on the zodiac question. Tom DeLay's chart turns out to be one of the best working charts for this. I've said many times that the key to the actual influence of either the Tropical or sidereal zodiac is the overlap of T-S signs at the end of the Tropical zodiac because the previous sidereal sign has the same observed traits as the Tropical sign which follows it. Using TomDeLay's chart as an example, this means that since his Ascendant, Jupiter and Moon are in late degrees of Tropical Scorpio, the interpretation of the sign would be like Tropical Sagittarius. This is because the observed traits of sidereal Scorpio are the same as those of Tropical Sagittarius since they are in the same area of the ecliptic. The final degrees of Tropical Scorpio fall in the zone of Sidereal Scorpio as does most of Tropical Sagittarius. I consulted some of my Tropical books and pulled out these traits for Scorpio: Reserved and subtle, can move quietly like a shadow Quiet; sensitive and easily hurt Likes to probe the psyche, so makes a good psychotheapist. Loves mysteries and the mystical, very interested in life and death Then I noted traits for Tropical Sagittarius: Freedom loving, dynamic, energetic Can rebel against authority Insensitive to others (focused on expending its energy) Gregarious, but has a temper; attracted to danger and challenges Can use the force of personality to coerce other people; Tremendous force of persuasion Then we have a partial Gauquelin take on Jupiter: (can be) angry; argumentative; assured; authoritative; communicates well; imperious; independent; opportunistic; powerful; (can be) tyrannical; self-confident; stubborn From the questions and ADB biography of DeLay: " Where in the chart is this ability to work and play hard, to win and become influential? " Particularly noted for his tenacity and for his heavy-handed, arm-twisting approach to politics; nicknamed " The Hammer. " In his formative years, developed a " passion for freedom " Propensity for having a good time in college, nicknamed " Hot-tub Tom " Resented government interference in his entrepreneur endeavors There is one overriding powerful angular configuration in DeLay's chart: the Jupiter-Moon (with Ketu-S Node) on the Scorpio ascendant. We can look hard, but where is Tropical Scorpio in DeLay's biography? The underlying sidereal sign here is sidereal Scorpio, which is like Tropical Sagittarius. If we put the traits of Jupiter listed above into an active and energetic sign ruled by Mars, we pretty much get the psychological picture of Tom De Lay. (The dishonesty and ethics questions fall into another astrological area.) I'm trying to show that the traditional traits associated with Tropical Scorpio don't describe Tom DeLay, but those of Sagittarius do. Possible conclusion: We're seeing the bleedthrough of the sidereal sign which is much stronger than the Tropical sign said to occupy that area of the ecliptic. We can picture in our minds Jupiter conjoined to the ascendant of a strongly Martian sign--sidereal Scorpio. I'd like to add one more observation regarding Mars as the primary lord of (sidereal) Scorpio. (Aries was considered the secondary sign of Mars at least up to the Renaissance--see Johannes Schoener). In HOROSCOPE SYMBOLS Robert Hand says that " The second type of [Tropical] Sagittarian has achieved a successful integration into the social order and is concerned with the fabric of that order. " (page 231) As a god Mars typically operated in the midst of an army. An army is a group of people all having the same aim, generally to conquer or defend. Sidereal Scorpio is an excellent sign for political endeavors, for it rules the mobilization of group energy. Tom DeLay has become the Republican whip, and is thoroughly integrated into the Republican party as well as his fundamentalist Christian group. The strongly Scorpio person is likely to find himself working with one or more groups of people for social, humane, political or religious causes. Sidereally speaking, Jupiter in Scorpio has combined the power and authoratative potential of Jupiter with an energetic Mars-ruled sign to place DeLay where he is today. Whether he'll be able to stay there is another question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 I don't have enough invested in this discussion of the " true " nature of signs to get into any long dialogue, Therese, but perhaps newcomers to the sidereal zodiac should at least know that yours is a minority view with the sidereal community. Most sidereal astrologers (east and west) simply take scorpio as scorpio without reference to the tropical zodiac. Chris --- therese92003 <eastwest wrote: > For newbies to the sidereal zodiac, I've written > some notes on Tom DeLay > for the AstroDababank site: > http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/Feedback.asp?ChartID=49627 > > Tom DeLay Feedback (Chart data is on the link above) > > ---------- > ---- > Therese H 5/9/2005 > > As anyone who has known me over the years knows, I'm > always looking for > ways to throw light on the zodiac question. Tom > DeLay's chart turns out to > be one of the best working charts for this. I've > said many times that the > key to the actual influence of either the Tropical > or sidereal zodiac is > the overlap of T-S signs at the end of the Tropical > zodiac because the > previous sidereal sign has the same observed traits > as the Tropical sign > which follows it. > > Using TomDeLay's chart as an example, this means > that since his Ascendant, > Jupiter and Moon are in late degrees of Tropical > Scorpio, the > interpretation of the sign would be like Tropical > Sagittarius. This is > because the observed traits of sidereal Scorpio are > the same as those of > Tropical Sagittarius since they are in the same area > of the ecliptic. The > final degrees of Tropical Scorpio fall in the zone > of Sidereal Scorpio as > does most of Tropical Sagittarius. > > I consulted some of my Tropical books and pulled out > these traits for Scorpio: > > Reserved and subtle, can move quietly like a shadow > Quiet; sensitive and easily hurt > Likes to probe the psyche, so makes a good > psychotheapist. > Loves mysteries and the mystical, very interested in > life and death > > Then I noted traits for Tropical Sagittarius: > > Freedom loving, dynamic, energetic > Can rebel against authority > Insensitive to others (focused on expending its > energy) > Gregarious, but has a temper; attracted to danger > and challenges > Can use the force of personality to coerce other > people; Tremendous force > of persuasion > > Then we have a partial Gauquelin take on Jupiter: > > (can be) angry; argumentative; assured; > authoritative; communicates well; > imperious; independent; opportunistic; powerful; > (can be) tyrannical; > self-confident; stubborn > > From the questions and ADB biography of DeLay: > > " Where in the chart is this ability to work and play > hard, to win and > become influential? " > Particularly noted for his tenacity and for his > heavy-handed, arm-twisting > approach to politics; nicknamed " The Hammer. " > In his formative years, developed a " passion for > freedom " > Propensity for having a good time in college, > nicknamed " Hot-tub Tom " > Resented government interference in his entrepreneur > endeavors > > There is one overriding powerful angular > configuration in DeLay's chart: > the Jupiter-Moon (with Ketu-S Node) on the Scorpio > ascendant. We can look > hard, but where is Tropical Scorpio in DeLay's > biography? The underlying > sidereal sign here is sidereal Scorpio, which is > like Tropical Sagittarius. > If we put the traits of Jupiter listed above into an > active and energetic > sign ruled by Mars, we pretty much get the > psychological picture of Tom De > Lay. (The dishonesty and ethics questions fall into > another astrological > area.) > > I'm trying to show that the traditional traits > associated with Tropical > Scorpio don't describe Tom DeLay, but those of > Sagittarius do. Possible > conclusion: We're seeing the bleedthrough of the > sidereal sign which is > much stronger than the Tropical sign said to occupy > that area of the > ecliptic. We can picture in our minds Jupiter > conjoined to the ascendant of > a strongly Martian sign--sidereal Scorpio. > > I'd like to add one more observation regarding Mars > as the primary lord of > (sidereal) Scorpio. (Aries was considered the > secondary sign of Mars at > least up to the Renaissance--see Johannes Schoener). > In HOROSCOPE SYMBOLS > Robert Hand says that " The second type of [Tropical] > Sagittarian has > achieved a successful integration into the social > order and is concerned > with the fabric of that order. " (page 231) > > As a god Mars typically operated in the midst of an > army. An army is a > group of people all having the same aim, generally > to conquer or defend. > Sidereal Scorpio is an excellent sign for political > endeavors, for it rules > the mobilization of group energy. Tom DeLay has > become the Republican whip, > and is thoroughly integrated into the Republican > party as well as his > fundamentalist Christian group. The strongly Scorpio > person is likely to > find himself working with one or more groups of > people for social, humane, > political or religious causes. Sidereally speaking, > Jupiter in Scorpio has > combined the power and authoratative potential of > Jupiter with an energetic > Mars-ruled sign to place DeLay where he is today. > Whether he'll be able to > stay there is another question. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Hi Chris, From what I've been able to see, the western sidereal community is very small. Generally these astrologers don't write about the zodiac signs, so I really don't know what this small number of sidereal astrologers believe. The sidereal fathers including Fagan and Stahl did tend to move Tropical traits to the preceding sidereal sign as I often do. Modern Jyotish often simply copies western sign traits to signs of the same name. (This doesn't make sense to me.) I believe it's a valid idea to pay attention to Tropical sign observations and then check to see if the symbolism and energy fits the preceding sidereal signs. (lords of the signs, etc.) I've been trying to make sense of it all. You're welcome to try to find holes in my observation of sidereal sign energies in individual horoscopes. Tom DeLay is a good example since he has key planets in the Tropical/Sidereal overlap. Below is my small ADB post that's new today. Therese ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From ADB, 10 May 2005: http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/Feedback.asp?ChartID=49627 I'm a firm believer that the planets hold the key to our horoscopes while the energy of the signs simply allows planets to act freely or be tied-up so to speak. So I made the summary below for Tom DeLay. Four ways Tom DeLay has a powerful Mars-Jupiter influence in his birth chart: (1) Jupiter is on the ascendant in a sign of Mars (Tropical astrology would say a sign ruled by Pluto, but in the sidereal zodiac Scorpio's lord is Mars. Scorpio's energy is like Tropical Sag. (2) Mars is in a sign of Jupiter (Pisces) in both zodiacs. In the sidereal zodiac the energy of Pisces is like Tropical Aries. (3) So we have Mars and Jupiter in mutual reception in both zodiacs. Sun is also in sidereal Pisces (Tropical Aries). (4) In the navamsa (9th harmonic) chart Mars and Jupiter are together in Leo. Leo is the second sign of the masculine Aries trigon (Aries, Leo, Sag), so both Mars and Jupiter have free expression here. If we cross these planets to the natal chart, Jupiter is less than a degree from the 10th cusp (equal) and Mars is conjunct the MC. Thus, these planets have full expression in the public career house. Note: The triplicities or trigons go back to Mesopotamia. They were related to the four winds. Later Ptolemy labled them fire, earth, air and water. In the 20th century astrologers gave the Tropical trigons psychological characteristics. The concept of ‘the four winds' simply says that each trigon has a distinct kind of energy. The ‘wind' associated with the sidereal Cancer trigon (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces) is outrushing, forceful and externalized--same as Tropical 'fire.' (I'm still looking for more information on the four winds.) Therese ---------- ---- At 07:41 AM 5/10/05 -0700, Chris wrote: >I don't have enough invested in this discussion of the > " true " nature of signs to get into any long dialogue, >Therese, but perhaps newcomers to the sidereal zodiac >should at least know that yours is a minority view >with the sidereal community. > >Most sidereal astrologers (east and west) simply take >scorpio as scorpio without reference to the tropical >zodiac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 hey Therese, Like I said, I'm not really prepared to enter a discussion about the accuracy of sidereal signs at the moment, but I just wanted new members not to misunderstand that the view you're propounding here was somehow standard sidereal. It isn't. Most adherents of the sidereal zodiac, whether they be following the Fagan Bradley school or Hindu/Vedic, take the signs more or less at face value and don't make the conversion you are suggesting. The Vedic approach may have some differences in sign significations but they are generally very close to western understandings. Just my 2 cents. Chris --- therese92003 <eastwest wrote: > Hi Chris, > > From what I've been able to see, the western > sidereal community is very > small. Generally these astrologers don't write about > the zodiac signs, so I > really don't know what this small number of sidereal > astrologers believe. > The sidereal fathers including Fagan and Stahl did > tend to move Tropical > traits to the preceding sidereal sign as I often do. > Modern Jyotish often > simply copies western sign traits to signs of the > same name. (This doesn't > make sense to me.) > > I believe it's a valid idea to pay attention to > Tropical sign observations > and then check to see if the symbolism and energy > fits the preceding > sidereal signs. (lords of the signs, etc.) > > I've been trying to make sense of it all. You're > welcome to try to find > holes in my observation of sidereal sign energies in > individual horoscopes. > Tom DeLay is a good example since he has key planets > in the > Tropical/Sidereal overlap. Below is my small ADB > post that's new today. > > Therese > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From ADB, 10 May 2005: > http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/Feedback.asp?ChartID=49627 > > I'm a firm believer that the planets hold the key to > our horoscopes while > the energy of the signs simply allows planets to act > freely or be tied-up > so to speak. So I made the summary below for Tom > DeLay. > > Four ways Tom DeLay has a powerful Mars-Jupiter > influence in his birth chart: > > (1) Jupiter is on the ascendant in a sign of Mars > (Tropical astrology would > say a sign ruled by Pluto, but in the sidereal > zodiac Scorpio's lord is > Mars. Scorpio's energy is like Tropical Sag. > > (2) Mars is in a sign of Jupiter (Pisces) in both > zodiacs. In the sidereal > zodiac the energy of Pisces is like Tropical Aries. > > (3) So we have Mars and Jupiter in mutual reception > in both zodiacs. Sun is > also in sidereal Pisces (Tropical Aries). > > (4) In the navamsa (9th harmonic) chart Mars and > Jupiter are together in > Leo. Leo is the second sign of the masculine Aries > trigon (Aries, Leo, > Sag), so both Mars and Jupiter have free expression > here. If we cross these > planets to the natal chart, Jupiter is less than a > degree from the 10th > cusp (equal) and Mars is conjunct the MC. Thus, > these planets have full > expression in the public career house. > > Note: The triplicities or trigons go back to > Mesopotamia. They were related > to the four winds. Later Ptolemy labled them fire, > earth, air and water. In > the 20th century astrologers gave the Tropical > trigons psychological > characteristics. The concept of ‘the four winds' > simply says that each > trigon has a distinct kind of energy. The ‘wind' > associated with the > sidereal Cancer trigon (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces) is > outrushing, forceful > and externalized--same as Tropical 'fire.' (I'm > still looking for more > information on the four winds.) > > Therese > > ---------- > ---- > At 07:41 AM 5/10/05 -0700, Chris wrote: > >I don't have enough invested in this discussion of > the > > " true " nature of signs to get into any long > dialogue, > >Therese, but perhaps newcomers to the sidereal > zodiac > >should at least know that yours is a minority view > >with the sidereal community. > > > >Most sidereal astrologers (east and west) simply > take > >scorpio as scorpio without reference to the > tropical > >zodiac. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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