on behalf of Lalkitabee ji / shri NK Bhardwaj ji

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhardwaj ji, One of your messages was pending to be answered by Lalkitabee ji. Since he is in mourning and may not be available till the end of the month, I thought of answering it on his behalf. My answers are in blue after your queries so that none of your queries go unanswered. This way the answers stay specific and to the point. Sincerely, Chandra Prakash My Response Dear Lalkitabi Jee,I know that you can never do the translation and give it to the fellow members. Dear Shukla Ji Break the barriers. Contribute something

for the cause of Lal Kitab. I gave and will continue to give what material I have with me, to the members. Further, I have not the habit of making crow on seeing feather ( Mujhay Pankh dekh kar kauva banaaney kee aadat nahin). I think you day dreamt too much these days may be you heard me saying these words("lalkitab as a quiada of primary class" ) in your dream.Yes I said this "Let us work on to the other issues related to the LalKitab which are still to unsolved." to give a safe and respectful escape for those who called this sarini as a incorrect, useless sarni and misleading the other members by giving wrong logics. You may have seen the Mail of Sh. Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi..I thank you Lalkitabee ji, your these posts refreshed my earlier work of astrological studies. [ There has been no effort to mislead the members. We as a group are convinced that the sarini under discussion should not be used at all for births in India or abroad. We reiterate once again that the Sarini is inaccurate, obsolete, and of no use. It might help calculating the Lagna degrees for a birth around the region it has been based on, that too after Ayanansh correction. The Sarini can not help in calculating accurately the Lagna degrees of birth places beyond the region it is based on. Since the Sarini is calculated for Madras time [ now IST ] it means the calculations have been done for longitude 82E30. Calculating the Sarini for IST or Madras time does not mean that the Sarini becomes applicable for the entire country. For the purposes of astrology even the IST doesn?t become applicable for the entire country, it too has to be converted into Local Mean Time { LMT ]. Since a Sarini can not be calculated at a longitude alone, the value of a latitude too has to be added. You need two axis to plot some thing ?X?axis and ?Y? axis. Once a latitude value is added the sarini becomes for that place/ city. That is why all sarinis carry a header informing which city the sarini has been calculated for. For example the Lagna sarini published in the ?Vishwa Vijay Panchang? of Solan carries a by-line saying that it has been calculated on

the co-ordinates of Delhi. All times given in the panchang are of Delhi.] You are right Lalkitabee Ji, This issue has been discussed in 2004 in detail. Then What prompted you to make hue and cry over this sarni now in 2007. And of course you have made the group members to believe that you have done all the calculations and brought out the Many errors. Regarding Misleading (GumRahi) , Respected Sir, It is your mails/calculation which are misleading the members. For example: [ Now the initial pages of the sarini have been uploaded in the files of the group. The anomalies mentioned are for

every one to verify. We do not gain any thing by proving this Sarini as inaccurate and out of date] 1. You said that Sarni is not of Madras time. It is based upon for a place in Allahabad or near place and it Aayaansha is wrong and didn't give any data to the membersI as a group member request you to supply " a. the basis of your calculation, [ The basis of our calculations is the ganit used in astrology as given in ?Grah Laghav?. This is the traditional Ganit any student of astrology has to know. A - Yes, the sarini is not calculated at Madras time. It has been calculated at IST which was earlier known as Madras time. LMT of Madras is 5hours 21minutes ahead of GMT, where as the IST is 5 hours 30 minutes ahead of GMT. There is a difference of 9 minutes between the IST and the LMT of Madras. 9 minutes is no small matter. B ? The Latitude used in calculating the Sarini is not of Madras. Pick up any date from the sarini and verify for your self whether the co-ordinates of Madras have been used or not. The rising time for Lagna given in the Sarini can be approximately achieved only if the co-ordinates are : 82E30 ; 26N0 and Ayanansh 23 degrees. It will prove that the coordinates are of a place close to the Allahabad-Varanasi region C- The current ayanansh is 23d58m2s, where as when the sarini came into vogue the Ayanansh

adopted by panchangkars was 23 degrees. The next ayanansh revision was not due till 1973. Therefore in order to find out the degrees of Lagna one will have to incorporate the difference of 58m2s in the result obtained from the sarini. ] b. All Sarni pages to group members [ The initial pages that we have already uploaded, Shri Kiranjit kumar ji has promised to upload the rest. Our findings are based on the pages that we had. If you have some different pages or a different sarini we will evaluate that and if necessary we will change our opinion about the sarini. So long as your sarini is the same which we partly have, our opinion that it is inaccurate and should not be used for births either in India or abroad stays] c. Basis on which you said that aayaansha is wrong when no year of printing or Base year is given on this sarni. [ All sarinis printed in various Panchangs and Jantris before 1973 were calculated at ayanansh 23 degrees and the base year was 1938. The next the corrections for ayanansh 23d30 were made for the 1973 panchangs. Since the Sarini came into existence between 1938 and 1973, the Ayanansh used has to be 23 degrees,]d. Basis on which you are emphasizing that this sarni is wrong and inaccurate [ On the basis of empirical study. You yourself pick up any date from the sarini and see for yourself whether the time of rising and the end of a sign matches or

not. The margin of error that could be given to a manually calculated sarini and the lagna derived through a software can be a degree or so. Any thing more than that should be declared as inaccurate, specially if very sophisticated tools of finding the Lagnansha are already available ] 2. You being so learned, misled the younger generation of members by saying that this sarni give a wrong time makar Sakranti, while there is no mention of Makar Sakranti at all in this Sarni. If you have the calculations please supply this for the benefit of the members ? [ Sankrantis are used as reference points by us for our study because there isn?t much variation in them. You are free to use any date and verify the data. Let the group also know the date you have picked so that each one of us can also cross check for that date. Picking up a date for verification is not misleading. ] 3. you did not clear your stand regarding Makar Sakranti as you said that it always occur at sunrise of 14th of January every month, while this is not necessary. ( See Mr. Shiv Dev Kalsi Mail). [ This has already been answered by Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji]Dear Members, As I said earlier I have uploaded the pages available with me of lagan sarni and here is the link to download http://lalkitab.tripod.comlagansarni.rar [ Could you please upload those pages in the file section of the group also as has been done by Bhooshan Priya ji ]Hereunder is my finding

regarding this sarni. I am providing this information after going through extensive calculation work. I have full calculations with me and can be have from me by email or calling me at my cellphone. 1. The lagan Sarni is Based upon Madras Time and is absolutely correct what is mentioned in it heading.. [ Yes, but which Latitude has been used to calculate it? A sarini can not be calculated on the longitude alone. The time reference can decide the longitude but not the Latitude. Latitude has to be chosen. What latitude you think has been chosen? No sarini can be calculated through a longitude alone unless the latitude is also provided. You can not plot

on one axis alone. There have to be two of them ?X? and ?Y?. Is it calculated at madras latitude ? Before answering this I would request you to verify the statement] 2. It is Got published in 1952 ( Most Probabaly) [ That is widely believed. Even if that was not true it wouldn?t make a difference so long as the Sarini has not been based on the data prior to 1938 ] 3. There is nowhere written that it is LalKitab Lagan Sarni [ Do you want to disown the sarini now? It doesn?t matter whether the word Lal Kitab is written on it or not. So long as it has been used by Lal Kitabists and some still insist that it be used, it would always be associated with the Lal Kitab whether the words Lal Kitab are written on it or not. ] 4. All Lagan times are correct (Manual Calculation gives variation 0.5 minutes to 2

minutes which is ignorable in manual calculation) as in 4 minutes ascendant travel only one degree. [ No. It is not true. It has been proved through the exercise done by Shri Raheja, Varun bhayya and subsequently by me. Now even your laborious exercise about Aquarius rising at Madras at 6:52 am on March 1, 1952 has proved that the Sarini is grossly inaccurate. 5. No timing of ingression of Sun or any Planet given. [ In a sarini the timings of ingression or the movement of the planets is never given. For that all the Panchangs carry different tables. ] 6. And Finally but not the least it is upto the user to use it or use any software to calculate Ascendent. From my calculations it is revealed that one can use this sarni for the birth as per list of foreign countries as per the method given in this sarni but with a limitation that this may land up to error of few degrees of ascendant and few degree error is negligible as far as the LalKitab is concerned. But it cannot be used for other systems where higher accuracy of

Ascendant is required. With more accurate methods are available it is likely that very few people may use it. For foreign birth only those users can try who have full knowledge of time conversion, day time saving in few countries otherwise they may have the faulty results. [ Yes, we agree that it is up to the individual astrologers whether they want to use this sarini or not. But all those who are associated with us are advised not to use this sarini which doesn?t give accurate lagna degrees] 7. As far me is concerned ,I may not be using this but keep at as an manuscript. . I request Mr. Shiv Dev Kalsi Ji and any other

member To verify my findings regarding this sarni. [ Yes, this sarini has an archival value like all old and obsolete tools which get replaced by modern and far more sophisticated and accurate tools ]Respected Lal Kitabee Jee, Kids always learn from the elders. I hereby submit that I learned too much from your discussions. At least you have the guts to come forward to give your views. It is the matter of discussions whether these are wrong or right. As you advised, I have not asked any questions this time. Have I controlled the disease or not?May I give a suggestion for you also. Please don't Jump to

conclusion immediately with a biased mind as you did in Lagan Sarni. RegardsNirmal Kumar Bhardwaj

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[Guest guest]

, Chandra Prakash Tyagi

<cptyagi2007 wrote:

 

Dear Bhardwaj ji,

 

One of your messages was pending to be answered by Lalkitabee ji.

Since he is in mourning and may not be available till the end of the

month, I thought of answering it on his behalf.

 

My answers are in blue after your queries so that none of your

queries go unanswered. This way the answers stay specific and to the

point.

 

Sincerely,

 

Chandra Prakash

 

My Response

 

 

Dear Lalkitabi Jee,

I know that you can never do the translation and give it to the

fellow members. Dear Shukla Ji Break the barriers. Contribute

something for the cause of Lal Kitab. I gave and will continue to

give what material I have with me, to the members. Further, I have

not the habit of making crow on seeing feather ( Mujhay Pankh dekh

kar kauva banaaney kee aadat nahin).

I think you day dreamt too much these days may be you heard me saying

these words( " lalkitab as a quiada of primary class " ) in your dream.

Yes I said this " Let us work on to the other issues related

to the LalKitab which are still to unsolved. " to give a safe and

respectful escape for those who called this sarini as a incorrect,

useless sarni and misleading the other members by giving wrong

logics. You may have seen the Mail of Sh. Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi..I

thank you Lalkitabee ji, your these posts refreshed my earlier work

of astrological studies.

 

[ There has been no effort to mislead the members. We as a group

are convinced that the sarini under discussion should not be used at

all for births in India or abroad. We reiterate once again that the

Sarini is inaccurate, obsolete, and of no use. It might help

calculating the Lagna degrees for a birth around the region it has

been based on, that too after Ayanansh correction. The Sarini can not

help in calculating accurately the Lagna degrees of birth places

beyond the region it is based on.

 

Since the Sarini is calculated for Madras time [ now IST ] it

means the calculations have been done for longitude 82E30.

Calculating the Sarini for IST or Madras time does not mean that the

Sarini becomes applicable for the entire country. For the purposes of

astrology even the IST doesnot become applicable for the entire

country, it too has to be converted into Local Mean Time { LMT ].

Since a Sarini can not be calculated at a longitude alone, the value

of a latitude too has to be added. You need two axis to plot some

thing X axis and Y axis. Once a latitude value is added the sarini

becomes for that place/ city. That is why all sarinis carry a header

informing which city the sarini has been calculated for. For example

the Lagna sarini published in the Vishwa Vijay Panchang of Solan

carries a by-line saying that it has been calculated on the co-

ordinates of Delhi. All times given in the panchang are of Delhi.]

 

 

You are right Lalkitabee Ji, This issue has been discussed in 2004 in

detail. Then What prompted you to make hue and cry over this sarni

now in 2007. And of course you have made the group members to believe

that you have done all the calculations and brought out the Many

errors. Regarding Misleading (GumRahi) , Respected Sir, It is your

mails/calculation which are misleading the members. For example:

 

[ Now the initial pages of the sarini have been uploaded in the

files of the group. The anomalies mentioned are for every one to

verify. We do not gain any thing by proving this Sarini as inaccurate

and out of date]

 

1. You said that Sarni is not of Madras time. It is based upon for a

place in Allahabad or near place and it Aayaansha is wrong and didn't

give any data to the members

I as a group member request you to supply "

a. the basis of your calculation,

 

[ The basis of our calculations is the ganit used in astrology as

given in Grah Laghav. This is the traditional Ganit any student of

astrology has to know.

 

 

A - Yes, the sarini is not calculated at Madras time. It has been

calculated at IST which was earlier known as Madras time. LMT of

Madras is 5hours 21minutes ahead of GMT, where as the IST is 5 hours

30 minutes ahead of GMT. There is a difference of 9 minutes between

the IST and the LMT of Madras. 9 minutes is no small matter.

 

B ? The Latitude used in calculating the Sarini is not of Madras.

Pick up any date from the sarini and verify for your self whether the

co-ordinates of Madras have been used or not. The rising time for

Lagna given in the Sarini can be approximately achieved only if the

co-ordinates are : 82E30 ; 26N0 and Ayanansh 23 degrees. It will

prove that the coordinates are of a place close to the Allahabad-

Varanasi region

 

C- The current ayanansh is 23d58m2s, where as when the sarini came

into vogue the Ayanansh adopted by panchangkars was 23 degrees. The

next ayanansh revision was not due till 1973. Therefore in order to

find out the degrees of Lagna one will have to incorporate the

difference of 58m2s in the result obtained from the sarini. ]

 

 

 

b. All Sarni pages to group members

 

[ The initial pages that we have already uploaded, Shri Kiranjit

kumar ji has promised to upload the rest. Our findings are based on

the pages that we had. If you have some different pages or a

different sarini we will evaluate that and if necessary we will

change our opinion about the sarini. So long as your sarini is the

same which we partly have, our opinion that it is inaccurate and

should not be used for births either in India or abroad stays]

 

c. Basis on which you said that aayaansha is wrong when no year of

printing or Base year is given on this sarni.

 

[ All sarinis printed in various Panchangs and Jantris before 1973

were calculated at ayanansh 23 degrees and the base year was 1938.

The next the corrections for ayanansh 23d30 were made for the 1973

panchangs. Since the Sarini came into existence between 1938 and

1973, the Ayanansh used has to be 23 degrees,]

d. Basis on which you are emphasizing that this sarni is wrong and

inaccurate

 

[ On the basis of empirical study. You yourself pick up any date

from the sarini and see for yourself whether the time of rising and

the end of a sign matches or not. The margin of error that could be

given to a manually calculated sarini and the lagna derived through a

software can be a degree or so. Any thing more than that should be

declared as inaccurate, specially if very sophisticated tools of

finding the Lagnansha are already available ]

 

 

2. You being so learned, misled the younger generation of members by

saying that this sarni give a wrong time makar Sakranti, while there

is no mention of Makar Sakranti at all in this Sarni. If you have the

calculations please supply this for the benefit of the members ?

 

[ Sankrantis are used as reference points by us for our study

because there is not much variation in them. You are free to use any

date and verify the data. Let the group also know the date you have

picked so that each one of us can also cross check for that date.

Picking up a date for verification is not misleading. ]

 

3. you did not clear your stand regarding Makar Sakranti as you said

that it always occur at sunrise of 14th of January every month, while

this is not necessary. ( See Mr. Shiv Dev Kalsi Mail).

 

[ This has already been answered by Pt. Bhooshan Priya ji]

 

Dear Members, As I said earlier I have uploaded the pages available

with me of lagan sarni and here is the link to download

http://lalkitab.tripod.comlagansarni.rar

 

[ Could you please upload those pages in the file section of the

group also as has been done by Bhooshan Priya ji ]

 

Hereunder is my finding regarding this sarni. I am providing this

information after going through extensive calculation work. I have

full calculations with me and can be have from me by email or calling

me at my cellphone.

1. The lagan Sarni is Based upon Madras Time and is absolutely

correct what is mentioned in it heading..

 

[ Yes, but which Latitude has been used to calculate it? A sarini

can not be calculated on the longitude alone. The time reference can

decide the longitude but not the Latitude. Latitude has to be

chosen. What latitude you think has been chosen? No sarini can be

calculated through a longitude alone unless the latitude is also

provided. You can not plot on one axis alone. There have to be two of

them X and Y. Is it calculated at madras latitude ? Before answering

this I would request you to verify the statement]

 

 

2. It is Got published in 1952 ( Most Probabaly)

 

[ That is widely believed. Even if that was not true it would not

make a difference so long as the Sarini has not been based on the

data prior to 1938 ]

 

3. There is nowhere written that it is LalKitab Lagan Sarni

 

[ Do you want to disown the sarini now? It does not matter whether

the word Lal Kitab is written on it or not. So long as it has been

used by Lal Kitabists and some still insist that it be used, it would

always be associated with the Lal Kitab whether the words Lal Kitab

are written on it or not. ]

 

 

4. All Lagan times are correct (Manual Calculation gives variation

0.5 minutes to 2 minutes which is ignorable in manual calculation) as

in 4 minutes ascendant travel only one degree.

 

[ No. It is not true. It has been proved through the exercise done

by Shri Raheja, Varun bhayya and subsequently by me. Now even your

laborious exercise about Aquarius rising at Madras at 6:52 am on

March 1, 1952 has proved that the Sarini is grossly inaccurate.

 

5. No timing of ingression of Sun or any Planet given.

 

[ In a sarini the timings of ingression or the movement of the

planets is never given. For that all the Panchangs carry different

tables. ]

 

 

6. And Finally but not the least it is upto the user to use it or use

any software to calculate Ascendent. From my calculations it is

revealed that one can use this sarni for the birth as per list of

foreign countries as per the method given in this sarni but with a

limitation that this may land up to error of few degrees of ascendant

and few degree error is negligible as far as the LalKitab is

concerned. But it cannot be used for other systems where higher

accuracy of Ascendant is required. With more accurate methods are

available it is likely that very few people may use it. For foreign

birth only those users can try who have full knowledge of time

conversion, day time saving in few countries otherwise they may have

the faulty results.

 

[ Yes, we agree that it is up to the individual astrologers whether

they want to use this sarini or not. But all those who are associated

with us are advised not to use this sarini which doesn?t give

accurate lagna degrees]

 

7. As far me is concerned ,I may not be using this but keep at as an

manuscript. .

I request Mr. Shiv Dev Kalsi Ji and any other member To verify my

findings regarding this sarni.

 

[ Yes, this sarini has an archival value like all old and obsolete

tools which get replaced by modern and far more sophisticated and

accurate tools ]

 

Respected Lal Kitabee Jee, Kids always learn from the elders. I

hereby submit that I learned too much from your discussions. At least

you have the guts to come forward to give your views. It is the

matter of discussions whether these are wrong or right.

As you advised, I have not asked any questions this time. Have I

controlled the disease or not?

May I give a suggestion for you also. Please don't Jump to conclusion

immediately with a biased mind as you did in Lagan Sarni.

 

Regards

Nirmal Kumar Bhardwaj

 

 

 

 

Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here

 

--- End forwarded message ---