Guest guest Posted March 5, 2008 Report Share Posted March 5, 2008 Respected Yograj ji, The line under discussion reads, " ujaad kheti jaageer naseeba , afeem khaate le sathraa vo " [ page 420 note # 3; 1952 ed] The word as spelled in the book is `sa-tha-raa' and not ` su-tha- raa' The line to me means: After having destroyed his land [ kheti], his property [ jaageer] and his luck [ naseeb] , he will be driven to his death bed [ satharaa ] after taking opium or in other words he will be left with no option but to commit suicide after taking opium, or in other words he will be driven to a state of desperation. In a way it amounts to saying that Apana sab kucch barbaad karne ke bad afeem kha kar satharaa par letne ke alawa koi chara nahi bachega. Here the word `satharaa' is used as an object in the sentence – vo kya le? vo satharaa le. The word 'satharaa' is neither used as an adjective nor as a subject. Therefore I am not quite convinced that `satharaa' could mean any thing else but a death bed. ` afeem khate le sathara vo' is an idiomatic expression and should not be taken literally. If the word `khate' is taken to mean ledger then Pandit ji would have written ` khata-e-afeem' and 'sutharaa in place of satharaa'. The line then would have been 'kahta-e-afeem se ho suthara vo' and would have meant that for the sake of afeem he will give away every thing and become a 'sutharaa'; assuming that such a person will be an opium addict. This again doesn't sound correct either. Incidentally the line you have quoted from page 91 line #8 is from 1941 edition. By mistake it has been typed as from 1942 ed. The same line that you have quoted occurs on page 142 line # 21 in the 1942 edition. Secondly I looked up the meaning of the word `ghaneem' in the glossary given at the end of your 1941 edition. It is said to mean ` lutera' where as I think it should mean `lutaane wala'. These two meanings are just opposite of each other. Could you please check that out. With regards, Varun Trivedi , Yograj Prabhakar <yr_prabhakar wrote: > > Dear Kulbir jee > > Exact text is as follows: > > " Paani Baadal Mein Bhar Kar Jatla, Ret maidano bhartaa ho > Ujaad Kheti, Jageer Nasseba, Khatey Afeem Le Suthraa woh. " > (LK-1952, Page 420, line no. 7-8) > > Yani ki Apni saari Jaydaad, karobaar vagairah Nashey Pattey ki buri aadat main Ujaad dene wala suthra (la-parwah insaan) insaan hoga. like " Battey Khatey " (jahan par recovery ki gunjayash khatam ho chuki ho) in punjabi, yahan par bhi Khatey se Murad Account hi hai. Perhaps the example from LK-1942 Page 91 line 08 will give you a more clear idea about Jaydaad/Jageer and afeem: > > Jaydaad Jaddee ka to woh Ghaneem Hoga, > nau man Loha har Ghadee Afeem hoga....... > > God bless you always. > Yograj Prabhakar > > kulbirbance <kulbirbainz wrote: Varun ji, > > i am having some difficulty in understanding these lines > page 422 apprx. 1952 > PAANI BAADAL ME BHAR JAR JALTA; REIT MAIDANO MARTA HO. > UJJAD KHETI JAGIR NASEEBA; AFEEM KHAV LE SUDHRA HO. > DOODH DAULAT PAAR PANI DETA; NARAK CHANDRA GHAR DOLTA HO. > KARM DHARM BAITH CHANDAL SAAYA, MAAN IZZAT KUL PHOONKTA HO. > are these lines correct as per urdu edition. > particular concern is about AFEEM KHAV LE SUDHRA HO. > > thanks and regards > > kulbir > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Dear Varun Jee Yes, it was a typing error in the example I quoted, it was from LK-1941. Thanks for bringing it to my notice. Further, Exact lexicon meaning of Ghaneem is Lutera, rest assured. So long your interpretation of the whole sentence is concerned, it seems logical and corrrect beyond any doubt, provided the actual word is Sathara. Actually, being a punjabi/Urdu writer and poet I never came across the word Sathara so far, I could not found it in any dictionary (Urdu to hindi/punjabi or Persian to Hindi/Punjabi or popular Urdu/Persian words used in Punjabi language). This word is not used in the local dialects of Malwa region of Punjab where I am living or in the Doaba belt where Pt. ji were born and my parents belongs, that is why Sathara Lafz kucch hazm nahi ho rahi hai. Or perhaps the absence of " Pesh on Seen " ( " Sa " ke oopar " U " ki matra) Is confusing one of us. I am a bit skeptical, because Pesh is missing on numerous words in Lal kitab, Anyways, I will comment once I got a satisfactory explanation. Respectfully Yograj Prabhakar , " varun_trvd " <varun_trvd wrote: > > Respected Yograj ji, > > The line under discussion reads, > > " ujaad kheti jaageer naseeba , afeem khaate le sathraa vo " [ page > 420 note # 3; 1952 ed] > > The word as spelled in the book is `sa-tha-raa' and not ` su-tha- > raa' > > The line to me means: > > After having destroyed his land [ kheti], his property [ jaageer] > and his luck [ naseeb] , he will be driven to his death bed [ > satharaa ] after taking opium or in other words he will be left with > no option but to commit suicide after taking opium, or in other > words he will be driven to a state of desperation. In a way it > amounts to saying that Apana sab kucch barbaad karne ke bad afeem > kha kar satharaa par letne ke alawa koi chara nahi bachega. > > Here the word `satharaa' is used as an object in the sentence – vo > kya le? vo satharaa le. The word 'satharaa' is neither used as an > adjective nor as a subject. > > Therefore I am not quite convinced that `satharaa' could mean any > thing else but a death bed. > > ` afeem khate le sathara vo' is an idiomatic expression and should > not be taken literally. > > If the word `khate' is taken to mean ledger then Pandit ji would > have written ` khata-e-afeem' and 'sutharaa in place of satharaa'. > The line then would have been 'kahta-e-afeem se ho suthara vo' and > would have meant that for the sake of afeem he will give away every > thing and become a 'sutharaa'; assuming that such a person will be > an opium addict. This again doesn't sound correct either. > > Incidentally the line you have quoted from page 91 line #8 is from > 1941 edition. By mistake it has been typed as from 1942 ed. The same > line that you have quoted occurs on page 142 line # 21 in the 1942 > edition. > > Secondly I looked up the meaning of the word `ghaneem' in the > glossary given at the end of your 1941 edition. It is said to mean ` > lutera' where as I think it should mean `lutaane wala'. These two > meanings are just opposite of each other. Could you please check > that out. > > With regards, > > Varun Trivedi > > > > , Yograj Prabhakar > <yr_prabhakar@> wrote: > > > > Dear Kulbir jee > > > > Exact text is as follows: > > > > " Paani Baadal Mein Bhar Kar Jatla, Ret maidano bhartaa ho > > Ujaad Kheti, Jageer Nasseba, Khatey Afeem Le Suthraa woh. " > > (LK-1952, Page 420, line no. 7-8) > > > > Yani ki Apni saari Jaydaad, karobaar vagairah Nashey Pattey ki > buri aadat main Ujaad dene wala suthra (la-parwah insaan) insaan > hoga. like " Battey Khatey " (jahan par recovery ki gunjayash khatam > ho chuki ho) in punjabi, yahan par bhi Khatey se Murad Account hi > hai. Perhaps the example from LK-1942 Page 91 line 08 will give you > a more clear idea about Jaydaad/Jageer and afeem: > > > > Jaydaad Jaddee ka to woh Ghaneem Hoga, > > nau man Loha har Ghadee Afeem hoga....... > > > > God bless you always. > > Yograj Prabhakar > > > > kulbirbance <kulbirbainz@> wrote: > Varun ji, > > > > i am having some difficulty in understanding these lines > > page 422 apprx. 1952 > > PAANI BAADAL ME BHAR JAR JALTA; REIT MAIDANO MARTA HO. > > UJJAD KHETI JAGIR NASEEBA; AFEEM KHAV LE SUDHRA HO. > > DOODH DAULAT PAAR PANI DETA; NARAK CHANDRA GHAR DOLTA HO. > > KARM DHARM BAITH CHANDAL SAAYA, MAAN IZZAT KUL PHOONKTA HO. > > are these lines correct as per urdu edition. > > particular concern is about AFEEM KHAV LE SUDHRA HO. > > > > thanks and regards > > > > kulbir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > Mobile. Try it now. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Respected Yograj ji, I pointed out the word `ghaneem' because if it means `lutera' one who robs others or usurper then the meaning of these lines changes altogether and then will be contrary to what has been intentioned in the 1952 edition. The 1941, page 91 line # 8 [ your edition ] for moon in 12th : Jaydad jaddi ka vo ghaneem hoga Nau man loha har ghari afeem hoga The same lines occur in 1942 ed on page # 142 line # 21 [ second part] If the word `ghaneem' is taken to mean `lutera' one who robs others then the line would mean ` a person with moon in the 12th will be an usurper of ancestral property' or in other words he will rob others of their share of the ancestral property ' jaddi jayadad ka lutne wala' Where as in the 1952 edition it appears to be the reverse of it: " ujaar kheti jageer naseeba, afeem khate le satharaa vo " . He will destroy his lands, property and his luck. In other words ` apani kheti jageer ko lutaa de'. He is taken to be a `lutaane wala' and not `lutne wala'. Because if he is a `lutne wala' then he will accumulate lands and jageer and not `ujaro it' destroy it. It was with this in my mind when I drew your attention to this word `ghaneem' It is a great privilege that we have some one of your knowledge and dedication to get things sorted out in their correct perspective. Hope we have more of such in depth insights into the Lal Kitab. With great regards, Varun Trivedi , " Yograj Prabhakar " <yr_prabhakar wrote: > > Dear Varun Jee > > Yes, it was a typing error in the example I quoted, it was from > LK-1941. Thanks for bringing it to my notice. Further, Exact lexicon > meaning of Ghaneem is Lutera, rest assured. > > So long your interpretation of the whole sentence is concerned, it > seems logical and corrrect beyond any doubt, provided the actual word > is Sathara. > > Actually, being a punjabi/Urdu writer and poet I never came across the > word Sathara so far, I could not found it in any dictionary (Urdu to > hindi/punjabi or Persian to Hindi/Punjabi or popular Urdu/Persian > words used in Punjabi language). This word is not used in the local > dialects of Malwa region of Punjab where I am living or in the Doaba > belt where Pt. ji were born and my parents belongs, that is why > Sathara Lafz kucch hazm nahi ho rahi hai. Or perhaps the absence of > " Pesh on Seen " ( " Sa " ke oopar " U " ki matra) Is confusing one of us. I > am a bit skeptical, because Pesh is missing on numerous words in Lal > kitab, Anyways, I will comment once I got a satisfactory explanation. > > Respectfully > Yograj Prabhakar > > , " varun_trvd " > <varun_trvd@> wrote: > > > > Respected Yograj ji, > > > > The line under discussion reads, > > > > " ujaad kheti jaageer naseeba , afeem khaate le sathraa vo " [ page > > 420 note # 3; 1952 ed] > > > > The word as spelled in the book is `sa-tha-raa' and not ` su-tha- > > raa' > > > > The line to me means: > > > > After having destroyed his land [ kheti], his property [ jaageer] > > and his luck [ naseeb] , he will be driven to his death bed [ > > satharaa ] after taking opium or in other words he will be left with > > no option but to commit suicide after taking opium, or in other > > words he will be driven to a state of desperation. In a way it > > amounts to saying that Apana sab kucch barbaad karne ke bad afeem > > kha kar satharaa par letne ke alawa koi chara nahi bachega. > > > > Here the word `satharaa' is used as an object in the sentence – vo > > kya le? vo satharaa le. The word 'satharaa' is neither used as an > > adjective nor as a subject. > > > > Therefore I am not quite convinced that `satharaa' could mean any > > thing else but a death bed. > > > > ` afeem khate le sathara vo' is an idiomatic expression and should > > not be taken literally. > > > > If the word `khate' is taken to mean ledger then Pandit ji would > > have written ` khata-e-afeem' and 'sutharaa in place of satharaa'. > > The line then would have been 'kahta-e-afeem se ho suthara vo' and > > would have meant that for the sake of afeem he will give away every > > thing and become a 'sutharaa'; assuming that such a person will be > > an opium addict. This again doesn't sound correct either. > > > > Incidentally the line you have quoted from page 91 line #8 is from > > 1941 edition. By mistake it has been typed as from 1942 ed. The same > > line that you have quoted occurs on page 142 line # 21 in the 1942 > > edition. > > > > Secondly I looked up the meaning of the word `ghaneem' in the > > glossary given at the end of your 1941 edition. It is said to mean ` > > lutera' where as I think it should mean `lutaane wala'. These two > > meanings are just opposite of each other. Could you please check > > that out. > > > > With regards, > > > > Varun Trivedi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Yograj Prabhakar > > <yr_prabhakar@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kulbir jee > > > > > > Exact text is as follows: > > > > > > " Paani Baadal Mein Bhar Kar Jatla, Ret maidano bhartaa ho > > > Ujaad Kheti, Jageer Nasseba, Khatey Afeem Le Suthraa woh. " > > > (LK-1952, Page 420, line no. 7-8) > > > > > > Yani ki Apni saari Jaydaad, karobaar vagairah Nashey Pattey ki > > buri aadat main Ujaad dene wala suthra (la-parwah insaan) insaan > > hoga. like " Battey Khatey " (jahan par recovery ki gunjayash khatam > > ho chuki ho) in punjabi, yahan par bhi Khatey se Murad Account hi > > hai. Perhaps the example from LK-1942 Page 91 line 08 will give you > > a more clear idea about Jaydaad/Jageer and afeem: > > > > > > Jaydaad Jaddee ka to woh Ghaneem Hoga, > > > nau man Loha har Ghadee Afeem hoga....... > > > > > > God bless you always. > > > Yograj Prabhakar > > > > > > kulbirbance <kulbirbainz@> wrote: > > Varun ji, > > > > > > i am having some difficulty in understanding these lines > > > page 422 apprx. 1952 > > > PAANI BAADAL ME BHAR JAR JALTA; REIT MAIDANO MARTA HO. > > > UJJAD KHETI JAGIR NASEEBA; AFEEM KHAV LE SUDHRA HO. > > > DOODH DAULAT PAAR PANI DETA; NARAK CHANDRA GHAR DOLTA HO. > > > KARM DHARM BAITH CHANDAL SAAYA, MAAN IZZAT KUL PHOONKTA HO. > > > are these lines correct as per urdu edition. > > > particular concern is about AFEEM KHAV LE SUDHRA HO. > > > > > > thanks and regards > > > > > > kulbir > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with > > Mobile. Try it now. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 dear Yograjji, could suthra mean 'enunch' or 'namard' as afeem is sometimes also taken as a sex tonic in Malwa. Of course, the word is suthra as there is no 'a' maatra with 's' or 'th'. with best wishes; sincerely, kiranjeet Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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