Guest guest Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Varun ji; at www.ebazm.com i found Ganiim-e-shahar to mean City's Enemy so " Jaydad jaddi ka vo ghaneem hoga " can be safely concluded as jadi jayedad ka dushman. kulbirbance , " varun_trvd " <varun_trvd wrote: > > Respected Yograj ji, > > I pointed out the word `ghaneem' because if it means `lutera' one > who robs others or usurper then the meaning of these lines changes > altogether and then will be contrary to what has been intentioned in > the 1952 edition. > > The 1941, page 91 line # 8 [ your edition ] for moon in 12th : > > Jaydad jaddi ka vo ghaneem hoga > Nau man loha har ghari afeem hoga > > The same lines occur in 1942 ed on page # 142 line # 21 [ second > part] > > If the word `ghaneem' is taken to mean `lutera' one who robs others > then the line would mean ` a person with moon in the 12th will be an > usurper of ancestral property' or in other words he will rob others > of their share of the ancestral property ' jaddi jayadad ka lutne > wala' > > Where as in the 1952 edition it appears to be the reverse of it: > > " ujaar kheti jageer naseeba, afeem khate le satharaa vo " . > > He will destroy his lands, property and his luck. In other words ` > apani kheti jageer ko lutaa de'. He is taken to be a `lutaane wala' > and not `lutne wala'. Because if he is a `lutne wala' then he will > accumulate lands and jageer and not `ujaro it' destroy it. > > It was with this in my mind when I drew your attention to this > word `ghaneem' > > It is a great privilege that we have some one of your knowledge and > dedication to get things sorted out in their correct perspective. > Hope we have more of such in depth insights into the Lal Kitab. > > With great regards, > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Yograj Prabhakar " > <yr_prabhakar@> wrote: > > > > Dear Varun Jee > > > > Yes, it was a typing error in the example I quoted, it was from > > LK-1941. Thanks for bringing it to my notice. Further, Exact > lexicon > > meaning of Ghaneem is Lutera, rest assured. > > > > So long your interpretation of the whole sentence is concerned, it > > seems logical and corrrect beyond any doubt, provided the actual > word > > is Sathara. > > > > Actually, being a punjabi/Urdu writer and poet I never came across > the > > word Sathara so far, I could not found it in any dictionary (Urdu > to > > hindi/punjabi or Persian to Hindi/Punjabi or popular Urdu/Persian > > words used in Punjabi language). This word is not used in the local > > dialects of Malwa region of Punjab where I am living or in the > Doaba > > belt where Pt. ji were born and my parents belongs, that is why > > Sathara Lafz kucch hazm nahi ho rahi hai. Or perhaps the absence > of > > " Pesh on Seen " ( " Sa " ke oopar " U " ki matra) Is confusing one of > us. I > > am a bit skeptical, because Pesh is missing on numerous words in > Lal > > kitab, Anyways, I will comment once I got a satisfactory > explanation. > > > > Respectfully > > Yograj Prabhakar > > > > , " varun_trvd " > > <varun_trvd@> wrote: > > > > > > Respected Yograj ji, > > > > > > The line under discussion reads, > > > > > > " ujaad kheti jaageer naseeba , afeem khaate le sathraa vo " [ > page > > > 420 note # 3; 1952 ed] > > > > > > The word as spelled in the book is `sa-tha-raa' and not ` su- tha- > > > raa' > > > > > > The line to me means: > > > > > > After having destroyed his land [ kheti], his property [ > jaageer] > > > and his luck [ naseeb] , he will be driven to his death bed [ > > > satharaa ] after taking opium or in other words he will be left > with > > > no option but to commit suicide after taking opium, or in other > > > words he will be driven to a state of desperation. In a way it > > > amounts to saying that Apana sab kucch barbaad karne ke bad > afeem > > > kha kar satharaa par letne ke alawa koi chara nahi bachega. > > > > > > Here the word `satharaa' is used as an object in the sentence – > vo > > > kya le? vo satharaa le. The word 'satharaa' is neither used as > an > > > adjective nor as a subject. > > > > > > Therefore I am not quite convinced that `satharaa' could mean > any > > > thing else but a death bed. > > > > > > ` afeem khate le sathara vo' is an idiomatic expression and > should > > > not be taken literally. > > > > > > If the word `khate' is taken to mean ledger then Pandit ji would > > > have written ` khata-e-afeem' and 'sutharaa in place of > satharaa'. > > > The line then would have been 'kahta-e-afeem se ho suthara vo' > and > > > would have meant that for the sake of afeem he will give away > every > > > thing and become a 'sutharaa'; assuming that such a person will > be > > > an opium addict. This again doesn't sound correct either. > > > > > > Incidentally the line you have quoted from page 91 line #8 is > from > > > 1941 edition. By mistake it has been typed as from 1942 ed. The > same > > > line that you have quoted occurs on page 142 line # 21 in the > 1942 > > > edition. > > > > > > Secondly I looked up the meaning of the word `ghaneem' in the > > > glossary given at the end of your 1941 edition. It is said to > mean ` > > > lutera' where as I think it should mean `lutaane wala'. These > two > > > meanings are just opposite of each other. Could you please check > > > that out. > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Yograj Prabhakar > > > <yr_prabhakar@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Kulbir jee > > > > > > > > Exact text is as follows: > > > > > > > > " Paani Baadal Mein Bhar Kar Jatla, Ret maidano bhartaa ho > > > > Ujaad Kheti, Jageer Nasseba, Khatey Afeem Le Suthraa woh. " > > > > (LK-1952, Page 420, line no. 7-8) > > > > > > > > Yani ki Apni saari Jaydaad, karobaar vagairah Nashey Pattey > ki > > > buri aadat main Ujaad dene wala suthra (la-parwah insaan) insaan > > > hoga. like " Battey Khatey " (jahan par recovery ki gunjayash > khatam > > > ho chuki ho) in punjabi, yahan par bhi Khatey se Murad Account > hi > > > hai. Perhaps the example from LK-1942 Page 91 line 08 will give > you > > > a more clear idea about Jaydaad/Jageer and afeem: > > > > > > > > Jaydaad Jaddee ka to woh Ghaneem Hoga, > > > > nau man Loha har Ghadee Afeem hoga....... > > > > > > > > God bless you always. > > > > Yograj Prabhakar > > > > > > > > kulbirbance <kulbirbainz@> > wrote: > > > Varun ji, > > > > > > > > i am having some difficulty in understanding these lines > > > > page 422 apprx. 1952 > > > > PAANI BAADAL ME BHAR JAR JALTA; REIT MAIDANO MARTA HO. > > > > UJJAD KHETI JAGIR NASEEBA; AFEEM KHAV LE SUDHRA HO. > > > > DOODH DAULAT PAAR PANI DETA; NARAK CHANDRA GHAR DOLTA HO. > > > > KARM DHARM BAITH CHANDAL SAAYA, MAAN IZZAT KUL PHOONKTA HO. > > > > are these lines correct as per urdu edition. > > > > particular concern is about AFEEM KHAV LE SUDHRA HO. > > > > > > > > thanks and regards > > > > > > > > kulbir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > > > Mobile. 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