Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Tuesday, February 19, 2002 4:25 AM Digest Number 279 > " How can Pluto be in Sagittarius when it's so close to Antares? " ----- > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > >Shortcut URL to this page: >/ >------ > >There are 2 messages in this issue. > >Topics in this digest: > > 1. Precession Debate 1 > " kazikluder " <kazikluder > 2. Re: Precession Debate 1 > Teresa Hamilton <eastwest > > >______________________ >______________________ > >Message: 1 > Mon, 18 Feb 2002 01:37:15 -0000 > " kazikluder " <kazikluder >Precession Debate 1 > >Hello to everyone, >I'm glad this discussion group has already been created. >During the last months I had been much curious about which approach to >the Zodiac yields the most precise results, and have gathered some >information I would like to be discussed because the issue has become >confuse for me: there are arguments and examples supporting both >approaches. > >The First One: >1. As we know, the first sign of the Sidereal Zodiac (the one where it >is actually the Spring Equinox) happens currently in Pisces. > >But > >2. Tropical Astrology usually regards people with Sun in Tropical >Aries or with Aries on the First House as " Leaders, ardent, ready to >fight and to begin enterprises; full of energy " . > >3. The Theory of Astrology states that the personality of a native of >a certain moment is most influenced by the astral energies prevailing >at the time; >and > >4. The energies prevailing when the Sun is in Tropical Aries are those >of heat and vitality, and therefore Fire (Aries is a Fire sign), >and not Water (Pisces is a Water sign, and the fishes are cold) > >5. And as could be expected, Aries-born people are energetic and >impatient. > >Far from attempting to propose any approach or criticizing anyone, I >would like to read what you say of this. > > > > > > >______________________ >______________________ > >Message: 2 > Sun, 17 Feb 2002 21:45:55 -0800 > Teresa Hamilton <eastwest >Re: Precession Debate 1 > >This is in reply to the question about Sidereal and Tropical signs of the >zodiac. I actually wrote a book dealing with this very same question when I >was moving from the Tropical to the Sidereal zodic many years ago. I came >to some interesting conclusions. The first two questions: > >>1. As we know, the first sign of the Sidereal Zodiac (the one where it >>is actually the Spring Equinox) happens currently in Pisces. But >> >>2. Tropical Astrology usually regards people with Sun in Tropical >>Aries or with Aries on the First House as " Leaders, ardent, ready to >>fight and to begin enterprises; full of energy " . > >First, a couple of preliminary comments. Even though astrologers seem to >observe sign traits and can often guess someone's zodiacal sign correctly, >all the research to date shows that the important psychological traits are >linked to the PLANETS rather than the signs. But since signs tone the way a >planet behaves, we have to assume that the signs (or certain areas of signs >such as lunar mansions) do have some kind of influence. > >So let's take the list for Tropical Aries: Leaders, ardent, ready to fight >and to begin enterprises, full of energy, impatient > >These all sound like Mars, don't they? If these traits REALLY belong to >Tropical Aries, then the same traits have to be observed in the >corresponding sidereal sign underneath Tropical Aries (same part of the sky >in our current time frame), and that sign is Sidereal Pisces. Can we make a >case for the traits of Tropical Aries belonging to sidereal Pisces? >Actually, we can if we consider the mythology of the ruling planets. > >(A note that I don't want to get into because this isn't a Vedic board is >that the sidereal water signs are " Pitta " in nature, that is, fiery. >Originally the signs were not divided into fire, earth, air and water, but >were simply " triplicities, " that is each triangle of signs had certain >similarities.) > >So Jupiter and Neptune are the lords of sidereal Pisces. Check your >mythology for Neptune. Rob Hand says in Horoscope Symbols that Neptune may >be misnamed...because the planet " has little similarity to the boisterous >Roman sea-god. " The Greek Poseidon (Neptune is Roman) was known as the > " earthshaker " because of his habit of creating earthquakes and storms at >sea. Neptune was agressive, tempetous, irascible, unsettled, and loved >speed and adventure. In naval battles, he sent storms to destroy enemy fleets. > >There are some traits of Tropical Aries that have not been noticed, mainly >because no one stops to think that the sign might really be sidereal >Pisces. One common trait is duplicity (the fishes swim in different >directions), two-sidedness, quick changing moods, which can be related both >to mutability and duality (two fishes). Sometime ago I did some research on >serial killers, who had hidden lives, and several of them had prominent >sidereal Pisces planets. (In contrast you will find real leaders with key >planets in Sidereal Aries (Tropical Taurus): Adolf Hitler, racer Dale >Earnhardt....I will look up a list and post it here later.) > >In the sidereal zodiac it's the water signs that are very emotional and >idealistic, so you'll find these traits in Pisces. Water, not fire, is the >emotional element. Fire is mental because it can transform one form of >matter into another....wood to ashes, water to steam. Just as a strong >minded person (Olympic champions) can create their victory by sheer >concentation and will power. > >There's a whole lot more to be said for Sidereal Pisces. What I've written >here is only the beginning of the track. One more very interesting >consideration is that the earth was supposed to be in the age of Pisces for >the last 2000 years. And what have those years brought? Wars and more wars, >agressive extending of boundaries, terrorism. Are these the traits of >Tropical Pisces?? Sounds more like Aries, doesn't it? Even the church >(Pisces) has used agression to extend its influence. Netpune was famous for >attempting to extend his influence through agressive action. > >So the mythology of sign lords may be the best key to the real meaning of >zodiacal signs. Notice that the Tropical community is constantly suggesting >new rulers for their signs because the traditional rulers don't fit some of >the signs. But every sidereal ruler fits like a glove if you check the >mythology of the planets. (If anyone is interested, I have published the >beginning of a series of articles on the sidereal signs in ISAR's KOSMOS.) > >Terrie Hamilton In response to 1-5, here is something to add. Kay Cavender's free information file 'sidereal.zip' is available at: Mission Astrology Group (MAG) http://users.cwnet.com/~sidereal/mag/mag.html and Western Sidereal Network (WSN) http://users.cwnet.com/~sidereal/wsn/wsn.html websites. EXCERPTS from - Cyril Fagan, THE SYMBOLISM OF THE CONSTELLATIONS, 1962 SUN IN PISCES: Mar 15 - Apr 15 The exaltation of Venus (27 deg), Pisces is traditionally said to be the nocturnal house of Jupiter, but here again its characteristics seem more to resemble the influence of Neptune with its insatiable love of sensation and pleasure, its sedulous avoidance of all responsibility, [*although these would also indicate Venus] and its attraction for mystery and concealment. The constellation Pisces is the antithesis of its opposite Virgo which is ruled by the winged Mercury. The most characteristic features of the average Piscean is his placid, easy- going, unruffled, resilient and ingratiating disposition. Piscean people will welcome strangers with open arms, pat them on the back and make an extraordinary fuss over them as if they were their most cherished friends whom they had known all their lives. And if one does detect a roguish glint in their eyes, one feels they are, at least lovable 'humbugs,' so one does not mind being taken in or fleeced by them. No other types are more expert in the art of cajoling, dodging, deceiving and make-believe. They know how to affect an air of injured innocence, and with a twinkle in the eye, pout their lips and shrug their shoulders. The scions of Pisces like to entertain on a vast scale and indulge their epicurean and sybaritic tastes to the full. They delight in the choice delicacies of the table and the produce of the purple vine. In conversation they are voluble but entertaining, and in business they like to obtain their money in the easiest way possible, and with a minimum of effort. Not infrequently their income is replenished by gambling on the stock exchange or in games of chance. They absorb knowledge without much difficulty and are adroit in juggling figures to the confusion of business opponents. Bohemian in temperament, they are attracted by all that is theatrical, glamorous, fantastic, colorful, foreign, exotic, mysterious and deceptive. Occultism and spiritualism have a particular attraction for them, and many scions of this constellation develop into mediums. As we cannot all be geniuses and as it takes a genius to be just oneself, many Pisceans take the easy way out by being other people. Excelling as actors and as mimics, most of them are just pale editions of somebody else. As surprising number of actors, movie and TV stars were born when the Sun was passing through this constellation. They like to venture into foreign lands and explore the unknown, and they delight in thrillers and gangster stories. Oddly enough, they excel in athletics and sports generally. Piscian women make good cooks, nurses and above all, midwives. Representative are: Paul Verlain, Emile Zola, Algernon Swinburne, Baudelaire, Washington Irving, Ibsen, Tennessee Williams, Amerigo Vespucci, Henry the Navigator, Lorenzo the Magnificent, Dr. Livingstone, Lady Hester Stanhope, Sir Richard Burton, Harry Houdini, D. D. Home (spiritualist), Adolph Eichmann, George Brent, St Aloysius Conzaga, General Booth, Theresa Neumann, Albert Einstein, Rudolf Nureyev, Vincent van Gogh, Arturo Toscanini, Rimsky-Korsakov, Bach, Joseph Haydn, Johann Strauss, Bartok, Alec Guinness, Marlon Brando, Michael Caine, Jean-Paul Belmondo, Smiley Burnette, Joan Crawford, Spencer Tracy, Betty Davis. Add: Giacomo Casanova, Mayor Willie Brown, Bruce Willis, James Caan Rick Barry, William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, Marcel Marceau, Steve McQueen Celine Dion, Warren Beatty, Eric Clapton, Al Gore, Christopher Walken, Gabe Kaplan, Angus Young, Vince Vaughn, Diane Wiest, Gil Scott-Heron, Herb Caen, Linda Hunt, Emmylou Harris, Marvin Gaye, David Hyde Pierce, Carl Reiner, Eddie Murphy, Alec Baldwin, Herbie Hancock, Marsha Mason, Pete Rose, Billy Corgan, Rob Lowe,Orlando, Lyle Alzado,William Hurt, Robert Downey, Jr.,Diana Ross, Martin Short, Howard Cosell, Curtis Sliwa, Marcus Allen, Glenn Close, Peter Greenaway, Rick Ocasek, Michael Moriarty, Andy Garcia, Steven Seagal, Francis Ford Coppola, Spike Lee, Quentin Tarantino, John Sebastian, John Wayne Gacy, John Wayne Bobbit, Rudolph Nureyev, Paul Kantner. Zodiacal Degrees in Sidereal (Planetary of Scientists) http://users.cwnet.com/~sidereal/mag/degrees/pideg.htm Rupert Gleadow, YOUR CHARACTER IN THE ZODIAC, 1968 Pisces more typically resembles 'the average sensual man'; it is we are told, placid, hedonistic, not difficult to please, always looking for enjoyment, a bit of a humbug and not entirely reliable, but essentially kind and good-natured; weak-willed and easy-going, but generous and quickly taken up with the sensation of the moment. Not independent and often difficult to rouse, they are talkative, fond of eating and drinking, devoted to entertainment, parties, theatricals, and amusements. Many of them are always looking for the easy way out, so work does not appeal to them as such; yet many do work hard when they are intelligent enough to understand the need for it, for they are exceptionally adaptable and versatile, and once interested in a job will take great trouble to make it a success. Unlike the restrained but kindly Aquarius, Pisces can be affable but vulgar, and can also be snobbish or too much interested in money. Pleasant to meet but sometimes tricky to do business with, they are yet people against whom it is hard to bear a grudge. The genial and pleasure-loving temperament agrees well with the rulership of Jupiter, but equally well with that of Neptune, for Neptunians love violent emotions, especially if they are unreal. The supreme Neptunian, born with it on the midheaven, was the notorious rector of Stiffkey, who, having been mauled by a lion in the circus where he exhibited himself, died murmuring, " Don't miss the evening edition! " Pisces is always looking for something beyond, perhaps for the reality behind appearances, and therefore has a particular affinity for the arts, religion and exploration. This too agrees with the rulership of Neptune. He feels an invincible attraction to the remote, and that is the common factor between its astronomers, its explorers, its poets, mystics, spiritualists and philosophers--between especially Bishop Berkeley and Einstein, Lady Hester Stanhope and D. D. Home. Wordsworth's 'trailing clouds of glory' express the same yearning as was felt by Omar Khayyam and Swinburne. Houdini, the handcuff king, was very suitably a Piscean, and so was Casanova, to whom every skirt was a mysterious romance. Holman Hunt exemplifies the travelling urge because he went all the way to Palestine to paint 'The Scapegoat,' which he could have quite well done in his back garden. On the other hand there are two members of the list who seem peculiarly unsuitable to Pisces--the hard clarity of Bach and the rationalism of Descartes. Presumably neither was born with Pisces rising! Both exemplify the importance of ultimate meaning, which is what Pisces, like the rest of us, is after; but neither was content with the remote intimations which are usual with this sign; both must have had Saturn, exceptionally strong. For Pisces, even more than Cancer, lives a succession of fantasies; hence his outward life may degenerate into an undisciplined chaos, and sometimes he honestly does not know the difference between imagination and fact. A superb example of this was the financier Horatio Bottomley, who never drank anything but champagne, ruined thousands of small investors and doubtless believed every word he heard come out of his own mouth. His biography is a fine example of the illusions that arise when Pisces and Neptune are pushed to the farthest possible extreme--he had Neptune setting in conjunction with the Sun. Pisceans dislike taking decisions and making distinctions--they prefer to leave everything fluid and trust to luck. They are ingratiating and resilient, but tend to excess, especially in self- indulgence. They are often credulous and undiscriminating, hence they are easily misled and bamboozled, not so much by political ramps--not having too much sense of responsibility they can ignore those--as by unfounded scares, bogus 'opportunities,' and too much attention to fortune-tellers and spirit communications. They love everything mysterious, glamorous, exotic, and sybaritic, but they also have gift for making contacts in many directions, hence they succeed in all professions requiring publicity and imagination, such as journalism, the cinema or theatre, politics and the arts. The Piscean mentality is well expressed in the poets Swinburne and Omar Khayyam, and especially in George Russell ('AE'), whose works abound in such lines as the following: When the breath of twilight blows to flame the misty skies, All its vaporous sapphire, violet glow, and silver gleam With their magic flood me through the gateways of the eyes; I am one with the twilight's dream. GARTH ALLEN, " Pisces watermark! " American Astrology 7/58 Alec Guinness' snatching of an Oscar as the year's best actor for The Bridge on the River Kwai represented the seventh time a sidereal Piscian has won that supreme trophy in the thirty-year history of the film industry's Academy awards. Born April 2nd, 1914 in West London, Alec Guinness accepted his Oscar at a show-biz luncheon in London's Savoy Hotel, while still in the make-up and costume of the bewhiskered, dirty old tramp he is portraying in his newest motion picture! Guinness is usually unrecognizable from one picture to the next because of his superbly realistic disguises. This mastery of disguise is most intriguing, for Pisces in the natural constellation of theatrical effect and mimicry. Piscian actors do their best work in roles calling for dramatic visual effect and this calls to mind Guinness' fellow Piscians of the past, like Lon Chaney and George Arliss, and his double-Pisces contemporary Marlon Brando--all " men of a thousand faces. " One journalist described Guinness as a " jack-pudding genius of hilarious disguise. " Astrologically, the outstanding earmarks of the Piscian complex are masquerade, distant travel and plasticity of affiliation. Shades of Sir Richard Burton, the nineteenth-century master masquerader, traveler and religions changer of all time! Alec Guinness, who completes the Neptunian circuit by nurturing superstitions and a belief in the supernatural went so far as to become a Roman Catholic convert three years ago. No matter what department of his life you scrutinize, you come face to face with telltale signatures of the constellation Pisces. * * * GARTH ALLEN " Natal Potpourri, " American Astrology, 2/63 Years back, we pointed out that Piscian film actors and actresses have a corner on the Oscar market. Neptune-ruled Pisces is the constellation par excellence of the make-up artist, the grimace-and- gesture master, the other-worldly dramatist. Pisces is the zodiacal sector that sired such specialists of the weird and woozy as Hans Christian Anderson, Sir Richard Burton, Algernon Blackwood, Washington Irving, Charles Jackson, Mark Hellinger and Tennessee Williams. Fairy tales, Arabian nights, ghost stories, headless horsemen, lost weekends, green pastures and glass menageries--these are the sorts of imagery in which the Neptunian imagination loves to revel. The expert in special- effect hokum is apt to be a Piscian, as witness Harry Houdini, Lee Shubert, Hendrik Ibsen, Florenz Ziegleld, and Robert Helpman. Even as scientists, Piscians are prone to come up with dazzling, logic defying concepts as did Einstein, Priestley, LaPlace, Steinmetz and Millikan. There is a special aura of mystery and dramatic flare to whatever the Piscian imagination touches. And when it comes to acting itself, whew! Make-up laid on by the pound. Alec Guinness and the late Lon Chaney, both thespians of a thousand faces, are the prize examples, these men being virtually unrecognizable from one production to the next. The reason we reminisce now about the mask and disguise motif of Pisces is that at this writing we are just recovering from two hours spent finding out What Ever Happened to Baby Jane? The two old cinematic pros who made the picture, Bette Davis and Joan Crawford, are both sidereal Piscians. For sheer Neptune-Pisces symbology, this film must taken historic histrionic honors: imprisonment of an invalid, alcoholic delusion, psychic anguish, and the final scene at the ocean's edge. Name a Neptunism and Baby Jane included it somewhere in its footage. Best of all, though, were the fascinating projections of the Piscian celluloid queens themselves, and we made special note of the claim that both ladies tended personally to their own make-up jobs. Let's not leave this subject without mentioning another interesting pair of actors. What two roles in motion picture history were centered around the unique theme of a character's spiritual and physical battle with a denizen of the ocean? Why, Gregory Peck's Moby Dick and Spencer Tracy's Old Man and the Sea, of course! Both Peck and Tracy, oddly enough, celebrate the very same birthday, which is April 5th. April 5th, both of them? Tropical Aries, sidereal Pisces; take your pick. There's something fishy about the tropical situation. * * * GARTH ALLEN, " Astro-Semantics " A.A. 1/63 We did a double take at the sentence which gave his birthdate, for it stated, " Mr Parks was born in Los Angeles, on April 1, 1922, the son of a petroleum engineer. " It was clearly another of those instances of what we call living symbolism--the literal expression in modern times of classical astrological symbology. The sentence was in the special press-release biography of Robert Joseph Parks, the director of the Mariner Project which had just dispatched a space probe in the direction of the planet Venus. It is only fitting that a sidereal Piscian should have been the brains behind the greatest navigation feat in history, that the vessel itself should bear the name Mariner II and that the distant port should be the spatial ocean around Venus, the planet exalted in Pisces. Not germane, but of unique interest, is the fact that the constellation Pisces had been on the Mid-heaven of Cape Canaveral at launching time, when the great rocket lifted zenith-ward from its pad. Only a few days earlier, while contemplating possible items for this article, we had made a note to sometime talk about having gleefully discovered that Nathaniel Bowditch had been a sidereal Piscian. The opening sentence prefacing the encyclopedic volume Bowditch's Practical Navigator, now in its 88th edition under U.S. auspices, says: " Nathaniel Bowditch was born on March 26, 1773, at Salem, Mass., fourth of seven children of shipmaster Habakkuk Bowditch and his wife, Mary. " Not long before reading that choice sentence, we had enjoyed the revival on television of an old Shirley Temple movie in which Shirley had darlinged her way through the role of a light-house dweller whose virtues and skills were accredited to her having been raised on " Bowditch and the Bible. " Students of astrology, take note of which side of the vernal equinoctial point the birthdates of these mariners, both ancient and modern, fell. Then ponder that the constellation Pisces held the natal Suns of such famed seagoing explorers as Henry the Navigator himself and Amerigo Vespucci, the man whose very name came to identify the New World. Also mull over the strange statistical tabulation reported some time back which showed that when the birthdates of noted Americans in Who's Who who were born in other countries than the United States are compared with the birthdates of native-born notables, sidereal Pisces is significantly overrepresented! It does no good incidentally, to try to explain away such statistics as reflecting the pioneering instinct of Aries, because the clear-cut date distinctions just cannot be made to work out that way. Besides, the " pioneer " keyword came to be assigned to Aries only in very recent times and plainly originated from the observation that so many explorers, world travelers and globe- trotters (Dr. David Livingston of " presume " fame, Sir Richard Burton, Osa Johnson, Lowell Thomas, Admiral Denfield, and Frank Buck, for several examples) were born under tropical Aries sponsorship in most instances. Sidereal Piscians are so constructed psychologically that they find it easier than others to pull up their domestic anchors to mosey around in foreign parts; their lack of ethnic loyalties is oftimes flamboyant. Piscians are born immigrants, in both literal and figurative senses. Little wonder is it than any group of religious converts to drastically different creeds than they were born into is apt to be loaded with sidereal Piscians. The same goes for nationality changelings. Ditto, political spies and defectors as shown by FBI case-history publications. Also, The Star Maps, Ingress Charts for Sidereal vs. Tropical location: http://users.cwnet.com/~sidereal/mag/szvstz.htm Jack Sirildo Contreras Western Sidereal Astrologer http://users.cwnet.com/~sidereal/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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