RE: More books- Astrological Bibliography- Relativity of astrology

September 19, 2004

Dear Alfonso

Please give your prediction for the US presidential race and how you got it.

That would be most helpful to those of us who are so ignorant. Please,

rather than asserting your superiority, show us a sample.

BTw if you Have Bepin Bhari's myth and symbolism book alone for sale, I

would buy that from you.

thank you

cynthia

alfonso osorio [alfonsoosorio]

Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:09 AM

More books- Astrological Bibliography-

Relativity of astrology

Before USA existed as a country, astrology was already in vogue and in use

in Europe.

" Magic " had already rose in early medieval europe in the form of a set of

beliefs and practices and it had become a major area of inquiry.

In the same way that you can´t study World History by reading and analyzing

the events of the world just from the Second World War on, it is important

to an astrologer to study and to know the origins of astrology and how it

evolved.

When you do this, you will first learn that astrology emerged as an art of

prophecy, amongst many other practices or systems as the oracles, geomancy,

carthomancy,the world of dreams, etc.

People and specially the kings, were interested in knowing in advance if

they could carry on certain activities and the results of their actions, so

they hired all those who can assure they can predict the future.

In some way this determined also the commercialization of the magic,

because the prophetic services needed to be paid and consequently astrology

emerged as a kind of business, as it is shown in our days.

The purpose of astrology has been changed deliberately by those who show a

total incompetence to advance an event because of the difficulty of doing

it.

Even in a competition of just 2 candidates, as in USA next elections, when

they had already been chosen amongst many other pre-candidates,( a more

difficult task for predicting) most of the astrologers will fail in

advancing the winner .

And what is more sadly, those who " will anticipate correctly(?) " the

winner do not take in account that thery had chances of 50% of selecting

the winner , statistically considered as a very high percentage or index of

possibility.

In fact, even without the use of astrology, you have a great chance of

anticipating a winner in a contest of just 2 persons or two teams.

It must not be strange then, that most of the astrologers do not even have

the opportunity to understand that it is very probable , the techniques they

use were NOT VALID AT ALL and that their " right selection " was simply a

matter of chance.

And it is more sad to see how some modern astrologers, due to the lack of

professional competence, diverted and changed the real purpose of astrology,

which was to predict, into a way to abscribe certain psychological

characteristics , so vague and general , that it is almost impossible the

naive clients do not accept as part of their nature.

Those silly concepts that the cancer born, either tropical or sidereal, are

maternal, dependable , tender., insecure, movable, emotional, are just

psycho-babble and not a very decent and honest way to earn a living.

Independent of the signs, we all have a little bit of those characteristics.

Those who dwelve in predictions at least make an intellectual exercise in

trying to advance an event and consequently deserve to be paid in some way.

I remembered when I calculated primary directions manually, in the eighties,

because I did not have a software who did it for me.

It took me hours to calculate the meeting of two planets in the celestial

sphere, and what is more ironic, I did it for hobby because I used astrology

just for fun and for me and my friends and family.

Going back to the astrological bibliography, I consider a must read books

the following ones:

" Les Rois et les Astrologues " by Anne Soprnai. It shows how the

astrologers became the advisers and counsellors of the kings.

" Prophecy and Power " by Patrick Curry. Explores the role of

astrology in England between 1600 and 1800.

" Courting Disaster " by Hilary Carey. Explores also the role of

astrology in late medieval England. It shows how astrology became a risky

occupation because the astrologer could fall in disgrace if his predictions

did not come true.

" History , Prophecy and the Stars " by Laura Smoller. Is the best

introduction to the astrology of the later Middle Ages. With this book I

learnt the influence astrology had on Cristopher Columbus .

" An astrological diary of the 17th century " by Michael Hunter. You will

be surprised to learn how an almost unkown merchant used astrology for all

the events of his life including when to invest, by erecting the chart for

the moment he did so and comparing it with his chart. It is full of charts.

It cost me $100 and of course it is one of the few I will keep but I do

recommend it.

" Religion and the Decline of magic " by Keith Thomas, is another

important book that gives excellent accounts of astrological practice during

the middle ages, but at a more general level.

Karl Kraft. Ot the modern european astrologers Karl Kraft was a pioneer. He

made the first attempts to introduce statistics , unfortunately he did not

mastered it and consequently his researches lack validity. He was allegedly

hired by Hitler but later was sent to a death camp. I have his biography for

sale, in case you can read in french. A very interesting life and biography.

FRENCH ASTROLOGY

It mesmerizes me to see how the contribution of France to the eclectic

domain of astrology is vastly ignored by the majority of its practicioners.

In case you want to understand all the variables you have to take in

acount,, when reading a chart, you must begin studying " Morin De

Villefrance " . He was a royal astrologer for king Louis XXIII and specially

for the famous Cardinal Richelieu.

Morin was a mathematician and he stablished different methods for the

calculation of primary directions. Although he lacked ephemeris he was an

expert in calculating the position of a planet and could do it in just some

minutes.

Thanks to his books primary directions were the first technique I learnt and

used to advance a prediction.

Amongst the modern european astrologues I would mention in first place

Gauquelin. If you want to find out the validity of astrology it is important

to read his researches. I have all his books.

Henri Gouchon also wrote two books on primary directions, following the

school of Morin.

Andre Barbault has recopiled many birth times and has made some

contributions to mundane astrology. I would mention specially his book LES

ASTRES ROYAUX, which I have for sale. In it appears the charts of all the

kings . Ideal for making research.

American Astrologers

I recommend very few. The most important one for me has been Jim Lewis with

his concepts of Cartography and relocational astrology.

I never indulged nor believed in esoteric astrology and consequently Rudhyar

books and concepts are mere blah-blah.

Neither I liked Marc Jones and its sabyan symbols. They look more like the

effects of a night of high dosis of hashis or marijuana.

I have bought, read and discarded all the modern and " psychological " books

written by Liz Greene, Donna Cunningham, Shapiro, etc,etc.

They say things that are very general and completely false, when applied to

a chart.

Psychology is very valid and a serious attempt to decipher and understand

human behaviour but should not be mixed with astrology. It is a completely

different discipline.

You will feel very confused when you first find that instead of being a

dominative and secretive scorpio, like a tropical astrologer has already

convinced you of being, you can be transformed inmediately into a placid and

diplomatic librean, if you visit a sidereal astrologer.

This shows the relativity of astrology. It really all depends on the lens of

the astrologer you visit. They will see you and your world according the

color of their lens.

You can be simultaneously fiery and placid,Libra and scorpio. Or shy as a

cancer and royal as a leo. It depends on the zodiac he uses.

You can have a lot of money or an agressive personality, it again depends on

the domification the astrologer uses.

Because your planets can be sent from the ascendant to the second house of

money(??) or even to the third house, increasing the number of siblings you

have!!!

There was one psycho-astrologer who when anlyzing the chart of Joseph

Mengele he said the explanation of his cruelty was that he did not have a

single planet in a water sign!!.

Of course he worked on the tropical zodiac. If you analyze Mengele´s chart

on the sidereal zodiac you will have to invent another reason.

But that pseudo- astrologer did ever have the thought( and brain to think)

that there are lots of persons who have been born under no water signs and

have not become " Doctors of Death " as Mengele?

Why do some astrologers in this list do not take in account that the

" explanation " they give for their pseudo-analysis is simultaneously not

valid on a lot of persons who are sharing the same positions like venus in

the 10th house, who some accomodate for certain professions and careers?

These are the things that mesmerizes me and have influenced my decision of

quitting astrology.

So you now have the oportunity to enter into this world and master astrology

with just a bit of the cost I paid to learnt it.

You better take this opportunity and do not let it pass.

Alfonso Osorio

New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

September 19, 2004

Dear Cynthya:

Hello . Is a pitty you did not read my email with attention.

In first place I wrote I already quitted astrology. I have no

interest at all in proving if the sidereal zodiac or my techniques

are better and more exact than yours.

In my personal experience, if astrology works somehow, it can be

shown only with the sidereal zodiac. But this has to be submitted to

a test and under controls and they have to produce significative

results, beyond chance.

In second place you forgot to read that in an election where there

are just two candidates the chances of winning are too high and

have nothing to do with astrology. In other words you can anticipate

a winner correctly without the need of using astrological techniques.

In third place, I criticize the way astrology is practiced but I did

not mentioned names.

I am sorry if you feel alluded.

The book I have by Bepin Behari is better than the one you mentioned

because the last one resumes correctly hindu astrology.

Best regards to you. Alfonso Osorio

, " cynthianovak "

<cynthianovak@s...> wrote:

> Dear Alfonso

> Please give your prediction for the US presidential race and how

you got it.

> That would be most helpful to those of us who are so ignorant.

Please,

> rather than asserting your superiority, show us a sample.

>

> BTw if you Have Bepin Bhari's myth and symbolism book alone for

sale, I

> would buy that from you.

>

> thank you

> cynthia

>

> alfonso osorio [alfonsoosorio]

> Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:09 AM

>

> More books- Astrological

Bibliography-

> Relativity of astrology

>

> Before USA existed as a country, astrology was already in vogue

and in use

> in Europe.

>

> " Magic " had already rose in early medieval europe in the form of a

set of

> beliefs and practices and it had become a major area of inquiry.

>

> In the same way that you can´t study World History by reading and

analyzing

> the events of the world just from the Second World War on, it is

important

> to an astrologer to study and to know the origins of astrology

and how it

> evolved.

>

> When you do this, you will first learn that astrology emerged as

an art of

> prophecy, amongst many other practices or systems as the oracles,

geomancy,

> carthomancy,the world of dreams, etc.

>

> People and specially the kings, were interested in knowing in

advance if

> they could carry on certain activities and the results of their

actions, so

> they hired all those who can assure they can predict the future.

>

> In some way this determined also the commercialization of the

magic,

> because the prophetic services needed to be paid and consequently

astrology

> emerged as a kind of business, as it is shown in our days.

>

> The purpose of astrology has been changed deliberately by those

who show a

> total incompetence to advance an event because of the difficulty

of doing

> it.

>

> Even in a competition of just 2 candidates, as in USA next

elections, when

> they had already been chosen amongst many other pre-candidates,( a

more

> difficult task for predicting) most of the astrologers will fail

in

> advancing the winner .

>

> And what is more sadly, those who " will anticipate correctly(?) "

the

> winner do not take in account that thery had chances of 50% of

selecting

> the winner , statistically considered as a very high percentage or

index of

> possibility.

>

> In fact, even without the use of astrology, you have a great

chance of

> anticipating a winner in a contest of just 2 persons or two teams.

>

> It must not be strange then, that most of the astrologers do not

even have

> the opportunity to understand that it is very probable , the

techniques they

> use were NOT VALID AT ALL and that their " right selection " was

simply a

> matter of chance.

>

> And it is more sad to see how some modern astrologers, due to the

lack of

> professional competence, diverted and changed the real purpose of

astrology,

> which was to predict, into a way to abscribe certain psychological

> characteristics , so vague and general , that it is almost

impossible the

> naive clients do not accept as part of their nature.

>

> Those silly concepts that the cancer born, either tropical or

sidereal, are

> maternal, dependable , tender., insecure, movable, emotional, are

just

> psycho-babble and not a very decent and honest way to earn a

living.

>

> Independent of the signs, we all have a little bit of those

characteristics.

>

> Those who dwelve in predictions at least make an intellectual

exercise in

> trying to advance an event and consequently deserve to be paid in

some way.

>

> I remembered when I calculated primary directions manually, in the

eighties,

> because I did not have a software who did it for me.

>

> It took me hours to calculate the meeting of two planets in the

celestial

> sphere, and what is more ironic, I did it for hobby because I used

astrology

> just for fun and for me and my friends and family.

>

> Going back to the astrological bibliography, I consider a must

read books

> the following ones:

>

> " Les Rois et les Astrologues " by Anne Soprnai. It shows how

the

> astrologers became the advisers and counsellors of the kings.

>

> " Prophecy and Power " by Patrick Curry. Explores the role

of

> astrology in England between 1600 and 1800.

>

> " Courting Disaster " by Hilary Carey. Explores also the

role of

> astrology in late medieval England. It shows how astrology became

a risky

> occupation because the astrologer could fall in disgrace if his

predictions

> did not come true.

>

> " History , Prophecy and the Stars " by Laura Smoller. Is the

best

> introduction to the astrology of the later Middle Ages. With this

book I

> learnt the influence astrology had on Cristopher Columbus .

>

> " An astrological diary of the 17th century " by Michael Hunter.

You will

> be surprised to learn how an almost unkown merchant used astrology

for all

> the events of his life including when to invest, by erecting the

chart for

> the moment he did so and comparing it with his chart. It is full

of charts.

> It cost me $100 and of course it is one of the few I will keep but

I do

> recommend it.

>

> " Religion and the Decline of magic " by Keith Thomas, is another

> important book that gives excellent accounts of astrological

practice during

> the middle ages, but at a more general level.

>

> Karl Kraft. Ot the modern european astrologers Karl Kraft was a

pioneer. He

> made the first attempts to introduce statistics , unfortunately he

did not

> mastered it and consequently his researches lack validity. He was

allegedly

> hired by Hitler but later was sent to a death camp. I have his

biography for

> sale, in case you can read in french. A very interesting life and

biography.

>

> FRENCH ASTROLOGY

>

> It mesmerizes me to see how the contribution of France to the

eclectic

> domain of astrology is vastly ignored by the majority of its

practicioners.

>

> In case you want to understand all the variables you have to take

in

> acount,, when reading a chart, you must begin studying " Morin De

> Villefrance " . He was a royal astrologer for king Louis XXIII and

specially

> for the famous Cardinal Richelieu.

>

> Morin was a mathematician and he stablished different methods for

the

> calculation of primary directions. Although he lacked ephemeris he

was an

> expert in calculating the position of a planet and could do it in

just some

> minutes.

>

> Thanks to his books primary directions were the first technique I

learnt and

> used to advance a prediction.

>

> Amongst the modern european astrologues I would mention in first

place

> Gauquelin. If you want to find out the validity of astrology it is

important

> to read his researches. I have all his books.

>

> Henri Gouchon also wrote two books on primary directions,

following the

> school of Morin.

>

> Andre Barbault has recopiled many birth times and has made some

> contributions to mundane astrology. I would mention specially his

book LES

> ASTRES ROYAUX, which I have for sale. In it appears the charts of

all the

> kings . Ideal for making research.

>

> American Astrologers

>

> I recommend very few. The most important one for me has been Jim

Lewis with

> his concepts of Cartography and relocational astrology.

>

> I never indulged nor believed in esoteric astrology and

consequently Rudhyar

> books and concepts are mere blah-blah.

>

> Neither I liked Marc Jones and its sabyan symbols. They look more

like the

> effects of a night of high dosis of hashis or marijuana.

>

> I have bought, read and discarded all the modern

and " psychological " books

> written by Liz Greene, Donna Cunningham, Shapiro, etc,etc.

>

> They say things that are very general and completely false, when

applied to

> a chart.

>

> Psychology is very valid and a serious attempt to decipher and

understand

> human behaviour but should not be mixed with astrology. It is a

completely

> different discipline.

>

> You will feel very confused when you first find that instead of

being a

> dominative and secretive scorpio, like a tropical astrologer has

already

> convinced you of being, you can be transformed inmediately into a

placid and

> diplomatic librean, if you visit a sidereal astrologer.

>

> This shows the relativity of astrology. It really all depends on

the lens of

> the astrologer you visit. They will see you and your world

according the

> color of their lens.

>

> You can be simultaneously fiery and placid,Libra and scorpio. Or

shy as a

> cancer and royal as a leo. It depends on the zodiac he uses.

>

> You can have a lot of money or an agressive personality, it again

depends on

> the domification the astrologer uses.

>

> Because your planets can be sent from the ascendant to the second

house of

> money(??) or even to the third house, increasing the number of

siblings you

> have!!!

>

> There was one psycho-astrologer who when anlyzing the chart of

Joseph

> Mengele he said the explanation of his cruelty was that he did not

have a

> single planet in a water sign!!.

>

> Of course he worked on the tropical zodiac. If you analyze

Mengele´s chart

> on the sidereal zodiac you will have to invent another reason.

>

> But that pseudo- astrologer did ever have the thought( and brain

to think)

> that there are lots of persons who have been born under no water

signs and

> have not become " Doctors of Death " as Mengele?

>

> Why do some astrologers in this list do not take in account that

the

> " explanation " they give for their pseudo-analysis is

simultaneously not

> valid on a lot of persons who are sharing the same positions like

venus in

> the 10th house, who some accomodate for certain professions and

careers?

>

> These are the things that mesmerizes me and have influenced my

decision of

> quitting astrology.

>

> So you now have the oportunity to enter into this world and master

astrology

> with just a bit of the cost I paid to learnt it.

>

> You better take this opportunity and do not let it pass.

>

> Alfonso Osorio

>

> New and Improved Mail - Send 10MB messages!

>

September 19, 2004

, alfonso osorio

<alfonsoosorio> wrote:

> But that pseudo- astrologer did ever have the thought( and brain to

think) that there are lots of persons who have been born under no

water signs and have not become " Doctors of Death " as Mengele?

I think this assumption is predicated on the belief that the horoscope

functions as an exhaustive all-inclusive indicator of both character

and temperament along with life and fate. It is not the person who

must be matched to the horoscope - it is the horoscope which must be

interpreted in the context of an individual human life. Otherwise

astrology simply remains a mechanistic process of entrail divination -

a reductionistic approach which presumes that the complex experiences

of human life can somehow be confined to a statistical batch of

descriptive traits and probable outcomes.

Andrew

September 20, 2004

[cynthianovak] Dear Andrew and all

THis passage is particularly rich today...we just went to see " What the

Bleep to you know? "

If you have not heard of it; it's a fascinating film out in a small but

growing number of theaters.

If anyone is interested, they have a great web site www.whatthebleep.com

smiles

c