Sidereal portal (Dave)

[Guest guest]

At 01:25 PM 1/28/05 -0000, Dave wrote:

>

>From what I have seen in my brief tour of this site, and from what I

>have observed of the practices of " Siderealists " in other places,

>this practice is quite individualistic and may not have the general

>consensus of meanings that have been developed by tropical adherents

>through their many books, magazines and practices.

 

Thanks for your extensive reply, Dave. We probably have to separate 'old

time' siderealists who try to follow Fagan-Allen, and siderealists who have

stepped beyond the initial tenets of sidereal astrology. I think you'll

find general ageeement among the oldtimers because there's not that much

literature to study.

 

>As an example, other than for natal charts and mundane/political

>applications I do not use signs, houses, and most aspects.

 

There you go! You're an oldtimer.

 

>IMHO, if you can't do Sidereal work with manual

>calculations instead of a computer, then you are likely to make

>mistakes in your application of using computer generated charts. The

>methodology, for me, goes beyond where generalized computer programs

>go.

 

If you're asking newbies or those converted from the Tropical zodiac to

learn to do calculations by hand, you're going to assure that sidereal

astrology will disappear with the over age 50 current practitioners. This

is initially why sidereal astrology didn't take off. It's too math

intensive. This reqires a much different mental aptitiude than astrologers

in general are likely to display.

 

I'm probably a good example. I 'learned' sidereal astrology in the 70s. But

it didn't really stick, and I can read articles today that simply pass me

by. Solar quotidian progression, Neo-quotidian, PSSR, debates about which

progression rate to use, etc. All basically Greek to me. I decamped for

Jyotish and of late, Hellenistic studies. But I can read the charts that

are posted--more or less.

 

However, solar and lunar returns are extremely valuable. This may be the

lasting legacy of the Fagan-Bradley school. I personally have not found the

Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa to be valid. The debate rages on. I hope that

someday research can settle the ayanamsa issue.

 

>Since there are already good instructional texts available for most

>Sidereal techniques, those are best used.

 

Actuallly this isn't true. Most of the texts are out of print. The only way

to remedy this is to have all of the information on the web. Probably the

only current information on learning Fagan's sidereal astrology is Kenneth

Bowser's correspondence course. (Typing 'Kenneth Bowser western sidereal

astrology' into a search engine will take you to his site.) Some articles

in sidereal.zip are simply out of date or personal musing and opinion.

 

> But, I have not

>found anything that would substitute for just hard work and

>diligence in going through books and just doing charts.

 

This is true, but the student still needs to have basic texts that explain

the fundmentals.

 

Thanks again, Dave.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Dave... where have you been all my life.....

 

Note:

A breath of fresh air inspires.....

 

 

These energies we are experiencing after the full moon are awesome,

wonderful and extraordinary... I may sound as though I am tip toeing

thru the tulips a bit but these past few days for me have been

awesome.

 

I moderate Physics_of_ and the

other day I decided to become pro-active in promoting a " camp "

of " western " sidereal astrology. I intend to continue to contribute

within this group and learn what I can here but I feel very

passionate about developing a seperate perspective.

 

, Therese Hamilton

<eastwest@s...> wrote:

> At 01:25 PM 1/28/05 -0000, Dave wrote:

> >

> >From what I have seen in my brief tour of this site, and from what

I

> >have observed of the practices of " Siderealists " in other places,

> >this practice is quite individualistic and may not have the

general

> >consensus of meanings that have been developed by tropical

adherents

> >through their many books, magazines and practices.

>

> Thanks for your extensive reply, Dave. We probably have to

separate 'old

> time' siderealists who try to follow Fagan-Allen, and siderealists

who have

> stepped beyond the initial tenets of sidereal astrology. I think

you'll

> find general ageeement among the oldtimers because there's not that

much

> literature to study.

>

 

Dave... your comments here and in your inital thread resonate with me.

Sidereal Astrology is " out of the box " thinking. Our greatest

challenge at time is to define the differences between Tropical and

Sidereal and its many " faces " .

 

Therese.... " old time " siderealists implies being " out of touch " ...

Are the " faganites " out of touch? I think suggesting one ayanamsa is

better than the other is a " dog chasing its tail game " . Dave... made

a great point when he said to Steinar that one has to do the work. no

short cuts... I did my work long ago and tried every ayanamsa

available on the software " NOVA " and found Fagan/Bradley's ayanamsa

worked best for me. Your experience has led you to believe in

Krishnamurti and Anny believes in Lahari and the list goes on...

I find that artizens choose their tools wisely and proceed to their

appointed tasks.

 

When I challenge or disagree with you keep in mind that I think the

world of you. Your presence here has inspired a very pro-active

environment and for that we all owe you a debt of graditude.

 

 

 

 

 

> >As an example, other than for natal charts and mundane/political

> >applications I do not use signs, houses, and most aspects.

>

> There you go! You're an oldtimer.

>

 

 

Or is Dave(today)the cutting edge of Sidereal Astrology?

 

 

> >IMHO, if you can't do Sidereal work with manual

> >calculations instead of a computer, then you are likely to make

> >mistakes in your application of using computer generated charts.

The

> >methodology, for me, goes beyond where generalized computer

programs

> >go.

>

> If you're asking newbies or those converted from the Tropical

zodiac to

> learn to do calculations by hand, you're going to assure that

sidereal

> astrology will disappear with the over age 50 current

practitioners. This

> is initially why sidereal astrology didn't take off. It's too math

> intensive. This reqires a much different mental aptitiude than

astrologers

> in general are likely to display.

 

Therese: You did it the same way... and embraced it...

I believe what Dave is expressing is that to understand the dynamics

completely one learns how to do the calulations by hand....

Especially if one intends to go beyond the capabilities of software.

NOVA the premier software for so many years was a siderealist driven

software. The options available within it taught tropicalists and

siderealists alike about various mathmatical processess. Awesome

software that is still working on today's operating systems.

Tropicalists discovered that precession correction provided a better

vehicle for predictive purposes. If " astrologers in general " do not

grasp the mathmatics, the meaning of anglearity, the measures of

space and time then are they astrologers?

 

 

 

 

 

>

> I'm probably a good example. I 'learned' sidereal astrology in the

70s. But

> it didn't really stick, and I can read articles today that simply

pass me

> by. Solar quotidian progression, Neo-quotidian, PSSR, debates about

which

> progression rate to use, etc. All basically Greek to me. I decamped

for

> Jyotish and of late, Hellenistic studies. But I can read the charts

that

> are posted--more or less.

 

 

Your interest is not in the math techniques used but your interests

are philisophical, psychological and historical. Those of us(and who

knows, maybe its a guy thing)who want to know how it operates are

into the math and the engineering of cyclical activity. Someday we

may be able to understand it in waves instead of cyclical notions.

 

 

 

>

> However, solar and lunar returns are extremely valuable. This may

be the

> lasting legacy of the Fagan-Bradley school. I personally have not

found the

> Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa to be valid. The debate rages on. I hope that

> someday research can settle the ayanamsa issue.

 

 

The Fagan/Bradley school or as I refer to as Sidereal Astrology

provided a greater contribution than simply solar and lunar returns.

The ayanamsa issue is one of personal choice, experience and until

judged otherwise.

 

 

 

>

> >Since there are already good instructional texts available for

most

> >Sidereal techniques, those are best used.

>

> Actuallly this isn't true. Most of the texts are out of print. The

only way

> to remedy this is to have all of the information on the web.

Probably the

> only current information on learning Fagan's sidereal astrology is

Kenneth

> Bowser's correspondence course. (Typing 'Kenneth Bowser western

sidereal

> astrology' into a search engine will take you to his site.) Some

articles

> in sidereal.zip are simply out of date or personal musing and

opinion.

>

 

I agree with Dave and Therese here in that much knowledge has been

done and recorded however it is not readily available. My ambition is

to remedy the existing lack of available information. Efforts have

begun to compile the works of Siderealists and to make it available.

It will take a team effort and everyone with a desire to help is

encouraged to contact me directly. What I want to see is if a

siderealist can write a contemporary book on signs. The debate here

is are there Sidereal Signs? Sidereal.zip like most efforts require

editing and refinement over time. It will emerge in a different

format and be contempoary.

 

> > But, I have not

> >found anything that would substitute for just hard work and

> >diligence in going through books and just doing charts.

>

> This is true, but the student still needs to have basic texts that

explain

> the fundmentals.

>

> Thanks again, Dave.

>

> Therese

 

 

Ahhhhhhhhh......... We agree...........

 

 

Jivio(To Life!)

 

& (I learned this the other day and love it)

 

May the transits be with you...

 

Juan

 

 

 

PS: I'm thinking a Siderealist Symposium sometime this summer.....

or Get " out of the box " with Siderealists, A Summer Series.......

[Guest guest]

One thing that may have been overlooked in my last posting relates

to which measuring point, of several, is correct. I do not care

which measuring point is correct! I use the tropical zodiac merely

as a measuring tool and because I can quickly look up plantetary

position and conjuction-points by scanning an ephemeris.

 

As I noted, for the various terrorist attacks, I constructed a chart

for NYC and the time of the last Saturn-Pluto conjunction. I chose

them because their combined meanings come very close to defining all

aspects of the current terrrorist operations. Using that chart as a

basis chart I then computed the precession-corrected Solar Returns

prior to and following each incident -- the trade center bombing,

the 911 attack, the Madrid train bombing, and the USS Cole attack,

each corrected for their location.

 

The two SR charts bracketing each event were used to find an

intermediate chart using Fagan's observation that the MC actually

progresses 5/4's of a circle from on year to the next.

Proportioning this (actually using ST's and carefull calculations) I

came up with an intermediate chart for the event date. These are

powerful chart-statements about what happened.

 

To do the predictive work, I actually create a MC & ASC wave cycle

chart that spans the time between one SR and the next SR. Similar

to what Ebertin promoted for mid-points and the annual diagram, I

plot the basis chart positions (or natal or event chart) across the

chart and/or the prior SR positions. I can then visually scan the

graph for the year and see when these constantly moving angles will

contact sevnsitive points.

 

Actually, I have developed an interpretation process in which these

angles have interpretive meanings. So, using one or two or three

contacts by the angles at/around a given date, it is possible to see

what is " coming down the road " in terms of " event definition " . I

see event definition as what predictive astrology is actually

about. What energies are in play? Are they mirroring energies of

the natal/event/basis chart? After all, the strongest manifestation

occurs when natal planet patterns are reconstructed in some way and

again activated.

 

There are other things I also use. However, my point is that this

methodolgy does not depend upon any one zodiac or reference point.

It just recognizes the value of precessing the basis chart. All the

other stuff is just technique. Dave.

[Guest guest]

, " Dave " <dadsnook@c...>

wrote:

>>

> As I noted, for the various terrorist attacks, I constructed a

chart for NYC and the time of the last Saturn-Pluto conjunction. I

chose them because their combined meanings come very close to

defining all aspects of the current terrrorist operations.

 

As mentioned in a previous post I can appreciate why NYC. There MARS

and the SNode were conjunct the DEC with the NNode on the ASC.

 

With this " basis " chart one does not require any additional " stuff "

like signs or ayanamsa. Its a fact that Mars demonstrates when

activated.

 

Why did you choose NY?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Using that chart as a

> basis chart I then computed the precession-corrected Solar Returns

> prior to and following each incident -- the trade center bombing,

> the 911 attack, the Madrid train bombing, and the USS Cole attack,

> each corrected for their location.

>

 

Solar Returns of this particular P/S conjunction.(Good use of math)I

bet Bert would say use astrocartography prior to the incident to

anticipate " activated Mars " .

 

 

> The two SR charts bracketing each event were used to find an

> intermediate chart using Fagan's observation that the MC actually

> progresses 5/4's of a circle from on year to the next.

 

So you were proving a Fagan observation.... 5/4's of a circle? can

you explain that further?

 

 

 

> Proportioning this (actually using ST's and carefull calculations)

I

> came up with an intermediate chart for the event date. These are

> powerful chart-statements about what happened.

>

 

Does this chart, this intermediate chart have signs or cusps/angles?

 

 

 

 

 

> To do the predictive work, I actually create a MC & ASC wave cycle

> chart that spans the time between one SR and the next SR. Similar

> to what Ebertin promoted for mid-points and the annual diagram, I

> plot the basis chart positions (or natal or event chart) across the

> chart and/or the prior SR positions. I can then visually scan the

> graph for the year and see when these constantly moving angles will

> contact sevnsitive points.

>

> Actually, I have developed an interpretation process in which these

> angles have interpretive meanings. So, using one or two or three

> contacts by the angles at/around a given date, it is possible to

see

> what is " coming down the road " in terms of " event definition " . I

> see event definition as what predictive astrology is actually

> about. What energies are in play? Are they mirroring energies of

> the natal/event/basis chart? After all, the strongest

manifestation

> occurs when natal planet patterns are reconstructed in some way and

> again activated.

 

The angles move at a " mean " rate? Besides the SR positions, the natal

positions... Do you use progressions and or transits? I agree, event

definition being predictive....

 

 

 

 

>

> There are other things I also use. However, my point is that this

> methodolgy does not depend upon any one zodiac or reference point.

> It just recognizes the value of precessing the basis chart. All

the

> other stuff is just technique. Dave.

 

 

Its all technique... not " just technique " . Your methodolgy can work

with a chart such as the P/S cast for NYC, however a Pluto/Saturn

conjunction on its own does not in itself mean terrorism... Charting

requires the definition of a place(coordinates) either here on earth

or somewhere. Because of the placement of Mars and SNode on the

Decendent the Pluto/Saturn conjunction(cyclical chart) has the balz

to cause mayhem. The connection between the 9/11 event and the others

is that the thread connects the Al Queda... terrorism yes but

particularly Al Queda.

 

I looked at the astrocartography of the P/S conjunction and I noticed

that Uranus was rising along the Indonesian Island that had the

recent earthquake which produced the tsunami... Transiting Uranus

crossed the natal IC in mundo square the day of the tsunami. Looking

at progression as well as the transits and P/S to location is very

revealing... Transiting Neptune rising on the progressed chart...

 

Thanks Dave... you bring fresh ideas... How do you see the election

going in Iraq?

 

Jivio