1941 Gutka contradiction : Tentative solution

[Guest guest]

Respected members,

 

I had pointed out a contradiction in the original Urdu edition of 1941 gutka. The matter had been on the board for a couple of days. Kulbir bhai and Girish Raheja ji had made a few suggestions. We at Aligarh too had given a very serious thought to this contradiction.

 

Summarizing the situation:

 

[ 1 ] Saturn + Venus combination any where in a Janma Kundali can not be aspected by the Sun. It is not astronomically possible. Therefore this situation can never arise in a Janma Kundali.

 

[ 2 ] This is possible only in a Varsh Phal kundali. Since the results enumerated for the above mentioned planetary placement are life time results, they can not be delineated from a Varsh Phal kundali. Therefore the planetary placement is meant for a Janma Kundali and not for one year duration Varsh Phal kundali.

 

[ 3 ] This planetary placement can also occur in a Janma Kundali cast on the basis of the palm prints. What if the analysis based on the kundali through the palm prints doesn’t agree with the Janma Kundali cast through the birth data ? In that case our view is that the credence be given to the analysis based on the Janma kundali cast through the birth data. Thus a kundali cast through the palm prints becomes a secondary source more in the nature of a verification tool instead of being the primary tool.

 

The contradiction is not confined to the 1941 gutka alone. The contradiction is further carried forward into the 1942 edition and the 1952 edition also.

 

Here are the details of this contradiction carried through the Lal Kitab :

 

 

1941 Gutka :

 

Page 283 lines 1-2

 

Dono ko sooraj dekhe : sanichar ka purjor bura asar, maut purdard hogi

 

Page 283/4 lines 13-15+

 

Khana 4 :

 

Dono # 4 aur suraj #10 : nihayat purdard maut hove, nihayat kareebi ristedar karobar mein shamil hokar ya vaise hi uska dhan kha pee jayenge.

 

Page 284 lines 9-12

 

Dono # 10 aur sooraj # 4 : sanichar ka bura asar na hoga balki jaydad banegi . maut bhi purdard na hogi, balki lambi umra hogi, naqad rupia paisa beshak kam hi hove.

 

 

1942 edition :

 

Page 295 lines 19-20

 

Dono mushtarqa ko sooraj dekhe : shanishchar ka bura asar nihayat zor se hoga, maut purdard hogi.

 

295/6

Line 26

 

Khana # 4

dono 4 suraj 10 } nihayat purdard aur sakht maut hogi

 

Page 296 : lines 14-15

 

Dono # 10 sooraj 4 } : Shanishchar ka bura asar na hoga, balki jaydad banegi, maut bhi purdard na hogi , balki lambi umra hogi, naqad rupia beshak kam hi hove.

 

 

1952 edition :

 

Page 865 : lines 11 â€" 13

 

Khana # 10

 

Umra lambi hogi, jaydad banegi, aur maut bhi koi dukhiya halat mein na hogi, naqad rupia beshak itana jyada na ho --- suraj khana # 4

 

Page 866 line # 8-10

 

Mandi halat :

 

Shanishchar ka bura asar bahut zor se hoga, maut purdard hogi. --- } dono ko suraj dekhe

 

Tentative suggestion from the Aligarh group:

 

This is just a suggestion and not a verdict and that too is tentative which will hold good till some other Lal Kitab scholar comes up with a better alternative. The two step solution is :

 

[ A ] The blanket statement contained in line 1 & 2 on page 283 of 1941 Gutka :[ Dono ko sooraj dekhe : sanichar ka pujor bura asar, maut purdard hogi.] be dropped or deleted altogether not only from the 1941 gutka but from the subsequent editions also.

 

[ B ] Since this planetary placement is not possible in a Janma kundali unless the Sun is removed from the combination.

 

Therefore the Sun and the Mercury can not be a part of this combination. Mercury, for astronomical reasons, also can not be in a position to aspect or be aspected by Venus + Saturn combination. Therefore both the Sun and the Mercury get eliminated.

 

Of the remaining three planets viz. Moon, Mars and Jupiter, to our mind Moon could best fit into the combination.

 

After the blanket statement of line 1 & 2 page 283 of 1941 gutka is dropped, and if the Moon is substituted for the Sun, the equation would then read :

 

Dono # 4 aur chander #10 : nihayat purdard maut hove, nihayat kareebi ristedar karobar mein shamil hokar ya vaise hi uska dhan kha pee jayenge.

 

This is possible because Saturn and Venus placed in the 4th house will be on a hostile territory and the Moon in the 10 will not only be on a hostile territory but it will also be under the aspect of two hostile planets.

 

Dono # 10 aur Chander # 4 : sanichar ka bura asar na hoga balki jaydad banegi . maut bhi purdard na hogi, balki lambi umra hogi, naqad rupia paisa beshak kam hi hove.

 

In this case the Venus and the Saturn will be on their home ground and so will be the Moon. The aspect of the moon on the Venus and the Saturn could not be cruel such that it could cause purdard maut.

 

Other scholars are welcome to suggest better fully justified alternative:

 

Regards,

 

Varun Trivedi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Respected Varun ji,

 

Thank you very much for the solution. I had also thought of the

same. In this situation only moon can be accepted. Mars and the

Jupiter may not have been acceptable. Please accept our gratitude

for the entire Aligarh group to have done a great service for the

serious learners of the Lal Kitab.

 

With respect,

 

Girish Raheja

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " varun_trvd "

<varun_trvd wrote:

>

>

> Respected members,

>

>

>

> I had pointed out a contradiction in the original Urdu edition of

1941

> gutka. The matter had been on the board for a couple of days.

Kulbir

> bhai and Girish Raheja ji had made a few suggestions. We at

Aligarh too

> had given a very serious thought to this contradiction.

>

>

>

> Summarizing the situation:

>

>

>

> [ 1 ] Saturn + Venus combination any where in a Janma Kundali can

not be

> aspected by the Sun. It is not astronomically possible. Therefore

this

> situation can never arise in a Janma Kundali.

>

>

>

> [ 2 ] This is possible only in a Varsh Phal kundali. Since the

results

> enumerated for the above mentioned planetary placement are life

time

> results, they can not be delineated from a Varsh Phal kundali.

Therefore

> the planetary placement is meant for a Janma Kundali and not for

one

> year duration Varsh Phal kundali.

>

>

>

> [ 3 ] This planetary placement can also occur in a Janma Kundali

cast on

> the basis of the palm prints. What if the analysis based on the

kundali

> through the palm prints doesn’t agree with the Janma Kundali cast

> through the birth data ? In that case our view is that the

credence be

> given to the analysis based on the Janma kundali cast through the

birth

> data. Thus a kundali cast through the palm prints becomes a

secondary

> source more in the nature of a verification tool instead of being

the

> primary tool.

>

>

>

> The contradiction is not confined to the 1941 gutka alone. The

> contradiction is further carried forward into the 1942 edition and

the

> 1952 edition also.

>

>

>

> Here are the details of this contradiction carried through the Lal

Kitab

> :

>

>

>

>

>

> 1941 Gutka :

>

>

>

> Page 283 lines 1-2

>

>

>

> Dono ko sooraj dekhe : sanichar ka purjor bura asar, maut purdard

hogi

>

>

>

> Page 283/4 lines 13-15+

>

>

>

> Khana 4 :

>

>

>

> Dono # 4 aur suraj #10 : nihayat purdard maut hove, nihayat kareebi

> ristedar karobar mein shamil hokar ya vaise hi uska dhan kha pee

> jayenge.

>

>

>

> Page 284 lines 9-12

>

>

>

> Dono # 10 aur sooraj # 4 : sanichar ka bura asar na hoga balki

jaydad

> banegi . maut bhi purdard na hogi, balki lambi umra hogi, naqad

rupia

> paisa beshak kam hi hove.

>

>

>

>

>

> 1942 edition :

>

>

>

> Page 295 lines 19-20

>

>

>

> Dono mushtarqa ko sooraj dekhe : shanishchar ka bura asar nihayat

zor

> se hoga, maut purdard hogi.

>

>

>

> 295/6

>

> Line 26

>

>

>

> Khana # 4

>

> dono 4 suraj 10 } nihayat purdard aur sakht maut hogi

>

>

>

> Page 296 : lines 14-15

>

>

>

> Dono # 10 sooraj 4 } : Shanishchar ka bura asar na hoga, balki

jaydad

> banegi, maut bhi purdard na hogi , balki lambi umra hogi, naqad

rupia

> beshak kam hi hove.

>

>

>

>

>

> 1952 edition :

>

>

>

> Page 865 : lines 11 …quot; 13

>

>

>

> Khana # 10

>

>

>

> Umra lambi hogi, jaydad banegi, aur maut bhi koi dukhiya halat

mein na

> hogi, naqad rupia beshak itana jyada na ho --- suraj khana # 4

>

>

>

> Page 866 line # 8-10

>

>

>

> Mandi halat :

>

>

>

> Shanishchar ka bura asar bahut zor se hoga, maut purdard hogi. ---

}

> dono ko suraj dekhe

>

>

>

> Tentative suggestion from the Aligarh group:

>

>

>

> This is just a suggestion and not a verdict and that too is

tentative

> which will hold good till some other Lal Kitab scholar comes up

with a

> better alternative. The two step solution is :

>

>

>

> [ A ] The blanket statement contained in line 1 & 2 on page 283 of

1941

> Gutka :[ Dono ko sooraj dekhe : sanichar ka pujor bura asar, maut

> purdard hogi.] be dropped or deleted altogether not only from the

1941

> gutka but from the subsequent editions also.

>

>

>

> [ B ] Since this planetary placement is not possible in a Janma

kundali

> unless the Sun is removed from the combination.

>

>

>

> Therefore the Sun and the Mercury can not be a part of this

combination.

> Mercury, for astronomical reasons, also can not be in a position to

> aspect or be aspected by Venus + Saturn combination. Therefore

both the

> Sun and the Mercury get eliminated.

>

>

>

> Of the remaining three planets viz. Moon, Mars and Jupiter, to our

mind

> Moon could best fit into the combination.

>

>

>

> After the blanket statement of line 1 & 2 page 283 of 1941 gutka is

> dropped, and if the Moon is substituted for the Sun, the equation

would

> then read :

>

>

>

> Dono # 4 aur chander #10 : nihayat purdard maut hove, nihayat

kareebi

> ristedar karobar mein shamil hokar ya vaise hi uska dhan kha pee

> jayenge.

>

>

>

> This is possible because Saturn and Venus placed in the 4th house

will

> be on a hostile territory and the Moon in the 10 will not only be

on a

> hostile territory but it will also be under the aspect of two

hostile

> planets.

>

>

>

> Dono # 10 aur Chander # 4 : sanichar ka bura asar na hoga balki

jaydad

> banegi . maut bhi purdard na hogi, balki lambi umra hogi, naqad

rupia

> paisa beshak kam hi hove.

>

>

>

> In this case the Venus and the Saturn will be on their home ground

and

> so will be the Moon. The aspect of the moon on the Venus and the

Saturn

> could not be cruel such that it could cause purdard maut.

>

>

>

> Other scholars are welcome to suggest better fully justified

> alternative:

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

>

>

> Varun Trivedi

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Varun ji,

 

I agree that the results predicted for this situation can not be

that of a varshphal kundali. If by chance in any one year venus and

Saturn come together in the fourth house and an enemy planet in the

tenth then to declare that the person will die a torturous death

will not be realistic. Such predictions can be made only through a

Janmakundali. Therefore I agree that the book is talking about the

janmakundali situation and not a varshphal kundali situation.

 

Sincerely,

 

HS Gill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " girish_raheja "

<girish_raheja wrote:

>

> Respected Varun ji,

>

> Thank you very much for the solution. I had also thought of the

> same. In this situation only moon can be accepted. Mars and the

> Jupiter may not have been acceptable. Please accept our gratitude

> for the entire Aligarh group to have done a great service for the

> serious learners of the Lal Kitab.

>

> With respect,

>

> Girish Raheja

>

>

>

>

>

, " varun_trvd "

> <varun_trvd@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Respected members,

> >

> >

> >

> > I had pointed out a contradiction in the original Urdu edition

of

> 1941

> > gutka. The matter had been on the board for a couple of days.

> Kulbir

> > bhai and Girish Raheja ji had made a few suggestions. We at

> Aligarh too

> > had given a very serious thought to this contradiction.

> >

> >

> >

> > Summarizing the situation:

> >

> >

> >

> > [ 1 ] Saturn + Venus combination any where in a Janma Kundali

can

> not be

> > aspected by the Sun. It is not astronomically possible.

Therefore

> this

> > situation can never arise in a Janma Kundali.

> >

> >

> >

> > [ 2 ] This is possible only in a Varsh Phal kundali. Since the

> results

> > enumerated for the above mentioned planetary placement are life

> time

> > results, they can not be delineated from a Varsh Phal kundali.

> Therefore

> > the planetary placement is meant for a Janma Kundali and not for

> one

> > year duration Varsh Phal kundali.

> >

> >

> >

> > [ 3 ] This planetary placement can also occur in a Janma Kundali

> cast on

> > the basis of the palm prints. What if the analysis based on the

> kundali

> > through the palm prints doesn’t agree with the Janma Kundali cast

> > through the birth data ? In that case our view is that the

> credence be

> > given to the analysis based on the Janma kundali cast through

the

> birth

> > data. Thus a kundali cast through the palm prints becomes a

> secondary

> > source more in the nature of a verification tool instead of

being

> the

> > primary tool.

> >

> >

> >

> > The contradiction is not confined to the 1941 gutka alone. The

> > contradiction is further carried forward into the 1942 edition

and

> the

> > 1952 edition also.

> >

> >

> >

> > Here are the details of this contradiction carried through the

Lal

> Kitab

> > :

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > 1941 Gutka :

> >

> >

> >

> > Page 283 lines 1-2

> >

> >

> >

> > Dono ko sooraj dekhe : sanichar ka purjor bura asar, maut

purdard

> hogi

> >

> >

> >

> > Page 283/4 lines 13-15+

> >

> >

> >

> > Khana 4 :

> >

> >

> >

> > Dono # 4 aur suraj #10 : nihayat purdard maut hove, nihayat

kareebi

> > ristedar karobar mein shamil hokar ya vaise hi uska dhan kha pee

> > jayenge.

> >

> >

> >

> > Page 284 lines 9-12

> >

> >

> >

> > Dono # 10 aur sooraj # 4 : sanichar ka bura asar na hoga balki

> jaydad

> > banegi . maut bhi purdard na hogi, balki lambi umra hogi, naqad

> rupia

> > paisa beshak kam hi hove.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > 1942 edition :

> >

> >

> >

> > Page 295 lines 19-20

> >

> >

> >

> > Dono mushtarqa ko sooraj dekhe : shanishchar ka bura asar

nihayat

> zor

> > se hoga, maut purdard hogi.

> >

> >

> >

> > 295/6

> >

> > Line 26

> >

> >

> >

> > Khana # 4

> >

> > dono 4 suraj 10 } nihayat purdard aur sakht maut hogi

> >

> >

> >

> > Page 296 : lines 14-15

> >

> >

> >

> > Dono # 10 sooraj 4 } : Shanishchar ka bura asar na hoga, balki

> jaydad

> > banegi, maut bhi purdard na hogi , balki lambi umra hogi, naqad

> rupia

> > beshak kam hi hove.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > 1952 edition :

> >

> >

> >

> > Page 865 : lines 11 …quot; 13

> >

> >

> >

> > Khana # 10

> >

> >

> >

> > Umra lambi hogi, jaydad banegi, aur maut bhi koi dukhiya halat

> mein na

> > hogi, naqad rupia beshak itana jyada na ho --- suraj khana # 4

> >

> >

> >

> > Page 866 line # 8-10

> >

> >

> >

> > Mandi halat :

> >

> >

> >

> > Shanishchar ka bura asar bahut zor se hoga, maut purdard hogi. --

-

> }

> > dono ko suraj dekhe

> >

> >

> >

> > Tentative suggestion from the Aligarh group:

> >

> >

> >

> > This is just a suggestion and not a verdict and that too is

> tentative

> > which will hold good till some other Lal Kitab scholar comes up

> with a

> > better alternative. The two step solution is :

> >

> >

> >

> > [ A ] The blanket statement contained in line 1 & 2 on page 283

of

> 1941

> > Gutka :[ Dono ko sooraj dekhe : sanichar ka pujor bura asar, maut

> > purdard hogi.] be dropped or deleted altogether not only from

the

> 1941

> > gutka but from the subsequent editions also.

> >

> >

> >

> > [ B ] Since this planetary placement is not possible in a Janma

> kundali

> > unless the Sun is removed from the combination.

> >

> >

> >

> > Therefore the Sun and the Mercury can not be a part of this

> combination.

> > Mercury, for astronomical reasons, also can not be in a position

to

> > aspect or be aspected by Venus + Saturn combination. Therefore

> both the

> > Sun and the Mercury get eliminated.

> >

> >

> >

> > Of the remaining three planets viz. Moon, Mars and Jupiter, to

our

> mind

> > Moon could best fit into the combination.

> >

> >

> >

> > After the blanket statement of line 1 & 2 page 283 of 1941 gutka

is

> > dropped, and if the Moon is substituted for the Sun, the

equation

> would

> > then read :

> >

> >

> >

> > Dono # 4 aur chander #10 : nihayat purdard maut hove, nihayat

> kareebi

> > ristedar karobar mein shamil hokar ya vaise hi uska dhan kha pee

> > jayenge.

> >

> >

> >

> > This is possible because Saturn and Venus placed in the 4th

house

> will

> > be on a hostile territory and the Moon in the 10 will not only

be

> on a

> > hostile territory but it will also be under the aspect of two

> hostile

> > planets.

> >

> >

> >

> > Dono # 10 aur Chander # 4 : sanichar ka bura asar na hoga balki

> jaydad

> > banegi . maut bhi purdard na hogi, balki lambi umra hogi, naqad

> rupia

> > paisa beshak kam hi hove.

> >

> >

> >

> > In this case the Venus and the Saturn will be on their home

ground

> and

> > so will be the Moon. The aspect of the moon on the Venus and the

> Saturn

> > could not be cruel such that it could cause purdard maut.

> >

> >

> >

> > Other scholars are welcome to suggest better fully justified

> > alternative:

> >

> >

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> >

> >

> > Varun Trivedi

> >

>