11th House

[Guest guest]

Ciro Discepolo in his _Transits and Solar Returns_ after looking at many

thousands of charts over thirty years reports the 11th as the house of

death. He does go on and on.

 

Dark*Star

____________________________

[Guest guest]

At 08:39 PM 5/20/08 -0700, Dark*Star wrote:

>

>Ciro Discepolo in his _Transits and Solar Returns_ after looking at many

>thousands of charts over thirty years reports the 11th as the house of

>death. He does go on and on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

What house system does he use??

[Guest guest]

I doubt that in his curiously written and tightly packed 530 pgs. that

he would even consider giving us the answer to that question. But in

roughly plotting out a few of his100 maps it would appear Placidian.

Already on page 14 he tells us about the 8th house and jail. I also

doubt that sidereal appears anywhere either. The English translation is

colorful. I think it will reward my entire summer.

 

Dark*Star

_____________________________

 

Therese Hamilton wrote:

 

> At 08:39 PM 5/20/08 -0700, Dark*Star wrote:

> >

> >Ciro Discepolo in his _Transits and Solar Returns_ after looking at

> many

> >thousands of charts over thirty years reports the 11th as the house

> of

> >death. He does go on and on.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> What house system does he use??

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 01:05 AM 5/21/08 -0700, Dark*Star wrote:

 

> >Ciro Discepolo in his _Transits and Solar Returns_ after looking at

> many thousands of charts over thirty years reports the 11th as the house

> of death. He does go on and on.

>

> [Therese asked:] What house system does he use??

>

>[D*S replied:]

>I doubt that in his curiously written and tightly packed 530 pgs. that

>he would even consider giving us the answer to that question. But in

>roughly plotting out a few of his100 maps it would appear Placidian.

>Already on page 14 he tells us about the 8th house and jail. I also

>doubt that sidereal appears anywhere either. The English translation is

>colorful. I think it will reward my entire summer.

----------------------------

 

What is this?? Another astrological tome of many thousands of words built

upon a foundation of sand strictly for our entertainment during long, hot

(or cold) summers??? No house system mentioned?? No sidereal

perspective--meaning from the Fagan-Allen point of view he's using invalid

solar returns??

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hi Therese

The 11th house is called Labha Bhava. Labha literally means

profits/benefits/gains etc. So there is something to that. Since vedic

has always been based on strictly sidereal zodiac,there isn't any sign

overlap possibility in this explanation by this following author who

quotes traditional BPHS and other books.

 

I found this page talks a lot about these things including the

distinction between the wealth from 11th and 2nd houses.

http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Topics/11labha_bhava.htm#Gains

 

Unfortunately it doesn't talk about how individual planets do there.

 

But at another place on the same site, it talks about Sun in 11th

 

http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Topics/Surya_in_12_bhava.htm

 

Its interesting to note that you had mentioned about problems with one

child and this note ascribes it to the harsh Sun's aspect on 5th house.

 

She does refer to Mars in 11th house as Bull in China shop, which I

had alluded to earlier.

 

http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Topics/Mangala_mars_12_domains.htm

 

I have two close friends with two and three planets in libra in 11th.

They seem to do very well getting along. I with Mars aries there have

had problems in that department:)) Although I have learnt to do

slightly better over time. Growing up my sole goal in life was to go

live in a dorm. Studying itself at a Univ would have been a side

benefit or rationale for going there. The idea of living in a

community just excited me. It didn't happen for some reasons and for

years I was very depressed as that youth phase passed by and I

realized it probably will never come back,at least not in that fun

frat guy form.

 

 

BTW, maybe I ask for your birth data. Curious to know,

 

Best

Shiv

 

 

 

 

, Therese Hamilton

<eastwest wrote:

>

> At 03:34 PM 5/20/08 -0000, Shiv wrote:

> >

> >I had so far known the following explanation: 11th house reflects

> >material gains from the work/career/job etc. Vedically the explanation

> >being, that 11th is the second from the 10th.

>

> >But the idea of wealth/gains etc coming as undeserved/ not worked for

> >privilege would contradict that. Is there a way that both these views

> >can be assimilated?

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> Shiv, I had always understood that the 2nd reflected our own

earnings, and

> the 11th reflected benefits from others rather than what we earned

> ourselves. This is certainly true in my case where I worked for a few

> years, but then did a lot of mostly unpaid astrological work including

> counseling. Somehow I could never combine astrology with money. My kind

> husband paid our bills through regular employment. (Dispositor of my 7th

> lord in the 11th.)

>

> >...Also some people make distinctions based on astaka varga( AV)

score of

> >the house. So if the AV score of the 10th house is better than 11th, it

> >means that native can have a strong career but no comparable gains to

> >show for it. If on the other hand, 11th house is stronger than 10th it

> >could mean that even from a weaker career/job one could create more

> >wealth etc.

>

> It would be interesting to test this sometime with a number of

charts with

> known birth times.

>

> >As far as the other issue of 11th house and groups is concerned,here's

> >what I have read. 11th house is an Aquarius related house, vedically

> >ruled by Saturn and therefore a house of masses.

>

> No, this is a tropical misunderstanding based on a wrong (according to

> siderealists, nonexistent) zodiac. It's been noted that tropical

Aquarius

> is often the democrat, interested in equality. But that's sidereal

> Capricorn ruled by Saturn, the great leveler. So the 10th house, not

the 11th.

>

> Aquarius has the traits of tropical Pisces. So we have the inner

directed

> person who tends to be a loner. This is Uranus. Even Rob Hand has

mentioned

> in HOROSCOPE SYMBOLS that Uranus and tropical Aqurius have little in

> common. I think he called them 'a worst match,' but I can't find

that book

> right now.

>

> We can see from the small 11th house study that groups don't seem to be

> connected to the 11th--at least not in the Indian bhava system of

houses.

>

> I believe the tropical astrologers are correct here: The western side of

> the chart (houses 5 through 10 or Leo through Capricorn) has to do with

> emphasis on 'others,' and the left side of the chart (11-4 or Aquarius

> through Cancer) gives more freedom to be oneself. this is a very ancient

> division of the zodiac that I've discussed on my web site. Symbolically

> cultural and duties of society (solar half of the zodiac) opposed to the

> personal life (lunar half of the zodiac). This generally works out

via the

> houses which stand in for the signs. Using the signs alone won't be

> descriptive.

>

> Therese

>

[Guest guest]

Shiv wrote:

 

> I found this page talks a lot about these things including the

> distinction between the wealth from 11th and 2nd houses.

> http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Topics/11labha_bhava.htm#Gains

 

Sari:

 

Thanks for this links, I think I'll print all the house descriptions and get

more familiar with them. They look interesting.

 

Shiv wrote:

 

> She does refer to Mars in 11th house as Bull in China shop, which I

> had alluded to earlier.

 

Sari:

 

Yes, it may be something like that. I reconsidered what I said about the

11th house and groups yesterday because I have Mars, Rahu and Saturn in the

11th (Sripati) myself. Often when some of them goes activated in Vimsottari,

the action pertains to groups.

 

I follow my Vimsottari periods to the 4th sub-level (I think you can do that

only with Lahiri), and in fact on this week I find myself quite active here

on the Sidereal Astrology list for example, and I've been running first

Jupiter/Mercury/Ketu/Mars from Monday and now Jupiter/Mercury/Ketu/Rahu from

yesterday evening to next Thurday, and I've noted before that this is one of

my " groups " that gets activated when my 11th house activates.

 

My Jupiter/Saturn lasted from June 2005 to January 2008 and for that period

I was heavily involved with the Finnish Astrological Association, but after

the Mercury sub-period started in January, the activity on that direction

has ceased and I've been involved in these Mercurial statistical researches.

 

But are email lists actually in general more about groups (the 11th house)

than about writing (the 3rd house) then?

 

Thanks for the interesting research, Therese. I'll see if I have time to do

study regarding Sripati (or actually Porphyry) cusps. My ADB 3 seems to

behave a bit oddly in Vista operating system, now it has recalculated

aspects for a file an awfully long. Foreign countries is one meaning for the

12th house that seems to hold water quite clearly.

 

Best, Sari

[Guest guest]

At 02:38 PM 5/19/08 +0300, Sari wrote:

>So it seems that the 11th house is quite a 'mundane' or 'anti-spiritual'

>house, aimed mostly at gaining or securing your own profits...

 

Hi Sari,

 

I'm just beginning to catch up on this forum, so I'm replying to some

thoughts, but don't have time to reply to everything. Somewhere in one of

your posts, Sari, you mentioned that I didn't accept the concept of trinal

houses. (I might be remembering this wrong...) Anyway I do believe that the

trigons of houses are very important, but that we're still learning exactly

what these trinal houses mean.

 

I wouldn't call the 11th 'anti-spiritual,' (since I have my Sun and Moon

there, and have always had a spiritually dedicated life). What the 11th

does seem to represent is material comfort apart from the *desire* for

money. These are two different things. Desire is linked to the Moon and its

aspects. I could never accept money for astrological counseling, for

example, and one reason I closed down my correspondence course is that I

greatly disliked taking money from people.

 

But I have been blessed with a comfortable life in adulthood due to my

husband's income. I'd say a good 11th house relates to good karma from the

past where one has earned material comfort.

 

Now to reply to an idea that Shiv mentioned about the 2nd and 11th

house--having done some research on this, it does seem that the 11th not

only relates to favors from others, but also what one can earn by one's own

efforts. So this would remove 'self-earnings' from the 2nd and place such

earnings in the 11th. That is, one can easily earn profits and salary if

one has a good 11th house.

 

For comparison, I looked up what Morin (born 1583) had to say about the

2nd-7th-11th trigon of houses in CABAL OF THE TWELVE HOUSES ASTROLOGICAL:

 

Triplicity of the west angle, the tripicity of marriage or love

 

7th--conjunction of the body--matrimony

2nd--of the blood--brethren and kindred

11th--benevolence or favour (friends)

 

This is one kind of emphasis to look for, but wealth or comfort seems also

to belong to the 11th. Any kind of wealth comes directly from others, even

what is inherited.

 

>[sari wrote:] In general I've found in my studies that the Indian concept

of good and bad

>houses works quite well, and it tells more about spirituality than about

>material success. The 1st, 10th, 5th and 9th houses are fortunate because

>they produce spiritual attitude and interest.

 

I would disagree with this in that these houses produce interest or

attitude. I have charts in my files where criminals have Jupter in the 9th,

sometimes in its own sign. I believe the houses may produce

**circumstances** rather than innate psychological states. The houses would

show what we've earned from the past, but we are free in our hearts and

minds to develop present attitudes.

 

Attitudes are most likely linked to the Moon. If there are 'good' houses,

and they are well teneted by planets, than our past efforts are resulting

in benefits in this life. In that way, the 11th would reflect proper

attitudes about wealth from the past rather than a desire to 'get rich

quick' in this life.

 

So attitudes and houses--houses might reflect what we've brought over from

past lives in that a well teneted house means the right attitudes and

afflicted planets in a house means we have karmic debts to pay or lessons

to learn.

 

As astrologers, we still have a lot of sorting out to do separating houses

from planets. Tropical astrologers have placed psychological emphasis on

the houses. India's astrology and western astrology up to the 20th century

placed emphasis on events and circumstances rather than psychology.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Therese...

 

 

Where it says " 2nd " it should be " 3rd " .

 

It occured to me that the idea of friends being an 11th hs thing really

means benefactors. Close friends might be more Venus or 7th.

 

 

....Bettina

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Therese Hamilton

Saturday, May 24, 2008 8:56 AM

 

Re: 11th House

 

 

 

At 02:38 PM 5/19/08 +0300, Sari wrote:

>So it seems that the 11th house is quite a 'mundane' or 'anti-spiritual'

>house, aimed mostly at gaining or securing your own profits...

 

Hi Sari,

 

I'm just beginning to catch up on this forum, so I'm replying to some

thoughts, but don't have time to reply to everything. Somewhere in one of

your posts, Sari, you mentioned that I didn't accept the concept of trinal

houses. (I might be remembering this wrong...) Anyway I do believe that the

trigons of houses are very important, but that we're still learning exactly

what these trinal houses mean.

 

I wouldn't call the 11th 'anti-spiritual,' (since I have my Sun and Moon

there, and have always had a spiritually dedicated life). What the 11th

does seem to represent is material comfort apart from the *desire* for

money. These are two different things. Desire is linked to the Moon and its

aspects. I could never accept money for astrological counseling, for

example, and one reason I closed down my correspondence course is that I

greatly disliked taking money from people.

 

But I have been blessed with a comfortable life in adulthood due to my

husband's income. I'd say a good 11th house relates to good karma from the

past where one has earned material comfort.

 

Now to reply to an idea that Shiv mentioned about the 2nd and 11th

house--having done some research on this, it does seem that the 11th not

only relates to favors from others, but also what one can earn by one's own

efforts. So this would remove 'self-earnings' from the 2nd and place such

earnings in the 11th. That is, one can easily earn profits and salary if

one has a good 11th house.

 

For comparison, I looked up what Morin (born 1583) had to say about the

2nd-7th-11th trigon of houses in CABAL OF THE TWELVE HOUSES ASTROLOGICAL:

 

Triplicity of the west angle, the tripicity of marriage or love

 

7th--conjunction of the body--matrimony

2nd--of the blood--brethren and kindred

11th--benevolence or favour (friends)

 

This is one kind of emphasis to look for, but wealth or comfort seems also

to belong to the 11th. Any kind of wealth comes directly from others, even

what is inherited.

 

>[sari wrote:] In general I've found in my studies that the Indian concept

of good and bad

>houses works quite well, and it tells more about spirituality than about

>material success. The 1st, 10th, 5th and 9th houses are fortunate because

>they produce spiritual attitude and interest.

 

I would disagree with this in that these houses produce interest or

attitude. I have charts in my files where criminals have Jupter in the 9th,

sometimes in its own sign. I believe the houses may produce

**circumstances** rather than innate psychological states. The houses would

show what we've earned from the past, but we are free in our hearts and

minds to develop present attitudes.

 

Attitudes are most likely linked to the Moon. If there are 'good' houses,

and they are well teneted by planets, than our past efforts are resulting

in benefits in this life. In that way, the 11th would reflect proper

attitudes about wealth from the past rather than a desire to 'get rich

quick' in this life.

 

So attitudes and houses--houses might reflect what we've brought over from

past lives in that a well teneted house means the right attitudes and

afflicted planets in a house means we have karmic debts to pay or lessons

to learn.

 

As astrologers, we still have a lot of sorting out to do separating houses

from planets. Tropical astrologers have placed psychological emphasis on

the houses. India's astrology and western astrology up to the 20th century

placed emphasis on events and circumstances rather than psychology.

 

Therese

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 10:08 AM 5/24/08 -0700, Bettina wrote:

>Therese...

>

>

>Where it says " 2nd " it should be " 3rd " .

 

Yes...thanks, Bettina.

 

>It occured to me that the idea of friends being an 11th hs thing really

>means benefactors. Close friends might be more Venus or 7th.

 

I think some place them in the 4th also--have to think about this. Yes, the

7th makes sense too. But then maybe close friends come mainly under Venus

as those to whom we are attracted.

 

Where houses are concerned I feel as if we're in an archeological dig.

We're the lucky ones who have thousands of charts to study to try to zero

in on specific house meanings and the logic behind those meanings.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

At 02:40 PM 5/22/08 +0300, Sari wrote:

 

>... and I've noted before that this is one of

>my " groups " that gets activated when my 11th house activates.

 

Or, Sari, you are in 'public' mode during those times, and that's the 10th

where I have your planets. It all depends on how we interpret houses. From

the small reseraches I did, there was no evidence that the 11th is

connected to groups. However, the 10th has to do with our public contact

with others, our 'career' so to speak. I believe the 10th is the real

'Marketplace.' The link Shiv gave has a lot of good information, but the

author is wrong sometimes too, as in giving 'Marketplace' to the 11th.

(Wrong in my experience, that is.)

 

>[sari:] My Jupiter/Saturn lasted from June 2005 to January 2008 and for

that period

>I was heavily involved with the Finnish Astrological Association, but after

>the Mercury sub-period started in January, the activity on that direction

>has ceased and I've been involved in these Mercurial statistical researches.

 

Saturn is your lord of 8th (group activity), and 9th (astrology). Mercury,

4th lord--the home--working in seclusion, perhaps.

 

>But are email lists actually in general more about groups (the 11th house)

>than about writing (the 3rd house) then?

 

E-mail lists are about communicating with other world-wide. That sounds

like the 12th. Astrology is probably the 9th. I have Mercury in the 12th,

and 90 percent of my communication with astrolgoers is via the internet.

Before computers I exchanged many snail mail letters with astrologers from

other countries, and my initial astrological education was a London,

England school of astrology.

 

>Thanks for the interesting research, Therese. I'll see if I have time to do

>study regarding Sripati (or actually Porphyry) cusps...

 

Sari, when you set up your additional data bases, did you set each up with

a different house sysem, and then change to the sidereal zodiac

(re-calc??). I'm not quite sure how this works, and I want to set up

Porphyry and Placidus databases. Porphyry so I can calculate planetary

conjunctions to cusps.

 

With a new database, can I then apply another set of options (aspect orbs

etc.) that I've already set and re-calc the data?

 

It's probably a good idea to upgrade to V 4 because we may not ever see a

version 5 of ADB.

 

Thanks,

Therese

[Guest guest]

At 07:03 PM 5/21/08 -0000, Shiv wrote:

>

>I found this page talks a lot about these things including the

>distinction between the wealth from 11th and 2nd houses.

>http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Topics/11labha_bhava.htm#Gains

 

Hi Shiv,

 

That's a very attractive site and seems to have a lot of good information,

apparently from Das Goravani's astrological program. I didn't have time to

scan the entire site, but some of what I read seemed really good, some not

so good or open to question. She supplies her references, which is very

good. Anyhow, that site seems to be a good jumping off place for the basics

of Jyotish. Thanks for pointing out the site. It's very nicely designed,

and a lot of work went into the organization of data and checking references.

 

>But at another place on the same site, it talks about Sun in 11th

>

>http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Topics/Surya_in_12_bhava.htm

>

>Its interesting to note that you had mentioned about problems with one

>child and this note ascribes it to the harsh Sun's aspect on 5th house.

 

Yes, she seems to be quite accurate there.

 

>She does refer to Mars in 11th house as Bull in China shop, which I

>had alluded to earlier.

>http://www.barbarapijan.com/bpa/Topics/Mangala_mars_12_domains.htm

 

I have Mars in the 11th bhava, but I'm just the opposite. Artistic and very

careful with possessions and neatness, etc. Your Mars is just between two

bhavas, Shiv. I wouldn't give it too much emphasis in any house, but would

tend toward the 11th since Mars is in the 11th sign. If you see yourself as

'bull in a china shop,' it would be Mars opposing Sun-Uranus. Also Venus is

in a Mars ruled sign, and Venus' dispositor is Mars in Aries. That might be

the astrological pattern for the desire for a male friendship dormitory life.

 

>I have two close friends with two and three planets in libra in 11th.

>They seem to do very well getting along. I with Mars aries there have

>had problems in that department:))

 

Also Sun with Uranus, and Mars opposting both of them!

 

> Growing up my sole goal in life was to go

>live in a dorm. Studying itself at a Univ would have been a side

>benefit or rationale for going there. The idea of living in a

>community just excited me...

 

A sense of community and belonging...hmmmm. Venus is the type of

compnanionship we crave or enjoy. No...I don't think that desire is linked

to Mars just entering the 11th house. It would be the configuration

involving Venus.

 

*If* the 8th has to do with groups, in the navamsa you have Venus in the

8th with Ketu. That would be a sense of loss in that department.

 

>BTW, maybe I ask for your birth data. Curious to know,

 

I will send it to your e-mail address. Some bio information is on my web

site. Please don't discuss my chart on the forum, however, unless I mention

something--which I've done already in relation to children and the 11th house.

 

Blessings,

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Therese wrote:

 

Somewhere in one of

> your posts, Sari, you mentioned that I didn't accept the concept of trinal

> houses. (I might be remembering this wrong...) Anyway I do believe that

> the

> trigons of houses are very important, but that we're still learning

> exactly

> what these trinal houses mean.

 

Sari:

 

I think I probably got something wrong then, sorry. You've said that you

don't buy this Vedic concept of 1-5-9 as dharma houses, 2-6-10 as artha

houses etc. but I understood that to mean that you don't buy the whole

concept of the house trigons. Yes, we still have to find out what those

trigons really represent. I agree with you in that houses 4-8-12 are not

particularly about moksha. They're more negative. I see the 4th as a very

'earthy' house, having to do with land, real estate, countryside,

patriotism, roots, underground things etc.

 

Therese wrote:

 

> As astrologers, we still have a lot of sorting out to do separating houses

> from planets. Tropical astrologers have placed psychological emphasis on

> the houses. India's astrology and western astrology up to the 20th century

> placed emphasis on events and circumstances rather than psychology.

 

Sari:

 

This is something I've been thinking a lot lately. It really seems that

houses have a strong connection to actual circumstances, people in our lives

etc. The planets in houses describe the nature of those circumstances. But

on the deeper and more psychological level, some people might think that

those circumstances are but a reflection of what we are ourselves.

 

If you have Mars in the 7th house, you tend to encounter aggressive

partners, or you're drawn to aggressive partners; but is it so that the

solution would be to see the aggressiveness in yourself, that you project

your own aggression to your partners? Or the other option is that you just

keep encountering aggressive people and there's nothing you can do with it.

Or you can become conscious of that tendency, and choose intentionally to be

with more peaceful people though they don't excite you on the deep,

emotional, subconscious level as much as the Martian people that you've

naturally drawn to. Or when you get conscious of the Martian traits in

yourself, you cease to look for those qualities on other people.

 

What I'm trying to say is that we live in a modern world and psychological

thinking is deeply embedded in us. If I'm honest, I cannot help it that

astrology becomes really interesting for me only after there's this deeper,

motivational, psychological aspect in it. The problem with modern Western

astrology is that the fathers of that branch had such a big holes in their

knowledge of history and tradition of astrology - and we cannot accuse them

for that, because it was lost from everyone at that time. So they invented a

lot, and the result was not in sync with the deeper aspects and philosophy

of the long tradition. Defining the 12th house as the house of seclusion and

spirituality is a fitting example of that.

 

Therese wrote:

 

Or, Sari, you are in 'public' mode during those times, and that's the 10th

where I have your planets. It all depends on how we interpret houses. From

the small reseraches I did, there was no evidence that the 11th is connected

to groups.

 

Sari:

 

One strong evidence for those planets being in the 11th house (by the

Sripati system) is last spring, when I had secondary progressed MC, Venus,

Saturn and Rahu all in 23-25 Pisces on my natal true Rahu 25 Pisces and near

natal Saturn (19 Pisces) and Mars (27 Pisces) close to the 11th Porpyry cusp

(29 Pisces). On the day I was elected as the chair of the Finnish

Astrological Association, there was a transiting grand trine on the sky

consisting Jupiter, Saturn and Venus in 24-28 Water. On the day I resigned a

couple of months later, transiting Jupiter and Saturn were again trining

each other in 24 Water.

 

All the activity happened in the realm of groups and associations, it had

nothing to do with my workplace or professional career, which is completely

another area of activity, having a lot of importance but of a different kind

because my Sun in in the 10th house. There's many ways to be public, and

astrology is only a hobby for me (important one, of course, taking most of

my leisure time). Career is a different thing. For a lot of people who know

me in the " real life " my internet activites are all but public.

 

Therese wrote:

 

Sari, when you set up your additional data bases, did you set each up with a

different house sysem, and then change to the sidereal zodiac (re-calc??).

I'm not quite sure how this works, and I want to set up Porphyry and

Placidus databases. Porphyry so I can calculate planetary conjunctions to

cusps.

 

Sari:

 

Yes, that's the basic idea of adding new databases. It doesn't matter with

which houses you initially install the new database (except that it's better

not to install it as " Vedic " if you want to operate with Western aspects),

you can install it as " Placidus " or " Koch " or Equal " , because after

installing you nevertheless recalculate it with the houses, points, aspects,

zodiac etc. you like. The small inconvenience with ADB 3 (I don't know if it

exists with ADB 4) is that the name for the database will remain the same,

so you have to remember where you have your Porphyry database, if it's named

" Koch " , or " Placidus " or what else.

 

Best, Sari

[Guest guest]

At 09:59 AM 5/25/08 +0300, Sari wrote:

>(...)

>This is something I've been thinking a lot lately. It really seems that

>houses have a strong connection to actual circumstances, people in our lives

>etc. The planets in houses describe the nature of those circumstances. But

>on the deeper and more psychological level, some people might think that

>those circumstances are but a reflection of what we are ourselves.

>

>If you have Mars in the 7th house, you tend to encounter aggressive

>partners, or you're drawn to aggressive partners...

 

This could be one expression of Mars in 7th. But there may be other ways

Mars in the 7th can act. Bettina has a son with Mars in the 7th. He is a

career policeman in San Francisco. He will likely meet aggression in the

course of his work. It might be said he likes a challenge, but is not

necessarily aggressive himself. Each planet has so many different

expressions, that one would have to be psychic or a Seer to know the

underlying energy of each planet in a horoscope.

 

>What I'm trying to say is that we live in a modern world and psychological

>thinking is deeply embedded in us.

 

Yes, and psychology is probably 95 percent in the planets rather than the

houses. What bothers me is that most astrologers discuss psychology but

have no psychological training. So astrologers as a group are safer staying

with known facts rather than guessing at underlying psychology. This is why

the Gauquelins used words from published biographies in their studies. They

didn't hypothesize about why someone behaved the way they did. This is the

scientific way.

 

> The problem with modern Western astrology is that the fathers of that

branch had such a big holes in their knowledge of history and tradition of

astrology - and we cannot accuse them for that, because it was lost from

everyone at that time. So they invented a

>lot, and the result was not in sync with the deeper aspects and philosophy

>of the long tradition. Defining the 12th house as the house of seclusion and

>spirituality is a fitting example of that.

 

Yes, we're very fortunate to have the history, tools and databanks to use

in studies today. Even so, a large databank like ADB still leaves much to

be desired. Few biographies go into detail about a person's life. We should

really be following the Gauquelin's example and greatly expanding

biographical information from published sources. But it's all so much work,

and astrologers lack the patience for such detailed work.

 

>One strong evidence for [my] planets being in the 11th house (by the

>Sripati system) is last spring, when I had secondary progressed MC, Venus,

>Saturn and Rahu all in 23-25 Pisces on my natal true Rahu 25 Pisces and near

>natal Saturn (19 Pisces) and Mars (27 Pisces) close to the 11th Porpyry cusp

>(29 Pisces). On the day I was elected as the chair of the Finnish

>Astrological Association...

 

But that is status and recognition (10th) rather than shared group

activity. The 10th doesn't necessarily have to do with money earned. That

would be the 11th according to tradition. So now you are placing groups in

a house of wealth or earned income. To be truly an 11th house affair, there

should be money, gifts or wealth involved.

 

I wouldn't call astrology a hobby for you, Sari, because you work so hard

at it. It seems to be a labor of love, and you have international

readership for what you write. So we're perhaps seeing a difference between

10th and the 11th house interpretation.

 

I apologize for the brevity of this reply. It' s late, and I still have

work stacked to the ceiling with family coming this week for a visit.

 

Blessings,

Therese

[Guest guest]

This reminds me of another case...I have an aquaintance with Mars in 7th

whose husband is a firefighter. He's one of the nicest guys I've ever met

and from what I can tell, they have a very loving relationship...but

firefighting is a career that would take a lot of Mars. Unfortunately, I

don't have his horoscope, only hers.

 

 

....Bettina

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Therese Hamilton

Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:19 PM

 

Re: Re: 11th House

 

 

 

At 09:59 AM 5/25/08 +0300, Sari wrote:

>(...)

>This is something I've been thinking a lot lately. It really seems that

>houses have a strong connection to actual circumstances, people in our

lives

>etc. The planets in houses describe the nature of those circumstances. But

>on the deeper and more psychological level, some people might think that

>those circumstances are but a reflection of what we are ourselves.

>

>If you have Mars in the 7th house, you tend to encounter aggressive

>partners, or you're drawn to aggressive partners...

 

This could be one expression of Mars in 7th. But there may be other ways

Mars in the 7th can act. Bettina has a son with Mars in the 7th. He is a

career policeman in San Francisco. He will likely meet aggression in the

course of his work. It might be said he likes a challenge, but is not

necessarily aggressive himself. Each planet has so many different

expressions, that one would have to be psychic or a Seer to know the

underlying energy of each planet in a horoscope.

 

>What I'm trying to say is that we live in a modern world and psychological

>thinking is deeply embedded in us.

 

Yes, and psychology is probably 95 percent in the planets rather than the

houses. What bothers me is that most astrologers discuss psychology but

have no psychological training. So astrologers as a group are safer staying

with known facts rather than guessing at underlying psychology. This is why

the Gauquelins used words from published biographies in their studies. They

didn't hypothesize about why someone behaved the way they did. This is the

scientific way.

 

> The problem with modern Western astrology is that the fathers of that

branch had such a big holes in their knowledge of history and tradition of

astrology - and we cannot accuse them for that, because it was lost from

everyone at that time. So they invented a

>lot, and the result was not in sync with the deeper aspects and philosophy

>of the long tradition. Defining the 12th house as the house of seclusion

and

>spirituality is a fitting example of that.

 

Yes, we're very fortunate to have the history, tools and databanks to use

in studies today. Even so, a large databank like ADB still leaves much to

be desired. Few biographies go into detail about a person's life. We should

really be following the Gauquelin's example and greatly expanding

biographical information from published sources. But it's all so much work,

and astrologers lack the patience for such detailed work.

 

>One strong evidence for [my] planets being in the 11th house (by the

>Sripati system) is last spring, when I had secondary progressed MC, Venus,

>Saturn and Rahu all in 23-25 Pisces on my natal true Rahu 25 Pisces and

near

>natal Saturn (19 Pisces) and Mars (27 Pisces) close to the 11th Porpyry

cusp

>(29 Pisces). On the day I was elected as the chair of the Finnish

>Astrological Association...

 

But that is status and recognition (10th) rather than shared group

activity. The 10th doesn't necessarily have to do with money earned. That

would be the 11th according to tradition. So now you are placing groups in

a house of wealth or earned income. To be truly an 11th house affair, there

should be money, gifts or wealth involved.

 

I wouldn't call astrology a hobby for you, Sari, because you work so hard

at it. It seems to be a labor of love, and you have international

readership for what you write. So we're perhaps seeing a difference between

10th and the 11th house interpretation.

 

I apologize for the brevity of this reply. It' s late, and I still have

work stacked to the ceiling with family coming this week for a visit.

 

Blessings,

Therese

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Therese,

 

Fagan-Allen never said tropical returns were invalid. They just showed

the sidereal were more efficient. Marc Penfield the same, hence his

book, " Solar Returns in Your Face " pushing the precessed tropical which

included an introduction by a siderealist.

 

I work TZ & SZ everyday and the historical and seasonal Grand Old Zodiac

(TZ) shows up wonderfully well. Its returns are sometimes better than SZ

~ Like the TZ solars for the assassination of Mussolini and his mistress

Claretta Petacci on 4/28/45. BM: 7/29/1883 1:10:15 am UT Dovia, Italy.

CP: 2/28/1912 10:15 am CST Roma, in which you can see the bullets

killing those two in the angular Mars-Uranus hogging the angles. But

their sidereals are diffuse...just handmaidens (in this example) in the

consideration of the whole.

 

Summers are equally good for everything from turning the pages of comic

books with jammy fingers to parcing Kant. Your lovely Libra New Moon is

also deep dark Scorpio.

 

Sidereally & Tropically Yours,

 

Dark*Star

_____________________________

 

Therese Hamilton wrote:

 

> At 01:05 AM 5/21/08 -0700, Dark*Star wrote:

>

> > >Ciro Discepolo in his _Transits and Solar Returns_ after looking at

>

> > many thousands of charts over thirty years reports the 11th as the

> house

> > of death. He does go on and on.

> >

> > [Therese asked:] What house system does he use??

> >

> >[D*S replied:]

> >I doubt that in his curiously written and tightly packed 530 pgs.

> that

> >he would even consider giving us the answer to that question. But in

> >roughly plotting out a few of his100 maps it would appear Placidian.

> >Already on page 14 he tells us about the 8th house and jail. I also

> >doubt that sidereal appears anywhere either. The English translation

> is

> >colorful. I think it will reward my entire summer.

> ----------------------------

>

> What is this?? Another astrological tome of many thousands of words

> built

> upon a foundation of sand strictly for our entertainment during long,

> hot

> (or cold) summers??? No house system mentioned?? No sidereal

> perspective--meaning from the Fagan-Allen point of view he's using

> invalid

> solar returns??

>

> Therese

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 03:23 PM 5/27/08 -0700, Dark*Star wrote:

>

>Therese,

>

>Fagan-Allen never said tropical returns were invalid. They just showed

>the sidereal were more efficient...

 

 

Now that's a puzzle, Dark*Star, because Fagan believed there was **NO**

tropical zodiac. It was a mistake, a myth in his opinion

 

I don't believe Fagan would even have looked at a tropical return once he

discovered the sidereal zodiac. Show me one book or one article after his

sidereal discovery where he delineates a tropical solar return.

 

>Summers are equally good for everything from turning the pages of comic

>books with jammy fingers to parcing Kant...

 

(Sigh) yes, if you have all that time on your hands.

 

>Your lovely Libra New Moon is also deep dark Scorpio.

 

It's not lovely. It's practically a dead Moon. Sidereal Libra can be a

depressive sign because it's the sign where Saturn is exalted, and the Sun

is in it's fall. I agree with Fagan--there ain't no tropical zodiac for

astrologers.

 

The main reason that tropical Scorpio is called secretive and dark is that

all those tropical books were written when Pluto was squaring the Sun in

Scorpio in birth charts. So astrologers mistakingly took the results of

that configuration instead of realizing that they were seeing Pluto square

the Sun in the sign of Saturn's exaltation.

 

Sidereally yours (only),

Therese

[Guest guest]

Therese,

 

Saturn should sing a bit in Libra, don't you think? All my Libra stuff

is lithe and lovely. So if your Libra New Moon is dead, it's only

because you killed it. Astro-infanticide. " J'Acusse! " And you live atop

a holy mountain yet? There will be blood...

 

Fagan never does do this what you say, but there are places where he

trucks in tropical with a deprecating shrug while using it to advance

his sidereal argument and it is so human. Actually that's pretty much to

say without example and I do suffer from a novelistic mind, so let me

just have a look. It will take a bit of time.

 

He was a slippery old bird with a sidereal fixed insistence who was

changing his stuttering Gemini mind all the time. So to me his is the

perfect chart for teaching both zodiacs. If only his 8th house was

better his teachings would be more used now. I'm nicely placed in his

new solar. I look every year. We all should.

 

Consider this...

 

Tropical was thesis. Sidereal, anti-thesis...

And Synthesis comes now in this new Century only after the 3

conjunctions of Uranus-Neptune which was prefigured by their handsome

exact placement in the 10th of his 1992 SSR for Dublin. Do have a look.

 

Dark*Star

__

 

 

 

Therese Hamilton wrote:

 

> At 03:23 PM 5/27/08 -0700, Dark*Star wrote:

> >

> >Therese,

> >

> >Fagan-Allen never said tropical returns were invalid. They just

> showed

> >the sidereal were more efficient...

>

>

> Now that's a puzzle, Dark*Star, because Fagan believed there was

> **NO**

> tropical zodiac. It was a mistake, a myth in his opinion

>

> I don't believe Fagan would even have looked at a tropical return once

> he

> discovered the sidereal zodiac. Show me one book or one article after

> his

> sidereal discovery where he delineates a tropical solar return.

>

> >Summers are equally good for everything from turning the pages of

> comic

> >books with jammy fingers to parcing Kant...

>

> (Sigh) yes, if you have all that time on your hands.

>

> >Your lovely Libra New Moon is also deep dark Scorpio.

>

> It's not lovely. It's practically a dead Moon. Sidereal Libra can be a

>

> depressive sign because it's the sign where Saturn is exalted, and the

> Sun

> is in it's fall. I agree with Fagan--there ain't no tropical zodiac

> for

> astrologers.

>

> The main reason that tropical Scorpio is called secretive and dark is

> that

> all those tropical books were written when Pluto was squaring the Sun

> in

> Scorpio in birth charts. So astrologers mistakingly took the results

> of

> that configuration instead of realizing that they were seeing Pluto

> square

> the Sun in the sign of Saturn's exaltation.

>

> Sidereally yours (only),

> Therese

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 04:45 PM 5/28/08 -0700, you wrote:

>

>Therese,

>

>Saturn should sing a bit in Libra, don't you think? All my Libra stuff

>is lithe and lovely. So if your Libra New Moon is dead, it's only

>because you killed it. Astro-infanticide. " J'Acusse! " And you live atop

>a holy mountain yet? There will be blood...

------------------------

 

I mean I have a really bad memory, and tend to avoid socializing with my

fellow human beings. The Moon is said to rule memory, and it's a social

animal. Also the Moon rules desire (according to Jyotish), and I believe

that desire running wild is the downfall of most of us poor humans.

 

Therese