Mars and Boyd

[Guest guest]

Hi Juan,

 

I do agree that I was being too anal about the data. Astrology, in

some ways, has to live by its own rules, and this can include the use

of data that might seem unlikely.

 

You are also right that we can't let the stringent disciplines of

other so-called sciences (meaning organized bodies of knowledge like

physics or history) dictate the astrological field's parameters of

functionality.

 

The DC & N is an actual event, that took place in actual history. It

has some level of intrinsic value, of which we disagree. BUT, that

Bush (also an actual thing) was born exactly 9 metonic cycles after

that document has caused me to reconsider the whole thing over again,

as we could glean significant insights into our (well, the USA's)

current predicament.

 

The Metonic cycle is a major vibration of our immediate cosmos, and

part of a balanced rhythmic matrix that (I feel) helps life flourish

here. Without going into too much detail about why I think this, I

would simply say that the Sun/Earth/Moon dynamo has settled into this

19-year cycle, and stabilized there over the last millions of years,

and is a big part of why things are the way they are on the planet

and how we behave in mundane ways -- calendars and other such

behaviors come to mind.

 

So, I guess, now that we have this connection, it would be foolish to

not study " Boyd " in that vein. Speaking of Mars, a chart for the the

Earth's aphelion for Philadelphia in 1775, which is June 30, 1o:45

EST, has Mars/Neptune rising, which may be a factor in why that next

year turned so brutal.

 

Finally, I did NOT vote for Bush, and have not and will not ever

support him or his policies. He is a disaster for humanity.

 

- Ed K

 

 

 

, jar@e... wrote:

>

> >One is the date that the Continental Congress declared itself in a

state

> >of hostility -- May 15, 1775. The other is for the first official

> >Declaration of War by a President -- June 19, 1812. There are

others, but

> >both of these are viable in terms of reason as well as useful.

>

> Thank you for providing dates that seem more reasonable and useful

to you.

>

> You may define your criteria of what is reasonable, and work

according to

> it. I have defined mine, and they are available for anyone to read

them. I

> don't think your rationality and logic in dismissing the importance

of the

> Boyd chart is wrong; I just don't share it. But to pretend that

others

> must follow my criteria alone, and that yours is wrong, is neither

> reasonable nor useful. I think it's wrong to try to disqualify the

work of

> others because they follow different criteria.

>

> Which brings me to your question:

>

> >What is an " abject figure " ?

>

> by " figure " I meant international or historical figure, or

personage

> (someone of standing, as in Spanish). I also meant " figure " to

suggest

> " appearance " or " image " , your " stamp " .

>

> Juan

[Guest guest]

> Finally, I did NOT vote for Bush, and have not and will not ever

> support him or his policies. He is a disaster for humanity.

>

> - Ed K

 

 

You must learn to keep your personal opinions to yourself. This

comment is off-topic by any definition.

(BH)

 

 

*

[Guest guest]

, " brianrhiggins2003 "

<brianrhiggins@e...> wrote:

> > Finally, I did NOT vote for Bush, and have not and will not ever

> > support him or his policies. He is a disaster for humanity.

> >

> > - Ed K

>

>

> You must learn to keep your personal opinions to yourself. This

> comment is off-topic by any definition.

 

 

You must learn that I don't care at all that it bothers you.

 

Bush = Hitler.

 

- Ed K

 

 

 

 

> (BH)

>

>

> *

[Guest guest]

>You are also right that we can't let the stringent disciplines of other

>so-called sciences (meaning organized bodies of knowledge like physics or

>history) dictate the astrological field's parameters of functionality.

 

Thanks for your comments Ed. To be honest, the only 2 charts of the U.S. I

have ever used are Boyd and the July 4 1776 chart(s), and I know I must

learn to open myself to other possibilities and investigate other possible

historical moments. I must clarify, however, that I don't think there is

only one chart for a country. Each moment charted will reflect the national

significance of that moment, and it depends on the context what chart would

be more useful.

 

The military and psychological context of the Boyd chart is specially

useful in times of war, and in this case and in the previous bombing of

Afghanistan, the significance of the July 6 1775 Declaration is very

obvious to anyone who reads it, added to the link this chart has with G.W.

Bush, of which you gave another factor that strengthens that link (i.e.,

the repetition of the Sun/Moon positions and the Metonic cycle).

 

One personal reason for not having dealt with other possible charts is

political. My interest in the U.S. chart has been mostly in analyzing

astrologically --and with research on the centaurs in mind-- U.S.

aggression and abuse of other, mostly weak Third World countries, of which

I am a part. I am not an American and live in an area with a long history

of these abuses, so probably I would be more interested in studying other

charts if my reality were different.

 

I have often used the Boyd and the 1776 chart together, explaining what is

the perspective offered by each. See for example:

 

The Peace demonstrations of February 15th

http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts/mundane/peace.html

 

I quote here the relevant part:

 

<<July 4th 1776 is the event which probably charts the American myth more

than any other. I have always felt that this is the chart of the American

people, that with which they identify more strongly. It is the image they

(want to) have about themselves, what they always " sell " to the rest of the

world, regardless of the fact that the principles expressed in the

Declaration of Independence are consistently violated over and over again

in U.S. dealings with other (especially weak) nations.

 

<<But I think that July 4th 1776 is established as the date with which

Americans as a people identify more, so ingrained the historical foundation

myths are. In Astrological tradition, it is the " popular " chart (in the

Sibley or in any other of the many different times of the day used), the

one that has always had more weight and in which people believe more. Long

ago I explained that I like to take it as the chart of the people in

contrast to the Boyd chart, which is more accurate in depicting U.S.

international conflicts:

 

<< " There is no need to try to " prove " one in order to invalidate the other,

or to prove that one is superior to the other. My opinion is that the

Declaration of War (Boyd) chart and the Declaration of Independence are

equally valid charts (I like especially the Sibley chart), depending on the

point of view, and that at times of War the Boyd chart is probably, by

sheer logic, more significant. I believe the 4th of July chart is more

mythical and it relates more to the American people, and as I said, the

Boyd chart is a more accurate, less mythical description " . [ ref: " Testing

the chart of

Islam " , http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts/mundane/islamboyd.html,

Oct 24 2001: on methodology and the Boyd chart " ].

 

<<Anyway, the peace demonstrations of February 15th, from one perspective,

" belong " to the people, it was their work and their glory, so probably,

from the American perspective of the rally, this popular dimension is

incarnated in the " Declaration of Independence " chart, or at least it could

be seen more clearly in this chart. >>

 

In my study of Chechenia found in my site:

http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/posts/mundane/chechenia.html

 

I have summarized what is my methodological approach, illustrated in that

study and reiterated in many places:

 

<<One thing I would not do, is pretending to find one date, one chart, and

rest peacefully with it, referring everything (transits, etc.) to it,

eliminating the others. I would see what each of the dates tells me and how

these dates are inter-related. This is " organic " to me.

 

<<The problem is the conception one has about a " birth chart " . Most of

these mundane birth charts are based on exact times which are the result of

someone's " rectification " . Exact recorded times not only do not exist in

many of these cases, but trying to find them is too unrealistic, because

often the significant moment one would choose is totally deluded in the

complex flow of events, and such a moment simply does not exist. The moment

chosen in those cases is the result of the subjective prejudiced perception

of each astrologer.

 

<<Look for example at the different moments chosen for the formation of the

Russian Federation...

 

<<So I think one needs a different approach. One has as a starting point a

series of significant dates. They are all historically significant and

symbolic. Now put them to test to see which one works better. There are

always a priori " reasons " why one starting date should be better than the

other. From my perspective, to say a priori, without any previous

explicitly astrological investigation, that " this is the one to use " , is

prejudice, not astrology. It may happen that, after astrological

investigation, one remains undecided between 2 or 3 possible dates. In that

case, each of the dates can offer its own symbolic perspective.

 

<<For example, the Boyd US chart offers a " War " perspective, the 4th of

July a " mythical perspective " , etc. Even the chart made for the death of

President Lincoln offers a useful perspective.

 

<<I know that what I am saying goes against normal practice and beliefs. I

will say what I think, knowing that very few or no one agrees with me or

will openly reject it.

 

<<To have one single, unique " chart " , with exact angles and all, when there

is no historical record of any reasonably approximate time, is to me an

unacceptable absurdity, a lot of nonsense. I will always summarily

disregard those charts, Ascendants, Midheavens, house positions, etc. I

cannot use them indiscriminately without violating the way my mind is

structured. I can use them only as reference points to analyze the

inter-relationship between radical and transiting planets, and maybe the

Moon. Angles are useless in contexts like this.

 

<<Instead, you establish the organic nature of an entity examining its

history, its flow in time. There are no houses or signs in this approach,

only " juncture " or " critical " times (4th harmonic planetary aspects) that

become revelations or outpourings of meaning. Unfortunately, the " seed

metaphor " which dominates astrological thinking and practice, and which is

the result of a mechanistic, cause-and-effect materialistic paradigm, has

established a mental habit --or dogma-- that strives to refer everything to

the original seed --or chart. I find this rigid and archaic. The entity

under study is only approximated through astrology, and certainly not

through one chart (or date) only, but through several significant

" epiphanical " dates interacting with each other.

 

I recently wrote an essay dealing with these ideas applied to natal astrology:

" On the Seed Metaphor "

http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/essays/seed.html

 

Juan

[Guest guest]

Juan R. writes.....

One personal reason for not having dealt with other possible charts is

political. My interest in the U.S. chart has been mostly in analyzing

astrologically --and with research on the centaurs in mind-- U.S.

aggression and abuse of other, mostly weak Third World countries, of which

I am a part. I am not an American and live in an area with a long history

of these abuses, so probably I would be more interested in studying other

charts if my reality were different.

 

Juan....

If I understand you correctly, I am reading that you are saying....

" My interest in the U.S. chart has been mostly in analyzing

astrologically U.S. aggression and abuse of other, mostly weak Third World

countries, of which I am a part. "

 

There are/were many mistakes made by our government and our people.

There are also many wonderful achievements and contributions made by this same

government and its people.

 

Your " area " country is blessed with democracy, no army, extraordinary

educational opportunities, a durable economy and your currency is the US Dollar.

The USA and its people have done and are doing wonderful things for your

country. Yes there are the obvious " ugly americans " but the " majority " are

individuals (you have met) that have come to your country to contribute to you

having a greater society. Are you Independent or are you being controlled by the

USA?

 

This is an opportune time to recognize the effect of Mercury's squared position

to the Neptune/Jupiter opposition and that Mercury is in transition from

retrograde to forward-motion behavior. Admitting that you have a prejudiced

perception of the USA actually gives you an opportunity to step out of those

confines.

 

Science, learning and knowledge is hampered by political thinking.

Step out of the box(we constantly create boxes for ourselves)

 

I agree with you " I don't think there is only one chart for a country. "

 

The weighting and significance of each chart is subjective.....

Look at George Washington's Inaugural Chart which I believe its a compliment to

the " Astrological Picture " of the USA and possibly more significant than the

" Boyd " Chart.

 

Jivio

 

PS: Calling any July 4th 1776 chart the American " myth " sounds slanderous to

me. Our Independence and our interpretation of Independence is not a " myth " but

we'll save that argument for another time. Independence may be the most

misunderstood word in the dictionary and is open to interpretation.

 

<<July 4th 1776 is the event which probably charts the American myth more than

any other. I have always felt that this is the chart of the American people,

that with which they identify more strongly. It is the image they(want to) have

about themselves, what they always " sell " to the rest of the world, regardless

of the fact that the principles expressed in the Declaration of Independence are

consistently violated over and over again in U.S. dealings with other

(especially weak) nations.

 

 

 

 

" How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " -----

 

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[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, Juan had left this list about two months ago, so you

may want to send this message to him personally.

 

I know he'd be happy to reply to your comments.

 

 

- Ed K

 

 

 

, John Sarlya

<johnsarlya@p...> wrote:

>

> Juan R. writes.....

> One personal reason for not having dealt with other possible charts

is

> political. My interest in the U.S. chart has been mostly in

analyzing

> astrologically --and with research on the centaurs in mind-- U.S.

> aggression and abuse of other, mostly weak Third World countries,

of which

> I am a part. I am not an American and live in an area with a long

history

> of these abuses, so probably I would be more interested in studying

other

> charts if my reality were different.

>

> Juan....

> If I understand you correctly, I am reading that you are saying....

> " My interest in the U.S. chart has been mostly in analyzing

> astrologically U.S. aggression and abuse of other, mostly weak

Third World countries, of which I am a part. "

>

> There are/were many mistakes made by our government and our people.

> There are also many wonderful achievements and contributions made

by this same government and its people.

>

> Your " area " country is blessed with democracy, no army,

extraordinary educational opportunities, a durable economy and your

currency is the US Dollar. The USA and its people have done and are

doing wonderful things for your country. Yes there are the

obvious " ugly americans " but the " majority " are individuals (you have

met) that have come to your country to contribute to you having a

greater society. Are you Independent or are you being controlled by

the USA?

>

> This is an opportune time to recognize the effect of Mercury's

squared position to the Neptune/Jupiter opposition and that Mercury

is in transition from retrograde to forward-motion behavior.

Admitting that you have a prejudiced perception of the USA actually

gives you an opportunity to step out of those confines.

>

> Science, learning and knowledge is hampered by political thinking.

> Step out of the box(we constantly create boxes for ourselves)

>

> I agree with you " I don't think there is only one chart for

a country. "

>

> The weighting and significance of each chart is subjective.....

> Look at George Washington's Inaugural Chart which I believe its a

compliment to the " Astrological Picture " of the USA and possibly more

significant than the " Boyd " Chart.

>

> Jivio

>

> PS: Calling any July 4th 1776 chart the American " myth " sounds

slanderous to me. Our Independence and our interpretation of

Independence is not a " myth " but we'll save that argument for another

time. Independence may be the most misunderstood word in the

dictionary and is open to interpretation.

>

> <<July 4th 1776 is the event which probably charts the American

myth more than any other. I have always felt that this is the chart

of the American people, that with which they identify more strongly.

It is the image they(want to) have about themselves, what they

always " sell " to the rest of the world, regardless of the fact that

the principles expressed in the Declaration of Independence are

consistently violated over and over again in U.S. dealings with other

(especially weak) nations.

>

>

>

>

> " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ---

--

>

> Post message:

> Subscribe: -

> Un: -

> List owner: -owner

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /

>

>

[Guest guest]

Weird... I just got his thread (delivered on May 18th) but his e-mail shows that

it was sent on March 29th. Tks for the heads up!

 

 

Ed Kohout [sMTP:crumpo]

Monday, May 19, 2003 3:13 PM

 

Re: Mars and Boyd

 

Unfortunately, Juan had left this list about two months ago, so you

may want to send this message to him personally.

 

I know he'd be happy to reply to your comments.

 

 

- Ed K

 

 

 

, John Sarlya

<johnsarlya@p...> wrote:

>

> Juan R. writes.....

> One personal reason for not having dealt with other possible charts

is

> political. My interest in the U.S. chart has been mostly in

analyzing

> astrologically --and with research on the centaurs in mind-- U.S.

> aggression and abuse of other, mostly weak Third World countries,

of which

> I am a part. I am not an American and live in an area with a long

history

> of these abuses, so probably I would be more interested in studying

other

> charts if my reality were different.

>

> Juan....

> If I understand you correctly, I am reading that you are saying....

> " My interest in the U.S. chart has been mostly in analyzing

> astrologically U.S. aggression and abuse of other, mostly weak

Third World countries, of which I am a part. "

>

> There are/were many mistakes made by our government and our people.

> There are also many wonderful achievements and contributions made

by this same government and its people.

>

> Your " area " country is blessed with democracy, no army,

extraordinary educational opportunities, a durable economy and your

currency is the US Dollar. The USA and its people have done and are

doing wonderful things for your country. Yes there are the

obvious " ugly americans " but the " majority " are individuals (you have

met) that have come to your country to contribute to you having a

greater society. Are you Independent or are you being controlled by

the USA?

>

> This is an opportune time to recognize the effect of Mercury's

squared position to the Neptune/Jupiter opposition and that Mercury

is in transition from retrograde to forward-motion behavior.

Admitting that you have a prejudiced perception of the USA actually

gives you an opportunity to step out of those confines.

>

> Science, learning and knowledge is hampered by political thinking.

> Step out of the box(we constantly create boxes for ourselves)

>

> I agree with you " I don't think there is only one chart for

a country. "

>

> The weighting and significance of each chart is subjective.....

> Look at George Washington's Inaugural Chart which I believe its a

compliment to the " Astrological Picture " of the USA and possibly more

significant than the " Boyd " Chart.

>

> Jivio

>

> PS: Calling any July 4th 1776 chart the American " myth " sounds

slanderous to me. Our Independence and our interpretation of

Independence is not a " myth " but we'll save that argument for another

time. Independence may be the most misunderstood word in the

dictionary and is open to interpretation.

>

> <<July 4th 1776 is the event which probably charts the American

myth more than any other. I have always felt that this is the chart

of the American people, that with which they identify more strongly.

It is the image they(want to) have about themselves, what they

always " sell " to the rest of the world, regardless of the fact that

the principles expressed in the Declaration of Independence are

consistently violated over and over again in U.S. dealings with other

(especially weak) nations.

>

>

>

>

> " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ---

--

>

> Post message:

> Subscribe: -

> Un: -

> List owner: -owner

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /

>

>