Sidereal astrology is in transition - a wish

[Guest guest]

Hello Therese, Bert, Steven and everybody,

 

> Sidereal astrology is in transition--changing--since Jyotish (the

> astrology of India) is gaining followers.

 

This is as much interesting as it is frightening! Don't you think?

 

On one hand, I feel we are loosing years of work from our western sidereal

astrology leaders (Fagan, Allan, Firebrace, Gleadow, etc). More important,

as beginners, we cannot find resources on the subject.

 

In French, it's even worst. The only book I have ever heard of (and could

not find), was from Denis Labouré, written in the first part of the 1980.

Since Mr Labouré has chosen Jyotish (he started with Choudhry Systems'

Approach, on which he wrote, using some of Mr Grimes' techniques, as far as

I understand, and now uses Krushna's techniques), we are left with what I

call " false " siderealists: Marie Declos and Jacques Dorsan.

 

These two authors have chosen to use a house system that has no root in

history, although they claim it is the historical one. They reverse the way

we count them. I think it was initiated by Dorsan. Although they keep the

name of the traditional angles (ASC, M.C., DSC, I.C.), they count the houses

according the diurnal movement. Their first house starts from the Ascendant

to our twelfth cusps, their second house is between our eleven and twelfth

cusps, their third house, between our Tenth and eleventh cusps, and so on.

So their cadent houses are our angular ones! This way, they also believe to

follow Gauquelin's findings.

 

The signfications of the houses are then transferred accordingly (our

twelfth house takes a second house significations, etc.), but the our cadent

houses take the significations of the traditional angular ones beside them

(for instance our regular ninth house, which is their fourth house, takes

the significations of our regular tenth house!). They just forget that,

historically, houses had *names* and significations, not numbers. Thanks to

Labouré for reminding that the French astrology community! By chance, we

have also Jyotish, otherwise French tropicalist astrologers would have

thought that siderealists are just going nuts ;-)

 

This depicts the picture of a " new " french western sidereal astrology

school. Do they use the tools developped by Fagan and al? I don't know, it's

not written in one of their introduction book! If a serious student wants to

practice a regular western astrology, he is then left to tropical reference

books and just needs to switch to a sidereal zodiac (which I actually do

essentially). Actually, we are lucky enough that Volguine had this wonderful

idea to include M. H. Froger's paper on precessed solar returns and mensales

in his book on solar returns!

 

On the other hand, after reading the posts on the last tsunami, or looking

at the files uploaded by Bert, and reading about anlunar and such specific

techniques, I feel overwhelmed! So much useful techniques and so few

reference to learn how to calculate and use them! One or two days ago,

updating my bookmarks, I discovered that few of the sidereal astrology

website had disappeared (Contreras website, for instance).

 

So, if I have a wish to formulate, I would like to have either a book or a

website where I could find a glossary with techniques and their use

explained! Do we have such a tool available, yet?

 

--

With my best regard,

François

 

 

 

 

--

 

 

Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release 04-12-30

[Guest guest]

Hello François and Group,

 

 

Francois Carriere [alchocoden]

 

 

>we are left with what I call " false " siderealists: Marie Declos

>and Jacques Dorsan.

 

I don’t quite agree that there is a “false” anything in astrology, since

all branches of astrology are derivations of other branches of

astrology, borrowing techniques from each other, etc., etc. There is no

such thing as a “true” (pure, unadulterated) branch of astrology. I

mean, how can their be such a thing as a true siderealist, since those

you refer to as starting true sidereal astrology are nothing more than

“false” Vedic Astrologers, having “stolen” many ideas from the Hindus?

 

Rony

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 06:59 PM 1/1/05 -0500, Francois wrote:

>

>Hello Therese, Bert, Steven and everybody,

>

>> Sidereal astrology is in transition--changing--since Jyotish (the

>> astrology of India) is gaining followers.

>

>This is as much interesting as it is frightening! Don't you think?

>

>On one hand, I feel we are loosing years of work from our western sidereal

>astrology leaders (Fagan, Allan, Firebrace, Gleadow, etc). More important,

>as beginners, we cannot find resources on the subject.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Francois, when I thought about your question I realized that there never

was a 'finished' sidereal system in the west. (As I just mentioned in a

reply to Dark*Star) There never was a textbook, but only collections of

articles. It seems that the Fagan school has boiled down to (1) a

particular ayanamsa and (2) solar and lunar return charts and their

progressions.

 

Zodiac signs were never defined. (Fagan wrote about the signs, but some of

his thoughts were extremely innacurate, based on theory rather than

observation.) There never was a really comprehensive natal astrology. The

early sidereal fathers didn't agree on some basics, as is evident if you

read their different writings, some of them never going past rough

photocopied pages.

 

Cyril Fagan's big discovery was the sidereal zodiac, except that India had

been using that zodiac for centuries with different ayanamsas.

 

Then siderealists have asked for the scorn some heap on them by calling the

signs 'constellations.' 'Constellational astrology' is O.K., but not

calling a sign a constellation. Most astrologers know that the

constellation of Libra, for example, is only half a sign long. So if you

look at the constellations behind the signs, Libra is 50% Virgo and 50% Libra.

 

I know that Kenneth Bowser has a sidereal correspondence course and plans a

comprehensive book on western sidereal astrology. But until such a book

sees the light of day, we have only poor reproductive copies of articles

written by the sidereal fathers.

 

And we have to remember that each astrologer today who follows the Fagan

school has added or subtracted from the early teachings according to his or

her own experience.

 

Ken's site: http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/

 

Sincerely,

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hello Ron and group,

 

Ron Grimes <rongrimes, wrote:

 

> Francois Carriere [alchocoden]

 

>> we are left with what I call " false " siderealists: Marie Declos and

Jacques Dorsan.

 

> I don't quite agree that there is a " false " anything in astrology, since

all branches of astrology are derivations of other branches of astrology,

borrowing techniques from each other, etc., etc. There is no such thing as a

" true " (pure, unadulterated) branch of astrology. I mean, how can their be

such a thing as a true siderealist, since those you refer to as starting

true sidereal astrology are nothing more than " false " Vedic Astrologers,

having " stolen " many ideas from the Hindus?

 

Well, I must admit I exaggerated when writting what I did. Although I do

believe what I said, I still owe these two authors the respect they merit,

for their work at least. However it is not my intention to use their

" system " . This for an historical basis.

 

I find it difficult to believe that the western sidereal astrology reformers

just have " stolen " their ideas from hindu astrology (which I also believe it

is not what you " merely " said). They may have been influenced by it, but I

believe it is a known fact that they have made researches and that their

results and practice rather have their foundation on early babylonian

astrology. Still, we must not forget the historical exchanges that happened

between the Hindu and the Babylonian. Whether Hindu astrology or Babylonian

astrology is the older, I don't care.

 

--

With my best regards - François

 

 

 

 

--

 

 

Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release 04-12-30

[Guest guest]

, " Francois Carriere "

<alchocoden> wrote:

>

> I find it difficult to believe that the western sidereal

> astrology reformers just have " stolen " their ideas from hindu

> astrology (which I also believe it > is not what you " merely "

> said). They may have been influenced by it, but I believe it is a

> known fact that they have made researches and that their results

> and practice rather have their foundation on early babylonian

> astrology.

 

I agree with you here, which goes to my point that there are no true

systems anymore in terms of not having mixed with others. This, of

course, also makes me question why some western siderealists resist

the adoption of the Vedic dasas and vargas, if they will help in the

predictive efforts. After all, my point has always been that our

allegiance should be to predictive accuracy over loyalty to the idea

of being one kind of astrologer as opposed to another, or being

loyal to one school of thought to the exclusion of other workable

ideas.

 

Rony