Guest guest Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 Therese Hamilton wrote: > > Similarly, the K Cancer ingress happened just prior to yesterday's > tragic fire, while the F-B ingress didn't occur until after the event. Hi Therese, The fact that the ingress happened a day after the event doesn't bother me in the slightest--a day or so out is not a problem. As an example, the Solar Eclipse that occurred angular in Paris (within minutes of the IC), in the center of Leo( for royalty) a day after the death of Princess Diana. The Fagan ingress was 12 Cancer rising for Delhi, as opposed to Krishnamurti at 5 Cancer. I didn't mention this, because I was looking for angles closer than this to pick up the Mars//Saturn/Pluto at 19 Cancer--but this is still close enough to be considered a hit (only for Fagan here of course). > > . First, let's look at the Krishnamurti > ingress chart which occurred on July 16 at 5:59:48 a.m. This is a very > critical chart for Kumbakonam. 29 Gemini 42 rises. We should be able to pick this out of the Delhi chart in some way as well, since this was a national tragedy. If I were looking regularly at lunations, ingress charts etc for India, I wouldn't be looking at Kumbakonam to pick a national event. > . > > Aside from being in the critical 29th degree, Pollux is of reddish hue, and > Ptolemy assigned the nature of this star to Mars. The ascendant lord > Mercury is at 24 Cancer conjunct Mars at 20 Cancer. Neptune opposes this > duo from 22 Capricorn near the cusp of the 8th equal house cusp. If an > astrologer had checked this ingress chart in Kumbakonam, the red warning > lights would have immediately started flashing. I hate to be sarcastic here, but if the fire trucks were coming, I probably wouldn't have pulled over. Warning lights normally flash for me on ingress, lunations etc when I see expected planets come to angles. I can't recall the reddish hue of Pollux being an ingredient in any fire I've ever seen--but then again, I probably wasn't looking. > > . > > Moving ahead to the event, we see that the Moon has come to the M.C. which > places the ingress Ketu-Uranus focus just on this angle. Saturn is on the > other side of the M.C. with the Sun. Rahu in Mars-ruled Aries is on the 8th > equal cusp. The ascendant at 17 Virgo is the focus of a yod (common in > major quake charts) from Uranus in the 6th and Rahu in the 8th. The Neptune > opposite Mars aspects the ascendant via the trine and sextile. Ascendant > lord Mercury is with Mars. So the primary stress aspects in the ingress > chart only hours before are configured with the angles in the event chart. > The timing mechanism was the Moon reaching the M.C. of Kumbakonam. You are basing all of this on a speculative time of 11:20. I've heard reports that the fire actually started at 10:30 and other reports giving 11:00. If any astrologer living in India could have predicted this fire in advance, based on the above, my hat goes off to him. The fire (IMO) was caused by the simple transit of Mars to the natal Indian chart Saturn/Pluto/IC. It's this combination I want to see angular in an ingress chart. As a test for this idea of Mars activating the natal Indian chart for fires, and appearing on angles for ingress charts, we can look at the last worst fire in India, mentioned in the same article as the current fire. That fire occurred on December 23, 1995 about 40 miles from the town of Sirsa in northern India (29N32) (75E01). Over 400 children were killed in that blaze. The actual event has an exact Mars/Mercury conjunction at 22 Sag (Fagan) This of course is in close quincunx to the natal Mars/Pluto/IC of the Indian chart which occurs at 19 and 20 of Cancer. The ingress of the Sun into Sagittarius (Fagan) prior to the event for Delhi, gives 19 Sag rising, Mars at 18 Sag and Mercury at 13 Sag. Relocated to Sirsa, rising is 16 Sag. Mars is just a little over a degree off the ascendant for both locations. 19 Sag rising aspects to the degree the Indian natal Saturn/Pluto by quincunx. The ingress of the Sun into Sag (Krishnamurti), for Delhi, gives nearly 3 Cap rising, with Neptune at 0 Cap and Uranus at 4 Cap. Ingress for Sirsa gives 0 Cap and thus places Neptune by degree on the ascendant. One of the worst train wrecks (or the worst) to happen in Indian history was on August 1, 1999. On that day, Saturn at 21 Aries, Mars at 16 Libra, Uranus at 20 Capricorn, and Rahu/Ketu at 18 Cancer/Cap. All points interacting with the Indian Saturn/Pluto and MC/IC. I haven't looked at the any ingress charts for the wreck, as I'm about out of steam on this subject. Best, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 At 01:28 AM 7/18/04 -0700, Steve wrote: >The fact that the ingress happened a day after the event doesn't bother me in >the slightest--a day or so out is not a problem... Steve, astrologers hold different views of the timing of events. I personally expect the marker for an event to happen before the event itself. That is my view. As for eclipse charts, I haven't really worked with them. An ingress, however is a *prior* event because it's the entrance of the Sun into a zodiacal sign. >The Fagan ingress was 12 Cancer rising for Delhi, as opposed to Krishnamurti at >5 Cancer. I didn't mention this, because I was looking for angles closer than >this to pick up the Mars//Saturn/Pluto at 19 Cancer--but this is still close >enough to be considered a hit (only for Fagan here of course). I expect more exact contacts for major traumatic events. Again, this is my view. Only a lot of research for major events will tilt the evidence one way or another. For events at a specific locale, I look only at charts for that locale. Unless it's the chart of a person, as in the coming election. I went round and round with the locale charts for the individuals and finally tossed them out as introducing too many choices of planets on angles. I know, however, that the western sidereal tradition considers locale charts to be very important. >> Aside from being in the critical 29th degree, Pollux is of reddish hue, and >> Ptolemy assigned the nature of this star to Mars. The ascendant lord >> Mercury is at 24 Cancer conjunct Mars at 20 Cancer. Neptune opposes this >> duo from 22 Capricorn near the cusp of the 8th equal house cusp. If an >> astrologer had checked this ingress chart in Kumbakonam, the red warning >> lights would have immediately started flashing. >You are basing all of this on a speculative time of 11:20. I've heard reports >that the fire actually started at 10:30 and other reports giving 11:00. Yes, Indians are notoriouslly casual about timing. I've observed this during my trips to India in the past. We will probably never know the exact time of the fire. So it would be the ingress chart that we'd have to depend on to reflect the event. >The fire (IMO) was caused by the simple transit of Mars to the natal Indian >chart Saturn/Pluto/IC. It's this combination I want to see angular in an >ingress chart. Mars makes this transit every two years. We need a more specific marker, and at a least for the time being, I'm looking at the solar ingress charts. It's the close **aspect structure in relation to the Moon, Asc and M.C.** of the ingress charts that I focus on. That's the key, not a single point in relation to some other chart, even a national one. It also looks like there are very exact conjunctions to relevant fixed stars for charts that affect large numbers of people, events that hit the world news media. That's another possible research focus. It would help us to get a better handle on the fixed stars. I have to compute the charts for the events you mentioned in the last part of your post. Then I'll post my comments. Of course I'd also expect transits to the Indian natal chart for major events, but it would be the local ingress (in my opinion) that would point out the seriousness of the event at that specific location and time (month). I'd use the two together. When we don't have the birth time of a country or locale, then we have to rely solely on the ingress charts or some other timing method. Thanks for your reply, Steve. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Steve - " Steven Stuckey " <shastrakara Sunday, July 18, 2004 1:28 AM Re: Kumbakonam Fire/Cancer Ingress > > > Therese Hamilton wrote: > > > > > Similarly, the K Cancer ingress happened just prior to yesterday's > > tragic fire, while the F-B ingress didn't occur until after the event. > > Hi Therese, > > The fact that the ingress happened a day after the event doesn't bother me in > the slightest--a day or so out is not a problem. > As an example, the Solar Eclipse that occurred angular in Paris (within minutes > of the IC), in the center of Leo( for royalty) a day after the death of Princess > Diana. > > The Fagan ingress was 12 Cancer rising for Delhi, as opposed to Krishnamurti at > 5 Cancer. I didn't mention this, because I was looking for angles closer than > this to pick up the Mars//Saturn/Pluto at 19 Cancer--but this is still close > enough to be considered a hit (only for Fagan here of course). While I find the timing of this Fagan ingress one day after the event a bit weird, the fact that the Fagan Asc 12Cn48 is exactly conjunct natal Mercury 12Cn47, significator of young people, should still be noted. I don't know how old these kids were, but I think Mercury is a better stand in for them than the Moon which governs infants. I will stand to be corrected if anyone can provide good information on that. This Mercury hit combined with the Mars hit to those three points make for a plausible picture of the fire. Of course, all the ayanamshas can provide their own hits that proponents can then fill in the blanks. Krishnamurti ingress ascendant 4Cn40 is conjunct natal Moon 4Cn05 (MC 26Pi is trining Pluto 26Sc), while the Lahiri ingress pulls up the nodes nicely: Asc 5Le47 square natal Rahu 5Ta51 and MC 3Ta43 is conjunct that Rahu. Maybe we'd be best served by using all 3 ayanamshas. For train crashes, however, I like to use Raman's ayanamsha... > > > > > . First, let's look at the Krishnamurti > > ingress chart which occurred on July 16 at 5:59:48 a.m. This is a very > > critical chart for Kumbakonam. 29 Gemini 42 rises. > > We should be able to pick this out of the Delhi chart in some way as well, > since this was a national tragedy. If I were looking regularly at lunations, > ingress charts etc for India, I wouldn't be looking at Kumbakonam to pick a > national event. I agree with your preference for looking at national charts (or at least municipal charts) since they are the only ones that mortal astrologers have a decent chance of using for correct prediction. This habit of using exact location charts for earthquakes (always post facto) and and other disasters has always puzzled me, since it is so much more difficult to say ahead of time where an event will occur. I guess some people are getting pretty handy with Solar Maps. I know there are some astrologers who specialize in earthquakes always cast ingress charts, eclipses, etc. of key places on the big fault lines in California. That's probably a good idea, but then again, you already have the location picked out ahead of time. The other thing I wanted to add is the possibility of using the parallax corrected lunar return for June 20. While I do not always use parallax, I think there is a stronger case for using it for lunar returns and eclipses. Obviously, there is no difference using either ayanamsha. The measurements using Fagan are: LR MC 5Vi49 is exactly square natal Mars 6Ge34 and of course LR Mars 3Cn06 is conjunct LR Moon 3Cn31. By comparison, the geocentric LR have the angles as Asc 27Li and MC 3Le. That LR MC is semisextile the Mars Moon conj in the LR. But that's perhaps not as clear as the MC squaring of natal Mars. Ideally, I feel that both topo and geo returns should be used but that can take up a lot of time. Chris --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release 7/3/04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Christopher Kevill wrote: > > While I find the timing of this Fagan ingress one day after the event > a bit > weird, the fact that the Fagan Asc 12Cn48 is exactly conjunct natal > Mercury > 12Cn47, significator of young people, should still be noted. Hi Chris, I've seen this enough (lunations, returns etc. that happen slightly after the event) to become convinced that it works. For instance, it's common for astrologers to notice the effects of a lunar return a few days before the return starts, or in the case of a solar return, a few weeks before. Nature, and astrology, are not always logical and linear--unless of course you are a natal Mercury/Saturn. Personally I can stretch a bit into the non linear world, despite having a Gemini Moon--but please don't ask me to do Converse returns. :>)) > I don't know > how old these kids were, but I think Mercury is a better stand in for > them > than the Moon which governs infants. I will stand to be corrected if > anyone > can provide good information on that. This Mercury hit combined with > the > Mars hit to those three points make for a plausible picture of the > fire. The kids were all ages 8-10. I think of Mercury as an impish youth and always ruling students of any age. The Moon can also rule children in my opinion. While doing the post on Martha Stewart, the day before the fire, I interpreted the symbology of the transits on the 16th as trouble for cooks and women in general. The implications of some sort of tragedy were there, by way of Mars in Cancer opposite Neptune (trouble for cooks or perhaps a fire in the kitchen) and the Moon/Saturn/ in Gemini quincunx Pluto in Scorpio, which might have been seen as death of students. The above, while fitting nicely into the fire scenario, would have been a stretch of course to see in advance. The Moon/Saturn is often there in mass deaths, the nuclear detonation of Hiroshima being one such case ( Moon/Saturn exact conjunction at 24 Gemini along with Rahu and Venus). Whenever Mars and Neptune get together (in this case by exact degree opposition) one might anticipate something bad is going to happen. Only children were killed in the fire--all teachers and other personnel escaped. Six government officials are being arrested in the case, including one engineer who approved the building--even though it was not up to code---bribery is common and is suspected also in this case. > > For train crashes, however, I like to use Raman's ayanamsha.. I personally use the Djwhal Khul ayanamsa (from the teachings of Alice Bailey) for ingress charts during the summer months here in LA (it helps me keep Cool and seems to save on the air conditioning bill). > > > > I agree with your preference for looking at national charts (or at > least > municipal charts) since they are the only ones that mortal astrologers > have > a decent chance of using for correct prediction. This habit of using > exact > location charts for earthquakes (always post facto) and and other > disasters > has always puzzled me, since it is so much more difficult to say ahead > of > time where an event will occur. I guess some people are getting > pretty > handy with Solar Maps. Studying exact dates and locations of events post facto can definitely help in learning what caused the event and one would hope this would eventually lead to increased ability to predict ahead of time. Picking an exact location is of course the rub---Solar Maps is definitely a great tool here, for picking up planet angularity, paran lines, etc for various locations. Solar Eclipse lines are also excellent, and the line of totality will sometimes demark exact locations of events (as in the big Turkey quake some years ago that fell precisely on the totality line). Municipal, state, national, inauguration, cornerstone charts etc are another alternative... > > > The other thing I wanted to add is the possibility of using the > parallax > corrected lunar return for June 20. While I do not always use > parallax, I > think there is a stronger case for using it for lunar returns and > eclipses. I'm in the habit of not using parallax corrected returns, despite the logic of these returns. > > Ideally, I feel that both topo and geo > returns should be used but that can take up a lot of time. I think you might be right on this--I have done work using both, as well as testing the efficacy of various ayanamsas--both are incredibly time consuming and may also lead you in a number of different directions--making it more difficult to make up your mind. Best, Steve > > > Chris > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release 7/3/04 > > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > / > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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