Lagan Sarni discussion / shri Shivdev Kalsi ji

[Guest guest]

Dear Kalsi ji,

 

Since I was away I couldn’t respond to your observations in time. I

am sorry for my delayed response.

 

I feel really happy to find that a few more Lal Kitab scholars are

getting interested in the discussions. It is a good indication of

things to come.

 

( A ) You are right that in the last decade the Sun might not have

been in the Capricorn at the time of Sun rise on January 14th . But

we are not talking of the current decade, or of the decade earlier

to that. We are talking about the years 1952 and the years before

that because it is widely believed that the Lagna Sarini under

discussion was already in vogue around 1952.

 

Therefore the sankranti data that you have provided isn’t applicable

to the time frame under discussion.

 

Just a bit of the background of Sarini preparation in general.

 

Most of the Sarinis in use before 1973 were based at 23 degree

ayanansh with the cut-off date 1938 when the Ayanansh got to 23

degrees. Some reputed Panchangs and Jantris revised their Lagna

Sarini in 1973 when the Ayanansh got to 23 degrees 30 minutes. The

next revision is due for 2010 when the ananash will get to 24

degrees.

 

Therefore in the context of the Sarini under discussion, we are

talking about the Makar sankranti on January 14th on and before

1952. Since the 23d30 ayanansh modification wasn’t due till 1973 it

was assumed that the Sarinis available in the Panchangs and the

Jantris printed prior to 1952 were reflecting the calculations at 23

degree ayanansh.

 

Thus we selected the following non-variable parameters to evaluate

the Sarini:

 

Makar Sankranti on 14th January

Ayanansh 23 degrees

The time reference is 82E30 which is now known as IST and earlier

was known as Madras Time.

Sun rise at IST [ 82E30 ] of 6 :58 am on January 14th.

 

Now let us cross check which Rashi [ zodiac sign ] the Sun was on

January 14th at sun rise 6:58 am IST or what was known as Madras

time earlier ;ref 82E30. We examined four years after 1952 and four

years before 1952. Here are the results for you to verify:

 

Year position of the Sun at sunrise

[14th Jan] At 6:58 am at 82E30

{ IST or earlier Madras time }

 

1956 0cp34

1955 0cp50

1954 1cp05

1953 1cp21

1952 0cp35

1951 0cp51

1950 1cp07

1949 1cp23

1948 0cp37

 

During all these years the Sun is already in the sign Capricorn [

makar ] at the time of the Sunrise. This means that the Sankranti [

sun moving to the next sign] has already taken place much before the

sun rise.

 

( B ) Yes, once again you are right that the next lagna starts 4

minutes early.

But the Lagna Sarini under discussion shows a difference of just 1

minute between January 13th and the 14th. Not only that, at places

the difference is shown to be 5 minutes between the rising time of

the Lagna the next day. You will find a difference of 3 minutes also

at a few places. Would that be called consistency and uniformity?

You would agree that every mathematical table has to be consistent

and conforming to the principles.

 

Both the above statements can be verified from the January page of

the Sarini I have uploaded in the file section.

 

Dear Kalsi ji, I have no motive to prove this Sarini to be

inaccurate. I am a student of Lal Kitab system myself and I would

gain nothing by declaring the Sarini inaccurate if it isn’t? At the

same time would prefer any tool being used in astrology to be as

perfect as it can be. We cannot keep using tools that are not

precise.

 

For me it is purely an academic discussion, our approach has been

dispassionate, objective and based on facts. The methodology we have

used is scientific and uniformly applicable.

 

I once again welcome your initiative to participate in the

discussion.

 

Sincerely,

 

Bhooshan Priya

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Moderator and fellow members,

First of all I thank the unknown group member who sent me the link

for copies of few pages of Lagan Sarni of Month March.

Though I am not well versed with LalKitab But as far as vedic

astrology is concerned, I am in the opinion that these members are

just beating the wrong drum. I cite few messages below from few of

the fellow members, I am giving my point of difference with the

following views of members:-

Pt. Bhooshan Priya & LalKitabee Ji

Point No.1 - Makar Sakranti

The concept of Priya Ji is wrong. No doubt Sun enters in makar Rashi

on 14th of every year. But the time is not the sunrise of the day.

here I cite few examples of previous years. You can verify from the

panchangs:

Year 2005: Sun entered Makar on 14th January at (29.42) which is

05.42 AM of 15th January and that too before the sunrise

Year 2006:Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 11.55 AM and that is

at noon not at the sunrise

Year 2007:Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 18.36 PM and that is

at evening not at the sunrise

Year 2008 : Sun will enter Makar on 14th January at (24.08) which is

at 00.08 Hrs of 15th January and that is not at the sunrise

Friends Therefore the concepts of both these astrologers are wrong

and misleading.

Point No. 2. : Sum of Lagan Timing will be 24 Hours.

. Friends Earth rotates arround sun and completes it the journey in

one year. in other words if we treat the Earth as stationary and by

the Law of relativity we can say that Sun moves and complete the

journey in One year which is approximately 1 degree per day. with

the result the rising time of lagan will change each day

approximately 4 minutes early. There fore when you calculate the

difference of time you will always encounter the difference of 4

minutes or you have to add 4minutes to this timing. For example if

rising time of a Lagna is 12.14 minutes on first day then it will

will be 12.10 minutes on next day. This difference will always be 23-

56 Hrs. The contention of Bhoosahn Priya Ji is wrong that the sarni

shows the difference of one minutes per day. It shows the exactly 4

minutes difference perday

Regarding the place for which the Lagan Sarni is Based Priya Ji may

be right/wrong. because I have not full sarni with me. Friends Earth

revolves arround it poles and complete it revolutin in 24 hours. If

you a point is fixed out side the earth then you will find it

accurately as 24 hours. If that fixed point is also moving then you

will find difference wrt to that moving point every day. That is

what happens in Mother nature. Fixed Point Sun is moving by one

Degree per day. And Earth covers 1 degree in 4 minutes in

revoloution. That is why the Lagan changes by -4 minutes per day.

LalKitabee jee is right that earth takes 24 hours in rotation but it

takes 23-56 hours to reach the point which is moving 1 degree per

day.

 

Point of difference with Miglani Ji:

Point No: 1 House in Divisional Chakras:

First of all I Clarify that Houses are Fixed as per natal Charts.

My friend is wrong that these houses also move in Divisional

Charts. I dont Know why and when these chakras had been given the

name of Kundlis. Basically these are known as Nahansha, Hora etc etc

Chakras, Those who read the KP will know how these chakras to be

used. Planet Position is fixed in natal Chart and it connot be

shifted. These planets will be sitting in the Navaansha, and various

other anshas owned by other planets. In these anshas the concept of

Natal Drishtis are not applicable.

Friends the contention of Miglani Ji is wrong and agaisnst the rules

of vedic concepts.

Repected Bhooshan Priya Ji, LalKitabee Ji, and Miglani , I have not

written this to have any malafide intentions. I have the difference

of opinion That I gave. I request you to please dont take it

personally.

Yours

Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Shivdev Kalsi "

<shivdev.kalsi wrote:

>

> Dear Moderator and fellow members,

> First of all I thank the unknown group member who sent me the link

for

> copies of few pages of Lagan Sarni of Month March.

> Though I am not well versed with LalKitab But as far as vedic

astrology is

> concerned, I am in the opinion that these members are just beating

the

> wrong drum. I

> cite few messages below from few of the fellow

> members, I am giving my point of difference with the following

views

> of members:-

> *Pt. Bhooshan Priya & LalKitabee Ji

> Point No.1 - Makar Sakranti

> *The concept of Priya Ji is wrong. No doubt Sun enters in makar

Rashi on

> 14th of every year. But the time is not the sunrise of the day.

here I cite

> few examples of previous years. You can verify from the panchangs:

> *Year 2005: Sun entered Makar on 14th January at (29.42) which is

05.42 AM

> of 15th January and that too before the sunrise

> **Year 2006:**Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 11.55 AM and

that

> is at noon not at the sunrise

> ** **Year 2007:**Sun entered Makar on 14th January at 18.36 PM and

that

> is at evening not at the sunrise*

> *Year 2008 : **Sun will enter Makar on 14th January at (24.08)

which is at

> 00.08 Hrs of 15th January and that is not at the sunrise

> *Friends Therefore the concepts of both these astrologers are

wrong and

> misleading.

> *Point No. 2. : Sum of Lagan Timing will be 24 Hours.

> ** *. Friends Earth rotates arround sun and completes it the

journey

> in one year. in other words if

> we treat the Earth as stationary and by the Law of relativity we

can say

> that

> Sun moves and complete the journey in One year which is

approximately

> 1 degree per day.

> with the result the rising time of lagan will change each day

approximately

> 4

> minutes early. There fore when you calculate the difference of time

> you will always encounter the difference of 4 minutes

> or you have to add 4minutes to this timing. For example if rising

time of a

> Lagna is 12.14 minutes on first day then it will will be 12.10

minutes on

> next day. This difference will always be 23-56

> Hrs. The contention of Bhoosahn Priya Ji is wrong that the sarni

shows

> the difference of one minutes per day. It shows the exactly

> 4 minutes difference perday

> Regarding the place for which the Lagan Sarni is Based Priya Ji

may be

> right/wrong. because I have not full sarni with me. Friends

> Earth revolves arround it poles and complete it revolutin in 24

hours.

> If you a point is fixed out side the earth then you will find it

> accurately as 24 hours. If that fixed point is also moving then you

> will find difference wrt to that moving point every day. That is

what

> happens in Mother nature. Fixed Point Sun is moving by one Degree

per

> day. And Earth covers 1 degree in 4 minutes in revoloution. That is

> why the Lagan changes by -4 minutes per day.

> LalKitabee jee is right that earth takes 24 hours in rotation but

it takes

> 23-56 hours to reach the point which is moving 1 degree per day.

>

> *Point of difference with Miglani Ji:

> Point No: 1 House in Divisional Chakras:

> * First of all I Clarify that Houses are Fixed as per natal

Charts. My

> friend is wrong that these houses also move in Divisional Charts.

> I dont Know why and when these chakras had been given the name of

> Kundlis. Basically these are known as Nahansha, Hora etc etc

Chakras,

> Those who read the KP will know how these chakras to be used.

Planet

> Position is fixed in natal Chart and it connot be shifted. These

> planets will be sitting in the Navaansha, and various

> other anshas owned by other planets. In these anshas the concept

of

> Natal Drishtis are

> not applicable.

> *Friends the contention of Miglani

> Ji is wrong and agaisnst the rules of vedic concepts.

> *Repected Bhooshan Priya Ji, LalKitabee Ji, and Miglani , I have

not written

> this to

> have any malafide intentions. I have the difference of opinion

That I

> gave. I request you to please dont take it personally.

> Yours

> Shiv Dev Singh Kalsi

>

>

>

> *

> **

> *

>

>

> *LalKitab Discussion Group

> msg:942

>

> Re: Lagn sarani : an inaccurate document

>

> Dear Kulbir ji,

>

> The Lagna Sarini document that you have mentioned is not only

> inaccurate it is useless also. When I say `inaccurate' and

`useless'

> I say with full responsibility.

>

> Lal Kitab might claim to have done away with Rasi and Nakshatra,

but

> it cannot do away with Lagna. Ascendant is the keystone for all

> systems of astrology, including the Lal Kitab. The Lagna or

> ascendant has to be very accurate and precise for all arithmetical

> calculations needed in astrology. If the ascendant is not accurate

> the subsequent divisions [ varga ] like hora, dreshkran ,

> dwadashansh etc up to shashthiansh [ 1/60th of a sign ] will be

> inaccurate. Therefore the Lagna has to be sookshm [ precise ] and

> not sthool [ approximation]. I know that the Lal Kitab doesn't need

> the accuracy of the order I am talking about, nevertheless it can

> not be ignored if we are evaluating an astrology tool. A Sarini is

a

> tool used in astrology and therefore has to be evaluated on the

> standards set for it.

>

> A few years ago in Delhi an associate of Pt. Rupchand ji showed me

> the Lagna sarini used by Lal Kitab practitioners. I took that

> opportunity to study and evaluate it. It is a very tedious task

> because it involves reverse engineering.

>

> I found the following drawbacks in that Lagna Sarini :

>

> [ 1 ] The Lagna sarini is drawn at Ayanansh 23degrees. The current

[

> 2007 ] Lahiri ayanansha is at 23deg 58min 2sec. Therefore any Lagna

> worked out through this Sarini will be off by 58 min and 2sec [

here

> the word min and sec mean the minute and seconds of a degree and

not

> time]

>

> [ 2 ] The Sarini is drawn for the Longitude 82E0 and Latitude 26N0.

> This place will be near Allahabad Therefore the Ascendant degrees

> shown by this Sarini will be for a birth near Allahabad. Using this

> Sarini for any birth in Punjab, or for that matter any where else

in

> India, will be criminal in astrological terms.

>

> Before I move on to point out other mistakes in the Sarini I would

> request any one to find out for himself as to what I have said is

> true or not.

>

> Whenever we have to find out the co-ordinates of any Lagna Sarini,

> the most appropriate parameter to start from is a Surya sankranti

> day. There are 12 sankrantis in a year. A sankranti is a day when

> the Sun moves to the next Rasi [ zodiac sign] . These sankrantis of

> the Sun fall on the same date every year.

>

> As an example let's take up the Makar Sankranti day. It falls on

> January 14th every year. The astrology dictum is `the sun will rise

> in the first degree of the sign on that day'. Therefore the

> Ascendant at the time of the sunrise on the 14th January will be

> within the first degree of Makar [ Capricorn]

>

> The time of Capricorn rising on the 14th of January shown in the

> Lagna sarini under discussion is 6:55am and lasts till 8:37am

>

> Now take up any kundali software, change the ayanansh to 23deg [ ie

> 58'-2 " less than current Lahiri ayanansh ] feed the data : birth at

> 6:55am at 82E0 ; 26N0 and see for your self that the ascendant will

> be 0cap31 ; this value is within the first degree of Capricorn.

>

> This will prove my contentions that the Sarini is drawn:

> ( i )at 23deg ayanansha which is 58':2 " less than what is today

> ( ii ) for longitude 82E0 and Latitude 26N0 [hence not applicable

> for the rest of the country]

>

> Now coming to other misprints amounting to mistakes in the lagna

> sarini under discussion:

>

> [ 1 ] Add up the duration of all the 12 Lagna for any day. The

total

> doesn't come to 24 hours. Now who will believe that the earth

> revolved one complete circle on its axis in less than 24 hours. The

> total of all the 12 Lagna duration has to be 24 hours, no less no

> more.

>

> [ 2 ] From January till the end of December the time of rising of

> every lagna keeps reducing by 4 minutes every day i.e. every lagna

> rises 4 minutes before its previous day rising time.

> In the sarini have a look at the rising time of lagna on the

January

> 13th and January 14th. The difference printed is just one minute.

> This mistake is carried on all along. No body will believe that the

> Lagna which rises 4 minutes early every next day, will rise only

one

> minute early on that day.

>

> These movements are astronomically controlled; they are not

> subjective. These are universal truths.

>

> Summarizing, I find the Sarini of no use whatsoever. Yes for some

> people it might have a sentimental value but it has no astrological

> value. In an academic scrutiny sentiments do not count, the

findings

> are based on objective parameters.

>

> If some one turns up and says that the Lal Kitab doesn't need the

> kind of precision I have talked about, in that case they need not

> depend on the Sarini under discussion. Every Panchang published

> carries a sarini based on the place it is published from. They can

> use that sarini for sthool [ approximate ] Lagna , because the

Lagna

> is going to be the same for almost two hours for the major part of

> India.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Bhooshan Priya

> msg:957

> Re: Lagn sarani : an inaccurate document

>

> Respected Bhooshan JI

>

>

> I also tried to solve this puzzle of sarani a couple of months

> before.But I found that the latitude & longitude were near about

> Varanasi = 82E30 25N20. at 23 ayananshas.

>

>

> I think this Saarani blongs to the area of Varanasi (U.P.).In my

> opinion also, this sarani cant be logical for the abroad borned in

> these days. I think all other experts can through some light,

having

> some authentic & historical key-pages about it.Otherwise its no use

> in my opinion.I have a clear concept that--- Chahey chandar ko

khada

> ghodaa banaa diyaa jaaye, nakshattar bhi bhoola diye jaayain raashi

> ko bhi chhod diyaa jaaye.Fir bhi lagan sarani kee baat chalney par

> Dharatee(EARTH) ka ghoomnaa kabhi bhi nazar andaaz nahi kiyaa ja

> saktaa.Kyonki lagan saarni seedhey seedhey isse sambandh rakhtee

hai.

> U try these latitude & longitudes also plz for more confirmation.I

> will also be satisfied that one is here who can understand this

logic.

>

> With Regards

>

> Pt. Lalkitabee

> www.lalkitabee.com

> Mb. 9812020001

> *

> *Lalkitab Group msg:10478

> Re: Lagn sarani IS AN INACCURATE DOCUMENT!!!

>

> Dear Bhatia ji,

>

> You seem to be misinformed about the Vedic astrology.

>

> Rahu and Ketu being together in the same house or Mercury and Venus

> being 7 houses away from the Sun is a Vedic astrology concept.

There

> is nothing illogical or un-vedic about it. The Vedic astrology had

> long back propounded this concept. The Lal Kitab has just followed

> it.

>

> Rahu and Ketu not only can be but compulsorily have to be in the

> same house in the following TEN divisional charts:

>

> D-2

> D-5

> D-6

> D-8

> D-16

> D-20

> D-24

> D-30

> D-40

> D-45

>

> In divisional charts Venus can be 180 degrees away from the Sun and

> so can be Mercury. Astronomically Venus cannot be more than 49

> degrees away from the Sun.

>

> But the things are different with the Janma Kundali. Since the

Janma

> Kundali is a map of the sky at the time of birth, the planets,

> including the nodes, have to be shown or plotted as they appear in

> the sky under the astronomical rules. Similarly the Ascendant has

to

> be the sign, which is rising at the horizon at the time of birth.

> The accuracy of the Ascendant cannot be compromised.

>

> Even the Lal Kitab follows the Vedic rules for the Janma Kundali.

It

> is only in the Varsh Phal chart that the Rahu and Ketu can be in

the

> adjacent houses and Venus and mercury 7 houses away. In a kundali

> prepared through Palmistry both the Rahu and the Ketu can be in the

> same house. None of the above is against the principles of vedic

> astrology.

>

> Therefore the argument that if we accept Rahu and ketu together in

> the same house or in adjacent houses, might as well accept an

> incorrect ascendant calculated through an inaccurate Sarini,

doesn't

> hold good.

>

> I agree with you when you say that those who do not have faith on

> the Sarini because it is inaccurate are free to keep away from it,

> or reject it as an obsolete tool.

>

> You have said in no uncertain terms that you would continue to use

> the same Sarini. I appreciate your stand.

>

> *

>