Questions - Part 1

[Guest guest]

Hi Elizabeth,

 

I'll tackle your first question, but hope that someone else will reply to #2.

 

At 06:47 PM 9/1/03 -0000, you wrote:

 

>1. The four elements (water, fire, earth and air) seem to be very

>important to Tropical astrologers. In my experience, they seem to

>consider the elements to be an even more important indicator of the

>characteristics of a sign than the traditional myths and planets

>are. I've actually read in several tropical astrology books that the

>four elements are the *key* to the signs.

 

I've covered this very important topic in a series of articles that were

published in 2000 in the ISAR Journal, TIA. These articles have been

revised will be on-line soon. Elizabeth, if you'd like to see them sooner,

I can send them to you as attachments. Just tell me the format you'd like

them in: WordPerfect? Word? (an earlier version) Please send a private

e-mail to eastwest so I can reply.

 

In my opinion the 'elements' (triplicites or trigons) are extremely

important. But western sidereal astrologers don't use them. I've concluded

that in the sidereal zodiac they still work, but the signs have different

meanings than the Tropical signs. So instead of 'elements' we talk about

Trigons: The Aries trigon, Taurus trigon, etc. (The trigons aren't really

'elements,' but somehow element names were tacked on to the signs early on.)

 

>Example: Pisces is first

>and foremost a WATER sign, and Water is supposed to be emotional,

>passive, introspective and intuitive; and therefore the sign Pisces

>is supposed to have these qualities.

 

Tropical Pisces is Sidereal Aquarius. Some of these Tropical meanings

transfer all right and some are wrong. The Tropical water signs (sidereal

Gem, Lib, Aqu) aren't really emotional. They tend more toward intuition and

introspection, however. Think about the Tropical fire signs. They're the

*emotional* ones, they're all over the place, often love to fight for

causes, jump before they think, etc. These traits belong to the sidereal

Cancer trigon. The Hellenistic lords of this Trigon were Venus and Mars:

emotional Venus, fiery Mars. Makes sense, doesn't it?

 

Sidereal Cancer is the political sign (exaltation of Jupiter). It's like

Tropical Leo.

 

Sidereal Scorpio is ruled by Mars. This sign has the energy of Tropical

Sag. You'll often find this sign prominent in mafia lord charts and charts

of those who fight for a cause.

 

Sidereal Pisces is ruled by Jupiter and Neptune: Theatrical, sometimes a

musician (exaltation of Venus, performs before groups) often also fights

for a cause, very two-sided and mutable. Often has a hidden side

(representing the under-sea symbolism?)

 

It seems less important that

>Pisces was originally ruled by Jupiter or mythologically associated

>with Poseidon, which would seem to give Pisces more extroverted

>qualities or a more aggressive and tempestuous nature.

 

Yes, indeed, Elizabeth!! This is why Tropical Aries is really sidereal

Pisces, ruled by the political Jupiter who can work the crowds, and the

raging Poseidon. The Gauquelin keywords for Jupiter often fit sidereal

Pisces to a 'T.'

 

Western sidereal astrologers generally don't say much about the 'energy'

('elements') of the signs, but I think they're missing a lot there. The

Tropical astrologers have it mostly figured out. They just give the wrong

names to their signs!

 

I hope I'm not confusing you!

 

Blessings,

Therese

[Guest guest]

--- Therese Hamilton <eastwest wrote:

> Hi Elizabeth,

>

>> In my opinion the 'elements' (triplicites or

> trigons) are extremely

> important. But western sidereal astrologers don't

> use them. I've concluded

> that in the sidereal zodiac they still work, but the

> signs have different

> meanings than the Tropical signs. So instead of

> 'elements' we talk about

> Trigons: The Aries trigon, Taurus trigon, etc. (The

> trigons aren't really

> 'elements,' but somehow element names were tacked on

> to the signs early on.)

>

 

 

T...

 

I'm confused....

 

You say.....

In my opinion the 'elements' (triplicites or

> trigons) are extremely

> important.

 

then...

 

But western sidereal astrologers don't

> use them.

 

then...

 

>I've concluded

> that in the sidereal zodiac they still work, but the

> signs have different

> meanings than the Tropical signs. So instead of

> 'elements' we talk about

> Trigons:

 

 

I'm confused because as a " western " sidereal

astrologer I use elements and triplicities to develop

a clarity within the diversity of the sidereal

zodiac... But what the hell is a Trigon?

Please don't include " Western " Siderealists as " we

talk about Trigons " because you may be the only one

that I know who would... Please refer to your opinions

in the first person as it confuses individuals who are

learning, into thinking that you speak for all

" Western Siderealists " .

This remark is intended to request consideration

without the intention to inflame or discredit. I hope

you will not consider my words as a personal attack as

I do not wish to offend you.

 

These traits

> belong to the sidereal

> Cancer trigon. The Hellenistic lords of this Trigon

> were Venus and Mars:

> emotional Venus, fiery Mars. Makes sense, doesn't

> it?

 

FYI.... It dosen't make sense!

sorry... but it just does not strike a logical chord

with me...

 

>

> Sidereal Cancer is the political sign (exaltation of

> Jupiter). It's like

> Tropical Leo.

>

> Sidereal Scorpio is ruled by Mars. This sign has the

> energy of Tropical

> Sag. You'll often find this sign prominent in mafia

> lord charts and charts

> of those who fight for a cause.

 

Stuff like that floors me. Scorpio's make good Mafia

Lords.... and those who fight for a cause....

T... Sorry....

 

>

> Sidereal Pisces is ruled by Jupiter and Neptune:

> Theatrical, sometimes a

> musician (exaltation of Venus, performs before

> groups) often also fights

> for a cause,

 

Pisceans also fight for a cause.... Who can we leave

out of this scenario.... Virgo's?

 

very two-sided and mutable. Often has a

> hidden side

> (representing the under-sea symbolism?)

>

 

Pisceans must be related to Gemini's.... being two

sided and mutable... Are Gemini's capable of fighting

for a cause? I imagine they would if they had Mars

rising.

 

 

> Pisces to a 'T.'

>

> Western sidereal astrologers generally don't say

> much about the 'energy'

> ('elements') of the signs, but I think they're

> missing a lot there. The

> Tropical astrologers have it mostly figured out.

> They just give the wrong

> names to their signs!

>

> I hope I'm not confusing you!

>

> Blessings,

> Therese

>

 

Understanding the energy given to us by the various

constellations is essential but is it critical?

 

I find it confusing to explain " signs " because over

time A Gemini has come to appear more like a Taurus.

 

A siderealist has to totally rebuild his/her concept

of Gemini after being fed a healthy diet of Tropical

Gemini and I don't like reling on a Tropical rendition

of Cancer to explain Sidereal Gemini....

It just ain't kosher....

 

As a Sideealist I am " fixated " on the planets and the

angles.... Undersanding the planets is big....

 

I don't think that Siderealists are simplistic but I

do feel we are rather " fixed " in our nature. Hence, Ii

was easy for me to think Sidereal with Uranus conjunct

my Taurean Bull Sun.

 

Therese... I enjoy most of your contributions and when

I disagree please understand that I appreciate your

contributions even when I disagree with them.

 

Glad to see you back....

 

Juan

 

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Very Cool Elizabeth....

>

> My experience has led me to believe that its the individual which

chooses

> the best tools for themselves....

>

> Having said that... I can accept why everyone has their own idea of

what

is

> " sidereal " astrology. We may agree on most things... even 95% of

everything

> associated with astrology but I've never found two or more

astrologers

agree

> on everything......

>

> The thought of " elements " (earth,water,fire,air) helps me relate but

I

can

> utilize more than 4 elements to relate to the constellations or to

the

> signs(tropical)... Expanding ones thoughts on the elements helps us

imagine.

> It helps us to reflect. It helps us to develop a logical frame of

reference

> to develop understanding. It puts our intuition to work. Our

instincts!

> The thought of elements is secondary to me because I am more

interested in

> the math being " logical " .

>

> Sidereal to me is working within " fixed " parameters. It is a

mathmatical

and

> physical(physics) formula which defines our psychology. Tropical is

a

> derivitive of Sidereal and is a language which has merits. It is a

cycle

> centered on seasonality. Sidereal recognizes the backdrop of the

> constellations as a fixed parameter. Sidereal utilizes for

definition

the

> physical apparatus of the constellations and not a hypothetical 12

sign

> venue which corresponds to a cyclical starting and end point(Spring

> equinox). Sidereal utilizes our(earth's) physical position in

relationship

> to numerous stars such as Antares, Aldebaran, Regulus but primaily

to

> Spica(29d Virgo) to define its " zodiac " (cycle).

>

> There is much for you to experience.... Heliocentric versus

Geocentric...

> Both valid... Both offer a different perspective.

> Sidereal Versus Tropical and Precessed Tropical(Both)....

> Which speaks the loudest to you? the signs or the planets? I am

quite

happy

> understanding the " nature " of each planet and how it provides a

" weighted "

> element to the molecular structure we call the Solar System.

> Have you read... " Taking the Kid Gloves off of Astrology " ?

>

> In answer to your two questions.... I use the elements as explained

above...

> I consider the planets before I consider the

constellations(signs).....

as

> for Tropical Astrology... You would have to ask one of them why

they

think

> their technique works.... I don't find their answers to sustain

logic.

>

> Later...

>

> Juan

>

> PS: " herr jivio " I don't think so...........

 

 

 

, " zqh_elisabeth "

<zqh_elisabeth> wrote:

> I have so many questions that I want to ask; I am a novice when it

> comes to astrology in general, and quite ignorant when it comes to

> sidereal. I hope I won't be boring everyone here with all my

> beginner's questions. I'm not sure where to start asking, so I'll

> just start with two questions from off the top of my head.

>

> 1. The four elements (water, fire, earth and air) seem to be very

> important to Tropical astrologers. In my experience, they seem to

> consider the elements to be an even more important indicator of the

> characteristics of a sign than the traditional myths and planets

> are. I've actually read in several tropical astrology books that

the

> four elements are the *key* to the signs. Example: Pisces is first

> and foremost a WATER sign, and Water is supposed to be emotional,

> passive, introspective and intuitive; and therefore the sign Pisces

> is supposed to have these qualities. It seems less important that

> Pisces was originally ruled by Jupiter or mythologically associated

> with Poseidon, which would seem to give Pisces more extroverted

> qualities or a more aggressive and tempestuous nature. My question

> is, how important are the four elements to sidereal astrology? Do

> siderealists even use the elements at all?

>

> 2. A tropical astrologer told me that sidereal astrology is the

> astrology of *space* whereas tropical is the astrology of *time*.

As

> I understand, the latter is the astrology of *time* because it is

> based on the earth's relation to the sun, which results in the

> seasons. If so, then logically shouldn't the " tropical zodiac " work

> only for the Sun alone? The other planets do not follow the

> same " time " as the sun. So how can tropical astrologers speak of

Moon

> signs, Venus signs, etc? Am I missing something here? I know I

> could be asking this question on a tropical astrology list, but I

> don't want to make them think that I'm there to oppose them and

start

> a flame war.

>

> Thanks for your time.

>

> elisabeth