Guest guest Posted March 3, 2008 Report Share Posted March 3, 2008 Dear kalsi ji, I have answered your comments on my observations within brackets in bold blue letters. I hope Pt. lalkitabee ji will also answer your comments on his observations. Sincerely, Cahndra Prakash Respected Shukla Ji & Tyagi Ji,thanks for for answering my queries.My qerries are in Bold, Tyagi ji Views & yours Endorsement in normal text and only yours View in Italic Blue."I try to put my point view in these factors: Mine is in red Sh.Tyagi's ViewI have tried to answer your questions in the same order you had posed them.I am carrying the debate forward, and if Pt. Lalkitabee ji so wishes he can also join in later, may be to add to what I have said.Here are the answers to your queries :1. In Khana No. 4 it is written that if native has Faaliz or having disease the items of saturn will help him.[ 1 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek.Does not matter in case of Saturn in House no 4, Please refer page 210 line 7 of 1942. [ It is not said in line # 7. It is said in line #10-11 “ uska jism nakara hone ke waqt shani ki cheezon se sehat hogi”. The book further warns that such a person should not get involved in ‘Kabootarbazee of women”. The 1952 ed adds a few more conditions “ sanp ka tel bechne se lavaldi ka sabot milega khwa aulad ke yog lakh uttam hon, isi trah hi sharabnoshi,sanpon ke marvane, rat ke waqt makanon ki buniyad rakhne ki wajah se shani nakara kar liya jaya’. Which means that the Saturn should not be made into a malefic then only the Saturn will help. It was in this context I had said that the Saturn will help so long it is benefic. Therefore it matters whether the Saturn is Nek or Bud ] 2. Saturn is also described here as Khooni mallah. which destroy mamoo khandaan and Jaddi jaydaad.[ 2 ] No. This is not the result of the Saturn in the 4th per se,this will be the result only if the moon is also in the 10th.Yes, it is due to saturn presence in 4th and also due to moon effect for being in 10th. 3. Shani Kisi bhee halat mein tevay waalay kaa bura nahin karega in my view this is the house where saturn has the quality where he help the native in distress/disease even his bite can help the faliz patient to stand and run. Let us apply the rules in saturn 4 illustrated in your reply. Saturn being in 4th is having the realtionship with Moon. as per the above lines in red it become Neech Masnoyi ketu. Saturn has the deep enimity with Sun and ketu halves the sun . Now the point came in mind[ 3 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek. Therefore to say that ` shani kisi bhi halat mein bura nahi karega ` is wrong.Please read my answer to point 1or refer page 210 line 7 of 1942. [ My objection was to your statement “ kisi bhi halat mein” which means under all circumstances. The conditions I have mentioned above make the role of Shani in the 4th subject to certain conditions, therefore it is not correct to say ‘ kisi bhi halat mein’ ] I hope you understand the difference of being with or in the companionship of as against being related through a placement. Simply because the Saturn is in the 4th house, it can not be taken to mean that it is WITH the Moon. A masnuyee exalted Ketu can not be formed unless the Saturn and the Moon are physically together. Masnuyee planet is not formed merely by a planet being placed in a house.As per the properties of houses the effect of owner always be there in his pakka house.. [ But that effect does not get transformed into a masnuyee planet ] 4. How Neech ketu or saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress .[ 4 ] The masnuyee debilitated ketu is not formed, therefore the premise you have made is in fructuous.I think each & every part is crystal clear with the efforts of Mr. Tyagi . Have u included Sun incidently in point no. 3 & 4 in ur mail ? Plz correct my understanding.your views to my querry (How saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress ) are left inadvertantly.. No I have not included Sun incidentaly in my mail. 5. Saturn & Moon is not a good combination. Sat+Moon in 4 ( it may be wrong) may cause Purdard Maut. is it not conflicting with the above.[ 5 ] This could be true only if the natal Moon is also placed along with the Saturn in the 4th house.yes, you repeated what i have written. 6. Venus is no where realted to the khana 4 hence making of good shani or uccha ketu is ruled out. Is the theory of involvement of venus here is right.[ 6 ] Pt. Lalkitabee ji never said that Venus is associated with 4th house. And also never forget that Saturn can be Nek as such without the help of any other planet. Therefore your presumption that Saturn will act beneficially only if it is helped by venus is misplaced.It is not my point of view, it is the view of one of our friend in earlier mails and Shukla ji also refered towards it. . Saturn could be Nek in any house of the kundali if a person leads a moral life, doesn't drink, doesn't eat meat, respects the servants and is a good paymaster… and so on. Similarly it can be very malefic even if it is placed in the 10th house [ his own] or the 7th house [ of exlatation], if the Jatak turn it malefic through his own actions.this is not a generic rule. Some times Saturn malefic activities are fruitful to native. as in case of Saturn in House 4. The wine may help the native to cure his disease. [ I hope you know the difference of liquor as a medicine and drinking liquor [ sharab noshi] as a malefic activity of Saturn. What pundit ji here meant is liquor as a medicine. Therefore to say that ‘ sometimes Saturn malefic activities are fruitful for the native is wrong. Activities of malefic Saturn can never be beneficial for the Jatak] Secondly, a masnuyee planet is not formed by mere association [ in the sense you have used]. For a masnuyee planet to get formed, there have to be two natal planets. If and when a Venus is in the company of a Saturn, it will also result in a masnuyee exalted Ketu. Therefore while delineating the results one will have to study Venus, Saturn and also the two together in the form of masnuyee exalted Ketu. Therefore one will have to examine not two planets but will have to keep in mind a third planet also formed as a result of them two together. yes You are right.7. Regarding saturn 8 remedy of square silver piece.it is also used for Rahu 8. Your point that it is the Moon relation with saturn in 8th give clue is somthing conflicting. I feel that there may be some other reasons for using sqaure silver piece. if moon involvement is there in Khana[ 7 ] Yes, the square piece of silver is also advised to find out the nature of rahu. But the indications one would be looking for will be different than when finding out the nature of Saturn with a square piece of silver. In the case of the rahu it is the Mahout [ elephant driver] which will speak. The same analogy does not hold good for Saturn in the 8th.U asked in point 7:- " if moon involvement is there in Khana 8 then there will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be sufficient." I think u didnt read my mail carefuly. See my assert according to my previous mail in RED:--Ooper likhe gaye example main maine abhi sirf chandi ko madde-nazar kartey huve spasht kiya hai.Lekin "CHANDI KA CHAUKOR" apne aap main ek alag hee nazariya hai .Ise fir kabhi spasht karne ki koshish karoongaa .It is remedy given in the book. . Saturn in 8th if single, will not give bad results. Pandit Ji Said that " Chander ka upaya Karney se Shani Apne Head quarter se bahar ......" as per your views moons association with saturn form Ketu Neech.then why we associate moon there to form a neech ketu. Why square why not round. 8 then there will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be sufficient.[ 8 ] Pandit ji has advised to keep a square piece of silver to assess the nature of Saturn. He doesn't explain it any further. It is left to the reader to make out for himself. Suppose you have to find out the nature of Saturn through a square piece of silver :How would you go about it?How would you determine the nature of the Saturn? How will the square piece of silver indicate the nature of the Saturn? What indications would you be looking for before declaring Saturn malefic or benefic? [ You have not answered my above mentioned queries. Could you please answer them for me?]I assume what Pt Lalkitabee ji implies is that with Saturn in the 8th if the Jatak is given a square piece of silver to keep with him, and if the jatak experiences problem with his joints, spine, feet, ears or his son [ nishaniyan of neech Ketu ] then it can be assumed that the Saturn is malefic. If none of these indications are found then the Saturn can be declared as nek.Planet shows it melefic or benefic nature through its articles/live things. It is a generic rule. If Saturn is melefic then the saturn related ashiyaan give bad results. If one has no problem regarding Saturn then why this remedy is required.If saturn gives melefic result then this remedy of no use. in my views There might be some hidden message in this remedy. Tyagi Ji 's above queries need to be answered by experts. [ In the first place you are mistaken to think that keeping the silver piece is an upaya. No it is not an upaya. The silver piece is a touchstone ‘ kasauti’ to find out the “neeyat and Tabiyat” of Saturn. If the ‘neeyat and tabiyat’ of Saturn is already evident then one does not need to keep a square piece of silver. If the ‘neeyat and tabiyat’ is benefic, no upaya is needed, if it is malefic then the upaya will be needed. Therefore silver piece is used as a catalyst and not as an upaya, a catalyst which will uncover the secret of shani ]Now i will love to hear from u about this square piece of silver 1st of all. So plz explain ur criteria bcoz u do not seem novice scholar of lalkitabThanks for the compliments. I am still a novice in this field. I do not find myself to be a fit case to prescribe remedies to other. I expect the experts who prescribe these medicine to others may have correct answer. [ Even as a novice you seem to have a good understanding. That is creditable ] Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. Click here to know how. Save all your chat conversations. 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Guest guest Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Respected Kalsi Ji U r adopting the style ,by which only lines of lalkitab r aquiring web space till present. Though I wil try to make my vision to graspable within lalkitab. My views r with the heading of Lalkitabee Uvaach :- in highlited portion of combined mail of Tyagi Ji & u. Plz read as below:- With Regards Pt.Lalkitabee V.Shukla ------- Dear kalsi ji, I have answered your comments on my observations within brackets in bold blue letters. I hope Pt. lalkitabee ji will also answer your comments on his observations. Sincerely, Cahndra Prakash Respected Shukla Ji & Tyagi Ji,thanks for for answering my queries.My qerries are in Bold, Tyagi ji Views & yours Endorsement in normal text and only yours View in Italic Blue."I try to put my point view in these factors: Mine is in red Sh.Tyagi's ViewI have tried to answer your questions in the same order you had posed them.I am carrying the debate forward, and if Pt. Lalkitabee ji so wishes he can also join in later, may be to add to what I have said.Here are the answers to your queries 1. In Khana No. 4 it is written that if native has Faaliz or having disease the items of saturn will help him.[ 1 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek.Does not matter in case of Saturn in House no 4, Please refer page 210 line 7 of 1942. [ It is not said in line # 7. It is said in line #10-11 " uska jism nakara hone ke waqt shani ki cheezon se sehat hogi". The book further warns that such a person should not get involved in `Kabootarbazee of women". The 1952 ed adds a few more conditions " sanp ka tel bechne se lavaldi ka sabot milega khwa aulad ke yog lakh uttam hon, isi trah hi sharabnoshi,sanpon ke marvane, rat ke waqt makanon ki buniyad rakhne ki wajah se shani nakara kar liya jaya'. Which means that the Saturn should not be made into a malefic then only the Saturn will help. It was in this context I had said that the Saturn will help so long it is benefic. Therefore it matters whether the Saturn is Nek or Bud ] Lalkitabee Uvaach :- Agar shani is khana main sirf nek tabiyat ka hee hota to "Ab shani bura na hogaa." is line ke baad Pandit Ji kuchh bhi nahi likhtey. lekin unhone uske kharaab hone ke kaaran bhi ginaaye hain 2. Saturn is also described here as Khooni mallah. which destroy mamoo khandaan and Jaddi jaydaad.[ 2 ] No. This is not the result of the Saturn in the 4th per se,this will be the result only if the moon is also in the 10th.Yes, it is due to saturn presence in 4th and also due to moon effect for being in 10th. 3. Shani Kisi bhee halat mein tevay waalay kaa bura nahin karega in my view this is the house where saturn has the quality where he help the native in distress/disease even his bite can help the faliz patient to stand and run. Let us apply the rules in saturn 4 illustrated in your reply. Saturn being in 4th is having the realtionship with Moon. as per the above lines in red it become Neech Masnoyi ketu. Saturn has the deep enimity with Sun and ketu halves the sun . Now the point came in mind[ 3 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek. Therefore to say that ` shani kisi bhi halat mein bura nahi karega ` is wrong.Please read my answer to point 1or refer page 210 line 7 of 1942. [ My objection was to your statement " kisi bhi halat mein" which means under all circumstances. The conditions I have mentioned above make the role of Shani in the 4th subject to certain conditions, therefore it is not correct to say ` kisi bhi halat mein' ] Lalkitabee Uvaach :- Nothing to say –even a primary student also can understand this sentence . . I hope you understand the difference of being with or in the companionship of as against being related through a placement. Simply because the Saturn is in the 4th house, it can not be taken to mean that it is WITH the Moon. A masnuyee exalted Ketu can not be formed unless the Saturn and the Moon are physically together. Masnuyee planet is not formed merely by a planet being placed in a house.As per the properties of houses the effect of owner always be there in his pakka house.. [ But that effect does not get transformed into a masnuyee planet ] Lalkitabee Uvaach :- I agree with Tyagi ji & adding more that---Masnuyee haalat main do grahon ke talluq ke saath saath hamain yah nazariya bhi nahi bhoolnaa chahiye ki har grah ke do zuzb hote hain . 4. How Neech ketu or saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress .[ 4 ] The masnuyee debilitated ketu is not formed, therefore the premise you have made is in fructuous.I think each & every part is crystal clear with the efforts of Mr. Tyagi . Have u included Sun incidently in point no. 3 & 4 in ur mail ? Plz correct my understanding.your views to my querry (How saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress ) are left inadvertantly.. No I have not included Sun incidentaly in my mail. Lalkitabee Uvaach :- u r misleading here this discussion, All discussion is around the shani = ketu masnuyee (shani+chandar or shani + shukkar). where u saw sun in these combinations.So keep the track, otherwise u shud explain correlation of sun in this context 1st of all . . 5. Saturn & Moon is not a good combination. Sat+Moon in 4 ( it may be wrong) may cause Purdard Maut. is it not conflicting with the above.[ 5 ] This could be true only if the natal Moon is also placed along with the Saturn in the 4th house.yes, you repeated what i have written. 6. Venus is no where realted to the khana 4 hence making of good shani or uccha ketu is ruled out. Is the theory of involvement of venus here is right.[ 6 ] Pt. Lalkitabee ji never said that Venus is associated with 4th house. And also never forget that Saturn can be Nek as such without the help of any other planet. Therefore your presumption that Saturn will act beneficially only if it is helped by venus is misplaced.It is not my point of view, it is the view of one of our friend in earlier mails and Shukla ji also refered towards it. Lalkitabee Uvaach :- Main Ratoon Raam Raam, Tum suno Maraa Maraa. Shukla Ji never refered shukra ,he was referring to the OOOOONCH KETU (GANESH) which has the ZUZB of Shukkar. . Saturn could be Nek in any house of the kundali if a person leads a moral life, doesn't drink, doesn't eat meat, respects the servants and is a good paymaster… and so on. Similarly it can be very malefic even if it is placed in the 10th house [ his own] or the 7th house [ of exlatation], if the Jatak turn it malefic through his own actions.this is not a generic rule. Some times Saturn malefic activities are fruitful to native. as in case of Saturn in House 4. The wine may help the native to cure his disease. [ I hope you know the difference of liquor as a medicine and drinking liquor [ sharab noshi] as a malefic activity of Saturn. What pundit ji here meant is liquor as a medicine. Therefore to say that ` sometimes Saturn malefic activities are fruitful for the native is wrong. Activities of malefic Saturn can never be beneficial for the Jatak] Lalkitabee Uvaach :- kalsi ji read carefully--- sharabnoshi,sanpon ke marvane, rat ke waqt makanon ki buniyad rakhne ki wajah se shani nakara kar liya jaya'. Matlab saaf hai ki sharabi ban jaane par shani nakaraa hee saabit hogaa chahey vah khana 4 main hee kyon na ho. Lekin mandi sehat ke samay sharab medicine ki tarah (bakaayda salaah se aur ek maap ya paimayish ke mutabik) lenaa shafaa degi. Mere khyaal se pandit ji ne DAVAA- DAARU ke farq ko bakaaydaa samjhaa diyaa hai. Fir bhi aap "Saturn in House 4. The wine may help the native to cure his disease." likh rahey hain tou aap sharaab ko kis tarah se peene ki baat kar rahey hain, aap khud hee samjhaa dain Secondly, a masnuyee planet is not formed by mere association [ in the sense you have used]. For a masnuyee planet to get formed, there have to be two natal planets. If and when a Venus is in the company of a Saturn, it will also result in a masnuyee exalted Ketu. Therefore while delineating the results one will have to study Venus, Saturn and also the two together in the form of masnuyee exalted Ketu. Therefore one will have to examine not two planets but will have to keep in mind a third planet also formed as a result of them two together. yes You are right.7. Regarding saturn 8 remedy of square silver piece.it is also used for Rahu 8. Your point that it is the Moon relation with saturn in 8th give clue is somthing conflicting. I feel that there may be some other reasons for using sqaure silver piece. if moon involvement is there in Khana[ 7 ] Yes, the square piece of silver is also advised to find out the nature of rahu. But the indications one would be looking for will be different than when finding out the nature of Saturn with a square piece of silver. In the case of the rahu it is the Mahout [ elephant driver] which will speak. The same analogy does not hold good for Saturn in the 8th.U asked in point 7:- " if moon involvement is there in Khana 8 then there will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be sufficient." I think u didnt read my mail carefuly. See my assert according to my previous mail in RED:--Ooper likhe gaye example main maine abhi sirf chandi ko madde-nazar kartey huve spasht kiya hai.Lekin "CHANDI KA CHAUKOR" apne aap main ek alag hee nazariya hai .Ise fir kabhi spasht karne ki koshish karoongaa .It is remedy given in the book. . Saturn in 8th if single, will not give bad results. Pandit Ji Said that " Chander ka upaya Karney se Shani Apne Head quarter se bahar ......" as per your views moons association with saturn form Ketu Neech.then why we associate moon there to form a neech ketu. Why square why not round. Lalkitabee Uvaach :- Again im saying my previous sentence---"CHANDI KA CHAUKOR" apne aap main ek alag hee nazariya hai .Ise fir kabhi spasht karne ki koshish karoongaa . 8 then there will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be sufficient.[ 8 ] Pandit ji has advised to keep a square piece of silver to assess the nature of Saturn. He doesn't explain it any further. It is left to the reader to make out for himself. Suppose you have to find out the nature of Saturn through a square piece of silver :How would you go about it?How would you determine the nature of the Saturn? How will the square piece of silver indicate the nature of the Saturn? What indications would you be looking for before declaring Saturn malefic or benefic? [ You have not answered my above mentioned queries. Could you please answer them for me?]I assume what Pt Lalkitabee ji implies is that with Saturn in the 8th if the Jatak is given a square piece of silver to keep with him, and if the jatak experiences problem with his joints, spine, feet, ears or his son [ nishaniyan of neech Ketu ] then it can be assumed that the Saturn is malefic. If none of these indications are found then the Saturn can be declared as nek.Planet shows it melefic or benefic nature through its articles/live things. It is a generic rule. If Saturn is melefic then the saturn related ashiyaan give bad results. If one has no problem regarding Saturn then why this remedy is required.If saturn gives melefic result then this remedy of no use. in my views There might be some hidden message in this remedy. Tyagi Ji 's above queries need to be answered by experts. [ In the first place you are mistaken to think that keeping the silver piece is an upaya. No it is not an upaya. The silver piece is a touchstone ` kasauti' to find out the "neeyat and Tabiyat" of Saturn. If the `neeyat and tabiyat' of Saturn is already evident then one does not need to keep a square piece of silver. If the `neeyat and tabiyat' is benefic, no upaya is needed, if it is malefic then the upaya will be needed. Therefore silver piece is used as a catalyst and not as an upaya, a catalyst which will uncover the secret of shani ]Lalkitabee Uvaach :-Kalsi ji ,many times Saturn doesn't give bad results at only its own ASHIYAAS. "KURBAANI KE BAKREY" ka chapter kyon zaayaa kar rahey ho Bandhuuuuuu..Now i will love to hear from u about this square piece of silver 1st of all. So plz explain ur criteria bcoz u do not seem novice scholar of lalkitabThanks for the compliments. I am still a novice in this field. I do not find myself to be a fit case to prescribe remedies to other. I expect the experts who prescribe these medicine to others may have correct answer. [ Even as a novice you seem to have a good understanding. That is creditable ] Lalkitabee Uvaach :- """"""""""Zahe-naseeb""""""" Lekin koyee novice ya nausikhiyaa is tarikey se urdu ki kitaab ka page quote nahi kartaa chahey vah quote galat hee kyon na ho.Fir bhi meri purzor koshish hogi ki aap jo mujhse seekhnaaa ya janna chahtey hain main use samjhaane main kaamyaab ho jaun .. , Chandra Prakash Tyagi <cptyagi2007 wrote:>> Dear kalsi ji,> > I have answered your comments on my observations within brackets in bold blue letters.> > I hope Pt. lalkitabee ji will also answer your comments on his observations.> > Sincerely,> > Cahndra Prakash> > Respected Shukla Ji & Tyagi Ji,> thanks for for answering my queries.> My qerries are in Bold, Tyagi ji Views & yours Endorsement in normal text and only yours View in Italic Blue."> I try to put my point view in these factors: Mine is in red > > Sh.Tyagi's View> I have tried to answer your questions in the same order you had > posed them.> I am carrying the debate forward, and if Pt. Lalkitabee ji so wishes > he can also join in later, may be to add to what I have said.> > Here are the answers to your queries :> 1. In Khana No. 4 it is written that if native has Faaliz or having disease the items of saturn will help him.> [ 1 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek.> Does not matter in case of Saturn in House no 4, Please refer page 210 line 7 of 1942. > > > [ It is not said in line # 7. It is said in line #10-11 " uska jism nakara hone ke waqt shani ki cheezon se sehat hogi". The book further warns that such a person should not get involved in `Kabootarbazee of women". > > The 1952 ed adds a few more conditions " sanp ka tel bechne se lavaldi ka sabot milega khwa aulad ke yog lakh uttam hon, isi trah hi sharabnoshi,sanpon ke marvane, rat ke waqt makanon ki buniyad rakhne ki wajah se shani nakara kar liya jaya'. Which means that the Saturn should not be made into a malefic then only the Saturn will help. It was in this context I had said that the Saturn will help so long it is benefic. Therefore it matters whether the Saturn is Nek or Bud ]> > > 2. Saturn is also described here as Khooni mallah. which destroy mamoo khandaan and Jaddi jaydaad.> [ 2 ] No. This is not the result of the Saturn in the 4th per > se,this will be the result only if the moon is also in the 10th.> Yes, it is due to saturn presence in 4th and also due to moon effect for being in 10th. > 3. Shani Kisi bhee halat mein tevay waalay kaa bura nahin karega > in my view this is the house where saturn has the quality where he help the native in distress/disease even his bite can help the faliz patient to stand and run. Let us apply the rules in saturn 4 illustrated in your reply. Saturn being in 4th is having the realtionship with Moon. as per the above lines in red it become Neech Masnoyi ketu. Saturn has the deep enimity with Sun and ketu halves the sun . Now the point came in mind> [ 3 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek. Therefore to say that ` shani > kisi bhi halat mein bura nahi karega ` is wrong.> Please read my answer to point 1or refer page 210 line 7 of 1942.> > [ My objection was to your statement " kisi bhi halat mein" which means under all circumstances. The conditions I have mentioned above make the role of Shani in the 4th subject to certain conditions, therefore it is not correct to say ` kisi bhi halat mein' ]> > > I hope you understand the difference of being with or in the > companionship of as against being related through a placement. > Simply because the Saturn is in the 4th house, it can not be taken > to mean that it is WITH the Moon. A masnuyee exalted Ketu can not be > formed unless the Saturn and the Moon are physically together. > Masnuyee planet is not formed merely by a planet being placed in a > house.> As per the properties of houses the effect of owner always be there in his pakka house..> > [ But that effect does not get transformed into a masnuyee planet ]> > > 4. How Neech ketu or saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress .> [ 4 ] The masnuyee debilitated ketu is not formed, therefore the > premise you have made is in fructuous.> I think each & every part is crystal clear with the efforts of Mr. Tyagi . Have u included Sun incidently in point no. 3 & 4 in ur mail ? Plz correct my understanding.> your views to my querry (How saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress ) are left inadvertantly.. No I have not included Sun incidentaly in my mail. > > > > > 5. Saturn & Moon is not a good combination. Sat+Moon in 4 ( it may be wrong) may cause Purdard Maut. is it not conflicting with the above.> [ 5 ] This could be true only if the natal Moon is also placed > along with the Saturn in the 4th house.> yes, you repeated what i have written. > > > 6. Venus is no where realted to the khana 4 hence making of good shani or uccha ketu is ruled out. Is the theory of involvement of venus here is right.> [ 6 ] Pt. Lalkitabee ji never said that Venus is associated with > 4th house. > And also never forget that Saturn can be Nek as such without the > help of any other planet. Therefore your presumption that Saturn > will act beneficially only if it is helped by venus is misplaced.> It is not my point of view, it is the view of one of our friend in earlier mails and Shukla ji also refered towards it. . > > Saturn could be Nek in any house of the kundali if a person leads a > moral life, doesn't drink, doesn't eat meat, respects the servants > and is a good paymaster… and so on. Similarly it can be very malefic > even if it is placed in the 10th house [ his own] or the 7th house [ > of exlatation], if the Jatak turn it malefic through his own actions.> this is not a generic rule. Some times Saturn malefic activities are fruitful to native. as in case of Saturn in House 4. The wine may help the native to cure his disease.> > > [ I hope you know the difference of liquor as a medicine and drinking liquor [ sharab noshi] as a malefic activity of Saturn. What pundit ji here meant is liquor as a medicine. Therefore to say that ` sometimes Saturn malefic activities are fruitful for the native is wrong. Activities of malefic Saturn can never be beneficial for the Jatak]> > > Secondly, a masnuyee planet is not formed by mere association [ in > the sense you have used]. For a masnuyee planet to get formed, there > have to be two natal planets. If and when a Venus is in the company > of a Saturn, it will also result in a masnuyee exalted Ketu. > Therefore while delineating the results one will have to study > Venus, Saturn and also the two together in the form of masnuyee > exalted Ketu. Therefore one will have to examine not two planets but > will have to keep in mind a third planet also formed as a result of > them two together. > yes You are right.> 7. Regarding saturn 8 remedy of square silver piece.it is also used for Rahu 8. Your point that it is the Moon relation with saturn in 8th give clue is somthing conflicting. I feel that there may be some other reasons for using sqaure silver piece. if moon involvement is there in Khana> [ 7 ] Yes, the square piece of silver is also advised to find out > the nature of rahu. But the indications one would be looking for > will be different than when finding out the nature of Saturn with a > square piece of silver. In the case of the rahu it is the Mahout [ > elephant driver] which will speak. The same analogy does not hold > good for Saturn in the 8th.> U asked in point 7:- " if moon involvement is there in Khana 8 then there will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be sufficient." I think u didnt read my mail carefuly. See my assert according to my previous mail in RED:--> Ooper likhe gaye example main maine abhi sirf chandi ko madde-> nazar kartey huve spasht kiya hai.Lekin "CHANDI KA CHAUKOR" apne aap > main ek alag hee nazariya hai .Ise fir kabhi spasht karne ki koshish > karoongaa .> It is remedy given in the book. . Saturn in 8th if single, will not give bad results. Pandit Ji Said that " Chander ka upaya Karney se Shani Apne Head quarter se bahar ......" as per your views moons association with saturn form Ketu Neech.then why we associate moon there to form a neech ketu. Why square why not round. > 8 then there will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be sufficient.> [ 8 ] Pandit ji has advised to keep a square piece of silver to > assess the nature of Saturn. He doesn't explain it any further. It > is left to the reader to make out for himself. Suppose you have to > find out the nature of Saturn through a square piece of silver :> > How would you go about it?> How would you determine the nature of the Saturn? > How will the square piece of silver indicate the nature of the > Saturn? > What indications would you be looking for before declaring Saturn > malefic or benefic?> > [ You have not answered my above mentioned queries. Could you please answer them for me?]> > I assume what Pt Lalkitabee ji implies is that with Saturn in the > 8th if the Jatak is given a square piece of silver to keep with him, > and if the jatak experiences problem with his joints, spine, feet, > ears or his son [ nishaniyan of neech Ketu ] then it can be assumed > that the Saturn is malefic. If none of these indications are found > then the Saturn can be declared as nek.> Planet shows it melefic or benefic nature through its articles/live things. It is a generic rule. If Saturn is melefic then the saturn related ashiyaan give bad results. If one has no problem regarding Saturn then why this remedy is required.If saturn gives melefic result then this remedy of no use. in my views There might be some hidden message in this remedy. Tyagi Ji 's above queries need to be answered by experts. > > [ In the first place you are mistaken to think that keeping the silver piece is an upaya. No it is not an upaya. The silver piece is a touchstone ` kasauti' to find out the "neeyat and Tabiyat" of Saturn. If the `neeyat and tabiyat' of Saturn is already evident then one does not need to keep a square piece of silver. If the `neeyat and tabiyat' is benefic, no upaya is needed, if it is malefic then the upaya will be needed.> Therefore silver piece is used as a catalyst and not as an upaya, a catalyst which will uncover the secret of shani ]> > Now i will love to hear from u about this square piece of silver 1st of all. So plz explain ur criteria bcoz u do not seem novice scholar of lalkitab> Thanks for the compliments. I am still a novice in this field. I do not find myself to be a fit case to prescribe remedies to other. I expect the experts who prescribe these medicine to others may have correct answer. > > [ Even as a novice you seem to have a good understanding. That is creditable ]> > > > > > > > Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. Click here to know how.> > > Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2008 Report Share Posted March 6, 2008 Kalsi ji, You are very much right your words........ " But in my view the the owner of pakka ghar always have taaluq with posited planet and influence it. In my opinion it is not necessary that two planets physically be there in a house to form masnooyi planet. physical presence is one of the condition of the manooyi concept. I may be wrong. " ....... no you are not wrong if we read chapter of chandra+moon combination, the results are almost same as of shani alone in 4th house. therefore physical presence is one of the condition of the manooyi concept is correct and confirmed by this chapter both in 42 and 52 editions. regards kulbir On 3/6/08, Shivdev Kalsi <shivdev.kalsi wrote: > Respected Shukla Ji & Tyagi Ji, > I have tried to give my viewswhich are having dark background. Thanks for > the detailed scrutiny of the earlier reply. > regards > > On 3/4/08, lalkitabee <lalkitabee wrote: > > > > *Respected Kalsi Ji* > > > > *U r adopting the style ,by which only lines of lalkitab r aquiring web > > space till present. Though I wil try to make my vision to graspable within > > lalkitab. My views r with the heading of Lalkitabee Uvaach :- in > > highlited portion of combined mail of Tyagi Ji & u. Plz read as below:-* > > > > *With Regards* > > > > *Pt.Lalkitabee V.Shukla * > > * > > > --\ --\ --- > > Dear kalsi ji, > > > > I have answered your comments on my observations within brackets in bold > > blue letters. > > > > I hope Pt. lalkitabee ji will also answer your comments on his > > observations. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Cahndra Prakash > > > > Respected Shukla Ji & Tyagi Ji, > > thanks for for answering my queries. > > My qerries are in Bold, Tyagi ji Views & yours Endorsement in normal text > > and only yours View in Italic Blue. " > > I try to put my point view in these factors: Mine is in red > > > > Sh.Tyagi's View > > I have tried to answer your questions in the same order you had > > posed them. > > I am carrying the debate forward, and if Pt. Lalkitabee ji so wishes > > he can also join in later, may be to add to what I have said. > > > > Here are the answers to your queries > > * > > > > *1. In Khana No. 4 it is written that if native has Faaliz or having > > disease the items of saturn will help him.* > > [ 1 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek. > > *Does not matter in case of Saturn in House no 4, Please refer page 210 > > line 7 of 1942.* > > > > *[ It is not said in line # 7. It is said in line #10-11 " uska jism > > nakara hone ke waqt shani ki cheezon se sehat hogi " . The book further > > warns that such a person should not get involved in `Kabootarbazee of > > women " . * > > > > *The 1952 ed adds a few more conditions " sanp ka tel bechne se lavaldi ka > > sabot milega khwa aulad ke yog lakh uttam hon, isi trah hi > > sharabnoshi,sanpon ke marvane, rat ke waqt makanon ki buniyad rakhne ki > > wajah se shani nakara kar liya jaya'. Which means that the Saturn should > not > > be made into a malefic then only the Saturn will help. It was in this > > context I had said that the Saturn will help so long it is benefic. > > Therefore it matters whether the Saturn is Nek or Bud ]* > > > > > > > > > > > *Lalkitabee** Uvaach** :-** Agar shani is khana main sirf nek tabiyat ka > > hee hota to " **Ab shani bura na hogaa. " ** is line ke baad Pandit Ji > > kuchh bhi nahi likhtey. lekin unhone uske kharaab > hone > > ke kaaran bhi ginaaye hain ** * > > > > A* correction Tyagi Ji, It is Line no 9 not 7. I reproduce > > it " Is ghar ka sanichar kundli waalay par kabhi manda asar naa dega.Aur > > na hee saanp dasnay ka waaqyaa hoga . lekin agar tevay waaley kaa zism > kisi tarah se bhee manda ho jaavay to khud saanp hee usay das kar jaan se > maar denay kee bajaaye darust va mazboot zisam kar dega yaa us ka ziem > nakaarah honay ke waqt sanichar kee cheezon se sehat > > hogi.Validah aur ajeejon se ranzeedah hovay.sanichar v chander kaa zuda > zuda magar chander ka kharab asar hoga. > > Jo khud hee dushmani Karey. Azeejon se sukhi to validah dukhi > > karey " Now You can see what Pandit jee had written. * > > *2. Saturn is also described here as Khooni mallah. which destroy mamoo > > khandaan and Jaddi jaydaad.* > > [ 2 ] No. This is not the result of the Saturn in the 4th per > > se,this will be the result only if the moon is also in the 10th. > > *Yes, it is due to saturn presence in 4th and also due to moon effect for > > being in 10th. * > > *3. Shani Kisi bhee halat mein tevay waalay kaa bura nahin karega ** > > in my view this is the house where saturn has the quality where he help > > the native in distress/disease even his bite can help the faliz patient to > > stand and run. Let us apply the rules in saturn 4 illustrated in your > reply. > > Saturn being in 4th is having the realtionship with Moon. as per the above > > lines in red it become Neech Masnoyi ketu. Saturn has the deep enimity > with > > Sun and ketu halves the sun . Now the point came in mind* > > [ 3 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek. Therefore to say that ` shani > > kisi bhi halat mein bura nahi karega ` is wrong. > > *Please read my answer to point 1or refer page 210** line 9 of 1942.* > > > > > > > > *[ My objection was to your statement " kisi bhi halat mein " which means > > under all circumstances. The conditions I have mentioned above make the > > role of Shani in the 4th subject to certain conditions, therefore it is > > not correct to say ` kisi bhi halat mein' ]* > > > > * **Lalkitabee** Uvaach** :- Nothing to say –even a primary student also > > can understand this sentence . > > .** * > > > > *From the lines reproduce above, it is there that Saturn will not harm the > > native health in any circumstance.Rather will help him incase of bad > > health. Regarding Primary student factor Dear Shukla ji I consider myself > > still in primary section & also not amongst the brilliant one.* > > I hope you understand the difference of being with or in the > > companionship of as against being related through a placement. > > Simply because the Saturn is in the 4th house, it can not be taken > > to mean that it is WITH the Moon. A masnuyee exalted Ketu can not be > > formed unless the Saturn and the Moon are physically together. > > Masnuyee planet is not formed merely by a planet being placed in a > > house. > > *As per the properties of houses the effect of owner always be there in > > his pakka house.*. > > > > > > > > *[ But that effect does not get transformed into a masnuyee planet ]* > > > > * **Lalkitabee** Uvaach** :- I agree with Tyagi ji & adding more > > that---Masnuyee haalat main do grahon ke talluq ke saath saath hamain yah > > nazariya bhi nahi bhoolnaa chahiye ki har grah ke do zuzb hote hain > > . > > ** **Yes you are right, But in my view the the owner of pakka ghar always > > have taaluq with posited planet and influence it. In my opinion it is not > > necessary that two planets physically be there in a house to form masnooyi > > planet. physical presence is one of the condition of the manooyi concept. > I may be wrong. > > ** ** ** * > > > > > > *4. How Neech ketu or saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress .* > > [ 4 ] The masnuyee debilitated ketu is not formed, therefore the > > premise you have made is in fructuous. > > *I think each & every part is crystal clear with the efforts of Mr. Tyagi > > . Have u included Sun incidently in point no. 3 & 4 in ur mail ? Plz > correct > > my understanding. > > **your views to my querry (How saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress > > ) are left inadvertantly.. No I have not included Sun incidentaly in my > > mail. * > > > > *Lalkitabee** Uvaach** :- u r misleading here this discussion, All > > discussion is around the shani = ketu masnuyee (shani+chandar or shani > > + shukkar). where u saw sun in these combinations.So keep the track, > > otherwise u shud explain correlation of sun in this context 1st of > > all . ** .** * > > > > * Dear Kitabi ji, I remained on the topic and keep on the track.. It is > > the first lesson of my primary class > > that explains which planet represent whom and which ashiyan related to > > whom. I feel either you are making joke or > > you missed your primary classes and went straight forward to remedy > section, of course , this is a money spinner chapter > > for astrologer .I know Tyagi ji is knowing- > > why i discussed Sun here, that is why he did not pointed out this. * > > > > *5. Saturn & Moon is not a good combination. Sat+Moon in 4 ( it may be > > wrong) may cause Purdard Maut. is it not conflicting with the above.* > > [ 5 ] This could be true only if the natal Moon is also placed > > along with the Saturn in the 4th house. > > yes, you repeated what i have written. > > > > > > *6. Venus is no where realted to the khana 4 hence making of good shani or > > uccha ketu is ruled out. Is the theory of involvement of venus here is > > right.* > > [ 6 ] Pt. Lalkitabee ji never said that Venus is associated with > > 4th house. > > And also never forget that Saturn can be Nek as such without the > > help of any other planet. Therefore your presumption that Saturn > > will act beneficially only if it is helped by venus is misplaced. > > *It is not my point of view, it is the view of one of our friend in > > earlier mails and Shukla ji also refered towards it.* > > > > *Lalkitabee** Uvaach** :-** Main Ratoon Raam Raam, Tum suno Maraa Maraa. > > > > > > * > > > > *Shukla Ji never refered shukra ,he was referring to the OOOOONCH KETU > > (GANESH)** which has the ZUZB of Shukkar.** > > .* > > > > That is why I asked when there is no relation ship of shukkar in house No. > > 4 then who made the shani " Nesh se ganesh " as per Shukla Ji Ganesh can be > > formed with the help of venus. > > Saturn could be Nek in any house of the kundali if a person leads a > > moral life, doesn't drink, doesn't eat meat, respects the servants > > and is a good paymaster… and so on. Similarly it can be very malefic > > even if it is placed in the 10th house [ his own] or the 7th house [ > > of exlatation], if the Jatak turn it malefic through his own actions. > > *this is not a generic rule. Some times Saturn malefic activities are > > fruitful to native. as in case of Saturn in House 4. The wine may help the > > native to cure his disease.* > > > > *[ I hope you know the difference of liquor as a medicine and drinking > > liquor [ sharab noshi] as a malefic activity of Saturn. What pundit ji > here > > meant is liquor as a medicine. Therefore to say that ` sometimes Saturn > > malefic activities are fruitful for the native is wrong. Activities of > > malefic Saturn can never be beneficial for the Jatak]* > > > > *Lalkitabee** Uvaach** :- ** kalsi ji read carefully---** > **sharabnoshi,sanpon > > ke marvane, rat ke waqt makanon ki buniyad rakhne ki wajah se shani > nakara > > kar liya jaya'. Matlab saaf hai ki sharabi ban jaane par shani > nakaraa > > hee saabit hogaa chahey vah khana 4 main hee kyon na ho. Lekin mandi > > sehat ke samay sharab medicine ki tarah (bakaayda salaah se aur > > ek maap ya paimayish ke mutabik) lenaa shafaa degi. Mere khyaal se > > pandit ji ne DAVAA- DAARU ke farq ko bakaaydaa samjhaa diyaa hai. > > Fir bhi aap ** " **Saturn in House 4. The wine may help the native to > > cure his disease. " ** likh rahey hain tou aap sharaab ko kis tarah se > > peene ki baat kar rahey hain, aap khud hee samjhaa dain* > > > > * **Kisi bhee cheej ko matra se adhik le > > lena us cheej kaa galat nateeza deti hai. Since Pandit jee has told that > shani kee cheejay will help native, and wine is considered as shani ashiyaan > and is beleived by every pandit that it is a bad item. Therefore it is clear > that there is no bad ashayiaan in the world if it is used in limited > capacity. Mr. Tyagi and > > you has right pointed out that Taking Shani items in excess can > > make the Shani Bad. What is your experience about Saturn 4th native. You > must have a vast database of your clients. Is it there that native having > saturn in 4th always drink much. and is there nay bad effect to their > health. Please Give your experience. > > * > > Secondly, a masnuyee planet is not formed by mere association [ in > > the sense you have used]. For a masnuyee planet to get formed, there > > have to be two natal planets. If and when a Venus is in the company > > of a Saturn, it will also result in a masnuyee exalted Ketu. > > Therefore while delineating the results one will have to study > > Venus, Saturn and also the two together in the form of masnuyee > > exalted Ketu. Therefore one will have to examine not two planets but > > will have to keep in mind a third planet also formed as a result of > > them two together. > > *yes You are right.* > > *7. Regarding saturn 8 remedy of square silver piece.it is also used for > > Rahu 8. Your point that it is the Moon relation with saturn in 8th give > clue > > is somthing conflicting. I feel that there may be some other reasons for > > using sqaure silver piece. if moon involvement is there in Khana* > > [ 7 ] Yes, the square piece of silver is also advised to find out > > the nature of rahu. But the indications one would be looking for > > will be different than when finding out the nature of Saturn with a > > square piece of silver. In the case of the rahu it is the Mahout [ > > elephant driver] which will speak. The same analogy does not hold > > good for Saturn in the 8th. > > *U asked in point 7:- " if moon involvement is there in Khana 8 then there > > will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be sufficient. " I think > u > > didnt read my mail carefuly. See my assert according to my previous mail > in > > RED:-- > > Ooper likhe gaye example main maine abhi sirf chandi ko madde- > > nazar kartey huve spasht kiya hai.Lekin " CHANDI KA CHAUKOR " apne aap > > main ek alag hee nazariya hai .Ise fir kabhi spasht karne ki koshish > > karoongaa .* > > It is remedy given in the book. . Saturn in 8th if single, will not give > > bad results. > > Pandit Ji Said that " Chander ka upaya Karney se Shani Apne Head quarter > se bahar ...... " as per your > > views moons association with saturn form Ketu Neech.then why we associate > > moon there to form a neech ketu. Why square why not round. > > > > *Lalkitabee** Uvaach** :-** Again im saying my previous > sentence**---* " CHANDI > > KA CHAUKOR " apne aap main ek alag hee nazariya hai .Ise fir kabhi spasht > > karne ki koshish karoongaa . > > Your views that by keeping " chokor chhandi ka tukda " make neech ketu and > > will effect son is not agreeable. In my views Saturn +Moon > > is not combined with this upaya there may have some other reason behind > it. > > * 8 then there will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be > > sufficient.* > > [ 8 ] Pandit ji has advised to keep a square piece of silver to > > assess the nature of Saturn. He doesn't explain it any further. It > > is left to the reader to make out for himself. Suppose you have to > > find out the nature of Saturn through a square piece of silver : > > > > How would you go about it?(It is what I am asking? What is the need of > > knowing nature of saturn.? If one use the Square Silve piece what type of > > results can come out which will tell the nature of saturn. > > > > > > How would you determine the nature of the Saturn? > > How will the square piece of silver indicate the nature of the > > Saturn? > > What indications would you be looking for before declaring Saturn > > malefic or benefic?In my views it is mentioned in the book itself the > > 'nishaniyaan of a planet'if it become > > bad. In my views if saturn is bad, native chaacha may be experiences bad > time. or may be losing in bussiness of saturn > > item.or having Muqadmas etc.... > > > > > > > > *[ You have not answered my above mentioned queries. Could you please > > answer them for me?]* > > > > I assume what Pt Lalkitabee ji implies is that with Saturn in the > > 8th if the Jatak is given a square piece of silver to keep with him, > > and if the jatak experiences problem with his joints, spine, feet, > > ears or his son [ nishaniyan of neech Ketu ] then it can be assumed > > that the Saturn is malefic. If none of these indications are found > > then the Saturn can be declared as nek. > > *Planet shows it melefic or benefic nature through its articles/live > > things. It is a generic rule. If Saturn is melefic then the saturn related > > ashiyaan give bad results. If one has no problem regarding Saturn then why > > this remedy is required.If saturn gives melefic result then this remedy of > > no use. in my views There might be some hidden message in this remedy. > Tyagi > > Ji 's above queries need to be answered by experts.* > > > > > > > > *[ In the first place you are mistaken to think that keeping the silver > > piece is an upaya. No it is not an upaya. The silver piece is a touchstone > ` > > kasauti' to find out the " neeyat and Tabiyat " of Saturn. If the `neeyat > and > > tabiyat' of Saturn is already evident then one does not need to keep a > > square piece of silver. If the `neeyat and tabiyat' is benefic, no upaya > is > > needed, if it is malefic then the upaya will be needed.* > > > > *Therefore silver piece is used as a catalyst and not as an upaya, a > > catalyst which will uncover the secret of shani ]Please have a look at > > 1952 book Shani Khano No 8. It is bracketed in Chander ka > > upaya.(Page 622 para 4) Again my views are masnuyi Neech ketu has nothing > > to do with the son of the native. > > Shukla Ji said rightly that one should keep in mind of 'kurbani ke > bakrey " .Again my query is when one can know from the nishaniyas of effect of > a planet then why you need this upaya and what indications arise due to > this upaya. > > > > **Lalkitabee** Uvaach** :-Kalsi ji ,many times Saturn doesn't give bad > > results at only its own ASHIYAAS. " KURBAANI KE BAKREY " ka chapter kyon > > zaayaa kar rahey ho Bandhuuuuuu. you are expert in remedies and know all > > the chapters , You can rightly tell about thsi remedy. ** > > Now i will love to hear from u about this square piece of silver 1st of > > all. So plz explain ur criteria bcoz u do not seem novice scholar of > > lalkitab* > > *Thanks for the compliments. I am still a novice in this field. I do not > > find myself to be a fit case to prescribe remedies to > > other. I expect the experts who prescribe these medicine to others > > may have correct answer. * > > > > * **[ Even as a novice you seem to have a good understanding. That is > > creditable ]* > > > > *Lalkitabee** Uvaach** :- " " " " " " " " " " Zahe-naseeb " " " " " " " Lekin koyee novice > > ya nausikhiyaa is tarikey se urdu ki kitaab ka page quote nahi kartaa > chahey > > vah quote galat hee kyon na ho.Fir bhi meri purzor koshish hogi ki > > aap jo mujhse seekhnaaa ya janna chahtey hain main use samjhaane main > > kaamyaab ho jaun ..* > > > > I am grateful . Vaisay jo bhee baalak kitab ko padhta hai usay page > > number bhee to maloom hona chahiye. > > > > , Chandra Prakash Tyagi > > <cptyagi2007 wrote: > > > > > > Dear kalsi ji, > > > > > > I have answered your comments on my observations within brackets in bold > > blue letters. > > > > > > I hope Pt. lalkitabee ji will also answer your comments on his > > observations. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Cahndra Prakash > > > > > > Respected Shukla Ji & Tyagi Ji, > > > thanks for for answering my queries. > > > My qerries are in Bold, Tyagi ji Views & yours Endorsement in normal > > text and only yours View in Italic Blue. " > > > I try to put my point view in these factors: Mine is in red > > > > > > Sh.Tyagi's View > > > I have tried to answer your questions in the same order you had > > > posed them. > > > I am carrying the debate forward, and if Pt. Lalkitabee ji so wishes > > > he can also join in later, may be to add to what I have said. > > > > > > Here are the answers to your queries : > > > 1. In Khana No. 4 it is written that if native has Faaliz or having > > disease the items of saturn will help him. > > > [ 1 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek. > > > Does not matter in case of Saturn in House no 4, Please refer page 210 > > line 7 of 1942. > > > > > > > > > [ It is not said in line # 7. It is said in line #10-11 " uska jism > > nakara hone ke waqt shani ki cheezon se sehat hogi " . The book further > warns > > that such a person should not get involved in `Kabootarbazee of women " . > > > > > > The 1952 ed adds a few more conditions " sanp ka tel bechne se lavaldi > > ka sabot milega khwa aulad ke yog lakh uttam hon, isi trah hi > > sharabnoshi,sanpon ke marvane, rat ke waqt makanon ki buniyad rakhne ki > > wajah se shani nakara kar liya jaya'. Which means that the Saturn should > not > > be made into a malefic then only the Saturn will help. It was in this > > context I had said that the Saturn will help so long it is benefic. > > Therefore it matters whether the Saturn is Nek or Bud ] > > > > > > > > > 2. Saturn is also described here as Khooni mallah. which destroy mamoo > > khandaan and Jaddi jaydaad. > > > [ 2 ] No. This is not the result of the Saturn in the 4th per > > > se,this will be the result only if the moon is also in the 10th. > > > Yes, it is due to saturn presence in 4th and also due to moon effect for > > being in 10th. > > > 3. Shani Kisi bhee halat mein tevay waalay kaa bura nahin karega > > > in my view this is the house where saturn has the quality where he help > > the native in distress/disease even his bite can help the faliz patient to > > stand and run. Let us apply the rules in saturn 4 illustrated in your > reply. > > Saturn being in 4th is having the realtionship with Moon. as per the above > > lines in red it become Neech Masnoyi ketu. Saturn has the deep enimity > with > > Sun and ketu halves the sun . Now the point came in mind > > > [ 3 ] Yes, only if the Saturn is Nek. Therefore to say that ` shani > > > kisi bhi halat mein bura nahi karega ` is wrong. > > > Please read my answer to point 1or refer page 210 line 7 of 1942. > > > > > > [ My objection was to your statement " kisi bhi halat mein " which means > > under all circumstances. The conditions I have mentioned above make the > role > > of Shani in the 4th subject to certain conditions, therefore it is not > > correct to say ` kisi bhi halat mein' ] > > > > > > > > > I hope you understand the difference of being with or in the > > > companionship of as against being related through a placement. > > > Simply because the Saturn is in the 4th house, it can not be taken > > > to mean that it is WITH the Moon. A masnuyee exalted Ketu can not be > > > formed unless the Saturn and the Moon are physically together. > > > Masnuyee planet is not formed merely by a planet being placed in a > > > house. > > > As per the properties of houses the effect of owner always be there in > > his pakka house.. > > > > > > [ But that effect does not get transformed into a masnuyee planet ] > > > > > > > > > 4. How Neech ketu or saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress . > > > [ 4 ] The masnuyee debilitated ketu is not formed, therefore the > > > premise you have made is in fructuous. > > > I think each & every part is crystal clear with the efforts of Mr. Tyagi > > . Have u included Sun incidently in point no. 3 & 4 in ur mail ? Plz > correct > > my understanding. > > > your views to my querry (How saturn help his deep enemy Sun in distress > > ) are left inadvertantly.. No I have not included Sun incidentaly in my > > mail. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Saturn & Moon is not a good combination. Sat+Moon in 4 ( it may be > > wrong) may cause Purdard Maut. is it not conflicting with the above. > > > [ 5 ] This could be true only if the natal Moon is also placed > > > along with the Saturn in the 4th house. > > > yes, you repeated what i have written. > > > > > > > > > 6. Venus is no where realted to the khana 4 hence making of good shani > > or uccha ketu is ruled out. Is the theory of involvement of venus here is > > right. > > > [ 6 ] Pt. Lalkitabee ji never said that Venus is associated with > > > 4th house. > > > And also never forget that Saturn can be Nek as such without the > > > help of any other planet. Therefore your presumption that Saturn > > > will act beneficially only if it is helped by venus is misplaced. > > > It is not my point of view, it is the view of one of our friend in > > earlier mails and Shukla ji also refered towards it. . > > > > > > Saturn could be Nek in any house of the kundali if a person leads a > > > moral life, doesn't drink, doesn't eat meat, respects the servants > > > and is a good paymaster… and so on. Similarly it can be very malefic > > > even if it is placed in the 10th house [ his own] or the 7th house [ > > > of exlatation], if the Jatak turn it malefic through his own actions. > > > this is not a generic rule. Some times Saturn malefic activities are > > fruitful to native. as in case of Saturn in House 4. The wine may help the > > native to cure his disease. > > > > > > > > > [ I hope you know the difference of liquor as a medicine and drinking > > liquor [ sharab noshi] as a malefic activity of Saturn. What pundit ji > here > > meant is liquor as a medicine. Therefore to say that ` sometimes Saturn > > malefic activities are fruitful for the native is wrong. Activities of > > malefic Saturn can never be beneficial for the Jatak] > > > > > > > > > Secondly, a masnuyee planet is not formed by mere association [ in > > > the sense you have used]. For a masnuyee planet to get formed, there > > > have to be two natal planets. If and when a Venus is in the company > > > of a Saturn, it will also result in a masnuyee exalted Ketu. > > > Therefore while delineating the results one will have to study > > > Venus, Saturn and also the two together in the form of masnuyee > > > exalted Ketu. Therefore one will have to examine not two planets but > > > will have to keep in mind a third planet also formed as a result of > > > them two together. > > > yes You are right. > > > 7. Regarding saturn 8 remedy of square silver piece.it is also used for > > Rahu 8. Your point that it is the Moon relation with saturn in 8th give > clue > > is somthing conflicting. I feel that there may be some other reasons for > > using sqaure silver piece. if moon involvement is there in Khana > > > [ 7 ] Yes, the square piece of silver is also advised to find out > > > the nature of rahu. But the indications one would be looking for > > > will be different than when finding out the nature of Saturn with a > > > square piece of silver. In the case of the rahu it is the Mahout [ > > > elephant driver] which will speak. The same analogy does not hold > > > good for Saturn in the 8th. > > > U asked in point 7:- " if moon involvement is there in Khana 8 then > > there will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be sufficient. " I > > think u didnt read my mail carefuly. See my assert according to my > previous > > mail in RED:-- > > > Ooper likhe gaye example main maine abhi sirf chandi ko madde- > > > nazar kartey huve spasht kiya hai.Lekin " CHANDI KA CHAUKOR " apne aap > > > main ek alag hee nazariya hai .Ise fir kabhi spasht karne ki koshish > > > karoongaa . > > > It is remedy given in the book. . Saturn in 8th if single, will not give > > bad results. Pandit Ji Said that " Chander ka upaya Karney se Shani Apne > > Head quarter se bahar ...... " as per your views moons association with > > saturn form Ketu Neech.then why we associate moon there to form a neech > > ketu. Why square why not round. > > > 8 then there will be no need of square piece only Silver shall be > > sufficient. > > > [ 8 ] Pandit ji has advised to keep a square piece of silver to > > > assess the nature of Saturn. He doesn't explain it any further. It > > > is left to the reader to make out for himself. Suppose you have to > > > find out the nature of Saturn through a square piece of silver : > > > > > > How would you go about it? > > > How would you determine the nature of the Saturn? > > > How will the square piece of silver indicate the nature of the > > > Saturn? > > > What indications would you be looking for before declaring Saturn > > > malefic or benefic? > > > > > > [ You have not answered my above mentioned queries. Could you please > > answer them for me?] > > > > > > I assume what Pt Lalkitabee ji implies is that with Saturn in the > > > 8th if the Jatak is given a square piece of silver to keep with him, > > > and if the jatak experiences problem with his joints, spine, feet, > > > ears or his son [ nishaniyan of neech Ketu ] then it can be assumed > > > that the Saturn is malefic. If none of these indications are found > > > then the Saturn can be declared as nek. > > > Planet shows it melefic or benefic nature through its articles/live > > things. It is a generic rule. If Saturn is melefic then the saturn related > > ashiyaan give bad results. If one has no problem regarding Saturn then why > > this remedy is required.If saturn gives melefic result then this remedy of > > no use. in my views There might be some hidden message in this remedy. > Tyagi > > Ji 's above queries need to be answered by experts. > > > > > > [ In the first place you are mistaken to think that keeping the silver > > piece is an upaya. No it is not an upaya. The silver piece is a touchstone > ` > > kasauti' to find out the " neeyat and Tabiyat " of Saturn. If the `neeyat > and > > tabiyat' of Saturn is already evident then one does not need to keep a > > square piece of silver. If the `neeyat and tabiyat' is benefic, no upaya > is > > needed, if it is malefic then the upaya will be needed. > > > Therefore silver piece is used as a catalyst and not as an upaya, a > > catalyst which will uncover the secret of shani ] > > > > > > Now i will love to hear from u about this square piece of silver 1st of > > all. So plz explain ur criteria bcoz u do not seem novice scholar of > > lalkitab > > > Thanks for the compliments. I am still a novice in this field. I do not > > find myself to be a fit case to prescribe remedies to other. I expect the > > experts who prescribe these medicine to others may have correct answer. > > > > > > [ Even as a novice you seem to have a good understanding. That is > > creditable ] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. Click here to know > > how. > > > > > > > > > Save all your chat conversations. Find them online. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Dr. Shiv Dev Kalsi, > Jyotish Rishi (AIFAS) > Consultant (Vedic Astrology) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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