Guest guest Posted October 29, 2006 Report Share Posted October 29, 2006 My long message Dear Paulo, Post this message -- WITHOUT MY EMAIL ADDRESS -- to your group. Regards Rudolf ----------------------- To all participants in the test that was submitted to you by Paulo Mendes. There have been several questions and remarks about the matching test that was submitted to you via Paulo Mendes. Now, to remove the apparent misunderstandings, here will follow a few clarifications. The current small experiment was based on a test conducted in the early thirties of the last century in the Netherlands, by lawyer C.P.van Rossum, a person who was highly sympathetic towards astrology and astrologers. Highly sympathetic, but critical nonetheless. At the time there were quite a few professional astrologers in the Netherlands, and one of the best was Mr Leo Knegt. It was this man Knegt who took part in the test that was set up by this lawyer Van Rossem. To that end Van Rossem selected 10 (ten) persons, most of them males, whose character and lives were pretty unusual by any standard. Of these people he submitted only the birth data and gender to astrologer Leo Knegt. So Van Rossem expected from Knegt that he would describe in detail not only character but above all important circumstances in the life of every subject. This is what is known as a " blind test " . To make sure that every description was properly judged, Van Rossem not only checked the details himself, but it was also done by the horoscope owner him/herself or by a close relative, and a third party who knew the horoscope owner pretty well. Knegt passed the test with flying colours. Based solely on these BLIND data he perfectly described all ten persons as regards their most salient personality characteristics and circumstances in their lives. How well he did can be indicated by the following: Subject 6 was a female. Of this lady Knegt said amongst other correct facts: " The Part of Fortune in Cancer and in House 11 trine to Venus (lord of 10) sextile to Jupiter (lord of 6) and this one parallel indicates that she will succeed in the hotel business or in a job on a passengers ship, particularly since she has Venus in Pisces. " Comment by Van Rossem: " This is unbelievably correct! The only job this woman had found after many years of searching for a job, was the position of (female) purser on a passengers ship! " How correct can one be, isn't it? Knegt's overall performance was of a similar calibre. In other words: truly a master astrologer. In 1997 I wrote a long article about this experiment in Correlation, the Research Journal of the British Astrological Association. I showed my readers all the details of subjects 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. The others: 5, 7, 8, 9 and 10, I saved for a test submitted to my readers in the way now known to you. So I gave them the most salient details of those five descriptions, and asked them to match the birth data to these descriptions. In 1998 I published the results of this test in the same journal Correlation. Altogether 21 astrologers had responded. Two of them had zero hits, eleven had one correct, six had two correct, and two had three correct. All of them had agreed beforehand that it was a FAIR test, simply because the descriptions had come from a highly experienced astrologer. What was even more fair: this astrologer had derived his descriptions from birth data only, hence had not been given any clues, apart from gender. So the idea was: if this astrologer can do it, then in principle any astrologer should be able to match the descriptions to the birth data. It is important to realize that the descriptions had come from an astrologer and not from, say, psychological tests of the subjects. Because sometimes astrologers complain that descriptions based on psychological tests are not in line with astrological practice. Anyway, these results, and YOURS, are in agreement with what researchers into astrology have experienced up to this time. Over the years many matching tests have been performed, and see what the results were: So the question is: can astrologers match birth charts to owners? In astrology books they do it all the time with unfailing success. But in the 54 studies to date, which involved over 740 astrologers and 1400 birth charts, the average success rate was no better than chance. For these astrologers, many of them among the world's most prominent, astrology performed no better than tossing a coin. In a further 18 studies involving over 650 clients and 2100 readings, clients were unable to pick their own reading out of several, at least not when cues such as sign names or descriptions were absent. So you will see that " your " results do not deviate that much from what has been achieved so far. A salient point is that clients cannot pick their own descriptions out of several others. Why is this salient? One of you told Paulo that he should have come up with very elaborate descriptions, rather than the short ones he sent. But: our experience is that long and detailed descriptions do NOT lead to better results, on the contrary!!! Reason: the more details, the more one will be prone to confusion. Finally, I have had some comments which made me truly irritated since they were beside the point. One commentator even accused me of not knowing what I was talking about: according to him I did not know anything about astrology. Well, rest assured: I know a hell of a lot about astrology. Astrology had been my passion for over twenty years, the last five of which as a professional astrologer. I had many clients, who always went away satisfied with my readings. I also conducted many astrology classes and wrote two books about astrology, one as the sole author, and the other in collaboration with two others. I was one of the first to write computer programs for calculating horoscopes, i.e. natal charts as well as predictive systems, etc etc. So, do not accuse me again of not knowing anything about astrology! However, after I had begun to do computerized tests of so many astrological rules, I found out that these have little substance. So I gave up astrology after an odd twenty years or so. That astrology seems to work is not based on astrological rules, but rather on the competence of astrologers, as an astrologer like Leo Knegt had so aptly demonstrated. I deem it highly likely that this competence is based on " intuition " and not on written or unwritten astrological rules. Rules can be tested, and then appear to fail. Because if the rules are true, then any astrologer should come up with similar readings for the same chart. This is not the case as many tests have already proven. Worse: sometimes correct readings have been done on WRONG charts. If you want to know more about research into astrology, then consult my website: www.astrology-and-science.com Regards to all, and thanks for participating in this little test. Rudolf H.Smit The Netherlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Leo Knegt is a tropical astrologer, yes? I must agree on the statements regarding intuition and astrological accomplishment. ________________________________ paulo mendes wrote: > > > Dear Paulo, > > Post this message -- WITHOUT MY EMAIL ADDRESS -- to your group. > > Regards > Rudolf > ----------------------- > > To all participants in the test that was submitted to you by Paulo > Mendes. > > There have been several questions and remarks about the matching test > that was submitted to you via Paulo Mendes. Now, to remove the > apparent misunderstandings, here will follow a few clarifications. > > The current small experiment was based on a test conducted in the > early thirties of the last century in the Netherlands, by lawyer > C.P.van Rossum, a person who was highly sympathetic towards astrology > and astrologers. Highly sympathetic, but critical nonetheless. At the > time there were quite a few professional astrologers in the > Netherlands, and one of the best was Mr Leo Knegt. It was this man > Knegt who took part in the test that was set up by this lawyer Van > Rossem. > > To that end Van Rossem selected 10 (ten) persons, most of them males, > whose character and lives were pretty unusual by any standard. Of > these people he submitted only the birth data and gender to astrologer > Leo Knegt. So Van Rossem expected from Knegt that he would describe in > detail not only character but above all important circumstances in the > life of every subject. This is what is known as a " blind test " . > > To make sure that every description was properly judged, Van Rossem > not only checked the details himself, but it was also done by the > horoscope owner him/herself or by a close relative, and a third party > who knew the horoscope owner pretty well. > > Knegt passed the test with flying colours. > Based solely on these BLIND data he perfectly described all ten > persons as regards their most salient personality characteristics and > circumstances in their lives. How well he did can be indicated by the > following: > > Subject 6 was a female. Of this lady Knegt said amongst other correct > facts: > > " The Part of Fortune in Cancer and in House 11 trine to Venus (lord of > 10) sextile to Jupiter (lord of 6) and this one parallel indicates > that she will succeed in the hotel business or in a job on a > passengers ship, particularly since she has Venus in Pisces. " Comment > by Van Rossem: " This is unbelievably correct! The only job this woman > had found after many years of searching for a job, was the position of > (female) purser on a passengers ship! " > > How correct can one be, isn't it? > Knegt's overall performance was of a similar calibre. > In other words: truly a master astrologer. > > In 1997 I wrote a long article about this experiment in Correlation, > the Research Journal of the British Astrological Association. I showed > my readers all the details of subjects 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6. The others: > 5, 7, 8, 9 and 10, I saved for a test submitted to my readers in the > way now known to you. So I gave them the most salient details of those > five descriptions, and asked them to match the birth data to these > descriptions. > > In 1998 I published the results of this test in the same journal > Correlation. > Altogether 21 astrologers had responded. > Two of them had zero hits, > eleven had one correct, > six had two correct, > and two had three correct. > > All of them had agreed beforehand that it was a FAIR test, simply > because the descriptions had come from a highly experienced > astrologer. What was even more fair: this astrologer had derived his > descriptions from birth data only, hence had not been given any clues, > apart from gender. > So the idea was: if this astrologer can do it, then in principle any > astrologer should be able to match the descriptions to the birth data. > > It is important to realize that the descriptions had come from an > astrologer and not from, say, psychological tests of the subjects. > Because sometimes astrologers complain that descriptions based on > psychological tests are not in line with astrological practice. > > Anyway, these results, and YOURS, are in agreement with what > researchers into astrology have experienced up to this time. Over the > years many matching tests have been performed, and see what the > results were: > > So the question is: can astrologers match birth charts to owners? In > astrology books they do it all the time with unfailing success. But in > the 54 studies to date, which involved over 740 astrologers and 1400 > birth charts, the average success rate was no better than chance. For > these astrologers, many of them among the world's most prominent, > astrology performed no better than tossing a coin. In a further 18 > studies involving over 650 clients and 2100 readings, clients were > unable to pick their own reading out of several, at least not when > cues such as sign names or descriptions were absent. > > So you will see that " your " results do not deviate that much from what > has been achieved so far. > > A salient point is that clients cannot pick their own descriptions out > of several others. > Why is this salient? One of you told Paulo that he should have come up > with very elaborate descriptions, rather than the short ones he sent. > > But: our experience is that long and detailed descriptions do NOT lead > to better results, on the contrary!!! Reason: the more details, the > more one will be prone to confusion. > > Finally, I have had some comments which made me truly irritated since > they were beside the point. One commentator even accused me of not > knowing what I was talking about: according to him I did not know > anything about astrology. > > Well, rest assured: I know a hell of a lot about astrology. Astrology > had been my passion for over twenty years, the last five of which as a > professional astrologer. I had many clients, who always went away > satisfied with my readings. I also conducted many astrology classes > and wrote two books about astrology, one as the sole author, and the > other in collaboration with two others. I was one of the first to > write computer programs for calculating horoscopes, i.e. natal charts > as well as predictive systems, etc etc. So, do not accuse me again of > not knowing anything about astrology! > > However, after I had begun to do computerized tests of so many > astrological rules, I found out that these have little substance. So I > gave up astrology after an odd twenty years or so. > > That astrology seems to work is not based on astrological rules, but > rather on the competence of astrologers, as an astrologer like Leo > Knegt had so aptly demonstrated. > > I deem it highly likely that this competence is based on " intuition " > and not on written or unwritten astrological rules. Rules can be > tested, and then appear to fail. Because if the rules are true, then > any astrologer should come up with similar readings for the same > chart. This is not the case as many tests have already proven. > Worse: sometimes correct readings have been done on WRONG charts. > > If you want to know more about research into astrology, then consult > my website: > > www.astrology-and-science.com > > Regards to all, and thanks for participating in this little test. > > Rudolf H.Smit > The Netherlands > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2006 Report Share Posted October 30, 2006 Knegt had several psychic components, chief among which were the lights. Sun is rising. Moon in Cancer in the 7th. Leo Knegt December 26, 1882 8 am LMT Rotterdam Netherlands ....source : himself His 'Kunst van het Voorspellen " or Art of Prediction would be most interesting could we get our hands on it. It would be a dancing of pictures for the tropical right brain. For the sidereal left brain strapped to the rules of mathematic, statistics...there would be paucity. Dark*Star ________________________________ paulo mendes wrote: > > > > > a At the time there were quite a few professional astrologers in the > Netherlands, and one of the best was Mr Leo Knegt. It was this man > Knegt who took part in the test that was set up by this lawyer Van > Rossem. > > Knegt passed the test with flying colours. > Based solely on these BLIND data he perfectly described all ten > persons as regards their most salient personality characteristics and > circumstances in their lives. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2006 Report Share Posted October 31, 2006 Hi, No, United States. But I've always wanted to know more about the Dutch astrologers; like Joyce wanted to know Ibsen. Interesting and anticipated ~ the Moon-Saturns in Rudolf Smit, Geoffrey Dean, Suitbert Ertel and their colleagues. Do you know well the work of Portugal's esteemed poet and astrologer, Fernando Pessoa? Also born in Lisbon, your Jupiter-MC is opposite his Moon-MC...his Neptune-Pluto (1888) straddle your AC. I got it too, not from a poet but a forbear who was considerate enough to be born just at their conjunction over Aldebaron and could pass that all down to me by aspect. All the best, Dark*Star _________________________________ paulo mendes wrote: > Hi > > Rudolf asked if you are a Dutch astrologer? > > Paulo > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 " Planet-Planet " merely shows they aspect each other with out naming the relationship. Like Geoffrey D : This accomplished story teller has Moon-Saturn conjoined at the midheaven. But they're not telling the stories. ________________________________ paulo mendes wrote: > What do you mean by their Moon-Saturn? > > Paulo > - > Dark Star > > Tuesday, October 31, 2006 10:13 AM > Re: My long message > > Hi, > > No, United States. But I've always wanted to know more about the Dutch > > astrologers; like Joyce wanted to know Ibsen. Interesting and > anticipated ~ the Moon-Saturns in Rudolf Smit, Geoffrey Dean, Suitbert > > Ertel and their colleagues. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2006 Report Share Posted November 9, 2006 no he isnt an aries friend. astrologers invariably fail to deliver.Theyre only able to make opredictions in retrospect.Just like anybody else Paulo - ashutosh pandey Thursday, November 09, 2006 4:21 PM Re: My long message hey Paulo, check out u'r freinds history......... I bet he's an Aries 'n his girlfriend's left him.......... that's intuition, NOT astrology !!!! Yeh, even i bought (stole!) Linda Goodman when i was a pimply-faced geek of 16 'n flat-chested girlfriend left me for another !!!! ------ www.rudolfhsmit.nl/a-pass1.htm *Astrology my passion* *My life, my personal disaster* Rudolf H. Smit A slightly expanded version of an article due to appear (in German) in a German anthology. *Abstract* -- Rudolf Smit, founder of this website, describes how, as a teenager, he was an ardent amateur astronomer with many technical books on astronomy in his library. Nearly all of them stressed that astrology had no scientific validity, which led him to believe that astrology was nonsense. Later, in his first job, he argued with his boss about astrology, and was told that he should first study astrology before opening his mouth. So he read about his sun sign and was astonished to find how accurate it was. He then had his birth chart read, not once but twice, and in each case was astonished to find how well it fitted his character and circumstances. From then on astrology became his passion. He taught himself how to read charts for his friends (everything fitted perfectly), formed the first society of professional astrologers in the Netherlands (this was in 1977), and set up as a part-time professional astrologer (he soon had many clients and the future looked rosy). But one day he accidentally used the wrong chart for a client, who was nevertheless happy with the reading. Two years later it happened again. Very puzzling -- weren't horoscopes supposed to be unique? Later, with a computer, he spent several years testing the statements made in astrology books, especially statements about events, and found to his horror that almost all could not be confirmed. But he had many happy clients so why worry? Then in 1984 came the crunch. He became aware of the many ways in which clients could be convinced that astrology was true even if it wasn't. And all of them were used by him. Just being warm and caring would do the trick. Worse, any chart would do, hence also the wrong chart. So his happy world of astrology collapsed. He closed his practice and fell into a clinical depression that lasted three years. Without astrology his life had lost its meaning. Afterwards he regained his interest and became editor of the research journal *Correlation* for six years, trying to find out which statements of astrology were true. Then in 2000 he set up this website for those who wish to know more about scientific findings in astrology, but always remaining sympathetic to its beauty and appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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