Fw: Calender reform, to Bhaskarji

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaskarji,

I am sorry, I did not reply to your following quory in time.Although mythologically the pole star is fixed and also practically for a lifetime or two, it has been found that in 2150 years, the pole shift is one whole month.Our uttrayan celebration has also to be shifted by one whole month. About 4800 years ago, the pole star was that which we call now as Alpha draconis.Now the new pole star is known as polaris. Due to this change, our celebration of maagha snaana also has to be shifted one month. Thus it is necessary to shift all our festivals by one month.This is what is discussed about calender reform.Then our religious festivals would bear fruit. Now our festivals have lost their religius merit due to the wrong timings we are celebrating them in.

So I would like to know if you would like to pursue the details about this matter about reform of hindu calendar to set our festivals right.This will also increase the accuracy of our jyotish shastra.Now it is too incorrect due to the change of 24 days from the actual mesh sankranti day.Thanking you,I remain,

Sincerely yours,

Hari Malal

 

 

----- Forwarded Message ----Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:28:04 AM Re: Calender reform

 

Respected Sirs,What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time ofVedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ?If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same infuture too ?regards,Bhaskar.ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla<harimalla@. ..> wrote:>> Dear Goelji,> I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu forthe interest.> Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical..This istrue so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.TheVikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has nowgone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only

itwill be acceptable.We must understand what is our originalrequirement. Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toetherin dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa suklapakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement ofour calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all thesefactors no more meet simultaneously. Thus the need to reform it to itsoriginal status.> From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate fourthings,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the polestar(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaanakshyatra). Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun,the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why notleave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This iswhere it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the

sametime.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish intact.> These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call itvishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras) .> Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,wehave to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religionbecomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar monthsone month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir andothers.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayanpoints.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttraashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya frommaagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift boththe solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis andnakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harmingour

society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going onincreasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be thebest type of people in the world.> So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thankyou,> sincerely yours,> Hari malla>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __> Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@. ..> Hari Malla harimalla@.. .> Cc: astrologyandremedie s ; ancient indian astrologyancient_indian_ astrology> Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM> Re: Calender

reform>>> Dear Friend,> Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah andother> equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical basedcalender and> suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , meanlongitude of star citra(spica 16) was> 180 deg 3sec.> This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religiousrequirements of any group or sect in India.> Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in aarbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose> as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating ata mean rate of 50".3 per year.> Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed.> I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram SambatCalender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomicaldata madeavailable by

Positional Astronomical centre.> No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an'INDIAN PANCHANG'.> One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement.> All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropicalco-ordinates.> As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are alsoavailable.> Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about.> Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is freeto do so.>> A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that weare now using most modern> data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We nowfollow geocentric> coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic.> The real break through will come when we will able to understand theeffect of Helio- centric> co-ordinates.>

Regards,> G.K.GOEL> Ph: 09350311433> Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR> NEW DELHI-110 076> INDIA>>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __> Hari Malla harimalla@.. .> Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@. ..> Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM> Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi>>> Dear Goelji,> I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal andtropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There arecertain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It isbsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas arecelebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.Ifthis original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas isviolated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makesit necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be

shifted from time totime,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done byBarahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for thismerging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that thelunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thankingyou ,I remain,> sincerely yours,> Hari Malla>>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----> "harimalla@. .." harimalla@.. .> HinduCalendar> Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:15:13 AM> [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi>>>>>>> Dear Prashanta Pandeyji,> I think we have come to some serious decision making

point.Upon thispoint hinges the whole success and failure of our calendar reformproposal.plese check the version of vedanga jyotish; it says,> When the sun is dhanistha, the uttrayan, the month of maagha and thesukla pakshya of tapa start together..> You will see that the date of tapa sukla pratipada means that tapa isa lunar tropical month.Month of Maagha also means it is a lunar month,with the full moon tied with maghaa nakshyatra.This is sideral. Thus thelunar month defined here is both sidereal and tropical at the same time.> This is also the reason why we have to compromise between sidereal andtropical sytem.Lunar months are tropical and sideral both at the sametime. That is the reson why I propose 6 degrees ayanamsa to be stillthere but niryan sankranti is to be brought near the tropical sankrantifor coordination of the two.You also know that our festivals arecelebrated by

tithis.Thus we have to understand the behaviour of ourtithi and its month to solve our problem of calender reform. Thus thereis no escape but to compromise both tropical and sideral..> This was the intention of the story of Brahma and vishnu quarrelingwith each other for a lo;ng time till finally they were coordinated byShivaji..Shivaji also said that vishnu is to be worshipped and notbrahma.This means we have to celebrate our festivals by nirayan sakrantiand not by sayan sankranti.But they must be witin the range of the samefull moon so Shiva can coordinate them.This coordiantion you have calledas compromise.I say it should be done, as it is our practice in thepast.thank you,> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla>> HinduCalendar, "Prashant Pandey" <praspandey wrote:> >> > Dear Hari Mallaji,> >> > Sir in my view

you are wrong in making your views but i respect yourefforts.> >> > Tapa, Tapasya can't be lunar.> >> > Regs,> > Prashant Pandey> >> > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@>wrote:> > >> > > Dear Kaul saheb,> > > I?have checked it in vedanga jyotish and it?is the sixth sloka andit says the month of maagha and the sukla padkshya of tapa.Thus thesetwo refer to the same lunar month, tapa used for the pakshya and maaghaused for the name of the month.I understand tapa as old lunar monthdenoting season, here tapa is used for pakshya andthus it can never besoalr month.maagha also can never be solar because the full moon lislinked to magghaa nskshyatra.Only lunar month have full moons.Thus bothtapa and maaagha are lunar.So tapa has been ussed for lunar seasonalmonth or pakshya and

maagha for the newly formed sidereal lunar month.Thus one is seasonal and the other is sidereal.Not one as solar and theother as lunar.> > > Uttaryan? with sun at dhanishta is unmistakable, ?I agree.Sinceonly the lunar month and date?was there, the intention to fix the lunaruttarayn date is also indicated, when it is said that at the same time?magha month and tapa?sukla partipada (meanig maagha sukla pratipada)occurs.> > > Madhuschai Madhavaschai vasantikav ritu, means lunar vasanta.Thosedays since only lunar months were there, one need not say lunar orsolar.That was the only type of month althoough the year was alwayssolar marked by teh solstice only.Solar year and lunar months are thenatural things in nature being true natural cycles.?That is, in my view,why they had the adhimas system right from the beginning of the vedicculture, to?match the lunar months?with the solar

year.Solar months wereconveniently made? at 30 degrees each, later on, to approximate thelunar months, with the help of the rashis.They were not in thebeginning.> > > The vedic months could never be islamic- like because they alwayshad adhimases right from the beginning..They also had 19 or 38 or 95 yearcycles to control it further, the left overs.Thus we should never thinkof having islamic type of?months.They had lunar seasons and lunar ayansand lunar years.Moslems do not have lunar seasons and ayans.?> > > More in my next mail. thanking you,> > > Sincerelyyours,> > > Hari Malla> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>> > > hinducalendar> > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:06:21

AM> > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > HinduCalendar, "Avtar Krishen Kaul"<jyotirved@> wrote:> > >> > > Shri Hari Malla ji,Namaskar!> > > < To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read thateven shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote forsolar monthsa and only guessed there may have been solar months, withthe same names as the lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have samenames for two different things. >> > > There is a mantra in the Vedanga Jyotisha, perhaps 5th mantra,which states that when the sun and the moon conjoin in Danishtha, it isUttarayana, Tapah and Magha and a new five year yuga starts. Dikshit hastranslated Tapah as season, but that would mean that there

would betwelve seasons instead of six seasons in a year. If Tapah is also takenas the name of the lunar month instead of the solar month, then Maghawill have to be taken as a solar month, since Punarukti in the samemantra is repugnant to the Vedic ethos..That means that Tapah is thesolar month of Shishira Ritu---and not of Greeshma ritu, as somemuladhara-walas would like us to believe!> > > If u try to ascertain the longitudes of stars and also the tithietc. for January 1, 1400 BCE fropm Vasishtha and Mahesh/ganesh programs,u will find that as on January 1, 1400 BCE, the New Moon was reallyconjunct Dhanishtha star, it was also away by 270 degrees from the meanequator and equinox of that date! That means it was really Utarayana aswell as a New Moon in Dhanishtha on that date!Similarly, there is amantra, perhaps seventh, in the same Vedanga Jyotisha which states thatfrom the day of

Udagayana, days start increasing by ...prasthas. Thatcertainly means that by Udagayana, the VJ meant nothning but Uttarayana,since it is only from that day that the day starts increasin as comparedto nights, Winter Solstice being the shortest day of the year.> > > We also find references in the Yajurveda stating "madhuschaimadhavashchai vasantikav ritu.." etc. U will find a lot of material in1999b.doc regarding the Vedic months being aligned to seasons.> > >> > > <The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that manyreference are available about lunar months and the word maasa can meanboth moon and the month.>> > > Vedanga Jyotisha is of an era of at least 1400 BCE. It is not anexact astronomical work at all! The duration of a solar year as per thatwork is 366 days, which is neither sidereal nor tropical! Themothodology of calculating tithi etc. in

that work is meant forcalculating mean tithis and nakshatras and not the true ones! The endingmoments of nakshatras and tithis etc. as per that work are thus notaccurate at all! However, they serve as a milepost for futureguidelines, and those guidelines are that the Vedic calendar wasseasonal, months were solar to start with and lunar synodic months werepegged to the same.If we eliminate solar ingress of Madhu, Madhava etc.and take both Madhu, Madhava as well as Chaitra, Vaishakha as lunarsynodic months, we will be left with something like an Islamic calendar!> > > We cannot ignore the two solstices and equinoxes at any cost! Theyhave to be given some names! That is why the Vj states that theUdagayana, the month of Tapah and Magha start simultaneously! There isevery possibility that the ancient astronomers of India were not thatadept in calculating the timings of exact phenomena of Uttarayana

andDakshinayana or Vasanta and Hemanta Sampat! They could be plus/minus oneday or may be even more from the actual timings of such phenomena!> > > I find references in the Puranas that it is difficult even foryogis to determine the exact timings of ayanas and vishuvas. (Pl. see1999b..doc, rashi5.doc, BVB6.doc etc). It is a fact that on the day ofUttarayana the sun is "stationary" for a nano-second before startingcoming down from the maximum Southern declination! Same is the case withother ayana and sampat! The exact moments of those phenomena are fornano-seconds! It may be easy to find the exact timings of thosephenomena with Xtreme Intel processors on the basis of data fromNASA/JPL these days, but for Acharya Lagadha of at least fifteenthcentury BCE, that was a really difficult job!> > > We have, therefore, to see the spirit instead of the letter ofsuch works and streamline our

calendar in accordance with that spirit!> > >> > > <WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This isproved by vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at thesolistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control thelunar months.>> > > I am unable to get the drift of your statement! There cannot be anadhi or kshyaya lunar masa unless and until they are compared tosomething and that something is solar months! There can be a thirteenthsynodic lunar month as adhimasa in a year when there is a yardstick ofregular twelve months in that very year! And that yardstick is twelvesolar months of a seasonal year! Besides, it is not necessary that anadhimasa will fall always on the day of Uttarayana! That just is next toimpossible!> > >> > > <It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipadaand the

sun being at the beginning of dhanistha>> > > The year at the time of Vedanga Jyotisha started with Uttarayana.And as already clarified, Acharya Lagadha had somehow determined aparticular year when the Udagayana coincided with Magha Shukla Paksha.These days it is also a similar situation more or less---real MaghaShukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon after Uttarayana, which isalso known as the month of Tapah. However, because of precession,Uttarayana does not fall these days in Dhanishta but in an entirelydifferent nakshatra.> > > <This itself shows the control was done by wintersolstice,uttaryan. the fact that this point remained uttarayan for overone thoousand years show that it was nirayan too.>> > > Why are u clining to the nirayana and sayana myths created byjyotishis? How can Uttarayana be nirayana or sayana when it is aseasonal phenomenon that has

nothing to do with precession, leave alonethe so called ayanamsha?> > > <Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poushpurnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashisas you say>> > > That is exactly what is happening these days! Magha Shukla pakshastarts more or less one month after the start of real Magha Shuklapaksha since these days we are not celebrating the Vedic or VedangaJyotisha Magha but Lahiri Magha! But then how does that justify ourcelebrating all the festivals on wrong days?> > > <Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.>> > > What culture are you talking about? In the real Vedic culture, thewords like nirayana and sayana do not exist at all since we do not findthem in any of the Puranas, leave alone the Vedas! So what r u talkingabout? Pl. do read my posts again! I have proved it

with hundreds ofproofs that nirayana is really niradhar and so is sayana! But since thesolar months like Madhu, Madhava or the Vedic lunar Chaitra, Vaishkhaetc. are real astronomical phenomena, they are the only ones that arethe real halmarks of the real Vedic culture!In a nutshell, the more utry to accommodate the so called Vedic jyotishis the more u will defeatyour own purpose! Pl., therefore, do come out of this stupor of nirayanaversus sayana mess and stop reapeating the same "15 degrees forward andfifteen degrees backward" theory again and again!> > > With regards,A K Kaul> > > PS I am still out of town and have talked about the VJ mantra frommy memory! Pl. do not impale me if there is some "typo" in the exactreferences!> > > AKK> > >> > > In HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@>wrote:>> Dear Kaul saheb,> To

my knowlege vedic months were neversolar.I have read that even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovidethe vedic quote for solar monthsa and only guessed there may have beensolar months, with the same names as the lunar ones.which is alsodoubtful to have same names for two different things. The lunar monthswere confirmed also by the fact that many reference are available aboutlunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the month..> WEdo not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved byvedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at thesolistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control thelunar months.It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh suklapratipada and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha.This itselfshows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the fact thatthis> > > point remained uttarayan for

over one thoousand years show that itwas nirayan too.Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted toPoush purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import ofrashis as you say.> Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of ourculture.Also when the months were called as Chaitra, Baisakh,since theywere tied to nakshyatras, how can you say they were not nirayan?.Istying to nakshyatras not making it nirayan.Off course, th e lunar tithiscould be both nirayan and sayan simultaneously, for over a thousandyears as I have already explained in my previous mails.> Thanking you,Iremain> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla> > > > > ____________ __________________ __> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > HinduCalendar > Monday, April 20, 2009 12:26:37 PM> Subject:[HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Shri

Hari Malla ji,>Namaskar!> Vedic solar months, whether u name them> > > Tapah, Tapasya etc. or Magha, Phalguna etc. have absolutelynothing to do with New and Full Moons. They have, on the other hand,everything to do with the two equinoxes and solstices! That means thatVedic solar months are directly related to seasons!> On the other hand,it is the Vedic lunar synodic months that are dependent on solar months.As and when there are more than one New Moon between two solaringresses, there is a lunar adhika masa! As and when there is no Newmoon between two solar months, that is a kshyaya masa! > If u delink thelunar synodic months from seasonal solar months, u will be following theHejira i.e. Muslim calendar! Since the real Vedic lunar months arerelated to seasonal solar months, so called nirayana lunar months areequally an Islamic calendar since those months are not related

toseasonal solar months but to Lahiri solar months!> > Now coming to thenirayana versus sayana myth! Solar months are neither nirayana nor> > > sayana, since that curse is meant only for Mesha, Vrisha etc.rashis! In fact the nirayana myth has been created by Hindu jyotihis onthe basis of the most monstrous astronomical work viz. Surya Sidhanta byMaya the mlechha! Those jyotishis had to invent an anti-nirayana mythand they named that myth as sayana!> > Astronomically, there are noMesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, since the Rashichakra itself is an imaginarybelt! Its components can never be real since if the sum total of theparts itself is imaginary, its ingredients are also imaginary! Thatobivates the possibility of niryana-versus- sayana myth evenscientifically! > Regarding the Pauranic lore, whenever any Mesha,Vrihsa etc. Rashis have been mentioned, they are all related to

seasons!(Pl. see npj3.doc, BVB6.doc, 1999b.doc). As such, even the Pauranic loredoes not talk of any so called nirayana curse!> "Vedic astrologers"themselves are running after imaginary ayanamshas! There is no> > > astrological work, except the fake Brihat Parasharis galore, thathas talked of any Ayanamsha myth! It is therefore a moot point as towhat Ayanamsha the authors of those wroks, right from Sphujidwaja' sYavana Jatakam through Brihat Jatakam and Uttarakalarta or JatakaParaijata or Manasagari etc. etc. to Mukunda Daivajnyas TriskandaJyotisha used since no work on predictive astrology has talked about anyayanamsha!> As such, why are are clamouring for an imaginary will of thewisp, which will only scuttle your own efforts for reforming the Hinducalendar?> With regards,> A K Kaul> > HinduCalendar@ , Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:>

>> > Dear Kaul Saheb,> >namaskar!To continue my discussion,let us coin a new word.The authenticnirayan sankranti.When a nirayan sankranti has the right to representthe sayan sankranti, we may say it the authentic nirayan sankranti..Ifit has no right then it is not authorised.how does the> authority> > > come? It is given by the full moon zone.If the connected full moonzone embraces the sayan sankrani too, then that nirayan sankranti hasthe authentic right to represent that sayan sankranti too.The presentmakar sankanti had the authentic right to represent the sayan sankrantitill 1400 AD.The reseaon is til then the connected full moon the PoushPurnima embraced the sayan sankranti every third year during itsfluctuation. So if the puranas say makar sankranti for uttaryan duringthat period, it means the nirayan makar sankranti which had theauthentic right to represent the

sayan uttaryan.It did not mean thesayan uttarayan sankranti itself.This is proved by the practice too.We>do> > magh snana till date on the nirayan sakranti.We cannot say it waswrong to do so.Only the dead habit was carried over from the authenticdays to the present, when that authentication is no more.This may becalled as the inadvertant use of the custome. At present the> > > authentic makaar sankranti is the present dhanu sankranti. Becausethe present Mangsir purnima does embrace the sayan sankranti giving theauthentic representation to Dhanu sankranti, as nirayan uttarayan, beingsituated at the middle of the zone of Mangsir purnima.Thus the need toshift the name of Poush fullmoon to mangsir fullmoon, and the name ofmakar sankranti to the present Dhanu sankranti .This shifting of thename is to be done during calender reform process in the sayan fashion,to uphold our dharma shastras,

as suggested by SB Dixit.Then allproblems are solved.The rashis can continue to remain in the new positonfor another 15 00- 2000 years.These rashis may be called> > as theepochal nirayan rashis.The old rashis as original rashis,as they are.The authentic representation of the nirayan sankranti is also restoredby the new epochal rashis.The appropriate full moon which embraces thesayan sankranti is also restored.How do we get the> power> > > to shift the names like this. This is making use of the sayansystem, which gives us the right to shift the names.In this way we go oncoordinating the epochal nirayan sankranti with the sayan sankrantisevery 2150 years, and authorised them to represent the sayan sankranti,which is the present practice. > > From the story which was narrated,this authority is given to Vishnu (or the nirayan sakranti) by Shiva(fullmoon) and Brahma (or sayan

sakranti) does not get that right.Brahmais the pole star, Vishnu is the sun.Thus solar nirayan sankranti getsthe right to represent the full moon(shiva) i.e. to get worshipped, butthe sayn sankranti does not get that right.This is our present practicetoo.Only calculation may be done on the basis of the sayan sakranti.> >Have I been able to clarify? Please reply.thank you,> > Sincerelyyours,> > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ ___________> > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ...>> > To:> > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 200910:11:24 PM> > Re: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > >> Dear Kaul saheb,> > I feel my previous reply was not to thepoint.Please let me express my viewpoint about sayan and nirayan.Youwill agree that when the two sankrantis

are at the same point as in thebeginning, it is the same wether we say sayan or nirayan.They have thesame meaning.In the same way with respect to festivals if both thesankranits are within the same fullmoon zone we do not have to botherwether it is sayan or nirayn, because to that fullmon both the sayanaand the nirayan sankranits are meeting it, as it were, it is at the samepoint as in the beginning.This realisation is important.Sayan andnirayan meeting at the same solar date occurs only may be one year (orfor a few years they are not distinguishable) .But sayan and nirayanvalue for tithi is effective not only one or a few years, but is> valid> > > for over 1000 years if considered on one side, and taking bothsides it is valid even for 2000years.This is very important tounderstand.Most people do> not> > seem to understand that.> > Thus myclaim is that during the vedanga

jyotish period it was not sayan as manypeople are prone to think it was both sayan and nirayan at the sametime.It was sayan and nirayan both at the same time even during therashi period too, if understood in a special way.How is this possible?>> Now we have to come to understand nirayan sakranti with a specialmeaning.The special meaning is this, nirayan sankranti is the middlepoint of full moon zone. This is more exact meaning than the nirayansankranit is as attached to a certain star.The fullmoon is attached totwo or three nakshyatras and the nirayan sankranti is at the middle ofthe two or three nakshyatras as the middle of the fullmoon zone..Tounderstand what I am trying to say,one should get the habit of knowing> > > that the sankranti and the fullmoon zone are at 180 degreesapart.for example mesh sanrkanti is opposite(or at 180 degrees) to themid point of chitraa nakshyatara. this

habit is very good to undertandthe coordinated system of calender reform.It is necessary to know aboutthe concept of integrated sakranti- fullmon zone.Here in Nepal we havemade drawing of the 12 sankranti-full moon zones. they are named as1.mesh sankranti- chaitra full moon zone 2.Vrish> > sankranti-Baisakhfull moon zone etc etc.upto 12 sankranti-fullmoon zones.> > AS long asthe sayan sakranti is within one full moon zone then the tropical andthe sidereal sankrantis being within the same fullmoon have the dualmeaning of it being both sayan and nirayan at the same time.may e I stophere.but i wil make it clearer next time.thanking you,> > Sincerelyyours,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ ___________> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..>> > To:> > > HinduCalendar> > Sent:

Sunday, April 19, 20096:52:13 PM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > >> > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> > Namaskar!> > I am still out of town andwill be back in Delhi on April 23. I am just tryinhg to catch with thebacklog from my mobile phone internet, lest people consider me a spentforce!> > However, the more I read your mails, the more amused I am! > >U can decide Vedic rashis being sayana or nirayana only after u canquote the Vedic mantras that talk of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis! Thereare no such curses in the Rik Jyotisham, Yajur Jyotisham or even AtharvaVeda Parishishta, leave alone any of the Vedas! Thus Mesha etc.. rashisare conspicuous by their absence from the Vedic lore!> > Some "Vedicastrologers" call Srimad Bhagavatam as Panchama Veda! They may be right!But when it comes to discussion about the nature of

Rahsi in thatPanchama Veda, they start saying blah, blah, blah!> > > What types of rashis are in the Puranas will be clear from1999b.doc and also BVB6.doc. All those Pauranic rashis are so calledsayana!> > Personally, I have yet to find any mention of any so callednirayana Rashichakra in any of the Puranas or even the Sidhantas! If uhave come across such references, pl. do enlighten me!> > With regards,>> A K Kaul> > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla<harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Prashant Pandeyji,> > > <But forHindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenayfor meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).>> > > > > > For your devotion to yourdharma, I want to tell you a famous story of our dharma explaining theimportance and limitation of sayan sankranti and nirayan

sankrantis.Itis said once a quarrel started between Brahmaji and Vishnuji as to whowas the greater between them.The quarrel went unsettled for ten thousanddivya varsha.Then suddenly there appeard a flame of> > > light between them and both were surprised to see this third thingappearing.They were curious toknow waht it was. Branhma anted to findwhere its top as and flew upwards and vishunu wanted to find its rootorbottom and went downwards..Later Vishnu appeared saying he could notfind the bottom.Then Brhama appeared saying he found the top and broughtwith him witnesses one of which was the kamadhenu cow.Now shiva appearedefore them and said,Brahama told al lie saying he found the top withoutfindngg it, so he shall not be worshippeed. but because Vishnuadmeiitted the truth, he will b> > > worshipped.Theyn say taht is thereason why we have no temple towordhip Brahmaji.> > >

Here follows theastrological meaning of the story.Brahma is pole star or northstar.Vishnu is the sun whom we call Surya narayan.The pole star is highin the sky above the north pole.> > > From the pole star looking down wesee the earth, which is also known as the cow,> > > kamadhenu.Thus looking from the earth or north pole up towards thesky,the pole star is apparently seen as the top of the sky.But the truthis that the lunar pole or the centre of the lunar orbit ie. bary centreis the actual top, which is Shiva himself.Now we should know that thesayan sankranti is related to the pole star or its postion. The nirayansankranti is related to the sun and the solar sankranti.This is why wegive importance to the nirayan sankranit and not to the sayan sankrantifor religious purpose and also in astrology, although we take the sayanpositon for the actual calculations of the heavenly bodies

etc.> > > Ihope I have expresssed what I wanted to say.> > > thanking you,> > >Sincerely yours,> > > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >____________ _________ _________ __> > > Prashant Pandey<praspandey@ ....>> > > HinduCalendar> > > Sent:Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:18:15 AM> > > Subject:> [HinduCalendar]> > > Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I recentlyheard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan systemfor the celebration of their festivals..This is what worries me..>> > >> > > yeahoooo> > > > > > ting ding ding ding ding !> > > > > > Sirjithis is the reality of our HINDU DHARMA. Believe

me!> > > > > > We hadtropical calendar in past, this our Dharma Grantha says.That is ourancient Vedic Calendar in true sense.> > > > > > Sir for your kindinformation south indian's are best in astrology and about knowing theancient facts of Hindu Dharma.> > > > > > I was also aware that SouthIndians will start this reform and will reinstate our vedic calendarbecause they are the best, and they have courage.> > > > > > All naadiastrological works are from south india.Thy have done beautifullresearch, no doubt, i should say they are best in the world inastrology..> > > > > > We can abuse Kaulji but he is correct in his> > > research.S B Dixit, i think also South Indian, he has also saidsame thing and now in South India, some temples have reinstaed the VedicCalendar.Good News!> > > > > > I am

also also ardent follower of Nirayan(Sidereal) sytem(also of tropical)..> > > > > > But for Hindu Dharma, iwill put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaraydharm ke liye).> > > > > > Thanks again for Good News!> > > > > > Now iam happy and can sleep well.> > > > > > Regs,> > > Prashant Pandey> > >> > > Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com,Prashant <praspandey@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Nairji,>> > > As you suggest?I stop here, since you are irritated unnecessarilywithout searching for the truth.But let me remind you that I am not infavoour of pure sayan system as you understand.? I want to protect andpresearve?the nirayan system in a reseasonble way.The reason?I want todo this?is because sayan is

trying to> > > overcome our nirayan culture..I recently heard that in Tamil nadu30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration oftheir festivals.This is what worries me.Well if you want them toincrease and increase, it is upto you.You may please check from Robertwilkinson of the WAves forum, if it is true or not.Also know thatMr.Kaul has?said both sayan and nirayan Niradhar.Any way, at present Iam in no mood to continue with this subject here either. Thanking you,?Isay goodbye,> > > > ?sincerely yours,> > > > Hari Malla.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@ >> > > > vedic astrology > > > > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:48:49 PM> > >>

[vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology , "sunil nair"> > > > <astro_tellerkerala> > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > dear hari malla ji and sreenadh ji> > > > >> > > malla ji says shri kaul ji is ready to change his attitude or mayb> > > > malla ji can make it happen ,kaul jis confessions andconversion are> > > > always welcome> > > > > > > > But the problem wontend there> > > > > > > > First of all he shud decide/agree what is Hinduastrological> > > > -astronomical concept and he shud discard hissupport for sayana western> > > > zodiacs and praising of

theircontributions .His calendrical concepts> > > > are based on a movingvishuva bindu ,so the rasi belt ( the path ) moves> > > > with thechanges in vishuva bindu which is western concept not indian> > > >jyothishchakra ( hindu /baudha /jaina /charvaka etc ) .indian concept> >> > is based on nakshtra and fixed point of meshadi and aswinadi aramba>> > > chart> > > > > > > > ,if malla ji thinks it is varahamihira strtedit i think he is wrong> > > > ,pls refer parasara hora ,chapter 3> > > shloka numbrs 3 to 7 ,nakshtrani> > > > grhanam ----- to meshadinamaka rasaya syu part .> > > > > > > > so for us rasi chakra is thepath for grahas and nakshtras and other> > > > points required for ajyothichakra .And it has to b fixed one .And for> > > > us rasi

andbhava is imp .lagna and Houses decide every thing and> > > > ownerships/shodasa vargas and all other mathematical points like ucha> > > >,neecha and even gulika/mrityu sputa etc all r based on a fixed rasi> >> > chart .where as if we can use kaul's version then path is movingand> > > > grahas moving and nakshtras moving tho mathematicaly grahaposition ( i> > > > mean stithi ) point is same in both concepts whichhas diffrnt> > > > parameters ,so logicaly mathematicaly both may bcorrect apparently but> > > > cannot compromise because acccording hisconcept or supporting> > > > arguemnts will take us to think that theroad and vehicles both r moving> > > > ( zodiac is moving back> and> > > grahas are moving forward ) .So when some> > > > one is travellingwe hav to say delhi

has come to him than he reached to> > > > delhi byroad ,still the question of timing such purticular event in> > > >advance how it is possible when both r moving ??why we need to> > > >complicate every thing ??> > > > > > > > so i hope malla ji may revisehis views .> > > > > > > > also according to vedic concept the vishnunabhi is important in> > > > thinking abt creation of universe and herethe moola nakshtra ( as it is> > > > base or root ) and jyeshta ( eldestone ) is also has to b considered as> > > > based on it all nakshtraconcept is based than some one interpret some> > > > vedic mantras askritikati naksktras in some time of vedic periods is> > > > the strtingpoint ,it has diffrnt meaning may b ,and vishuva bindu> > > > cannot b astrting point when

thinking abt creation of universe as it is> > > > thebasis of rai chakra ( rahu -sikhi chakra )> >> > >> > > > > > > so many things accepted as vedic will b diffrnt frmkaulian argumnts> > > > and i dont think ther is any chance ofreconciling both arguemnts .> > > > > > > > so he has only 2 choice.either discard his arguemnts or go ahed> > > > without any use exceptname calling and a chance to call astrologers as> > > > frauds in thename of a impractical calender ,like wat he was doing for> > > > almostquarter century .> > > > > > > > let us forget abt he abused ancientrishies / acharyas and dharma gurus> > > > and sankaracharyas .Alsohaunting any one who is interested in astrology> > > > by gate crashingtechnics and guerrilla technics .>

> > > > > > > rgrds sunil nair .> > >> > > > > Om shreem mahalaxmai namah .> > > > > > > > --- Inancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Hari Malla ji,> > > > > //> Thank you forthe frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most of us> > > lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.//> > > >> Sorry... I think this itself is the very thing he lacks! He is NOT> >> > > devoted to the purpose of calendar reform, but just to the his> >> > roadside> > > > > rowdy bad mouth attitude against astrologers andastrology alone. If> > > > > ever he been dedicated to the subject ofVedic calender reform even> >

> > for> > > > > at least 3 months or sohe would have prepared the the skeleton frame> > > > > work of the same,and also might have written good descriptive article> > > > > about itscomponents, organization, co-relation, purpose etc. He is> > > > yet> >> > > to implement even these tasks, which a knowledeable individual whomay> > > > > dedicate 3 months to this subject may do. This not onlyprove that he> > > > is> > > > > incapable, but also that he got NODEVOTION to the purpose of vedic> > > > > calender reform. Mark it.> > >> > // I have requested him .... Hopefully> he> > > may agree....... I think it> > > > > may be worthwhile to talk andnegotiate.// > > > > > Hopes are always good. Whether it be SunilNair ji,

Sunil> > > > > Bhattacharjya ji or Me, we all once had arespect for this man, which> > > > we> > > > > all lost in due courseduring our repeated interactions with that foul> > > > > mouth, withoutconstructive attitude and respect for the contributions> > > > > of ourancistors. You can have your turn, and wish you all the best in> > > > >your sincere efforts. > > > > > //If he comes to term with somethngwhich is commonly acceptable why> > > > not> > > > > go along withhim?//> > > > > Yes, certainly if he wish he can join us and come alongwith. Or if> > > > > you wish you can join him and go along with. Butthe point is the> > > > > purpose of evey stream, school of knowledgeand individuals differ and> > > > > the group is just a

meeting place.The true contributions are always> > > > > done by> > > individuals and is individualistic. This being so - neither I> > >> > need the help of Kaul nor Kaul need the help of me. The same couldbe> > > > > true about the contibution of anyone with in this group oroutside.> > > > > //After all we must divide our work.//> > > > > Haveyour ever tried it (especially related astrological research)?> > > > >And what was the result? What are the lessons you learned from that> > >> > experience? We all would be eager to know. If you have evertried> > > > > the same, you would sure be able to answer thosequestions. But if you> > > > > haven't ever tried the same - then youradvice does not hold any> > > > water.> > > > > Any way I am

insupport of that statement, but at times when it> > > > comes> > > > > toastrological research, I don't find anyone to divide my work with!> > >> > > > > > May be I may change this opinion as I see more sincere atthe same> > > > time> > > > > knowledgeable> individuals.> > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > >ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla> > > > >harimalla@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadhji,> > > > > >Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > >> > most of us lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.>> > > > After all we must divide our work.If he

comes to term withsomethng> > > > > which is commonly acceptable why not go along withhim?> > > > > > I feel we can work something which harmonises all, whichkeeps up> > > > our> > > > > nirayan tradition and also correct thetimes of festivals..The rashis> > > > > must continue, as much of ourreligious literature and the present> > > > > jyotish system is basedand has been written using them. I have> > > > > requested him not tryto get rid of the rashis and also tolerate the> > > > > nirayan systemin a coordinated fashion with the sayan system.> > > > >> >> > > Hopefully he may agree.I have not been in contact with him forsome> > > > > time.Shree Sunil Bahatacharyaji, thinks he may not agreeovernight.But> > > > I> > > >

> think it may be worthwhile to talk andnegotiate.thank you...> > > > > > Sincerely yours,> > > > > > HariMalla> > > > >> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions ofthis message have been removed]> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends toyour messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> >> >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >>> > >> > > --- End

forwarded message ---> > >> > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >>>>>> ____________ _________ _________ __> From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. >