Proving astrology- Why it should be valid

October 16, 2004

In a message dated 10/16/2004 11:19:24 AM Central Daylight Time,

alfonsoosorio writes:

My only interest is to show to some of you, that the way astrology

is being practiced, will never let you find if there is some truth

behind it.

I loved Alfonso's most recent post. It addresses things that have long

bothered me about the way things have had to become since the loss of more or

less

observational astrology. I have since the start of my sidereal days been of

the firm opinion that the simplest is the sanest. Astrologers have had to

over-complicate the study in order to validate themselves. I believe that all

people are more alike than they are different, and that even an average albeit

well-taught siderealist can unearth the essential truth about the nature of the

individual and his fate. I only wish i had always had the time and resources to

devote to the study. I've never used the quincunx, semisextile etc; i feel

that these are the " ifs " " buts " and " oh, it must be this " that astrologers must

find--in want of the simple, straightforward approach and the clarity that

the simpler formats bring. /// Thanks /// Chris in Austin /// PS but of course i

could be wrong . . . again.

October 16, 2004

In a message dated 10/16/2004 12:33:58 PM Central Daylight Time,

cynthianovak writes:

Ketu

What's a Ketu? // chris in austin

October 16, 2004

Dear Therese:

I would like to put my 5 grams of salt in this interesting debate

about the validity of research in astrology.

During the time I dedicated to the study of astrology, I was always

concerned and interested in knowing if there were real connections

between the planetary positions and the events in our lives, or if I

was delluding myself, something that really bothers me and I always

try to avoid it.

The first thing I discovered in astrology was that it is a

mathematical discipline, and it was this special characteristic that

attracted me to it.

I am already aware , dear Therese, that you and most of the modern

astrologers, abhor mathematics and any knowledge that is based on it

or it is considered as scientific, but anyway you all have to accept

that astrology is based on astronomy, which is a scientific

discipline .

The position of the planets in the sky, their movement and

speed,their path,the azimuth, nadir, the latitude and altitude, etc,

etc,, are all mathematical concepts.

And when you draw a chart, you are doing a graphical or geometric

representation of the mathematical and real positions of the planets.

And what is the ascendant?, the crucial point of the astrological

theory, but just a mathematical point that is the result of the

intersection of some lines. In plain terms, the point were 2 curves

or lines intersect or join.

So dear Therese, you better reconcile yourself with the mathematics

and better try to understand and love them, because thanks to it you

can know if your child has fever as indicated by a thermometer; and

when you buy a share at a certain price, you are indeed hoping its

price will increase in the future, another mathematical concept.

Do not wonder then why all the astrologers were simultaneously

mathematicians, and very good ones. Probably nobody knows that

Calvano,an italian middle-age astrologer, could be considered the

father of that very important concept and branch of knowledge, known

as probabilities.

But the point I am trying to make here, is that since astrology is

based on mathematics it SHOULD offer ways to prove its VALIDATION.

The reason given frequently by those opposed to this possibility,

specially when the tests have not given any favorable results in pro

of astrology, is that astrology is a symbolic discipline and that

symbols can not be verified objectively.

By this way , astrologers are saying to the world: you can´t never

prove astrology does not work and since I have found that it does,

leave me alone doing my astrology!

They never want to rationalize their attitude but indeed their

intimal and inner thoughts are: " This is what I had done for years,

it is my way of leaving, I have invested a lot of time in this, why

should I discard it when you tell me that it doesn´t work? "

And they quote as an example or " proof " of their convictions, that

they have a son with cancer ascendant and that he is " so lovely and

maternal " and start reciting all the psychological characteristics

given by the text books to the cancer born.

But they never wonder nor think: why these similar character

delineations are present simultaneously in all the other persons,

independently of their ascendants and solar signs? Why I can´t

explain that under a saturn-mars aspect some people die and others

win the lottery?

And dear Therese, this is the crutial and critical problem that

pervades astrology: that it works mainly and exclusively in the mind

of the astrologer !

In my opinion, if the symbolism attibuted to venus were exact and

the result of years of observation as indicated by the tradition,

then you should find that persons who have venus on their ascendants

should share some similar physical and psychological characteristics!

If the tenth house is the house of career, then the presence of

venus alone in it should be a clear way to find out the professional

inclination of the native and acording to the basics of astrology,

this person should pursue a career where venusine qualities are

required. Then why does a friend of mine, who has venus in the tenth

is an engineer? But not only him, millions of persons have venus in

the 10th house of career and most of them have chosen professions not

associated at all with the characteristics attributed to Venus.

And for those who have studied hindu astrology, which is far more

complete and profound than tropical and western, because it deals

with more variables and for example they take in account also the

houses the planets rule, this person has libra ascendant also. So he

is a librean in all senses but anyway he does not even has shown any

interest in music, architecture, painting nor any other venusine

profession.

Recently I was in the process of selling an appartment and I draw

the charts when the clients arrived to see how astrology works. I had

more than 70 potential clients and charts. Do some of you accept the

challenge to try to figure out which one was the buyer of my

appartment?

To show you how the mind of the astrologer works let me use the

examples given by two of the members of this list, which I reproduce

below.

None of the specific predictions for Bush has been correct so far.

But they never worried to find out why their predictions fail.

Cynthia Novak did not went so far of anticipating the president´s

death,but according to her own words, she vislumbrated the possible

death of his father,which fortunately neither happened.

But astrology should be vindicated and it happened that Reagan died

on those days, so she was able to say that a " paternal figure " to

Bush did dye on those days.

It is very ironic I have on my hands an article written by Ron

Reagan, where he takes a hard look to Bush´s government and clearly

says that his father´s party is a far cry from Bush´s , with its

obeisance to the religious right. So even not the Reagans consider

Bush as an heir of their father`s ideology!.

Most of the astrologers are relieved when they find an alleged

connection between and event and a chart.

But it is very difficult to explain to you, that there are ALWAYS

PRESENT planetary aspects for any event, and consequently you will

ALWAYS be able to find a connection , although it will be , most of

the times, completely spurious.

In order to deal properly and adequately with the concept of

research, we should talk first and introduce the terms and concepts

of coincidences, chance,probability and statistics, which are

abstract and difficult to explain in a single email, like this.

But anyway, I will try to give a graphical explanation of why

apparently the astrologer always finds some connection between an

event and a chart.

If you work with just 10 planets and you accept sextiles,

oppositions, squares , quincuxes, semi-squares as valid aspects, and

you accept an orb of just 2 degrees ,which works in both sides of the

planet, you are condemned to find always that any aspect will be

present for any event and consequently by this way you will feel

vindicated but indeed you may be delluding yourselve.

The position of just 10 planets and an orb of just 2 degrees means

you are working with 40 degrees of the circle , a high percentage of

it. And if you work with 5 degrees of orb, as most do, then the

portion of the wheel increases to 100 degrees.

And when you introduce more charts, like the navamsa and the ingress

and the solar charts, you are doubling and triplicating the

possibilities!!.

This is why Dark Star will always " find connections " for earthquakes,

because either in the chart of the earthquake, or in the capricorn

ingress or in the libra ingress or in the new moon chart, etc,etc, in

some of them, Pluto or Uranus will be in an angle for some of those

charts.

And if you consider that 10 planets are not enough to find

connections, and work with asteroids as Anny does, she does not

understand that she is condemned to find always any type of

connection.

Because dear Anny, you forget that a circunference, the zodiac

circle, has just 360 degrees and some of you are introducing even

3000 asteroids in it!!.

In plain words, you already inundated the ecliptic with points with

different meanings, and consequently will always have a chance to

explain any event, specially in hindsigt, when it has happened, when

it is very easy for an astrologer " to interpret " what it happened.

But even in hindsight, when things are easier, the astrologers do

not even study carefully the charts.

Recently some one said here, that a simple contact of Ketu with a

planet was an indication that a candidate would win an election.

Well, let me tell him that there is a great chance ketu aspects any

planet, so it can never be considered an acceptable or valid

indicator of winning a contest.

Besides,and what is more important, the astrologer must use the

ADEQUATE and PERTINENT symbolism for anticipating an event.

Ketu, the south node in hindu astrology, in astrological tradition

has been associated with renouncing, with relinquishing, with

abandoning something for spiritual purposes,in few words, with the

spiritual world ; contrary to Rahu, the north node, which is indeed

the one associated with mundane success!!

The more general you use the concepts you are wide opening the doors

for finding connections.

It operates like a filter, if your holes are too big, even a whale

can pass through them.

Anny says that any astrologer involved in research, should " have an

scorpio influence " . Well, specifically what does this means?

That she-he must have an scorpio ascendant? Or is it acceptable that

the moon or the sun fall in scorpio, or just the presence of a single

planet in the sign of scorpio? Or maybe planets in the 8th house?

By this way, a very general remark, you are allowing to find that

any researcher will meet any of those conditions. And how does she

explain the millions of persons who have planets in scorpio but do

not even believe in astrology???

Contrary to what she says, it is more probably a librean ascendant,

like myself, dedicates its time to research. Rao is a librean also

and . And I could give many more examples.

But I would never run to say that only libreans are good for

research. I would have to find more specific contacts and exclusively

of us, before daring to reach a conclusion of that sort.

Dear Therese, I addressed this email directly to you, because I know

you are interested in research and more important, because you have

always shown a critical and objective approach to astrology.

It is not my purpose to engage in futile polemics.

My only interest is to show to some of you, that the way astrology

is being practiced, will never let you find if there is some truth

behind it.

Maybe there are some of you who are interested in searching the

truth.

Truth should always replace beliefs.

This is what it leads me in my life.

Sincerely yours,

Alfonso Osorio

, " cynthianovak "

<cynthianovak@s...> wrote:

> Dear Anny

> the same.

>

> Many good astrologers predicted that our president would die in

office last

> summer. Many more, myself included, read the chart and thought he

would

> lose his father. Instead, former president Reagan died. He was a

father

> figure to the current president. The U.S. mourned the death of a

president,

> but it was not GWB.

> Anny van Berckel [avbdk@x...]

> S

>

> Hi Cynthia!

An astrologer should have a pronounced Scorpio influence in the birth

> chart to enjoy scientifical research.

> It needs skill, if the test is considered as a major event. Yes

indeed,

> a suicide.

>

> Anny

>

------

> http://www.astrology-and-science.com/pdf/phillintv-vsrhs.pdf

>

> The Phillipson interview linked to above provides an excellent

overview.

>

> Andrew

>

> " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " -

----

>

> Post message:

> Subscribe: -

> Un: -

> List owner: -owner

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /

>

October 16, 2004

Thanks Chris for your kind words. They are more significant if I

consider that you are a veteran and experienced sidereal astrologer .

(I am not meaning old).

Please let me tell you that on this ocasion you are not wrong!!!

Very Cordially, Alfonso

, cpwing44@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 10/16/2004 11:19:24 AM Central Daylight Time,

> alfonsoosorio writes:

> My only interest is to show to some of you, that the way astrology

> is being practiced, will never let you find if there is some truth

> behind it.

> I loved Alfonso's most recent post. It addresses things that have

long

> bothered me about the way things have had to become since the loss

of more or less

> observational astrology. I have since the start of my sidereal

days been of

> the firm opinion that the simplest is the sanest. Astrologers have

had to

> over-complicate the study in order to validate themselves. I

believe that all

> people are more alike than they are different, and that even an

average albeit

> well-taught siderealist can unearth the essential truth about the

nature of the

> individual and his fate. I only wish i had always had the time and

resources to

> devote to the study. I've never used the quincunx, semisextile

etc; i feel

> that these are the " ifs " " buts " and " oh, it must be this " that

astrologers must

> find--in want of the simple, straightforward approach and the

clarity that

> the simpler formats bring. /// Thanks /// Chris in Austin /// PS

but of course i

> could be wrong . . . again.

>

October 16, 2004

Dear Chris

I will agree with you about most of the minor aspects, but that ol' quincunx

is a sharp indicator. I've gone from western to Vedic and now swim between

the two. Considered a heretic by tropical astrologers and Hindu astrologers

alike.

I am a nuts and bolts astrologer who keeps the whole thing simple and

therefore most accessible. I get good results, but will never give up the

outer planets. I would never attack another astrologer because he or she

did not do it to my liking. I honestly don't understand why astrologers do

this. Many Vedic astrologers will not even look at them because they are

not in the Vedas. If asteroids speak to you, by all means use them. They

don't speak to me, Vedic does....but withthe outer planets.

I will be doing a 90 minute presentation on the Outer Planets at the ACVA

conference. Change does happen, I just wish folks were a little more

tolerant.

BTW, I've stoof up to a test that most astrologers would run from. The

Dallas NBC affiliate did an " Investigative report. " I did a reading, was

filmed and edited it aired on the 10 oclock news. I had no control of the

angle. The report was testing to see if I was accurate. You have to be

pretty confidant to do that. The news reporter's task was to see if I was

accurate. Here, in the midst of the Bible belt, the answer was Yes, I was

accurate.

I don't say this to brag, but I am really frustrated when astrologers attack

fellow astrologers. It's rather like saying: " You don't do it MY way so

your way must be wrong. " Don't we get enough of this from the outside

world?

Do the research, I'll read it and give you the benefit of the doubt. In the

mean time, I will wish you well and an open heart. I believe there is truth

in the Vedic astrology teachings that it truly helps to have a strong Venus

to be a good astrologer. It certainly helps to have a heart when dealing

with people.

sorry to run on so, this touched a sensitive point.

cynthia

cpwing44 [cpwing44]

Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:56 AM

Re: Proving astrology- Why it should be

valid

In a message dated 10/16/2004 11:19:24 AM Central Daylight Time,

alfonsoosorio writes:

My only interest is to show to some of you, that the way astrology

is being practiced, will never let you find if there is some truth

behind it.

I loved Alfonso's most recent post. It addresses things that have long

bothered me about the way things have had to become since the loss of more

or less

observational astrology. I have since the start of my sidereal days been

of

the firm opinion that the simplest is the sanest. Astrologers have had to

over-complicate the study in order to validate themselves. I believe that

all

people are more alike than they are different, and that even an average

albeit

well-taught siderealist can unearth the essential truth about the nature

of the

individual and his fate. I only wish i had always had the time and

resources to

devote to the study. I've never used the quincunx, semisextile etc; i

feel

that these are the " ifs " " buts " and " oh, it must be this " that astrologers

must

find--in want of the simple, straightforward approach and the clarity that

the simpler formats bring. /// Thanks /// Chris in Austin /// PS but of

course i

could be wrong . . . again.

October 16, 2004

Hmmm

There is a great deal of polemical criticism, Please, what do you have to

offer that is tangible and useful? I would love to hear it.

What would you consider as " proof? "

I find after doing literally 1000s of charts, that the birth chart of an

individual is rich and varied. To force it into a list of matematical

values and measures is to remove the vary richness and subtlety from

astrology.

Yes, there are engineers with Venus in the 10th, there may even be some with

Venus on the MC...more important the in the house in my findings...but those

engineers have a powerful sense of the aesthetics of what they produce.

Kery words are helpful, but not if thedy are limited to a career, but rather

to a quality example: aesthetic.

It is easy to tear astrology and fellow astrologers to pieces. Some

astrologers feel empowered by that. Some will miss the power of Ketu to

reflect a planet near it. Actor Tom Hanks has Ketu with Venus in own

constellation in the 10th. Ketu reflects the Venus. He is known to be a

kind man with great ability and little arrogance. Perhaps astrology needs

to broaden its scope not narrow it. Perhaps it is the nature of the

astrologer. If he is a generous spirit he or she will see more. If he is

critical he will see less.

If he wants to prove something statistically, using mathematics, that

astrologer must be willing to gather data without looking at the charts

until all of the surveys are complete. He must survey 1000 people, ask

carefully designed questions, get the birth bata without ever telling the

subject why he is answering the question. I believe astrology can rise to

this task, but I don't know many astrologers who are willing to gather the

data without looking at the charts.

smiles

cynthia

alfonsoosorio [alfonsoosorio]

Saturday, October 16, 2004 11:19 AM