Shani 5th & almonds upaya : Shri Yograj ji

[Guest guest]

Respected Sharma ji,

 

You need not apologize. All of us are, in a way, laymen as far as

the Lal Kitab is concerned. The difference at the most, could be

that some are slightly more knowledgeable than others. In my case I

can say that it might take the whole lifetime to decipher and

understand the logic behind the Lal Kitab.

 

Now coming to your queries :

 

[ 1 ] The Saturn placed in the 5th house can only be moved to the

7th, 11th and the 2nd house along the `Drishti path' … angle of

sight. What would be the effect of moving the Saturn to these houses

can be read from the book. Moving the Saturn will depend on where

the other planets are placed in the Janma Kundali.

 

[ 2 ] The book says that the Sun and Saturn placed together will

not quarrel. I think lets accept that as a dictum. As far as the

effect on the marital life is concerned it could be affected by

other factors also.

 

[ 3 ] The book says that the Saturn in the 5th house could effect

the progeny, in terms of numbers or age, only if there is a mangal

bud in the kundali. I believe that mangal bud per se can not effect

the progeny unless it has some kind of relationship with the 5th

house also. For example if a mangal bud is placed in the 10th,11th

or the 2nd house then only it can have an aspect on the 5th house

and might, I said might, effect the progeny adversely.

 

[ 4 ] umra means age.

 

[ 5 ] In the book there are 10 statements made for the nek effects

as against 8 for manda effects of the Saturn in the 5th house. I am

afraid you will have to read them from the book.

 

[ 6 ] Shri Prabhakar ji had asked what would be the result of

keeping the almonds tied up in cloth where cloth represents venus. I

had through the Masnuyee concept proved that almonds [ Saturn ] tied

in cloth [ venus] will not form any harmful planet. The two together

would form exalted ketu which will be beneficial in the 5th house [

east corner of the house]

 

[ 7 ] It would be perfectly justified if the almonds brought back

from the temple are kept in any rectangular container [ mangal

shubh ] of brass [ Jupiter ] or silver [ moon ]. If one cannot get

these containers than he can keep them in a white or yellow silk

cloth. But keeping these almonds in a container, of whatever shape,

of iron or an earthen pot is absolutely wrong and should not be done.

 

[ 8 ] The logic of quantity is simple. The Saturn is placed in the

5th house. Therefore we need at least 5 almonds to be brought back

home after having taken an oath not to do mischief. Now in order to

bring back home 5 almonds, we have to offer at least 10 almonds at

the temple then only the half to be brought back would be 5 almonds.

Now for how many days this upaya should be done ? Simple, the Saturn

placed in the 5th will have to be taken to the temple five times to

get sworn. Thus you need a total of 50 almonds. Take 10 almonds each

day for 5 days regularly. Bring back home 5 of them.

Some astrologers might suggest that the upaya be done for 13 days or

43 days. They cannot be termed wrong either. But the upaya is to be

done for at least 5 days regularly is a minimum requirement.

 

[ 9 ] Sure, if you can get a silver or brass container of a

square / rectangular shape to keep the almonds in, that is perfectly

OK and in keeping with the spirit of the upaya.

 

I hope I have answered all your points. You are most welcome to seek

further clarifications if any. Of course you know that we do not

discuss individual horoscopes in this group.

 

With Regards,

 

Varun Trivedi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Dharmender Sharma "

<dksrenu wrote:

>

> Respected Varun Ji,

> With due apologies in the first place being a layman for Lal

kitab, I would like to seek more clarifications on your response

below -

>

> 1. If Shani (almonds) have moved from 5th house to any other

place, what exactly would be the consequenses of this act? Please

share some observable examples in order to confirm if such

environment is building up in Jatak's life.

> 2. If consider the otherway round (Mushtarqa) does this

combinition makes sure that both the planets are not fighting

(jhagda) with each other? What are the practical implications of

this statement in one's life? Will it be warrented to extend this

term " Jhagda koi nahi karta ho " to imagine a peaceful family life?

> 3. Please elaborate on " Mangal bud " a little more here, if time

permits.

> 4. Is word " umra " means life or something else?

> 5. What might be the benefic effects of Shani if Shani is not

moved from its place?

> 6. When we say Venus+Saturn =Ucch ka ketu, what exactly it implies?

> 7. What I understood from your explanation about keeping almonds

in iron box (here Kulbir ji and you both have assumed that Jatak had

used square or rectangular shape box, what if jatak had used

cylenderical shape box?) will bring saturn in the dayara of mercury,

but what I fail to understand is that in both the conditions

(keeping almonds in yellow thaili or keeping almonds in Iron box)

situation remained almost same. Rather i would say situation for

Jatak were same even before doing the upaya.

> 8. Last but not the least, I am honestly unable to understand this

quantity issue of almonds. Without quoting the names of people here

I would like to point out that different people have different

perspective on the number of almonds to be taken to temple and

brought back. Only one similarity amongst all remains that, they all

say to bring half of the almonds back. The number vary from 10, 50,

86 etc. Please enlighten me on this issue also.

> 9. One point here to clarify to Kulbir Bhai is that I didnt take

the word " blessed " for granted and of course I am aware that blessed

almonds are not supposed to be eaten by anyone. Looking from the

practical perspective (again a lay man thought) is it not good to

keep these almonds in a tight lid container to be on the safer side?

Sometimes kids explore new things in home and like to experiment too

(that might go up to breaking those almonds by hammer!!!)

>

> My sincere apologies again to eat up your valuable time

> Warm regards

> Dharmender

>

> -

> varun_trvd

>

> Tuesday, October 02, 2007 2:32 AM

> Lal Kitab Discussion Group Re: Shani 5th & almonds

upaya : Shri Yograj ji

>

>

>

>

> Aadarneeya Yograj ji,

>

> My comments on what you have said in the same order :

>

> a) you have said that placing the almonds in the East

> will `create a surya aur shani ka Takrav scenario' . This is not

> true.

>

> The word Takarav is used as a defining astrological term only

when a

> planet is placed in a 6-8 position known as shadashtak position.

>

> In the eventuality of keeping the almonds in the east it will,

at

> the most, be termed as Shani and Surya `mushtarqa' for which the

> book says

> " ravi shani dono ikaththe baithe, jhagara koi nahi karta ho " [

> page 813, ed 52]

>

> Therefore keeping the almonds in the east aligned with the house

> where the Shani had belonged to will be perfectly justified.

>

> b) You have further said that ` Saturn in the 5th house

> becomes a bachche khane wala sanp'. Saturn per se by itself does

not

> become a bachche khane wala sanp unless there is a mangal bud [

> page 608 ,ed 52, footnote 1]

>

> The book goes further to say on page 608,ed 52 footnote 2 , `

aulad

> ki tadad aur umra par to beshaq manda na hoga ..'

>

> c) You have raised the question as to why the almonds ,

> brought from the temple, be kept in the same place where the

Saturn

> is placed in the Natal chart?

> The answer is simple. Had Pt.Rupchand ji wanted to shift

> Saturn from the 5th any where else he could have suggested other

> upaya like immersing in the river or burying, or establishing

the

> almonds in any of the house the almonds could possibly be moved

[

> Kulbir bhai has already pointed out this].

>

> He did not suggest shifting the Saturn because it might deprive

the

> native of its benefic effects. At the same time Pandit ji wanted

to

> make sure that the Saturn doesn't play any mischief either.

>

> Therefore Pandit ji chose to make the Saturn swear in the

presence

> of God not to play mischief, " shanishchar ne burai na karne ki

ab

> qasam khali gini jayegi " [page 611, ed 52 ]

>

> Which Saturn he makes to swear?

> The Saturn placed in the 5th.

> Therefore where should the Saturn go after it has sworn in the

> presence of God?

> The place it had originally belonged to.

> And where did it belong to originally?

> The 5th house.

>

> Then it is perfectly justified that the Saturn [almonds] brought

> back from the temple after it has taken an oath to behave be

placed

> where it had belonged. By shifting the Saturn anywhere else

would

> deprive the native of its benefic results if any. Incidentally

> Saturn in the 5th house has been termed as `dharma devta' if the

> 11th is unoccupied.

>

> d) Now coming to your point of venus coming into play if a

> cloth is used. Venus + Saturn form exalted [ uchcha ] Ketu. An

> exalted Ketu in the 5th house is always beneficial.

>

> e) Coming to your contention that by using an iron container or

> an earthen pot to keep the almonds in you have said " I think

the

> remedy of budh recommended for shni 5 is also somewhere present

in

> this modus operandi " .

>

> What Pandit ji had recommended when he suggested that the budh

ka

> upaya madadgar hoga meant that the mercury a masnuyee component

of

> the Saturn had to be set right; budh ko shubh kar liya jaye. It

is

> this masnuyee component of the Saturn which is causing the

problem

> in the 5th [Jupiter's pucca house]. By keeping the almonds in

any

> container resembling mercury you are bringing the Saturn back

into

> the `dayara' of the mercury and hence strengthening the same

> masnuyee component which has caused all the problem in the first

> place.. Where as the instruction of Pandit ji in effect means to

> liberate the Saturn from the clutches of the `dayara' of the

> masnuyee mercury by either appeasing it or by making it a

benefic.

>

> Therefore the almonds [ Saturn ] after they have sworn in the

> presence of God should under no circumstances be brought back

into

> the fold of mercury again. Any such action will activate the

> masnuyee component [ mercury ] and there will be no respite from

the

> problem. The problem might get aggravated further.

>

> Please point out if I have left any point raised by you

unexplained.

>

> With regards,

>

> Varun Trivedi

>

> , " Yograj Prabhakar "

> <yr_prabhakar@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Varun jee and Kulbir jee

> >

> >

> > The question of whether the Badam should be kept in Iron Dibba

or

> Yellow

> > cloth comes later, the main question here is why Saturn in 5th

> house

> > becomes a " Bachhey Khaney Wala Saanp? " In my opinion, since

the 5th

> > house (Eastern Direction) belongs to Sun, presence of Shani in

5th

> house

> > somehow creates a Surya aur Shani ka Takraav scenario. This

very

> Takraav

> > creates problem for Shukkar (Suraj Shani ke Takraav se Shukkar

> Maara

> > Jayega). Ketu (Son) is Shukkar Ka Phal; by harming Ketu Shani

> becomes a

> > Bachhey Khaney Wala Saanp in this house. Moreover, since Shani

too

> is a

> > sufferer in the hands of Sun, he transfers the effects on to

Ketu

> and

> > Ketu indirectly becomes a Balee Ka Bakraa.

> >

> >

> > Now the question of how to keep these blessed Badams, and what

can

> be

> > the best option since nothing specific in this regard has been

> said in

> > the Lal Kitab. We are all agreed that by binging back Badams

from a

> > temple " changes " their nature, I mean by doing this we believe

> that a

> > divine blessing is present in the Badams or they becomes

blessed -

> seems

> > very logical. Now what is the rationale behind keeping them in

the

> same

> > place (Eastern direction i.e. direction of the 5th house)?

Shani

> maharaj

> > is aleady present there, so why one should " eastablish " it in

the

> same

> > place ehere is it considered as malefic, only because these

are

> believed

> > to be blessed? If so, how these blessed can become unblessed

on

> other

> > place? Actually, this aspect of directions is a new dimension

> added to

> > the whole case, so a honest and detailed discussion on this

matter

> > should be done.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Regarding keeping it in Yellow or White cloth, aren't we

> forgetting that

> > Shukkar is also involved in cloths? What would be the

consequences

> of

> > involving Shukkar with Shani in the house of Sun (house no.5)?

We

> must

> > think about it.

> >

> >

> >

> > In my humble opinion, keeping these blessed Badams in an iron

Dibba

> > (Shani Budh) or in the earthen pot (medium size kooja) in the

dark

> > corner seems very logical. Secrecy and concealness is the

nature of

> > Shani, by doing this we are not only proving this to Shani but

also

> > disalllowing a snake to stroll around openly in our backyard.

We

> are

> > using Budh (empty space in the iron Dibba or earthen pot) to

give

> refuge

> > to this dangerous snake so that he can sit comfortably there

and

> could

> > not bite or scare the innocent kids playing around. I think

the

> remedy

> > of Budh recommended for Shani 5 is also somewhere present in

this

> modus

> > operandi. I request the learned Gurujans to have a look at

this

> aspect

> > too.

> >

> > Believe me, I have a solid reason of advocating this method,

> because, I

> > myself have kept the blessed Badams in an Iron Dibba in a dark

> corner of

> > my house for many many years, and none other than Great Pt.

Rup

> Chand

> > Joshi jee recommended it way back in the year 1978.

> >

> >

> >

> > Respectfully

> >

> > Yograj Prabhakar

> >

> >

> >

> > Affluent

> >

> >

> >

> > , " varun_trvd "

> > <varun_trvd@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Respected Sharma ji,

> > >

> > > In this group we take a very dispassionate view on topics

and

> try to

> > > understand the logic behind them. We believe our small

> cotribution

> > > to the knowledge of Lal Kitab will go a long way to

understand

> and

> > > implement the concepts and the principles of Lal Kitab

> > >

> > > Our effort is to develop a scientific temper towards the Lal

> Kitab

> > > and to bring it out of the mysterious world of myths and

legends.

> > >

> > > It is so encouraging to find people like Lalkitabee ji and

Kulbir

> > > bhai participating in the discussion.

> > >

> > > Soon the concept of scientific enquiry into Lal Kitab would

> snowball

> > > into some thing big and wonderful.

> > >

> > > With regards,

> > >

> > > Varun Trivedi

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " Dharmender

Sharma "

> > > dksrenu@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kulbir Ji and Varun Ji,

> > > > I believe that Lalkitab knowledge is a social asset for

all of

> us

> > > now. Remaining firm on this belief, it would be a right step

to

> > > discuss this issue at length, including the logical approach

> people

> > > and MAD club scholars. More we are objective here and agree

upon

> > > logical approach proved with the experiments and results,

more it

> > > would help us to understand and practice lal kitab approach.

> > > > So I would like to humbly request all scholars of Lal

Kitab to

> > > share their thoughts on this.

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > > Dharmender Sharma

> > > >

> > > > -

> > > > kulbir bains

> > > >

> > > > Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:07 PM

> > > > Lal Kitab Discussion Group Re: Shani 5th & budh

ka

> upaya

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Varun ji, these type of answers will go a long way in

> > > dispellling the darkness of ignorance associated with

lalkitab

> > > upayas. don't want to take names but i have myself seen some

> people

> > > who considers themselves ACHARYAs and URDU EXPERT GURUS

> recommending

> > > this iron box + darkness upaya.

> > > > sahi mayno mein is group ki wajah se ab kahin jakar

lalkitab

> par

> > > asli kaam shuru hua hai. otherwise there are many MAD( mutual

> > > admiration) clubs.

> > > >

> > > kulbir bains

> > > >

> > > > varun_trvd varun_trvd@ wrote:

> > > > Respected Sharma ji,

> > > >

> > > > I am afraid keeping the almonds brought back from the

> temple,

> > > in an

> > > > iron container in a dark corner is not the correct

> procedure.

> > > >

> > > > The upaya is for the Saturn in the 5th house. Half of the

> > > almonds

> > > > which are considered to have been blessed and which are

> > > brought back

> > > > from the temple also belong to the 5th house. Therefore

> these

> > > > almonds have to be kept in the east [ 5th house ]and not

> in a

> > > dark

> > > > corner of the house.

> > > >

> > > > These blessed almonds should be kept tied in a yellow cloth

> > > because

> > > > the 5th house is a pucca ghar of the jupiter. These almonds

> > > can also

> > > > be kept in a white silk cloth represnting Moon [sun +

> Jupiter

> > > form

> > > > Moon]; sun is the owner of the 5th and the 5th is a pucca

> ghar

> > > of

> > > > jupiter.

> > > >

> > > > Keeping these almonds back into an iron container in a dark

> > > place

> > > > would amount to unbless these almonds by handing them over

> to

> > > the

> > > > Saturn all over again.

> > > >

> > > > With Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Varun Trivedi

> > > >

> > > > , " Dharmender

> > > Sharma "

> > > > <dksrenu@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Respected Gurujans,

> > > > > I am keen on knowing more about upayas related to Saturn

> > > malefic

> > > > in the given situation. My humble question regarding the

> upaya

> > > is -

> > > > why half of the almonds carried back home needs to be kept

> in

> > > a

> > > > tight container and in a dark place? What planet iron

> > > container

> > > > represents and what aspect is covered by the dark corner of

> > > the

> > > > house?

> > > > >

> > > > > Please enlighten me.

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > Dharmender Sharma

> > > > >

> > > > > -

> > > > > varun_trvd

> > > > >

> > > > > Saturday, September 29, 2007 8:55 PM

> > > > > Lal Kitab Discussion Group Re: Shani 5th & budh

> ka

> > > upaya

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Respected Miglani ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > I have checked both the 1941 and 42 editions and what you

> > > have

> > > > said

> > > > > is right. You are also right for what is said in the 1952

> > > book.

> > > > >

> > > > > In my opinion the logic for the budh ka upaya mentioned

> in

> > > both

> > > > the

> > > > > earlier editions could be this:

> > > > >

> > > > > Saturn malefic consists of Mars + Mercury. The Mars

> > > constituent

> > > > of

> > > > > this combination can not do any harm in the 5th house

> which

> > > is

> > > > owned

> > > > > by the Sun and Jupiter [associated as the pucca ghar

> owner].

> > > > Both

> > > > > the Sun and the Jupiter are friends of Mars. Therefore

> the

> > > only

> > > > > possibility of any malefic out come of Saturn in the 5th

> > > could

> > > > be

> > > > > due to the Mercury component of Saturn. That is why

> Pandit

> > > > Rupchand

> > > > > ji advised the `budh ka upaya sahayak hoga'.

> > > > >

> > > > > The 5th house may not apparently be associated with

> mercury

> > > as

> > > > such

> > > > > but in this case the upaya is suggested not because of

> the

> > > house

> > > > but

> > > > > because of the constituent component of the planet.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regarding the second part of your query, in my opinion

> > > > Pt.Rupchand

> > > > > ji did not drop the budh ka upaya instead he suggested

> some

> > > > > alternative upaya also in his 1952 book. I believe that

> the

> > > budh

> > > > ka

> > > > > upaya would still be very relevant because it is very

> > > logically

> > > > > devised. All the five Lal Kitab books form a continuous

> > > series

> > > > and

> > > > > should not be taken as five different books.

> > > > >

> > > > > However I would agree that Pt.Rupchand ji in his 1952

> > > edition

> > > > > devised the almonds upaya for the Saturn as a whole

> instead

> > > of

> > > > for a

> > > > > part of it. This new devised upaya could have been based

> on

> > > the

> > > > > feedback he might have received from his followers.

> > > > >

> > > > > I therefore feel that both the upaya can be done. If you

> > > feel

> > > > that

> > > > > there are any indications of only mercury being malefic

> in

> > > that

> > > > case

> > > > > there is no harm if budh ka upaya alone is done.

> > > > >

> > > > > With regards,

> > > > >

> > > > > Varun Trivedi

> > > > >

> > > > > , " kpmiglani "

> > > > > <kpmiglani@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sir,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For Saturn in the 5th house both the Gutka of 1941 and

> the

> > > > 1942 ed

> > > > > > recommend ' budh ka upaya sahayak hoga'. There is no

> > > mention

> > > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > almonds upaya of offering at the temple and bringing

> back

> > > half

> > > > of

> > > > > > them.

> > > > > > In the 1952 book for the same shani in the 5th there

> is no

> > > > mention

> > > > > > of 'budh ka upaya' instead the almonds upaya is

> mentioned,

> > > not

> > > > > once

> > > > > > but three times. There are other upayas also mentioned

> but

> > > not

> > > > the

> > > > > > budh ka upaya.

> > > > > > What intrigues me is that the 5th house is in no way

> > > related

> > > > to

> > > > > > mercury and yet the upaya of mercury is suggested. But

> why

> > > the

> > > > > same

> > > > > > upaya is not suggested in the 1952 edition and a new

> upaya

> > > is

> > > > > > devised.

> > > > > > Does it mean that Joshi ji realised that the budh ka

> upaya

> > > is

> > > > not

> > > > > as

> > > > > > effective as he thought it to be and changed the upaya

> > > > altogether.

> > > > > > Or is it true that Joshi ji understood the Lal Kitab

> > > system

> > > > better

> > > > > > during those intervening ten years?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Respectfully,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > KP Miglani

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Kulbir Bains

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > -------------------------

> ----

> > > -----------

> > > > Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. Click

> here to

> > > know how.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Varun Bhai,

 

Your scholarly explanation to each point raised by me is simply superb;

please accept my salutations for this endevour. But, I am not agreeing

with some of the points. I am putting these points one by one.

 

The meanings of word Takraav is is not necessarily what you have

described. Takraav is also " Dushmnana Asar " arising out of

confrontational situation of various planets

(LK 1940,page 138 line no.20).

 

The single line you have mentioned:

" ravi shani dono ikaththe baithe, jhagara koi nahi karta ho "

regarding Suraj Shani mushtarka does not reflect the full picture,

perhaps the following lines can:

 

" Vajah kisi hon jab kabhi ladtey, Budh zahar aa bharta ho

Nateeja wohi jo ravi ho tewe,Shani shakki hi hota ho.

Jhagda dono ka lamba badhtey,Neech rahu Bad mangal ho.. "

 

 

You have mentioned the primary line, not touched the mandi halat. My

question is if Suraj Shani mushtarka are not ashubh, then why this

condition is treated like a Surya Grahan? And why the remedy of Surya

Grahan was recommended by Pundit jee for this combination?

 

" Duniya mein suraj grahan ke waqt saneechar ki cheezen Badam, nariyal

vagairah chaltey pani mein bahana mubarik hoga.

(page no. 817 line no. 3-4) "

 

Few more examples from the same chapter (Suraj Saneechar):

 

(1). " Mushtarka halat mein suraj bandar aur saneechar saanp ke bahmee

ladayee ke haal kee tarah qismat mein Jamah (suraj), tafreeq

(saneechar) barbaad hogi.dono ki bahmee ladayi mein shukkar (istree aur

istree bhag) manda balki barbaad hoga....... "

(Page 814, line 6,7,8)

 

(2). " ..Do munh ka saanp, Masnooyee Mangal bad aur neech Rahu ki

shararat ka asar maujood ho...... "

(Page 816 line no. 12)

 

(3). " .... Rahu Ketu dono hi mandey hongey.... "

(Page 817, line 13)

 

(4). " Jel khana varna pagal khana miley. "

(page 818, Line no. 1,2,3)

 

(5). " Saneechar ka asar vastey ketu (aulad ketu ki ashiya ya karobar

mutalliqa ketu) manda hoga..... "

(page 818, Line no. 13,14)

 

You have said that Shani will not become a Bachey khaney wala saanp

unless there is Mangal Bad, I am 100% agree with you. But Varun Bhai,

Sun and Saturn mushtarka itself is a condition of Mangal Bad, Isnt it?

 

" Suraj Saneechar Mushtarka mein jab jahan aur kahin bhi do mein se kisi

ek ka phal kharab ho, tewe mein 22 ya 34 saala umar tak Rahu bhi manda

aur mangal bad ka asar dega.... "

(Footnote on page no. 813)

 

As far as your point regarding bringing back Shani into Budh ka dayra is

concerned I would like to say How can you escape or deny presence of

Budh? It is everywhere, every planet is tied in its spherical shape.

Pundit jee has described it beautifully:

 

" Jidhar Dekhta hoon udhar tu hi tu hai,

ki har shaiy mein jalwa tera hoo-bahoo hai. "

(LK 1940 Page no.177 last 2 lines)

 

Finally, regarding keeping these blessed Badams in a particular

direction or in a particular thing. It is said

" Dharam Asthan mein Badam Lejakar, adhey wapis Lakar Ghar mein Qayam

karen. "

(LK-1952, Page no. 610, last 2 lines)

 

Now the word Qayam is a very important one, we all know that " Paapi

Grahon ki Paalna " is one of the remedial steps mentioned in the Lal

Kitab, so I think that providing a Papi planet a hospitable place (as

darkness for Shani) in lieu of their Paap Na Karney Ki Qasam is like

appeasing them. yes the consideration of shape of the container is

important.

 

You have cautioned that the problem will aggravate further if Masnuyee

Budh is " activated " , is there any mention of that kind in Lal Kitab? Or

do you have any practical data? Believe me, I really wanted to know

that, because I too have Saturn in 5th house.

 

Respectfully

Yograj Prabhakar

 

 

, " varun_trvd "

<varun_trvd wrote:

>

>

>

> Aadarneeya Yograj ji,

>

> My comments on what you have said in the same order :

>

> a) you have said that placing the almonds in the East

> will `create a surya aur shani ka Takrav scenario' . This is not

> true.

>

> The word Takarav is used as a defining astrological term only when a

> planet is placed in a 6-8 position known as shadashtak position.

>

> In the eventuality of keeping the almonds in the east it will, at

> the most, be termed as Shani and Surya `mushtarqa' for which the

> book says

> " ravi shani dono ikaththe baithe, jhagara koi nahi karta ho " [

> page 813, ed 52]

>

> Therefore keeping the almonds in the east aligned with the house

> where the Shani had belonged to will be perfectly justified.

>

> b) You have further said that ` Saturn in the 5th house

> becomes a bachche khane wala sanp'. Saturn per se by itself does not

> become a bachche khane wala sanp unless there is a mangal bud [

> page 608 ,ed 52, footnote 1]

>

> The book goes further to say on page 608,ed 52 footnote 2 , ` aulad

> ki tadad aur umra par to beshaq manda na hoga ….'

>

>

> c) You have raised the question as to why the almonds ,

> brought from the temple, be kept in the same place where the Saturn

> is placed in the Natal chart?

> The answer is simple. Had Pt.Rupchand ji wanted to shift

> Saturn from the 5th any where else he could have suggested other

> upaya like immersing in the river or burying, or establishing the

> almonds in any of the house the almonds could possibly be moved [

> Kulbir bhai has already pointed out this].

>

> He did not suggest shifting the Saturn because it might deprive the

> native of its benefic effects. At the same time Pandit ji wanted to

> make sure that the Saturn doesn't play any mischief either.

>

> Therefore Pandit ji chose to make the Saturn swear in the presence

> of God not to play mischief, " shanishchar ne burai na karne ki ab

> qasam khali gini jayegi " [page 611, ed 52 ]

>

> Which Saturn he makes to swear?

> The Saturn placed in the 5th.

> Therefore where should the Saturn go after it has sworn in the

> presence of God?

> The place it had originally belonged to.

> And where did it belong to originally?

> The 5th house.

>

> Then it is perfectly justified that the Saturn [almonds] brought

> back from the temple after it has taken an oath to behave be placed

> where it had belonged. By shifting the Saturn anywhere else would

> deprive the native of its benefic results if any. Incidentally

> Saturn in the 5th house has been termed as `dharma devta' if the

> 11th is unoccupied.

>

>

>

> d) Now coming to your point of venus coming into play if a

> cloth is used. Venus + Saturn form exalted [ uchcha ] Ketu. An

> exalted Ketu in the 5th house is always beneficial.

>

> e) Coming to your contention that by using an iron container or

> an earthen pot to keep the almonds in you have said " I think the

> remedy of budh recommended for shni 5 is also somewhere present in

> this modus operandi " .

>

> What Pandit ji had recommended when he suggested that the budh ka

> upaya madadgar hoga meant that the mercury a masnuyee component of

> the Saturn had to be set right; budh ko shubh kar liya jaye. It is

> this masnuyee component of the Saturn which is causing the problem

> in the 5th [Jupiter's pucca house]. By keeping the almonds in any

> container resembling mercury you are bringing the Saturn back into

> the `dayara' of the mercury and hence strengthening the same

> masnuyee component which has caused all the problem in the first

> place.. Where as the instruction of Pandit ji in effect means to

> liberate the Saturn from the clutches of the `dayara' of the

> masnuyee mercury by either appeasing it or by making it a benefic.

>

> Therefore the almonds [ Saturn ] after they have sworn in the

> presence of God should under no circumstances be brought back into

> the fold of mercury again. Any such action will activate the

> masnuyee component [ mercury ] and there will be no respite from the

> problem. The problem might get aggravated further.

>

> Please point out if I have left any point raised by you unexplained.

>

> With regards,

>

> Varun Trivedi

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

, " Yograj Prabhakar "

> yr_prabhakar@ wrote:

> >

> > Dear Varun jee and Kulbir jee

> >

> >

> > The question of whether the Badam should be kept in Iron Dibba or

> Yellow

> > cloth comes later, the main question here is why Saturn in 5th

> house

> > becomes a " Bachhey Khaney Wala Saanp? " In my opinion, since the 5th

> > house (Eastern Direction) belongs to Sun, presence of Shani in 5th

> house

> > somehow creates a Surya aur Shani ka Takraav scenario. This very

> Takraav

> > creates problem for Shukkar (Suraj Shani ke Takraav se Shukkar

> Maara

> > Jayega). Ketu (Son) is Shukkar Ka Phal; by harming Ketu Shani

> becomes a

> > Bachhey Khaney Wala Saanp in this house. Moreover, since Shani too

> is a

> > sufferer in the hands of Sun, he transfers the effects on to Ketu

> and

> > Ketu indirectly becomes a Balee Ka Bakraa.

> >

> >

> > Now the question of how to keep these blessed Badams, and what can

> be

> > the best option since nothing specific in this regard has been

> said in

> > the Lal Kitab. We are all agreed that by binging back Badams from a

> > temple " changes " their nature, I mean by doing this we believe

> that a

> > divine blessing is present in the Badams or they becomes blessed -

> seems

> > very logical. Now what is the rationale behind keeping them in the

> same

> > place (Eastern direction i.e. direction of the 5th house)? Shani

> maharaj

> > is aleady present there, so why one should " eastablish " it in the

> same

> > place ehere is it considered as malefic, only because these are

> believed

> > to be blessed? If so, how these blessed can become unblessed on

> other

> > place? Actually, this aspect of directions is a new dimension

> added to

> > the whole case, so a honest and detailed discussion on this matter

> > should be done.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Regarding keeping it in Yellow or White cloth, aren't we

> forgetting that

> > Shukkar is also involved in cloths? What would be the consequences

> of

> > involving Shukkar with Shani in the house of Sun (house no.5)? We

> must

> > think about it.

> >

> >

> >

> > In my humble opinion, keeping these blessed Badams in an iron Dibba

> > (Shani Budh) or in the earthen pot (medium size kooja) in the dark

> > corner seems very logical. Secrecy and concealness is the nature of

> > Shani, by doing this we are not only proving this to Shani but also

> > disalllowing a snake to stroll around openly in our backyard. We

> are

> > using Budh (empty space in the iron Dibba or earthen pot) to give

> refuge

> > to this dangerous snake so that he can sit comfortably there and

> could

> > not bite or scare the innocent kids playing around. I think the

> remedy

> > of Budh recommended for Shani 5 is also somewhere present in this

> modus

> > operandi. I request the learned Gurujans to have a look at this

> aspect

> > too.

> >

> > Believe me, I have a solid reason of advocating this method,

> because, I

> > myself have kept the blessed Badams in an Iron Dibba in a dark

> corner of

> > my house for many many years, and none other than Great Pt. Rup

> Chand

> > Joshi jee recommended it way back in the year 1978.

> >

> >

> >

> > Respectfully

> >

> > Yograj Prabhakar

> >

> >

> >

> > Affluent

> >

> >

> >

> > , " varun_trvd "

> > <varun_trvd@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Respected Sharma ji,

> > >

> > > In this group we take a very dispassionate view on topics and

> try to

> > > understand the logic behind them. We believe our small

> cotribution

> > > to the knowledge of Lal Kitab will go a long way to understand

> and

> > > implement the concepts and the principles of Lal Kitab

> > >

> > > Our effort is to develop a scientific temper towards the Lal

> Kitab

> > > and to bring it out of the mysterious world of myths and legends.

> > >

> > > It is so encouraging to find people like Lalkitabee ji and Kulbir

> > > bhai participating in the discussion.

> > >

> > > Soon the concept of scientific enquiry into Lal Kitab would

> snowball

> > > into some thing big and wonderful.

> > >

> > > With regards,

> > >

> > > Varun Trivedi

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " Dharmender Sharma "

> > > dksrenu@ wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Kulbir Ji and Varun Ji,

> > > > I believe that Lalkitab knowledge is a social asset for all of

> us

> > > now. Remaining firm on this belief, it would be a right step to

> > > discuss this issue at length, including the logical approach

> people

> > > and MAD club scholars. More we are objective here and agree upon

> > > logical approach proved with the experiments and results, more it

> > > would help us to understand and practice lal kitab approach.

> > > > So I would like to humbly request all scholars of Lal Kitab to

> > > share their thoughts on this.

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > > Dharmender Sharma

> > > >

> > > > -

> > > > kulbir bains

> > > >

> > > > Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:07 PM

> > > > Lal Kitab Discussion Group Re: Shani 5th & budh ka

> upaya

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Varun ji, these type of answers will go a long way in

> > > dispellling the darkness of ignorance associated with lalkitab

> > > upayas. don't want to take names but i have myself seen some

> people

> > > who considers themselves ACHARYAs and URDU EXPERT GURUS

> recommending

> > > this iron box + darkness upaya.

> > > > sahi mayno mein is group ki wajah se ab kahin jakar lalkitab

> par

> > > asli kaam shuru hua hai. otherwise there are many MAD( mutual

> > > admiration) clubs.

> > > >

> > > kulbir bains

> > > >

> > > > varun_trvd varun_trvd@ wrote:

> > > > Respected Sharma ji,

> > > >

> > > > I am afraid keeping the almonds brought back from the

> temple,

> > > in an

> > > > iron container in a dark corner is not the correct

> procedure.

> > > >

> > > > The upaya is for the Saturn in the 5th house. Half of the

> > > almonds

> > > > which are considered to have been blessed and which are

> > > brought back

> > > > from the temple also belong to the 5th house. Therefore

> these

> > > > almonds have to be kept in the east [ 5th house ]and not

> in a

> > > dark

> > > > corner of the house.

> > > >

> > > > These blessed almonds should be kept tied in a yellow cloth

> > > because

> > > > the 5th house is a pucca ghar of the jupiter. These almonds

> > > can also

> > > > be kept in a white silk cloth represnting Moon [sun +

> Jupiter

> > > form

> > > > Moon]; sun is the owner of the 5th and the 5th is a pucca

> ghar

> > > of

> > > > jupiter.

> > > >

> > > > Keeping these almonds back into an iron container in a dark

> > > place

> > > > would amount to unbless these almonds by handing them over

> to

> > > the

> > > > Saturn all over again.

> > > >

> > > > With Regards,

> > > >

> > > > Varun Trivedi

> > > >

> > > > , " Dharmender

> > > Sharma "

> > > > <dksrenu@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Respected Gurujans,

> > > > > I am keen on knowing more about upayas related to Saturn

> > > malefic

> > > > in the given situation. My humble question regarding the

> upaya

> > > is -

> > > > why half of the almonds carried back home needs to be kept

> in

> > > a

> > > > tight container and in a dark place? What planet iron

> > > container

> > > > represents and what aspect is covered by the dark corner of

> > > the

> > > > house?

> > > > >

> > > > > Please enlighten me.

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > Dharmender Sharma

> > > > >

> > > > > -

> > > > > varun_trvd

> > > > >

> > > > > Saturday, September 29, 2007 8:55 PM

> > > > > Lal Kitab Discussion Group Re: Shani 5th & budh

> ka

> > > upaya

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Respected Miglani ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > I have checked both the 1941 and 42 editions and what you

> > > have

> > > > said

> > > > > is right. You are also right for what is said in the 1952

> > > book.

> > > > >

> > > > > In my opinion the logic for the budh ka upaya mentioned

> in

> > > both

> > > > the

> > > > > earlier editions could be this:

> > > > >

> > > > > Saturn malefic consists of Mars + Mercury. The Mars

> > > constituent

> > > > of

> > > > > this combination can not do any harm in the 5th house

> which

> > > is

> > > > owned

> > > > > by the Sun and Jupiter [associated as the pucca ghar

> owner].

> > > > Both

> > > > > the Sun and the Jupiter are friends of Mars. Therefore

> the

> > > only

> > > > > possibility of any malefic out come of Saturn in the 5th

> > > could

> > > > be

> > > > > due to the Mercury component of Saturn. That is why

> Pandit

> > > > Rupchand

> > > > > ji advised the `budh ka upaya sahayak hoga'.

> > > > >

> > > > > The 5th house may not apparently be associated with

> mercury

> > > as

> > > > such

> > > > > but in this case the upaya is suggested not because of

> the

> > > house

> > > > but

> > > > > because of the constituent component of the planet.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regarding the second part of your query, in my opinion

> > > > Pt.Rupchand

> > > > > ji did not drop the budh ka upaya instead he suggested

> some

> > > > > alternative upaya also in his 1952 book. I believe that

> the

> > > budh

> > > > ka

> > > > > upaya would still be very relevant because it is very

> > > logically

> > > > > devised. All the five Lal Kitab books form a continuous

> > > series

> > > > and

> > > > > should not be taken as five different books.

> > > > >

> > > > > However I would agree that Pt.Rupchand ji in his 1952

> > > edition

> > > > > devised the almonds upaya for the Saturn as a whole

> instead

> > > of

> > > > for a

> > > > > part of it. This new devised upaya could have been based

> on

> > > the

> > > > > feedback he might have received from his followers.

> > > > >

> > > > > I therefore feel that both the upaya can be done. If you

> > > feel

> > > > that

> > > > > there are any indications of only mercury being malefic

> in

> > > that

> > > > case

> > > > > there is no harm if budh ka upaya alone is done.

> > > > >

> > > > > With regards,

> > > > >

> > > > > Varun Trivedi

> > > > >

> > > > > , " kpmiglani "

> > > > > <kpmiglani@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sir,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For Saturn in the 5th house both the Gutka of 1941 and

> the

> > > > 1942 ed

> > > > > > recommend ' budh ka upaya sahayak hoga'. There is no

> > > mention

> > > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > almonds upaya of offering at the temple and bringing

> back

> > > half

> > > > of

> > > > > > them.

> > > > > > In the 1952 book for the same shani in the 5th there

> is no

> > > > mention

> > > > > > of 'budh ka upaya' instead the almonds upaya is

> mentioned,

> > > not

> > > > > once

> > > > > > but three times. There are other upayas also mentioned

> but

> > > not

> > > > the

> > > > > > budh ka upaya.

> > > > > > What intrigues me is that the 5th house is in no way

> > > related

> > > > to

> > > > > > mercury and yet the upaya of mercury is suggested. But

> why

> > > the

> > > > > same

> > > > > > upaya is not suggested in the 1952 edition and a new

> upaya

> > > is

> > > > > > devised.

> > > > > > Does it mean that Joshi ji realised that the budh ka

> upaya

> > > is

> > > > not

> > > > > as

> > > > > > effective as he thought it to be and changed the upaya

> > > > altogether.

> > > > > > Or is it true that Joshi ji understood the Lal Kitab

> > > system

> > > > better

> > > > > > during those intervening ten years?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Respectfully,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > KP Miglani

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Kulbir Bains

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------

> ----

> > > -----------

> > > > Get the freedom to save as many mails as you wish. Click

> here to

> > > know how.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Respected Yog Raj ji,

 

Disagreement makes us go deep even further into subjects, which

leads to breaking new grounds of understanding, and hence further

the cause of academic research. I , therefore, welcome your

disagreement whole-heartedly.

 

[ 1 ] I use the word `takarav' in the sense that it defines

positioning of planets because this is how it is used in Vedic

astrology also. But if you feel that the word `takrav' should also

be taken to mean `dushmanana asar' [ hostile effect] , in its larger

perspective, I have absolutely no objection.

 

[ 2 ] I had quoted the very first opening line which I assume

defines the relationship between these two planets together. Had it

not been the defining line Pandit ji wouldn't have made it his

opening statement.

Secondly, we are not evaluating shani + Sun placed in the 5th. We

have to remember that there is no Sun placed in the 5th. We are

evaluating Saturn in the 5th and exploring the possibility of how

Saturn would behave in the house owned by sun. The difference to be

noted here is between the Sun placed with Saturn as against the

Saturn placed in the house owned by sun. These are two different

situations.

 

[ 3 ] You have quoted 5 manda effects of Saturn and the Sun

Mushtarqa. But in the case under study they are not mushtarqa.

There is no Sun placed in the 5th house along with the Saturn. We

are discussing only the Saturn placed in the 5th house. That being

so, the Book [ 1952 ] enumerates 10 points for nek halat and only 7

for mandi halat. Therefore your quoting for the Mustarqa sun and

Saturn would be out of place.

 

[ 4 ] While talking about shani being ` bachche khane wala sanp'

under the influence of mars bud you have said that doesn't shani +

sun become mangal bud. Yes it does. But where is the Sun ? We are

discussing Saturn placed in the 5th. The Sun got into the picture

because the 5th house belongs to the Sun. But simply because the

house belongs to the sun we cannot assume that it amounts to sun+

Saturn mushtarqa situation. We have to make a difference between a

planet being physically present in a combination as against its

effect on a planet by being a house owner.

 

[ 5 ] As for the `budh ka daiyra' issue, I still feel that the

almonds can be kept in a square/rectangular shaped container of

either brass [ Jupiter ] or silver [ moon ]. In case one can not

afford them then the almonds may be kept in either a white or a

yellow silk cloth. Here we have a difference of opinion and I would

like to stay as it is.

 

[ 6 ] Yet another point of disagreement, I would prefer to establish

[ qayam ] the almond in the 5th house where they had belonged to

rather than shift them to a dark place, which some believe is the

8th house,

 

[ 7 ] If the almonds are kept in any thing representing budh, then

budh the masnuyee component of the Saturn would get strengthened.

My belief is that the remedy of the Saturn in the 5th was in the

first place sought because of the masnuyee budh. The masnuyee Mars

will not have any adverse effects in the 5th house. It doesn't sound

logical if the same components is made to get strengthened for which

a remedy was sought.

 

It appears that you based your arguments on the presumption that we

are discussing Saturn + Sun in the 5th house. No, we are discussing

only the Saturn placed in the 5th house. Sun got into the discussion

not as a planet placed with Saturn but simply as the owner of the

house # 5.

 

With regards,

 

Varun Trivedi

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Yograj Prabhakar "

<yr_prabhakar wrote:

>

> Dear Varun Bhai,

>

> Your scholarly explanation to each point raised by me is simply

superb;

> please accept my salutations for this endevour. But, I am not

agreeing

> with some of the points. I am putting these points one by one.

>

> The meanings of word Takraav is is not necessarily what you have

> described. Takraav is also " Dushmnana Asar " arising out of

> confrontational situation of various planets

> (LK 1940,page 138 line no.20).

>

> The single line you have mentioned:

> " ravi shani dono ikaththe baithe, jhagara koi nahi karta ho "

> regarding Suraj Shani mushtarka does not reflect the full picture,

> perhaps the following lines can:

>

> " Vajah kisi hon jab kabhi ladtey, Budh zahar aa bharta ho

> Nateeja wohi jo ravi ho tewe,Shani shakki hi hota ho.

> Jhagda dono ka lamba badhtey,Neech rahu Bad mangal ho.. "

>

>

> You have mentioned the primary line, not touched the mandi halat.

My

> question is if Suraj Shani mushtarka are not ashubh, then why this

> condition is treated like a Surya Grahan? And why the remedy of

Surya

> Grahan was recommended by Pundit jee for this combination?

>

> " Duniya mein suraj grahan ke waqt saneechar ki cheezen Badam,

nariyal

> vagairah chaltey pani mein bahana mubarik hoga.

> (page no. 817 line no. 3-4) "

>

> Few more examples from the same chapter (Suraj Saneechar):

>

> (1). " Mushtarka halat mein suraj bandar aur saneechar saanp ke

bahmee

> ladayee ke haal kee tarah qismat mein Jamah (suraj), tafreeq

> (saneechar) barbaad hogi.dono ki bahmee ladayi mein shukkar

(istree aur

> istree bhag) manda balki barbaad hoga....... "

> (Page 814, line 6,7,8)

>

> (2). " ..Do munh ka saanp, Masnooyee Mangal bad aur neech Rahu ki

> shararat ka asar maujood ho...... "

> (Page 816 line no. 12)

>

> (3). " .... Rahu Ketu dono hi mandey hongey.... "

> (Page 817, line 13)

>

> (4). " Jel khana varna pagal khana miley. "

> (page 818, Line no. 1,2,3)

>

> (5). " Saneechar ka asar vastey ketu (aulad ketu ki ashiya ya

karobar

> mutalliqa ketu) manda hoga..... "

> (page 818, Line no. 13,14)

>

> You have said that Shani will not become a Bachey khaney wala saanp

> unless there is Mangal Bad, I am 100% agree with you. But Varun

Bhai,

> Sun and Saturn mushtarka itself is a condition of Mangal Bad, Isnt

it?

>

> " Suraj Saneechar Mushtarka mein jab jahan aur kahin bhi do mein se

kisi

> ek ka phal kharab ho, tewe mein 22 ya 34 saala umar tak Rahu bhi

manda

> aur mangal bad ka asar dega.... "

> (Footnote on page no. 813)

>

> As far as your point regarding bringing back Shani into Budh ka

dayra is

> concerned I would like to say How can you escape or deny presence

of

> Budh? It is everywhere, every planet is tied in its spherical

shape.

> Pundit jee has described it beautifully:

>

> " Jidhar Dekhta hoon udhar tu hi tu hai,

> ki har shaiy mein jalwa tera hoo-bahoo hai. "

> (LK 1940 Page no.177 last 2 lines)

>

> Finally, regarding keeping these blessed Badams in a particular

> direction or in a particular thing. It is said

> " Dharam Asthan mein Badam Lejakar, adhey wapis Lakar Ghar mein

Qayam

> karen. "

> (LK-1952, Page no. 610, last 2 lines)

>

> Now the word Qayam is a very important one, we all know that " Paapi

> Grahon ki Paalna " is one of the remedial steps mentioned in the Lal

> Kitab, so I think that providing a Papi planet a hospitable place

(as

> darkness for Shani) in lieu of their Paap Na Karney Ki Qasam is

like

> appeasing them. yes the consideration of shape of the container is

> important.

>

> You have cautioned that the problem will aggravate further if

Masnuyee

> Budh is " activated " , is there any mention of that kind in Lal

Kitab? Or

> do you have any practical data? Believe me, I really wanted to know

> that, because I too have Saturn in 5th house.

>

> Respectfully

> Yograj Prabhakar

>

>

> , " varun_trvd "

> <varun_trvd@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Aadarneeya Yograj ji,

> >

> > My comments on what you have said in the same order :

> >

> > a) you have said that placing the almonds in the East

> > will `create a surya aur shani ka Takrav scenario' . This is not

> > true.

> >

> > The word Takarav is used as a defining astrological term only

when a

> > planet is placed in a 6-8 position known as shadashtak position.

> >

> > In the eventuality of keeping the almonds in the east it will, at

> > the most, be termed as Shani and Surya `mushtarqa' for which the

> > book says

> > " ravi shani dono ikaththe baithe, jhagara koi nahi karta ho " [

> > page 813, ed 52]

> >

> > Therefore keeping the almonds in the east aligned with the house

> > where the Shani had belonged to will be perfectly justified.

> >

> > b) You have further said that ` Saturn in the 5th house

> > becomes a bachche khane wala sanp'. Saturn per se by itself does

not

> > become a bachche khane wala sanp unless there is a mangal bud [

> > page 608 ,ed 52, footnote 1]

> >

> > The book goes further to say on page 608,ed 52 footnote 2 , `

aulad

> > ki tadad aur umra par to beshaq manda na hoga ….'

> >

> >

> > c) You have raised the question as to why the almonds ,

> > brought from the temple, be kept in the same place where the

Saturn

> > is placed in the Natal chart?

> > The answer is simple. Had Pt.Rupchand ji wanted to

shift

> > Saturn from the 5th any where else he could have suggested other

> > upaya like immersing in the river or burying, or establishing the

> > almonds in any of the house the almonds could possibly be moved [

> > Kulbir bhai has already pointed out this].

> >

> > He did not suggest shifting the Saturn because it might deprive

the

> > native of its benefic effects. At the same time Pandit ji wanted

to

> > make sure that the Saturn doesn't play any mischief either.

> >

> > Therefore Pandit ji chose to make the Saturn swear in the

presence

> > of God not to play mischief, " shanishchar ne burai na karne ki

ab

> > qasam khali gini jayegi " [page 611, ed 52 ]

> >

> > Which Saturn he makes to swear?

> > The Saturn placed in the 5th.

> > Therefore where should the Saturn go after it has sworn in the

> > presence of God?

> > The place it had originally belonged to.

> > And where did it belong to originally?

> > The 5th house.

> >

> > Then it is perfectly justified that the Saturn [almonds] brought

> > back from the temple after it has taken an oath to behave be

placed

> > where it had belonged. By shifting the Saturn anywhere else would

> > deprive the native of its benefic results if any. Incidentally

> > Saturn in the 5th house has been termed as `dharma devta' if the

> > 11th is unoccupied.

> >

> >

> >

> > d) Now coming to your point of venus coming into play if a

> > cloth is used. Venus + Saturn form exalted [ uchcha ] Ketu. An

> > exalted Ketu in the 5th house is always beneficial.

> >

> > e) Coming to your contention that by using an iron container or

> > an earthen pot to keep the almonds in you have said " I think

the

> > remedy of budh recommended for shni 5 is also somewhere present

in

> > this modus operandi " .

> >

> > What Pandit ji had recommended when he suggested that the budh ka

> > upaya madadgar hoga meant that the mercury a masnuyee component

of

> > the Saturn had to be set right; budh ko shubh kar liya jaye. It

is

> > this masnuyee component of the Saturn which is causing the

problem

> > in the 5th [Jupiter's pucca house]. By keeping the almonds in any

> > container resembling mercury you are bringing the Saturn back

into

> > the `dayara' of the mercury and hence strengthening the same

> > masnuyee component which has caused all the problem in the first

> > place.. Where as the instruction of Pandit ji in effect means to

> > liberate the Saturn from the clutches of the `dayara' of the

> > masnuyee mercury by either appeasing it or by making it a

benefic.

> >

> > Therefore the almonds [ Saturn ] after they have sworn in the

> > presence of God should under no circumstances be brought back

into

> > the fold of mercury again. Any such action will activate the

> > masnuyee component [ mercury ] and there will be no respite from

the

> > problem. The problem might get aggravated further.

> >

> > Please point out if I have left any point raised by you

unexplained.

> >

> > With regards,

> >

> > Varun Trivedi

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , " Yograj Prabhakar "

> > yr_prabhakar@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Varun jee and Kulbir jee

> > >

> > >

> > > The question of whether the Badam should be kept in Iron Dibba

or

> > Yellow

> > > cloth comes later, the main question here is why Saturn in 5th

> > house

> > > becomes a " Bachhey Khaney Wala Saanp? " In my opinion, since

the 5th

> > > house (Eastern Direction) belongs to Sun, presence of Shani in

5th

> > house

> > > somehow creates a Surya aur Shani ka Takraav scenario. This

very

> > Takraav

> > > creates problem for Shukkar (Suraj Shani ke Takraav se Shukkar

> > Maara

> > > Jayega). Ketu (Son) is Shukkar Ka Phal; by harming Ketu Shani

> > becomes a

> > > Bachhey Khaney Wala Saanp in this house. Moreover, since Shani

too

> > is a

> > > sufferer in the hands of Sun, he transfers the effects on to

Ketu

> > and

> > > Ketu indirectly becomes a Balee Ka Bakraa.

> > >

> > >

> > > Now the question of how to keep these blessed Badams, and what

can

> > be

> > > the best option since nothing specific in this regard has been

> > said in

> > > the Lal Kitab. We are all agreed that by binging back Badams

from a

> > > temple " changes " their nature, I mean by doing this we believe

> > that a

> > > divine blessing is present in the Badams or they becomes

blessed -

> > seems

> > > very logical. Now what is the rationale behind keeping them in

the

> > same

> > > place (Eastern direction i.e. direction of the 5th house)?

Shani

> > maharaj

> > > is aleady present there, so why one should " eastablish " it in

the

> > same

> > > place ehere is it considered as malefic, only because these are

> > believed

> > > to be blessed? If so, how these blessed can become unblessed on

> > other

> > > place? Actually, this aspect of directions is a new dimension

> > added to

> > > the whole case, so a honest and detailed discussion on this

matter

> > > should be done.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Regarding keeping it in Yellow or White cloth, aren't we

> > forgetting that

> > > Shukkar is also involved in cloths? What would be the

consequences

> > of

> > > involving Shukkar with Shani in the house of Sun (house no.5)?

We

> > must

> > > think about it.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > In my humble opinion, keeping these blessed Badams in an iron

Dibba

> > > (Shani Budh) or in the earthen pot (medium size kooja) in the

dark

> > > corner seems very logical. Secrecy and concealness is the

nature of

> > > Shani, by doing this we are not only proving this to Shani but

also

> > > disalllowing a snake to stroll around openly in our backyard.

We

> > are

> > > using Budh (empty space in the iron Dibba or earthen pot) to

give

> > refuge

> > > to this dangerous snake so that he can sit comfortably there

and

> > could

> > > not bite or scare the innocent kids playing around. I think the

> > remedy

> > > of Budh recommended for Shani 5 is also somewhere present in

this

> > modus

> > > operandi. I request the learned Gurujans to have a look at this

> > aspect

> > > too.

> > >

> > > Believe me, I have a solid reason of advocating this method,

> > because, I

> > > myself have kept the blessed Badams in an Iron Dibba in a dark

> > corner of

> > > my house for many many years, and none other than Great Pt. Rup

> > Chand

> > > Joshi jee recommended it way back in the year 1978.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Respectfully

> > >

> > > Yograj Prabhakar

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Affluent

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " varun_trvd "

> > > <varun_trvd@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Respected Sharma ji,

> > > >

> > > > In this group we take a very dispassionate view on topics and

> > try to

> > > > understand the logic behind them. We believe our small

> > cotribution

> > > > to the knowledge of Lal Kitab will go a long way to

understand

> > and

> > > > implement the concepts and the principles of Lal Kitab

> > > >

> > > > Our effort is to develop a scientific temper towards the Lal

> > Kitab

> > > > and to bring it out of the mysterious world of myths and

legends.

> > > >

> > > > It is so encouraging to find people like Lalkitabee ji and

Kulbir

> > > > bhai participating in the discussion.

> > > >

> > > > Soon the concept of scientific enquiry into Lal Kitab would

> > snowball

> > > > into some thing big and wonderful.

> > > >

> > > > With regards,

> > > >

> > > > Varun Trivedi

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , " Dharmender

Sharma "

> > > > dksrenu@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Kulbir Ji and Varun Ji,

> > > > > I believe that Lalkitab knowledge is a social asset for

all of

> > us

> > > > now. Remaining firm on this belief, it would be a right step

to

> > > > discuss this issue at length, including the logical approach

> > people

> > > > and MAD club scholars. More we are objective here and agree

upon

> > > > logical approach proved with the experiments and results,

more it

> > > > would help us to understand and practice lal kitab approach.

> > > > > So I would like to humbly request all scholars of Lal

Kitab to

> > > > share their thoughts on this.

> > > > > Sincerely,

> > > > > Dharmender Sharma

> > > > >

> > > > > -

> > > > > kulbir bains

> > > > >

> > > > > Sunday, September 30, 2007 11:07 PM

> > > > > Lal Kitab Discussion Group Re: Shani 5th & budh

ka

> > upaya

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Varun ji, these type of answers will go a long way in

> > > > dispellling the darkness of ignorance associated with

lalkitab

> > > > upayas. don't want to take names but i have myself seen some

> > people

> > > > who considers themselves ACHARYAs and URDU EXPERT GURUS

> > recommending

> > > > this iron box + darkness upaya.

> > > > > sahi mayno mein is group ki wajah se ab kahin jakar

lalkitab

> > par

> > > > asli kaam shuru hua hai. otherwise there are many MAD( mutual

> > > > admiration) clubs.

> > > > >

> > > > kulbir bains

> > > > >

> > > > > varun_trvd varun_trvd@ wrote:

> > > > > Respected Sharma ji,

> > > > >

> > > > > I am afraid keeping the almonds brought back from the

> > temple,

> > > > in an

> > > > > iron container in a dark corner is not the correct

> > procedure.

> > > > >

> > > > > The upaya is for the Saturn in the 5th house. Half of

the

> > > > almonds

> > > > > which are considered to have been blessed and which are

> > > > brought back

> > > > > from the temple also belong to the 5th house. Therefore

> > these

> > > > > almonds have to be kept in the east [ 5th house ]and

not

> > in a

> > > > dark

> > > > > corner of the house.

> > > > >

> > > > > These blessed almonds should be kept tied in a yellow

cloth

> > > > because

> > > > > the 5th house is a pucca ghar of the jupiter. These

almonds

> > > > can also

> > > > > be kept in a white silk cloth represnting Moon [sun +

> > Jupiter

> > > > form

> > > > > Moon]; sun is the owner of the 5th and the 5th is a

pucca

> > ghar

> > > > of

> > > > > jupiter.

> > > > >

> > > > > Keeping these almonds back into an iron container in a

dark

> > > > place

> > > > > would amount to unbless these almonds by handing them

over

> > to

> > > > the

> > > > > Saturn all over again.

> > > > >

> > > > > With Regards,

> > > > >

> > > > > Varun Trivedi

> > > > >

> > > > > , " Dharmender

> > > > Sharma "

> > > > > <dksrenu@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Respected Gurujans,

> > > > > > I am keen on knowing more about upayas related to

Saturn

> > > > malefic

> > > > > in the given situation. My humble question regarding

the

> > upaya

> > > > is -

> > > > > why half of the almonds carried back home needs to be

kept

> > in

> > > > a

> > > > > tight container and in a dark place? What planet iron

> > > > container

> > > > > represents and what aspect is covered by the dark

corner of

> > > > the

> > > > > house?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please enlighten me.

> > > > > > Regards

> > > > > > Dharmender Sharma

> > > > > >

> > > > > > -

> > > > > > varun_trvd

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Saturday, September 29, 2007 8:55 PM

> > > > > > Lal Kitab Discussion Group Re: Shani 5th &

budh

> > ka

> > > > upaya

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Respected Miglani ji,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have checked both the 1941 and 42 editions and

what you

> > > > have

> > > > > said

> > > > > > is right. You are also right for what is said in the

1952

> > > > book.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In my opinion the logic for the budh ka upaya

mentioned

> > in

> > > > both

> > > > > the

> > > > > > earlier editions could be this:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Saturn malefic consists of Mars + Mercury. The Mars

> > > > constituent

> > > > > of

> > > > > > this combination can not do any harm in the 5th house

> > which

> > > > is

> > > > > owned

> > > > > > by the Sun and Jupiter [associated as the pucca ghar

> > owner].

> > > > > Both

> > > > > > the Sun and the Jupiter are friends of Mars.

Therefore

> > the

> > > > only

> > > > > > possibility of any malefic out come of Saturn in the

5th

> > > > could

> > > > > be

> > > > > > due to the Mercury component of Saturn. That is why

> > Pandit

> > > > > Rupchand

> > > > > > ji advised the `budh ka upaya sahayak hoga'.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The 5th house may not apparently be associated with

> > mercury

> > > > as

> > > > > such

> > > > > > but in this case the upaya is suggested not because

of

> > the

> > > > house

> > > > > but

> > > > > > because of the constituent component of the planet.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regarding the second part of your query, in my

opinion

> > > > > Pt.Rupchand

> > > > > > ji did not drop the budh ka upaya instead he

suggested

> > some

> > > > > > alternative upaya also in his 1952 book. I believe

that

> > the

> > > > budh

> > > > > ka

> > > > > > upaya would still be very relevant because it is very

> > > > logically

> > > > > > devised. All the five Lal Kitab books form a

continuous

> > > > series

> > > > > and

> > > > > > should not be taken as five different books.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > However I would agree that Pt.Rupchand ji in his 1952

> > > > edition

> > > > > > devised the almonds upaya for the Saturn as a whole

> > instead

> > > > of

> > > > > for a

> > > > > > part of it. This new devised upaya could have been

based

> > on

> > > > the

> > > > > > feedback he might have received from his followers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I therefore feel that both the upaya can be done. If

you

> > > > feel

> > > > > that

> > > > > > there are any indications of only mercury being

malefic

> > in

> > > > that

> > > > > case

> > > > > > there is no harm if budh ka upaya alone is done.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With regards,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Varun Trivedi

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --- In

, " kpmiglani "

> > > > > > <kpmiglani@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sir,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For Saturn in the 5th house both the Gutka of 1941

and

> > the

> > > > > 1942 ed

> > > > > > > recommend ' budh ka upaya sahayak hoga'. There is

no

> > > > mention

> > > > > of

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > almonds upaya of offering at the temple and

bringing

> > back

> > > > half

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > them.

> > > > > > > In the 1952 book for the same shani in the 5th

there

> > is no

> > > > > mention

> > > > > > > of 'budh ka upaya' instead the almonds upaya is

> > mentioned,

> > > > not

> > > > > > once

> > > > > > > but three times. There are other upayas also

mentioned

> > but

> > > > not

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > budh ka upaya.

> > > > > > > What intrigues me is that the 5th house is in no

way

> > > > related

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > mercury and yet the upaya of mercury is suggested.

But

> > why

> > > > the

> > > > > > same

> > > > > > > upaya is not suggested in the 1952 edition and a

new

> > upaya

> > > > is

> > > > > > > devised.

> > > > > > > Does it mean that Joshi ji realised that the budh

ka

> > upaya

> > > > is

> > > > > not

> > > > > > as

> > > > > > > effective as he thought it to be and changed the

upaya

> > > > > altogether.

> > > > > > > Or is it true that Joshi ji understood the Lal

Kitab

> > > > system

> > > > > better

> > > > > > > during those intervening ten years?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Respectfully,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > KP Miglani

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Kulbir Bains

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

----

> > ----

> > > > -----------

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