Guest guest Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Dear Therese, I've only worked closely with people trying to sell. I'm sure a chart for first viewing of the property would offer insight, but a good inspector even more <grins> Oh, I didn't mean that you hadn't done your math time. I was only commenting on my astrological work in this life, which is very different from counseling. As a researcher, I'd like to see astrology become tighter as a discipline. I've come so far away from consulting that I really can't comment on how others practice astrology. Just recently I scanned shelves of astrological books in a local store. Almost every one was on counseling, psychology and therapy. This shows how astrology has shifted away from prediction emphasis in earlier times. [cynthianovak] Got it! Those books sell because most folks are interested in understanding themselves, then get the desire to learn more. Have you ever looked at Richard Nolle's site? www.astropro.com He's tropical but very predictive. His interest is storm activity. He uses the Moon a lot. My brain is dull and I can't say more, but you might be pleasantly surprised. If you go to his site, click the " futures " I believe the answer is halfway between really good research and consulting. Consulting or counseling astrology needs a solid foundation in research. And any astrologer who works in the psychological area needs to have some professional training in that area. I've heard some awful, awful interpretation of horoscopes from professionals for myself and others. One of the worst comments was from a woman on my Pluto square Moon: " You mother wanted to abort you. " Well, my mother loved children and had seven of them--eight including a miscarriage. [cynthianovak] Yikes! I've been told by vedic astrologers everything from I must have 2 children to fulfill my karmas to If I had a child it would be physically or mentally deranged. I guess I'm lucky I chose not to have them with my first husband. At a Tropical confernece I once attended a woman's chart with Saturn and Uranus in the 10th was being interpreted by the group. The woman had lost a child. The general consensus was that 'She wouldn't care anyway, not having motherly feelings with Sat/Ur prominent in her chart.' In this group was a well known astologer with a Ph.D. This was the last Tropical conference I ever attended. I was genuinely sick over the attitude of the group. [cynthianovak] That would scare me off too. I have only been to a few conferences. There are several really good tropical astrologers. Buz Myers blew my socks off when he read for me. HE was well known for his predictions. I drove hours and hours for my old job and listened to his tapes. Many of th tools he used I rediscovered in Vedic, he's deceased. Bebby Kempton-Smith wrote a little purple paperback: Secrets from a Stargazer's Notebook. It sold to the general public and was reprinted 8-9 times. It was a treasurechest of what she learned in practice and from Al Morrison. Nicholas Campion who gave us the Book of World Horoscopes. But I have to agree that tropical astrology las less focus on predictions. Nolle does a good job, though. So, you see, with no research the symbols of astrology (Moon supposedly being mother and Pluto supposedly having to do with death and Saturn/Uranus obviously being cold hearted) can be grossly misinterpreted. [cynthianovak] Perhaps we all need to look a little further. If my only experience with sidereal zodiac had been the 2 really awful readings, I would not have pursued it. I don't see research as looking at 70 charts of potential buyers of an apt. I'm sure that there is one that is obvious, but I don't want to spend my time with that. The Church of Light teachings had really clear information on how to set up a chart to sell property. It worked in tropical, and I translated the tools to sidereal. It gets good results. Often, the natal chart relveals whether the property will sell. Typically, the only people who come for that time of information have had difficulty selling. Currently astrology is sitting on a foundation of shifting sands. All other disciplines have at least a partial foundation in research. The astrologers of today never would have passed muster before the 20th century. Past astrolgers had to be ace mathemeticians to calculate and predict from horoscopes. Computers--how many of us even remember the basics of chart calculation?? Who cares how we can see aggression in the horoscope? Hardly anyone since each person has his or her own ideas on the matter. I didn't see any of the posts here as 'attacks.' We all get worked up over ideas or concepts (responding to transits) at various times, and obviously Alfonso wrote from one of those 'inspirational' moments. ...of course, I've had a lot of distractions lately and have had to respond quickly to posts. Maybe I missed something. Blessings, Therese " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Hi Cynthia, At 09:50 PM 10/17/04 -0500, you wrote: >...Got it! Those books sell because most folks are interested in >understanding themselves, then get the desire to learn more. I think this zeros in on the difference between the few of us who are interested in research and the majority who are interested in **themselves.** (...and by extension the psychology of their clients) My main interest is in trying to show that astrological priciples work--that would demonstrate that there IS a cosmic science and that there's order in the universe, a Divine Mind that orchistrates a mathematical order. And our ultimate purpose as human beings is to merge with what might be called the Divine Mind or God. This is how my Neptune-Venus conjunction operates. Forget the 'ideal' human relationship. It is so very small compared to the ultimate goal. With an M.A. in psychology, I've lived through all the training, searching, group work, personal traumas and so forth. Now it all seems very boring and mundane to me. The human stories are always the same, only the players are different. I've been in a Mercury dasa for a long time and my attention has turned more to science and the universal. I'm not at all suited to work with clients anymore. >Have you ever >looked at Richard Nolle's site? www.astropro.com He's tropical but very >predictive. His interest is storm activity. I used to read Nolle's magazine and followed his research. Haven't seen his site, but I'll make a note to check it out. Mundane is a very different discipline from 'people' astrology. I'm really much more intersted in astrology as it relates to individuals, but in a more universal sense than studying only singleton horoscopes. I want to be able to look at a chart and see " This person has trouble with his temper " because there's a body of research that isolates how to see this in a horoscope--not because each individual astrologer has his own view on the matter which is how astrology stands now. Astrology has been around a very long time, and we still can't really tell what kind of life work a person is suited to. At least there's no reserch that really tells us anything except the Gauquelin reserach and that's only the beginning for astrologers. >>I don't see research as looking at 70 charts of potential buyers of an apt. Neither do I. We'd need the natal charts anyway, and I'm sure they weren't available. I do see the value, however, say, in examining the charts of 40 successful attorneys and then set down the astrological principles in a way any astrologer could understand. Then we'd be able to see the related life potential in a child's horoscope. This is my approach to research. Blessings, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I think this zeros in on the difference between the few of us who are interested in research and the majority who are interested in **themselves.** (...and by extension the psychology of their clients) My main interest is in trying to show that astrological priciples work--that would demonstrate that there IS a cosmic science and that there's order in the universe, a Divine Mind that orchistrates a mathematical order. And our ultimate purpose as human beings is to merge with what might be called the Divine Mind or God. [cynthianovak] Dear Therese, I'm still not sure how you can passionately be interested in astrology, re career tendences and not be interested in people! Clients remind me daily how a person can take what might be considered a very difficult chart / life and make some great out of it. That may be a manifestation of the mind of god, it may be destiny and it may just be the beauty of spirit that triumphs over what another would buckle under. I wish you luck and success in your research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Dear Cynthia, At 05:36 PM 10/19/04 -0500, you wrote: > >Dear Therese, I'm still not sure how you can passionately be interested in >astrology, re career tendences and not be interested in people! It's not that I'm not interested in people. I care very much about helping people (especially children) see into themselves and their potential. It's just that my interest is in establishing an astrological foundation for client work rather than working with individual clients myself. Astrologers make major errors in reading horoscopes. I counseled clients when I was younger, and I realized rather quickly that there was a whole lot astrologers didn't know about astrology. >Clients >remind me daily how a person can take what might be considered a very >difficult chart / life and make some great out of it. And this is wonderful if one's work is to be a counseling astrologer. It melds into who you are as a person and helps your own development. What I find difficult is that counseling astrologers don't seem to realize that their work is only half the picture. Astrology itself still needs to develop a solid foundation of knowledge and research. There's too much " My way works, your way works, everyone's way works, isn't that enough? " If so, they why can't astrologers agree on even elementary signatures in a horoscope? Many astrologers aren't particularly gifted with intuition (as you seem to be, Cynthia). It's these astrologers who would be best working from a knowledge base. There are some really fine counseling astrologers out there and there are some really awful ones too that can genuinely harm their clients. Someone like myself with a mind that tends toward research wants to see if there's a foundation, a methodology that astrologers can refer to in their work where there will be general agreement in reading horoscopes. We haven't even reached the kindergarten stage of a universal foundation for astrology. I personally don't know if Neptunian thought will continue to form the bulk of contemporary astrology or if a general interest in research will develop. Right now it doesn't seem so. Destiny will have the say either way. You sounded mifffed at me, Cynthia, as if I were attacking you personally. All I meant to say is thay my own work is in research rather than counseling. The great majority of modern astrologers will be standing in your camp. Blessings, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Dear Therese. Not miffed at you, just very sensitive to astrologers attacking each other. Probably just hormonal me (age 49 so that is a high probability) How will you get the charts to work with? I think that what you propose if very valuable and indeed needed. It does seem daunting to do it well. If I can help you by providing charts I'll be glad to. That then gives rise to another problem, an astrologer often only has the charts of people who come seeking an astrologer and so are having some " stuff " going on. I knew a man who was a new astrologer. He worked in a health-food herbal store. He noticed that the owner kept detailed information and the clients....including their health problem, date, time and place of birth. The owner was not an astrologer so this was rather odd. This treasure trove of information gave him a lot of charts to look at. While it was fascinating to see all those charts of folks with cancer. It was hard not to presume that everyone with these Rahu factors did not have cancer. I told him that I had clients without cancer with those aspects, but he felt certain from the data he had that they would, indeed get cancer. It's hard to do really good research and I honestly wish you great success. Just today, I was talking to another astrologer. Her client was a multi-multi millionaire. There were things in his chart that we had both seen before in folks with this type of wealth, but they are not obvious in the astrology literature. Still, there are so few of these clients to read for that an astrologer can't predict a person will have that type of wealth. Again, I'm trying to say that I wish you good speed in your work and agree that it is necessary, but will say that there are different forms of astrology and different astrologers. Having been in two camps, I can't see that one is better or worse, it just depends upon the astrologer. I hope you prove me wrong great grins c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Hi Therese, I exchanged a few posts with you last year, how are you? With respect to astrological research, I think that probably the best that can be done is what Gauquelin did, for example, seeing what planet is near the ascendant for the charts of athletes. This I think is a research that focus on something very specific. Each person however has myriad characteristics, and all of them are interrelated. To do research that focus on a person as a dynamic whole is probably impossible - or so I am beginning to believe. The reason is that there are millions of different astrological influences in a chart, and it is impossible to isolate one influence from all the others, and therefore each of these influences is impossible to measure. It is utterly hopeless. Yet I think there is value in Astrology. For me, studying it helps me to know myself better, though it is a really slow process. Then astrologers can help their clients to know themselves better or to help chart their lives, but the astrologer draws on his intuition, knowledge of Psychology and human relations, etc. If he or she were to rely solely on knowledge of Astrology he or she would not get very far. Also I think an important part of the consultation between an astrologer and a client is the dialogue. By speaking to a good listener the client herself will come to a better knowledge of herself. Astrology really has only a very small part in the play. Anyway, just my two cents. António , Therese Hamilton <eastwest@s...> wrote: > Hi Cynthia, > > At 09:50 PM 10/17/04 -0500, you wrote: > > >...Got it! Those books sell because most folks are interested in > >understanding themselves, then get the desire to learn more. > > I think this zeros in on the difference between the few of us who are > interested in research and the majority who are interested in > **themselves.** (...and by extension the psychology of their clients) My > main interest is in trying to show that astrological priciples work- -that > would demonstrate that there IS a cosmic science and that there's order in > the universe, a Divine Mind that orchistrates a mathematical order. And our > ultimate purpose as human beings is to merge with what might be called the > Divine Mind or God. > > This is how my Neptune-Venus conjunction operates. Forget the 'ideal' human > relationship. It is so very small compared to the ultimate goal. With an > M.A. in psychology, I've lived through all the training, searching, group > work, personal traumas and so forth. Now it all seems very boring and > mundane to me. The human stories are always the same, only the players are > different. I've been in a Mercury dasa for a long time and my attention has > turned more to science and the universal. > > I'm not at all suited to work with clients anymore. > > >Have you ever > >looked at Richard Nolle's site? www.astropro.com He's tropical but very > >predictive. His interest is storm activity. > > I used to read Nolle's magazine and followed his research. Haven't seen his > site, but I'll make a note to check it out. Mundane is a very different > discipline from 'people' astrology. I'm really much more intersted in > astrology as it relates to individuals, but in a more universal sense than > studying only singleton horoscopes. I want to be able to look at a chart > and see " This person has trouble with his temper " because there's a body of > research that isolates how to see this in a horoscope--not because each > individual astrologer has his own view on the matter which is how astrology > stands now. > > Astrology has been around a very long time, and we still can't really tell > what kind of life work a person is suited to. At least there's no reserch > that really tells us anything except the Gauquelin reserach and that's > only the beginning for astrologers. > > >>I don't see research as looking at 70 charts of potential buyers of an > apt. > > Neither do I. We'd need the natal charts anyway, and I'm sure they weren't > available. I do see the value, however, say, in examining the charts of 40 > successful attorneys and then set down the astrological principles in a way > any astrologer could understand. Then we'd be able to see the related life > potential in a child's horoscope. This is my approach to research. > > Blessings, > Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Dear Cynthia, At 09:44 PM 10/19/04 -0500, you wrote: > >Not miffed at you, just very sensitive to astrologers attacking each other. >Probably just hormonal me (age 49 so that is a high probability) I suppose it's personal perception here. I haven't noted attcks on this list recently and didn't mean to attack anyone myself. I know that on most of the Tropical lists everyone treats each other with kid gloves. Here on the sidereal list we tend to tell it like we see it. I don't think anyone purposely sets out to offend anyone. Garth Allen's TAKING THE KID GLOVES OFF ASTROLOGY actually does a good job of reflecting the approach of western sidereal astrologers. They're a crusty lot. >How will you get the charts to work with? The Rodden/McDonough AstroDatabank. 22,000 natal charts, mostly timed and organized in hundreds of different ways. > That then gives rise to >another problem, an astrologer often only has the charts of people who come >seeking an astrologer and so are having some " stuff " going on. Yes, any one astrologer's charts will reflect a bias. This is why at least at present astrological research would never pass the academnic scientific test. The best we can do as individual astrologers is network and share the charts at our disposal. We'd learn a lot, and we'd become better astologers, but we can forget a nod from academic science. >It's hard to do really good research and I honestly wish you great success. >Just today, I was talking to another astrologer. Her client was a >multi-multi millionaire. There were things in his chart that we had both >seen before in folks with this type of wealth, but they are not obvious in >the astrology literature. Sharing these charts on-line would allow any interested astrologer to check configuratins agains millionaires in ADB. Individual astrologers see a lot in charts that hasn't been in any book. <... but will say that there are different forms of >astrology and different astrologers. Having been in two camps, I can't see >that one is better or worse, it just depends upon the astrologer. One can accept the value of different camps but realize that one's talents lie in only one camp. It's not necessary that one is 'better' than the other. When it comes to the zodiac, however, western sidereal astrologers will be right up there on the soap box. Blessings, Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Dear Therese I can agree with everything you said. I personally like the structure of Vedic, meaning the way the chart has clearly defined houses and simple aspects. Still, the texAs a tropical astrologer, I had already tossed out trines, except for Jupiter, tossed out sextiles and held onto the transits and aspects that I know from experience worked. Vedic, with the dasha system resonated with me almost immediately. It was worth it to me to make the change. Now, I'm still watching return charts. I won't use them with clients until I see results more clearly. For now, I run the return chart and after the session see if the current return makes sense with what the client is going through or working toward. I'll do that for a long time before I'll use it to predict for someone else. That's how I learned about the naks. c Therese Hamilton [eastwest] Wednesday, October 20, 2004 4:52 PM RE: Astrology/astrologers Dear Cynthia, At 09:44 PM 10/19/04 -0500, you wrote: > >Not miffed at you, just very sensitive to astrologers attacking each other. >Probably just hormonal me (age 49 so that is a high probability) I suppose it's personal perception here. I haven't noted attcks on this list recently and didn't mean to attack anyone myself. I know that on most of the Tropical lists everyone treats each other with kid gloves. Here on the sidereal list we tend to tell it like we see it. I don't think anyone purposely sets out to offend anyone. Garth Allen's TAKING THE KID GLOVES OFF ASTROLOGY actually does a good job of reflecting the approach of western sidereal astrologers. They're a crusty lot. >How will you get the charts to work with? The Rodden/McDonough AstroDatabank. 22,000 natal charts, mostly timed and organized in hundreds of different ways. > That then gives rise to >another problem, an astrologer often only has the charts of people who come >seeking an astrologer and so are having some " stuff " going on. Yes, any one astrologer's charts will reflect a bias. This is why at least at present astrological research would never pass the academnic scientific test. The best we can do as individual astrologers is network and share the charts at our disposal. We'd learn a lot, and we'd become better astologers, but we can forget a nod from academic science. >It's hard to do really good research and I honestly wish you great success. >Just today, I was talking to another astrologer. Her client was a >multi-multi millionaire. There were things in his chart that we had both >seen before in folks with this type of wealth, but they are not obvious in >the astrology literature. Sharing these charts on-line would allow any interested astrologer to check configuratins agains millionaires in ADB. Individual astrologers see a lot in charts that hasn't been in any book. <... but will say that there are different forms of >astrology and different astrologers. Having been in two camps, I can't see >that one is better or worse, it just depends upon the astrologer. One can accept the value of different camps but realize that one's talents lie in only one camp. It's not necessary that one is 'better' than the other. When it comes to the zodiac, however, western sidereal astrologers will be right up there on the soap box. Blessings, Therese " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Hi Antonio! At 09:29 AM 10/20/04 -0000, you wrote: >I exchanged a few posts with you last year, how are >you? You know, when someone asks me that question, I blank out. I think this happens because I'm always working with astrology and turning over ideas in my mind and not concentrating on how I might be feeling. But thanks for asking! Under Mercury dasa, Mercury is my most active planet right now. >With respect to astrological research, I think that >probably the best that can be done is what Gauquelin >did, for example, seeing what planet is near the >ascendant for the charts of athletes. This I think is a >research that focus on something very specific. The Gauquelin reserach was a bit more complex than what you describe. But astrologers know that the Gauquelin discovery that planets seem to be active in cadent sectors is only a small part of interpreting the horoscope. Yes, statistically Mars in cadent sectors shows up in the charts of atheletes, but what about all those athletes who have Mars elsewhere in the chart? >...The reason is that there >are millions of different astrological influences in a >chart, and it is impossible to isolate one influence >from all the others, and therefore each of these >influences is impossible to measure. It is utterly >hopeless. It would seem so. A friend once told me of a vision he had about interpreting the horoscope. He was looking into a pool, and millions of stars were reflected in the pool. A voice said, " Unless you have the spiritual key, it's impossible to know which stars (factors) apply to any one individual. " (paraphrased) Then there's the hundreds of different ways each planet can manifest toned by each sign, fixed stars, etc. However, I've done enough research to know that it's possible to isolate enough factors for any one trait so that perhaps you'll be able to accurately see the potential for that trait in 80 percent of horoscopes. >Yet I think there is value in Astrology. For me, >studying it helps me to know myself better, Yes...the astrologer's theme song. >though it >is a really slow process. Then astrologers can help >their clients to know themselves better or to help >chart their lives, ....and the astrologer had better have some solid professional training in psychology, which includes a lot of self-work individually and in groups. (I've been through it.) Because there are so many astrological books that emphasize psychology, most astrologers feel they're expert psychologists and counselors...and they may have very little or no professional training. (Counseling and consultation are two different areas. If an astrologer is simply helping a client to choose dates, that's a whole different matter.) >>but the astrologer draws on his >intuition, ....which unfortunately is often faulty. We all percieve through our own somewhat clouded psychic eyesight. >>If he or she were to rely solely on knowledge of >Astrology he or she would not get very far. Both are needed, I believe. Solid knowledge and intuition. >Also I >think an important part of the consultation between an >astrologer and a client is the dialogue. By speaking to >a good listener the client herself will come to a >better knowledge of herself. Astrology really has only >a very small part in the play. Yes, this is true. In any counseling situation, it's the interaction, the dialog, the exchange of psychic energy, the ability of the counselor to listen that's important. Thanks for your 'two cents,' Antonio! Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Dear Therese and all I realized that I didn't explain this, I just wanted to show that I and I presume other astrologers do a sort of research as we work. It may not be the same, but my assumption is that most astrologers have developed a way to learn. If this is your work, you better be good or " famous " or people won't return. I think that all of the research is valuable and the more we communicate and share our findings the more we can evolve astrology. My ideal would be to cooperate. smiles c cynthianovak [cynthianovak] Wednesday, October 20, 2004 5:15 PM RE: RE: Astrology/astrologers Dear Therese I can agree with everything you said. I personally like the structure of Vedic, meaning the way the chart has clearly defined houses and simple aspects. Still, the texAs a tropical astrologer, I had already tossed out trines, except for Jupiter, tossed out sextiles and held onto the transits and aspects that I know from experience worked. Vedic, with the dasha system resonated with me almost immediately. It was worth it to me to make the change. Now, I'm still watching return charts. I won't use them with clients until I see results more clearly. For now, I run the return chart and after the session see if the current return makes sense with what the client is going through or working toward. I'll do that for a long time before I'll use it to predict for someone else. That's how I learned about the naks. c Therese Hamilton [eastwest] Wednesday, October 20, 2004 4:52 PM RE: Astrology/astrologers Dear Cynthia, At 09:44 PM 10/19/04 -0500, you wrote: > >Not miffed at you, just very sensitive to astrologers attacking each other. >Probably just hormonal me (age 49 so that is a high probability) I suppose it's personal perception here. I haven't noted attcks on this list recently and didn't mean to attack anyone myself. I know that on most of the Tropical lists everyone treats each other with kid gloves. Here on the sidereal list we tend to tell it like we see it. I don't think anyone purposely sets out to offend anyone. Garth Allen's TAKING THE KID GLOVES OFF ASTROLOGY actually does a good job of reflecting the approach of western sidereal astrologers. They're a crusty lot. >How will you get the charts to work with? The Rodden/McDonough AstroDatabank. 22,000 natal charts, mostly timed and organized in hundreds of different ways. > That then gives rise to >another problem, an astrologer often only has the charts of people who come >seeking an astrologer and so are having some " stuff " going on. Yes, any one astrologer's charts will reflect a bias. This is why at least at present astrological research would never pass the academnic scientific test. The best we can do as individual astrologers is network and share the charts at our disposal. We'd learn a lot, and we'd become better astologers, but we can forget a nod from academic science. >It's hard to do really good research and I honestly wish you great success. >Just today, I was talking to another astrologer. Her client was a >multi-multi millionaire. There were things in his chart that we had both >seen before in folks with this type of wealth, but they are not obvious in >the astrology literature. Sharing these charts on-line would allow any interested astrologer to check configuratins agains millionaires in ADB. Individual astrologers see a lot in charts that hasn't been in any book. <... but will say that there are different forms of >astrology and different astrologers. Having been in two camps, I can't see >that one is better or worse, it just depends upon the astrologer. One can accept the value of different camps but realize that one's talents lie in only one camp. It's not necessary that one is 'better' than the other. When it comes to the zodiac, however, western sidereal astrologers will be right up there on the soap box. Blessings, Therese " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 At 05:14 PM 10/20/04 -0500, Cynthia wrote: > >Now, I'm still watching return charts. I won't use them with clients until >I see results more clearly. For now, I run the return chart and after the >session see if the current return makes sense with what the client is going >through or working toward. Cynthia, A great approach to return charts! I watch them for my family, but I'm still not totally decided about birthplace vs. locale charts. Still studying and watching... My problem now (I think it's my age...) is that I get mentally tired and have to stop thinking and studying. Then it's time to clean the house or take a walk in the sunshine! A good balance to mental work actually. :) Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Dear Therese This is exactly what I'm watching. It's shaping up like the natal returns are stronger, but I'll keep trying. I can really see the validity in returns for people who are living where they were born. It's sometimes down right spooky. c Therese Hamilton [eastwest] Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:58 PM RE: RE: Astrology/astrologers At 05:14 PM 10/20/04 -0500, Cynthia wrote: > >Now, I'm still watching return charts. I won't use them with clients until >I see results more clearly. For now, I run the return chart and after the >session see if the current return makes sense with what the client is going >through or working toward. Cynthia, A great approach to return charts! I watch them for my family, but I'm still not totally decided about birthplace vs. locale charts. Still studying and watching... My problem now (I think it's my age...) is that I get mentally tired and have to stop thinking and studying. Then it's time to clean the house or take a walk in the sunshine! A good balance to mental work actually. :) Therese " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Cynthia..... ideology often will find itself at your doorstep and sometimes In some ways cooperation is possible.... What did you learn about(nak.. nak... who dat?) the naks that u are able to utilize? You're " primarily " a vedic astrologer? Juan cynthianovak <cynthianovak wrote: Dear Therese and all I realized that I didn't explain this, I just wanted to show that I and I presume other astrologers do a sort of research as we work. It may not be the same, but my assumption is that most astrologers have developed a way to learn. If this is your work, you better be good or " famous " or people won't return. I think that all of the research is valuable and the more we communicate and share our findings the more we can evolve astrology. My ideal would be to cooperate. smiles c cynthianovak [cynthianovak] Wednesday, October 20, 2004 5:15 PM RE: RE: Astrology/astrologers Dear Therese I can agree with everything you said. I personally like the structure of Vedic, meaning the way the chart has clearly defined houses and simple aspects. Still, the texAs a tropical astrologer, I had already tossed out trines, except for Jupiter, tossed out sextiles and held onto the transits and aspects that I know from experience worked. Vedic, with the dasha system resonated with me almost immediately. It was worth it to me to make the change. Now, I'm still watching return charts. I won't use them with clients until I see results more clearly. For now, I run the return chart and after the session see if the current return makes sense with what the client is going through or working toward. I'll do that for a long time before I'll use it to predict for someone else. That's how I learned about the naks. c Therese Hamilton [eastwest] Wednesday, October 20, 2004 4:52 PM RE: Astrology/astrologers Dear Cynthia, At 09:44 PM 10/19/04 -0500, you wrote: > >Not miffed at you, just very sensitive to astrologers attacking each other. >Probably just hormonal me (age 49 so that is a high probability) I suppose it's personal perception here. I haven't noted attcks on this list recently and didn't mean to attack anyone myself. I know that on most of the Tropical lists everyone treats each other with kid gloves. Here on the sidereal list we tend to tell it like we see it. I don't think anyone purposely sets out to offend anyone. Garth Allen's TAKING THE KID GLOVES OFF ASTROLOGY actually does a good job of reflecting the approach of western sidereal astrologers. They're a crusty lot. >How will you get the charts to work with? The Rodden/McDonough AstroDatabank. 22,000 natal charts, mostly timed and organized in hundreds of different ways. > That then gives rise to >another problem, an astrologer often only has the charts of people who come >seeking an astrologer and so are having some " stuff " going on. Yes, any one astrologer's charts will reflect a bias. This is why at least at present astrological research would never pass the academnic scientific test. The best we can do as individual astrologers is network and share the charts at our disposal. We'd learn a lot, and we'd become better astologers, but we can forget a nod from academic science. >It's hard to do really good research and I honestly wish you great success. >Just today, I was talking to another astrologer. Her client was a >multi-multi millionaire. There were things in his chart that we had both >seen before in folks with this type of wealth, but they are not obvious in >the astrology literature. Sharing these charts on-line would allow any interested astrologer to check configuratins agains millionaires in ADB. Individual astrologers see a lot in charts that hasn't been in any book. <... but will say that there are different forms of >astrology and different astrologers. Having been in two camps, I can't see >that one is better or worse, it just depends upon the astrologer. One can accept the value of different camps but realize that one's talents lie in only one camp. It's not necessary that one is 'better' than the other. When it comes to the zodiac, however, western sidereal astrologers will be right up there on the soap box. Blessings, Therese " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Cynthia..... ideology often will find itself at your doorstep and sometimes In some ways cooperation is possible.... What did you learn about(nak.. nak... who dat?) the naks that u are able to utilize? You're " primarily " a vedic astrologer? Juan cynthianovak <cynthianovak wrote: Dear Therese and all I realized that I didn't explain this, I just wanted to show that I and I presume other astrologers do a sort of research as we work. It may not be the same, but my assumption is that most astrologers have developed a way to learn. If this is your work, you better be good or " famous " or people won't return. I think that all of the research is valuable and the more we communicate and share our findings the more we can evolve astrology. My ideal would be to cooperate. smiles c cynthianovak [cynthianovak] Wednesday, October 20, 2004 5:15 PM RE: RE: Astrology/astrologers Dear Therese I can agree with everything you said. I personally like the structure of Vedic, meaning the way the chart has clearly defined houses and simple aspects. Still, the texAs a tropical astrologer, I had already tossed out trines, except for Jupiter, tossed out sextiles and held onto the transits and aspects that I know from experience worked. Vedic, with the dasha system resonated with me almost immediately. It was worth it to me to make the change. Now, I'm still watching return charts. I won't use them with clients until I see results more clearly. For now, I run the return chart and after the session see if the current return makes sense with what the client is going through or working toward. I'll do that for a long time before I'll use it to predict for someone else. That's how I learned about the naks. c Therese Hamilton [eastwest] Wednesday, October 20, 2004 4:52 PM RE: Astrology/astrologers Dear Cynthia, At 09:44 PM 10/19/04 -0500, you wrote: > >Not miffed at you, just very sensitive to astrologers attacking each other. >Probably just hormonal me (age 49 so that is a high probability) I suppose it's personal perception here. I haven't noted attcks on this list recently and didn't mean to attack anyone myself. I know that on most of the Tropical lists everyone treats each other with kid gloves. Here on the sidereal list we tend to tell it like we see it. I don't think anyone purposely sets out to offend anyone. Garth Allen's TAKING THE KID GLOVES OFF ASTROLOGY actually does a good job of reflecting the approach of western sidereal astrologers. They're a crusty lot. >How will you get the charts to work with? The Rodden/McDonough AstroDatabank. 22,000 natal charts, mostly timed and organized in hundreds of different ways. > That then gives rise to >another problem, an astrologer often only has the charts of people who come >seeking an astrologer and so are having some " stuff " going on. Yes, any one astrologer's charts will reflect a bias. This is why at least at present astrological research would never pass the academnic scientific test. The best we can do as individual astrologers is network and share the charts at our disposal. We'd learn a lot, and we'd become better astologers, but we can forget a nod from academic science. >It's hard to do really good research and I honestly wish you great success. >Just today, I was talking to another astrologer. Her client was a >multi-multi millionaire. There were things in his chart that we had both >seen before in folks with this type of wealth, but they are not obvious in >the astrology literature. Sharing these charts on-line would allow any interested astrologer to check configuratins agains millionaires in ADB. Individual astrologers see a lot in charts that hasn't been in any book. <... but will say that there are different forms of >astrology and different astrologers. Having been in two camps, I can't see >that one is better or worse, it just depends upon the astrologer. One can accept the value of different camps but realize that one's talents lie in only one camp. It's not necessary that one is 'better' than the other. When it comes to the zodiac, however, western sidereal astrologers will be right up there on the soap box. Blessings, Therese " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Hi Therese, Please see below. , Therese Hamilton <eastwest@s...> wrote: > Hi Antonio! > > >I exchanged a few posts with you last year, how are > >you? > > You know, when someone asks me that question, I blank out. I think this > happens because I'm always working with astrology and turning over ideas in > my mind and not concentrating on how I might be feeling. But thanks for > asking! Under Mercury dasa, Mercury is my most active planet right now. Mindfulness, mindfulness, where art thou? ;-) > The Gauquelin reserach was a bit more complex than what you describe. But > astrologers know that the Gauquelin discovery that planets seem to be > active in cadent sectors is only a small part of interpreting the > horoscope. Yes, statistically Mars in cadent sectors shows up in the charts > of atheletes, but what about all those athletes who have Mars elsewhere in > the chart? That's my point, you cannot just look at only one planet. > > >...The reason is that there > >are millions of different astrological influences in a > >chart, and it is impossible to isolate one influence > >from all the others, and therefore each of these > >influences is impossible to measure. It is utterly > >hopeless. > > It would seem so. A friend once told me of a vision he had about > interpreting the horoscope. He was looking into a pool, and millions of > stars were reflected in the pool. A voice said, " Unless you have the > spiritual key, it's impossible to know which stars (factors) apply to any > one individual. " (paraphrased) I also think that if having a deep knowledge of Astrology is possible at all, then it would take a mystic to have such a knowledge. The problem is that mystics are not writing Astrology books. I have on my shelves books on the six major world religions, and I am not aware of any mystic that lived in the past thousand years that has written an Astrology book. If we go further back the picture may be different. For example, we really don't know who wrote the I-Ching, but it might have been a mystic. Why don't mystics write Astrology books? It may be that they have no usefulness for Astrology, or no interest in the same. Alternatively if they had the knowledge, they might have preferred to keep it secret. For example, when the historical Buddha was asked about what came after death, he always refused to answer. It's a pity really. Zen master Dogen said that studying Buddhism is to study ourselves. That is the spirit in which I study Astrology. However Astrology can also be used for example to bet on horses, and some spiritual masters might think that is not a good use for it, and to prevent " bad " uses they keep silent. > Then there's the hundreds of different ways each planet can manifest toned > by each sign, fixed stars, etc. > > However, I've done enough research to know that it's possible to isolate > enough factors for any one trait so that perhaps you'll be able to > accurately see the potential for that trait in 80 percent of horoscopes. How can you isolate? For example, I know that there are standard psychological questionnaires, used for different purposes, but they focus on one or just a few sides of a person. For example, I have my own chart interpretation in a file with 450 pages and I don't think it describes even 5 % of me. So how do you isolate, and is there any meaning in isolating? > >Then astrologers can help > >their clients to know themselves better or to help > >chart their lives, > > ...and the astrologer had better have some solid professional training in > psychology, which includes a lot of self-work individually and in groups. > (I've been through it.) Because there are so many astrological books that > emphasize psychology, most astrologers feel they're expert psychologists > and counselors...and they may have very little or no professional training. > > (Counseling and consultation are two different areas. If an astrologer is > simply helping a client to choose dates, that's a whole different matter.) Yes, I agree, especially with the self-work bit. I know some astrologers that have very obvious character faults. While nobody is perfect, one would expect that those that want to help others would first know how to help themselves. > >>but the astrologer draws on his > >intuition, > > ...which unfortunately is often faulty. We all percieve through our own > somewhat clouded psychic eyesight. Completely agree. Intuition is great, but only a few can have a clear and direct channel to it. In my case I know that while sometimes that channel is clear, often it is not. It varies a lot, depending for example on how agitated is my mind, on how much I have been taken by my desires. > Thanks for your 'two cents,' Antonio! > > Therese It's my pleasure chatting with you! António Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 , António <almaliq@h...> wrote: > I also think that if having a deep knowledge of > Astrology is possible at all, then it would take a > mystic to have such a knowledge. The problem is that > mystics are not writing Astrology books. I have on my > shelves books on the six major world religions, and I > am not aware of any mystic that lived in the past > thousand years that has written an Astrology book. Please see: http://www.besharapublications.org.uk/MysticalAstrology.html Ibn 'Araba was 'one of the greatest mystics of any age.' He was a Sufi and a Muslim. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Hi Andrew, Thanks a lot for sharing that information. I had no idea that Ibn 'Arabî had anything to do with Astrology. I was however familiar with him because I own a partial translation of the Kitâb al'Futûhât al'Makkiyya. The translation I have, though, focus on spiritual love. António , " kyuseiki " <kyuseiki> wrote: > > , António <almaliq@h...> wrote: > > > I also think that if having a deep knowledge of > > Astrology is possible at all, then it would take a > > mystic to have such a knowledge. The problem is that > > mystics are not writing Astrology books. I have on my > > shelves books on the six major world religions, and I > > am not aware of any mystic that lived in the past > > thousand years that has written an Astrology book. > > Please see: > > http://www.besharapublications.org.uk/MysticalAstrology.html > > Ibn 'Araba was 'one of the greatest mystics of any age.' He was a Sufi > and a Muslim. > > Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 At 01:14 PM 10/21/04 -0000, Antonio wrote: > >That's my point, you cannot just look at only one >planet. Something the Gauquelins never quite learned. >I also think that if having a deep knowledge of >Astrology is possible at all, then it would take a >mystic to have such a knowledge. The problem is that >mystics are not writing Astrology books. Right, although I've heard that Sri Yukteswar set down some text on astrology that's owned by a metaphsyical group. I'm not sure if the text was every translated into English. (This wasn't Yogananda's organization.) But no book will make us mystics. We have only our fallable human minds to depend on. >Why don't mystics write Astrology books? Because if you can experience the entire universe and beyond as 'you,' why write an astrology book? It would be like one of us sitting down and tracing our ABCs on kindergarten line paper. >How can you isolate? First you isolate the planet responsible for a trait. Say Mars and aggression. Many psychological traits can indeed be linked to only one planet. But the trick is how to isolate the planet in the horoscope and exactly how the traits of that planet will operate. I have lots of little projects I hope to put on my web site when there's time. But lately...I've been so tired and preoccupied. It's much easier to illustrate an answer to your question with horoscopes than try to explain it. >Yes, I agree, especially with the self-work bit. I know >some astrologers that have very obvious character >faults. While nobody is perfect, one would expect that >those that want to help others would first know how to >help themselves. Right now astrologers are all over the field with many of them having little insight into themselves. I wonder what percentage of astrologers have professional psychological training? Probably not too many. In this sense the sidereal astrologers are better off because they deal mostly with mundane prediction. >Intuition is great, but only a few >can have a clear and direct channel to it. In my case I >know that while sometimes that channel is clear, often >it is not. It varies a lot, depending for example on >how agitated is my mind, on how much I have been taken >by my desires. ....And it's the same for all of us. >It's my pleasure chatting with you! Thanks, Antonio. I'm sorry I don't have time and energy to write more. I haven't had much on-line time lately. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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