Guest guest Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 At 07:58 PM 4/25/04 -0700, Bettina wrote: >Yes, I have Moon trine Mercury trine ( I guess that would be considered a >minor asp. in Vedic) and a wide quincunx from Mars to Moon. I am TERRIBLE >at math. Just awful. I flunked out of 2nd yr. algebra in high school. I'm >much better at word things, writing poetry and such. > >My husband has the opposition and he's a little better but not by much. Hi Bettina and all, I've enjoyed going through these posts on Moon-Mercury! In the old western astrology Mercury was said to have its joy in the first house. In India Mercury has strength (dig bala) in the first. The upshot is that Mercury is strong around the ascendant, but if the Moon is closer to the ascendant, chances are the Moon (a bit foggy on the math) will dominate. My husband has Moon near the ascendant opposed by Mercury in 7th. He can retain only one numeral in his head at once and can only do even the simplest math on a calculator. I have Mercury in 12, on the 12th equal cusp, and well....my approach to astrology is pretty mathmatical. I also have to take care of all the family financial matters, and I can design and built structures such as greenhouses, measure and lay floor tile, etc., all based on correct mathematical alignment. I have the mutual reception: Mercury in Scorpio/Mars in Virgo. Yeah...I'm impatient too. I wouldn't want to live with myself! I tell my husband: " Next time get yourself a nice cuddly Moon-Venus lady to share your life with. " Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 At 10:54 AM 4/26/04 -0700, Christ wrote: >Just to weigh in on this tangent, I have Mercury and Moon exchanging signs >and *exactly* parallel to the minute, and I got an " A " in my university >social statistics course. But then again, my Mercury is close to an angle. >As always, influences need to assessed fully... Chris, what is your ascendant sign and degree, then the sign/degree of Moon and Mercury? Also are Saturn and/or Mars connected to Mercury in any way? Leaving out the parallel (I'm a fence sitter on the value of parallels), a mutual reception isn't the same as a major aspect between Moon and Mercury. I think a close trine qualifies as major because this can be a conjunction in the navamsa chart (referring to Bettina's post). Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Dear Therese, I am Virgo rising, with Moon in 1st fairly close opposing (about 6*) Debilitated Mercury in 7th - I pretty much agree with all your comments. I get laughed at for saying things in a very long and elaborated way, even for simple matters - I also hate maths, and although my maths is far from poor I do struggle with simple mental arithematic - and have difficulty remembering say a telephone number (or a few items told for shopping) if given to me verbally. i.e. I usually ask for it to be repeated. I have been diagnosed Attention Deficit Disorder (my mind does wander instead of being able to pay attention for any length of time), and I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I would definitely consider myself as Psychic. My long-term memory however is excellent, compared to short-term. Sateesh. ======== - " Therese Hamilton " <eastwest Monday, April 26, 2004 11:46 PM RE: Moon-Mercury --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.669 / Virus Database: 431 - Release 26/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 I also find it difficult to multi-task - and unlike most office staff, I cannot concentrate on a phone-call while a person next to me is talking to me too. Same with driving - I cannot chat and drive. I do have Exalted Mars, seeing as Mars has crept into this thread too. My Navamsa (D9) has a Mars-Moon exchange (Cancer/Aries). Sateesh. ======== - Sateesh Batas Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:32 AM Re: RE: Moon-Mercury Dear Therese, I am Virgo rising, with Moon in 1st fairly close opposing (about 6*) Debilitated Mercury in 7th - I pretty much agree with all your comments. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.669 / Virus Database: 431 - Release 26/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Sateesh, everything you wrote in your two posts applies to my husband! (Except for the obsessive-compulsive disorder and the exalted Mars....) He is not diagnosed, but we're sure he has ADD as well. He's learned to cope fairly well. He has the Moon in its fall on the ascendant opposed by Mercury in Taurus. He is extremely stubborn and I get the impression that he only learns what he wants to learn, and that's usually not anything I have to say! I'm sorry if there was a delay in your post appearing on the list. I've changed the setting so your posts will go on the list immediately--as soon as allows. Therese At 05:32 AM 4/27/04 +0100, Sateesh wrote: >Dear Therese, > >I am Virgo rising, with Moon in 1st fairly close opposing (about 6*) Debilitated Mercury in 7th - I pretty much agree with all your comments. > >I get laughed at for saying things in a very long and elaborated way, even for simple matters - I also hate maths, and although my maths is far from poor I do struggle with simple mental arithematic - and have difficulty remembering say a telephone number (or a few items told for shopping) if given to me verbally. i.e. I usually ask for it to be repeated. > >I have been diagnosed Attention Deficit Disorder (my mind does wander instead of being able to pay attention for any length of time), and I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. > >I would definitely consider myself as Psychic. > >My long-term memory however is excellent, compared to short-term. >I also find it difficult to multi-task - and unlike most office staff, I cannot concentrate on a phone-call while a person next to me is talking to me too. >Same with driving - I cannot chat and drive. >I do have Exalted Mars, seeing as Mars has crept into this thread too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi, Therese. Thanks for the feedback - my Moon is almost full too (not sure if that makes any difference WRT the issue at hand). Since it is his 3rd Lord and 5th Lords (Moon and Merc) opposing I wonder if he is highly emotive/impulsive. Ah - I was wondering where the posts had ended up - thanks :-) . Sateesh. ========= - " Therese Hamilton " <eastwest Wednesday, April 28, 2004 5:02 AM Re: Moon-Mercury : Sateesh, everything you wrote in your two posts applies to my husband! : (Except for the obsessive-compulsive disorder and the exalted Mars....) He : is not diagnosed, but we're sure he has ADD as well. He's learned to cope : fairly well. He has the Moon in its fall on the ascendant opposed by : Mercury in Taurus. He is extremely stubborn and I get the impression that : he only learns what he wants to learn, and that's usually not anything I : have to say! : : I'm sorry if there was a delay in your post appearing on the list. I've : changed the setting so your posts will go on the list immediately--as soon : as allows. : : Therese --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.669 / Virus Database: 431 - Release 27/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Sorry - you said his Taurus is on the DESCENDENT, not the Ascendant - ignore my Lordship comments :-) . Sat. - " Sateesh Batas " <makara Wednesday, April 28, 2004 5:07 AM Re: Re: Moon-Mercury : Hi, Therese. : : Thanks for the feedback - my Moon is almost full too (not sure if that makes any difference WRT the issue at hand). : : Since it is his 3rd Lord and 5th Lords (Moon and Merc) opposing I wonder if he is highly emotive/impulsive. : : Ah - I was wondering where the posts had ended up - thanks :-) . : : Sateesh. : : ========= : : - : " Therese Hamilton " <eastwest : : Wednesday, April 28, 2004 5:02 AM : Re: Moon-Mercury : : : : Sateesh, everything you wrote in your two posts applies to my husband! : : (Except for the obsessive-compulsive disorder and the exalted Mars....) He : : is not diagnosed, but we're sure he has ADD as well. He's learned to cope : : fairly well. He has the Moon in its fall on the ascendant opposed by : : Mercury in Taurus. He is extremely stubborn and I get the impression that : : he only learns what he wants to learn, and that's usually not anything I : : have to say! : : : : I'm sorry if there was a delay in your post appearing on the list. I've : : changed the setting so your posts will go on the list immediately--as soon : : as allows. : --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.669 / Virus Database: 431 - Release 27/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 At 05:07 AM 4/28/04 +0100, Sateesh wrote: >> >Thanks for the feedback - my Moon is almost full too (not sure if that makes any difference WRT the issue at hand). Sateesh, I think an almost full Moon makes the Moon influence stronger. Then Mercury is weaker since it has no dig bala (positional strength according to Jyotish and traditional western astrology) in the 7th and is overshadowed by the Moon. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi, Therese. I would certainly agree with this - and yes, I do have a very domineering mother. Sateesh. ======== - " Therese Hamilton " <eastwest Wednesday, April 28, 2004 5:29 AM Re: Moon-Mercury : At 05:07 AM 4/28/04 +0100, Sateesh wrote: : >> : >Thanks for the feedback - my Moon is almost full too (not sure if that : makes any difference WRT the issue at hand). : Sateesh, : : I think an almost full Moon makes the Moon influence stronger. Then Mercury : is weaker since it has no dig bala (positional strength according to : Jyotish and traditional western astrology) in the 7th and is overshadowed : by the Moon. : : Therese --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.669 / Virus Database: 431 - Release 27/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi Sateesh, There still is no test which will diagnose ADD and ADHD. Truly a mystery situation. But diet has proved useful. This concept has been largely invented by drug companies for children to enforce the bottom line...profits. Parents have been threatened with jail or losing their children if they don't embrace Ritalin. Dark*Star Sateesh Batas wrote: > I have been diagnosed Attention Deficit Disorder (my mind does wander instead of being able to pay attention for any length of time), Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 I've written before saying that I have a Mercury/Moon trine and my husband has the opposition. We both have " diagnosed " ourselves with ADD. When we were children it wasn't something that was heard about yet, but we both daydreamed our way through school. He excells at technological things (Mercury and Mars in mutual reception), so he has to have some math but it didn't come to him until he was an adult and really had to learn it for his career. My area is word and language related things. Love to read, write peotry, also enjoy things like Scrabble and cross word puzzles. I've woked in a library. Also, certain kinds of information come to me intuitively. 2 sons have been diagnosed with ADD. One has the trine, the other doesn't have a M/M aspect, and although he usually did horribly in school up to graduating high school, he has excelled in college and is a grad student now. Soooo. I don't think that M/M helps a lot with academic smarts. Moon/Jupiter seems to work better .... at least it gives the people who have it an aura of sophistication and knowledgable-ness. .... Bettina Therese Hamilton [eastwest] Tuesday, April 27, 2004 9:02 PM Re: Moon-Mercury Sateesh, everything you wrote in your two posts applies to my husband! (Except for the obsessive-compulsive disorder and the exalted Mars....) He is not diagnosed, but we're sure he has ADD as well. He's learned to cope fairly well. He has the Moon in its fall on the ascendant opposed by Mercury in Taurus. He is extremely stubborn and I get the impression that he only learns what he wants to learn, and that's usually not anything I have to say! I'm sorry if there was a delay in your post appearing on the list. I've changed the setting so your posts will go on the list immediately--as soon as allows. Therese At 05:32 AM 4/27/04 +0100, Sateesh wrote: >Dear Therese, > >I am Virgo rising, with Moon in 1st fairly close opposing (about 6*) Debilitated Mercury in 7th - I pretty much agree with all your comments. > >I get laughed at for saying things in a very long and elaborated way, even for simple matters - I also hate maths, and although my maths is far from poor I do struggle with simple mental arithematic - and have difficulty remembering say a telephone number (or a few items told for shopping) if given to me verbally. i.e. I usually ask for it to be repeated. > >I have been diagnosed Attention Deficit Disorder (my mind does wander instead of being able to pay attention for any length of time), and I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. > >I would definitely consider myself as Psychic. > >My long-term memory however is excellent, compared to short-term. >I also find it difficult to multi-task - and unlike most office staff, I cannot concentrate on a phone-call while a person next to me is talking to me too. >Same with driving - I cannot chat and drive. >I do have Exalted Mars, seeing as Mars has crept into this thread too. " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: / ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Sateesh ... Full moon is supposed to be really good in vedic astrology. .... Bettina Sateesh Batas [makara] Tuesday, April 27, 2004 9:07 PM Re: Re: Moon-Mercury Hi, Therese. Thanks for the feedback - my Moon is almost full too (not sure if that makes any difference WRT the issue at hand). Since it is his 3rd Lord and 5th Lords (Moon and Merc) opposing I wonder if he is highly emotive/impulsive. Ah - I was wondering where the posts had ended up - thanks :-) . Sateesh. ========= - " Therese Hamilton " <eastwest Wednesday, April 28, 2004 5:02 AM Re: Moon-Mercury : Sateesh, everything you wrote in your two posts applies to my husband! : (Except for the obsessive-compulsive disorder and the exalted Mars....) He : is not diagnosed, but we're sure he has ADD as well. He's learned to cope : fairly well. He has the Moon in its fall on the ascendant opposed by : Mercury in Taurus. He is extremely stubborn and I get the impression that : he only learns what he wants to learn, and that's usually not anything I : have to say! : : I'm sorry if there was a delay in your post appearing on the list. I've : changed the setting so your posts will go on the list immediately--as soon : as allows. : : Therese --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.669 / Virus Database: 431 - Release 27/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 My aforementioned hubby (who has the Moon/Merc op) also has the Sun/Moon op. (full Moon). I think his Moon expresses stronger than his Sun or Merc, even tho Sun and Merc are above the horizon and Sun is exalted. But, I only see him at home, so at work (he's retired now), he may have been more solar and mercurial. .... Bettina Therese Hamilton [eastwest] Tuesday, April 27, 2004 9:30 PM Re: Moon-Mercury At 05:07 AM 4/28/04 +0100, Sateesh wrote: >> >Thanks for the feedback - my Moon is almost full too (not sure if that makes any difference WRT the issue at hand). Sateesh, I think an almost full Moon makes the Moon influence stronger. Then Mercury is weaker since it has no dig bala (positional strength according to Jyotish and traditional western astrology) in the 7th and is overshadowed by the Moon. Therese " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: / ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 .... so did my husband (have a domineering mother, that is). .... Bettina Sateesh Batas [makara] Tuesday, April 27, 2004 10:15 PM Re: Re: Moon-Mercury Hi, Therese. I would certainly agree with this - and yes, I do have a very domineering mother. Sateesh. ======== - " Therese Hamilton " <eastwest Wednesday, April 28, 2004 5:29 AM Re: Moon-Mercury : At 05:07 AM 4/28/04 +0100, Sateesh wrote: : >> : >Thanks for the feedback - my Moon is almost full too (not sure if that : makes any difference WRT the issue at hand). : Sateesh, : : I think an almost full Moon makes the Moon influence stronger. Then Mercury : is weaker since it has no dig bala (positional strength according to : Jyotish and traditional western astrology) in the 7th and is overshadowed : by the Moon. : : Therese --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.669 / Virus Database: 431 - Release 27/04/2004 " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: / ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi, Bettina. I also have Jupiter in 5th (4th/7th Lord) closing his close 9th-aspect on....Moon in 1st. Sateesh. ======== - " Bettina " <chiria Wednesday, April 28, 2004 5:43 PM RE: Re: Moon-Mercury :: Soooo. I don't think that M/M helps a lot with academic smarts. : Moon/Jupiter seems to work better .... at least it gives the people who have : it an aura of sophistication and knowledgable-ness. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.670 / Virus Database: 432 - Release 27/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Hi, Bettina. Many thanks - I think yes, it is one of the few " universal " rules in V.A. :-) . Sateesh. - " Bettina " <chiria Wednesday, April 28, 2004 5:46 PM RE: Re: Moon-Mercury : Sateesh ... : : : Full moon is supposed to be really good in vedic astrology. : : : ... Bettina --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.670 / Virus Database: 432 - Release 27/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 At 10:18 PM 4/27/04 -0700, Dark*Star wrote: > >Ptolemy was such a good recorder that Moon-Mercury is found with >astrologers that at least 3 astrologers here have offered up their charts in >homage...Bettina, Sateesh, Therese. Do you mean that I have a Moon-Mercury contact? If so, no--I have no Moon-Mercury connection in my chart. I may have lost the conversation thread here since I've only been able to read e-mails late in the day. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Therese, You have to have it some way as you talk all the time...Moon + Mercury = talking woman. Probably in minor aspect if you stretch a little, or by collection, i.e., Mercury and Moon while not aspecting each other are both aspected by a common planet in an interesting situation. Dark*Star Therese Hamilton wrote: > At 10:18 PM 4/27/04 -0700, Dark*Star wrote: > > > >Ptolemy was such a good recorder that Moon-Mercury is found with > >astrologers that at least 3 astrologers here have offered up their charts in > >homage...Bettina, Sateesh, Therese. > > Do you mean that I have a Moon-Mercury contact? If so, no--I have no > Moon-Mercury connection in my chart. > > I may have lost the conversation thread here since I've only been able to > read e-mails late in the day. > > Therese > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > / > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 At 07:20 PM 4/28/04 -0700, Dark*Star wrote: > >Therese, > >You have to have it some way as you talk all the time...Moon + Mercury = talking >woman. Dark Star, I don't talk. I write. I maintain silence most of the day. If my husband craves conversation, he has to go out and about seeking friends. I have turned down many invitations to speak at conferences. Here are my Mercury and Moon positions: Mercury: 5 Scorpio; Moon: 10 Libra; Ascendant 4 Sagittarius. My Moon is out to lunch, in terrible shape. It has only something like .5 in shad bala. Though I love people in a universal kind of way, I don't seek friends out to socialize for social purposes. I enjoy communication on the internet much more. No sound! I have a hearing sensitivity so that most sounds, including speech, are disturbing to me. I hear octives that other people don't hear. So I live in as much silence as I can find--have my own section of the house where I an think and write in quiet. Never listen to music anymore. (I used to love music.) When I was a child, I refused to speak or read aloud at school. In those days they let me be. Today they'd be sending me for multiple testing to see what the heck was wrong with that kid. Scorpio is supposed to be a mute sign, and my Mercury is in the 12th in that sign. I have a son who has his Mercury in Pisces (another so-called mute sign) in 12th. He's always been a man of few words, speaking only when necessary. Therese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 typing typing typing ~ talking talking talking :: S A M E S A M E ~ Therese Hamilton wrote: > At 07:20 PM 4/28/04 -0700, Dark*Star wrote: > > > >Therese, > > > >You have to have it some way as you talk all the time...Moon + Mercury = > talking > >woman. > > Dark Star, I don't talk. I write. I maintain silence most of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Therese, See, just like I said...ASC aspects Mercury and Moon, also Moon-Mercury in a wide (5*) semi-sextile. This is where stuff like shad bala just fall apart with Moon looking to be in the 10th and I bet strongly placed/aspected. Come clean now and 'fess up. The only shad I like comes out of the Delaware River in Bucks County in April caught on their spring run and prepared with new potatoes, dandelion greens in a bacon cream sauce. Black coffee and Rhubarb pie for dessert = a culinary mid-heaven. Dark*Star Therese Hamilton wrote: > At 07:20 PM 4/28/04 -0700, Dark*Star wrote: > > > >Therese, > > > >You have to have it some way as you talk all the time...Moon + Mercury = > talking > >woman. > > Dark Star, I don't talk. I write. I maintain silence most of the day. If my > husband craves conversation, he has to go out and about seeking friends. I > have turned down many invitations to speak at conferences. Here are my > Mercury and Moon positions: Mercury: 5 Scorpio; Moon: 10 Libra; Ascendant 4 > Sagittarius. > > My Moon is out to lunch, in terrible shape. It has only something like .5 > in shad bala. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2004 Report Share Posted April 29, 2004 Forgot to mention - I haven't the best hearing. Having said that, Jupiter is also fallen in my chart (so Jup and Merc are both debilitated). ======== - " Therese Hamilton " <eastwest Thursday, April 29, 2004 5:01 AM Re: Moon-Mercury : I have a hearing sensitivity so that most sounds, including speech, are : disturbing to me. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.670 / Virus Database: 432 - Release 28/04/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 At 09:53 PM 4/28/04 -0700, Dark Star wrote: > >typing typing typing ~ talking talking talking :: S A M E S A M E Speech comes under the second house, use of the hands under the third. Mouth and hands are two different entities. T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 I'm a lumper and you're a splitter so I can't go much further on the subject except to say that if you have Sagittary rising then Saturn would rule both 2nd and 3rd. So either you have planets there and/or Hindoo aspects to suppress the 2nd and stimulate the third. An interesting chart to study in relation to silence is that of John Cage. His biography is even called _The Roaring Silence_. Dark*Star ~ Therese Hamilton wrote: Speech comes under the second house, use of the hands under the third. > > > > > > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > / > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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