For Jivio; Saturn-Pluto for Terrorists

[Guest guest]

Like every other astrologer in the world, I cast a chart for the 911

attack in NYC. Then I remembered that the WTC had been attacked the

previous decade. It seem natural to use the earlier bombing as a

basis chart and see how the angles had precessed up to the 911 event.

 

That wasn't too impressive. So, I said to myself, " Self, there has

to be another root chart that both events would relate to. " I

couldn't find one. Then, since I use cyclic charts, I decided to

check major conjunctions and to test them. According to CSI,

Ebertin's Combination of Stellar Influences, the Saturn-Pluto

combination seemed to have all of the characteristics of a

terrorist: Hard labour, cruelty. tenacity and toughness, endurance,

a hard and unfeeling disposition, also cold-heartedness. severity,

tendency to violence, a fanatical adherence to one's principles, a

martyr, violence, etc.

 

The Saturn-Pluto chart is for Nov. 8, 1982 at 12:37 AM for a NY

location. Used as a basis chart for 9-11, just to cite one example,

I computed the prior and following SR charts, then calculated the

progressed (by 1.25 degrees/day for the MC, approximately) chart for

the 9-11 event. The same angles for the SA-PL conjunction chart had

come up on the chart angles progressed for that day. Mars/t was at

the MC, Moon/t and Jupiter/t at the IC, Mercury/t opposite the ASC.

Now, I use the arc-angle from the ASC-to-MC and project it from the

MC towards the DSC angle area. That new point I call the Co-DSC.

Mars/conj. chart was exactly there. Two angular Mars's are tough no

matter how you want to interpret them.

 

So, this is how I do some of my work. The SA-PL conjunction chart

also seemed to work for the other events. DAve.

[Guest guest]

Our messages are crossing here. Using the Saturn-Pluto conjunction

chart was based on the meanings of those two combined planets as

being somewhat congruent with the way you would describe terrorist's

operations and attitudes. More so than other combinations, IMHO.

 

I cast that conjunction relative to NYC because that was where the

terrorist attack took place. That gave me a " time " and a " location "

which was enough to start checking its validity.

 

The next step was to do a SR prior to 9-11 and following 9-11. The

ST for these two charts was 18h 35m 25s and 00h 44m 00s respectively.

 

Here are the calculation steps I followed:

DETERMINE YEARLY PRECESSION TIME

* Following S/R ST time: 00 44 00

* Earlier S/R ST time: 18 35 25

* Subtract; diff. in time: 6 08 25

* Add 24 hours, result: 30 08 25

* Convert to decimal: 30.14027

DETERMINE S/R to EVENT RATIO

* Event Day # 616 (same as 254)

* Earlier Day #331

* Interval 288 days

* Interval divided by 365.25 equals .788501 of a year

DETERMINE INTERMEDIATE S/R CHART TIME

* Yearly Precession Time multiplied by S/R Event Ratio

Converted from decimal to hourly value = 23h 45m 56s

* Equation of Time factor: Plus 10 m

* Adjusted interval = 23h 55m 56s

* Minus earlier S/R ST 18 35 25

* Progressed/precessed Chart time of 18h 31m 21s

* For NYC this gives an MC of Capricorn 7, an ASC of Aries 13

and a Co-DSC (equal arc angle from MC) of Libra 1.

 

I'm pulling out old charts and scratch sheets as I write this.

Against the progressed/precessed/intermediate chart angles (MC @ 7

Cap, ASC @ 13 Aries, Co-DSC of 1 Libra) we have the actual event

date and time angle reversed (MC @ 14 Cap, ASC @ 14 Libra).

 

I discovered something back in the 1970's. Since the MC can be

moved from one S/R to the next S/R at a rate of approcimately 1.25

degrees, or 5/4 of a circle as Fagan pointed out, we have two unique

situations arise in any year. Consider this. Around 4 months and

three weeks time, your S/R MC will have moved to its opposite

point. This is a time when the promise of the SR enters a crises

stage. At about 9 months and two weeks, the S/R angles return to

their original position. This is a time when the promise of the S/R

can be most easily fulfilled. At the 12 month point when the next

S/R occurs, the MC and Sun have moved about 1/4 of a circle ahead of

last year. (This we are all familiar with).

 

My birthday is on Sept. 13th. Every Feb. around Valentines Day

something happens -- I lose my job, I have an accident, someting

happens. Later, in the summer around the fist week in July, good

things tend to happen. These points, when my S/R is highly active

with angular planets, are my crises points and resolvement points.

So, I take a vacation in February, and look for new jobs in July.

 

To return to the SA-PL conjunct chart angles and the 9-11 moving

chart angles, the MC and ASC points are essential reversed. This is

a crises point. A crises happened.

 

That's enough for this post. Dave.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

The Saturn/Pluto of the Mossad chart holds

the ASC of the Israel chart between them as midpoint.

 

*Mossad: June 7 1948 (no time) Tel Aviv

*Israel: June 15 1948 0:00 am EET Tel Aviv

...one of several times for Israel...

 

Dark*Star

________________________________

 

Dave wrote:

 

> According to CSI,

> Ebertin's Combination of Stellar Influences, the Saturn-Pluto

> combination seemed to have all of the characteristics of a

> terrorist: Hard labour, cruelty. tenacity and toughness, endurance,

> a hard and unfeeling disposition, also cold-heartedness. severity,

> tendency to violence, a fanatical adherence to one's principles, a

> martyr, violence, etc.

>

[Guest guest]

Ebertin...

 

Had to have been a very unusual sort of guy... I read and have CSI

and its not a book I appreciate for his interpetations but for his

work with midpoints.... There is a picture of him in it and I always

felt he looked unusual/a bit strange.(what ever that means?).

 

His interpetations are a bit skewed to me, but that may have not been

him... It could have been those who interputed his German(mentality).

 

For Saturn/Pluto characteristics I can see Hard labour, tenacity,

toughness, endurance and even a fanatical adherence to one's

principles. Pluto nor Saturn are inherently cruel to me. Pluto

provides an edge or a dimension of the underworld however

transformative/regenerative energy is not cruel in itself.

Atomic energy which was harnessed and unleashed in the form of a bomb

(during this time)saved more lives than it took. Add Mars and Neptune

and then you have rich ingredients with Pluto and Saturn for

potential cruelty.

 

The Midpoint for P/S on June 7th is 21d+ Cancer, however only 5

degrees seperated the two planets.

 

For the sake of clarity (D*).... Did your post suggest that Isreal's

direction is predisposed to cruelty, cold-heartedness and severity?

 

 

Other charts for consideration:

 

ISLAM: July 16, 622, 16:00 GMT, 39e36/24n28 (Juan Antonio Revilla)

 

PALESTINE:

Declaration of Independence: Nov. 15, 1988, 12:40 AM CEST Algiers,

Algeria. (Mark Andrew Holmes)

Palestinian " autonomy " in the Gaza Strip and West Bank: May 4 1994,

8:55 AM, GMT, Cairo, Egypt.(Mark Andrew Holmes)

 

*note that the Israeli and Palestinian " Suns " are in opposition.

 

" Nations do not have only one valid " birth " chart. It is always

possible to establish the significance or transcendence of other

historical moments that can be used effectively as radicals, since

what constitutes " the birth " of a nation is a question of

interpetation that can be seen from many different points of view.

One point of view - one chart--will prove better than the others

within the limitations of a specific context of analysis. "

 

Juan Antonio Revilla

 

 

 

Jivio

 

 

 

 

 

, Dark Star <pansophia@e...>

wrote:

>

> Hi,

>

> The Saturn/Pluto of the Mossad chart holds

> the ASC of the Israel chart between them as midpoint.

>

> *Mossad: June 7 1948 (no time) Tel Aviv

> *Israel: June 15 1948 0:00 am EET Tel Aviv

> ...one of several times for Israel...

>

> Dark*Star

> ________________________________

>

> Dave wrote:

>

> > According to CSI,

> > Ebertin's Combination of Stellar Influences, the Saturn-Pluto

> > combination seemed to have all of the characteristics of a

> > terrorist: Hard labour, cruelty. tenacity and toughness,

endurance,

> > a hard and unfeeling disposition, also cold-heartedness. severity,

> > tendency to violence, a fanatical adherence to one's principles, a

> > martyr, violence, etc.

> >

[Guest guest]

According to SolarFire5 which utilizes the Swiss Ephemeris. The time

for the Saturn Pluto Conjunction in New York occurred at 7:43:56 PM

and not 12:37 AM. Please check your references.

 

 

Jivio

 

 

, " Dave " <dadsnook@c...>

wrote:

>

> Like every other astrologer in the world, I cast a chart for the

911

> attack in NYC. So, I said to myself, " Self, there has

> to be another root chart that both events would relate to. "

> The Saturn-Pluto chart is for Nov. 8, 1982 at 12:37 AM for a NY

> location.

 

 

 

 

 

Used as a basis chart for 9-11, just to cite one example,

[Guest guest]

Hi Jivio,

 

Interesting your take on Ebertin. He had a very Nazi look. His mother

Elsbeth: 5/14/1880 Freiberg (with various times that I can't solve just

now) always caught my attention. She was the first to recognize and

laud the fledgling Hitler. To calm the neighborhood, the Nazis wouldn't

allow her to move and she died in a bomb strike in full knowledge of it.

Her, " Astrology and Romance " (1936-English) helped me much.

 

Yes. A full consideration of the 7th house of the 0:00 Israeli chart

requires of me those very words. Yes.

 

Juan's chart for Islam is sterling. Thanks for putting it out there again.

 

To Revilla's take on valid " birth " charts, I would add that contemporary

transits resurrect that particular birth chart that best allows their

expression. US war matters seem always to go looking for Helen Boyd.

" Today's " darling mundane is in tomorrow's dustbin only to rise again

" day " after. Yes, even the 'Gemini Rising.'

 

Dark*Star

________________________________

 

jivio wrote:

 

> Ebertin...

>

> For the sake of clarity (D*).... Did your post suggest that Isreal's

> direction is predisposed to cruelty, cold-heartedness and severity?

>

> Other charts for consideration:

>

> ISLAM: July 16, 622, 16:00 GMT, 39e36/24n28 (Juan Antonio Revilla)

>

> " Nations do not have only one valid " birth " chart. It is always

> possible to establish the significance or transcendence of other

> historical moments that can be used effectively as radicals, since

> what constitutes " the birth " of a nation is a question of

> interpetation that can be seen from many different points of view.

> One point of view - one chart--will prove better than the others

> within the limitations of a specific context of analysis. "

>

> Juan Antonio Revilla

>

[Guest guest]

> According to SolarFire5 which utilizes the Swiss Ephemeris. The

time for the Saturn Pluto Conjunction in New York occurred at

7:43:56 PM and not 12:37 AM. Please check your references. Jivio

>

REPLY:

I had entered the conjunction date from my ephermeris and then kept

moveing/rectifying the time until I got a conjunction. Due to the

relative movement of Saturn and Pluto on that date, the apparent

conjunction time actually covered a span of several hours. I did

not check for the end-points of that " conjunction span " and

therefore used a time that was not representative of the best

accuracy. Dave.

[Guest guest]

, " jivio " <jivio>

wrote: Ebertin... Had to have been a very unusual sort of guy... I

read and have CSI and its not a book I appreciate for his

interpetations but for his work with midpoints.... There is a

picture of him in it and I always felt he looked unusual/a bit

strange.(what ever that means?).

>

> His interpetations are a bit skewed to me, but that may have not

been > him... It could have been those who interputed his German

(mentality).

>

REPLY:

My view of Ebertin's interpretations is that they are, indeed, a

little harsh. Ebertin and his earlier inspiration, Witte, seemed to

have been heavily influenced by the warlike conditions the were so

evident in Europe at the turn of the century and into/through World

War II.

 

One other book that is perhaps a nicer model of midpoint

interpretation in general, but which was not specifically written

for use as " mid-points " is the book " Planets In Containment " by John

Sandbach and Ronn Ballard. This book looks at 980 combinations of

two and three planet combinations (in terms of zodiacal sequence).

Their approach does not required calculations or mid-points or

aspects of postional information -- just the sequence. This is the

most " non-sidereal " approach anyone could take; no math and no

calculations, just look at an ephemeris and read the chart.

 

However, the interpretations are deep, sensitive, thoughtful, and

can often be used as " mid-point " interpretations. Dave.

[Guest guest]

, Dark Star <pansophia@e...>

wrote:

>

> Yes. A full consideration of the 7th house of the 0:00 Israeli chart

> requires of me those very words. Yes.

>

 

> > For the sake of clarity (D*).... Did your post suggest that

Isreal's

> > direction is predisposed to cruelty, cold-heartedness and severity

 

 

Hmmmmm.... Dark*Star

 

You sound pretty dark when it comes to the Israeli Chart. Saturn and

Pluto simplisticly is about moderated renewal. Cruelty is not

Saturn/Pluto by themselves.

 

Why do you put so much weight on " Midnight " on the 15th of May for

the timing of the Israeli Chart? Was some decree written for midnight

of the 15th?

 

Campion... suggests May 14th @ 4:32:00 PM EEST

Revilla... suggests May 14th @ 2:15:07 PM GMT

 

What jumps out at me, whatever chart one uses is that...

Transiting Neptune is currently square to the Lunar Nodes at that

time and that it is also in opposition to the Midpoint of the

Saturn/Pluto conjunction.... Which fits in to our discussion

of " imagining " what is the focus, structure and spiritual awareness

of Israel... beyond that the stage is being set for a helleva week.

 

The Sun will conjoin Neptune to bring vision to the perception that

currently exists... so we may look(and perceive) for some answers...

Also keep in mind that... what ever chart(Israel) you feel

comfortable with has transiting Mars aspecting natal Jupiter and

Mars...

 

 

(note)The USA Boyd chart and Revilla's Israel chart show two allies...

With the USA Mars at the ascendent of both charts...

 

 

This may be the week that(USA moves) Israel to alter its posture with

their brothers within the Arab world... They are sons of Abraham and

until they embrace their similarities they are lost to the futility

of understanding " double standards " such as " suns " in polarity.

This week transiting Mars will also square the Boyd Mars &

Ascendent.

 

 

 

>

> To Revilla's take on valid " birth " charts, I would add that

contemporary

> transits resurrect that particular birth chart that best allows

their

> expression. US war matters seem always to go looking for Helen Boyd.

> " Today's " darling mundane is in tomorrow's dustbin only to rise

again

> " day " after. Yes, even the 'Gemini Rising.'

>

> Dark*Star

 

Yes... even the " Gemini rising " ..

 

Jivio

> ________________________________

>

> jivio wrote:

>

> > Ebertin...

> >

?

> >

> > Other charts for consideration:

> >

> > ISLAM: July 16, 622, 16:00 GMT, 39e36/24n28 (Juan Antonio Revilla)

> >

> > " Nations do not have only one valid " birth " chart. It is always

> > possible to establish the significance or transcendence of other

> > historical moments that can be used effectively as radicals, since

> > what constitutes " the birth " of a nation is a question of

> > interpetation that can be seen from many different points of view.

> > One point of view - one chart--will prove better than the others

> > within the limitations of a specific context of analysis. "

> >

> > Juan Antonio Revilla

> >

[Guest guest]

, " Dave " <dadsnook@c...>

wrote:

 

 

" Planets In Containment " by John

> Sandbach and Ronn Ballard. This book looks at 980 combinations of

> two and three planet combinations (in terms of zodiacal sequence).

> Their approach does not required calculations or mid-points or

> aspects of postional information -- just the sequence. This is the

> most " non-sidereal " approach anyone could take; no math and no

> calculations, just look at an ephemeris and read the chart.

>

> However, the interpretations are deep, sensitive, thoughtful, and

> can often be used as " mid-point " interpretations. Dave.

 

 

These would be Tropical Interpetations? You mention " non-sidereal " so

I wonder if any reference to " signs " is made....

 

What are some of the " keywords " used for Saturn/Pluto?

 

Anyara-Astrology is a look at planets in containment. I found the

following review on " Planets in Containment " . " This is a book that

explains the meaning of any three planets in a row, in zodiacal

order. So if you have the Moon at 7 Aries, Mars at 18 Aries & Saturn

at 2 Taurus, you would look up Mars sandwiched between Moon & Saturn. "

Is this a valid review?

 

Jivio

[Guest guest]

My observation, Jivio's response and question, my response:

 

MY OBSERVATION:

> , " Dave " <dadsnook@c...>

> wrote: " Planets In Containment " by John Sandbach and Ronn

Ballard. This book looks at 980 combinations of two and three

planet combinations (in terms of zodiacal sequence). Their approach

does not required calculations or mid-points or aspects of postional

information -- just the sequence. This is the most " non-sidereal "

approach anyone could take; no math and no calculations, just look

at an ephemeris and read the chart. However, the interpretations

are deep, sensitive, thoughtful, and can often be used as " mid-

point " interpretations. Dave.

>

RESPONSE-QUESTION:

> These would be Tropical Interpetations? You mention " non-sidereal "

so I wonder if any reference to " signs " is made....

> What are some of the " keywords " used for Saturn/Pluto?

> Anyara-Astrology is a look at planets in containment. I found the

> following review on " Planets in Containment " . " This is a book that

> explains the meaning of any three planets in a row, in zodiacal

> order. So if you have the Moon at 7 Aries, Mars at 18 Aries &

Saturn at 2 Taurus, you would look up Mars sandwiched between Moon &

Saturn. " Is this a valid review? Jivio

 

MY REPLY: My comment on the book being " non-sidereal " was comming

from the point of view that using " Containments " required no

calculation work and was simple enough to almost read out of an

ephemeris -- whereas the implied reference to " sidereal " was that

calculations were required and (possibly) a number of charts might

be used to state an assessment.

 

As to the meanings this particular book would apply to a planetary

combination, we can look at the two examples noted in recent posts:

 

MOON-MARS-SATURN (in Containments) " . . . exhibits an innate ability

to accomplish the mundane and necessary tasks of daily life, and to

take action when it is called for in immediate situations. However,

this may tend to inhibit these individuals from taking initiative in

terms of more demanding projects since they feel safe within the

confines of routines and may fear undertaking endeavors with which

they feel less secure. They need to define how they intend to use

their constructive energies, while constantly re-establishing the

boundaries of their efforts lest they become overly constrictive for

them. "

 

SATURN-ASC-PLUTO (in Containments) " These individuals are probably

more intense and personally powerful than they realize. They tend

to be overly sensitive to other prople's reactions, and yet they may

project their self-dounbts outward from themselfves and experience

others as sharing these negative opinions. If they continually

reinforce negative beliefs about themselves which in turn create a

sense of limitation, then they well feel overwhelmed and powerless

when faced with new situations. By gaining objectivety with this

process they will soon be able to recognize their own posers

 

Now, Containments are not Mid-points. Containments are developed by

taking the first-sequence planet as a basis, applying the second

sequence planet as the " action to take " and applying it to the third

sequence planet as the result or goal or method to use. But, being

three planet combinations they are similar. Within that general

similarity I find them to be better written for these modern times

than Ebertin's write-ups. I respect Ebertin's work greatly, and I

have found many times where his comments were highly specific. But

in gerneral they seem a little harsh and negative-biased in some

cases. Dave.

[Guest guest]

Dave....

 

Thank you for clarifing and explaining the perspective

that " Containments " provides....

 

I'm going out and buying a copy right now....

 

Jivio

 

 

 

, " Dave " <dadsnook@c...>

wrote:

>

> My observation, Jivio's response and question, my response:

>

> MY OBSERVATION:

> > , " Dave " <dadsnook@c...>

> > wrote: " Planets In Containment " by John Sandbach and Ronn

> Ballard. This book looks at 980 combinations of two and three

> planet combinations (in terms of zodiacal sequence). Their

approach

> does not required calculations or mid-points or aspects of

postional

> information -- just the sequence. This is the most " non-sidereal "

> approach anyone could take; no math and no calculations, just look

> at an ephemeris and read the chart. However, the interpretations

> are deep, sensitive, thoughtful, and can often be used as " mid-

> point " interpretations. Dave.

> >

> RESPONSE-QUESTION:

> > These would be Tropical Interpetations? You mention " non-

sidereal "

> so I wonder if any reference to " signs " is made....

> > What are some of the " keywords " used for Saturn/Pluto?

> > Anyara-Astrology is a look at planets in containment. I found the

> > following review on " Planets in Containment " . " This is a book

that

> > explains the meaning of any three planets in a row, in zodiacal

> > order. So if you have the Moon at 7 Aries, Mars at 18 Aries &

> Saturn at 2 Taurus, you would look up Mars sandwiched between Moon

&

> Saturn. " Is this a valid review? Jivio

>

> MY REPLY: My comment on the book being " non-sidereal " was comming

> from the point of view that using " Containments " required no

> calculation work and was simple enough to almost read out of an

> ephemeris -- whereas the implied reference to " sidereal " was that

> calculations were required and (possibly) a number of charts might

> be used to state an assessment.

>

> As to the meanings this particular book would apply to a planetary

> combination, we can look at the two examples noted in recent posts:

>

> MOON-MARS-SATURN (in Containments) " . . . exhibits an innate

ability

> to accomplish the mundane and necessary tasks of daily life, and to

> take action when it is called for in immediate situations.

However,

> this may tend to inhibit these individuals from taking initiative

in

> terms of more demanding projects since they feel safe within the

> confines of routines and may fear undertaking endeavors with which

> they feel less secure. They need to define how they intend to use

> their constructive energies, while constantly re-establishing the

> boundaries of their efforts lest they become overly constrictive

for

> them. "

>

> SATURN-ASC-PLUTO (in Containments) " These individuals are probably

> more intense and personally powerful than they realize. They tend

> to be overly sensitive to other prople's reactions, and yet they

may

> project their self-dounbts outward from themselfves and experience

> others as sharing these negative opinions. If they continually

> reinforce negative beliefs about themselves which in turn create a

> sense of limitation, then they well feel overwhelmed and powerless

> when faced with new situations. By gaining objectivety with this

> process they will soon be able to recognize their own posers

>

> Now, Containments are not Mid-points. Containments are developed

by

> taking the first-sequence planet as a basis, applying the second

> sequence planet as the " action to take " and applying it to the

third

> sequence planet as the result or goal or method to use. But, being

> three planet combinations they are similar. Within that general

> similarity I find them to be better written for these modern times

> than Ebertin's write-ups. I respect Ebertin's work greatly, and I

> have found many times where his comments were highly specific. But

> in gerneral they seem a little harsh and negative-biased in some

> cases. Dave.