Number of issues (Count of Children)

May 2, 2009

Last Updated on Friday, 01 May 2009 10:49

Written by Panditji, Pandit Arjun, Sreenadh OG

Friday, 01 May 2009 10:48 [Participants: Panditji, Pandit Arjun, Sreenadh OG] [Editor: Sreenadh OG] Admin Note: Any editor preparing such write-ups based on AIA Group conversations are requested to follow the below guidelines. The participants and editors name should be mentioned at the top of the documentThe

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avoided. Always give the original thread URL as a reference, in the beginning of the document. [Thread: /message/454] [This is a conversation record write-up prepared based on a thread happened in AIA . Please note that, many points from the original discussion might have been omitted here to make this readable] Panditji: I

wanted start a new discussion. How can we judge from a kundali how many

issues will be there. I have never gotten a good reading of this vexing

issue. There are things like – · Looking at influence on 5th house and 5th lord. · Male planet influence = Male issues, etc. Has anyone done a comprehensive study of this? P.S. It may be a moot point in this day and age when most middle class people have no more than two. Pandit Arjun: My understanding (open to correction or addition) is as follows: 1. All

odd signs are male signs and all even signs are female signs. So the

5th house is first seen whether it has a male or female sign. 2. Sun, Mars, Jupiter are reckoned as male giving planets. Moon, Venus, Mercury and Saturn are reckoned as female giving planets. 3. Taurus, Leo, Virgo and Scorpio signs in 5th house are considered giving less and delayed children. 4. The

number of children is obtained by finding out which planet is in 5th

house. For example sun in 5H gives one son. Moon in 5H gives one

daughter. Mars in 5H gives three sons. Mercury in 5H gives two

daughters. Jupiter in 5H can give up to 5 sons. Venus in 5H can give up

to 7 daughters. Saturn in 5H can give maximum number of 8 daughters. In

rare cases, Saturn in 5H also gives son if the 5th lord is a male

planet and is aspected by a male planet. 5. Rahu can cause miscarriages while Ketu can give premature (underdeveloped) babies. 6. To

arrive at the total number of children the sign of 5H, number of

planets in 5H, number of planets aspecting 5H and lastly number of

planets in conjunction with 5th lord are reckoned. 7. First child is seen from 5H, second child from 7H, third child from 9H etc. 8. Some

researchers have written books stating that 3rd house also denotes

children and have given how many children each planet in 3rd house gives. But I don't know the logic behind this and hence not mentioning them. 9. D-7 or Saptamsa is also seen for calculating the number of children. 10. Lastly,

in my experience all the above are to be seen in the mother's chart for

it is the mother who gives children and not the father. This is based

on various reasons. Also in bigamy and polygamy a man begets children

from several wives and in those cases also each mother's chart is seen

for the number of children and their gender. Panditji: Thanks. I am not too sure about # 7 and #9. #7: 1st child from 5, second from 9 etc will put 4th from 11 and 1st from lagna. There is something not quite add up. I

do agree with 9th lord dasha for women or lagna lord dasha, As lagna

lord is capable of giving results of any house and so too the 9th lord. #9:

I have no idea how one can use Saptamsa, except for looking for

strengths of the said karaka or 5th lord in rashi in Saptamsa. Thanks for your views. Sreenadh: There

are many methods, but most of them does not seems to give the correct

result, may be also due to the influence of will, because we can stop

pregnancy at any time. But still I will try to state some of the

popular methods that are in use. Number of children 1) Count

the navamsa of the 5th lord. Avoid the signs owned by malefic planets,

and the signs in which malefics are placed. The remaining number will

give the number of children. 2) The same method as told above taking the Ju instead of 5th lord. 3) The total number of bebefic planets that aspects (Drishti) the 5th house + the total number of benefic planets that is placed in the 5th

house can give the total number of children. But if the planet is in

own house you need to multiply the number by two and if it is in

exaltation you need to multiply the number by three. [This method is

very difficult to apply properly, due to many special rules connected

with]. But as arjun ji pointed out, the planets placed in 5th and

aspecting 5th has much importance in determining the number of children. 4) The number of planets placed between 5th house (=sign) and 5th lord can indicate the number of children. But

in general, in total astrology, there does not seems to be any

systematic and generally applied to calculate numbers, amounts,

percentage etc, that gives correct results. Male/Female determination We have to depend on Male/Female classification of signs and planets. Panditji: When

you say navamsa of 5th lord, meaning the number of signs traversed by

5th lord from the rashi position? i.e. If 5th lord is in cancer and in

dhanu navansha, it has traversed 6 placed. When

you say if the planet is in own sign multiply the number by 2, if in

exaltation multiply by 3. Do you mean multiply the number contributed

by itself by 2 or 3. That is any planet can at most give 3 issues if in

5th house or aspecting the 5th house. If an exalted natural malefic is

in 5th house he does not contribute to the total, is this what you mean. Sreenadh: Quote When you say navamsa of 5th lord, meaning the number of signs traversed by 5th lord from the rashi position? i.e. If 5th lord is in cancer and in Sagittarius navamsa, it has traversed 6 placed. Unquote Yes.

But well, I would clarify. Think that for Ta Lagna the 5th lord Me is

in Aq, and the Me Navamsa is in Cp. Since Aq is a Sthira (fixed) sign

Navamsa counting starts from 9th sign Li, which means that Me is in the

4th Navamsa. So the navamsa that should be considered are total 4 in

number - Li, Sc, Sg and Cp. Out of this Sc and Cp are owned by malefics

and should be discarded. The remaining are Li and Sg navamsas which

indicates 2 male children.(We need to see Li and Sg, if any malefics

are placed in those signs that also discarded) I

think this method is pretty simple and clear. This is the normal using

style of this method. (If you want to use this method this much is the

authentic portion. What is given below is part of some traditional

advice. But there is some thing special as well. Which can make it

complex. Normally it is discarded. It is given below.) The

problem with this method is - The ancients (don't know the exact ref)

give a single rule for counting of Navamsa. Apart from the two ancient

methods - 1) Normal number of Navamsa (If planet in 9th degree it is in 3rd Navamsa etc) - Well agreed and standard method 2) Always starting from Aries They give the following possibilities also for counting - They say - "Sweche va, swaketre va, swa skane va, swa neecha va", meaning this counting of Navamsa can be - 1) From its sign of exaltation 2) From its own sign 3) From the sign in which the planet is placed. 4) From its sign of debilitation. If the standard method fails or seems to fail we are advised to follow this, as per the situation and intuition. Quote When

you say if the planet is in own sign multiply the number by 2, if in

exaltation multiply by 3. Do you mean multiply the number contributed

by itself by 2 or 3. That is any planet can at most give 3 issues if in

5th house or aspecting the 5th house. Unquote Yes.

An exalted planet aspecting 3 can give a maximum of 3 issues - it is

the normal meaning. But the other meaning is also present there. In

some situations, we may have to multiply the total number of children

we calculated with 2 or 3, depending on own house placement or

exaltation of planets. Quote If an exalted natural malefic is in 5th house he does not contribute to the total, is this what you mean. Unquote Yes.

But this benefic malefic classification is a problem. Think of the

situation when Su is in Leo (its own house) for Aries Lagna can we say

that no children would be born? But the exalted Ma in 5th sign Cp for

Virgo Lagna it is true. The exalted Ma in 5th sign Cp for Virgo Lagna

will cause untimely death of child (since it is 8th lord as well), but

it can give issues as well (Ma is consider karaka for son by some!).

What would be your opinion about exalted Sa placed in 5th for Ge Lagna?

That Sa neither will contribute to the total nor will cause death of

child even though it is 8th lord. Thus it goes - Too many special rules. Panditji: Thanks. In your example of navamsa, you said 2 male children (Li and Sg) is it because Li and Sg are odd and hence male signs? Secondly,

for fixed sign the counting starts from 9th (Is it because of Badhaka

sign for fixed rashi is 9th from it? What the logic behind this

counting?) What about counting for Char (movable) and dwiswabhav (mixed) rashis? Where does the counting begin? Sreenadh: Quote In your example of navamsa, you said 2 male children (Li and Sg) is it because Li and Sg are odd and hence male signs? Unquote Yes. Quote Secondly,

for fixed sign the counting starts from 9th (Is it because of Badhaka

sign for fixed rashi is 9th from it? What the logic behind this

counting?) Unquote No

- it is not connected to the Badhaka concept. Navamsa counting

technique is a simplified version of Rx9 mathematics that is

fundamental to Navamsa. I will explain. For

Aries how many Navamsas are there – 9, right? For Aries Navamsa count

starts from Aries and ends in Sg. So where should the counting of

Navamsa for Taurus should start? From the next sign Cp right? This Cp

is the 9th from Taurus. That is just co-incidence. So for Taurus the

counting starts from Cp and ends in Virgo, since only 9 amsas are there. The

next sign is Ge. For Gemini from where the counting should start? The

sign next to Virgo - right? So for Ge the counting starts from Libra.

Now Libra is the 5th from Gemini that is just co-incidence. So the

actual concept behind is: Navamsa is the 9th Parivritti (harmonic) of Rasi. If

anyone what to find in which sign navamsa falls he can simply use the

formula R x9 as well. For example, If Mo is in 7th degree of Aries,

then, 7 deg x 9 = 63 deg. Every body knows that a sign is

30 deg and there fore 63 deg should fall in Gemini. Or in other words 7

deg Aries is the 3rd Navamsa and it, ranges from 6 deg 40 min to 10 deg

00 min in Aries, and is allotted to Gemini for navamsa rulership. This

kind of mixing of the characteristics of the signs is the fundamental

concept behind astrology. That is why Parasara said about Hora - "Parivritti dwayam tesham meshadou kremaso vadet" Hora is the second harmonic of Rasi (R x 2) And about Drekkana - "Parivritti treyam tesham meshadou kremaso vadet" Drekkana is the third harmonic of Rasi (R x 3). Yes,

this kind of mixing of the characteristics of Rasis is the concept

behind Dwadasa varga system. And Navamsa is the 9th Varga. Panditji: Thanks. Yes, Navamsa in each sign starts - · Same sign for chara (movable) · 9th from the sign in sthir (fixed) and · 5th from the sign in dwiswabaha (mixed) Is this kind of counting done anywhere where the use of the navamsas traversed is mentioned in the classics? This

technique like you said is not foolproof, and will not work if one had

more than 7-8 kids. As number of navamsas traversed will be 12 max and

then when one takes out malefic signs and malefic planets out of it, it

would be tough to get more than a few kids. P.S. Lets do the same exercise for number of siblings. Sreenadh: Any amsa (division) should be a continuous counting from Aries. As you can see in the case of Navamsa it is clear. Quote Is this kind of counting done anywhere where the use of the navamsas traversed is mentioned in the classics? Unquote You

mean the counting mentioning Chara-sthira-dwiswabhava

(movable-fixed-mixed) variation. I think there is probably a sloka in

Prasnamarga. (Have to check). The counting is just a technique to get

Navamsa position in an easy method and it is not necessary that Rishi

Horas should mention them, even after stating that is 1/9th of a sign

(Navamsa). We can see plenty of places where navamsa is used in Rishi

Horas. I will give some examples in some other mail, quoting those

slokas. Quote P.S. Lets do the same exercise for number of siblings. Quote Not

much difference - It is the same method used to find the number of

children. One just needs to change the significator, house etc - that

is all. Pandit Arjun: The

way you explain rules in simple and easily understandable way makes you

an ideal teacher. If and when you decide to teach astrology, I would be

your first student. Could

you please advice - Is there any way to figure out the total number of

children for a 'man' from one wife or two wives or how many children

from each wife. For

example, one person has two wives. He begets three children from 1st

wife and two children from the second wife. Does his chart suggest that

he would be having a total of five children along with the genders of

the children? What if a person like Osama-Bin-Laden having a dozen

wives and several dozens of children. Does that big figure fit in the

formulae mentioned by you? [Editor:

The thread abruptly ended there – the question of Pandit Arjun ji never

got answered. Actually as a knowledgeable individual he must be knowing

that, there is no such short cuts available – especially when there is

difference of opinion about from where the 2nd wife should be looked into – from 11th or 2nd. Also how to know a male has how many children from his each wife – except by looking at his wives horoscopes? I wonder] - 0 -

May 4, 2009

Respected Sreenadh ji,

An excellent write-up.But I am sorry to write that we are forgetting the role of free-will. I always say to my students that though we are not "Parmaatama" but we are "Aatma" The part of Parmaatma. He is all powerful and has full knowledge.we are not all power full and have partial knowledge. We are not zero.As our knowledge will increase we will have control over the Nature. The law of Nature are fixed, not flexible. But we can change the course of the law of nature. The law of nature is that the water flow downward.We can make our water tank full on the roof by use of motor. The science is to know the law of nature in systematic way and applible them for the benefit of humane being. At present we know how the issue is formed in the uterus. We are producing the same in test tube. We are able to control the number of issue and enjoy the sex also. The illiterate one has little knowledge of the cause of issues and has maximum number of issues.The

literate has only one or two children as they will. So the number of children has become obsolete. The present question is why the native is not having child in spite of all knowledgeat at his command?