Aquarius at Madras / Res. Nirmal Kumar ji

October 21, 2007

Respected Nirmal Kumar ji,

Verifying your data :

Date of birth : March 1, 1952

Time of birth : 6:52 AM

Place of birth : Madras [ 80E15 ; 13N04]

The Acendant acquired is 24Aq10.

Aquarius doesn't rise at 6:52am at Madras as sarini seems to

suggest. Aquarius rose long back and is already over by 24d10'.

Another 24 minutes or so it will setand Pisces would rise.

You and every body else can check this with any sofware.

Since we do not have the March page of the sarini with us, I can not

verify for other dates on March. Could you please upload the March

page here in the group files.

With respect and regards,

Varun Trivedi

, NKB <nirbhar wrote:

>

> Respected Pandit Ji and Kalsi Ji

> I have uploaded the calculations at

> http://lalkitab.tripod.comcalc_asc_sidtime_madras.pdf for

verifying

> the results through the sidereal time method from Lahiri's Table of

> Ascendent. This is a systemetic method of calculating Ascendent

through

> Table of ascendent. I am giving you trouble to check it and

correct the

> errors if any. 1 March 1952 6.52 AM calculations done by me and 1

March

> 1972 6.52 AM are done by Kalsi ji and forwarded to me for recheck.

Our

> finding is that is is got printed in between 1952 to 1972 and is

base upon

> Madras. Sarni is near to correct and can be used for Lalkitab

Expert only,

> who know how to apply drusti to teva.

> Other members may also have a look at this and correct the errors

and

> upload again for the benefit of others

> Regards

> Nirmal Kumar Bhardwaj

>

> On 10/19/07, Shivdev Kalsi <shivdev.kalsi wrote:

> >

> > Dear Bhooshan Priya ji,

> > Your opinion is challenging the entire astrological works like

tevas,

> > kundlis,Mundane made before 1973. Your opinion that

> > ayaansha used in the Lagan Sarnis and planet calculations was 23

degree

> > prior to 1973 is not agreeable by me.On one hand it is called

for precsion

> > of accuracy in ascendent upto seconds &

> > talked about shashtyaansha, on the other hand it is accepteble

that

> > the error/difference of 30-50 minutes is accepted as accurate

prior to 1973.

> >

> > It is one's own priority how to judge and accept the data. You

may be

> > agreeing on your opinion but my views are totaly opposite to

your views.

> > Accuracy can be seen according to the system of astrology, one

opt to

> > use.Lalkitab may not need

> > much accuracy but for other systems much accuracy is required.

> > As far as this sarni or any other lagan sarni is concerned 99%

of our

> > netsavy members may not be

> > using these tables. For remaining 1% users, let them decide

themselves about the accuracy.

> >

> > Bhooshan Ji, I have checked calculations personnaly for this

sarni.There is no error in .I had not much time to go for detailed

calculation for

> > every year since 1952 but in my point of view, It is correct

that it is

> > based upon Madras Time and most probably it is made in 1970+/-

3or 4 years.

> > Mr.Bhardwaj have made an attempt to calculate it for 1952 and

asked me to

> > check for another year he promised me to distibute it to

members. He might

> > have done so.

> > Difference of opinion in discussions are good for the cause.

Please don't

> > Take it otherwise.

> > Yours

> > Shiv Dev Kalsi

> >

> > On 10/18/07, < wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Kalsi ji,

> > >

> > > Since I was away I couldn't respond to your observations in

time. I

> > > am sorry for my delayed response.

> > >

> > > I feel really happy to find that a few more Lal Kitab scholars

are

> > > getting interested in the discussions. It is a good indication

of

> > > things to come.

> > >

> > > ( A ) You are right that in the last decade the Sun might not

have

> > > been in the Capricorn at the time of Sun rise on January

14th . But

> > > we are not talking of the current decade, or of the decade

earlier

> > > to that. We are talking about the years 1952 and the years

before

> > > that because it is widely believed that the Lagna Sarini under

> > > discussion was already in vogue around 1952.

> > >

> > > Therefore the sankranti data that you have provided isn't

applicable

> > > to the time frame under discussion.

> > >

> > > Just a bit of the background of Sarini preparation in general.

> > >

> > > Most of the Sarinis in use before 1973 were based at 23 degree

> > > ayanansh with the cut-off date 1938 when the Ayanansh got to 23

> > > degrees. Some reputed Panchangs and Jantris revised their Lagna

> > > Sarini in 1973 when the Ayanansh got to 23 degrees 30 minutes.

The

> > > next revision is due for 2010 when the ananash will get to 24

> > > degrees.

> > >

> > > Therefore in the context of the Sarini under discussion, we are

> > > talking about the Makar sankranti on January 14th on and before

> > > 1952. Since the 23d30 ayanansh modification wasn't due till

1973 it

> > > was assumed that the Sarinis available in the Panchangs and the

> > > Jantris printed prior to 1952 were reflecting the calculations

at 23

> > > degree ayanansh.

> > >

> > > Thus we selected the following non-variable parameters to

evaluate

> > > the Sarini:

> > >

> > > Makar Sankranti on 14th January

> > > Ayanansh 23 degrees

> > > The time reference is 82E30 which is now known as IST and

earlier

> > > was known as Madras Time.

> > > Sun rise at IST [ 82E30 ] of 6 :58 am on January 14th.

> > >

> > > Now let us cross check which Rashi [ zodiac sign ] the Sun was

on

> > > January 14th at sun rise 6:58 am IST or what was known as

Madras

> > > time earlier ;ref 82E30. We examined four years after 1952 and

four

> > > years before 1952. Here are the results for you to verify:

> > >

> > > Year position of the Sun at sunrise

> > > [14th Jan] At 6:58 am at 82E30

> > > { IST or earlier Madras time }

> > >

> > > 1956 0cp34

> > > 1955 0cp50

> > > 1954 1cp05

> > > 1953 1cp21

> > > 1952 0cp35

> > > 1951 0cp51

> > > 1950 1cp07

> > > 1949 1cp23

> > > 1948 0cp37

> > >

> > > During all these years the Sun is already in the sign

Capricorn [

> > > makar ] at the time of the Sunrise. This means that the

Sankranti [

> > > sun moving to the next sign] has already taken place much

before the

> > > sun rise.

> > >

> > > ( B ) Yes, once again you are right that the next lagna starts

4

> > > minutes early.

> > > But the Lagna Sarini under discussion shows a difference of

just 1

> > > minute between January 13th and the 14th. Not only that, at

places

> > > the difference is shown to be 5 minutes between the rising

time of

> > > the Lagna the next day. You will find a difference of 3

minutes also

> > > at a few places. Would that be called consistency and

uniformity?

> > > You would agree that every mathematical table has to be

consistent

> > > and conforming to the principles.

> > >

> > > Both the above statements can be verified from the January

page of

> > > the Sarini I have uploaded in the file section.

> > >

> > > Dear Kalsi ji, I have no motive to prove this Sarini to be

> > > inaccurate. I am a student of Lal Kitab system myself and I

would

> > > gain nothing by declaring the Sarini inaccurate if it isn't?

At the

> > > same time would prefer any tool being used in astrology to be

as

> > > perfect as it can be. We cannot keep using tools that are not

> > > precise.

> > >

> > > For me it is purely an academic discussion, our approach has

been

> > > dispassionate, objective and based on facts. The methodology

we have

> > > used is scientific and uniformly applicable.

> > >

> > > I once again welcome your initiative to participate in the

> > > discussion.

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > > Bhooshan Priya

> > >

> > > Dear Moderator and fellow members,

> > > First of all I thank the unknown group member who sent me the

link

> > > for copies of few pages of Lagan Sarni of Month March.

> > > Though I am not well versed with LalKitab But as far as vedic

> > > astrology is concerned, I am in the opinion that these members

are

> > > just beating the wrong drum. I cite few messages below from

few of

> > > the fellow members, I am giving my point of difference with the

> > > following views of members:-

> > > Pt. Bhooshan Priya & LalKitabee Ji

> > > Point No.1 - Makar Sakranti

> > > The concept of Priya Ji is wrong. No doubt Sun enters in makar

Rashi

> > > on 14th of every year. But the time is not the sunrise of the

day.

> > > here I cite few examples of previous years. You can verify

from the

> > > panchangs:

> > > Year 2005: Sun entered Makar on 14th January at (29.42) which

is

> > > 05.42 AM of 15th January and that too before the sunrise

> > > Year 2006:Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 11.55 AM and

that is

> > > at noon not at the sunrise

> > > Year 2007:Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 18.36 PM and

that is

> > > at evening not at the sunrise

> > > Year 2008 : Sun will enter Makar on 14th January at ( 24.08)

which is

> > > at 00.08 Hrs of 15th January and that is not at the sunrise

> > > Friends Therefore the concepts of both these astrologers are

wrong

> > > and misleading.

> > > Point No. 2. : Sum of Lagan Timing will be 24 Hours.

> > > . Friends Earth rotates arround sun and completes it the

journey in

> > > one year. in other words if we treat the Earth as stationary

and by

> > > the Law of relativity we can say that Sun moves and complete

the

> > > journey in One year which is approximately 1 degree per day.

with

> > > the result the rising time of lagan will change each day

> > > approximately 4 minutes early. There fore when you calculate

the

> > > difference of time you will always encounter the difference of

4

> > > minutes or you have to add 4minutes to this timing. For

example if

> > > rising time of a Lagna is 12.14 minutes on first day then it

will

> > > will be 12.10 minutes on next day. This difference will always

be 23-

> > > 56 Hrs. The contention of Bhoosahn Priya Ji is wrong that the

sarni

> > > shows the difference of one minutes per day. It shows the

exactly 4

> > > minutes difference perday

> > > Regarding the place for which the Lagan Sarni is Based Priya

Ji may

> > > be right/wrong. because I have not full sarni with me. Friends

Earth

> > > revolves arround it poles and complete it revolutin in 24

hours. If

> > > you a point is fixed out side the earth then you will find it

> > > accurately as 24 hours. If that fixed point is also moving

then you

> > > will find difference wrt to that moving point every day. That

is

> > > what happens in Mother nature. Fixed Point Sun is moving by one

> > > Degree per day. And Earth covers 1 degree in 4 minutes in

> > > revoloution. That is why the Lagan changes by -4 minutes per

day.

> > > LalKitabee jee is right that earth takes 24 hours in rotation

but it

> > > takes 23-56 hours to reach the point which is moving 1 degree

per

> > > day.

> > >

> > > Point of difference with Miglani Ji:

> > > Point No: 1 House in Divisional Chakras:

> > > First of all I Clarify that Houses are Fixed as per natal

Charts.

> > > My friend is wrong that these houses also move in Divisional

> > > Charts. I dont Know why and when these chakras had been given

the

> > > name of Kundlis. Basically these are known as Nahansha, Hora

etc etc

> > > Chakras, Those who read the KP will know how these chakras to

be

> > > used. Planet Position is fixed in natal Chart and it connot be

> > > shifted. These planets will be sitting in the Navaansha, and

various

> > > other anshas owned by other planets. In these anshas the

concept of

> > > Natal Drishtis are not applicable.

> > > Friends the contention of Miglani Ji is wrong and agaisnst the

rules

> > > of vedic concepts.

> > > Repected Bhooshan Priya Ji, LalKitabee Ji, and Miglani , I

have not

> > > written this to have any malafide intentions. I have the

difference

> > > of opinion That I gave. I request you to please dont take it

> > > personally.

> > > Yours

> > > Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi

> > >

> > > <%

40>,

> > > " Shivdev Kalsi "

> > > <shivdev.kalsi@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Moderator and fellow members,

> > > > First of all I thank the unknown group member who sent me

the link

> > > for

> > > > copies of few pages of Lagan Sarni of Month March.

> > > > Though I am not well versed with LalKitab But as far as vedic

> > > astrology is

> > > > concerned, I am in the opinion that these members are just

beating

> > > the

> > > > wrong drum. I

> > > > cite few messages below from few of the fellow

> > > > members, I am giving my point of difference with the

following

> > > views

> > > > of members:-

> > > > *Pt. Bhooshan Priya & LalKitabee Ji

> > > > Point No.1 - Makar Sakranti

> > > > *The concept of Priya Ji is wrong. No doubt Sun enters in

makar

> > > Rashi on

> > > > 14th of every year. But the time is not the sunrise of the

day.

> > > here I cite

> > > > few examples of previous years. You can verify from the

panchangs:

> > > > *Year 2005: Sun entered Makar on 14th January at (29.42)

which is

> > > 05.42 AM

> > > > of 15th January and that too before the sunrise

> > > > **Year 2006:**Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 11.55 AM

and

> > > that

> > > > is at noon not at the sunrise

> > > > ** **Year 2007:**Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 18.36

PM and

> > > that

> > > > is at evening not at the sunrise*

> > > > *Year 2008 : **Sun will enter Makar on 14th January at (

24.08)

> > > which is at

> > > > 00.08 Hrs of 15th January and that is not at the sunrise

> > > > *Friends Therefore the concepts of both these astrologers are

> > > wrong and

> > > > misleading.

> > > > *Point No. 2. : Sum of Lagan Timing will be 24 Hours.

> > > > ** *. Friends Earth rotates arround sun and completes it the

> > > journey

> > > > in one year. in other words if

> > > > we treat the Earth as stationary and by the Law of

relativity we

> > > can say

> > > > that

> > > > Sun moves and complete the journey in One year which is

> > > approximately

> > > > 1 degree per day.

> > > > with the result the rising time of lagan will change each day

> > > approximately

> > > > 4

> > > > minutes early. There fore when you calculate the difference

of time

> > > > you will always encounter the difference of 4 minutes

> > > > or you have to add 4minutes to this timing. For example if

rising

> > > time of a

> > > > Lagna is 12.14 minutes on first day then it will will be

12.10

> > > minutes on

> > > > next day. This difference will always be 23-56

> > > > Hrs. The contention of Bhoosahn Priya Ji is wrong that the

sarni

> > > shows

> > > > the difference of one minutes per day. It shows the exactly

> > > > 4 minutes difference perday

> > > > Regarding the place for which the Lagan Sarni is Based Priya

Ji

> > > may be

> > > > right/wrong. because I have not full sarni with me. Friends

> > > > Earth revolves arround it poles and complete it revolutin in

24

> > > hours.

> > > > If you a point is fixed out side the earth then you will

find it

> > > > accurately as 24 hours. If that fixed point is also moving

then you

> > > > will find difference wrt to that moving point every day.

That is

> > > what

> > > > happens in Mother nature. Fixed Point Sun is moving by one

Degree

> > > per

> > > > day. And Earth covers 1 degree in 4 minutes in revoloution.

That is

> > > > why the Lagan changes by -4 minutes per day.

> > > > LalKitabee jee is right that earth takes 24 hours in

rotation but

> > > it takes

> > > > 23-56 hours to reach the point which is moving 1 degree per

day.

> > > >

> > > > *Point of difference with Miglani Ji:

> > > > Point No: 1 House in Divisional Chakras:

> > > > * First of all I Clarify that Houses are Fixed as per natal

> > > Charts. My

> > > > friend is wrong that these houses also move in Divisional

Charts.

> > > > I dont Know why and when these chakras had been given the

name of

> > > > Kundlis. Basically these are known as Nahansha, Hora etc etc

> > > Chakras,

> > > > Those who read the KP will know how these chakras to be used.

> > > Planet

> > > > Position is fixed in natal Chart and it connot be shifted.

These

> > > > planets will be sitting in the Navaansha, and various

> > > > other anshas owned by other planets. In these anshas the

concept

> > > of

> > > > Natal Drishtis are

> > > > not applicable.

> > > > *Friends the contention of Miglani

> > > > Ji is wrong and agaisnst the rules of vedic concepts.

> > > > *Repected Bhooshan Priya Ji, LalKitabee Ji, and Miglani , I

have

> > > not written

> > > > this to

> > > > have any malafide intentions. I have the difference of

opinion

> > > That I

> > > > gave. I request you to please dont take it personally.

> > > > Yours

> > > > Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi

> > > >

> > > > *

> > > > **

> > > > *

> > > >

> > > > *LalKitab Discussion Group

> > > > msg:942

> > > >

> > > > Re: Lagn sarani : an inaccurate document

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kulbir ji,

> > > >

> > > > The Lagna Sarini document that you have mentioned is not only

> > > > inaccurate it is useless also. When I say `inaccurate' and

> > > `useless'

> > > > I say with full responsibility.

> > > >

> > > > Lal Kitab might claim to have done away with Rasi and

Nakshatra,

> > > but

> > > > it cannot do away with Lagna. Ascendant is the keystone for

all

> > > > systems of astrology, including the Lal Kitab. The Lagna or

> > > > ascendant has to be very accurate and precise for all

arithmetical

> > > > calculations needed in astrology. If the ascendant is not

accurate

> > > > the subsequent divisions [ varga ] like hora, dreshkran ,

> > > > dwadashansh etc up to shashthiansh [ 1/60th of a sign ] will

be

> > > > inaccurate. Therefore the Lagna has to be sookshm [

precise ] and

> > > > not sthool [ approximation]. I know that the Lal Kitab

doesn't need

> > > > the accuracy of the order I am talking about, nevertheless

it can

> > > > not be ignored if we are evaluating an astrology tool. A

Sarini is

> > > a

> > > > tool used in astrology and therefore has to be evaluated on

the

> > > > standards set for it.

> > > >

> > > > A few years ago in Delhi an associate of Pt. Rupchand ji

showed me

> > > > the Lagna sarini used by Lal Kitab practitioners. I took that

> > > > opportunity to study and evaluate it. It is a very tedious

task

> > > > because it involves reverse engineering.

> > > >

> > > > I found the following drawbacks in that Lagna Sarini :

> > > >

> > > > [ 1 ] The Lagna sarini is drawn at Ayanansh 23degrees. The

current

> > > [

> > > > 2007 ] Lahiri ayanansha is at 23deg 58min 2sec. Therefore

any Lagna

> > > > worked out through this Sarini will be off by 58 min and

2sec [

> > > here

> > > > the word min and sec mean the minute and seconds of a degree

and

> > > not

> > > > time]

> > > >

> > > > [ 2 ] The Sarini is drawn for the Longitude 82E0 and

Latitude 26N0.

> > > > This place will be near Allahabad Therefore the Ascendant

degrees

> > > > shown by this Sarini will be for a birth near Allahabad.

Using this

> > > > Sarini for any birth in Punjab, or for that matter any where

else

> > > in

> > > > India, will be criminal in astrological terms.

> > > >

> > > > Before I move on to point out other mistakes in the Sarini I

would

> > > > request any one to find out for himself as to what I have

said is

> > > > true or not.

> > > >

> > > > Whenever we have to find out the co-ordinates of any Lagna

Sarini,

> > > > the most appropriate parameter to start from is a Surya

sankranti

> > > > day. There are 12 sankrantis in a year. A sankranti is a day

when

> > > > the Sun moves to the next Rasi [ zodiac sign] . These

sankrantis of

> > > > the Sun fall on the same date every year.

> > > >

> > > > As an example let's take up the Makar Sankranti day. It

falls on

> > > > January 14th every year. The astrology dictum is `the sun

will rise

> > > > in the first degree of the sign on that day'. Therefore the

> > > > Ascendant at the time of the sunrise on the 14th January

will be

> > > > within the first degree of Makar [ Capricorn]

> > > >

> > > > The time of Capricorn rising on the 14th of January shown in

the

> > > > Lagna sarini under discussion is 6:55am and lasts till 8:37am

> > > >

> > > > Now take up any kundali software, change the ayanansh to

23deg [ ie

> > > > 58'-2 " less than current Lahiri ayanansh ] feed the data :

birth at

> > > > 6:55am at 82E0 ; 26N0 and see for your self that the

ascendant will

> > > > be 0cap31 ; this value is within the first degree of

Capricorn.

> > > >

> > > > This will prove my contentions that the Sarini is drawn:

> > > > ( i )at 23deg ayanansha which is 58':2 " less than what is

today

> > > > ( ii ) for longitude 82E0 and Latitude 26N0 [hence not

applicable

> > > > for the rest of the country]

> > > >

> > > > Now coming to other misprints amounting to mistakes in the

lagna

> > > > sarini under discussion:

> > > >

> > > > [ 1 ] Add up the duration of all the 12 Lagna for any day.

The

> > > total

> > > > doesn't come to 24 hours. Now who will believe that the earth

> > > > revolved one complete circle on its axis in less than 24

hours. The

> > > > total of all the 12 Lagna duration has to be 24 hours, no

less no

> > > > more.

> > > >

> > > > [ 2 ] From January till the end of December the time of

rising of

> > > > every lagna keeps reducing by 4 minutes every day i.e. every

lagna

> > > > rises 4 minutes before its previous day rising time.

> > > > In the sarini have a look at the rising time of lagna on the

> > > January

> > > > 13th and January 14th. The difference printed is just one

minute.

> > > > This mistake is carried on all along. No body will believe

that the

> > > > Lagna which rises 4 minutes early every next day, will rise

only

> > > one

> > > > minute early on that day.

> > > >

> > > > These movements are astronomically controlled; they are not

> > > > subjective. These are universal truths.

> > > >

> > > > Summarizing, I find the Sarini of no use whatsoever. Yes for

some

> > > > people it might have a sentimental value but it has no

astrological

> > > > value. In an academic scrutiny sentiments do not count, the

> > > findings

> > > > are based on objective parameters.

> > > >

> > > > If some one turns up and says that the Lal Kitab doesn't

need the

> > > > kind of precision I have talked about, in that case they

need not

> > > > depend on the Sarini under discussion. Every Panchang

published

> > > > carries a sarini based on the place it is published from.

They can

> > > > use that sarini for sthool [ approximate ] Lagna , because

the

> > > Lagna

> > > > is going to be the same for almost two hours for the major

part of

> > > > India.

> > > >

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > > Bhooshan Priya

> > > > msg:957

> > > > Re: Lagn sarani : an inaccurate document

> > > >

> > > > Respected Bhooshan JI

> > > >

> > > > I also tried to solve this puzzle of sarani a couple of

months

> > > > before.But I found that the latitude & longitude were near

about

> > > > Varanasi = 82E30 25N20. at 23 ayananshas.

> > > >

> > > > I think this Saarani blongs to the area of Varanasi

(U.P.).In my

> > > > opinion also, this sarani cant be logical for the abroad

borned in

> > > > these days. I think all other experts can through some light,

> > > having

> > > > some authentic & historical key-pages about it.Otherwise its

no use

> > > > in my opinion.I have a clear concept that--- Chahey chandar

ko

> > > khada

> > > > ghodaa banaa diyaa jaaye, nakshattar bhi bhoola diye jaayain

raashi

> > > > ko bhi chhod diyaa jaaye.Fir bhi lagan sarani kee baat

chalney par

> > > > Dharatee(EARTH) ka ghoomnaa kabhi bhi nazar andaaz nahi

kiyaa ja

> > > > saktaa.Kyonki lagan saarni seedhey seedhey isse sambandh

rakhtee

> > > hai.

> > > > U try these latitude & longitudes also plz for more

confirmation.I

> > > > will also be satisfied that one is here who can understand

this

> > > logic.

> > > >

> > > > With Regards

> > > >

> > > > Pt. Lalkitabee

> > > > www.lalkitabee.com

> > > > Mb. 9812020001

> > > > *

> > > > *Lalkitab Group msg:10478

> > > > Re: Lagn sarani IS AN INACCURATE DOCUMENT!!!

> > > >

> > > > Dear Bhatia ji,

> > > >

> > > > You seem to be misinformed about the Vedic astrology.

> > > >

> > > > Rahu and Ketu being together in the same house or Mercury

and Venus

> > > > being 7 houses away from the Sun is a Vedic astrology

concept.

> > > There

> > > > is nothing illogical or un-vedic about it. The Vedic

astrology had

> > > > long back propounded this concept. The Lal Kitab has just

followed

> > > > it.

> > > >

> > > > Rahu and Ketu not only can be but compulsorily have to be in

the

> > > > same house in the following TEN divisional charts:

> > > >

> > > > D-2

> > > > D-5

> > > > D-6

> > > > D-8

> > > > D-16

> > > > D-20

> > > > D-24

> > > > D-30

> > > > D-40

> > > > D-45

> > > >

> > > > In divisional charts Venus can be 180 degrees away from the

Sun and

> > > > so can be Mercury. Astronomically Venus cannot be more than

49

> > > > degrees away from the Sun.

> > > >

> > > > But the things are different with the Janma Kundali. Since

the

> > > Janma

> > > > Kundali is a map of the sky at the time of birth, the

planets,

> > > > including the nodes, have to be shown or plotted as they

appear in

> > > > the sky under the astronomical rules. Similarly the

Ascendant has

> > > to

> > > > be the sign, which is rising at the horizon at the time of

birth.

> > > > The accuracy of the Ascendant cannot be compromised.

> > > >

> > > > Even the Lal Kitab follows the Vedic rules for the Janma

Kundali.

> > > It

> > > > is only in the Varsh Phal chart that the Rahu and Ketu can

be in

> > > the

> > > > adjacent houses and Venus and mercury 7 houses away. In a

kundali

> > > > prepared through Palmistry both the Rahu and the Ketu can be

in the

> > > > same house. None of the above is against the principles of

vedic

> > > > astrology.

> > > >

> > > > Therefore the argument that if we accept Rahu and ketu

together in

> > > > the same house or in adjacent houses, might as well accept an

> > > > incorrect ascendant calculated through an inaccurate Sarini,

> > > doesn't

> > > > hold good.

> > > >

> > > > I agree with you when you say that those who do not have

faith on

> > > > the Sarini because it is inaccurate are free to keep away

from it,

> > > > or reject it as an obsolete tool.

> > > >

> > > > You have said in no uncertain terms that you would continue

to use

> > > > the same Sarini. I appreciate your stand.

> > > >

> > > > *

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > --

> > Dr. Shiv Dev Kalsi,

> > Jyotish Rishi (AIFAS)

> > Consultant (Vedic Astrology)

> >

>

October 23, 2007

Dear Varun Ji.

You are right. Aquarius did not rise at that time. In fact it is not

aquarius it Pisces rising at that time. Actualy i have concentrated

on the degree only while working on the excel sheet. It is aquarius

may be left indvertantly to be corrected of previous permutations

Therefore aqaurioa as written in sheet be read as Pisces.

Regards

Nirmal Kumar Bhardwaj

,

" varun_trvd " <varun_trvd wrote:

>

> Respected Nirmal Kumar ji,

>

> Verifying your data :

>

> Date of birth : March 1, 1952

> Time of birth : 6:52 AM

> Place of birth : Madras [ 80E15 ; 13N04]

>

> The Acendant acquired is 24Aq10.

>

> Aquarius doesn't rise at 6:52am at Madras as sarini seems to

> suggest. Aquarius rose long back and is already over by 24d10'.

> Another 24 minutes or so it will setand Pisces would rise.

>

> You and every body else can check this with any sofware.

>

> Since we do not have the March page of the sarini with us, I can

not

> verify for other dates on March. Could you please upload the March

> page here in the group files.

>

> With respect and regards,

>

> Varun Trivedi

>

, NKB <nirbhar@> wrote:

> >

> > Respected Pandit Ji and Kalsi Ji

> > I have uploaded the calculations at

> > http://lalkitab.tripod.comcalc_asc_sidtime_madras.pdf for

> verifying

> > the results through the sidereal time method from Lahiri's Table

of

> > Ascendent. This is a systemetic method of calculating Ascendent

> through

> > Table of ascendent. I am giving you trouble to check it and

> correct the

> > errors if any. 1 March 1952 6.52 AM calculations done by me and 1

> March

> > 1972 6.52 AM are done by Kalsi ji and forwarded to me for

recheck.

> Our

> > finding is that is is got printed in between 1952 to 1972 and is

> base upon

> > Madras. Sarni is near to correct and can be used for Lalkitab

> Expert only,

> > who know how to apply drusti to teva.

> > Other members may also have a look at this and correct the errors

> and

> > upload again for the benefit of others

> > Regards

> > Nirmal Kumar Bhardwaj

> >

> > On 10/19/07, Shivdev Kalsi <shivdev.kalsi@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Bhooshan Priya ji,

> > > Your opinion is challenging the entire astrological works like

> tevas,

> > > kundlis,Mundane made before 1973. Your opinion that

> > > ayaansha used in the Lagan Sarnis and planet calculations was

23

> degree

> > > prior to 1973 is not agreeable by me.On one hand it is called

> for precsion

> > > of accuracy in ascendent upto seconds &

> > > talked about shashtyaansha, on the other hand it is accepteble

> that

> > > the error/difference of 30-50 minutes is accepted as accurate

> prior to 1973.

> > >

> > > It is one's own priority how to judge and accept the data. You

> may be

> > > agreeing on your opinion but my views are totaly opposite to

> your views.

> > > Accuracy can be seen according to the system of astrology, one

> opt to

> > > use.Lalkitab may not need

> > > much accuracy but for other systems much accuracy is required.

> > > As far as this sarni or any other lagan sarni is concerned 99%

> of our

> > > netsavy members may not be

> > > using these tables. For remaining 1% users, let them decide

> themselves about the accuracy.

> > >

> > > Bhooshan Ji, I have checked calculations personnaly for this

> sarni.There is no error in .I had not much time to go for detailed

> calculation for

> > > every year since 1952 but in my point of view, It is correct

> that it is

> > > based upon Madras Time and most probably it is made in 1970+/-

> 3or 4 years.

> > > Mr.Bhardwaj have made an attempt to calculate it for 1952 and

> asked me to

> > > check for another year he promised me to distibute it to

> members. He might

> > > have done so.

> > > Difference of opinion in discussions are good for the cause.

> Please don't

> > > Take it otherwise.

> > > Yours

> > > Shiv Dev Kalsi

> > >

> > > On 10/18/07, <@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kalsi ji,

> > > >

> > > > Since I was away I couldn't respond to your observations in

> time. I

> > > > am sorry for my delayed response.

> > > >

> > > > I feel really happy to find that a few more Lal Kitab

scholars

> are

> > > > getting interested in the discussions. It is a good

indication

> of

> > > > things to come.

> > > >

> > > > ( A ) You are right that in the last decade the Sun might not

> have

> > > > been in the Capricorn at the time of Sun rise on January

> 14th . But

> > > > we are not talking of the current decade, or of the decade

> earlier

> > > > to that. We are talking about the years 1952 and the years

> before

> > > > that because it is widely believed that the Lagna Sarini under

> > > > discussion was already in vogue around 1952.

> > > >

> > > > Therefore the sankranti data that you have provided isn't

> applicable

> > > > to the time frame under discussion.

> > > >

> > > > Just a bit of the background of Sarini preparation in general.

> > > >

> > > > Most of the Sarinis in use before 1973 were based at 23 degree

> > > > ayanansh with the cut-off date 1938 when the Ayanansh got to

23

> > > > degrees. Some reputed Panchangs and Jantris revised their

Lagna

> > > > Sarini in 1973 when the Ayanansh got to 23 degrees 30

minutes.

> The

> > > > next revision is due for 2010 when the ananash will get to 24

> > > > degrees.

> > > >

> > > > Therefore in the context of the Sarini under discussion, we

are

> > > > talking about the Makar sankranti on January 14th on and

before

> > > > 1952. Since the 23d30 ayanansh modification wasn't due till

> 1973 it

> > > > was assumed that the Sarinis available in the Panchangs and

the

> > > > Jantris printed prior to 1952 were reflecting the

calculations

> at 23

> > > > degree ayanansh.

> > > >

> > > > Thus we selected the following non-variable parameters to

> evaluate

> > > > the Sarini:

> > > >

> > > > Makar Sankranti on 14th January

> > > > Ayanansh 23 degrees

> > > > The time reference is 82E30 which is now known as IST and

> earlier

> > > > was known as Madras Time.

> > > > Sun rise at IST [ 82E30 ] of 6 :58 am on January 14th.

> > > >

> > > > Now let us cross check which Rashi [ zodiac sign ] the Sun

was

> on

> > > > January 14th at sun rise 6:58 am IST or what was known as

> Madras

> > > > time earlier ;ref 82E30. We examined four years after 1952

and

> four

> > > > years before 1952. Here are the results for you to verify:

> > > >

> > > > Year position of the Sun at sunrise

> > > > [14th Jan] At 6:58 am at 82E30

> > > > { IST or earlier Madras time }

> > > >

> > > > 1956 0cp34

> > > > 1955 0cp50

> > > > 1954 1cp05

> > > > 1953 1cp21

> > > > 1952 0cp35

> > > > 1951 0cp51

> > > > 1950 1cp07

> > > > 1949 1cp23

> > > > 1948 0cp37

> > > >

> > > > During all these years the Sun is already in the sign

> Capricorn [

> > > > makar ] at the time of the Sunrise. This means that the

> Sankranti [

> > > > sun moving to the next sign] has already taken place much

> before the

> > > > sun rise.

> > > >

> > > > ( B ) Yes, once again you are right that the next lagna

starts

> 4

> > > > minutes early.

> > > > But the Lagna Sarini under discussion shows a difference of

> just 1

> > > > minute between January 13th and the 14th. Not only that, at

> places

> > > > the difference is shown to be 5 minutes between the rising

> time of

> > > > the Lagna the next day. You will find a difference of 3

> minutes also

> > > > at a few places. Would that be called consistency and

> uniformity?

> > > > You would agree that every mathematical table has to be

> consistent

> > > > and conforming to the principles.

> > > >

> > > > Both the above statements can be verified from the January

> page of

> > > > the Sarini I have uploaded in the file section.

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kalsi ji, I have no motive to prove this Sarini to be

> > > > inaccurate. I am a student of Lal Kitab system myself and I

> would

> > > > gain nothing by declaring the Sarini inaccurate if it isn't?

> At the

> > > > same time would prefer any tool being used in astrology to be

> as

> > > > perfect as it can be. We cannot keep using tools that are not

> > > > precise.

> > > >

> > > > For me it is purely an academic discussion, our approach has

> been

> > > > dispassionate, objective and based on facts. The methodology

> we have

> > > > used is scientific and uniformly applicable.

> > > >

> > > > I once again welcome your initiative to participate in the

> > > > discussion.

> > > >

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > > Bhooshan Priya

> > > >

> > > > Dear Moderator and fellow members,

> > > > First of all I thank the unknown group member who sent me the

> link

> > > > for copies of few pages of Lagan Sarni of Month March.

> > > > Though I am not well versed with LalKitab But as far as vedic

> > > > astrology is concerned, I am in the opinion that these

members

> are

> > > > just beating the wrong drum. I cite few messages below from

> few of

> > > > the fellow members, I am giving my point of difference with

the

> > > > following views of members:-

> > > > Pt. Bhooshan Priya & LalKitabee Ji

> > > > Point No.1 - Makar Sakranti

> > > > The concept of Priya Ji is wrong. No doubt Sun enters in

makar

> Rashi

> > > > on 14th of every year. But the time is not the sunrise of the

> day.

> > > > here I cite few examples of previous years. You can verify

> from the

> > > > panchangs:

> > > > Year 2005: Sun entered Makar on 14th January at (29.42) which

> is

> > > > 05.42 AM of 15th January and that too before the sunrise

> > > > Year 2006:Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 11.55 AM and

> that is

> > > > at noon not at the sunrise

> > > > Year 2007:Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 18.36 PM and

> that is

> > > > at evening not at the sunrise

> > > > Year 2008 : Sun will enter Makar on 14th January at ( 24.08)

> which is

> > > > at 00.08 Hrs of 15th January and that is not at the sunrise

> > > > Friends Therefore the concepts of both these astrologers are

> wrong

> > > > and misleading.

> > > > Point No. 2. : Sum of Lagan Timing will be 24 Hours.

> > > > . Friends Earth rotates arround sun and completes it the

> journey in

> > > > one year. in other words if we treat the Earth as stationary

> and by

> > > > the Law of relativity we can say that Sun moves and complete

> the

> > > > journey in One year which is approximately 1 degree per day.

> with

> > > > the result the rising time of lagan will change each day

> > > > approximately 4 minutes early. There fore when you calculate

> the

> > > > difference of time you will always encounter the difference

of

> 4

> > > > minutes or you have to add 4minutes to this timing. For

> example if

> > > > rising time of a Lagna is 12.14 minutes on first day then it

> will

> > > > will be 12.10 minutes on next day. This difference will

always

> be 23-

> > > > 56 Hrs. The contention of Bhoosahn Priya Ji is wrong that the

> sarni

> > > > shows the difference of one minutes per day. It shows the

> exactly 4

> > > > minutes difference perday

> > > > Regarding the place for which the Lagan Sarni is Based Priya

> Ji may

> > > > be right/wrong. because I have not full sarni with me.

Friends

> Earth

> > > > revolves arround it poles and complete it revolutin in 24

> hours. If

> > > > you a point is fixed out side the earth then you will find it

> > > > accurately as 24 hours. If that fixed point is also moving

> then you

> > > > will find difference wrt to that moving point every day. That

> is

> > > > what happens in Mother nature. Fixed Point Sun is moving by

one

> > > > Degree per day. And Earth covers 1 degree in 4 minutes in

> > > > revoloution. That is why the Lagan changes by -4 minutes per

> day.

> > > > LalKitabee jee is right that earth takes 24 hours in rotation

> but it

> > > > takes 23-56 hours to reach the point which is moving 1 degree

> per

> > > > day.

> > > >

> > > > Point of difference with Miglani Ji:

> > > > Point No: 1 House in Divisional Chakras:

> > > > First of all I Clarify that Houses are Fixed as per natal

> Charts.

> > > > My friend is wrong that these houses also move in Divisional

> > > > Charts. I dont Know why and when these chakras had been given

> the

> > > > name of Kundlis. Basically these are known as Nahansha, Hora

> etc etc

> > > > Chakras, Those who read the KP will know how these chakras to

> be

> > > > used. Planet Position is fixed in natal Chart and it connot be

> > > > shifted. These planets will be sitting in the Navaansha, and

> various

> > > > other anshas owned by other planets. In these anshas the

> concept of

> > > > Natal Drishtis are not applicable.

> > > > Friends the contention of Miglani Ji is wrong and agaisnst

the

> rules

> > > > of vedic concepts.

> > > > Repected Bhooshan Priya Ji, LalKitabee Ji, and Miglani , I

> have not

> > > > written this to have any malafide intentions. I have the

> difference

> > > > of opinion That I gave. I request you to please dont take it

> > > > personally.

> > > > Yours

> > > > Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi

> > > >

> > > > --- In

<%

> 40>,

> > > > " Shivdev Kalsi "

> > > > <shivdev.kalsi@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Moderator and fellow members,

> > > > > First of all I thank the unknown group member who sent me

> the link

> > > > for

> > > > > copies of few pages of Lagan Sarni of Month March.

> > > > > Though I am not well versed with LalKitab But as far as

vedic

> > > > astrology is

> > > > > concerned, I am in the opinion that these members are just

> beating

> > > > the

> > > > > wrong drum. I

> > > > > cite few messages below from few of the fellow

> > > > > members, I am giving my point of difference with the

> following

> > > > views

> > > > > of members:-

> > > > > *Pt. Bhooshan Priya & LalKitabee Ji

> > > > > Point No.1 - Makar Sakranti

> > > > > *The concept of Priya Ji is wrong. No doubt Sun enters in

> makar

> > > > Rashi on

> > > > > 14th of every year. But the time is not the sunrise of the

> day.

> > > > here I cite

> > > > > few examples of previous years. You can verify from the

> panchangs:

> > > > > *Year 2005: Sun entered Makar on 14th January at (29.42)

> which is

> > > > 05.42 AM

> > > > > of 15th January and that too before the sunrise

> > > > > **Year 2006:**Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 11.55 AM

> and

> > > > that

> > > > > is at noon not at the sunrise

> > > > > ** **Year 2007:**Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 18.36

> PM and

> > > > that

> > > > > is at evening not at the sunrise*

> > > > > *Year 2008 : **Sun will enter Makar on 14th January at (

> 24.08)

> > > > which is at

> > > > > 00.08 Hrs of 15th January and that is not at the sunrise

> > > > > *Friends Therefore the concepts of both these astrologers

are

> > > > wrong and

> > > > > misleading.

> > > > > *Point No. 2. : Sum of Lagan Timing will be 24 Hours.

> > > > > ** *. Friends Earth rotates arround sun and completes it the

> > > > journey

> > > > > in one year. in other words if

> > > > > we treat the Earth as stationary and by the Law of

> relativity we

> > > > can say

> > > > > that

> > > > > Sun moves and complete the journey in One year which is

> > > > approximately

> > > > > 1 degree per day.

> > > > > with the result the rising time of lagan will change each

day

> > > > approximately

> > > > > 4

> > > > > minutes early. There fore when you calculate the difference

> of time

> > > > > you will always encounter the difference of 4 minutes

> > > > > or you have to add 4minutes to this timing. For example if

> rising

> > > > time of a

> > > > > Lagna is 12.14 minutes on first day then it will will be

> 12.10

> > > > minutes on

> > > > > next day. This difference will always be 23-56

> > > > > Hrs. The contention of Bhoosahn Priya Ji is wrong that the

> sarni

> > > > shows

> > > > > the difference of one minutes per day. It shows the exactly

> > > > > 4 minutes difference perday

> > > > > Regarding the place for which the Lagan Sarni is Based

Priya

> Ji

> > > > may be

> > > > > right/wrong. because I have not full sarni with me. Friends

> > > > > Earth revolves arround it poles and complete it revolutin

in

> 24

> > > > hours.

> > > > > If you a point is fixed out side the earth then you will

> find it

> > > > > accurately as 24 hours. If that fixed point is also moving

> then you

> > > > > will find difference wrt to that moving point every day.

> That is

> > > > what

> > > > > happens in Mother nature. Fixed Point Sun is moving by one

> Degree

> > > > per

> > > > > day. And Earth covers 1 degree in 4 minutes in revoloution.

> That is

> > > > > why the Lagan changes by -4 minutes per day.

> > > > > LalKitabee jee is right that earth takes 24 hours in

> rotation but

> > > > it takes

> > > > > 23-56 hours to reach the point which is moving 1 degree per

> day.

> > > > >

> > > > > *Point of difference with Miglani Ji:

> > > > > Point No: 1 House in Divisional Chakras:

> > > > > * First of all I Clarify that Houses are Fixed as per natal

> > > > Charts. My

> > > > > friend is wrong that these houses also move in Divisional

> Charts.

> > > > > I dont Know why and when these chakras had been given the

> name of

> > > > > Kundlis. Basically these are known as Nahansha, Hora etc etc

> > > > Chakras,

> > > > > Those who read the KP will know how these chakras to be

used.

> > > > Planet

> > > > > Position is fixed in natal Chart and it connot be shifted.

> These

> > > > > planets will be sitting in the Navaansha, and various

> > > > > other anshas owned by other planets. In these anshas the

> concept

> > > > of

> > > > > Natal Drishtis are

> > > > > not applicable.

> > > > > *Friends the contention of Miglani

> > > > > Ji is wrong and agaisnst the rules of vedic concepts.

> > > > > *Repected Bhooshan Priya Ji, LalKitabee Ji, and Miglani , I

> have

> > > > not written

> > > > > this to

> > > > > have any malafide intentions. I have the difference of

> opinion

> > > > That I

> > > > > gave. I request you to please dont take it personally.

> > > > > Yours

> > > > > Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi

> > > > >

> > > > > *

> > > > > **

> > > > > *

> > > > >

> > > > > *LalKitab Discussion Group

> > > > > msg:942

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: Lagn sarani : an inaccurate document

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kulbir ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > The Lagna Sarini document that you have mentioned is not

only

> > > > > inaccurate it is useless also. When I say `inaccurate' and

> > > > `useless'

> > > > > I say with full responsibility.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lal Kitab might claim to have done away with Rasi and

> Nakshatra,

> > > > but

> > > > > it cannot do away with Lagna. Ascendant is the keystone for

> all

> > > > > systems of astrology, including the Lal Kitab. The Lagna or

> > > > > ascendant has to be very accurate and precise for all

> arithmetical

> > > > > calculations needed in astrology. If the ascendant is not

> accurate

> > > > > the subsequent divisions [ varga ] like hora, dreshkran ,

> > > > > dwadashansh etc up to shashthiansh [ 1/60th of a sign ]

will

> be

> > > > > inaccurate. Therefore the Lagna has to be sookshm [

> precise ] and

> > > > > not sthool [ approximation]. I know that the Lal Kitab

> doesn't need

> > > > > the accuracy of the order I am talking about, nevertheless

> it can

> > > > > not be ignored if we are evaluating an astrology tool. A

> Sarini is

> > > > a

> > > > > tool used in astrology and therefore has to be evaluated on

> the

> > > > > standards set for it.

> > > > >

> > > > > A few years ago in Delhi an associate of Pt. Rupchand ji

> showed me

> > > > > the Lagna sarini used by Lal Kitab practitioners. I took

that

> > > > > opportunity to study and evaluate it. It is a very tedious

> task

> > > > > because it involves reverse engineering.

> > > > >

> > > > > I found the following drawbacks in that Lagna Sarini :

> > > > >

> > > > > [ 1 ] The Lagna sarini is drawn at Ayanansh 23degrees. The

> current

> > > > [

> > > > > 2007 ] Lahiri ayanansha is at 23deg 58min 2sec. Therefore

> any Lagna

> > > > > worked out through this Sarini will be off by 58 min and

> 2sec [

> > > > here

> > > > > the word min and sec mean the minute and seconds of a

degree

> and

> > > > not

> > > > > time]

> > > > >

> > > > > [ 2 ] The Sarini is drawn for the Longitude 82E0 and

> Latitude 26N0.

> > > > > This place will be near Allahabad Therefore the Ascendant

> degrees

> > > > > shown by this Sarini will be for a birth near Allahabad.

> Using this

> > > > > Sarini for any birth in Punjab, or for that matter any

where

> else

> > > > in

> > > > > India, will be criminal in astrological terms.

> > > > >

> > > > > Before I move on to point out other mistakes in the Sarini

I

> would

> > > > > request any one to find out for himself as to what I have

> said is

> > > > > true or not.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whenever we have to find out the co-ordinates of any Lagna

> Sarini,

> > > > > the most appropriate parameter to start from is a Surya

> sankranti

> > > > > day. There are 12 sankrantis in a year. A sankranti is a

day

> when

> > > > > the Sun moves to the next Rasi [ zodiac sign] . These

> sankrantis of

> > > > > the Sun fall on the same date every year.

> > > > >

> > > > > As an example let's take up the Makar Sankranti day. It

> falls on

> > > > > January 14th every year. The astrology dictum is `the sun

> will rise

> > > > > in the first degree of the sign on that day'. Therefore the

> > > > > Ascendant at the time of the sunrise on the 14th January

> will be

> > > > > within the first degree of Makar [ Capricorn]

> > > > >

> > > > > The time of Capricorn rising on the 14th of January shown

in

> the

> > > > > Lagna sarini under discussion is 6:55am and lasts till

8:37am

> > > > >

> > > > > Now take up any kundali software, change the ayanansh to

> 23deg [ ie

> > > > > 58'-2 " less than current Lahiri ayanansh ] feed the data :

> birth at

> > > > > 6:55am at 82E0 ; 26N0 and see for your self that the

> ascendant will

> > > > > be 0cap31 ; this value is within the first degree of

> Capricorn.

> > > > >

> > > > > This will prove my contentions that the Sarini is drawn:

> > > > > ( i )at 23deg ayanansha which is 58':2 " less than what is

> today

> > > > > ( ii ) for longitude 82E0 and Latitude 26N0 [hence not

> applicable

> > > > > for the rest of the country]

> > > > >

> > > > > Now coming to other misprints amounting to mistakes in the

> lagna

> > > > > sarini under discussion:

> > > > >

> > > > > [ 1 ] Add up the duration of all the 12 Lagna for any day.

> The

> > > > total

> > > > > doesn't come to 24 hours. Now who will believe that the

earth

> > > > > revolved one complete circle on its axis in less than 24

> hours. The

> > > > > total of all the 12 Lagna duration has to be 24 hours, no

> less no

> > > > > more.

> > > > >

> > > > > [ 2 ] From January till the end of December the time of

> rising of

> > > > > every lagna keeps reducing by 4 minutes every day i.e.

every

> lagna

> > > > > rises 4 minutes before its previous day rising time.

> > > > > In the sarini have a look at the rising time of lagna on the

> > > > January

> > > > > 13th and January 14th. The difference printed is just one

> minute.

> > > > > This mistake is carried on all along. No body will believe

> that the

> > > > > Lagna which rises 4 minutes early every next day, will rise

> only

> > > > one

> > > > > minute early on that day.

> > > > >

> > > > > These movements are astronomically controlled; they are not

> > > > > subjective. These are universal truths.

> > > > >

> > > > > Summarizing, I find the Sarini of no use whatsoever. Yes

for

> some

> > > > > people it might have a sentimental value but it has no

> astrological

> > > > > value. In an academic scrutiny sentiments do not count, the

> > > > findings

> > > > > are based on objective parameters.

> > > > >

> > > > > If some one turns up and says that the Lal Kitab doesn't

> need the

> > > > > kind of precision I have talked about, in that case they

> need not

> > > > > depend on the Sarini under discussion. Every Panchang

> published

> > > > > carries a sarini based on the place it is published from.

> They can

> > > > > use that sarini for sthool [ approximate ] Lagna , because

> the

> > > > Lagna

> > > > > is going to be the same for almost two hours for the major

> part of

> > > > > India.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sincerely,

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhooshan Priya

> > > > > msg:957

> > > > > Re: Lagn sarani : an inaccurate document

> > > > >

> > > > > Respected Bhooshan JI

> > > > >

> > > > > I also tried to solve this puzzle of sarani a couple of

> months

> > > > > before.But I found that the latitude & longitude were near

> about

> > > > > Varanasi = 82E30 25N20. at 23 ayananshas.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think this Saarani blongs to the area of Varanasi

> (U.P.).In my

> > > > > opinion also, this sarani cant be logical for the abroad

> borned in

> > > > > these days. I think all other experts can through some

light,

> > > > having

> > > > > some authentic & historical key-pages about it.Otherwise

its

> no use

> > > > > in my opinion.I have a clear concept that--- Chahey chandar

> ko

> > > > khada

> > > > > ghodaa banaa diyaa jaaye, nakshattar bhi bhoola diye

jaayain

> raashi

> > > > > ko bhi chhod diyaa jaaye.Fir bhi lagan sarani kee baat

> chalney par

> > > > > Dharatee(EARTH) ka ghoomnaa kabhi bhi nazar andaaz nahi

> kiyaa ja

> > > > > saktaa.Kyonki lagan saarni seedhey seedhey isse sambandh

> rakhtee

> > > > hai.

> > > > > U try these latitude & longitudes also plz for more

> confirmation.I

> > > > > will also be satisfied that one is here who can understand

> this

> > > > logic.

> > > > >

> > > > > With Regards

> > > > >

> > > > > Pt. Lalkitabee

> > > > > www.lalkitabee.com

> > > > > Mb. 9812020001

> > > > > *

> > > > > *Lalkitab Group msg:10478

> > > > > Re: Lagn sarani IS AN INACCURATE DOCUMENT!!!

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Bhatia ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > You seem to be misinformed about the Vedic astrology.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rahu and Ketu being together in the same house or Mercury

> and Venus

> > > > > being 7 houses away from the Sun is a Vedic astrology

> concept.

> > > > There

> > > > > is nothing illogical or un-vedic about it. The Vedic

> astrology had

> > > > > long back propounded this concept. The Lal Kitab has just

> followed

> > > > > it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rahu and Ketu not only can be but compulsorily have to be

in

> the

> > > > > same house in the following TEN divisional charts:

> > > > >

> > > > > D-2

> > > > > D-5

> > > > > D-6

> > > > > D-8

> > > > > D-16

> > > > > D-20

> > > > > D-24

> > > > > D-30

> > > > > D-40

> > > > > D-45

> > > > >

> > > > > In divisional charts Venus can be 180 degrees away from the

> Sun and

> > > > > so can be Mercury. Astronomically Venus cannot be more than

> 49

> > > > > degrees away from the Sun.

> > > > >

> > > > > But the things are different with the Janma Kundali. Since

> the

> > > > Janma

> > > > > Kundali is a map of the sky at the time of birth, the

> planets,

> > > > > including the nodes, have to be shown or plotted as they

> appear in

> > > > > the sky under the astronomical rules. Similarly the

> Ascendant has

> > > > to

> > > > > be the sign, which is rising at the horizon at the time of

> birth.

> > > > > The accuracy of the Ascendant cannot be compromised.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even the Lal Kitab follows the Vedic rules for the Janma

> Kundali.

> > > > It

> > > > > is only in the Varsh Phal chart that the Rahu and Ketu can

> be in

> > > > the

> > > > > adjacent houses and Venus and mercury 7 houses away. In a

> kundali

> > > > > prepared through Palmistry both the Rahu and the Ketu can

be

> in the

> > > > > same house. None of the above is against the principles of

> vedic

> > > > > astrology.

> > > > >

> > > > > Therefore the argument that if we accept Rahu and ketu

> together in

> > > > > the same house or in adjacent houses, might as well accept

an

> > > > > incorrect ascendant calculated through an inaccurate Sarini,

> > > > doesn't

> > > > > hold good.

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree with you when you say that those who do not have

> faith on

> > > > > the Sarini because it is inaccurate are free to keep away

> from it,

> > > > > or reject it as an obsolete tool.

> > > > >

> > > > > You have said in no uncertain terms that you would continue

> to use

> > > > > the same Sarini. I appreciate your stand.

> > > > >

> > > > > *

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > --

> > > Dr. Shiv Dev Kalsi,

> > > Jyotish Rishi (AIFAS)

> > > Consultant (Vedic Astrology)

> > >

> >

>

October 23, 2007

Respected Nirmal ji,

Accepting your contention that it was not Aquarius instead Pisces

rising at 6:52 am at Madras on March 1, 1952 , the best softwares

available read that at 6:52 am that day it was 24Aq10. That means

Aquarius has yet another 5d50 to go before the next sign would rise.

The Pisces rises at Madras on march 1, 1952 at 7:12 am. Therefore any

one born at 7am on that day the Sarini would show his Ascendant as

Pisces where as his Ascendant would be Aquarius still.

Even if the Sarini suggests that the Pisces was rising at 6:52 am, it

is off by some 20 minutes. In astrology you know 20 minutes is a very

long time. Would you consider that as accurate reading?

With regards,

Varun Trivedi

, " Nirmal Kumar Bhardwaj "

<nirbhar wrote:

>

> Dear Varun Ji.

> You are right. Aquarius did not rise at that time. In fact it is

not

> aquarius it Pisces rising at that time. Actualy i have concentrated

> on the degree only while working on the excel sheet. It is aquarius

> may be left indvertantly to be corrected of previous permutations

> Therefore aqaurioa as written in sheet be read as Pisces.

> Regards

> Nirmal Kumar Bhardwaj

> ,

> " varun_trvd " <varun_trvd@> wrote:

> >

> > Respected Nirmal Kumar ji,

> >

> > Verifying your data :

> >

> > Date of birth : March 1, 1952

> > Time of birth : 6:52 AM

> > Place of birth : Madras [ 80E15 ; 13N04]

> >

> > The Acendant acquired is 24Aq10.

> >

> > Aquarius doesn't rise at 6:52am at Madras as sarini seems to

> > suggest. Aquarius rose long back and is already over by 24d10'.

> > Another 24 minutes or so it will setand Pisces would rise.

> >

> > You and every body else can check this with any sofware.

> >

> > Since we do not have the March page of the sarini with us, I can

> not

> > verify for other dates on March. Could you please upload the

March

> > page here in the group files.

> >

> > With respect and regards,

> >

> > Varun Trivedi

> >

> > , NKB <nirbhar@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Respected Pandit Ji and Kalsi Ji

> > > I have uploaded the calculations at

> > > http://lalkitab.tripod.comcalc_asc_sidtime_madras.pdf

for

> > verifying

> > > the results through the sidereal time method from Lahiri's

Table

> of

> > > Ascendent. This is a systemetic method of calculating Ascendent

> > through

> > > Table of ascendent. I am giving you trouble to check it and

> > correct the

> > > errors if any. 1 March 1952 6.52 AM calculations done by me and

1

> > March

> > > 1972 6.52 AM are done by Kalsi ji and forwarded to me for

> recheck.

> > Our

> > > finding is that is is got printed in between 1952 to 1972 and

is

> > base upon

> > > Madras. Sarni is near to correct and can be used for Lalkitab

> > Expert only,

> > > who know how to apply drusti to teva.

> > > Other members may also have a look at this and correct the

errors

> > and

> > > upload again for the benefit of others

> > > Regards

> > > Nirmal Kumar Bhardwaj

> > >

> > > On 10/19/07, Shivdev Kalsi <shivdev.kalsi@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Bhooshan Priya ji,

> > > > Your opinion is challenging the entire astrological works

like

> > tevas,

> > > > kundlis,Mundane made before 1973. Your opinion that

> > > > ayaansha used in the Lagan Sarnis and planet calculations was

> 23

> > degree

> > > > prior to 1973 is not agreeable by me.On one hand it is called

> > for precsion

> > > > of accuracy in ascendent upto seconds &

> > > > talked about shashtyaansha, on the other hand it is

accepteble

> > that

> > > > the error/difference of 30-50 minutes is accepted as accurate

> > prior to 1973.

> > > >

> > > > It is one's own priority how to judge and accept the data.

You

> > may be

> > > > agreeing on your opinion but my views are totaly opposite to

> > your views.

> > > > Accuracy can be seen according to the system of astrology,

one

> > opt to

> > > > use.Lalkitab may not need

> > > > much accuracy but for other systems much accuracy is required.

> > > > As far as this sarni or any other lagan sarni is concerned

99%

> > of our

> > > > netsavy members may not be

> > > > using these tables. For remaining 1% users, let them decide

> > themselves about the accuracy.

> > > >

> > > > Bhooshan Ji, I have checked calculations personnaly for this

> > sarni.There is no error in .I had not much time to go for

detailed

> > calculation for

> > > > every year since 1952 but in my point of view, It is correct

> > that it is

> > > > based upon Madras Time and most probably it is made in 1970+/-

> > 3or 4 years.

> > > > Mr.Bhardwaj have made an attempt to calculate it for 1952 and

> > asked me to

> > > > check for another year he promised me to distibute it to

> > members. He might

> > > > have done so.

> > > > Difference of opinion in discussions are good for the cause.

> > Please don't

> > > > Take it otherwise.

> > > > Yours

> > > > Shiv Dev Kalsi

> > > >

> > > > On 10/18/07, <@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kalsi ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > Since I was away I couldn't respond to your observations in

> > time. I

> > > > > am sorry for my delayed response.

> > > > >

> > > > > I feel really happy to find that a few more Lal Kitab

> scholars

> > are

> > > > > getting interested in the discussions. It is a good

> indication

> > of

> > > > > things to come.

> > > > >

> > > > > ( A ) You are right that in the last decade the Sun might

not

> > have

> > > > > been in the Capricorn at the time of Sun rise on January

> > 14th . But

> > > > > we are not talking of the current decade, or of the decade

> > earlier

> > > > > to that. We are talking about the years 1952 and the years

> > before

> > > > > that because it is widely believed that the Lagna Sarini

under

> > > > > discussion was already in vogue around 1952.

> > > > >

> > > > > Therefore the sankranti data that you have provided isn't

> > applicable

> > > > > to the time frame under discussion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just a bit of the background of Sarini preparation in

general.

> > > > >

> > > > > Most of the Sarinis in use before 1973 were based at 23

degree

> > > > > ayanansh with the cut-off date 1938 when the Ayanansh got

to

> 23

> > > > > degrees. Some reputed Panchangs and Jantris revised their

> Lagna

> > > > > Sarini in 1973 when the Ayanansh got to 23 degrees 30

> minutes.

> > The

> > > > > next revision is due for 2010 when the ananash will get to

24

> > > > > degrees.

> > > > >

> > > > > Therefore in the context of the Sarini under discussion, we

> are

> > > > > talking about the Makar sankranti on January 14th on and

> before

> > > > > 1952. Since the 23d30 ayanansh modification wasn't due till

> > 1973 it

> > > > > was assumed that the Sarinis available in the Panchangs and

> the

> > > > > Jantris printed prior to 1952 were reflecting the

> calculations

> > at 23

> > > > > degree ayanansh.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thus we selected the following non-variable parameters to

> > evaluate

> > > > > the Sarini:

> > > > >

> > > > > Makar Sankranti on 14th January

> > > > > Ayanansh 23 degrees

> > > > > The time reference is 82E30 which is now known as IST and

> > earlier

> > > > > was known as Madras Time.

> > > > > Sun rise at IST [ 82E30 ] of 6 :58 am on January 14th.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now let us cross check which Rashi [ zodiac sign ] the Sun

> was

> > on

> > > > > January 14th at sun rise 6:58 am IST or what was known as

> > Madras

> > > > > time earlier ;ref 82E30. We examined four years after 1952

> and

> > four

> > > > > years before 1952. Here are the results for you to verify:

> > > > >

> > > > > Year position of the Sun at sunrise

> > > > > [14th Jan] At 6:58 am at 82E30

> > > > > { IST or earlier Madras time }

> > > > >

> > > > > 1956 0cp34

> > > > > 1955 0cp50

> > > > > 1954 1cp05

> > > > > 1953 1cp21

> > > > > 1952 0cp35

> > > > > 1951 0cp51

> > > > > 1950 1cp07

> > > > > 1949 1cp23

> > > > > 1948 0cp37

> > > > >

> > > > > During all these years the Sun is already in the sign

> > Capricorn [

> > > > > makar ] at the time of the Sunrise. This means that the

> > Sankranti [

> > > > > sun moving to the next sign] has already taken place much

> > before the

> > > > > sun rise.

> > > > >

> > > > > ( B ) Yes, once again you are right that the next lagna

> starts

> > 4

> > > > > minutes early.

> > > > > But the Lagna Sarini under discussion shows a difference of

> > just 1

> > > > > minute between January 13th and the 14th. Not only that, at

> > places

> > > > > the difference is shown to be 5 minutes between the rising

> > time of

> > > > > the Lagna the next day. You will find a difference of 3

> > minutes also

> > > > > at a few places. Would that be called consistency and

> > uniformity?

> > > > > You would agree that every mathematical table has to be

> > consistent

> > > > > and conforming to the principles.

> > > > >

> > > > > Both the above statements can be verified from the January

> > page of

> > > > > the Sarini I have uploaded in the file section.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kalsi ji, I have no motive to prove this Sarini to be

> > > > > inaccurate. I am a student of Lal Kitab system myself and I

> > would

> > > > > gain nothing by declaring the Sarini inaccurate if it

isn't?

> > At the

> > > > > same time would prefer any tool being used in astrology to

be

> > as

> > > > > perfect as it can be. We cannot keep using tools that are

not

> > > > > precise.

> > > > >

> > > > > For me it is purely an academic discussion, our approach

has

> > been

> > > > > dispassionate, objective and based on facts. The

methodology

> > we have

> > > > > used is scientific and uniformly applicable.

> > > > >

> > > > > I once again welcome your initiative to participate in the

> > > > > discussion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sincerely,

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhooshan Priya

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Moderator and fellow members,

> > > > > First of all I thank the unknown group member who sent me

the

> > link

> > > > > for copies of few pages of Lagan Sarni of Month March.

> > > > > Though I am not well versed with LalKitab But as far as

vedic

> > > > > astrology is concerned, I am in the opinion that these

> members

> > are

> > > > > just beating the wrong drum. I cite few messages below from

> > few of

> > > > > the fellow members, I am giving my point of difference with

> the

> > > > > following views of members:-

> > > > > Pt. Bhooshan Priya & LalKitabee Ji

> > > > > Point No.1 - Makar Sakranti

> > > > > The concept of Priya Ji is wrong. No doubt Sun enters in

> makar

> > Rashi

> > > > > on 14th of every year. But the time is not the sunrise of

the

> > day.

> > > > > here I cite few examples of previous years. You can verify

> > from the

> > > > > panchangs:

> > > > > Year 2005: Sun entered Makar on 14th January at (29.42)

which

> > is

> > > > > 05.42 AM of 15th January and that too before the sunrise

> > > > > Year 2006:Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 11.55 AM and

> > that is

> > > > > at noon not at the sunrise

> > > > > Year 2007:Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 18.36 PM and

> > that is

> > > > > at evening not at the sunrise

> > > > > Year 2008 : Sun will enter Makar on 14th January at (

24.08)

> > which is

> > > > > at 00.08 Hrs of 15th January and that is not at the sunrise

> > > > > Friends Therefore the concepts of both these astrologers

are

> > wrong

> > > > > and misleading.

> > > > > Point No. 2. : Sum of Lagan Timing will be 24 Hours.

> > > > > . Friends Earth rotates arround sun and completes it the

> > journey in

> > > > > one year. in other words if we treat the Earth as

stationary

> > and by

> > > > > the Law of relativity we can say that Sun moves and

complete

> > the

> > > > > journey in One year which is approximately 1 degree per

day.

> > with

> > > > > the result the rising time of lagan will change each day

> > > > > approximately 4 minutes early. There fore when you

calculate

> > the

> > > > > difference of time you will always encounter the difference

> of

> > 4

> > > > > minutes or you have to add 4minutes to this timing. For

> > example if

> > > > > rising time of a Lagna is 12.14 minutes on first day then

it

> > will

> > > > > will be 12.10 minutes on next day. This difference will

> always

> > be 23-

> > > > > 56 Hrs. The contention of Bhoosahn Priya Ji is wrong that

the

> > sarni

> > > > > shows the difference of one minutes per day. It shows the

> > exactly 4

> > > > > minutes difference perday

> > > > > Regarding the place for which the Lagan Sarni is Based

Priya

> > Ji may

> > > > > be right/wrong. because I have not full sarni with me.

> Friends

> > Earth

> > > > > revolves arround it poles and complete it revolutin in 24

> > hours. If

> > > > > you a point is fixed out side the earth then you will find

it

> > > > > accurately as 24 hours. If that fixed point is also moving

> > then you

> > > > > will find difference wrt to that moving point every day.

That

> > is

> > > > > what happens in Mother nature. Fixed Point Sun is moving by

> one

> > > > > Degree per day. And Earth covers 1 degree in 4 minutes in

> > > > > revoloution. That is why the Lagan changes by -4 minutes

per

> > day.

> > > > > LalKitabee jee is right that earth takes 24 hours in

rotation

> > but it

> > > > > takes 23-56 hours to reach the point which is moving 1

degree

> > per

> > > > > day.

> > > > >

> > > > > Point of difference with Miglani Ji:

> > > > > Point No: 1 House in Divisional Chakras:

> > > > > First of all I Clarify that Houses are Fixed as per natal

> > Charts.

> > > > > My friend is wrong that these houses also move in Divisional

> > > > > Charts. I dont Know why and when these chakras had been

given

> > the

> > > > > name of Kundlis. Basically these are known as Nahansha,

Hora

> > etc etc

> > > > > Chakras, Those who read the KP will know how these chakras

to

> > be

> > > > > used. Planet Position is fixed in natal Chart and it connot

be

> > > > > shifted. These planets will be sitting in the Navaansha,

and

> > various

> > > > > other anshas owned by other planets. In these anshas the

> > concept of

> > > > > Natal Drishtis are not applicable.

> > > > > Friends the contention of Miglani Ji is wrong and agaisnst

> the

> > rules

> > > > > of vedic concepts.

> > > > > Repected Bhooshan Priya Ji, LalKitabee Ji, and Miglani , I

> > have not

> > > > > written this to have any malafide intentions. I have the

> > difference

> > > > > of opinion That I gave. I request you to please dont take it

> > > > > personally.

> > > > > Yours

> > > > > Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi

> > > > >

> > > > > --- In

> <%

> > 40>,

> > > > > " Shivdev Kalsi "

> > > > > <shivdev.kalsi@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Moderator and fellow members,

> > > > > > First of all I thank the unknown group member who sent me

> > the link

> > > > > for

> > > > > > copies of few pages of Lagan Sarni of Month March.

> > > > > > Though I am not well versed with LalKitab But as far as

> vedic

> > > > > astrology is

> > > > > > concerned, I am in the opinion that these members are

just

> > beating

> > > > > the

> > > > > > wrong drum. I

> > > > > > cite few messages below from few of the fellow

> > > > > > members, I am giving my point of difference with the

> > following

> > > > > views

> > > > > > of members:-

> > > > > > *Pt. Bhooshan Priya & LalKitabee Ji

> > > > > > Point No.1 - Makar Sakranti

> > > > > > *The concept of Priya Ji is wrong. No doubt Sun enters in

> > makar

> > > > > Rashi on

> > > > > > 14th of every year. But the time is not the sunrise of

the

> > day.

> > > > > here I cite

> > > > > > few examples of previous years. You can verify from the

> > panchangs:

> > > > > > *Year 2005: Sun entered Makar on 14th January at (29.42)

> > which is

> > > > > 05.42 AM

> > > > > > of 15th January and that too before the sunrise

> > > > > > **Year 2006:**Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 11.55

AM

> > and

> > > > > that

> > > > > > is at noon not at the sunrise

> > > > > > ** **Year 2007:**Sun entered Makar on 14th January at

18.36

> > PM and

> > > > > that

> > > > > > is at evening not at the sunrise*

> > > > > > *Year 2008 : **Sun will enter Makar on 14th January at (

> > 24.08)

> > > > > which is at

> > > > > > 00.08 Hrs of 15th January and that is not at the sunrise

> > > > > > *Friends Therefore the concepts of both these astrologers

> are

> > > > > wrong and

> > > > > > misleading.

> > > > > > *Point No. 2. : Sum of Lagan Timing will be 24 Hours.

> > > > > > ** *. Friends Earth rotates arround sun and completes it

the

> > > > > journey

> > > > > > in one year. in other words if

> > > > > > we treat the Earth as stationary and by the Law of

> > relativity we

> > > > > can say

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > Sun moves and complete the journey in One year which is

> > > > > approximately

> > > > > > 1 degree per day.

> > > > > > with the result the rising time of lagan will change each

> day

> > > > > approximately

> > > > > > 4

> > > > > > minutes early. There fore when you calculate the

difference

> > of time

> > > > > > you will always encounter the difference of 4 minutes

> > > > > > or you have to add 4minutes to this timing. For example

if

> > rising

> > > > > time of a

> > > > > > Lagna is 12.14 minutes on first day then it will will be

> > 12.10

> > > > > minutes on

> > > > > > next day. This difference will always be 23-56

> > > > > > Hrs. The contention of Bhoosahn Priya Ji is wrong that

the

> > sarni

> > > > > shows

> > > > > > the difference of one minutes per day. It shows the

exactly

> > > > > > 4 minutes difference perday

> > > > > > Regarding the place for which the Lagan Sarni is Based

> Priya

> > Ji

> > > > > may be

> > > > > > right/wrong. because I have not full sarni with me.

Friends

> > > > > > Earth revolves arround it poles and complete it revolutin

> in

> > 24

> > > > > hours.

> > > > > > If you a point is fixed out side the earth then you will

> > find it

> > > > > > accurately as 24 hours. If that fixed point is also

moving

> > then you

> > > > > > will find difference wrt to that moving point every day.

> > That is

> > > > > what

> > > > > > happens in Mother nature. Fixed Point Sun is moving by

one

> > Degree

> > > > > per

> > > > > > day. And Earth covers 1 degree in 4 minutes in

revoloution.

> > That is

> > > > > > why the Lagan changes by -4 minutes per day.

> > > > > > LalKitabee jee is right that earth takes 24 hours in

> > rotation but

> > > > > it takes

> > > > > > 23-56 hours to reach the point which is moving 1 degree

per

> > day.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *Point of difference with Miglani Ji:

> > > > > > Point No: 1 House in Divisional Chakras:

> > > > > > * First of all I Clarify that Houses are Fixed as per

natal

> > > > > Charts. My

> > > > > > friend is wrong that these houses also move in Divisional

> > Charts.

> > > > > > I dont Know why and when these chakras had been given the

> > name of

> > > > > > Kundlis. Basically these are known as Nahansha, Hora etc

etc

> > > > > Chakras,

> > > > > > Those who read the KP will know how these chakras to be

> used.

> > > > > Planet

> > > > > > Position is fixed in natal Chart and it connot be

shifted.

> > These

> > > > > > planets will be sitting in the Navaansha, and various

> > > > > > other anshas owned by other planets. In these anshas the

> > concept

> > > > > of

> > > > > > Natal Drishtis are

> > > > > > not applicable.

> > > > > > *Friends the contention of Miglani

> > > > > > Ji is wrong and agaisnst the rules of vedic concepts.

> > > > > > *Repected Bhooshan Priya Ji, LalKitabee Ji, and Miglani ,

I

> > have

> > > > > not written

> > > > > > this to

> > > > > > have any malafide intentions. I have the difference of

> > opinion

> > > > > That I

> > > > > > gave. I request you to please dont take it personally.

> > > > > > Yours

> > > > > > Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *

> > > > > > **

> > > > > > *

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *LalKitab Discussion Group

> > > > > > msg:942

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: Lagn sarani : an inaccurate document

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Kulbir ji,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The Lagna Sarini document that you have mentioned is not

> only

> > > > > > inaccurate it is useless also. When I say `inaccurate' and

> > > > > `useless'

> > > > > > I say with full responsibility.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lal Kitab might claim to have done away with Rasi and

> > Nakshatra,

> > > > > but

> > > > > > it cannot do away with Lagna. Ascendant is the keystone

for

> > all

> > > > > > systems of astrology, including the Lal Kitab. The Lagna

or

> > > > > > ascendant has to be very accurate and precise for all

> > arithmetical

> > > > > > calculations needed in astrology. If the ascendant is not

> > accurate

> > > > > > the subsequent divisions [ varga ] like hora, dreshkran ,

> > > > > > dwadashansh etc up to shashthiansh [ 1/60th of a sign ]

> will

> > be

> > > > > > inaccurate. Therefore the Lagna has to be sookshm [

> > precise ] and

> > > > > > not sthool [ approximation]. I know that the Lal Kitab

> > doesn't need

> > > > > > the accuracy of the order I am talking about,

nevertheless

> > it can

> > > > > > not be ignored if we are evaluating an astrology tool. A

> > Sarini is

> > > > > a

> > > > > > tool used in astrology and therefore has to be evaluated

on

> > the

> > > > > > standards set for it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A few years ago in Delhi an associate of Pt. Rupchand ji

> > showed me

> > > > > > the Lagna sarini used by Lal Kitab practitioners. I took

> that

> > > > > > opportunity to study and evaluate it. It is a very

tedious

> > task

> > > > > > because it involves reverse engineering.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I found the following drawbacks in that Lagna Sarini :

> > > > > >

> > > > > > [ 1 ] The Lagna sarini is drawn at Ayanansh 23degrees.

The

> > current

> > > > > [

> > > > > > 2007 ] Lahiri ayanansha is at 23deg 58min 2sec. Therefore

> > any Lagna

> > > > > > worked out through this Sarini will be off by 58 min and

> > 2sec [

> > > > > here

> > > > > > the word min and sec mean the minute and seconds of a

> degree

> > and

> > > > > not

> > > > > > time]

> > > > > >

> > > > > > [ 2 ] The Sarini is drawn for the Longitude 82E0 and

> > Latitude 26N0.

> > > > > > This place will be near Allahabad Therefore the Ascendant

> > degrees

> > > > > > shown by this Sarini will be for a birth near Allahabad.

> > Using this

> > > > > > Sarini for any birth in Punjab, or for that matter any

> where

> > else

> > > > > in

> > > > > > India, will be criminal in astrological terms.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Before I move on to point out other mistakes in the

Sarini

> I

> > would

> > > > > > request any one to find out for himself as to what I have

> > said is

> > > > > > true or not.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Whenever we have to find out the co-ordinates of any

Lagna

> > Sarini,

> > > > > > the most appropriate parameter to start from is a Surya

> > sankranti

> > > > > > day. There are 12 sankrantis in a year. A sankranti is a

> day

> > when

> > > > > > the Sun moves to the next Rasi [ zodiac sign] . These

> > sankrantis of

> > > > > > the Sun fall on the same date every year.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As an example let's take up the Makar Sankranti day. It

> > falls on

> > > > > > January 14th every year. The astrology dictum is `the sun

> > will rise

> > > > > > in the first degree of the sign on that day'. Therefore

the

> > > > > > Ascendant at the time of the sunrise on the 14th January

> > will be

> > > > > > within the first degree of Makar [ Capricorn]

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The time of Capricorn rising on the 14th of January shown

> in

> > the

> > > > > > Lagna sarini under discussion is 6:55am and lasts till

> 8:37am

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now take up any kundali software, change the ayanansh to

> > 23deg [ ie

> > > > > > 58'-2 " less than current Lahiri ayanansh ] feed the

data :

> > birth at

> > > > > > 6:55am at 82E0 ; 26N0 and see for your self that the

> > ascendant will

> > > > > > be 0cap31 ; this value is within the first degree of

> > Capricorn.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This will prove my contentions that the Sarini is drawn:

> > > > > > ( i )at 23deg ayanansha which is 58':2 " less than what is

> > today

> > > > > > ( ii ) for longitude 82E0 and Latitude 26N0 [hence not

> > applicable

> > > > > > for the rest of the country]

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now coming to other misprints amounting to mistakes in

the

> > lagna

> > > > > > sarini under discussion:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > [ 1 ] Add up the duration of all the 12 Lagna for any

day.

> > The

> > > > > total

> > > > > > doesn't come to 24 hours. Now who will believe that the

> earth

> > > > > > revolved one complete circle on its axis in less than 24

> > hours. The

> > > > > > total of all the 12 Lagna duration has to be 24 hours, no

> > less no

> > > > > > more.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > [ 2 ] From January till the end of December the time of

> > rising of

> > > > > > every lagna keeps reducing by 4 minutes every day i.e.

> every

> > lagna

> > > > > > rises 4 minutes before its previous day rising time.

> > > > > > In the sarini have a look at the rising time of lagna on

the

> > > > > January

> > > > > > 13th and January 14th. The difference printed is just one

> > minute.

> > > > > > This mistake is carried on all along. No body will

believe

> > that the

> > > > > > Lagna which rises 4 minutes early every next day, will

rise

> > only

> > > > > one

> > > > > > minute early on that day.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These movements are astronomically controlled; they are

not

> > > > > > subjective. These are universal truths.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Summarizing, I find the Sarini of no use whatsoever. Yes

> for

> > some

> > > > > > people it might have a sentimental value but it has no

> > astrological

> > > > > > value. In an academic scrutiny sentiments do not count,

the

> > > > > findings

> > > > > > are based on objective parameters.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If some one turns up and says that the Lal Kitab doesn't

> > need the

> > > > > > kind of precision I have talked about, in that case they

> > need not

> > > > > > depend on the Sarini under discussion. Every Panchang

> > published

> > > > > > carries a sarini based on the place it is published from.

> > They can

> > > > > > use that sarini for sthool [ approximate ] Lagna ,

because

> > the

> > > > > Lagna

> > > > > > is going to be the same for almost two hours for the

major

> > part of

> > > > > > India.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sincerely,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bhooshan Priya

> > > > > > msg:957

> > > > > > Re: Lagn sarani : an inaccurate document

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Respected Bhooshan JI

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I also tried to solve this puzzle of sarani a couple of

> > months

> > > > > > before.But I found that the latitude & longitude were

near

> > about

> > > > > > Varanasi = 82E30 25N20. at 23 ayananshas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think this Saarani blongs to the area of Varanasi

> > (U.P.).In my

> > > > > > opinion also, this sarani cant be logical for the abroad

> > borned in

> > > > > > these days. I think all other experts can through some

> light,

> > > > > having

> > > > > > some authentic & historical key-pages about it.Otherwise

> its

> > no use

> > > > > > in my opinion.I have a clear concept that--- Chahey

chandar

> > ko

> > > > > khada

> > > > > > ghodaa banaa diyaa jaaye, nakshattar bhi bhoola diye

> jaayain

> > raashi

> > > > > > ko bhi chhod diyaa jaaye.Fir bhi lagan sarani kee baat

> > chalney par

> > > > > > Dharatee(EARTH) ka ghoomnaa kabhi bhi nazar andaaz nahi

> > kiyaa ja

> > > > > > saktaa.Kyonki lagan saarni seedhey seedhey isse sambandh

> > rakhtee

> > > > > hai.

> > > > > > U try these latitude & longitudes also plz for more

> > confirmation.I

> > > > > > will also be satisfied that one is here who can

understand

> > this

> > > > > logic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With Regards

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pt. Lalkitabee

> > > > > > www.lalkitabee.com

> > > > > > Mb. 9812020001

> > > > > > *

> > > > > > *Lalkitab Group msg:10478

> > > > > > Re: Lagn sarani IS AN INACCURATE DOCUMENT!!!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Bhatia ji,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You seem to be misinformed about the Vedic astrology.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rahu and Ketu being together in the same house or Mercury

> > and Venus

> > > > > > being 7 houses away from the Sun is a Vedic astrology

> > concept.

> > > > > There

> > > > > > is nothing illogical or un-vedic about it. The Vedic

> > astrology had

> > > > > > long back propounded this concept. The Lal Kitab has just

> > followed

> > > > > > it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rahu and Ketu not only can be but compulsorily have to be

> in

> > the

> > > > > > same house in the following TEN divisional charts:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > D-2

> > > > > > D-5

> > > > > > D-6

> > > > > > D-8

> > > > > > D-16

> > > > > > D-20

> > > > > > D-24

> > > > > > D-30

> > > > > > D-40

> > > > > > D-45

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In divisional charts Venus can be 180 degrees away from

the

> > Sun and

> > > > > > so can be Mercury. Astronomically Venus cannot be more

than

> > 49

> > > > > > degrees away from the Sun.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But the things are different with the Janma Kundali.

Since

> > the

> > > > > Janma

> > > > > > Kundali is a map of the sky at the time of birth, the

> > planets,

> > > > > > including the nodes, have to be shown or plotted as they

> > appear in

> > > > > > the sky under the astronomical rules. Similarly the

> > Ascendant has

> > > > > to

> > > > > > be the sign, which is rising at the horizon at the time

of

> > birth.

> > > > > > The accuracy of the Ascendant cannot be compromised.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even the Lal Kitab follows the Vedic rules for the Janma

> > Kundali.

> > > > > It

> > > > > > is only in the Varsh Phal chart that the Rahu and Ketu

can

> > be in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > adjacent houses and Venus and mercury 7 houses away. In a

> > kundali

> > > > > > prepared through Palmistry both the Rahu and the Ketu can

> be

> > in the

> > > > > > same house. None of the above is against the principles

of

> > vedic

> > > > > > astrology.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Therefore the argument that if we accept Rahu and ketu

> > together in

> > > > > > the same house or in adjacent houses, might as well

accept

> an

> > > > > > incorrect ascendant calculated through an inaccurate

Sarini,

> > > > > doesn't

> > > > > > hold good.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agree with you when you say that those who do not have

> > faith on

> > > > > > the Sarini because it is inaccurate are free to keep away

> > from it,

> > > > > > or reject it as an obsolete tool.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You have said in no uncertain terms that you would

continue

> > to use

> > > > > > the same Sarini. I appreciate your stand.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Dr. Shiv Dev Kalsi,

> > > > Jyotish Rishi (AIFAS)

> > > > Consultant (Vedic Astrology)

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Aquarius at Madras / Res. Nirmal Kumar ji

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