a reflection

[Guest guest]

CAUTION: LONG POSTING

 

Yesterday Jewel wrote:

_______________

Message: 1

Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:32:23 -0800

" JEWEL ST. MICHEL " <venusprime

Re: Close but no cigar

 

I am just getting into Sidereal and am finding many interesting little

things. like the man I live with who is born Aug 4 and yet before I knew him

I kept thinking he was a Cancer, or at least a Cancer Moon or Rising. Even

though he is a big man with a long mane of hair who is happy to be in the

spot light and hams it up, superficial Leo qualities, granted...he always

feels most comfortable in occupations that focus on food and feeding people,

nurturing and caring for them, and he is very watery and emotional, with a

profound connection to the ocean and the water in general. When I did his

chart initially (Tropical) I did find some Cancer in there, and I just

figured on the 'esoteric' interpretation of the sun sign having issues with

the energy and natives of the preceding sign, etc.

[snip]

________________

 

Jewel, I too am apparently on the same path of discovery as you. Although

I am not sure just what you mean by this " esoteric " interpretation of the

sun sign, I have, as you have, been simply applying the notion of a

sidereal context to my own chart and that of my immediate family and

friends. And for the most part, the sidereal does not seem to be patently

wrong. And although I have, in the main, written here about my doubts

relative to trying to think of Mick Jagger as a Cancer (!), or Burt

Lancaster as a Libra (not to mention the previous example of that

quintessential Scorpio Gen. George Patton), please know that I am still

working anyway with the sidereal model.

 

Actually I figured that once all the houses and planets in Jagger's chart

were known, we would see Leo rising, at least!, or Sun in the 5th, at least!

But such was not the case.

Here, for easy reference, is a copy of the info that Kevin kindly provided:

 

Mick Jagger

Monday, July 26, 1943 6:30:00 AM

Dartford, England

Time Zone: 00:00 (UT)

Longitude 000d W 14m

Latitude 15d N 27m

Campanus Houses

Sidereal Zodiac

Mean Nodes

Mean Apogee

 

Table of Planets and Houses

 

Planet Position

 

Sun 08Can27

Moon 03Tau09

Mercury 17Can28

Venus 19Leo46

Mars 18Ari24

Jupiter 11Can35

Saturn 28Tau01

Uranus 13Tau51

Neptune 05Vir52

Pluto 12Can46

Ascendant 18Can47

Midheaven 18Ari51

MNNode 22Can39

MSNode 22Cap39

Chiron 05Leo58

BlackMoon 13Can01

 

House Position

 

First 18Can47 Seventh 18Cap47

Second 17Leo37 Eighth 17Aqu37

Third 17Vir37 Ninth 17Pis37

Fourth 18Lib51 Tenth 18Ari51

Fifth 20Sco03 Eleventh 20Tau03

Sixth 19Sag59 Twelfth 19Gem59

 

The most prominent feature of Jagger's Sidereal chart is the triple

conjunction of Sun, Jupiter (exalted in Cancer), and Pluto at the

Ascendent. No matter what sign were involved in these, I should think that

it would lend quite a " Solarian " (and thus quasi-Leonian?) flavour to the

personality of the native. Also whatever the Black Moon is, it is located

there as well, with the Moon's North Node but a few degrees further on.

 

The Fifth House is qualified by Scorpio (20`) and contains no planets.

However the ruler, Pluto, is, as already shown, conjunct the Ascendent with

Sun and Jupiter. Or if one relates to the Jyotish system, which also uses

the Sidereal, the ruler of the Fifth is Mars at the Midheaven! (Mars in

fiery Aries).

 

In any event, what do we know of entertainers? with regard to their

personal and therefore " real " lives? They are entertaining us, not showing

us who they are (at least not always--Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison, as

possible exceptions come to mind). For all we know Mick Jagger is really

Michael Phillip Jagger, who originally went to college studying economics.

Also we seldom see Jagger in public when he is not performing. Dare we

conclude he is a homebody?

 

And finally, we do have to view the birth time as somewhat suspect. What

astrologer would accept such a time as 6:30 a.m. without some suspicion

that it is rounded off at least? Perhaps it is given as a way of saying

that he was born " around " sunrise. When is sunrise in Dartford in late

July? All that is needed for a Leo Ascendent is for the clock to turn ca.

44 minutes. Well this is enough speculation. Suffice it to say that I am

definitely *trying* is be a Siderealist! :-)

 

But to turn now to my own chart (which is the chart of a person I know best

<g>), under the Tropical system, I used to be a Sun in Cancer (at about

11`), with Moon in late Taurus (25`) and Ascendent even later (29`50'

Taurus). There is a rather conspicuous stellium in Gemini involving

Uranus, Venus and Mercury (all betw. 28`-29`). Pluto and Saturn are

conjunct broadly in the Fourth, with Pluto closely conjunct the IC, both in

Leo. Mars is at 23` Virgo in the Fifth with a Libran Neptune square the

Sun exactly. And Jupiter brings up the rear at 22` Sagittarius on the cusp

of the Eighth House.

 

When I began to consider the Sidereal system, some one month ago, I

naturally focused on the change of my Sun Sign from Cancer to Gemini. This

made alot of sense to me since I am very geminean in many ways. Previously

I had attributed this distinct geminean quality to the stellium, and the

possibility that I was born 1 minute later, and thus had Gemini rising.

The Taurean Ascendent and Moon stayed in Taurus due to their lateness in

the Sign. The Pluto/Saturn duo moved to Cancer, which could then explain

why I am so Cancerian, for a Gemini. The IC/Fourth House is that of the

home (and natural house of Cancer), and I am the supreme homebody, most of

the time. But I love to travel! With Pluto conjunct the Nadir I gain my

deepest source of strength from home. Mars moves from Virgo to the last

degree of Leo, which really explains alot! I have a very pugnacious side

and I also have many recreations.

 

But! what really provided me with a great deal of insight into the whole

excercise was when I turned my attention to the Jupiter. In the Tropical

system my Jupiter is, as mentioned, at 22 Sag. When converted to Sidereal

it moved to Scorpio. I was curious as to what difference there might be in

the interpretation of Jupiter in Sag vs. Scorpio. So I got out my little

book by Karen Hamaker-Zondag, " Planetary Symbolism in the Horoscope " . I

read up on Jupiter in both signs. To my surprise I found the descriptions

somewhat similar, but there was a real difference nonetheless.

 

An example: Jupiter in Sagittarius. " (A) search for a more comprehensive

picture of the cosmos inclines the person with Jupiter in Sag. to develop a

vision by which he will do his level best to live...The Jovian Sagittarian

is happiest when producing from within an all-embracing and idealistic

world-view in which every fact and phenomenon has its relationships and its

proper place " In addition Drs. Hamaker refers directly to the urge with

this placement for the native to be interested in religion and metaphysic.

Jupiter in Scorpio. " ...the normal expansive influence of Jupiter in

material things is often deferred...In a need for enlargement, the native

absorbs personal experiences deep down. He works not in length but in

depth and, during the span of a human life, can acquire great inner

wisdom " . I really related to this. Drs. Hamaker goes on to say, " The fact

that Scorpio is one of the water signs suggests that the native will be

interested in psychological matters and will want to gain an insight into

the motivations of self and others and finally into the meaning of life

itself. Spiritual and religious values are formed along these lines " .

 

So, although, both Scorpio and Sagittarius bestow an interest in religious,

spiritual and psychological matters, they approach these matters in a

different way. I find that the paradigm represented by Scorpio fits me

much better with regard to my Jupiter. I can go very, very deeply into the

inner world where I easily travel as far a distance as the typical

globe-trotting Sagittarian does on the surface of the world.

 

Now even though my Jupiter is in an opposition to the Gemini stellium of

planets, and square Mars as well, I still feel that it is easier to

" isolate " Jupiter in my chart in such a way that it becomes a fair

indicator of how Sidereal and Tropical might diverge in my own

spirito-psychology.

 

All for now, Breck

********************

[Guest guest]

Happy New Year, everyone!

 

In a message dated 99-12-31 16:00:54 EST breck (Breck

Breckenridge) writes:

 

> For all we know Mick Jagger is really Michael Phillip Jagger,

> who originally went to college studying economics.

> Also we seldom see Jagger in public when he is not performing. Dare we

> conclude he is a homebody?

 

A few weeks prior to Breck's introduction of Mick Jagger's chart into this

discussion, the E! Channel did a story on his stormy relationship with Jerry

Hall. It seems that when Mick was home, he was the archetypical Cancerian

father and husband -- but only when he was at home. Touring, however, was

another story, and Mick's getting a young Brazilian woman pregnant was the

last straw for Jerry.

 

Later,

Kevin/Baraka

 

PS -- The new _The Mountain Astrologer_ is out, and it features a

Siderealist's take on Jesse Ventura's natal chart, solar and lunar returns

for the year and month of his election, and the day the _Playboy_ interview

came out. Seems that like Mick Jagger and Jimmy Page, Jesse's chart includes

the Venus-Mars-Uranus interaction -- K/B