Research-Wide orbs- another case

[Guest guest]

, alfonso osorio

<alfonsoosorio> wrote:

>

> I don`t think Terese needs my help, but come on, Ed, she was just

trying to show you, in a preliminary way that indeed there is a

difference between between similar aspects of mars and moon, but

originated from different houses.

>

> Of course Ed, that 13 examples are a very small sample and that she

did not use a control group as we know it is needed in a scientific

analysis. And it is obvious that a chart must be analyzed under a

whole concept and not by a single aspect, but she already knows that.

She was just having the courtesy of taking some of her time to give

you some examples.

 

Hi there,

 

I agree. I have nothing but enormous respect for Teresa, and I think

she's a class act.

 

 

 

> As I mentioned in Astromundi list, I had analyzed the charts of

more than 1000 actors and I had found more correspondences between

some houses and some aspects with the use of the sidereal zodiac and

with the meanings of the houses by hindu concepts.

>

> And nobody can disregard the sample of 1000 actors. Unfortunately I

hadn`t have the time to finish that research.

 

Well, Alfonso, I would like to see exactly what parameters you used

to study this volume of charts, and hope you share this with us in

the future. Studying only actors will prove nothing about the 99.9%

of us who are non-actors.

 

What do you mean when you say " I had analyzed... " and then " I hadn't

had the time to finish that research. " ?

 

Often I see in astrologers the propensity to see only what one wants

to see. Do you expect to see something good when Mars is in

some " exaltation " ? Then you will, no matter what anyone else says,

or what any other system might say. Now, that's not to say that your

prowess of perception or ability to ingest and interperet data is in

any way poor. But, what is lacking is the wide agreement of our

peers (and I don't mean Damon or W. Alan White) that such structures

are reliable indicators.

 

After all, you're asking us to accept that your interpretations,

based on a 12-fold division of the sky, are of an especial nature.

Asserting that the sidereal zodiac you use (not Fagan) is somehow far

superior to the tropical is only based upon your opinions, and

nothing else.

 

 

 

> In regard to the question of Risto, of why Terese includes cases

where the aspects have even 15 degrees of orb, let me explain you

that in hindu astrology we work with the physical concept that " a

light in one corner of the room lights the entire room " !

> So although mars is placed in 5 degrees in libra, it can give an

aspect to the moon, if she it is placed in any of the degrees of the

cardinal signs.

 

This, to me, is the largest problem in the Vedic. It takes

mathematical certitude and tosses it to the wind.

 

 

 

 

> And you would be surprised to know that I work with that concept

and orb but simultaneously when it comes to predictions I work with

just one degree of orb.Like the frenchs would say: cherchez the orbe

nule.

>

> As a Christmas gift to Ed and Mr Starman, please calculate the

following chart for a person born on Sept 29/1925 1:35 pm in Houston.

>

> The tropical zodiac with placidus houses, indicates that he has

jupiter fallen in capricorn, venus fallen in scorpio, mars fallen in

libra an he would have saturn and venus in his 10th house of career.

Almost all schools agree that saturn in the 10th do not facilitate

promotions and rises in your career.

>

> If you calculate his chart, with sidereal zodiac and hindu house,

you will find: jupiter in domicile in sagitarius in his first house,

venus in his own house in libra, saturn exalted in libra and he would

have in his 10th of career, that corresponds to the sign of virgo,

the following 3 planets: sun( to shine), mars( his efforts and

energies) and mercury(intellect, communication) in his own house of

virgo.

>

> Which of these charts reflect more appropiately the life of the

late politician, John Tower, who was a four term senator?

 

Ahh, i just love these types of exercises! Firstly, you present us

with the fallacy of an " either-or " argument -- that there are only

two ways to do the interp. This is not the case in the real world.

 

Jupiter rising in any chart bestows some good luck in life, and the

ability to rise. Saturn is an important planet for politicians who

want to be in control.

 

If we use Cosmobiology, we find that Tower's MC is on the worldly

JU/SA midpiont, which give him the ability to tap into the

evolutionary direction of the society (JU/SA) in his career (MC).

This is a classic favorable for any politician, and such an important

measurement would never show up in either the Vedic or the Western

systems, which alone seems to suggest that they are rather weak.

But....

 

How about Luna, where we see how the world judges the individual?

Here we have MO = SO/NN = VE/UR = ASC/MC, which is someone who has

the ability to do big things in the leadership role, both financially

and with large groups, such as unions or the CCC, and makes it his

WHOLE LIFE (ASC/MC).

 

SO/NE = VE/PL: His ability to bullshit the public is rather powerful

and highly attractive. This is reinforced by SO/PL = MO/VE, which

means that this person will ALWAYS get away with his unabashed power-

grabs.

 

I could go on and on, but I hope you can see the advantages of using

combinations, and how the personal points like ASC and MC fit into

the planetary picture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

> I can present thousands of examples, but I don`t have the time.

With few it can suffice.

>

> It is said that you can lead the horse to the river, but you can`t

force it to drink the water.

 

" You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink " is the

saying.

 

Very best,

Ed K

[Guest guest]

Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:28:34 -0800 (PST), alfonso osorio kirjoitti:

 

>In regard to the question of Risto, of why Terese includes cases where the

aspects have even 15 degrees of orb, let me explain you that in hindu astrology

we work with the physical concept that " a light in one corner of the room

lights the entire room " !

 

Yes, I am familiar with the concept. Actually, I invented a rationale

a bit similar to this some 20 years ago, when (after discarding all

quadrant divisions) I started using " Sign-houses " even when I had not

heard anything about Hindu or ancient Western astrological practices.

Sign-houses just seemed to work for some purposes.

>

>And you would be surprised to know that I work with that concept and orb but

simultaneously when it comes to predictions I work with just one degree of orb.

 

Likewise here...

 

Thanks for your comments,

 

Risto V

[Guest guest]

At 08:28 AM 12/20/02 -0800, Alfonso wrote:

>

>I don`t think Terese needs my help,

 

Hey, it doesn't hurt to have other team members! Thanks for your helpful

words in this post.

 

>As a Christmas gift to Ed and Mr Starman, please calculate the following

chart for a person born on Sept 29/1925 1:35 pm in Houston.

 

You have some really good example charts. Maybe if we get our web site set

up, we can post a few of them?

 

Which Hindu house system do you use, Alfonso?

 

>Merry Christmas to all and until next time.

 

And happy holidays to everyone...With family visits coming up I don't know

how much time I'll have to be on-line.

 

Terese

[Guest guest]

At 09:31 PM 12/20/02 -0000, Ed K wrote:

 

>I agree. I have nothing but enormous respect for Teresa, and I think

>she's a class act.

 

Wow, what a compliment!! Thanks (no strongs attached). On the Tropical

boards they either ignore me (politely while quickly deleting my posts) or

just as politely refuse to post until I'm gone.

 

>Do you expect to see something good when Mars is in

>some " exaltation " ? Then you will, no matter what anyone else says,

>or what any other system might say.

 

No, I don't think it works this way. It's so easy to test something like

this. It's not just 'Mars in exaltaion.' It has to be something specific

such as I posted: exalted Mars aspecting a 10th house Moon. I chose the

Moon because it's said to be receptive, to absorb the energies of other

planets, and the 10th is a public house. What would be wrong with taking

all the charts from ADB (admittedly only a few) and for beginning anecdotal

purposes, checking the bios for everyone with an exalted Mars square the

Moon in 10th in both zodiacs, and then compare the differences or

similarities?

 

You can try this exalted planet type of research with any planets. Say an

exalted Venus in a certain position and physical beauty. Check out both

zodiacs. Sure, each little experiment may not mean much alone, but suppose

you took 20 profiles and one zodiac or the other always came up with pluses

for (as an example) exalted planets? There are many ways to do research.

 

Any research that compares the same type of study in both zodiacs is a

controlled study of sorts.

 

As Mark McDonough says, there is a 'Pyranid of Truth.' The bottom and

widest area is unsystematic obervation which is what just about every

astrologer does.

 

The next step up is what Mark calls 'systematic observation,' where the

astrologer studies a group of charts where everyone shares a common

biograpahical trait or astrological condition. This is the level I was

working at with the Moon-Mars aspects. Statistical tests are higher up on

the pyramaid and are meaningless without the support of the bottom layers.

Astrology just isn't ready to jump into the statistical jungle without some

additional theory for which we have at least a little evidence at level 2.

 

>Ahh, i just love these types of exercises! Firstly, you present us

>with the fallacy of an " either-or " argument -- that there are only

>two ways to do the interp. This is not the case in the real world.

>

>Jupiter rising in any chart bestows some good luck in life, and the

>ability to rise. Saturn is an important planet for politicians who

>want to be in control.

 

The trouble with you Ed, is that you love theoretical arguments, but I

haven't seen you give a shred of support for your statements. What is far

more important is digging into actual studies.

 

" Jupiter rising in any chart... " ANY chart? O.K., let's see you produce 72

charts with Jupiter rising, three each with Jupiter in each sign in both

zodiacs. Then you'll be showing us something. Or you can just show us 20

charts, five with Jupiter rising in Cancer in both zodiacs and 5 with

Jupiter in Capricorn (fall) in both zodiacs.

 

If you wanted to give some astrological support for midpoints, you'd have

to select study categories and then use a midpoint control group. If you're

looking at the zodiac, all you need to do is compare the two zodiacs using

the same research methods. The two zodiacs control each other.

 

It sounds to me, Ed, as if you want to look at everything all at once (as

for example all the different ways you might see a successful politician in

a horoscope.) We'd be drowned in details at the very onset. We have to

start small and work up from there.

 

Terese

[Guest guest]

Hi T,

 

 

, Terese Hamilton

<eastwest@s...> wrote:

> At 09:31 PM 12/20/02 -0000, Ed K wrote:

>

 

> >Do you expect to see something good when Mars is in

> >some " exaltation " ? Then you will, no matter what anyone else

says,

> >or what any other system might say.

>

> No, I don't think it works this way. It's so easy to test something

like

> this. It's not just 'Mars in exaltaion.' It has to be something

specific

> such as I posted: exalted Mars aspecting a 10th house Moon. I chose

the

> Moon because it's said to be receptive, to absorb the energies of

other

> planets, and the 10th is a public house. What would be wrong with

taking

> all the charts from ADB (admittedly only a few) and for beginning

anecdotal

> purposes, checking the bios for everyone with an exalted Mars

square the

> Moon in 10th in both zodiacs, and then compare the differences or

> similarities?

 

I guess as a starting point, yes, it is good, but moon-90-mars is

such a common aspect that this small of a sample is a drop in the

ocean.

 

I do appreciate you listing those charts, don't ge me wrong.

 

 

 

 

> You can try this exalted planet type of research with any planets.

Say an

> exalted Venus in a certain position and physical beauty. Check out

both

> zodiacs. Sure, each little experiment may not mean much alone, but

suppose

> you took 20 profiles and one zodiac or the other always came up

with pluses

> for (as an example) exalted planets? There are many ways to do

research.

 

Surely. Why not take if further and check it against those born on

Tuesdays versus Mondays, for instance, or make sure that if moon is

in 10th, the Sun has to be under the Earth, or some other such arcane

rule?

 

My whole point about the exaltations is that they were never intended

to denote some universal magical system of planetary placements. If

one looks at the recently discovered (by Fagan, no less) origin of

the exaltataions, where a planet only had one degree (rather than

sign) to " come out of hiding, " and then how that concept lost that

history but kept the tradition alive without any comprehension of

what those positions were used for, you would see that the use of

exaltations is not only arcane, but misconstrued. Saturn's

exaltation degree is based upon the heliacal rising of Saturn in 786

BC. I don't see how this is relevant in my life.

 

What one is truly doing if using exaltations is citing a sidereal

return of said planet to a specific position in 786 BC, and thus

treating it as a transit to the Babylonian Temple of Nabu! Now,

Terese, I know for a fact that neither you nor I nor any of our

clients have anything to do with the Babylonian Temple of Nabu, right?

 

The State of California has Moon opposite it's exaltation degree.

This should mean that no one would ever want to move there, or travel

there, or ship anything there by water, right??

 

 

 

 

> Any research that compares the same type of study in both zodiacs

is a

> controlled study of sorts.

 

not really.....

 

 

 

>

> As Mark McDonough says, there is a 'Pyranid of Truth.' The bottom

and

> widest area is unsystematic obervation which is what just about

every

> astrologer does.

>

> The next step up is what Mark calls 'systematic observation,' where

the

> astrologer studies a group of charts where everyone shares a common

> biograpahical trait or astrological condition. This is the level I

was

> working at with the Moon-Mars aspects. Statistical tests are higher

up on

> the pyramaid and are meaningless without the support of the bottom

layers.

> Astrology just isn't ready to jump into the statistical jungle

without some

> additional theory for which we have at least a little evidence at

level 2.

 

He is most certainly correct about the poor way astrologers

conduct " research. "

 

 

 

 

> >Jupiter rising in any chart bestows some good luck in life, and

the

> >ability to rise. Saturn is an important planet for politicians

who

> >want to be in control.

>

> The trouble with you Ed, is that you love theoretical arguments,

but I

> haven't seen you give a shred of support for your statements. What

is far

> more important is digging into actual studies.

 

Oy, are you saying that the natures of JU and SA are not like the

above?

 

 

 

 

 

> " Jupiter rising in any chart... " ANY chart? O.K., let's see you

produce 72

> charts with Jupiter rising, three each with Jupiter in each sign in

both

> zodiacs. Then you'll be showing us something. Or you can just show

us 20

> charts, five with Jupiter rising in Cancer in both zodiacs and 5

with

> Jupiter in Capricorn (fall) in both zodiacs.

 

My point is that Jupiter rising is a favorable element regardless of

sign or zodiac, and I don't have to go digging through a bunch of

charts to know such a basic tenant with universally concensus is

relevant. The same with Saturn. You'd be hard pressed to find a

text in astrology (from a relevant author) who would disagree.

 

 

 

 

> If you wanted to give some astrological support for midpoints,

you'd have

> to select study categories and then use a midpoint control group.

 

Others already have. Munkasey is my favorite.

 

 

 

 

If you're

> looking at the zodiac, all you need to do is compare the two

zodiacs using

> the same research methods. The two zodiacs control each other.

 

NO. The two zodiacs are not the only choices we have, as there are

more than two 0 Aries points floating around in the Sidereal world,

and then we have simply " no zodiac " which simply computes the pizza

pie as 360 degrees, and lets the planets do the talking.

 

 

 

> It sounds to me, Ed, as if you want to look at everything all at

once (as

> for example all the different ways you might see a successful

politician in

> a horoscope.) We'd be drowned in details at the very onset. We have

to

> start small and work up from there.

 

That may be correct, but that dosen't preclude you or I from seeing

what else is in aspect to a Moon-90-Mars, does it?

 

 

 

 

>

> Terese