Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 , " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: dear respected bhaskar ji i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the name of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything and even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs , i hav so many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for many to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness in our approach and activities and they think it as weakness if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme arrogance . did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way . malla ji says " " " we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra). " " " " " " " " " Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together " " " " sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra just waisting time of others and This will come around feb 6th to sun to atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now they will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti ?? where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ?? kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its hands at our wish and will where is pole star???? did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever contributed to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced them first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this sastra has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of calenders and hindu festivals . he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and gone to bananas now again coming with blah blah blah theories . when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal daiorria rgrds sunil nair , " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > Respected Sirs, > > What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of > Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ? > > If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in > future too ? > > regards, > > Bhaskar. , Hari Malla > harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for > the interest. > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original > requirement.Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these > factors no more meet simultaneously.Thus the need to reform it to its > original status. > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa > nakshyatra).Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish > intact. > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras). > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the > best type of people in the world. > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank > you, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari malla > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Cc: astrologyandremedies ; ancient indian astrology > > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > > Re: Calender reform > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and > other > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based > calender and > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > > 180 deg 3sec. > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious > requirements of any group or sect in India. > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at > a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical > co-ordinates. > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also > available. > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free > to do so. > > > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we > are now using most modern > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now > follow geocentric > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the > effect of Helio- centric > > co-ordinates. > > Regards, > > G.K.GOEL > > Ph: 09350311433 > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > > NEW DELHI-110 076 > > INDIA > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and > tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are > certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is > bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are > celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If > this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is > violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes > it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to > time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by > Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this > merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the > lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking > you ,I remain, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari Malla > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 ATTACKERS ON ASTROLOGERS WILL GO TO HELL ONE DAY  HE HAS ATTACKED MANY MANY  PAGAL HAI  DON’T WASTE YOUR TIME ON THIS MENTALLY ILL PERSON  HE HAS DIARRHEA IN HIS MOUTH SO DO SHIT  HE HAS TO DIE INSTANTLY ONE DAY LIKE A DOG  HE HAS NOTHING TO PRESENT  SOME DAYS BACK HE WAS SAYING THAT VEDIC CALENDAR IS NIRAYANA NOW HE ATE HIS VOMIT AND ALSO MADE SAYANA CALENDAR  THEY HAVE TO ABUSE ALL  YOU CAN SEE NOBODY IS ACTIVE ON THEIR FORUMS   --- On Tue, 28/4/09, prashanthnair999 <prashanthnair999 wrote: prashanthnair999 <prashanthnair999 [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Calender reform vedic astrology Tuesday, 28 April, 2009, 8:30 PM ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: dear respected bhaskar ji i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the name of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything and even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs , i hav so many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for many to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness in our approach and activities and they think it as weakness if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme arrogance . did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way . malla ji says " " " we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra). " " " " " " " " " Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together " " " " sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra just waisting time of others and This will come around feb 6th to sun to atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now they will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti ?? where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ?? kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its hands at our wish and will where is pole star???? did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever contributed to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced them first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this sastra has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of calenders and hindu festivals . he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and gone to bananas now again coming with blah blah blah theories . when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal daiorria rgrds sunil nair ancient_indian_ astrology, " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > Respected Sirs, > > What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of > Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ? > > If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in > future too ? > > regards, > > Bhaskar. ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla > harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for > the interest. > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original > requirement. Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these > factors no more meet simultaneously. Thus the need to reform it to its > original status. > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa > nakshyatra). Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish > intact. > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras) . > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the > best type of people in the world. > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank > you, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Cc: astrologyandremedie s ; ancient indian astrology > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > > Re: Calender reform > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and > other > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based > calender and > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > > 180 deg 3sec. > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious > requirements of any group or sect in India. > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at > a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical > co-ordinates. > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also > available. > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free > to do so. > > > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we > are now using most modern > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now > follow geocentric > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the > effect of Helio- centric > > co-ordinates. > > Regards, > > G.K.GOEL > > Ph: 09350311433 > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > > NEW DELHI-110 076 > > INDIA > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and > tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are > certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is > bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are > celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If > this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is > violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes > it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to > time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by > Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this > merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the > lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking > you ,I remain, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari Malla > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 bingo bingo  they have to abuse all  in past one of their gang member said that SJC is propogating mantra which we use to do at funeral ceremony  i will disclose his name with phone recording  they have abused all they are big blot in the name of astrologers  they are shit --- On Tue, 28/4/09, Bingo Bingo <bingo.bingo78 wrote: Bingo Bingo <bingo.bingo78 Re: [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Calender reform vedic astrology Tuesday, 28 April, 2009, 9:32 PM ATTACKERS ON ASTROLOGERS WILL GO TO HELL ONE DAY  HE HAS ATTACKED MANY MANY  PAGAL HAI  DON’T WASTE YOUR TIME ON THIS MENTALLY ILL PERSON  HE HAS DIARRHEA IN HIS MOUTH SO DO SHIT  HE HAS TO DIE INSTANTLY ONE DAY LIKE A DOG  HE HAS NOTHING TO PRESENT  SOME DAYS BACK HE WAS SAYING THAT VEDIC CALENDAR IS NIRAYANA NOW HE ATE HIS VOMIT AND ALSO MADE SAYANA CALENDAR  THEY HAVE TO ABUSE ALL  YOU CAN SEE NOBODY IS ACTIVE ON THEIR FORUMS   --- On Tue, 28/4/09, prashanthnair999 <prashanthnair999@ > wrote: prashanthnair999 <prashanthnair999@ > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Calender reform vedic astrology Tuesday, 28 April, 2009, 8:30 PM ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: dear respected bhaskar ji i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the name of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything and even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs , i hav so many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for many to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness in our approach and activities and they think it as weakness if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme arrogance . did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way . malla ji says " " " we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra). " " " " " " " " " Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together " " " " sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra just waisting time of others and This will come around feb 6th to sun to atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now they will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti ?? where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ?? kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its hands at our wish and will where is pole star???? did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever contributed to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced them first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this sastra has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of calenders and hindu festivals . he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and gone to bananas now again coming with blah blah blah theories . when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal daiorria rgrds sunil nair ancient_indian_ astrology, " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > Respected Sirs, > > What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of > Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ? > > If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in > future too ? > > regards, > > Bhaskar. ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla > harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for > the interest. > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original > requirement. Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these > factors no more meet simultaneously. Thus the need to reform it to its > original status. > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa > nakshyatra). Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish > intact. > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras) . > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the > best type of people in the world. > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank > you, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Cc: astrologyandremedie s ; ancient indian astrology > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > > Re: Calender reform > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and > other > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based > calender and > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > > 180 deg 3sec. > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious > requirements of any group or sect in India. > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at > a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical > co-ordinates. > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also > available. > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free > to do so. > > > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we > are now using most modern > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now > follow geocentric > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the > effect of Helio- centric > > co-ordinates. > > Regards, > > G.K.GOEL > > Ph: 09350311433 > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > > NEW DELHI-110 076 > > INDIA > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and > tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are > certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is > bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are > celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If > this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is > violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes > it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to > time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by > Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this > merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the > lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking > you ,I remain, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari Malla > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Dear Goelji, I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for the interest. Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original requirement..Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these factors no more meet simultaneously.Thus the need to reform it to its original status. From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra).Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish intact. These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras). Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the best type of people in the world.So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank you, sincerely yours, Hari malla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Respected Sirs, 1) What difference will it make to our conducting religious ceremonies by changing the calendar dates? Would we become better human beings by doing so ? Would our ceremonies then make us more happier ? Would Diwali become more brighter by doing so ? Would Holi become more colourful ? 2) What difference will this change make to the astrologers ? Would their predictions become more effective ? 3) We are already shifting the Raashis one sign backwards while computing Horoscope for Predictive analysis including Nakshatras. . This new change suggested by your goodself, how will it effect astrological predictions ? 4) How can we say that at present the religious observances we practise, are lame and not to the mark, and how can we prove this in actual physical tangibles (Like the Hindu astrologers are able to prove so well in their predictions when they deduct the ayanamsha value from the Tropical longitudes) , and also how would you prove after effecting the change through physical tangibles ? Except for the continous hollering about wating to make changes through theoretical arguments and discussions, show us the actual proof of the religious observances of today as " lame " and how do you propose to make it " more developed " in actual ? regards, Bhaskar. , Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: > > Dear Goelji, > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for the interest. > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original requirement.Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these factors no more meet simultaneously.Thus the need to reform it to its original status. > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra).Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish intact. > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras). > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the best type of people in the world. > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank you, > sincerely yours, > Hari malla > > > > ________________________________ > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937 > Hari Malla harimalla > Cc: astrologyandremedies ; ancient indian astrology > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > Re: Calender reform > > > Dear Friend, > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and other > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based calender and > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > 180 deg 3sec. > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious requirements of any group or sect in India. > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical co-ordinates. > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also available. > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free to do so. > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we are now using most modern > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now follow geocentric > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the effect of Helio- centric > co-ordinates. > Regards, > G.K.GOEL > Ph: 09350311433 > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > NEW DELHI-110 076 > INDIA > > > > > ________________________________ > Hari Malla harimalla > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937 > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > Dear Goelji, > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking you ,I remain, > sincerely yours, > Hari Malla > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > " harimalla " harimalla > HinduCalendar > Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:15:13 AM > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi Dear Prashanta Pandeyji, > I think we have come to some serious decision making point.Upon this point hinges the whole success and failure of our calendar reform proposal.plese check the version of vedanga jyotish; it says, > When the sun is dhanistha, the uttrayan, the month of maagha and the sukla pakshya of tapa start together.. > You will see that the date of tapa sukla pratipada means that tapa is a lunar tropical month.Month of Maagha also means it is a lunar month, with the full moon tied with maghaa nakshyatra.This is sideral. Thus the lunar month defined here is both sidereal and tropical at the same time. > This is also the reason why we have to compromise between sidereal and tropical sytem.Lunar months are tropical and sideral both at the same time. That is the reson why I propose 6 degrees ayanamsa to be still there but niryan sankranti is to be brought near the tropical sankranti for coordination of the two.You also know that our festivals are celebrated by tithis.Thus we have to understand the behaviour of our tithi and its month to solve our problem of calender reform. Thus there is no escape but to compromise both tropical and sideral.. > This was the intention of the story of Brahma and vishnu quarreling with each other for a lo;ng time till finally they were coordinated by Shivaji..Shivaji also said that vishnu is to be worshipped and not brahma.This means we have to celebrate our festivals by nirayan sakranti and not by sayan sankranti.But they must be witin the range of the same full moon so Shiva can coordinate them.This coordiantion you have called as compromise.I say it should be done, as it is our practice in the past.thank you, > Sincerely yours, > Hari Malla > > HinduCalendar, " Prashant Pandey " <praspandey@ ....> wrote: > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > Sir in my view you are wrong in making your views but i respect your efforts. > > > > Tapa, Tapasya can't be lunar. > > > > Regs, > > Prashant Pandey > > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kaul saheb, > > > I?have checked it in vedanga jyotish and it?is the sixth sloka and it says the month of maagha and the sukla padkshya of tapa.Thus these two refer to the same lunar month, tapa used for the pakshya and maagha used for the name of the month.I understand tapa as old lunar month denoting season, here tapa is used for pakshya andthus it can never be soalr month.maagha also can never be solar because the full moon lis linked to magghaa nskshyatra.Only lunar month have full moons.Thus both tapa and maaagha are lunar.So tapa has been ussed for lunar seasonal month or pakshya and maagha for the newly formed sidereal lunar month. Thus one is seasonal and the other is sidereal.Not one as solar and the other as lunar. > > > Uttaryan? with sun at dhanishta is unmistakable, ?I agree.Since only the lunar month and date?was there, the intention to fix the lunar uttarayn date is also indicated, when it is said that at the same time? magha month and tapa?sukla partipada (meanig maagha sukla pratipada) occurs. > > > Madhuschai Madhavaschai vasantikav ritu, means lunar vasanta.Those days since only lunar months were there, one need not say lunar or solar.That was the only type of month althoough the year was always solar marked by teh solstice only.Solar year and lunar months are the natural things in nature being true natural cycles.?That is, in my view, why they had the adhimas system right from the beginning of the vedic culture, to?match the lunar months?with the solar year.Solar months were conveniently made? at 30 degrees each, later on, to approximate the lunar months, with the help of the rashis.They were not in the beginning. > > > The vedic months could never be islamic- like because they always had adhimases right from the beginning.They also had 19 or 38 or 95 year cycles to control it further, the left overs.Thus we should never think of having islamic type of?months.They had lunar seasons and lunar ayans and lunar years.Moslems do not have lunar seasons and ayans.? > > > More in my next mail. thanking you, > > > Sincerelyyours, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > > > hinducalendar > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:06:21 AM > > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,Namaskar! > > > < To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read that even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote for solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been solar months, with the same names as the lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same names for two different things. > > > > There is a mantra in the Vedanga Jyotisha, perhaps 5th mantra, which states that when the sun and the moon conjoin in Danishtha, it is Uttarayana, Tapah and Magha and a new five year yuga starts. Dikshit has translated Tapah as season, but that would mean that there would be twelve seasons instead of six seasons in a year. If Tapah is also taken as the name of the lunar month instead of the solar month, then Magha will have to be taken as a solar month, since Punarukti in the same mantra is repugnant to the Vedic ethos..That means that Tapah is the solar month of Shishira Ritu---and not of Greeshma ritu, as some muladhara-walas would like us to believe! > > > If u try to ascertain the longitudes of stars and also the tithi etc. for January 1, 1400 BCE fropm Vasishtha and Mahesh/ganesh programs, u will find that as on January 1, 1400 BCE, the New Moon was really conjunct Dhanishtha star, it was also away by 270 degrees from the mean equator and equinox of that date! That means it was really Utarayana as well as a New Moon in Dhanishtha on that date!Similarly, there is a mantra, perhaps seventh, in the same Vedanga Jyotisha which states that from the day of Udagayana, days start increasing by ...prasthas. That certainly means that by Udagayana, the VJ meant nothning but Uttarayana, since it is only from that day that the day starts increasin as compared to nights, Winter Solstice being the shortest day of the year. > > > We also find references in the Yajurveda stating " madhuschai madhavashchai vasantikav ritu.. " etc. U will find a lot of material in 1999b.doc regarding the Vedic months being aligned to seasons. > > > > > > <The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are available about lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the month.> > > > Vedanga Jyotisha is of an era of at least 1400 BCE. It is not an exact astronomical work at all! The duration of a solar year as per that work is 366 days, which is neither sidereal nor tropical! The mothodology of calculating tithi etc. in that work is meant for calculating mean tithis and nakshatras and not the true ones! The ending moments of nakshatras and tithis etc. as per that work are thus not accurate at all! However, they serve as a milepost for future guidelines, and those guidelines are that the Vedic calendar was seasonal, months were solar to start with and lunar synodic months were pegged to the same.If we eliminate solar ingress of Madhu, Madhava etc. and take both Madhu, Madhava as well as Chaitra, Vaishakha as lunar synodic months, we will be left with something like an Islamic calendar! > > > We cannot ignore the two solstices and equinoxes at any cost! They have to be given some names! That is why the Vj states that the Udagayana, the month of Tapah and Magha start simultaneously! There is every possibility that the ancient astronomers of India were not that adept in calculating the timings of exact phenomena of Uttarayana and Dakshinayana or Vasanta and Hemanta Sampat! They could be plus/minus one day or may be even more from the actual timings of such phenomena! > > > I find references in the Puranas that it is difficult even for yogis to determine the exact timings of ayanas and vishuvas. (Pl. see 1999b..doc, rashi5.doc, BVB6.doc etc). It is a fact that on the day of Uttarayana the sun is " stationary " for a nano-second before starting coming down from the maximum Southern declination! Same is the case with other ayana and sampat! The exact moments of those phenomena are for nano-seconds! It may be easy to find the exact timings of those phenomena with Xtreme Intel processors on the basis of data from NASA/JPL these days, but for Acharya Lagadha of at least fifteenth century BCE, that was a really difficult job! > > > We have, therefore, to see the spirit instead of the letter of such works and streamline our calendar in accordance with that spirit! > > > > > > <WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control the lunar months.> > > > I am unable to get the drift of your statement! There cannot be an adhi or kshyaya lunar masa unless and until they are compared to something and that something is solar months! There can be a thirteenth synodic lunar month as adhimasa in a year when there is a yardstick of regular twelve months in that very year! And that yardstick is twelve solar months of a seasonal year! Besides, it is not necessary that an adhimasa will fall always on the day of Uttarayana! That just is next to impossible! > > > > > > <It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipada and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha> > > > The year at the time of Vedanga Jyotisha started with Uttarayana. And as already clarified, Acharya Lagadha had somehow determined a particular year when the Udagayana coincided with Magha Shukla Paksha. These days it is also a similar situation more or less---real Magha Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon after Uttarayana, which is also known as the month of Tapah. However, because of precession, Uttarayana does not fall these days in Dhanishta but in an entirely different nakshatra. > > > <This itself shows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the fact that this point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show that it was nirayan too.> > > > Why are u clining to the nirayana and sayana myths created by jyotishis? How can Uttarayana be nirayana or sayana when it is a seasonal phenomenon that has nothing to do with precession, leave alone the so called ayanamsha? > > > <Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poush purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashis as you say> > > > That is exactly what is happening these days! Magha Shukla paksha starts more or less one month after the start of real Magha Shukla paksha since these days we are not celebrating the Vedic or Vedanga Jyotisha Magha but Lahiri Magha! But then how does that justify our celebrating all the festivals on wrong days? > > > <Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.> > > > What culture are you talking about? In the real Vedic culture, the words like nirayana and sayana do not exist at all since we do not find them in any of the Puranas, leave alone the Vedas! So what r u talking about? Pl. do read my posts again! I have proved it with hundreds of proofs that nirayana is really niradhar and so is sayana! But since the solar months like Madhu, Madhava or the Vedic lunar Chaitra, Vaishkha etc. are real astronomical phenomena, they are the only ones that are the real halmarks of the real Vedic culture!In a nutshell, the more u try to accommodate the so called Vedic jyotishis the more u will defeat your own purpose! Pl., therefore, do come out of this stupor of nirayana versus sayana mess and stop reapeating the same " 15 degrees forward and fifteen degrees backward " theory again and again! > > > With regards,A K Kaul > > > PS I am still out of town and have talked about the VJ mantra from my memory! Pl. do not impale me if there is some " typo " in the exact references! > > > AKK > > > > > > In HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> wrote:>> Dear Kaul saheb,> To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read that even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote for solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been solar months, with the same names as the lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same names for two different things. The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are available about lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the month..> WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control the lunar months.It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipada and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha.This itself shows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the fact that this > > > point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show that it was nirayan too.Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poush purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashis as you say.> Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.Also when the months were called as Chaitra, Baisakh,since they were tied to nakshyatras, how can you say they were not nirayan?.Is tying to nakshyatras not making it nirayan.Off course, th e lunar tithis could be both nirayan and sayan simultaneously, for over a thousand years as I have already explained in my previous mails.> Thanking you,I remain> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > HinduCalendar@ . com> Monday, April 20, 2009 12:26:37 PM> Subject: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> Namaskar!> Vedic solar months, whether u name them > > > Tapah, Tapasya etc. or Magha, Phalguna etc. have absolutely nothing to do with New and Full Moons. They have, on the other hand, everything to do with the two equinoxes and solstices! That means that Vedic solar months are directly related to seasons!> On the other hand, it is the Vedic lunar synodic months that are dependent on solar months. As and when there are more than one New Moon between two solar ingresses, there is a lunar adhika masa! As and when there is no New moon between two solar months, that is a kshyaya masa! > If u delink the lunar synodic months from seasonal solar months, u will be following the Hejira i.e. Muslim calendar! Since the real Vedic lunar months are related to seasonal solar months, so called nirayana lunar months are equally an Islamic calendar since those months are not related to seasonal solar months but to Lahiri solar months!> > Now coming to the nirayana versus sayana myth! Solar months are neither nirayana nor > > > sayana, since that curse is meant only for Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis! In fact the nirayana myth has been created by Hindu jyotihis on the basis of the most monstrous astronomical work viz. Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha! Those jyotishis had to invent an anti-nirayana myth and they named that myth as sayana!> > Astronomically, there are no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, since the Rashichakra itself is an imaginary belt! Its components can never be real since if the sum total of the parts itself is imaginary, its ingredients are also imaginary! That obivates the possibility of niryana-versus- sayana myth even scientifically! > Regarding the Pauranic lore, whenever any Mesha, Vrihsa etc. Rashis have been mentioned, they are all related to seasons! (Pl. see npj3.doc, BVB6.doc, 1999b.doc). As such, even the Pauranic lore does not talk of any so called nirayana curse!> " Vedic astrologers " themselves are running after imaginary ayanamshas! There is no > > > astrological work, except the fake Brihat Parasharis galore, that has talked of any Ayanamsha myth! It is therefore a moot point as to what Ayanamsha the authors of those wroks, right from Sphujidwaja' s Yavana Jatakam through Brihat Jatakam and Uttarakalarta or Jataka Paraijata or Manasagari etc. etc. to Mukunda Daivajnyas Triskanda Jyotisha used since no work on predictive astrology has talked about any ayanamsha!> As such, why are are clamouring for an imaginary will of the wisp, which will only scuttle your own efforts for reforming the Hindu calendar?> With regards,> A K Kaul> > HinduCalendar@ . com, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Kaul Saheb,> > namaskar!To continue my discussion,let us coin a new word.The authentic nirayan sankranti.When a nirayan sankranti has the right to represent the sayan sankranti, we may say it the authentic nirayan sankranti..If it has no right then it is not authorised.how does the > authority > > > come? It is given by the full moon zone.If the connected full moon zone embraces the sayan sankrani too, then that nirayan sankranti has the authentic right to represent that sayan sankranti too.The present makar sankanti had the authentic right to represent the sayan sankranti till 1400 AD.The reseaon is til then the connected full moon the Poush Purnima embraced the sayan sankranti every third year during its fluctuation. So if the puranas say makar sankranti for uttaryan during that period, it means the nirayan makar sankranti which had the authentic right to represent the sayan uttaryan.It did not mean the sayan uttarayan sankranti itself.This is proved by the practice too.We> do> > magh snana till date on the nirayan sakranti.We cannot say it was wrong to do so.Only the dead habit was carried over from the authentic days to the present, when that authentication is no more.This may be called as the inadvertant use of the custome. At present the > > > authentic makaar sankranti is the present dhanu sankranti. Because the present Mangsir purnima does embrace the sayan sankranti giving the authentic representation to Dhanu sankranti, as nirayan uttarayan, being situated at the middle of the zone of Mangsir purnima.Thus the need to shift the name of Poush fullmoon to mangsir fullmoon, and the name of makar sankranti to the present Dhanu sankranti .This shifting of the name is to be done during calender reform process in the sayan fashion, to uphold our dharma shastras, as suggested by SB Dixit.Then all problems are solved.The rashis can continue to remain in the new positon for another 15 00- 2000 years.These rashis may be called> > as the epochal nirayan rashis.The old rashis as original rashis,as they are. The authentic representation of the nirayan sankranti is also restored by the new epochal rashis.The appropriate full moon which embraces the sayan sankranti is also restored.How do we get the > power > > > to shift the names like this. This is making use of the sayan system, which gives us the right to shift the names.In this way we go on coordinating the epochal nirayan sankranti with the sayan sankrantis every 2150 years, and authorised them to represent the sayan sankranti, which is the present practice. > > From the story which was narrated, this authority is given to Vishnu (or the nirayan sakranti) by Shiva( fullmoon) and Brahma (or sayan sakranti) does not get that right.Brahma is the pole star, Vishnu is the sun.Thus solar nirayan sankranti gets the right to represent the full moon(shiva) i.e. to get worshipped, but the sayn sankranti does not get that right.This is our present practice too.Only calculation may be done on the basis of the sayan sakranti.> > Have I been able to clarify? Please reply.thank you,> > Sincerely yours,> > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ...>> > To: > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:11:24 PM> > Re: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Dear Kaul saheb,> > I feel my previous reply was not to the point.Please let me express my viewpoint about sayan and nirayan.You will agree that when the two sankrantis are at the same point as in the beginning, it is the same wether we say sayan or nirayan.They have the same meaning.In the same way with respect to festivals if both the sankranits are within the same fullmoon zone we do not have to bother wether it is sayan or nirayn, because to that fullmon both the sayana and the nirayan sankranits are meeting it, as it were, it is at the same point as in the beginning.This realisation is important.Sayan and nirayan meeting at the same solar date occurs only may be one year (or for a few years they are not distinguishable) .But sayan and nirayan value for tithi is effective not only one or a few years, but is > valid > > > for over 1000 years if considered on one side, and taking both sides it is valid even for 2000years.This is very important to understand.Most people do> not> > seem to understand that.> > Thus my claim is that during the vedanga jyotish period it was not sayan as many people are prone to think it was both sayan and nirayan at the same time.It was sayan and nirayan both at the same time even during the rashi period too, if understood in a special way.How is this possible?> > Now we have to come to understand nirayan sakranti with a special meaning.The special meaning is this, nirayan sankranti is the middle point of full moon zone. This is more exact meaning than the nirayan sankranit is as attached to a certain star.The fullmoon is attached to two or three nakshyatras and the nirayan sankranti is at the middle of the two or three nakshyatras as the middle of the fullmoon zone..To understand what I am trying to say,one should get the habit of knowing > > > that the sankranti and the fullmoon zone are at 180 degrees apart.for example mesh sanrkanti is opposite(or at 180 degrees) to the mid point of chitraa nakshyatara. this habit is very good to undertand the coordinated system of calender reform.It is necessary to know about the concept of integrated sakranti- fullmon zone.Here in Nepal we have made drawing of the 12 sankranti-full moon zones. they are named as 1.mesh sankranti- chaitra full moon zone 2.Vrish> > sankranti-Baisakh full moon zone etc etc.upto 12 sankranti-fullmoon zones.> > AS long as the sayan sakranti is within one full moon zone then the tropical and the sidereal sankrantis being within the same fullmoon have the dual meaning of it being both sayan and nirayan at the same time.may e I stop here.but i wil make it clearer next time.thanking you,> > Sincerely yours,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..>> > To: > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 6:52:13 PM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> > Namaskar!> > I am still out of town and will be back in Delhi on April 23. I am just tryinhg to catch with the backlog from my mobile phone internet, lest people consider me a spent force!> > However, the more I read your mails, the more amused I am! > > U can decide Vedic rashis being sayana or nirayana only after u can quote the Vedic mantras that talk of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis! There are no such curses in the Rik Jyotisham, Yajur Jyotisham or even Atharva Veda Parishishta, leave alone any of the Vedas! Thus Mesha etc. rashis are conspicuous by their absence from the Vedic lore!> > Some " Vedic astrologers " call Srimad Bhagavatam as Panchama Veda! They may be right! But when it comes to discussion about the nature of Rahsi in that Panchama Veda, they start saying blah, blah, blah! > > > What types of rashis are in the Puranas will be clear from 1999b.doc and also BVB6.doc. All those Pauranic rashis are so called sayana!> > Personally, I have yet to find any mention of any so called nirayana Rashichakra in any of the Puranas or even the Sidhantas! If u have come across such references, pl. do enlighten me!> > With regards,> > A K Kaul> > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Prashant Pandeyji,> > > <But for Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).>> > > > > > For your devotion to your dharma, I want to tell you a famous story of our dharma explaining the importance and limitation of sayan sankranti and nirayan sankrantis.It is said once a quarrel started between Brahmaji and Vishnuji as to who was the greater between them.The quarrel went unsettled for ten thousand divya varsha.Then suddenly there appeard a flame of > > > light between them and both were surprised to see this third thing appearing.They were curious toknow waht it was. Branhma anted to find where its top as and flew upwards and vishunu wanted to find its rootor bottom and went downwards..Later Vishnu appeared saying he could not find the bottom.Then Brhama appeared saying he found the top and brought with him witnesses one of which was the kamadhenu cow.Now shiva appeared efore them and said,Brahama told al lie saying he found the top without findngg it, so he shall not be worshippeed. but because Vishnu admeiitted the truth, he will b> > > worshipped.Theyn say taht is the reason why we have no temple towordhip Brahmaji.> > > Here follows the astrological meaning of the story.Brahma is pole star or north star.Vishnu is the sun whom we call Surya narayan.The pole star is high in the sky above the north pole.> > > From the pole star looking down we see the earth, which is also known as the cow, > > > kamadhenu.Thus looking from the earth or north pole up towards the sky,the pole star is apparently seen as the top of the sky.But the truth is that the lunar pole or the centre of the lunar orbit ie. bary centre is the actual top, which is Shiva himself.Now we should know that the sayan sankranti is related to the pole star or its postion. The nirayan sankranti is related to the sun and the solar sankranti.This is why we give importance to the nirayan sankranit and not to the sayan sankranti for religious purpose and also in astrology, although we take the sayan positon for the actual calculations of the heavenly bodies etc.> > > I hope I have expresssed what I wanted to say.> > > thanking you,> > > Sincerely yours,> > > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > Prashant Pandey <praspandey@ ....>> > > HinduCalendar> > > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:18:15 AM> > > Subject: > [HinduCalendar] > > > Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I recently heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of their festivals..This is what worries me..>> > > > > > yeahoooo> > > > > > ting ding ding ding ding !> > > > > > Sirji this is the reality of our HINDU DHARMA. Believe me!> > > > > > We had tropical calendar in past, this our Dharma Grantha says.That is our ancient Vedic Calendar in true sense.> > > > > > Sir for your kind information south indian's are best in astrology and about knowing the ancient facts of Hindu Dharma.> > > > > > I was also aware that South Indians will start this reform and will reinstate our vedic calendar because they are the best, and they have courage.> > > > > > All naadi astrological works are from south india.Thy have done beautifull research, no doubt, i should say they are best in the world in astrology.> > > > > > We can abuse Kaulji but he is correct in his > > > research.S B Dixit, i think also South Indian, he has also said same thing and now in South India, some temples have reinstaed the Vedic Calendar.Good News!> > > > > > I am also also ardent follower of Nirayan (Sidereal) sytem(also of tropical).> > > > > > But for Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).> > > > > > Thanks again for Good News!> > > > > > Now i am happy and can sleep well.> > > > > > Regs,> > > Prashant Pandey> > > > > > Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com, Prashant <praspandey@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Nairji,> > > > As you suggest?I stop here, since you are irritated unnecessarily without searching for the truth.But let me remind you that I am not in favoour of pure sayan system as you understand.? I want to protect and presearve?the nirayan system in a reseasonble way.The reason?I want to do this?is because sayan is trying to > > > overcome our nirayan culture..I recently heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of their festivals.This is what worries me.Well if you want them to increase and increase, it is upto you.You may please check from Robert wilkinson of the WAves forum, if it is true or not.Also know that Mr.Kaul has?said both sayan and nirayan Niradhar.Any way, at present I am in no mood to continue with this subject here either. Thanking you,?I say goodbye,> > > > ?sincerely yours,> > > > Hari Malla.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@ >> > > > vedic astrology@ . com> > > > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:48:49 PM> > > > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@ . com, " sunil nair " > > > > <astro_tellerkerala > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > dear hari malla ji and sreenadh ji> > > > > > > > malla ji says shri kaul ji is ready to change his attitude or may b> > > > malla ji can make it happen ,kaul jis confessions and conversion are> > > > always welcome> > > > > > > > But the problem wont end there> > > > > > > > First of all he shud decide/agree what is Hindu astrological> > > > -astronomical concept and he shud discard his support for sayana western> > > > zodiacs and praising of their contributions .His calendrical concepts> > > > are based on a moving vishuva bindu ,so the rasi belt ( the path ) moves> > > > with the changes in vishuva bindu which is western concept not indian> > > > jyothishchakra ( hindu /baudha /jaina /charvaka etc ) .indian concept> > > > is based on nakshtra and fixed point of meshadi and aswinadi aramba> > > > chart> > > > > > > > ,if malla ji thinks it is varahamihira strted it i think he is wrong> > > > ,pls refer parasara hora ,chapter 3 > > > shloka numbrs 3 to 7 ,nakshtrani> > > > grhanam ----- to meshadi namaka rasaya syu part .> > > > > > > > so for us rasi chakra is the path for grahas and nakshtras and other> > > > points required for a jyothichakra .And it has to b fixed one .And for> > > > us rasi and bhava is imp .lagna and Houses decide every thing and> > > > ownerships /shodasa vargas and all other mathematical points like ucha> > > > ,neecha and even gulika/mrityu sputa etc all r based on a fixed rasi> > > > chart .where as if we can use kaul's version then path is moving and> > > > grahas moving and nakshtras moving tho mathematicaly graha position ( i> > > > mean stithi ) point is same in both concepts which has diffrnt> > > > parameters ,so logicaly mathematicaly both may b correct apparently but> > > > cannot compromise because acccording his concept or supporting> > > > arguemnts will take us to think that the road and vehicles both r moving> > > > ( zodiac is moving back > and > > > grahas are moving forward ) .So when some> > > > one is travelling we hav to say delhi has come to him than he reached to> > > > delhi by road ,still the question of timing such purticular event in> > > > advance how it is possible when both r moving ??why we need to> > > > complicate every thing ??> > > > > > > > so i hope malla ji may revise his views .> > > > > > > > also according to vedic concept the vishnu nabhi is important in> > > > thinking abt creation of universe and here the moola nakshtra ( as it is> > > > base or root ) and jyeshta ( eldest one ) is also has to b considered as> > > > based on it all nakshtra concept is based than some one interpret some> > > > vedic mantras as kritikati naksktras in some time of vedic periods is> > > > the strting point ,it has diffrnt meaning may b ,and vishuva bindu> > > > cannot b a strting point when thinking abt creation of universe as it is> > > > the basis of rai chakra ( rahu -sikhi chakra )> > > > > > > > > > > > so many things accepted as vedic will b diffrnt frm kaulian argumnts> > > > and i dont think ther is any chance of reconciling both arguemnts .> > > > > > > > so he has only 2 choice ..either discard his arguemnts or go ahed> > > > without any use except name calling and a chance to call astrologers as> > > > frauds in the name of a impractical calender ,like wat he was doing for> > > > almost quarter century .> > > > > > > > let us forget abt he abused ancient rishies / acharyas and dharma gurus> > > > and sankaracharyas .Also haunting any one who is interested in astrology> > > > by gate crashing technics and guerrilla technics .> > > > > > > > rgrds sunil nair .> > > > > > > > Om shreem mahalaxmai namah .> > > > > > > > --- In ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Hari Malla ji,> > > > > //> Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most of us > > > lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.//> > > > > Sorry... I think this itself is the very thing he lacks! He is NOT> > > > > devoted to the purpose of calendar reform, but just to the his> > > > roadside> > > > > rowdy bad mouth attitude against astrologers and astrology alone. If> > > > > ever he been dedicated to the subject of Vedic calender reform even> > > > for> > > > > at least 3 months or so he would have prepared the the skeleton frame> > > > > work of the same, and also might have written good descriptive article> > > > > about its components, organization, co-relation, purpose etc. He is> > > > yet> > > > > to implement even these tasks, which a knowledeable individual who may> > > > > dedicate 3 months to this subject may do. This not only prove that he> > > > is> > > > > incapable, but also that he got NO DEVOTION to the purpose of vedic> > > > > calender reform. Mark it.> > > > > // I have requested him .... Hopefully > he > > > may agree....... I think it> > > > > may be worthwhile to talk and negotiate.// > > > > > Hopes are always good. Whether it be Sunil Nair ji, Sunil> > > > > Bhattacharjya ji or Me, we all once had a respect for this man, which> > > > we> > > > > all lost in due course during our repeated interactions with that foul> > > > > mouth, without constructive attitude and respect for the contributions> > > > > of our ancistors. You can have your turn, and wish you all the best in> > > > > your sincere efforts. > > > > > //If he comes to term with somethng which is commonly acceptable why> > > > not> > > > > go along with him?//> > > > > Yes, certainly if he wish he can join us and come along with. Or if> > > > > you wish you can join him and go along with. But the point is the> > > > > purpose of evey stream, school of knowledge and individuals differ and> > > > > the group is just a meeting place. The true contributions are always> > > > > done by > > > individuals and is individualistic. This being so - neither I> > > > > need the help of Kaul nor Kaul need the help of me. The same could be> > > > > true about the contibution of anyone with in this group or outside.> > > > > //After all we must divide our work.//> > > > > Have your ever tried it (especially related astrological research)?> > > > > And what was the result? What are the lessons you learned from that> > > > > experience? We all would be eager to know. If you have ever tried> > > > > the same, you would sure be able to answer those questions. But if you> > > > > haven't ever tried the same - then your advice does not hold any> > > > water.> > > > > Any way I am in support of that statement, but at times when it> > > > comes> > > > > to astrological research, I don't find anyone to divide my work with!> > > > > > > > > May be I may change this opinion as I see more sincere at the same> > > > time> > > > > knowledgeable > individuals. > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla> > > > > harimalla@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadhji,> > > > > > Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most of us lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.> > > > > After all we must divide our work.If he comes to term with somethng> > > > > which is commonly acceptable why not go along with him?> > > > > > I feel we can work something which harmonises all, which keeps up> > > > our> > > > > nirayan tradition and also correct the times of festivals..The rashis> > > > > must continue, as much of our religious literature and the present> > > > > jyotish system is based and has been written using them. I have> > > > > requested him not try to get rid of the rashis and also tolerate the> > > > > nirayan system in a coordinated fashion with the sayan system.> > > > > > > > > > Hopefully he may agree.I have not been in contact with him for some> > > > > time.Shree Sunil Bahatacharyaji, thinks he may not agree overnight.But> > > > I> > > > > think it may be worthwhile to talk and negotiate.thank you...> > > > > > Sincerely yours,> > > > > > Hari Malla> > > > >> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >> > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Dear all, I do not understand why do those who wish to bring in changes in the Calendar, do not take their agenda to the other Panchanga Makers who should be able to understand them better , rather than coming to astrologers who may not all be well versed in astronomy ? Why dont they have enough ammunitions to be able to convince their own community members ? Why is their gun laid on our shoulders and fired ? This is exactly like the Government opening de-additcion centres for those who are drowned in liquor, while simultaneously allowing the liquor manufactureres to continue selling. These people cant convince their own lot, but acting like meek mouses and looking upto us for succour. They dont have guts on their own to bring about the changes but want us to help them . Why should we ? What did they do for us astrologers instead of brandishing us with their Hate campaigns in their Forums which bears members like Sanat kumar Jain who earns money by selling books written on pitfalls of astrologers and astrology. They dont have enough knowledge to be able to convince the Government to allow them a new calendar so they want us to put our signatures on their incorrigble stuff. If they cant convince the other Panchanga makers or the Central Government then whose fault is this and where does the fault lies ? Obviously not with the astrologers ? How can we lend an ear and time to their theories when they have tried to disown Varahamihir and the other great ancestors of ours due to whom we are existing as astrologers today ? It is a great Irony. These gang members of the " Calendar reform " talk rot about the great science and those practising it, but yet come to these people only for support and help. Those who are really interested in proposing such a change should first disassociate themselves from the rotten among their community who have turned traitors to " Hindus " and " ancestors " and thereafter in a polite atmosphere, present their findings in an understanable language on why and how they wish to bring about such change and why should it be accepted. Scope must be given to unbiased discussions and arguments so that further facts are brought on the surface , rather than just one person playing his own bugle . Proofs and authentic validations must support their arguments, rather than just singing the same tune on and on. We are all open to changes but they must come from a respectable person/persons who have done a good study and can present their facts with strength of these. Bhaskar. , " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > > Respected Sirs, > > 1) What difference will it make to our conducting religious ceremonies > by changing the calendar dates? Would we become better human beings by > doing so ? Would our ceremonies then make us more happier ? Would Diwali > become more brighter by doing so ? Would Holi become more colourful ? > > 2) What difference will this change make to the astrologers ? Would > their predictions become more effective ? > > 3) We are already shifting the Raashis one sign backwards while > computing Horoscope for Predictive analysis including Nakshatras. . This > new change suggested by your goodself, how will it effect astrological > predictions ? > > 4) How can we say that at present the religious observances we practise, > are lame and not to the mark, and how can we prove this in actual > physical tangibles (Like the Hindu astrologers are able to prove so well > in their predictions when they deduct the ayanamsha value from the > Tropical longitudes) , and also how would you prove after effecting the > change through physical tangibles ? Except for the continous hollering > about wating to make changes through theoretical arguments and > discussions, show us the actual proof of the religious observances of > today as " lame " and how do you propose to make it " more developed " in > actual ? > > regards, > > Bhaskar. > > > > > , Hari Malla > harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for > the interest. > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original > requirement.Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these > factors no more meet simultaneously.Thus the need to reform it to its > original status. > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa > nakshyatra).Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish > intact. > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras). > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the > best type of people in the world. > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank > you, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari malla > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Cc: astrologyandremedies ; ancient indian astrology > > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > > Re: Calender reform > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and > other > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based > calender and > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > > 180 deg 3sec. > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious > requirements of any group or sect in India. > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at > a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical > co-ordinates. > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also > available. > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free > to do so. > > > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we > are now using most modern > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now > follow geocentric > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the > effect of Helio- centric > > co-ordinates. > > Regards, > > G.K.GOEL > > Ph: 09350311433 > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > > NEW DELHI-110 076 > > INDIA > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and > tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are > certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is > bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are > celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If > this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is > violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes > it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to > time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by > Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this > merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the > lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking > you ,I remain, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > > " harimalla@ " harimalla@ > > HinduCalendar > > Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:15:13 AM > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Prashanta Pandeyji, > > I think we have come to some serious decision making point.Upon this > point hinges the whole success and failure of our calendar reform > proposal.plese check the version of vedanga jyotish; it says, > > When the sun is dhanistha, the uttrayan, the month of maagha and the > sukla pakshya of tapa start together.. > > You will see that the date of tapa sukla pratipada means that tapa is > a lunar tropical month.Month of Maagha also means it is a lunar month, > with the full moon tied with maghaa nakshyatra.This is sideral. Thus the > lunar month defined here is both sidereal and tropical at the same time. > > This is also the reason why we have to compromise between sidereal and > tropical sytem.Lunar months are tropical and sideral both at the same > time. That is the reson why I propose 6 degrees ayanamsa to be still > there but niryan sankranti is to be brought near the tropical sankranti > for coordination of the two.You also know that our festivals are > celebrated by tithis.Thus we have to understand the behaviour of our > tithi and its month to solve our problem of calender reform. Thus there > is no escape but to compromise both tropical and sideral.. > > This was the intention of the story of Brahma and vishnu quarreling > with each other for a lo;ng time till finally they were coordinated by > Shivaji..Shivaji also said that vishnu is to be worshipped and not > brahma.This means we have to celebrate our festivals by nirayan sakranti > and not by sayan sankranti.But they must be witin the range of the same > full moon so Shiva can coordinate them.This coordiantion you have called > as compromise.I say it should be done, as it is our practice in the > past.thank you, > > Sincerely yours, > > Hari Malla > > > > HinduCalendar, " Prashant Pandey " <praspandey@ > ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > > > Sir in my view you are wrong in making your views but i respect your > efforts. > > > > > > Tapa, Tapasya can't be lunar. > > > > > > Regs, > > > Prashant Pandey > > > > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul saheb, > > > > I?have checked it in vedanga jyotish and it?is the sixth sloka and > it says the month of maagha and the sukla padkshya of tapa.Thus these > two refer to the same lunar month, tapa used for the pakshya and maagha > used for the name of the month.I understand tapa as old lunar month > denoting season, here tapa is used for pakshya andthus it can never be > soalr month.maagha also can never be solar because the full moon lis > linked to magghaa nskshyatra.Only lunar month have full moons.Thus both > tapa and maaagha are lunar.So tapa has been ussed for lunar seasonal > month or pakshya and maagha for the newly formed sidereal lunar month. > Thus one is seasonal and the other is sidereal.Not one as solar and the > other as lunar. > > > > Uttaryan? with sun at dhanishta is unmistakable, ?I agree.Since > only the lunar month and date?was there, the intention to fix the lunar > uttarayn date is also indicated, when it is said that at the same time? > magha month and tapa?sukla partipada (meanig maagha sukla pratipada) > occurs. > > > > Madhuschai Madhavaschai vasantikav ritu, means lunar vasanta.Those > days since only lunar months were there, one need not say lunar or > solar.That was the only type of month althoough the year was always > solar marked by teh solstice only.Solar year and lunar months are the > natural things in nature being true natural cycles.?That is, in my view, > why they had the adhimas system right from the beginning of the vedic > culture, to?match the lunar months?with the solar year.Solar months were > conveniently made? at 30 degrees each, later on, to approximate the > lunar months, with the help of the rashis.They were not in the > beginning. > > > > The vedic months could never be islamic- like because they always > had adhimases right from the beginning.They also had 19 or 38 or 95 year > cycles to control it further, the left overs.Thus we should never think > of having islamic type of?months.They had lunar seasons and lunar ayans > and lunar years.Moslems do not have lunar seasons and ayans.? > > > > More in my next mail. thanking you, > > > > Sincerelyyours, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > > > > hinducalendar > > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:06:21 AM > > > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,Namaskar! > > > > < To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read that > even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote for > solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been solar months, with > the same names as the lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same > names for two different things. > > > > > There is a mantra in the Vedanga Jyotisha, perhaps 5th mantra, > which states that when the sun and the moon conjoin in Danishtha, it is > Uttarayana, Tapah and Magha and a new five year yuga starts. Dikshit has > translated Tapah as season, but that would mean that there would be > twelve seasons instead of six seasons in a year. If Tapah is also taken > as the name of the lunar month instead of the solar month, then Magha > will have to be taken as a solar month, since Punarukti in the same > mantra is repugnant to the Vedic ethos..That means that Tapah is the > solar month of Shishira Ritu---and not of Greeshma ritu, as some > muladhara-walas would like us to believe! > > > > If u try to ascertain the longitudes of stars and also the tithi > etc. for January 1, 1400 BCE fropm Vasishtha and Mahesh/ganesh programs, > u will find that as on January 1, 1400 BCE, the New Moon was really > conjunct Dhanishtha star, it was also away by 270 degrees from the mean > equator and equinox of that date! That means it was really Utarayana as > well as a New Moon in Dhanishtha on that date!Similarly, there is a > mantra, perhaps seventh, in the same Vedanga Jyotisha which states that > from the day of Udagayana, days start increasing by ...prasthas. That > certainly means that by Udagayana, the VJ meant nothning but Uttarayana, > since it is only from that day that the day starts increasin as compared > to nights, Winter Solstice being the shortest day of the year. > > > > We also find references in the Yajurveda stating " madhuschai > madhavashchai vasantikav ritu.. " etc. U will find a lot of material in > 1999b.doc regarding the Vedic months being aligned to seasons. > > > > > > > > <The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many > reference are available about lunar months and the word maasa can mean > both moon and the month.> > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha is of an era of at least 1400 BCE. It is not an > exact astronomical work at all! The duration of a solar year as per that > work is 366 days, which is neither sidereal nor tropical! The > mothodology of calculating tithi etc. in that work is meant for > calculating mean tithis and nakshatras and not the true ones! The ending > moments of nakshatras and tithis etc. as per that work are thus not > accurate at all! However, they serve as a milepost for future > guidelines, and those guidelines are that the Vedic calendar was > seasonal, months were solar to start with and lunar synodic months were > pegged to the same.If we eliminate solar ingress of Madhu, Madhava etc. > and take both Madhu, Madhava as well as Chaitra, Vaishakha as lunar > synodic months, we will be left with something like an Islamic calendar! > > > > We cannot ignore the two solstices and equinoxes at any cost! They > have to be given some names! That is why the Vj states that the > Udagayana, the month of Tapah and Magha start simultaneously! There is > every possibility that the ancient astronomers of India were not that > adept in calculating the timings of exact phenomena of Uttarayana and > Dakshinayana or Vasanta and Hemanta Sampat! They could be plus/minus one > day or may be even more from the actual timings of such phenomena! > > > > I find references in the Puranas that it is difficult even for > yogis to determine the exact timings of ayanas and vishuvas. (Pl. see > 1999b..doc, rashi5.doc, BVB6.doc etc). It is a fact that on the day of > Uttarayana the sun is " stationary " for a nano-second before starting > coming down from the maximum Southern declination! Same is the case with > other ayana and sampat! The exact moments of those phenomena are for > nano-seconds! It may be easy to find the exact timings of those > phenomena with Xtreme Intel processors on the basis of data from > NASA/JPL these days, but for Acharya Lagadha of at least fifteenth > century BCE, that was a really difficult job! > > > > We have, therefore, to see the spirit instead of the letter of > such works and streamline our calendar in accordance with that spirit! > > > > > > > > <WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is > proved by vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the > solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control the > lunar months.> > > > > I am unable to get the drift of your statement! There cannot be an > adhi or kshyaya lunar masa unless and until they are compared to > something and that something is solar months! There can be a thirteenth > synodic lunar month as adhimasa in a year when there is a yardstick of > regular twelve months in that very year! And that yardstick is twelve > solar months of a seasonal year! Besides, it is not necessary that an > adhimasa will fall always on the day of Uttarayana! That just is next to > impossible! > > > > > > > > <It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipada > and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha> > > > > The year at the time of Vedanga Jyotisha started with Uttarayana. > And as already clarified, Acharya Lagadha had somehow determined a > particular year when the Udagayana coincided with Magha Shukla Paksha. > These days it is also a similar situation more or less---real Magha > Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon after Uttarayana, which is > also known as the month of Tapah. However, because of precession, > Uttarayana does not fall these days in Dhanishta but in an entirely > different nakshatra. > > > > <This itself shows the control was done by winter > solstice,uttaryan. the fact that this point remained uttarayan for over > one thoousand years show that it was nirayan too.> > > > > Why are u clining to the nirayana and sayana myths created by > jyotishis? How can Uttarayana be nirayana or sayana when it is a > seasonal phenomenon that has nothing to do with precession, leave alone > the so called ayanamsha? > > > > <Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poush > purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashis > as you say> > > > > That is exactly what is happening these days! Magha Shukla paksha > starts more or less one month after the start of real Magha Shukla > paksha since these days we are not celebrating the Vedic or Vedanga > Jyotisha Magha but Lahiri Magha! But then how does that justify our > celebrating all the festivals on wrong days? > > > > <Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.> > > > > What culture are you talking about? In the real Vedic culture, the > words like nirayana and sayana do not exist at all since we do not find > them in any of the Puranas, leave alone the Vedas! So what r u talking > about? Pl. do read my posts again! I have proved it with hundreds of > proofs that nirayana is really niradhar and so is sayana! But since the > solar months like Madhu, Madhava or the Vedic lunar Chaitra, Vaishkha > etc. are real astronomical phenomena, they are the only ones that are > the real halmarks of the real Vedic culture!In a nutshell, the more u > try to accommodate the so called Vedic jyotishis the more u will defeat > your own purpose! Pl., therefore, do come out of this stupor of nirayana > versus sayana mess and stop reapeating the same " 15 degrees forward and > fifteen degrees backward " theory again and again! > > > > With regards,A K Kaul > > > > PS I am still out of town and have talked about the VJ mantra from > my memory! Pl. do not impale me if there is some " typo " in the exact > references! > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > In HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> > wrote:>> Dear Kaul saheb,> To my knowlege vedic months were never > solar.I have read that even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide > the vedic quote for solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been > solar months, with the same names as the lunar ones.which is also > doubtful to have same names for two different things. The lunar months > were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are available about > lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the month..> WE > do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by > vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the > solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control the > lunar months.It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla > pratipada and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha.This itself > shows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the fact that > this > > > > point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show that it > was nirayan too.Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to > Poush purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of > rashis as you say.> Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our > culture.Also when the months were called as Chaitra, Baisakh,since they > were tied to nakshyatras, how can you say they were not nirayan?.Is > tying to nakshyatras not making it nirayan.Off course, th e lunar tithis > could be both nirayan and sayan simultaneously, for over a thousand > years as I have already explained in my previous mails.> Thanking you,I > remain> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla> > > > > ____________ _________ > _________ __> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > To: HinduCalendar@ > . com> Monday, April 20, 2009 12:26:37 PM> Subject: > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> > Namaskar!> Vedic solar months, whether u name them > > > > Tapah, Tapasya etc. or Magha, Phalguna etc. have absolutely > nothing to do with New and Full Moons. They have, on the other hand, > everything to do with the two equinoxes and solstices! That means that > Vedic solar months are directly related to seasons!> On the other hand, > it is the Vedic lunar synodic months that are dependent on solar months. > As and when there are more than one New Moon between two solar > ingresses, there is a lunar adhika masa! As and when there is no New > moon between two solar months, that is a kshyaya masa! > If u delink the > lunar synodic months from seasonal solar months, u will be following the > Hejira i.e. Muslim calendar! Since the real Vedic lunar months are > related to seasonal solar months, so called nirayana lunar months are > equally an Islamic calendar since those months are not related to > seasonal solar months but to Lahiri solar months!> > Now coming to the > nirayana versus sayana myth! Solar months are neither nirayana nor > > > > sayana, since that curse is meant only for Mesha, Vrisha etc. > rashis! In fact the nirayana myth has been created by Hindu jyotihis on > the basis of the most monstrous astronomical work viz. Surya Sidhanta by > Maya the mlechha! Those jyotishis had to invent an anti-nirayana myth > and they named that myth as sayana!> > Astronomically, there are no > Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, since the Rashichakra itself is an imaginary > belt! Its components can never be real since if the sum total of the > parts itself is imaginary, its ingredients are also imaginary! That > obivates the possibility of niryana-versus- sayana myth even > scientifically! > Regarding the Pauranic lore, whenever any Mesha, > Vrihsa etc. Rashis have been mentioned, they are all related to seasons! > (Pl. see npj3.doc, BVB6.doc, 1999b.doc). As such, even the Pauranic lore > does not talk of any so called nirayana curse!> " Vedic astrologers " > themselves are running after imaginary ayanamshas! There is no > > > > astrological work, except the fake Brihat Parasharis galore, that > has talked of any Ayanamsha myth! It is therefore a moot point as to > what Ayanamsha the authors of those wroks, right from Sphujidwaja' s > Yavana Jatakam through Brihat Jatakam and Uttarakalarta or Jataka > Paraijata or Manasagari etc. etc. to Mukunda Daivajnyas Triskanda > Jyotisha used since no work on predictive astrology has talked about any > ayanamsha!> As such, why are are clamouring for an imaginary will of the > wisp, which will only scuttle your own efforts for reforming the Hindu > calendar?> With regards,> A K Kaul> > HinduCalendar@ . > com, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Kaul Saheb,> > > namaskar!To continue my discussion,let us coin a new word.The authentic > nirayan sankranti.When a nirayan sankranti has the right to represent > the sayan sankranti, we may say it the authentic nirayan sankranti..If > it has no right then it is not authorised.how does the > > authority > > > > come? It is given by the full moon zone.If the connected full moon > zone embraces the sayan sankrani too, then that nirayan sankranti has > the authentic right to represent that sayan sankranti too.The present > makar sankanti had the authentic right to represent the sayan sankranti > till 1400 AD.The reseaon is til then the connected full moon the Poush > Purnima embraced the sayan sankranti every third year during its > fluctuation. So if the puranas say makar sankranti for uttaryan during > that period, it means the nirayan makar sankranti which had the > authentic right to represent the sayan uttaryan.It did not mean the > sayan uttarayan sankranti itself.This is proved by the practice too.We> > do> > magh snana till date on the nirayan sakranti.We cannot say it was > wrong to do so.Only the dead habit was carried over from the authentic > days to the present, when that authentication is no more.This may be > called as the inadvertant use of the custome. At present the > > > > authentic makaar sankranti is the present dhanu sankranti. Because > the present Mangsir purnima does embrace the sayan sankranti giving the > authentic representation to Dhanu sankranti, as nirayan uttarayan, being > situated at the middle of the zone of Mangsir purnima.Thus the need to > shift the name of Poush fullmoon to mangsir fullmoon, and the name of > makar sankranti to the present Dhanu sankranti .This shifting of the > name is to be done during calender reform process in the sayan fashion, > to uphold our dharma shastras, as suggested by SB Dixit.Then all > problems are solved.The rashis can continue to remain in the new positon > for another 15 00- 2000 years.These rashis may be called> > as the > epochal nirayan rashis.The old rashis as original rashis,as they are. > The authentic representation of the nirayan sankranti is also restored > by the new epochal rashis.The appropriate full moon which embraces the > sayan sankranti is also restored.How do we get the > > power > > > > to shift the names like this. This is making use of the sayan > system, which gives us the right to shift the names.In this way we go on > coordinating the epochal nirayan sankranti with the sayan sankrantis > every 2150 years, and authorised them to represent the sayan sankranti, > which is the present practice. > > From the story which was narrated, > this authority is given to Vishnu (or the nirayan sakranti) by Shiva( > fullmoon) and Brahma (or sayan sakranti) does not get that right.Brahma > is the pole star, Vishnu is the sun.Thus solar nirayan sankranti gets > the right to represent the full moon(shiva) i.e. to get worshipped, but > the sayn sankranti does not get that right.This is our present practice > too.Only calculation may be done on the basis of the sayan sakranti.> > > Have I been able to clarify? Please reply.thank you,> > Sincerely > yours,> > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ > __> > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ...>> > To: > > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 > 10:11:24 PM> > Re: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > Dear Kaul saheb,> > I feel my previous reply was not to the > point.Please let me express my viewpoint about sayan and nirayan.You > will agree that when the two sankrantis are at the same point as in the > beginning, it is the same wether we say sayan or nirayan.They have the > same meaning.In the same way with respect to festivals if both the > sankranits are within the same fullmoon zone we do not have to bother > wether it is sayan or nirayn, because to that fullmon both the sayana > and the nirayan sankranits are meeting it, as it were, it is at the same > point as in the beginning.This realisation is important.Sayan and > nirayan meeting at the same solar date occurs only may be one year (or > for a few years they are not distinguishable) .But sayan and nirayan > value for tithi is effective not only one or a few years, but is > > valid > > > > for over 1000 years if considered on one side, and taking both > sides it is valid even for 2000years.This is very important to > understand.Most people do> not> > seem to understand that.> > Thus my > claim is that during the vedanga jyotish period it was not sayan as many > people are prone to think it was both sayan and nirayan at the same > time.It was sayan and nirayan both at the same time even during the > rashi period too, if understood in a special way.How is this possible?> > > Now we have to come to understand nirayan sakranti with a special > meaning.The special meaning is this, nirayan sankranti is the middle > point of full moon zone. This is more exact meaning than the nirayan > sankranit is as attached to a certain star.The fullmoon is attached to > two or three nakshyatras and the nirayan sankranti is at the middle of > the two or three nakshyatras as the middle of the fullmoon zone..To > understand what I am trying to say,one should get the habit of knowing > > > > that the sankranti and the fullmoon zone are at 180 degrees > apart.for example mesh sanrkanti is opposite(or at 180 degrees) to the > mid point of chitraa nakshyatara. this habit is very good to undertand > the coordinated system of calender reform.It is necessary to know about > the concept of integrated sakranti- fullmon zone.Here in Nepal we have > made drawing of the 12 sankranti-full moon zones. they are named as > 1.mesh sankranti- chaitra full moon zone 2.Vrish> > sankranti-Baisakh > full moon zone etc etc.upto 12 sankranti-fullmoon zones.> > AS long as > the sayan sakranti is within one full moon zone then the tropical and > the sidereal sankrantis being within the same fullmoon have the dual > meaning of it being both sayan and nirayan at the same time.may e I stop > here.but i wil make it clearer next time.thanking you,> > Sincerely > yours,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ > __> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..>> > To: > > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 > 6:52:13 PM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> > Namaskar!> > I am still out of town and > will be back in Delhi on April 23. I am just tryinhg to catch with the > backlog from my mobile phone internet, lest people consider me a spent > force!> > However, the more I read your mails, the more amused I am! > > > U can decide Vedic rashis being sayana or nirayana only after u can > quote the Vedic mantras that talk of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis! There > are no such curses in the Rik Jyotisham, Yajur Jyotisham or even Atharva > Veda Parishishta, leave alone any of the Vedas! Thus Mesha etc. rashis > are conspicuous by their absence from the Vedic lore!> > Some " Vedic > astrologers " call Srimad Bhagavatam as Panchama Veda! They may be right! > But when it comes to discussion about the nature of Rahsi in that > Panchama Veda, they start saying blah, blah, blah! > > > > What types of rashis are in the Puranas will be clear from > 1999b.doc and also BVB6.doc. All those Pauranic rashis are so called > sayana!> > Personally, I have yet to find any mention of any so called > nirayana Rashichakra in any of the Puranas or even the Sidhantas! If u > have come across such references, pl. do enlighten me!> > With regards,> > > A K Kaul> > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla > <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Prashant Pandeyji,> > > <But for > Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay > for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).>> > > > > > For your devotion to your > dharma, I want to tell you a famous story of our dharma explaining the > importance and limitation of sayan sankranti and nirayan sankrantis.It > is said once a quarrel started between Brahmaji and Vishnuji as to who > was the greater between them.The quarrel went unsettled for ten thousand > divya varsha.Then suddenly there appeard a flame of > > > > light between them and both were surprised to see this third thing > appearing.They were curious toknow waht it was. Branhma anted to find > where its top as and flew upwards and vishunu wanted to find its rootor > bottom and went downwards..Later Vishnu appeared saying he could not > find the bottom.Then Brhama appeared saying he found the top and brought > with him witnesses one of which was the kamadhenu cow.Now shiva appeared > efore them and said,Brahama told al lie saying he found the top without > findngg it, so he shall not be worshippeed. but because Vishnu > admeiitted the truth, he will b> > > worshipped.Theyn say taht is the > reason why we have no temple towordhip Brahmaji.> > > Here follows the > astrological meaning of the story.Brahma is pole star or north > star.Vishnu is the sun whom we call Surya narayan.The pole star is high > in the sky above the north pole.> > > From the pole star looking down we > see the earth, which is also known as the cow, > > > > kamadhenu.Thus looking from the earth or north pole up towards the > sky,the pole star is apparently seen as the top of the sky.But the truth > is that the lunar pole or the centre of the lunar orbit ie. bary centre > is the actual top, which is Shiva himself.Now we should know that the > sayan sankranti is related to the pole star or its postion. The nirayan > sankranti is related to the sun and the solar sankranti.This is why we > give importance to the nirayan sankranit and not to the sayan sankranti > for religious purpose and also in astrology, although we take the sayan > positon for the actual calculations of the heavenly bodies etc.> > > I > hope I have expresssed what I wanted to say.> > > thanking you,> > > > Sincerely yours,> > > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > Prashant Pandey > <praspandey@ ....>> > > HinduCalendar> > > Sent: > Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:18:15 AM> > > Subject: > > [HinduCalendar] > > > > Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I recently > heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan system > for the celebration of their festivals..This is what worries me..>> > > > > > > yeahoooo> > > > > > ting ding ding ding ding !> > > > > > Sirji > this is the reality of our HINDU DHARMA. Believe me!> > > > > > We had > tropical calendar in past, this our Dharma Grantha says.That is our > ancient Vedic Calendar in true sense.> > > > > > Sir for your kind > information south indian's are best in astrology and about knowing the > ancient facts of Hindu Dharma.> > > > > > I was also aware that South > Indians will start this reform and will reinstate our vedic calendar > because they are the best, and they have courage.> > > > > > All naadi > astrological works are from south india.Thy have done beautifull > research, no doubt, i should say they are best in the world in > astrology.> > > > > > We can abuse Kaulji but he is correct in his > > > > research.S B Dixit, i think also South Indian, he has also said > same thing and now in South India, some temples have reinstaed the Vedic > Calendar.Good News!> > > > > > I am also also ardent follower of Nirayan > (Sidereal) sytem(also of tropical).> > > > > > But for Hindu Dharma, i > will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaray > dharm ke liye).> > > > > > Thanks again for Good News!> > > > > > Now i > am happy and can sleep well.> > > > > > Regs,> > > Prashant Pandey> > > > > > > Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com, > Prashant <praspandey@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Nairji,> > > > > As you suggest?I stop here, since you are irritated unnecessarily > without searching for the truth.But let me remind you that I am not in > favoour of pure sayan system as you understand.? I want to protect and > presearve?the nirayan system in a reseasonble way.The reason?I want to > do this?is because sayan is trying to > > > > overcome our nirayan culture..I recently heard that in Tamil nadu > 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of > their festivals.This is what worries me.Well if you want them to > increase and increase, it is upto you.You may please check from Robert > wilkinson of the WAves forum, if it is true or not.Also know that > Mr.Kaul has?said both sayan and nirayan Niradhar.Any way, at present I > am in no mood to continue with this subject here either. Thanking you,?I > say goodbye,> > > > ?sincerely yours,> > > > Hari Malla.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > > sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@ >> > > > vedic astrology@ > . com> > > > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:48:49 PM> > > > > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@ > . com, " sunil nair " > > > > <astro_tellerkerala > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > dear hari malla ji and sreenadh ji> > > > > > > > > malla ji says shri kaul ji is ready to change his attitude or may > b> > > > malla ji can make it happen ,kaul jis confessions and > conversion are> > > > always welcome> > > > > > > > But the problem wont > end there> > > > > > > > First of all he shud decide/agree what is Hindu > astrological> > > > -astronomical concept and he shud discard his > support for sayana western> > > > zodiacs and praising of their > contributions .His calendrical concepts> > > > are based on a moving > vishuva bindu ,so the rasi belt ( the path ) moves> > > > with the > changes in vishuva bindu which is western concept not indian> > > > > jyothishchakra ( hindu /baudha /jaina /charvaka etc ) .indian concept> > > > > is based on nakshtra and fixed point of meshadi and aswinadi aramba> > > > > chart> > > > > > > > ,if malla ji thinks it is varahamihira strted > it i think he is wrong> > > > ,pls refer parasara hora ,chapter 3 > > > > shloka numbrs 3 to 7 ,nakshtrani> > > > grhanam ----- to meshadi > namaka rasaya syu part .> > > > > > > > so for us rasi chakra is the > path for grahas and nakshtras and other> > > > points required for a > jyothichakra .And it has to b fixed one .And for> > > > us rasi and > bhava is imp .lagna and Houses decide every thing and> > > > ownerships > /shodasa vargas and all other mathematical points like ucha> > > > > ,neecha and even gulika/mrityu sputa etc all r based on a fixed rasi> > > > > chart .where as if we can use kaul's version then path is moving > and> > > > grahas moving and nakshtras moving tho mathematicaly graha > position ( i> > > > mean stithi ) point is same in both concepts which > has diffrnt> > > > parameters ,so logicaly mathematicaly both may b > correct apparently but> > > > cannot compromise because acccording his > concept or supporting> > > > arguemnts will take us to think that the > road and vehicles both r moving> > > > ( zodiac is moving back > > and > > > > grahas are moving forward ) .So when some> > > > one is travelling > we hav to say delhi has come to him than he reached to> > > > delhi by > road ,still the question of timing such purticular event in> > > > > advance how it is possible when both r moving ??why we need to> > > > > complicate every thing ??> > > > > > > > so i hope malla ji may revise > his views .> > > > > > > > also according to vedic concept the vishnu > nabhi is important in> > > > thinking abt creation of universe and here > the moola nakshtra ( as it is> > > > base or root ) and jyeshta ( eldest > one ) is also has to b considered as> > > > based on it all nakshtra > concept is based than some one interpret some> > > > vedic mantras as > kritikati naksktras in some time of vedic periods is> > > > the strting > point ,it has diffrnt meaning may b ,and vishuva bindu> > > > cannot b a > strting point when thinking abt creation of universe as it is> > > > the > basis of rai chakra ( rahu -sikhi chakra )> > > > > > > > > > > > > > so many things accepted as vedic will b diffrnt frm > kaulian argumnts> > > > and i dont think ther is any chance of > reconciling both arguemnts .> > > > > > > > so he has only 2 choice > .either discard his arguemnts or go ahed> > > > without any use except > name calling and a chance to call astrologers as> > > > frauds in the > name of a impractical calender ,like wat he was doing for> > > > almost > quarter century .> > > > > > > > let us forget abt he abused ancient > rishies / acharyas and dharma gurus> > > > and sankaracharyas .Also > haunting any one who is interested in astrology> > > > by gate crashing > technics and guerrilla technics .> > > > > > > > rgrds sunil nair .> > > > > > > > > Om shreem mahalaxmai namah .> > > > > > > > --- In > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > > sreesog@ > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Hari Malla ji,> > > > > //> Thank you for > the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most of us > > > > lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.//> > > > > > Sorry... I think this itself is the very thing he lacks! He is NOT> > > > > > devoted to the purpose of calendar reform, but just to the his> > > > > roadside> > > > > rowdy bad mouth attitude against astrologers and > astrology alone. If> > > > > ever he been dedicated to the subject of > Vedic calender reform even> > > > for> > > > > at least 3 months or so > he would have prepared the the skeleton frame> > > > > work of the same, > and also might have written good descriptive article> > > > > about its > components, organization, co-relation, purpose etc. He is> > > > yet> > > > > > to implement even these tasks, which a knowledeable individual who > may> > > > > dedicate 3 months to this subject may do. This not only > prove that he> > > > is> > > > > incapable, but also that he got NO > DEVOTION to the purpose of vedic> > > > > calender reform. Mark it.> > > > > > // I have requested him .... Hopefully > > he > > > > may agree....... I think it> > > > > may be worthwhile to talk and > negotiate.// > > > > > Hopes are always good. Whether it be Sunil > Nair ji, Sunil> > > > > Bhattacharjya ji or Me, we all once had a > respect for this man, which> > > > we> > > > > all lost in due course > during our repeated interactions with that foul> > > > > mouth, without > constructive attitude and respect for the contributions> > > > > of our > ancistors. You can have your turn, and wish you all the best in> > > > > > your sincere efforts. > > > > > //If he comes to term with somethng > which is commonly acceptable why> > > > not> > > > > go along with > him?//> > > > > Yes, certainly if he wish he can join us and come along > with. Or if> > > > > you wish you can join him and go along with. But > the point is the> > > > > purpose of evey stream, school of knowledge > and individuals differ and> > > > > the group is just a meeting place. > The true contributions are always> > > > > done by > > > > individuals and is individualistic. This being so - neither I> > > > > > need the help of Kaul nor Kaul need the help of me. The same could > be> > > > > true about the contibution of anyone with in this group or > outside.> > > > > //After all we must divide our work.//> > > > > Have > your ever tried it (especially related astrological research)?> > > > > > And what was the result? What are the lessons you learned from that> > > > > > experience? We all would be eager to know. If you have ever > tried> > > > > the same, you would sure be able to answer those > questions. But if you> > > > > haven't ever tried the same - then your > advice does not hold any> > > > water.> > > > > Any way I am in > support of that statement, but at times when it> > > > comes> > > > > to > astrological research, I don't find anyone to divide my work with!> > > > > > > > > > May be I may change this opinion as I see more sincere at > the same> > > > time> > > > > knowledgeable > > individuals. > > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla> > > > > > harimalla@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadhji,> > > > > > > Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > > most of us lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.> > > > > > After all we must divide our work.If he comes to term with > somethng> > > > > which is commonly acceptable why not go along with > him?> > > > > > I feel we can work something which harmonises all, which > keeps up> > > > our> > > > > nirayan tradition and also correct the > times of festivals..The rashis> > > > > must continue, as much of our > religious literature and the present> > > > > jyotish system is based > and has been written using them. I have> > > > > requested him not try > to get rid of the rashis and also tolerate the> > > > > nirayan system > in a coordinated fashion with the sayan system.> > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully he may agree.I have not been in contact with him for > some> > > > > time.Shree Sunil Bahatacharyaji, thinks he may not agree > overnight.But> > > > I> > > > > think it may be worthwhile to talk and > negotiate.thank you...> > > > > > Sincerely yours,> > > > > > Hari > Malla> > > > >> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of > this message have been removed]> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message > ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to > your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> > > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >> > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click here. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Respected Sirs, What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ? If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in future too ? regards, Bhaskar. , Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: > > Dear Goelji, > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for the interest. > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original requirement.Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these factors no more meet simultaneously.Thus the need to reform it to its original status. > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra).Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish intact. > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras). > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the best type of people in the world. > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank you, > sincerely yours, > Hari malla > > > > ________________________________ > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937 > Hari Malla harimalla > Cc: astrologyandremedies ; ancient indian astrology > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > Re: Calender reform > > > Dear Friend, > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and other > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based calender and > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > 180 deg 3sec. > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious requirements of any group or sect in India. > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical co-ordinates. > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also available. > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free to do so. > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we are now using most modern > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now follow geocentric > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the effect of Helio- centric > co-ordinates. > Regards, > G.K.GOEL > Ph: 09350311433 > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > NEW DELHI-110 076 > INDIA > > > > > ________________________________ > Hari Malla harimalla > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937 > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > Dear Goelji, > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking you ,I remain, > sincerely yours, > Hari Malla > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > " harimalla " harimalla > HinduCalendar > Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:15:13 AM > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi Dear Prashanta Pandeyji, > I think we have come to some serious decision making point.Upon this point hinges the whole success and failure of our calendar reform proposal.plese check the version of vedanga jyotish; it says, > When the sun is dhanistha, the uttrayan, the month of maagha and the sukla pakshya of tapa start together.. > You will see that the date of tapa sukla pratipada means that tapa is a lunar tropical month.Month of Maagha also means it is a lunar month, with the full moon tied with maghaa nakshyatra.This is sideral. Thus the lunar month defined here is both sidereal and tropical at the same time. > This is also the reason why we have to compromise between sidereal and tropical sytem.Lunar months are tropical and sideral both at the same time. That is the reson why I propose 6 degrees ayanamsa to be still there but niryan sankranti is to be brought near the tropical sankranti for coordination of the two.You also know that our festivals are celebrated by tithis.Thus we have to understand the behaviour of our tithi and its month to solve our problem of calender reform. Thus there is no escape but to compromise both tropical and sideral.. > This was the intention of the story of Brahma and vishnu quarreling with each other for a lo;ng time till finally they were coordinated by Shivaji..Shivaji also said that vishnu is to be worshipped and not brahma.This means we have to celebrate our festivals by nirayan sakranti and not by sayan sankranti.But they must be witin the range of the same full moon so Shiva can coordinate them.This coordiantion you have called as compromise.I say it should be done, as it is our practice in the past.thank you, > Sincerely yours, > Hari Malla > > HinduCalendar, " Prashant Pandey " <praspandey@ ....> wrote: > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > Sir in my view you are wrong in making your views but i respect your efforts. > > > > Tapa, Tapasya can't be lunar. > > > > Regs, > > Prashant Pandey > > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kaul saheb, > > > I?have checked it in vedanga jyotish and it?is the sixth sloka and it says the month of maagha and the sukla padkshya of tapa.Thus these two refer to the same lunar month, tapa used for the pakshya and maagha used for the name of the month.I understand tapa as old lunar month denoting season, here tapa is used for pakshya andthus it can never be soalr month.maagha also can never be solar because the full moon lis linked to magghaa nskshyatra.Only lunar month have full moons.Thus both tapa and maaagha are lunar.So tapa has been ussed for lunar seasonal month or pakshya and maagha for the newly formed sidereal lunar month. Thus one is seasonal and the other is sidereal.Not one as solar and the other as lunar. > > > Uttaryan? with sun at dhanishta is unmistakable, ?I agree.Since only the lunar month and date?was there, the intention to fix the lunar uttarayn date is also indicated, when it is said that at the same time? magha month and tapa?sukla partipada (meanig maagha sukla pratipada) occurs. > > > Madhuschai Madhavaschai vasantikav ritu, means lunar vasanta.Those days since only lunar months were there, one need not say lunar or solar.That was the only type of month althoough the year was always solar marked by teh solstice only.Solar year and lunar months are the natural things in nature being true natural cycles.?That is, in my view, why they had the adhimas system right from the beginning of the vedic culture, to?match the lunar months?with the solar year.Solar months were conveniently made? at 30 degrees each, later on, to approximate the lunar months, with the help of the rashis.They were not in the beginning. > > > The vedic months could never be islamic- like because they always had adhimases right from the beginning.They also had 19 or 38 or 95 year cycles to control it further, the left overs.Thus we should never think of having islamic type of?months.They had lunar seasons and lunar ayans and lunar years.Moslems do not have lunar seasons and ayans.? > > > More in my next mail. thanking you, > > > Sincerelyyours, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > > > hinducalendar > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:06:21 AM > > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,Namaskar! > > > < To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read that even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote for solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been solar months, with the same names as the lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same names for two different things. > > > > There is a mantra in the Vedanga Jyotisha, perhaps 5th mantra, which states that when the sun and the moon conjoin in Danishtha, it is Uttarayana, Tapah and Magha and a new five year yuga starts. Dikshit has translated Tapah as season, but that would mean that there would be twelve seasons instead of six seasons in a year. If Tapah is also taken as the name of the lunar month instead of the solar month, then Magha will have to be taken as a solar month, since Punarukti in the same mantra is repugnant to the Vedic ethos..That means that Tapah is the solar month of Shishira Ritu---and not of Greeshma ritu, as some muladhara-walas would like us to believe! > > > If u try to ascertain the longitudes of stars and also the tithi etc. for January 1, 1400 BCE fropm Vasishtha and Mahesh/ganesh programs, u will find that as on January 1, 1400 BCE, the New Moon was really conjunct Dhanishtha star, it was also away by 270 degrees from the mean equator and equinox of that date! That means it was really Utarayana as well as a New Moon in Dhanishtha on that date!Similarly, there is a mantra, perhaps seventh, in the same Vedanga Jyotisha which states that from the day of Udagayana, days start increasing by ...prasthas. That certainly means that by Udagayana, the VJ meant nothning but Uttarayana, since it is only from that day that the day starts increasin as compared to nights, Winter Solstice being the shortest day of the year. > > > We also find references in the Yajurveda stating " madhuschai madhavashchai vasantikav ritu.. " etc. U will find a lot of material in 1999b.doc regarding the Vedic months being aligned to seasons. > > > > > > <The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are available about lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the month.> > > > Vedanga Jyotisha is of an era of at least 1400 BCE. It is not an exact astronomical work at all! The duration of a solar year as per that work is 366 days, which is neither sidereal nor tropical! The mothodology of calculating tithi etc. in that work is meant for calculating mean tithis and nakshatras and not the true ones! The ending moments of nakshatras and tithis etc. as per that work are thus not accurate at all! However, they serve as a milepost for future guidelines, and those guidelines are that the Vedic calendar was seasonal, months were solar to start with and lunar synodic months were pegged to the same.If we eliminate solar ingress of Madhu, Madhava etc. and take both Madhu, Madhava as well as Chaitra, Vaishakha as lunar synodic months, we will be left with something like an Islamic calendar! > > > We cannot ignore the two solstices and equinoxes at any cost! They have to be given some names! That is why the Vj states that the Udagayana, the month of Tapah and Magha start simultaneously! There is every possibility that the ancient astronomers of India were not that adept in calculating the timings of exact phenomena of Uttarayana and Dakshinayana or Vasanta and Hemanta Sampat! They could be plus/minus one day or may be even more from the actual timings of such phenomena! > > > I find references in the Puranas that it is difficult even for yogis to determine the exact timings of ayanas and vishuvas. (Pl. see 1999b..doc, rashi5.doc, BVB6.doc etc). It is a fact that on the day of Uttarayana the sun is " stationary " for a nano-second before starting coming down from the maximum Southern declination! Same is the case with other ayana and sampat! The exact moments of those phenomena are for nano-seconds! It may be easy to find the exact timings of those phenomena with Xtreme Intel processors on the basis of data from NASA/JPL these days, but for Acharya Lagadha of at least fifteenth century BCE, that was a really difficult job! > > > We have, therefore, to see the spirit instead of the letter of such works and streamline our calendar in accordance with that spirit! > > > > > > <WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control the lunar months.> > > > I am unable to get the drift of your statement! There cannot be an adhi or kshyaya lunar masa unless and until they are compared to something and that something is solar months! There can be a thirteenth synodic lunar month as adhimasa in a year when there is a yardstick of regular twelve months in that very year! And that yardstick is twelve solar months of a seasonal year! Besides, it is not necessary that an adhimasa will fall always on the day of Uttarayana! That just is next to impossible! > > > > > > <It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipada and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha> > > > The year at the time of Vedanga Jyotisha started with Uttarayana. And as already clarified, Acharya Lagadha had somehow determined a particular year when the Udagayana coincided with Magha Shukla Paksha. These days it is also a similar situation more or less---real Magha Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon after Uttarayana, which is also known as the month of Tapah. However, because of precession, Uttarayana does not fall these days in Dhanishta but in an entirely different nakshatra. > > > <This itself shows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the fact that this point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show that it was nirayan too.> > > > Why are u clining to the nirayana and sayana myths created by jyotishis? How can Uttarayana be nirayana or sayana when it is a seasonal phenomenon that has nothing to do with precession, leave alone the so called ayanamsha? > > > <Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poush purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashis as you say> > > > That is exactly what is happening these days! Magha Shukla paksha starts more or less one month after the start of real Magha Shukla paksha since these days we are not celebrating the Vedic or Vedanga Jyotisha Magha but Lahiri Magha! But then how does that justify our celebrating all the festivals on wrong days? > > > <Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.> > > > What culture are you talking about? In the real Vedic culture, the words like nirayana and sayana do not exist at all since we do not find them in any of the Puranas, leave alone the Vedas! So what r u talking about? Pl. do read my posts again! I have proved it with hundreds of proofs that nirayana is really niradhar and so is sayana! But since the solar months like Madhu, Madhava or the Vedic lunar Chaitra, Vaishkha etc. are real astronomical phenomena, they are the only ones that are the real halmarks of the real Vedic culture!In a nutshell, the more u try to accommodate the so called Vedic jyotishis the more u will defeat your own purpose! Pl., therefore, do come out of this stupor of nirayana versus sayana mess and stop reapeating the same " 15 degrees forward and fifteen degrees backward " theory again and again! > > > With regards,A K Kaul > > > PS I am still out of town and have talked about the VJ mantra from my memory! Pl. do not impale me if there is some " typo " in the exact references! > > > AKK > > > > > > In HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> wrote:>> Dear Kaul saheb,> To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read that even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote for solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been solar months, with the same names as the lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same names for two different things. The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are available about lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the month..> WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control the lunar months.It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipada and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha.This itself shows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the fact that this > > > point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show that it was nirayan too.Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poush purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashis as you say.> Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.Also when the months were called as Chaitra, Baisakh,since they were tied to nakshyatras, how can you say they were not nirayan?.Is tying to nakshyatras not making it nirayan.Off course, th e lunar tithis could be both nirayan and sayan simultaneously, for over a thousand years as I have already explained in my previous mails.> Thanking you,I remain> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > HinduCalendar@ . com> Monday, April 20, 2009 12:26:37 PM> Subject: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> Namaskar!> Vedic solar months, whether u name them > > > Tapah, Tapasya etc. or Magha, Phalguna etc. have absolutely nothing to do with New and Full Moons. They have, on the other hand, everything to do with the two equinoxes and solstices! That means that Vedic solar months are directly related to seasons!> On the other hand, it is the Vedic lunar synodic months that are dependent on solar months. As and when there are more than one New Moon between two solar ingresses, there is a lunar adhika masa! As and when there is no New moon between two solar months, that is a kshyaya masa! > If u delink the lunar synodic months from seasonal solar months, u will be following the Hejira i.e. Muslim calendar! Since the real Vedic lunar months are related to seasonal solar months, so called nirayana lunar months are equally an Islamic calendar since those months are not related to seasonal solar months but to Lahiri solar months!> > Now coming to the nirayana versus sayana myth! Solar months are neither nirayana nor > > > sayana, since that curse is meant only for Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis! In fact the nirayana myth has been created by Hindu jyotihis on the basis of the most monstrous astronomical work viz. Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha! Those jyotishis had to invent an anti-nirayana myth and they named that myth as sayana!> > Astronomically, there are no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, since the Rashichakra itself is an imaginary belt! Its components can never be real since if the sum total of the parts itself is imaginary, its ingredients are also imaginary! That obivates the possibility of niryana-versus- sayana myth even scientifically! > Regarding the Pauranic lore, whenever any Mesha, Vrihsa etc. Rashis have been mentioned, they are all related to seasons! (Pl. see npj3.doc, BVB6.doc, 1999b.doc). As such, even the Pauranic lore does not talk of any so called nirayana curse!> " Vedic astrologers " themselves are running after imaginary ayanamshas! There is no > > > astrological work, except the fake Brihat Parasharis galore, that has talked of any Ayanamsha myth! It is therefore a moot point as to what Ayanamsha the authors of those wroks, right from Sphujidwaja' s Yavana Jatakam through Brihat Jatakam and Uttarakalarta or Jataka Paraijata or Manasagari etc. etc. to Mukunda Daivajnyas Triskanda Jyotisha used since no work on predictive astrology has talked about any ayanamsha!> As such, why are are clamouring for an imaginary will of the wisp, which will only scuttle your own efforts for reforming the Hindu calendar?> With regards,> A K Kaul> > HinduCalendar@ . com, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Kaul Saheb,> > namaskar!To continue my discussion,let us coin a new word.The authentic nirayan sankranti.When a nirayan sankranti has the right to represent the sayan sankranti, we may say it the authentic nirayan sankranti..If it has no right then it is not authorised.how does the > authority > > > come? It is given by the full moon zone.If the connected full moon zone embraces the sayan sankrani too, then that nirayan sankranti has the authentic right to represent that sayan sankranti too.The present makar sankanti had the authentic right to represent the sayan sankranti till 1400 AD.The reseaon is til then the connected full moon the Poush Purnima embraced the sayan sankranti every third year during its fluctuation. So if the puranas say makar sankranti for uttaryan during that period, it means the nirayan makar sankranti which had the authentic right to represent the sayan uttaryan.It did not mean the sayan uttarayan sankranti itself.This is proved by the practice too.We> do> > magh snana till date on the nirayan sakranti.We cannot say it was wrong to do so.Only the dead habit was carried over from the authentic days to the present, when that authentication is no more.This may be called as the inadvertant use of the custome. At present the > > > authentic makaar sankranti is the present dhanu sankranti. Because the present Mangsir purnima does embrace the sayan sankranti giving the authentic representation to Dhanu sankranti, as nirayan uttarayan, being situated at the middle of the zone of Mangsir purnima.Thus the need to shift the name of Poush fullmoon to mangsir fullmoon, and the name of makar sankranti to the present Dhanu sankranti .This shifting of the name is to be done during calender reform process in the sayan fashion, to uphold our dharma shastras, as suggested by SB Dixit.Then all problems are solved.The rashis can continue to remain in the new positon for another 15 00- 2000 years.These rashis may be called> > as the epochal nirayan rashis.The old rashis as original rashis,as they are. The authentic representation of the nirayan sankranti is also restored by the new epochal rashis.The appropriate full moon which embraces the sayan sankranti is also restored.How do we get the > power > > > to shift the names like this. This is making use of the sayan system, which gives us the right to shift the names.In this way we go on coordinating the epochal nirayan sankranti with the sayan sankrantis every 2150 years, and authorised them to represent the sayan sankranti, which is the present practice. > > From the story which was narrated, this authority is given to Vishnu (or the nirayan sakranti) by Shiva( fullmoon) and Brahma (or sayan sakranti) does not get that right.Brahma is the pole star, Vishnu is the sun.Thus solar nirayan sankranti gets the right to represent the full moon(shiva) i.e. to get worshipped, but the sayn sankranti does not get that right.This is our present practice too.Only calculation may be done on the basis of the sayan sakranti.> > Have I been able to clarify? Please reply.thank you,> > Sincerely yours,> > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ...>> > To: > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:11:24 PM> > Re: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Dear Kaul saheb,> > I feel my previous reply was not to the point.Please let me express my viewpoint about sayan and nirayan.You will agree that when the two sankrantis are at the same point as in the beginning, it is the same wether we say sayan or nirayan.They have the same meaning.In the same way with respect to festivals if both the sankranits are within the same fullmoon zone we do not have to bother wether it is sayan or nirayn, because to that fullmon both the sayana and the nirayan sankranits are meeting it, as it were, it is at the same point as in the beginning.This realisation is important.Sayan and nirayan meeting at the same solar date occurs only may be one year (or for a few years they are not distinguishable) .But sayan and nirayan value for tithi is effective not only one or a few years, but is > valid > > > for over 1000 years if considered on one side, and taking both sides it is valid even for 2000years.This is very important to understand.Most people do> not> > seem to understand that.> > Thus my claim is that during the vedanga jyotish period it was not sayan as many people are prone to think it was both sayan and nirayan at the same time.It was sayan and nirayan both at the same time even during the rashi period too, if understood in a special way.How is this possible?> > Now we have to come to understand nirayan sakranti with a special meaning.The special meaning is this, nirayan sankranti is the middle point of full moon zone. This is more exact meaning than the nirayan sankranit is as attached to a certain star.The fullmoon is attached to two or three nakshyatras and the nirayan sankranti is at the middle of the two or three nakshyatras as the middle of the fullmoon zone..To understand what I am trying to say,one should get the habit of knowing > > > that the sankranti and the fullmoon zone are at 180 degrees apart.for example mesh sanrkanti is opposite(or at 180 degrees) to the mid point of chitraa nakshyatara. this habit is very good to undertand the coordinated system of calender reform.It is necessary to know about the concept of integrated sakranti- fullmon zone.Here in Nepal we have made drawing of the 12 sankranti-full moon zones. they are named as 1.mesh sankranti- chaitra full moon zone 2.Vrish> > sankranti-Baisakh full moon zone etc etc.upto 12 sankranti-fullmoon zones.> > AS long as the sayan sakranti is within one full moon zone then the tropical and the sidereal sankrantis being within the same fullmoon have the dual meaning of it being both sayan and nirayan at the same time.may e I stop here.but i wil make it clearer next time.thanking you,> > Sincerely yours,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..>> > To: > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 6:52:13 PM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> > Namaskar!> > I am still out of town and will be back in Delhi on April 23. I am just tryinhg to catch with the backlog from my mobile phone internet, lest people consider me a spent force!> > However, the more I read your mails, the more amused I am! > > U can decide Vedic rashis being sayana or nirayana only after u can quote the Vedic mantras that talk of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis! There are no such curses in the Rik Jyotisham, Yajur Jyotisham or even Atharva Veda Parishishta, leave alone any of the Vedas! Thus Mesha etc. rashis are conspicuous by their absence from the Vedic lore!> > Some " Vedic astrologers " call Srimad Bhagavatam as Panchama Veda! They may be right! But when it comes to discussion about the nature of Rahsi in that Panchama Veda, they start saying blah, blah, blah! > > > What types of rashis are in the Puranas will be clear from 1999b.doc and also BVB6.doc. All those Pauranic rashis are so called sayana!> > Personally, I have yet to find any mention of any so called nirayana Rashichakra in any of the Puranas or even the Sidhantas! If u have come across such references, pl. do enlighten me!> > With regards,> > A K Kaul> > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Prashant Pandeyji,> > > <But for Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).>> > > > > > For your devotion to your dharma, I want to tell you a famous story of our dharma explaining the importance and limitation of sayan sankranti and nirayan sankrantis.It is said once a quarrel started between Brahmaji and Vishnuji as to who was the greater between them.The quarrel went unsettled for ten thousand divya varsha.Then suddenly there appeard a flame of > > > light between them and both were surprised to see this third thing appearing.They were curious toknow waht it was. Branhma anted to find where its top as and flew upwards and vishunu wanted to find its rootor bottom and went downwards..Later Vishnu appeared saying he could not find the bottom.Then Brhama appeared saying he found the top and brought with him witnesses one of which was the kamadhenu cow.Now shiva appeared efore them and said,Brahama told al lie saying he found the top without findngg it, so he shall not be worshippeed. but because Vishnu admeiitted the truth, he will b> > > worshipped.Theyn say taht is the reason why we have no temple towordhip Brahmaji.> > > Here follows the astrological meaning of the story.Brahma is pole star or north star.Vishnu is the sun whom we call Surya narayan.The pole star is high in the sky above the north pole.> > > From the pole star looking down we see the earth, which is also known as the cow, > > > kamadhenu.Thus looking from the earth or north pole up towards the sky,the pole star is apparently seen as the top of the sky.But the truth is that the lunar pole or the centre of the lunar orbit ie. bary centre is the actual top, which is Shiva himself.Now we should know that the sayan sankranti is related to the pole star or its postion. The nirayan sankranti is related to the sun and the solar sankranti.This is why we give importance to the nirayan sankranit and not to the sayan sankranti for religious purpose and also in astrology, although we take the sayan positon for the actual calculations of the heavenly bodies etc.> > > I hope I have expresssed what I wanted to say.> > > thanking you,> > > Sincerely yours,> > > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > Prashant Pandey <praspandey@ ....>> > > HinduCalendar> > > Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:18:15 AM> > > Subject: > [HinduCalendar] > > > Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I recently heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of their festivals..This is what worries me..>> > > > > > yeahoooo> > > > > > ting ding ding ding ding !> > > > > > Sirji this is the reality of our HINDU DHARMA. Believe me!> > > > > > We had tropical calendar in past, this our Dharma Grantha says.That is our ancient Vedic Calendar in true sense.> > > > > > Sir for your kind information south indian's are best in astrology and about knowing the ancient facts of Hindu Dharma.> > > > > > I was also aware that South Indians will start this reform and will reinstate our vedic calendar because they are the best, and they have courage.> > > > > > All naadi astrological works are from south india.Thy have done beautifull research, no doubt, i should say they are best in the world in astrology.> > > > > > We can abuse Kaulji but he is correct in his > > > research.S B Dixit, i think also South Indian, he has also said same thing and now in South India, some temples have reinstaed the Vedic Calendar.Good News!> > > > > > I am also also ardent follower of Nirayan (Sidereal) sytem(also of tropical).> > > > > > But for Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).> > > > > > Thanks again for Good News!> > > > > > Now i am happy and can sleep well.> > > > > > Regs,> > > Prashant Pandey> > > > > > Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com, Prashant <praspandey@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Nairji,> > > > As you suggest?I stop here, since you are irritated unnecessarily without searching for the truth.But let me remind you that I am not in favoour of pure sayan system as you understand.? I want to protect and presearve?the nirayan system in a reseasonble way.The reason?I want to do this?is because sayan is trying to > > > overcome our nirayan culture..I recently heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of their festivals.This is what worries me.Well if you want them to increase and increase, it is upto you.You may please check from Robert wilkinson of the WAves forum, if it is true or not.Also know that Mr.Kaul has?said both sayan and nirayan Niradhar.Any way, at present I am in no mood to continue with this subject here either. Thanking you,?I say goodbye,> > > > ?sincerely yours,> > > > Hari Malla.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@ >> > > > vedic astrology@ . com> > > > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:48:49 PM> > > > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@ . com, " sunil nair " > > > > <astro_tellerkerala > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > dear hari malla ji and sreenadh ji> > > > > > > > malla ji says shri kaul ji is ready to change his attitude or may b> > > > malla ji can make it happen ,kaul jis confessions and conversion are> > > > always welcome> > > > > > > > But the problem wont end there> > > > > > > > First of all he shud decide/agree what is Hindu astrological> > > > -astronomical concept and he shud discard his support for sayana western> > > > zodiacs and praising of their contributions .His calendrical concepts> > > > are based on a moving vishuva bindu ,so the rasi belt ( the path ) moves> > > > with the changes in vishuva bindu which is western concept not indian> > > > jyothishchakra ( hindu /baudha /jaina /charvaka etc ) .indian concept> > > > is based on nakshtra and fixed point of meshadi and aswinadi aramba> > > > chart> > > > > > > > ,if malla ji thinks it is varahamihira strted it i think he is wrong> > > > ,pls refer parasara hora ,chapter 3 > > > shloka numbrs 3 to 7 ,nakshtrani> > > > grhanam ----- to meshadi namaka rasaya syu part .> > > > > > > > so for us rasi chakra is the path for grahas and nakshtras and other> > > > points required for a jyothichakra .And it has to b fixed one .And for> > > > us rasi and bhava is imp .lagna and Houses decide every thing and> > > > ownerships /shodasa vargas and all other mathematical points like ucha> > > > ,neecha and even gulika/mrityu sputa etc all r based on a fixed rasi> > > > chart .where as if we can use kaul's version then path is moving and> > > > grahas moving and nakshtras moving tho mathematicaly graha position ( i> > > > mean stithi ) point is same in both concepts which has diffrnt> > > > parameters ,so logicaly mathematicaly both may b correct apparently but> > > > cannot compromise because acccording his concept or supporting> > > > arguemnts will take us to think that the road and vehicles both r moving> > > > ( zodiac is moving back > and > > > grahas are moving forward ) .So when some> > > > one is travelling we hav to say delhi has come to him than he reached to> > > > delhi by road ,still the question of timing such purticular event in> > > > advance how it is possible when both r moving ??why we need to> > > > complicate every thing ??> > > > > > > > so i hope malla ji may revise his views .> > > > > > > > also according to vedic concept the vishnu nabhi is important in> > > > thinking abt creation of universe and here the moola nakshtra ( as it is> > > > base or root ) and jyeshta ( eldest one ) is also has to b considered as> > > > based on it all nakshtra concept is based than some one interpret some> > > > vedic mantras as kritikati naksktras in some time of vedic periods is> > > > the strting point ,it has diffrnt meaning may b ,and vishuva bindu> > > > cannot b a strting point when thinking abt creation of universe as it is> > > > the basis of rai chakra ( rahu -sikhi chakra )> > > > > > > > > > > > so many things accepted as vedic will b diffrnt frm kaulian argumnts> > > > and i dont think ther is any chance of reconciling both arguemnts .> > > > > > > > so he has only 2 choice ..either discard his arguemnts or go ahed> > > > without any use except name calling and a chance to call astrologers as> > > > frauds in the name of a impractical calender ,like wat he was doing for> > > > almost quarter century .> > > > > > > > let us forget abt he abused ancient rishies / acharyas and dharma gurus> > > > and sankaracharyas .Also haunting any one who is interested in astrology> > > > by gate crashing technics and guerrilla technics .> > > > > > > > rgrds sunil nair .> > > > > > > > Om shreem mahalaxmai namah .> > > > > > > > --- In ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Hari Malla ji,> > > > > //> Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most of us > > > lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.//> > > > > Sorry... I think this itself is the very thing he lacks! He is NOT> > > > > devoted to the purpose of calendar reform, but just to the his> > > > roadside> > > > > rowdy bad mouth attitude against astrologers and astrology alone. If> > > > > ever he been dedicated to the subject of Vedic calender reform even> > > > for> > > > > at least 3 months or so he would have prepared the the skeleton frame> > > > > work of the same, and also might have written good descriptive article> > > > > about its components, organization, co-relation, purpose etc. He is> > > > yet> > > > > to implement even these tasks, which a knowledeable individual who may> > > > > dedicate 3 months to this subject may do. This not only prove that he> > > > is> > > > > incapable, but also that he got NO DEVOTION to the purpose of vedic> > > > > calender reform. Mark it.> > > > > // I have requested him .... Hopefully > he > > > may agree....... I think it> > > > > may be worthwhile to talk and negotiate.// > > > > > Hopes are always good. Whether it be Sunil Nair ji, Sunil> > > > > Bhattacharjya ji or Me, we all once had a respect for this man, which> > > > we> > > > > all lost in due course during our repeated interactions with that foul> > > > > mouth, without constructive attitude and respect for the contributions> > > > > of our ancistors. You can have your turn, and wish you all the best in> > > > > your sincere efforts. > > > > > //If he comes to term with somethng which is commonly acceptable why> > > > not> > > > > go along with him?//> > > > > Yes, certainly if he wish he can join us and come along with. Or if> > > > > you wish you can join him and go along with. But the point is the> > > > > purpose of evey stream, school of knowledge and individuals differ and> > > > > the group is just a meeting place. The true contributions are always> > > > > done by > > > individuals and is individualistic. This being so - neither I> > > > > need the help of Kaul nor Kaul need the help of me. The same could be> > > > > true about the contibution of anyone with in this group or outside.> > > > > //After all we must divide our work.//> > > > > Have your ever tried it (especially related astrological research)?> > > > > And what was the result? What are the lessons you learned from that> > > > > experience? We all would be eager to know. If you have ever tried> > > > > the same, you would sure be able to answer those questions. But if you> > > > > haven't ever tried the same - then your advice does not hold any> > > > water.> > > > > Any way I am in support of that statement, but at times when it> > > > comes> > > > > to astrological research, I don't find anyone to divide my work with!> > > > > > > > > May be I may change this opinion as I see more sincere at the same> > > > time> > > > > knowledgeable > individuals. > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla> > > > > harimalla@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadhji,> > > > > > Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most of us lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.> > > > > After all we must divide our work.If he comes to term with somethng> > > > > which is commonly acceptable why not go along with him?> > > > > > I feel we can work something which harmonises all, which keeps up> > > > our> > > > > nirayan tradition and also correct the times of festivals..The rashis> > > > > must continue, as much of our religious literature and the present> > > > > jyotish system is based and has been written using them. I have> > > > > requested him not try to get rid of the rashis and also tolerate the> > > > > nirayan system in a coordinated fashion with the sayan system.> > > > > > > > > > Hopefully he may agree.I have not been in contact with him for some> > > > > time.Shree Sunil Bahatacharyaji, thinks he may not agree overnight.But> > > > I> > > > > think it may be worthwhile to talk and negotiate.thank you...> > > > > > Sincerely yours,> > > > > > Hari Malla> > > > >> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >> > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 dear respected bhaskar ji i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the name of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything and even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs ,becauase i hav so many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for many to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness in our approach and activities and they think it as weakness if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme arrogance . did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way . malla ji says """we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra).""""" """"Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together"""" sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra just waisting time of others and it will come around feb 6th to sun to atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now they will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti ?? where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ?? kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its hands at our wish and will where is pole star did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever contributed to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced them first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this sastra has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of calenders and hindu festivals . he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and gone to bananas now again coming with blah blah blah theories . when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal daiorria rgrds sunil nair , "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish wrote:>> > Respected Sirs,> > What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of> Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ?> > If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in> future too ?> > regards,> > Bhaskar.> > > > > > > , Hari Malla> harimalla@ wrote:> >> > Dear Goelji,> > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for> the interest.> > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is> true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The> Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now> gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it> will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original> requirement.Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether> in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla> pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of> our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these> factors no more meet simultaneously.Thus the need to reform it to its> original status.> > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four> things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole> star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa> nakshyatra).Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun,> the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not> leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is> where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same> time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish > intact.> > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it> vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras).> > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we> have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion> becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months> one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and> others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan> points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra> ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from> maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both> the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and> nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming> our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on> increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the> best type of people in the world.> > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank> you,> > sincerely yours,> > Hari malla> >> >> >> > ________________________________> > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@> > Hari Malla harimalla@> > Cc: astrologyandremedies ; ancient indian astrology> > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM> > Re: Calender reform> >> >> > Dear Friend,> > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and> other> > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based> calender and> > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean> longitude of star citra(spica 16) was> > 180 deg 3sec.> > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious> requirements of any group or sect in India.> > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a> arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose> > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at> a mean rate of 50".3 per year.> > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed.> > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat> Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical> data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre.> > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an> 'INDIAN PANCHANG'.> > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement.> > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical> co-ordinates.> > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also> available.> > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about.> > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free> to do so.> >> > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we> are now using most modern> > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now> follow geocentric> > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic.> > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the> effect of Helio- centric> > co-ordinates.> > Regards,> > G.K.GOEL> > Ph: 09350311433> > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR> > NEW DELHI-110 076> > INDIA> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________> > Hari Malla harimalla@> > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@> > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM> > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> >> >> > Dear Goelji,> > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and> tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are> certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is> bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are> celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If> this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is> violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes> it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to> time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by> Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this> merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the> lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking> you ,I remain,> > sincerely yours,> > Hari Malla> >> >> >> > ----- Forwarded Message ----> > "harimalla@" harimalla@> > HinduCalendar > > Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:15:13 AM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Dear Prashanta Pandeyji,> > I think we have come to some serious decision making point.Upon this> point hinges the whole success and failure of our calendar reform> proposal.plese check the version of vedanga jyotish; it says,> > When the sun is dhanistha, the uttrayan, the month of maagha and the> sukla pakshya of tapa start together..> > You will see that the date of tapa sukla pratipada means that tapa is> a lunar tropical month.Month of Maagha also means it is a lunar month,> with the full moon tied with maghaa nakshyatra.This is sideral. Thus the> lunar month defined here is both sidereal and tropical at the same time.> > This is also the reason why we have to compromise between sidereal and> tropical sytem.Lunar months are tropical and sideral both at the same> time. That is the reson why I propose 6 degrees ayanamsa to be still> there but niryan sankranti is to be brought near the tropical sankranti> for coordination of the two.You also know that our festivals are> celebrated by tithis.Thus we have to understand the behaviour of our> tithi and its month to solve our problem of calender reform. Thus there> is no escape but to compromise both tropical and sideral..> > This was the intention of the story of Brahma and vishnu quarreling> with each other for a lo;ng time till finally they were coordinated by> Shivaji..Shivaji also said that vishnu is to be worshipped and not> brahma.This means we have to celebrate our festivals by nirayan sakranti> and not by sayan sankranti.But they must be witin the range of the same> full moon so Shiva can coordinate them.This coordiantion you have called> as compromise.I say it should be done, as it is our practice in the> past.thank you,> > Sincerely yours,> > Hari Malla> >> > HinduCalendar, "Prashant Pandey" <praspandey@> ...> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Hari Mallaji,> > >> > > Sir in my view you are wrong in making your views but i respect your> efforts.> > >> > > Tapa, Tapasya can't be lunar.> > >> > > Regs,> > > Prashant Pandey> > >> > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@>> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Kaul saheb,> > > > I?have checked it in vedanga jyotish and it?is the sixth sloka and> it says the month of maagha and the sukla padkshya of tapa.Thus these> two refer to the same lunar month, tapa used for the pakshya and maagha> used for the name of the month.I understand tapa as old lunar month> denoting season, here tapa is used for pakshya andthus it can never be> soalr month.maagha also can never be solar because the full moon lis> linked to magghaa nskshyatra.Only lunar month have full moons.Thus both> tapa and maaagha are lunar.So tapa has been ussed for lunar seasonal> month or pakshya and maagha for the newly formed sidereal lunar month.> Thus one is seasonal and the other is sidereal.Not one as solar and the> other as lunar.> > > > Uttaryan? with sun at dhanishta is unmistakable, ?I agree.Since> only the lunar month and date?was there, the intention to fix the lunar> uttarayn date is also indicated, when it is said that at the same time?> magha month and tapa?sukla partipada (meanig maagha sukla pratipada)> occurs.> > > > Madhuschai Madhavaschai vasantikav ritu, means lunar vasanta.Those> days since only lunar months were there, one need not say lunar or> solar.That was the only type of month althoough the year was always> solar marked by teh solstice only.Solar year and lunar months are the> natural things in nature being true natural cycles.?That is, in my view,> why they had the adhimas system right from the beginning of the vedic> culture, to?match the lunar months?with the solar year.Solar months were> conveniently made? at 30 degrees each, later on, to approximate the> lunar months, with the help of the rashis.They were not in the> beginning.> > > > The vedic months could never be islamic- like because they always> had adhimases right from the beginning.They also had 19 or 38 or 95 year> cycles to control it further, the left overs.Thus we should never think> of having islamic type of?months.They had lunar seasons and lunar ayans> and lunar years.Moslems do not have lunar seasons and ayans.?> > > > More in my next mail. thanking you,> > > > Sincerelyyours,> > > > Hari Malla> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>> > > > hinducalendar> > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:06:21 AM> > > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > HinduCalendar, "Avtar Krishen Kaul"> <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,Namaskar!> > > > < To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read that> even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote for> solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been solar months, with> the same names as the lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same> names for two different things. >> > > > There is a mantra in the Vedanga Jyotisha, perhaps 5th mantra,> which states that when the sun and the moon conjoin in Danishtha, it is> Uttarayana, Tapah and Magha and a new five year yuga starts. Dikshit has> translated Tapah as season, but that would mean that there would be> twelve seasons instead of six seasons in a year. If Tapah is also taken> as the name of the lunar month instead of the solar month, then Magha> will have to be taken as a solar month, since Punarukti in the same> mantra is repugnant to the Vedic ethos..That means that Tapah is the> solar month of Shishira Ritu---and not of Greeshma ritu, as some> muladhara-walas would like us to believe!> > > > If u try to ascertain the longitudes of stars and also the tithi> etc. for January 1, 1400 BCE fropm Vasishtha and Mahesh/ganesh programs,> u will find that as on January 1, 1400 BCE, the New Moon was really> conjunct Dhanishtha star, it was also away by 270 degrees from the mean> equator and equinox of that date! That means it was really Utarayana as> well as a New Moon in Dhanishtha on that date!Similarly, there is a> mantra, perhaps seventh, in the same Vedanga Jyotisha which states that> from the day of Udagayana, days start increasing by ...prasthas. That> certainly means that by Udagayana, the VJ meant nothning but Uttarayana,> since it is only from that day that the day starts increasin as compared> to nights, Winter Solstice being the shortest day of the year.> > > > We also find references in the Yajurveda stating "madhuschai> madhavashchai vasantikav ritu.." etc. U will find a lot of material in> 1999b.doc regarding the Vedic months being aligned to seasons.> > > >> > > > <The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many> reference are available about lunar months and the word maasa can mean> both moon and the month.>> > > > Vedanga Jyotisha is of an era of at least 1400 BCE. It is not an> exact astronomical work at all! The duration of a solar year as per that> work is 366 days, which is neither sidereal nor tropical! The> mothodology of calculating tithi etc. in that work is meant for> calculating mean tithis and nakshatras and not the true ones! The ending> moments of nakshatras and tithis etc. as per that work are thus not> accurate at all! However, they serve as a milepost for future> guidelines, and those guidelines are that the Vedic calendar was> seasonal, months were solar to start with and lunar synodic months were> pegged to the same.If we eliminate solar ingress of Madhu, Madhava etc.> and take both Madhu, Madhava as well as Chaitra, Vaishakha as lunar> synodic months, we will be left with something like an Islamic calendar!> > > > We cannot ignore the two solstices and equinoxes at any cost! They> have to be given some names! That is why the Vj states that the> Udagayana, the month of Tapah and Magha start simultaneously! There is> every possibility that the ancient astronomers of India were not that> adept in calculating the timings of exact phenomena of Uttarayana and> Dakshinayana or Vasanta and Hemanta Sampat! They could be plus/minus one> day or may be even more from the actual timings of such phenomena!> > > > I find references in the Puranas that it is difficult even for> yogis to determine the exact timings of ayanas and vishuvas. (Pl. see> 1999b..doc, rashi5.doc, BVB6.doc etc). It is a fact that on the day of> Uttarayana the sun is "stationary" for a nano-second before starting> coming down from the maximum Southern declination! Same is the case with> other ayana and sampat! The exact moments of those phenomena are for> nano-seconds! It may be easy to find the exact timings of those> phenomena with Xtreme Intel processors on the basis of data from> NASA/JPL these days, but for Acharya Lagadha of at least fifteenth> century BCE, that was a really difficult job!> > > > We have, therefore, to see the spirit instead of the letter of> such works and streamline our calendar in accordance with that spirit!> > > >> > > > <WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is> proved by vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the> solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control the> lunar months.>> > > > I am unable to get the drift of your statement! There cannot be an> adhi or kshyaya lunar masa unless and until they are compared to> something and that something is solar months! There can be a thirteenth> synodic lunar month as adhimasa in a year when there is a yardstick of> regular twelve months in that very year! And that yardstick is twelve> solar months of a seasonal year! Besides, it is not necessary that an> adhimasa will fall always on the day of Uttarayana! That just is next to> impossible!> > > >> > > > <It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipada> and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha>> > > > The year at the time of Vedanga Jyotisha started with Uttarayana.> And as already clarified, Acharya Lagadha had somehow determined a> particular year when the Udagayana coincided with Magha Shukla Paksha.> These days it is also a similar situation more or less---real Magha> Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon after Uttarayana, which is> also known as the month of Tapah. However, because of precession,> Uttarayana does not fall these days in Dhanishta but in an entirely> different nakshatra.> > > > <This itself shows the control was done by winter> solstice,uttaryan. the fact that this point remained uttarayan for over> one thoousand years show that it was nirayan too.>> > > > Why are u clining to the nirayana and sayana myths created by> jyotishis? How can Uttarayana be nirayana or sayana when it is a> seasonal phenomenon that has nothing to do with precession, leave alone> the so called ayanamsha?> > > > <Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poush> purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashis> as you say>> > > > That is exactly what is happening these days! Magha Shukla paksha> starts more or less one month after the start of real Magha Shukla> paksha since these days we are not celebrating the Vedic or Vedanga> Jyotisha Magha but Lahiri Magha! But then how does that justify our> celebrating all the festivals on wrong days?> > > > <Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.>> > > > What culture are you talking about? In the real Vedic culture, the> words like nirayana and sayana do not exist at all since we do not find> them in any of the Puranas, leave alone the Vedas! So what r u talking> about? Pl. do read my posts again! I have proved it with hundreds of> proofs that nirayana is really niradhar and so is sayana! But since the> solar months like Madhu, Madhava or the Vedic lunar Chaitra, Vaishkha> etc. are real astronomical phenomena, they are the only ones that are> the real halmarks of the real Vedic culture!In a nutshell, the more u> try to accommodate the so called Vedic jyotishis the more u will defeat> your own purpose! Pl., therefore, do come out of this stupor of nirayana> versus sayana mess and stop reapeating the same "15 degrees forward and> fifteen degrees backward" theory again and again!> > > > With regards,A K Kaul> > > > PS I am still out of town and have talked about the VJ mantra from> my memory! Pl. do not impale me if there is some "typo" in the exact> references!> > > > AKK> > > >> > > > In HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@>> wrote:>> Dear Kaul saheb,> To my knowlege vedic months were never> solar.I have read that even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide> the vedic quote for solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been> solar months, with the same names as the lunar ones.which is also> doubtful to have same names for two different things. The lunar months> were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are available about> lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the month..> WE> do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by> vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the> solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control the> lunar months.It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla> pratipada and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha.This itself> shows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the fact that> this> > > > point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show that it> was nirayan too.Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to> Poush purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of> rashis as you say.> Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our> culture.Also when the months were called as Chaitra, Baisakh,since they> were tied to nakshyatras, how can you say they were not nirayan?.Is> tying to nakshyatras not making it nirayan.Off course, th e lunar tithis> could be both nirayan and sayan simultaneously, for over a thousand> years as I have already explained in my previous mails.> Thanking you,I> remain> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla> > > > > ____________ _________> _________ __> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > HinduCalendar@> . com> Monday, April 20, 2009 12:26:37 PM> Subject:> [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,>> Namaskar!> Vedic solar months, whether u name them> > > > Tapah, Tapasya etc. or Magha, Phalguna etc. have absolutely> nothing to do with New and Full Moons. They have, on the other hand,> everything to do with the two equinoxes and solstices! That means that> Vedic solar months are directly related to seasons!> On the other hand,> it is the Vedic lunar synodic months that are dependent on solar months.> As and when there are more than one New Moon between two solar> ingresses, there is a lunar adhika masa! As and when there is no New> moon between two solar months, that is a kshyaya masa! > If u delink the> lunar synodic months from seasonal solar months, u will be following the> Hejira i.e. Muslim calendar! Since the real Vedic lunar months are> related to seasonal solar months, so called nirayana lunar months are> equally an Islamic calendar since those months are not related to> seasonal solar months but to Lahiri solar months!> > Now coming to the> nirayana versus sayana myth! Solar months are neither nirayana nor> > > > sayana, since that curse is meant only for Mesha, Vrisha etc.> rashis! In fact the nirayana myth has been created by Hindu jyotihis on> the basis of the most monstrous astronomical work viz. Surya Sidhanta by> Maya the mlechha! Those jyotishis had to invent an anti-nirayana myth> and they named that myth as sayana!> > Astronomically, there are no> Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, since the Rashichakra itself is an imaginary> belt! Its components can never be real since if the sum total of the> parts itself is imaginary, its ingredients are also imaginary! That> obivates the possibility of niryana-versus- sayana myth even> scientifically! > Regarding the Pauranic lore, whenever any Mesha,> Vrihsa etc. Rashis have been mentioned, they are all related to seasons!> (Pl. see npj3.doc, BVB6.doc, 1999b.doc). As such, even the Pauranic lore> does not talk of any so called nirayana curse!> "Vedic astrologers"> themselves are running after imaginary ayanamshas! There is no> > > > astrological work, except the fake Brihat Parasharis galore, that> has talked of any Ayanamsha myth! It is therefore a moot point as to> what Ayanamsha the authors of those wroks, right from Sphujidwaja' s> Yavana Jatakam through Brihat Jatakam and Uttarakalarta or Jataka> Paraijata or Manasagari etc. etc. to Mukunda Daivajnyas Triskanda> Jyotisha used since no work on predictive astrology has talked about any> ayanamsha!> As such, why are are clamouring for an imaginary will of the> wisp, which will only scuttle your own efforts for reforming the Hindu> calendar?> With regards,> A K Kaul> > HinduCalendar@ .> com, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Kaul Saheb,> >> namaskar!To continue my discussion,let us coin a new word.The authentic> nirayan sankranti.When a nirayan sankranti has the right to represent> the sayan sankranti, we may say it the authentic nirayan sankranti..If> it has no right then it is not authorised.how does the> > authority> > > > come? It is given by the full moon zone.If the connected full moon> zone embraces the sayan sankrani too, then that nirayan sankranti has> the authentic right to represent that sayan sankranti too.The present> makar sankanti had the authentic right to represent the sayan sankranti> till 1400 AD.The reseaon is til then the connected full moon the Poush> Purnima embraced the sayan sankranti every third year during its> fluctuation. So if the puranas say makar sankranti for uttaryan during> that period, it means the nirayan makar sankranti which had the> authentic right to represent the sayan uttaryan.It did not mean the> sayan uttarayan sankranti itself.This is proved by the practice too.We>> do> > magh snana till date on the nirayan sakranti.We cannot say it was> wrong to do so.Only the dead habit was carried over from the authentic> days to the present, when that authentication is no more.This may be> called as the inadvertant use of the custome. At present the> > > > authentic makaar sankranti is the present dhanu sankranti. Because> the present Mangsir purnima does embrace the sayan sankranti giving the> authentic representation to Dhanu sankranti, as nirayan uttarayan, being> situated at the middle of the zone of Mangsir purnima.Thus the need to> shift the name of Poush fullmoon to mangsir fullmoon, and the name of> makar sankranti to the present Dhanu sankranti .This shifting of the> name is to be done during calender reform process in the sayan fashion,> to uphold our dharma shastras, as suggested by SB Dixit.Then all> problems are solved.The rashis can continue to remain in the new positon> for another 15 00- 2000 years.These rashis may be called> > as the> epochal nirayan rashis.The old rashis as original rashis,as they are.> The authentic representation of the nirayan sankranti is also restored> by the new epochal rashis.The appropriate full moon which embraces the> sayan sankranti is also restored.How do we get the> > power> > > > to shift the names like this. This is making use of the sayan> system, which gives us the right to shift the names.In this way we go on> coordinating the epochal nirayan sankranti with the sayan sankrantis> every 2150 years, and authorised them to represent the sayan sankranti,> which is the present practice. > > From the story which was narrated,> this authority is given to Vishnu (or the nirayan sakranti) by Shiva(> fullmoon) and Brahma (or sayan sakranti) does not get that right.Brahma> is the pole star, Vishnu is the sun.Thus solar nirayan sankranti gets> the right to represent the full moon(shiva) i.e. to get worshipped, but> the sayn sankranti does not get that right.This is our present practice> too.Only calculation may be done on the basis of the sayan sakranti.> >> Have I been able to clarify? Please reply.thank you,> > Sincerely> yours,> > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________> __> > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ...>> > To:> > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009> 10:11:24 PM> > Re: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > >> > Dear Kaul saheb,> > I feel my previous reply was not to the> point.Please let me express my viewpoint about sayan and nirayan.You> will agree that when the two sankrantis are at the same point as in the> beginning, it is the same wether we say sayan or nirayan.They have the> same meaning.In the same way with respect to festivals if both the> sankranits are within the same fullmoon zone we do not have to bother> wether it is sayan or nirayn, because to that fullmon both the sayana> and the nirayan sankranits are meeting it, as it were, it is at the same> point as in the beginning.This realisation is important.Sayan and> nirayan meeting at the same solar date occurs only may be one year (or> for a few years they are not distinguishable) .But sayan and nirayan> value for tithi is effective not only one or a few years, but is> > valid> > > > for over 1000 years if considered on one side, and taking both> sides it is valid even for 2000years.This is very important to> understand.Most people do> not> > seem to understand that.> > Thus my> claim is that during the vedanga jyotish period it was not sayan as many> people are prone to think it was both sayan and nirayan at the same> time.It was sayan and nirayan both at the same time even during the> rashi period too, if understood in a special way.How is this possible?>> > Now we have to come to understand nirayan sakranti with a special> meaning.The special meaning is this, nirayan sankranti is the middle> point of full moon zone. This is more exact meaning than the nirayan> sankranit is as attached to a certain star.The fullmoon is attached to> two or three nakshyatras and the nirayan sankranti is at the middle of> the two or three nakshyatras as the middle of the fullmoon zone..To> understand what I am trying to say,one should get the habit of knowing> > > > that the sankranti and the fullmoon zone are at 180 degrees> apart.for example mesh sanrkanti is opposite(or at 180 degrees) to the> mid point of chitraa nakshyatara. this habit is very good to undertand> the coordinated system of calender reform.It is necessary to know about> the concept of integrated sakranti- fullmon zone.Here in Nepal we have> made drawing of the 12 sankranti-full moon zones. they are named as> 1.mesh sankranti- chaitra full moon zone 2.Vrish> > sankranti-Baisakh> full moon zone etc etc.upto 12 sankranti-fullmoon zones.> > AS long as> the sayan sakranti is within one full moon zone then the tropical and> the sidereal sankrantis being within the same fullmoon have the dual> meaning of it being both sayan and nirayan at the same time.may e I stop> here.but i wil make it clearer next time.thanking you,> > Sincerely> yours,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________> __> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..>> > To:> > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009> 6:52:13 PM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > >> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> > Namaskar!> > I am still out of town and> will be back in Delhi on April 23. I am just tryinhg to catch with the> backlog from my mobile phone internet, lest people consider me a spent> force!> > However, the more I read your mails, the more amused I am! > >> U can decide Vedic rashis being sayana or nirayana only after u can> quote the Vedic mantras that talk of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis! There> are no such curses in the Rik Jyotisham, Yajur Jyotisham or even Atharva> Veda Parishishta, leave alone any of the Vedas! Thus Mesha etc. rashis> are conspicuous by their absence from the Vedic lore!> > Some "Vedic> astrologers" call Srimad Bhagavatam as Panchama Veda! They may be right!> But when it comes to discussion about the nature of Rahsi in that> Panchama Veda, they start saying blah, blah, blah!> > > > What types of rashis are in the Puranas will be clear from> 1999b.doc and also BVB6.doc. All those Pauranic rashis are so called> sayana!> > Personally, I have yet to find any mention of any so called> nirayana Rashichakra in any of the Puranas or even the Sidhantas! If u> have come across such references, pl. do enlighten me!> > With regards,>> > A K Kaul> > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla> <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Prashant Pandeyji,> > > <But for> Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay> for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).>> > > > > > For your devotion to your> dharma, I want to tell you a famous story of our dharma explaining the> importance and limitation of sayan sankranti and nirayan sankrantis.It> is said once a quarrel started between Brahmaji and Vishnuji as to who> was the greater between them.The quarrel went unsettled for ten thousand> divya varsha.Then suddenly there appeard a flame of> > > > light between them and both were surprised to see this third thing> appearing.They were curious toknow waht it was. Branhma anted to find> where its top as and flew upwards and vishunu wanted to find its rootor> bottom and went downwards..Later Vishnu appeared saying he could not> find the bottom.Then Brhama appeared saying he found the top and brought> with him witnesses one of which was the kamadhenu cow.Now shiva appeared> efore them and said,Brahama told al lie saying he found the top without> findngg it, so he shall not be worshippeed. but because Vishnu> admeiitted the truth, he will b> > > worshipped.Theyn say taht is the> reason why we have no temple towordhip Brahmaji.> > > Here follows the> astrological meaning of the story.Brahma is pole star or north> star.Vishnu is the sun whom we call Surya narayan.The pole star is high> in the sky above the north pole.> > > From the pole star looking down we> see the earth, which is also known as the cow,> > > > kamadhenu.Thus looking from the earth or north pole up towards the> sky,the pole star is apparently seen as the top of the sky.But the truth> is that the lunar pole or the centre of the lunar orbit ie. bary centre> is the actual top, which is Shiva himself.Now we should know that the> sayan sankranti is related to the pole star or its postion. The nirayan> sankranti is related to the sun and the solar sankranti.This is why we> give importance to the nirayan sankranit and not to the sayan sankranti> for religious purpose and also in astrology, although we take the sayan> positon for the actual calculations of the heavenly bodies etc.> > > I> hope I have expresssed what I wanted to say.> > > thanking you,> > >> Sincerely yours,> > > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ __> > > Prashant Pandey> <praspandey@ ....>> > > HinduCalendar> > > Sent:> Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:18:15 AM> > > Subject:> > [HinduCalendar]> > > > Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I recently> heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan system> for the celebration of their festivals..This is what worries me..>> > >> > > > yeahoooo> > > > > > ting ding ding ding ding !> > > > > > Sirji> this is the reality of our HINDU DHARMA. Believe me!> > > > > > We had> tropical calendar in past, this our Dharma Grantha says.That is our> ancient Vedic Calendar in true sense.> > > > > > Sir for your kind> information south indian's are best in astrology and about knowing the> ancient facts of Hindu Dharma.> > > > > > I was also aware that South> Indians will start this reform and will reinstate our vedic calendar> because they are the best, and they have courage.> > > > > > All naadi> astrological works are from south india.Thy have done beautifull> research, no doubt, i should say they are best in the world in> astrology.> > > > > > We can abuse Kaulji but he is correct in his> > > > research.S B Dixit, i think also South Indian, he has also said> same thing and now in South India, some temples have reinstaed the Vedic> Calendar.Good News!> > > > > > I am also also ardent follower of Nirayan> (Sidereal) sytem(also of tropical).> > > > > > But for Hindu Dharma, i> will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaray> dharm ke liye).> > > > > > Thanks again for Good News!> > > > > > Now i> am happy and can sleep well.> > > > > > Regs,> > > Prashant Pandey> > >> > > > Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com,> Prashant <praspandey@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Nairji,>> > > > As you suggest?I stop here, since you are irritated unnecessarily> without searching for the truth.But let me remind you that I am not in> favoour of pure sayan system as you understand.? I want to protect and> presearve?the nirayan system in a reseasonble way.The reason?I want to> do this?is because sayan is trying to> > > > overcome our nirayan culture..I recently heard that in Tamil nadu> 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of> their festivals.This is what worries me.Well if you want them to> increase and increase, it is upto you.You may please check from Robert> wilkinson of the WAves forum, if it is true or not.Also know that> Mr.Kaul has?said both sayan and nirayan Niradhar.Any way, at present I> am in no mood to continue with this subject here either. Thanking you,?I> say goodbye,> > > > ?sincerely yours,> > > > Hari Malla.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > > sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@ >> > > > vedic astrology@> . com> > > > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:48:49 PM> > >> > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@> . com, "sunil nair"> > > > <astro_tellerkerala> > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > dear hari malla ji and sreenadh ji> > > > >> > > > malla ji says shri kaul ji is ready to change his attitude or may> b> > > > malla ji can make it happen ,kaul jis confessions and> conversion are> > > > always welcome> > > > > > > > But the problem wont> end there> > > > > > > > First of all he shud decide/agree what is Hindu> astrological> > > > -astronomical concept and he shud discard his> support for sayana western> > > > zodiacs and praising of their> contributions .His calendrical concepts> > > > are based on a moving> vishuva bindu ,so the rasi belt ( the path ) moves> > > > with the> changes in vishuva bindu which is western concept not indian> > > >> jyothishchakra ( hindu /baudha /jaina /charvaka etc ) .indian concept> >> > > is based on nakshtra and fixed point of meshadi and aswinadi aramba>> > > > chart> > > > > > > > ,if malla ji thinks it is varahamihira strted> it i think he is wrong> > > > ,pls refer parasara hora ,chapter 3> > > > shloka numbrs 3 to 7 ,nakshtrani> > > > grhanam ----- to meshadi> namaka rasaya syu part .> > > > > > > > so for us rasi chakra is the> path for grahas and nakshtras and other> > > > points required for a> jyothichakra .And it has to b fixed one .And for> > > > us rasi and> bhava is imp .lagna and Houses decide every thing and> > > > ownerships> /shodasa vargas and all other mathematical points like ucha> > > >> ,neecha and even gulika/mrityu sputa etc all r based on a fixed rasi> >> > > chart .where as if we can use kaul's version then path is moving> and> > > > grahas moving and nakshtras moving tho mathematicaly graha> position ( i> > > > mean stithi ) point is same in both concepts which> has diffrnt> > > > parameters ,so logicaly mathematicaly both may b> correct apparently but> > > > cannot compromise because acccording his> concept or supporting> > > > arguemnts will take us to think that the> road and vehicles both r moving> > > > ( zodiac is moving back> > and> > > > grahas are moving forward ) .So when some> > > > one is travelling> we hav to say delhi has come to him than he reached to> > > > delhi by> road ,still the question of timing such purticular event in> > > >> advance how it is possible when both r moving ??why we need to> > > >> complicate every thing ??> > > > > > > > so i hope malla ji may revise> his views .> > > > > > > > also according to vedic concept the vishnu> nabhi is important in> > > > thinking abt creation of universe and here> the moola nakshtra ( as it is> > > > base or root ) and jyeshta ( eldest> one ) is also has to b considered as> > > > based on it all nakshtra> concept is based than some one interpret some> > > > vedic mantras as> kritikati naksktras in some time of vedic periods is> > > > the strting> point ,it has diffrnt meaning may b ,and vishuva bindu> > > > cannot b a> strting point when thinking abt creation of universe as it is> > > > the> basis of rai chakra ( rahu -sikhi chakra )> >> > > >> > > > > > > > so many things accepted as vedic will b diffrnt frm> kaulian argumnts> > > > and i dont think ther is any chance of> reconciling both arguemnts .> > > > > > > > so he has only 2 choice> .either discard his arguemnts or go ahed> > > > without any use except> name calling and a chance to call astrologers as> > > > frauds in the> name of a impractical calender ,like wat he was doing for> > > > almost> quarter century .> > > > > > > > let us forget abt he abused ancient> rishies / acharyas and dharma gurus> > > > and sankaracharyas .Also> haunting any one who is interested in astrology> > > > by gate crashing> technics and guerrilla technics .> > > > > > > > rgrds sunil nair .> > >> > > > > > Om shreem mahalaxmai namah .> > > > > > > > --- In> ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Hari Malla ji,> > > > > //> Thank you for> the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most of us> > > > lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.//> > > >> > Sorry... I think this itself is the very thing he lacks! He is NOT> >> > > > devoted to the purpose of calendar reform, but just to the his> >> > > roadside> > > > > rowdy bad mouth attitude against astrologers and> astrology alone. If> > > > > ever he been dedicated to the subject of> Vedic calender reform even> > > > for> > > > > at least 3 months or so> he would have prepared the the skeleton frame> > > > > work of the same,> and also might have written good descriptive article> > > > > about its> components, organization, co-relation, purpose etc. He is> > > > yet> >> > > > to implement even these tasks, which a knowledeable individual who> may> > > > > dedicate 3 months to this subject may do. This not only> prove that he> > > > is> > > > > incapable, but also that he got NO> DEVOTION to the purpose of vedic> > > > > calender reform. Mark it.> > >> > > // I have requested him .... Hopefully> > he> > > > may agree....... I think it> > > > > may be worthwhile to talk and> negotiate.// > > > > > Hopes are always good. Whether it be Sunil> Nair ji, Sunil> > > > > Bhattacharjya ji or Me, we all once had a> respect for this man, which> > > > we> > > > > all lost in due course> during our repeated interactions with that foul> > > > > mouth, without> constructive attitude and respect for the contributions> > > > > of our> ancistors. You can have your turn, and wish you all the best in> > > > >> your sincere efforts. > > > > > //If he comes to term with somethng> which is commonly acceptable why> > > > not> > > > > go along with> him?//> > > > > Yes, certainly if he wish he can join us and come along> with. Or if> > > > > you wish you can join him and go along with. But> the point is the> > > > > purpose of evey stream, school of knowledge> and individuals differ and> > > > > the group is just a meeting place.> The true contributions are always> > > > > done by> > > > individuals and is individualistic. This being so - neither I> > >> > > need the help of Kaul nor Kaul need the help of me. The same could> be> > > > > true about the contibution of anyone with in this group or> outside.> > > > > //After all we must divide our work.//> > > > > Have> your ever tried it (especially related astrological research)?> > > > >> And what was the result? What are the lessons you learned from that> > >> > > experience? We all would be eager to know. If you have ever> tried> > > > > the same, you would sure be able to answer those> questions. But if you> > > > > haven't ever tried the same - then your> advice does not hold any> > > > water.> > > > > Any way I am in> support of that statement, but at times when it> > > > comes> > > > > to> astrological research, I don't find anyone to divide my work with!> > >> > > > > > > May be I may change this opinion as I see more sincere at> the same> > > > time> > > > > knowledgeable> > individuals.> > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > >> ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla> > > > >> harimalla@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadhji,> > > > > >> Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > >> > > most of us lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.>> > > > > After all we must divide our work.If he comes to term with> somethng> > > > > which is commonly acceptable why not go along with> him?> > > > > > I feel we can work something which harmonises all, which> keeps up> > > > our> > > > > nirayan tradition and also correct the> times of festivals..The rashis> > > > > must continue, as much of our> religious literature and the present> > > > > jyotish system is based> and has been written using them. I have> > > > > requested him not try> to get rid of the rashis and also tolerate the> > > > > nirayan system> in a coordinated fashion with the sayan system.> > > > >> > >> > > > Hopefully he may agree.I have not been in contact with him for> some> > > > > time.Shree Sunil Bahatacharyaji, thinks he may not agree> overnight.But> > > > I> > > > > think it may be worthwhile to talk and> negotiate.thank you...> > > > > > Sincerely yours,> > > > > > Hari> Malla> > > > >> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of> this message have been removed]> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message> ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to> your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> >> > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >>> > > >> > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > >> > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > >> > >> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________> > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 prashanthnair ji, I wasted much time on this wrestler. He is immune to mathematical evidences as well as to reasoning. There is no point in wasting words on ignorant wrestlers ( " malla " means a wrestler). Call a spade a spade. Lunatic calendars of moon-struck persons will never be accepted by non-muslims in India. -Vinay Jha ============== ============= ________________________________ prashanthnair999 <prashanthnair999 vedic astrology Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:00:10 AM [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Calender reform ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: dear respected bhaskar ji i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the name of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything and even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs , i hav so many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for many to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness in our approach and activities and they think it as weakness if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme arrogance . did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way . malla ji says " " " we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra). " " " " " " " " " Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together " " " " sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra just waisting time of others and This will come around feb 6th to sun to atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now they will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti ?? where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ?? kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its hands at our wish and will where is pole star???? did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever contributed to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced them first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this sastra has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of calenders and hindu festivals . he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and gone to bananas now again coming with blah blah blah theories . when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal daiorria rgrds sunil nair ancient_indian_ astrology, " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > Respected Sirs, > > What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of > Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ? > > If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in > future too ? > > regards, > > Bhaskar. ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla > harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for > the interest. > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original > requirement. Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these > factors no more meet simultaneously. Thus the need to reform it to its > original status. > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa > nakshyatra). Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish > intact. > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras) . > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the > best type of people in the world. > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank > you, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Cc: astrologyandremedie s ; ancient indian astrology > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > > Re: Calender reform > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and > other > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based > calender and > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > > 180 deg 3sec. > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious > requirements of any group or sect in India. > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at > a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical > co-ordinates. > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also > available. > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free > to do so. > > > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we > are now using most modern > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now > follow geocentric > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the > effect of Helio- centric > > co-ordinates. > > Regards, > > G.K.GOEL > > Ph: 09350311433 > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > > NEW DELHI-110 076 > > INDIA > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and > tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are > certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is > bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are > celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If > this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is > violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes > it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to > time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by > Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this > merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the > lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking > you ,I remain, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari Malla > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Ram Singh ji and Bingo Ji, I was forced to leave AIA due to constant abuses from this incivil gang, but here the culprits are calendar reformers who are immune to logic and facts and are hell bent on destroying Hindu traditions. I wasted much time on this malla. He is immune to mathematical evidences as well as to reasoning. There is no point in wasting words on ignorant wrestlers ( " malla " means a wrestler). Call a spade a spade. Lunatic calendars of moon-struck persons will never be accepted by non-muslims in India. Ther are three persons who are dedicated to destroy Hindu calendar. -Vinay Jha ============== ============= ________________________________ Ram Singh <ram_singh6816 vedic astrology Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:23:20 AM Re: [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Calender reform bingo bingo they have to abuse all in past one of their gang member said that SJC is propogating mantra which we use to do at funeral ceremony i will disclose his name with phone recording they have abused all they are big blot in the name of astrologers they are shit --- On Tue, 28/4/09, Bingo Bingo <bingo.bingo78@ .in> wrote: Bingo Bingo <bingo.bingo78@ .in> Re: [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Calender reform vedic astrology Tuesday, 28 April, 2009, 9:32 PM ATTACKERS ON ASTROLOGERS WILL GO TO HELL ONE DAY HE HAS ATTACKED MANY MANY PAGAL HAI DON’T WASTE YOUR TIME ON THIS MENTALLY ILL PERSON HE HAS DIARRHEA IN HIS MOUTH SO DO SHIT HE HAS TO DIE INSTANTLY ONE DAY LIKE A DOG HE HAS NOTHING TO PRESENT SOME DAYS BACK HE WAS SAYING THAT VEDIC CALENDAR IS NIRAYANA NOW HE ATE HIS VOMIT AND ALSO MADE SAYANA CALENDAR THEY HAVE TO ABUSE ALL YOU CAN SEE NOBODY IS ACTIVE ON THEIR FORUMS --- On Tue, 28/4/09, prashanthnair999 <prashanthnair999@ > wrote: prashanthnair999 <prashanthnair999@ > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Calender reform vedic astrology Tuesday, 28 April, 2009, 8:30 PM ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: dear respected bhaskar ji i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the name of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything and even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs , i hav so many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for many to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness in our approach and activities and they think it as weakness if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme arrogance . did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way . malla ji says " " " we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra). " " " " " " " " " Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together " " " " sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra just waisting time of others and This will come around feb 6th to sun to atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now they will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti ?? where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ?? kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its hands at our wish and will where is pole star???? did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever contributed to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced them first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this sastra has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of calenders and hindu festivals . he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and gone to bananas now again coming with blah blah blah theories . when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal daiorria rgrds sunil nair ancient_indian_ astrology, " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > Respected Sirs, > > What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of > Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ? > > If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in > future too ? > > regards, > > Bhaskar. ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla > harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for > the interest. > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original > requirement. Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these > factors no more meet simultaneously. Thus the need to reform it to its > original status. > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa > nakshyatra). Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish > intact. > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras) . > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the > best type of people in the world. > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank > you, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Cc: astrologyandremedie s ; ancient indian astrology > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > > Re: Calender reform > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and > other > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based > calender and > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > > 180 deg 3sec. > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious > requirements of any group or sect in India. > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at > a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical > co-ordinates. > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also > available. > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free > to do so. > > > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we > are now using most modern > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now > follow geocentric > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the > effect of Helio- centric > > co-ordinates. > > Regards, > > G.K.GOEL > > Ph: 09350311433 > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > > NEW DELHI-110 076 > > INDIA > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and > tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are > certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is > bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are > celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If > this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is > violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes > it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to > time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by > Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this > merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the > lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking > you ,I remain, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari Malla > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 dear group Malla ' ji said This is the way to strt a calender according to vedic vedanga jyothisha and other wise we r not eligible to call ourself hindu astrologers rather even hindus . quote """we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra).""""" """"Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together"""" see the fun of malla's calender . let us go practical way than refuting his valuable suggestions simply by verbal gymnastic duels . let us see when sun can come to dhanisha according to Hindus fixed zodiac (siderial chart ) Natal Chart February 6, 2009Time: 7:08:27 ( approx )Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)Place: 77 E 13' 00", 28 N 40' 00" Delhi, India Let us see sun and moon degrees on the day Body Longitude Nakshatra Pada Rasi Sun - 23 Cp 25' 03.58" Dhan 1 Capri Moon - 4 Ge 30' 47.59" Mrig 4 Gemini so we can see sun is in capricon and moon is in mrigasirsha gemini rasi and it is not talling with waht malla ji says .here i was just trying to bring sun and moon in one Nakshtra atleast and testing astronomicaly is it possible .And i find even they r sitting 6 rasies apart and no man can possible to bring them together . now let us which may b their another way which they may argue let us take tropical Zodiac ( sayana ) January 14, 2009Time: 1:50:42 (apprx ) Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)Place: 77 E 13' 00", 28 N 40' 00 Delhi, India let us see sun and moon degree when atleast sun reaches the dhanishta nakshtra ,tho Tropical sayana zodiac has no Hindu nakshtra 's as it is moving zodiac and Nakshtra has to b in a fixed zodiac only as their degrees are already marked and fixed ,still no harm in testing as we r promised heaven if we follow their calender . Body Longitude Nakshatra Pada Rasi Sun 23 Cp 47' 5 Dhan 1 Capri Moon 1 Vi 04' UPha 2 Virgo Here also i failed to bring atleast sun and moon in one sign ( dhanishta part ) like Malla ji said sun and moon is 9 signs apart or frm moon sun is 5 signs away . (Both ways hindus cannot enter into heaven and cannot protect hindu dharma ,see the plight of hindus better let them go to other religions right ???Now all hindus may b cursing Maya the mlecha ,Varahamihira the charlattan ,aryabhatta the fraud ,bhaskara 1 the No.one fake) Now i am worried , what shud b done to celebrate festivals ?? I cannot loose public holidays ?? ( with 33 crores gods hindus still has less public holidays actualy all 365 days in a year shud b declared as Holiday Now how we will celebrate festivals ?? or do we need to wait another 10000 to 85 000 yrs when this phenomenon can happen may b . Or can we wait till rishi lagadha re carnate himself in some avatar and open some forum for calender reforms . But those days he has to fight against calender reformists than astrologers i blv rgrds sunil nair > > , Hari Malla> > harimalla@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Goelji,> > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu> for> > the interest.> > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is> > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The> > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now> > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only> it> > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original> > requirement.Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise> toether> > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa> sukla> > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of> > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these> > factors no more meet simultaneously.Thus the need to reform it to its> > original status.> > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four> > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole> > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa> > nakshyatra).Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the> sun,> > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not> > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This> is> > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the> same> > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish> > intact.> > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it> > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras).> > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we> > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion> > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar> months> > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and> > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan> > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra> > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from> > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift> both> > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and> > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming> > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on> > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be> the> > best type of people in the world.> > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank> > you,> > > sincerely yours,> > > Hari malla> > >> > >> > >> > > ________________________________> > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@> > > Hari Malla harimalla@> > > Cc: astrologyandremedies ; ancient indian astrology> > > > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM> > > Re: Calender reform> > >> > >> > > Dear Friend,> > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah> and> > other> > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based> > calender and> > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time ,> mean> > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was> > > 180 deg 3sec.> > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious> > requirements of any group or sect in India.> > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in> a> > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose> > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating> at> > a mean rate of 50".3 per year.> > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed.> > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram> Sambat> > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern> Astronomical> > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre.> > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in> an> > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'.> > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement.> > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on> tropical> > co-ordinates.> > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also> > available.> > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about.> > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free> > to do so.> > >> > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we> > are now using most modern> > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now> > follow geocentric> > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic.> > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the> > effect of Helio- centric> > > co-ordinates.> > > Regards,> > > G.K.GOEL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Dear Sunil ji, That was an eye opener about Kaulian tactics. :)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "sunil nair" <astro_tellerkerala wrote:>> > > > dear respected bhaskar ji> > i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the name> of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything and> even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs ,becauase i hav so> many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting> our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for many> to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness in> our approach and activities and they think it as weakness> > > > if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to> strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme> arrogance .> > did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way .> > malla ji says> > """we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or> lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras(> sidereal maghaa nakshyatra)."""""> > """"Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in> dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla> pakshya and uttrayan start together""""> > sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra> > just waisting time of others and it will come around feb 6th to sun to> atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini> nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to> dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now they> will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical> calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible> > and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti ??> where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ??> > > > kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my> foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough> > is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its> hands at our wish and will> > > > > > where is pole star did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making> ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical> treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas> > > > they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever contributed> to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world> at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced them> first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this sastra> has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of> calenders and hindu festivals .> > > > he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and gone> to bananas> > > > now again coming with blah blah blah theories .> > when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can> twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer> even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt> approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha> pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions> > > > it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with> them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal> daiorria> > > > rgrds sunil nair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Dear Sunil ji, Lollzzzzzzzzzz..........Ha......... Ha ...........that wa Fun! Thaks for the nice post - I enjoyed it. :)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "sunil nair" <astro_tellerkerala wrote:>> > > > dear group> > > > Malla ' ji said This is the way to strt a calender according to vedic> vedanga jyothisha and other wise we r not eligible to call ourself hindu> astrologers rather even hindus .> > quote> > """we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or> lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras(> sidereal maghaa nakshyatra)."""""> > """"Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in> dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla> pakshya and uttrayan start together""""> > > > > > see the fun of malla's calender .> > > > let us go practical way than refuting his valuable suggestions simply by> verbal gymnastic duels .> > > > let us see when sun can come to dhanisha according to Hindus fixed> zodiac (siderial chart )> > > > Natal Chart> > February 6, 2009> Time: 7:08:27 ( approx )> Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)> Place: 77 E 13' 00", 28 N 40' 00"> Delhi, India> > > > Let us see sun and moon degrees on the day> > > > Body Longitude Nakshatra > Pada Rasi> > Sun - 23 Cp 25' 03.58" Dhan> 1 Capri> Moon - 4 Ge 30' 47.59" Mrig> 4 Gemini> > > > so we can see sun is in capricon and moon is in mrigasirsha gemini rasi> and it is not talling with waht malla ji says .here i was just trying> to bring sun and moon in one Nakshtra atleast and testing astronomicaly> is it possible .And i find even they r sitting 6 rasies apart and no> man can possible to bring them together .> > > > now let us which may b their another way which they may argue> > > > let us take tropical Zodiac ( sayana )> > > > January 14, 2009> Time: 1:50:42 (apprx )> Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)> Place: 77 E 13' 00", 28 N 40' 00> > Delhi, India> > > > let us see sun and moon degree when atleast sun reaches the dhanishta> nakshtra ,tho Tropical sayana zodiac has no Hindu nakshtra 's as it is> moving zodiac and Nakshtra has to b in a fixed zodiac only as their> degrees are already marked and fixed ,still no harm in testing as we r> promised heaven if we follow their calender .> > > > Body Longitude Nakshatra > Pada Rasi> > Sun 23 Cp 47' 5 Dhan> 1 Capri> > > Moon 1 Vi 04' UPha> 2 Virgo> > > > Here also i failed to bring atleast sun and moon in one sign (> dhanishta part ) like Malla ji said sun and moon is 9 signs apart or> frm moon sun is 5 signs away .> > (Both ways hindus cannot enter into heaven and cannot protect hindu> dharma ,see the plight of hindus better let them go to other religions> right ???Now all hindus may b cursing Maya the mlecha ,Varahamihira the> charlattan ,aryabhatta the fraud ,bhaskara 1 the No.one fake)> > > > Now i am worried , what shud b done to celebrate festivals ?? I cannot > loose public holidays ?? ( with 33 crores gods hindus still has less> public holidays actualy all 365 days in a year shud b declared as> Holiday> > > > Now how we will celebrate festivals ?? or do we need to wait another> 10000 to 85 000 yrs when this phenomenon can happen may b . Or can we> wait till rishi lagadha re carnate himself in some avatar and open some> forum for calender reforms .> > > > But those days he has to fight against calender reformists than> astrologers i blv> > > > rgrds sunil nair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Dear Shri Sunil Nair ji, I am beginning to like your mails these days for other reasons too. They contain the right amount of humour, pun, and cynicism and good doses too. It makes enjoyable reading. These people have only one agenda 24 x 7 and makes me wonder when they work, what do they work and how they mantain a living. Which is why I rarely enter such exchanges and stopped these days, because realised that this is endless with them. But we have certainly better things to do. They become neither good astronomers, neither good Panchang makers, neither astrologers and neither good critics. What they will become by the end of their lives only God knows. We are at least following one line of learning - astrology. But these good people are into changing everything and everybody. I was missing you for a long stretch of period. Its good to see your regular postings now, on this Group. This is the way we can be near and in touch though far by distance. warm wishes, Bhaskar. , " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: > > > > > dear respected bhaskar ji > > i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the name > of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything and > even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs ,becauase i hav so > many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting > our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for many > to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness in > our approach and activities and they think it as weakness > > > > if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to > strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme > arrogance . > > did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way . > > malla ji says > > " " " we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or > lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( > sidereal maghaa nakshyatra). " " " " " > > " " " " Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in > dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla > pakshya and uttrayan start together " " " " > > sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra > > just waisting time of others and it will come around feb 6th to sun to > atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini > nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to > dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now they > will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical > calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible > > and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti ?? > where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ?? > > > > kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my > foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough > > is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its > hands at our wish and will > > > > > > where is pole star did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making > ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical > treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas > > > > they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever contributed > to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world > at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced them > first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this sastra > has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of > calenders and hindu festivals . > > > > he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and gone > to bananas > > > > now again coming with blah blah blah theories . > > when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can > twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer > even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt > approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha > pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions > > > > it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with > them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal > daiorria > > > > rgrds sunil nair > > > > > , " Bhaskar " > bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > > > > Respected Sirs, > > > > What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of > > Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ? > > > > If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in > > future too ? > > > > regards, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Hari Malla > > harimalla@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Goelji, > > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu > for > > the interest. > > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is > > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The > > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now > > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only > it > > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original > > requirement.Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise > toether > > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa > sukla > > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of > > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these > > factors no more meet simultaneously.Thus the need to reform it to its > > original status. > > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four > > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole > > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa > > nakshyatra).Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the > sun, > > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not > > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This > is > > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the > same > > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish > > intact. > > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it > > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras). > > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we > > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion > > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar > months > > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and > > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan > > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra > > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from > > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift > both > > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and > > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming > > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on > > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be > the > > best type of people in the world. > > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank > > you, > > > sincerely yours, > > > Hari malla > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > > Cc: astrologyandremedies ; ancient indian astrology > > > > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > > > Re: Calender reform > > > > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah > and > > other > > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based > > calender and > > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , > mean > > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > > > 180 deg 3sec. > > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious > > requirements of any group or sect in India. > > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in > a > > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating > at > > a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram > Sambat > > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern > Astronomical > > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in > an > > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on > tropical > > co-ordinates. > > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also > > available. > > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free > > to do so. > > > > > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we > > are now using most modern > > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now > > follow geocentric > > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the > > effect of Helio- centric > > > co-ordinates. > > > Regards, > > > G.K.GOEL > > > Ph: 09350311433 > > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > > > NEW DELHI-110 076 > > > INDIA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > > > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > > > > Dear Goelji, > > > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and > > tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are > > certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is > > bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are > > celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If > > this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is > > violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes > > it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time > to > > time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by > > Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this > > merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the > > lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and > > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking > > you ,I remain, > > > sincerely yours, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > > > " harimalla@ " harimalla@ > > > HinduCalendar > > > Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:15:13 AM > > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Prashanta Pandeyji, > > > I think we have come to some serious decision making point.Upon this > > point hinges the whole success and failure of our calendar reform > > proposal.plese check the version of vedanga jyotish; it says, > > > When the sun is dhanistha, the uttrayan, the month of maagha and the > > sukla pakshya of tapa start together.. > > > You will see that the date of tapa sukla pratipada means that tapa > is > > a lunar tropical month.Month of Maagha also means it is a lunar month, > > with the full moon tied with maghaa nakshyatra.This is sideral. Thus > the > > lunar month defined here is both sidereal and tropical at the same > time. > > > This is also the reason why we have to compromise between sidereal > and > > tropical sytem.Lunar months are tropical and sideral both at the same > > time. That is the reson why I propose 6 degrees ayanamsa to be still > > there but niryan sankranti is to be brought near the tropical > sankranti > > for coordination of the two.You also know that our festivals are > > celebrated by tithis.Thus we have to understand the behaviour of our > > tithi and its month to solve our problem of calender reform. Thus > there > > is no escape but to compromise both tropical and sideral.. > > > This was the intention of the story of Brahma and vishnu quarreling > > with each other for a lo;ng time till finally they were coordinated by > > Shivaji..Shivaji also said that vishnu is to be worshipped and not > > brahma.This means we have to celebrate our festivals by nirayan > sakranti > > and not by sayan sankranti.But they must be witin the range of the > same > > full moon so Shiva can coordinate them.This coordiantion you have > called > > as compromise.I say it should be done, as it is our practice in the > > past.thank you, > > > Sincerely yours, > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " Prashant Pandey " > <praspandey@ > > ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji, > > > > > > > > Sir in my view you are wrong in making your views but i respect > your > > efforts. > > > > > > > > Tapa, Tapasya can't be lunar. > > > > > > > > Regs, > > > > Prashant Pandey > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul saheb, > > > > > I?have checked it in vedanga jyotish and it?is the sixth sloka > and > > it says the month of maagha and the sukla padkshya of tapa.Thus these > > two refer to the same lunar month, tapa used for the pakshya and > maagha > > used for the name of the month.I understand tapa as old lunar month > > denoting season, here tapa is used for pakshya andthus it can never be > > soalr month.maagha also can never be solar because the full moon lis > > linked to magghaa nskshyatra.Only lunar month have full moons.Thus > both > > tapa and maaagha are lunar.So tapa has been ussed for lunar seasonal > > month or pakshya and maagha for the newly formed sidereal lunar month. > > Thus one is seasonal and the other is sidereal.Not one as solar and > the > > other as lunar. > > > > > Uttaryan? with sun at dhanishta is unmistakable, ?I agree.Since > > only the lunar month and date?was there, the intention to fix the > lunar > > uttarayn date is also indicated, when it is said that at the same > time? > > magha month and tapa?sukla partipada (meanig maagha sukla pratipada) > > occurs. > > > > > Madhuschai Madhavaschai vasantikav ritu, means lunar > vasanta.Those > > days since only lunar months were there, one need not say lunar or > > solar.That was the only type of month althoough the year was always > > solar marked by teh solstice only.Solar year and lunar months are the > > natural things in nature being true natural cycles.?That is, in my > view, > > why they had the adhimas system right from the beginning of the vedic > > culture, to?match the lunar months?with the solar year.Solar months > were > > conveniently made? at 30 degrees each, later on, to approximate the > > lunar months, with the help of the rashis.They were not in the > > beginning. > > > > > The vedic months could never be islamic- like because they > always > > had adhimases right from the beginning.They also had 19 or 38 or 95 > year > > cycles to control it further, the left overs.Thus we should never > think > > of having islamic type of?months.They had lunar seasons and lunar > ayans > > and lunar years.Moslems do not have lunar seasons and ayans.? > > > > > More in my next mail. thanking you, > > > > > Sincerelyyours, > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > > > > > hinducalendar > > > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:06:21 AM > > > > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HinduCalendar, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,Namaskar! > > > > > < To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read that > > even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote for > > solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been solar months, with > > the same names as the lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same > > names for two different things. > > > > > > There is a mantra in the Vedanga Jyotisha, perhaps 5th mantra, > > which states that when the sun and the moon conjoin in Danishtha, it > is > > Uttarayana, Tapah and Magha and a new five year yuga starts. Dikshit > has > > translated Tapah as season, but that would mean that there would be > > twelve seasons instead of six seasons in a year. If Tapah is also > taken > > as the name of the lunar month instead of the solar month, then Magha > > will have to be taken as a solar month, since Punarukti in the same > > mantra is repugnant to the Vedic ethos..That means that Tapah is the > > solar month of Shishira Ritu---and not of Greeshma ritu, as some > > muladhara-walas would like us to believe! > > > > > If u try to ascertain the longitudes of stars and also the tithi > > etc. for January 1, 1400 BCE fropm Vasishtha and Mahesh/ganesh > programs, > > u will find that as on January 1, 1400 BCE, the New Moon was really > > conjunct Dhanishtha star, it was also away by 270 degrees from the > mean > > equator and equinox of that date! That means it was really Utarayana > as > > well as a New Moon in Dhanishtha on that date!Similarly, there is a > > mantra, perhaps seventh, in the same Vedanga Jyotisha which states > that > > from the day of Udagayana, days start increasing by ...prasthas. That > > certainly means that by Udagayana, the VJ meant nothning but > Uttarayana, > > since it is only from that day that the day starts increasin as > compared > > to nights, Winter Solstice being the shortest day of the year. > > > > > We also find references in the Yajurveda stating " madhuschai > > madhavashchai vasantikav ritu.. " etc. U will find a lot of material in > > 1999b.doc regarding the Vedic months being aligned to seasons. > > > > > > > > > > <The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many > > reference are available about lunar months and the word maasa can mean > > both moon and the month.> > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha is of an era of at least 1400 BCE. It is not an > > exact astronomical work at all! The duration of a solar year as per > that > > work is 366 days, which is neither sidereal nor tropical! The > > mothodology of calculating tithi etc. in that work is meant for > > calculating mean tithis and nakshatras and not the true ones! The > ending > > moments of nakshatras and tithis etc. as per that work are thus not > > accurate at all! However, they serve as a milepost for future > > guidelines, and those guidelines are that the Vedic calendar was > > seasonal, months were solar to start with and lunar synodic months > were > > pegged to the same.If we eliminate solar ingress of Madhu, Madhava > etc. > > and take both Madhu, Madhava as well as Chaitra, Vaishakha as lunar > > synodic months, we will be left with something like an Islamic > calendar! > > > > > We cannot ignore the two solstices and equinoxes at any cost! > They > > have to be given some names! That is why the Vj states that the > > Udagayana, the month of Tapah and Magha start simultaneously! There is > > every possibility that the ancient astronomers of India were not that > > adept in calculating the timings of exact phenomena of Uttarayana and > > Dakshinayana or Vasanta and Hemanta Sampat! They could be plus/minus > one > > day or may be even more from the actual timings of such phenomena! > > > > > I find references in the Puranas that it is difficult even for > > yogis to determine the exact timings of ayanas and vishuvas. (Pl. see > > 1999b..doc, rashi5.doc, BVB6.doc etc). It is a fact that on the day of > > Uttarayana the sun is " stationary " for a nano-second before starting > > coming down from the maximum Southern declination! Same is the case > with > > other ayana and sampat! The exact moments of those phenomena are for > > nano-seconds! It may be easy to find the exact timings of those > > phenomena with Xtreme Intel processors on the basis of data from > > NASA/JPL these days, but for Acharya Lagadha of at least fifteenth > > century BCE, that was a really difficult job! > > > > > We have, therefore, to see the spirit instead of the letter of > > such works and streamline our calendar in accordance with that spirit! > > > > > > > > > > <WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is > > proved by vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at > the > > solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control > the > > lunar months.> > > > > > I am unable to get the drift of your statement! There cannot be > an > > adhi or kshyaya lunar masa unless and until they are compared to > > something and that something is solar months! There can be a > thirteenth > > synodic lunar month as adhimasa in a year when there is a yardstick of > > regular twelve months in that very year! And that yardstick is twelve > > solar months of a seasonal year! Besides, it is not necessary that an > > adhimasa will fall always on the day of Uttarayana! That just is next > to > > impossible! > > > > > > > > > > <It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla pratipada > > and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha> > > > > > The year at the time of Vedanga Jyotisha started with > Uttarayana. > > And as already clarified, Acharya Lagadha had somehow determined a > > particular year when the Udagayana coincided with Magha Shukla Paksha. > > These days it is also a similar situation more or less---real Magha > > Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon after Uttarayana, which > is > > also known as the month of Tapah. However, because of precession, > > Uttarayana does not fall these days in Dhanishta but in an entirely > > different nakshatra. > > > > > <This itself shows the control was done by winter > > solstice,uttaryan. the fact that this point remained uttarayan for > over > > one thoousand years show that it was nirayan too.> > > > > > Why are u clining to the nirayana and sayana myths created by > > jyotishis? How can Uttarayana be nirayana or sayana when it is a > > seasonal phenomenon that has nothing to do with precession, leave > alone > > the so called ayanamsha? > > > > > <Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to Poush > > purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of rashis > > as you say> > > > > > That is exactly what is happening these days! Magha Shukla > paksha > > starts more or less one month after the start of real Magha Shukla > > paksha since these days we are not celebrating the Vedic or Vedanga > > Jyotisha Magha but Lahiri Magha! But then how does that justify our > > celebrating all the festivals on wrong days? > > > > > <Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.> > > > > > What culture are you talking about? In the real Vedic culture, > the > > words like nirayana and sayana do not exist at all since we do not > find > > them in any of the Puranas, leave alone the Vedas! So what r u talking > > about? Pl. do read my posts again! I have proved it with hundreds of > > proofs that nirayana is really niradhar and so is sayana! But since > the > > solar months like Madhu, Madhava or the Vedic lunar Chaitra, Vaishkha > > etc. are real astronomical phenomena, they are the only ones that are > > the real halmarks of the real Vedic culture!In a nutshell, the more u > > try to accommodate the so called Vedic jyotishis the more u will > defeat > > your own purpose! Pl., therefore, do come out of this stupor of > nirayana > > versus sayana mess and stop reapeating the same " 15 degrees forward > and > > fifteen degrees backward " theory again and again! > > > > > With regards,A K Kaul > > > > > PS I am still out of town and have talked about the VJ mantra > from > > my memory! Pl. do not impale me if there is some " typo " in the exact > > references! > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > In HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> > > wrote:>> Dear Kaul saheb,> To my knowlege vedic months were never > > solar.I have read that even shankra B. dixit has not been able > toprovide > > the vedic quote for solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been > > solar months, with the same names as the lunar ones.which is also > > doubtful to have same names for two different things. The lunar months > > were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are available > about > > lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the month..> WE > > do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by > > vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the > > solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control > the > > lunar months.It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla > > pratipada and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha.This itself > > shows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the fact that > > this > > > > > point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show that > it > > was nirayan too.Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted > to > > Poush purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of > > rashis as you say.> Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our > > culture.Also when the months were called as Chaitra, Baisakh,since > they > > were tied to nakshyatras, how can you say they were not nirayan?.Is > > tying to nakshyatras not making it nirayan.Off course, th e lunar > tithis > > could be both nirayan and sayan simultaneously, for over a thousand > > years as I have already explained in my previous mails.> Thanking > you,I > > remain> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla> > > > > ____________ _________ > > _________ __> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > To: > HinduCalendar@ > > . com> Monday, April 20, 2009 12:26:37 PM> Subject: > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> > > Namaskar!> Vedic solar months, whether u name them > > > > > Tapah, Tapasya etc. or Magha, Phalguna etc. have absolutely > > nothing to do with New and Full Moons. They have, on the other hand, > > everything to do with the two equinoxes and solstices! That means that > > Vedic solar months are directly related to seasons!> On the other > hand, > > it is the Vedic lunar synodic months that are dependent on solar > months. > > As and when there are more than one New Moon between two solar > > ingresses, there is a lunar adhika masa! As and when there is no New > > moon between two solar months, that is a kshyaya masa! > If u delink > the > > lunar synodic months from seasonal solar months, u will be following > the > > Hejira i.e. Muslim calendar! Since the real Vedic lunar months are > > related to seasonal solar months, so called nirayana lunar months are > > equally an Islamic calendar since those months are not related to > > seasonal solar months but to Lahiri solar months!> > Now coming to the > > nirayana versus sayana myth! Solar months are neither nirayana nor > > > > > sayana, since that curse is meant only for Mesha, Vrisha etc. > > rashis! In fact the nirayana myth has been created by Hindu jyotihis > on > > the basis of the most monstrous astronomical work viz. Surya Sidhanta > by > > Maya the mlechha! Those jyotishis had to invent an anti-nirayana myth > > and they named that myth as sayana!> > Astronomically, there are no > > Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, since the Rashichakra itself is an > imaginary > > belt! Its components can never be real since if the sum total of the > > parts itself is imaginary, its ingredients are also imaginary! That > > obivates the possibility of niryana-versus- sayana myth even > > scientifically! > Regarding the Pauranic lore, whenever any Mesha, > > Vrihsa etc. Rashis have been mentioned, they are all related to > seasons! > > (Pl. see npj3.doc, BVB6.doc, 1999b.doc). As such, even the Pauranic > lore > > does not talk of any so called nirayana curse!> " Vedic astrologers " > > themselves are running after imaginary ayanamshas! There is no > > > > > astrological work, except the fake Brihat Parasharis galore, > that > > has talked of any Ayanamsha myth! It is therefore a moot point as to > > what Ayanamsha the authors of those wroks, right from Sphujidwaja' s > > Yavana Jatakam through Brihat Jatakam and Uttarakalarta or Jataka > > Paraijata or Manasagari etc. etc. to Mukunda Daivajnyas Triskanda > > Jyotisha used since no work on predictive astrology has talked about > any > > ayanamsha!> As such, why are are clamouring for an imaginary will of > the > > wisp, which will only scuttle your own efforts for reforming the Hindu > > calendar?> With regards,> A K Kaul> > HinduCalendar@ > . > > com, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Kaul Saheb,> > > > namaskar!To continue my discussion,let us coin a new word.The > authentic > > nirayan sankranti.When a nirayan sankranti has the right to represent > > the sayan sankranti, we may say it the authentic nirayan sankranti..If > > it has no right then it is not authorised.how does the > > > authority > > > > > come? It is given by the full moon zone.If the connected full > moon > > zone embraces the sayan sankrani too, then that nirayan sankranti has > > the authentic right to represent that sayan sankranti too.The present > > makar sankanti had the authentic right to represent the sayan > sankranti > > till 1400 AD.The reseaon is til then the connected full moon the Poush > > Purnima embraced the sayan sankranti every third year during its > > fluctuation. So if the puranas say makar sankranti for uttaryan during > > that period, it means the nirayan makar sankranti which had the > > authentic right to represent the sayan uttaryan.It did not mean the > > sayan uttarayan sankranti itself.This is proved by the practice > too.We> > > do> > magh snana till date on the nirayan sakranti.We cannot say it > was > > wrong to do so.Only the dead habit was carried over from the authentic > > days to the present, when that authentication is no more.This may be > > called as the inadvertant use of the custome. At present the > > > > > authentic makaar sankranti is the present dhanu sankranti. > Because > > the present Mangsir purnima does embrace the sayan sankranti giving > the > > authentic representation to Dhanu sankranti, as nirayan uttarayan, > being > > situated at the middle of the zone of Mangsir purnima.Thus the need to > > shift the name of Poush fullmoon to mangsir fullmoon, and the name of > > makar sankranti to the present Dhanu sankranti .This shifting of the > > name is to be done during calender reform process in the sayan > fashion, > > to uphold our dharma shastras, as suggested by SB Dixit.Then all > > problems are solved.The rashis can continue to remain in the new > positon > > for another 15 00- 2000 years.These rashis may be called> > as the > > epochal nirayan rashis.The old rashis as original rashis,as they are. > > The authentic representation of the nirayan sankranti is also restored > > by the new epochal rashis.The appropriate full moon which embraces the > > sayan sankranti is also restored.How do we get the > > > power > > > > > to shift the names like this. This is making use of the sayan > > system, which gives us the right to shift the names.In this way we go > on > > coordinating the epochal nirayan sankranti with the sayan sankrantis > > every 2150 years, and authorised them to represent the sayan > sankranti, > > which is the present practice. > > From the story which was narrated, > > this authority is given to Vishnu (or the nirayan sakranti) by Shiva( > > fullmoon) and Brahma (or sayan sakranti) does not get that > right.Brahma > > is the pole star, Vishnu is the sun.Thus solar nirayan sankranti gets > > the right to represent the full moon(shiva) i.e. to get worshipped, > but > > the sayn sankranti does not get that right.This is our present > practice > > too.Only calculation may be done on the basis of the sayan sakranti.> > > > > Have I been able to clarify? Please reply.thank you,> > Sincerely > > yours,> > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ > > __> > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ...>> > To: > > > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 > > 10:11:24 PM> > Re: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul saheb,> > I feel my previous reply was not to the > > point.Please let me express my viewpoint about sayan and nirayan.You > > will agree that when the two sankrantis are at the same point as in > the > > beginning, it is the same wether we say sayan or nirayan.They have the > > same meaning.In the same way with respect to festivals if both the > > sankranits are within the same fullmoon zone we do not have to bother > > wether it is sayan or nirayn, because to that fullmon both the sayana > > and the nirayan sankranits are meeting it, as it were, it is at the > same > > point as in the beginning.This realisation is important.Sayan and > > nirayan meeting at the same solar date occurs only may be one year (or > > for a few years they are not distinguishable) .But sayan and nirayan > > value for tithi is effective not only one or a few years, but is > > > valid > > > > > for over 1000 years if considered on one side, and taking both > > sides it is valid even for 2000years.This is very important to > > understand.Most people do> not> > seem to understand that.> > Thus my > > claim is that during the vedanga jyotish period it was not sayan as > many > > people are prone to think it was both sayan and nirayan at the same > > time.It was sayan and nirayan both at the same time even during the > > rashi period too, if understood in a special way.How is this > possible?> > > > Now we have to come to understand nirayan sakranti with a special > > meaning.The special meaning is this, nirayan sankranti is the middle > > point of full moon zone. This is more exact meaning than the nirayan > > sankranit is as attached to a certain star.The fullmoon is attached to > > two or three nakshyatras and the nirayan sankranti is at the middle of > > the two or three nakshyatras as the middle of the fullmoon zone..To > > understand what I am trying to say,one should get the habit of knowing > > > > > that the sankranti and the fullmoon zone are at 180 degrees > > apart.for example mesh sanrkanti is opposite(or at 180 degrees) to the > > mid point of chitraa nakshyatara. this habit is very good to undertand > > the coordinated system of calender reform.It is necessary to know > about > > the concept of integrated sakranti- fullmon zone.Here in Nepal we have > > made drawing of the 12 sankranti-full moon zones. they are named as > > 1.mesh sankranti- chaitra full moon zone 2.Vrish> > sankranti-Baisakh > > full moon zone etc etc.upto 12 sankranti-fullmoon zones.> > AS long as > > the sayan sakranti is within one full moon zone then the tropical and > > the sidereal sankrantis being within the same fullmoon have the dual > > meaning of it being both sayan and nirayan at the same time.may e I > stop > > here.but i wil make it clearer next time.thanking you,> > Sincerely > > yours,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ > _________ > > __> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..>> > To: > > > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 > > 6:52:13 PM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> > Namaskar!> > I am still out of town > and > > will be back in Delhi on April 23. I am just tryinhg to catch with the > > backlog from my mobile phone internet, lest people consider me a spent > > force!> > However, the more I read your mails, the more amused I am! > > > > > U can decide Vedic rashis being sayana or nirayana only after u can > > quote the Vedic mantras that talk of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis! There > > are no such curses in the Rik Jyotisham, Yajur Jyotisham or even > Atharva > > Veda Parishishta, leave alone any of the Vedas! Thus Mesha etc. rashis > > are conspicuous by their absence from the Vedic lore!> > Some " Vedic > > astrologers " call Srimad Bhagavatam as Panchama Veda! They may be > right! > > But when it comes to discussion about the nature of Rahsi in that > > Panchama Veda, they start saying blah, blah, blah! > > > > > What types of rashis are in the Puranas will be clear from > > 1999b.doc and also BVB6.doc. All those Pauranic rashis are so called > > sayana!> > Personally, I have yet to find any mention of any so called > > nirayana Rashichakra in any of the Puranas or even the Sidhantas! If u > > have come across such references, pl. do enlighten me!> > With > regards,> > > > A K Kaul> > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla > > <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Prashant Pandeyji,> > > <But for > > Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay > > for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).>> > > > > > For your devotion to > your > > dharma, I want to tell you a famous story of our dharma explaining the > > importance and limitation of sayan sankranti and nirayan sankrantis.It > > is said once a quarrel started between Brahmaji and Vishnuji as to who > > was the greater between them.The quarrel went unsettled for ten > thousand > > divya varsha.Then suddenly there appeard a flame of > > > > > light between them and both were surprised to see this third > thing > > appearing.They were curious toknow waht it was. Branhma anted to find > > where its top as and flew upwards and vishunu wanted to find its > rootor > > bottom and went downwards..Later Vishnu appeared saying he could not > > find the bottom.Then Brhama appeared saying he found the top and > brought > > with him witnesses one of which was the kamadhenu cow.Now shiva > appeared > > efore them and said,Brahama told al lie saying he found the top > without > > findngg it, so he shall not be worshippeed. but because Vishnu > > admeiitted the truth, he will b> > > worshipped.Theyn say taht is the > > reason why we have no temple towordhip Brahmaji.> > > Here follows the > > astrological meaning of the story.Brahma is pole star or north > > star.Vishnu is the sun whom we call Surya narayan.The pole star is > high > > in the sky above the north pole.> > > From the pole star looking down > we > > see the earth, which is also known as the cow, > > > > > kamadhenu.Thus looking from the earth or north pole up towards > the > > sky,the pole star is apparently seen as the top of the sky.But the > truth > > is that the lunar pole or the centre of the lunar orbit ie. bary > centre > > is the actual top, which is Shiva himself.Now we should know that the > > sayan sankranti is related to the pole star or its postion. The > nirayan > > sankranti is related to the sun and the solar sankranti.This is why we > > give importance to the nirayan sankranit and not to the sayan > sankranti > > for religious purpose and also in astrology, although we take the > sayan > > positon for the actual calculations of the heavenly bodies etc.> > > I > > hope I have expresssed what I wanted to say.> > > thanking you,> > > > > Sincerely yours,> > > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > Prashant Pandey > > <praspandey@ ....>> > > HinduCalendar> > > Sent: > > Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:18:15 AM> > > Subject: > > > [HinduCalendar] > > > > > Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I > recently > > heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan > system > > for the celebration of their festivals..This is what worries me..>> > > > > > > > > yeahoooo> > > > > > ting ding ding ding ding !> > > > > > Sirji > > this is the reality of our HINDU DHARMA. Believe me!> > > > > > We had > > tropical calendar in past, this our Dharma Grantha says.That is our > > ancient Vedic Calendar in true sense.> > > > > > Sir for your kind > > information south indian's are best in astrology and about knowing the > > ancient facts of Hindu Dharma.> > > > > > I was also aware that South > > Indians will start this reform and will reinstate our vedic calendar > > because they are the best, and they have courage.> > > > > > All naadi > > astrological works are from south india.Thy have done beautifull > > research, no doubt, i should say they are best in the world in > > astrology.> > > > > > We can abuse Kaulji but he is correct in his > > > > > research.S B Dixit, i think also South Indian, he has also said > > same thing and now in South India, some temples have reinstaed the > Vedic > > Calendar.Good News!> > > > > > I am also also ardent follower of > Nirayan > > (Sidereal) sytem(also of tropical).> > > > > > But for Hindu Dharma, i > > will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray > pyaaray > > dharm ke liye).> > > > > > Thanks again for Good News!> > > > > > Now > i > > am happy and can sleep well.> > > > > > Regs,> > > Prashant Pandey> > > > > > > > > Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com, > > Prashant <praspandey@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Sunil > Nairji,> > > > > > As you suggest?I stop here, since you are irritated > unnecessarily > > without searching for the truth.But let me remind you that I am not in > > favoour of pure sayan system as you understand.? I want to protect and > > presearve?the nirayan system in a reseasonble way.The reason?I want to > > do this?is because sayan is trying to > > > > > overcome our nirayan culture..I recently heard that in Tamil > nadu > > 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of > > their festivals.This is what worries me.Well if you want them to > > increase and increase, it is upto you.You may please check from Robert > > wilkinson of the WAves forum, if it is true or not.Also know that > > Mr.Kaul has?said both sayan and nirayan Niradhar.Any way, at present I > > am in no mood to continue with this subject here either. Thanking > you,?I > > say goodbye,> > > > ?sincerely yours,> > > > Hari Malla.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > > > > sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@ >> > > > vedic astrology@ > > . com> > > > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:48:49 PM> > > > > > > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@ > > . com, " sunil nair " > > > > <astro_tellerkerala > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > dear hari malla ji and sreenadh ji> > > > > > > > > > > malla ji says shri kaul ji is ready to change his attitude or > may > > b> > > > malla ji can make it happen ,kaul jis confessions and > > conversion are> > > > always welcome> > > > > > > > But the problem > wont > > end there> > > > > > > > First of all he shud decide/agree what is > Hindu > > astrological> > > > -astronomical concept and he shud discard his > > support for sayana western> > > > zodiacs and praising of their > > contributions .His calendrical concepts> > > > are based on a moving > > vishuva bindu ,so the rasi belt ( the path ) moves> > > > with the > > changes in vishuva bindu which is western concept not indian> > > > > > jyothishchakra ( hindu /baudha /jaina /charvaka etc ) .indian concept> > > > > > > is based on nakshtra and fixed point of meshadi and aswinadi > aramba> > > > > > chart> > > > > > > > ,if malla ji thinks it is varahamihira > strted > > it i think he is wrong> > > > ,pls refer parasara hora ,chapter 3 > > > > > shloka numbrs 3 to 7 ,nakshtrani> > > > grhanam ----- to meshadi > > namaka rasaya syu part .> > > > > > > > so for us rasi chakra is the > > path for grahas and nakshtras and other> > > > points required for a > > jyothichakra .And it has to b fixed one .And for> > > > us rasi and > > bhava is imp .lagna and Houses decide every thing and> > > > > ownerships > > /shodasa vargas and all other mathematical points like ucha> > > > > > ,neecha and even gulika/mrityu sputa etc all r based on a fixed rasi> > > > > > > chart .where as if we can use kaul's version then path is moving > > and> > > > grahas moving and nakshtras moving tho mathematicaly graha > > position ( i> > > > mean stithi ) point is same in both concepts which > > has diffrnt> > > > parameters ,so logicaly mathematicaly both may b > > correct apparently but> > > > cannot compromise because acccording his > > concept or supporting> > > > arguemnts will take us to think that the > > road and vehicles both r moving> > > > ( zodiac is moving back > > > and > > > > > grahas are moving forward ) .So when some> > > > one is > travelling > > we hav to say delhi has come to him than he reached to> > > > delhi by > > road ,still the question of timing such purticular event in> > > > > > advance how it is possible when both r moving ??why we need to> > > > > > complicate every thing ??> > > > > > > > so i hope malla ji may revise > > his views .> > > > > > > > also according to vedic concept the vishnu > > nabhi is important in> > > > thinking abt creation of universe and > here > > the moola nakshtra ( as it is> > > > base or root ) and jyeshta ( > eldest > > one ) is also has to b considered as> > > > based on it all nakshtra > > concept is based than some one interpret some> > > > vedic mantras as > > kritikati naksktras in some time of vedic periods is> > > > the > strting > > point ,it has diffrnt meaning may b ,and vishuva bindu> > > > cannot b > a > > strting point when thinking abt creation of universe as it is> > > > > the > > basis of rai chakra ( rahu -sikhi chakra )> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so many things accepted as vedic will b diffrnt frm > > kaulian argumnts> > > > and i dont think ther is any chance of > > reconciling both arguemnts .> > > > > > > > so he has only 2 choice > > .either discard his arguemnts or go ahed> > > > without any use except > > name calling and a chance to call astrologers as> > > > frauds in the > > name of a impractical calender ,like wat he was doing for> > > > > almost > > quarter century .> > > > > > > > let us forget abt he abused ancient > > rishies / acharyas and dharma gurus> > > > and sankaracharyas .Also > > haunting any one who is interested in astrology> > > > by gate > crashing > > technics and guerrilla technics .> > > > > > > > rgrds sunil nair .> > > > > > > > > > > Om shreem mahalaxmai namah .> > > > > > > > --- In > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > > > sreesog@ > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Hari Malla ji,> > > > > //> Thank you > for > > the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most of > us > > > > > lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.//> > > > > > > > Sorry... I think this itself is the very thing he lacks! He is NOT> > > > > > > > devoted to the purpose of calendar reform, but just to the his> > > > > > > roadside> > > > > rowdy bad mouth attitude against astrologers and > > astrology alone. If> > > > > ever he been dedicated to the subject of > > Vedic calender reform even> > > > for> > > > > at least 3 months or so > > he would have prepared the the skeleton frame> > > > > work of the > same, > > and also might have written good descriptive article> > > > > about > its > > components, organization, co-relation, purpose etc. He is> > > > yet> > > > > > > > to implement even these tasks, which a knowledeable individual > who > > may> > > > > dedicate 3 months to this subject may do. This not only > > prove that he> > > > is> > > > > incapable, but also that he got NO > > DEVOTION to the purpose of vedic> > > > > calender reform. Mark it.> > > > > > > > // I have requested him .... Hopefully > > > he > > > > > may agree....... I think it> > > > > may be worthwhile to talk > and > > negotiate.// > > > > > Hopes are always good. Whether it be Sunil > > Nair ji, Sunil> > > > > Bhattacharjya ji or Me, we all once had a > > respect for this man, which> > > > we> > > > > all lost in due course > > during our repeated interactions with that foul> > > > > mouth, > without > > constructive attitude and respect for the contributions> > > > > of > our > > ancistors. You can have your turn, and wish you all the best in> > > > > > > > your sincere efforts. > > > > > //If he comes to term with somethng > > which is commonly acceptable why> > > > not> > > > > go along with > > him?//> > > > > Yes, certainly if he wish he can join us and come > along > > with. Or if> > > > > you wish you can join him and go along with. But > > the point is the> > > > > purpose of evey stream, school of knowledge > > and individuals differ and> > > > > the group is just a meeting place. > > The true contributions are always> > > > > done by > > > > > individuals and is individualistic. This being so - neither I> > > > > > > > need the help of Kaul nor Kaul need the help of me. The same could > > be> > > > > true about the contibution of anyone with in this group or > > outside.> > > > > //After all we must divide our work.//> > > > > Have > > your ever tried it (especially related astrological research)?> > > > > > > > And what was the result? What are the lessons you learned from that> > > > > > > > experience? We all would be eager to know. If you have ever > > tried> > > > > the same, you would sure be able to answer those > > questions. But if you> > > > > haven't ever tried the same - then your > > advice does not hold any> > > > water.> > > > > Any way I am in > > support of that statement, but at times when it> > > > comes> > > > > > to > > astrological research, I don't find anyone to divide my work with!> > > > > > > > > > > > May be I may change this opinion as I see more sincere > at > > the same> > > > time> > > > > knowledgeable > > > individuals. > > > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla> > > > > > > > harimalla@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadhji,> > > > > > > > Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > > > > most of us lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender > reform.> > > > > > > After all we must divide our work.If he comes to term with > > somethng> > > > > which is commonly acceptable why not go along with > > him?> > > > > > I feel we can work something which harmonises all, > which > > keeps up> > > > our> > > > > nirayan tradition and also correct the > > times of festivals..The rashis> > > > > must continue, as much of our > > religious literature and the present> > > > > jyotish system is based > > and has been written using them. I have> > > > > requested him not try > > to get rid of the rashis and also tolerate the> > > > > nirayan system > > in a coordinated fashion with the sayan system.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully he may agree.I have not been in contact with him for > > some> > > > > time.Shree Sunil Bahatacharyaji, thinks he may not agree > > overnight.But> > > > I> > > > > think it may be worthwhile to talk and > > negotiate.thank you...> > > > > > Sincerely yours,> > > > > > Hari > > Malla> > > > >> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions > of > > this message have been removed]> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded > message > > ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to > > your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. / invite/> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click > here. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 dear respected bhaskar ji ha ha ,sure thanks for the complimnts sure we shud get back to astrology soon and these kaulians life in this forum is just a pressing of a button away ,now just cooling off in this hot summer by playing with them thanks and regrds sunil nair , "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish wrote:>> > Dear Shri Sunil Nair ji,> > I am beginning to like your mails these days for other reasons too. They> contain the right amount of humour, pun, and cynicism and good doses> too. It makes enjoyable reading.> > These people have only one agenda 24 x 7 and makes me wonder when they> work, what do they work and how they mantain a living. Which is why I> rarely enter such exchanges and stopped these days, because realised> that this is endless with them. But we have certainly better things to> do. They become neither good astronomers, neither good Panchang makers,> neither astrologers and neither good critics. What they will become by> the end of their lives only God knows.> > We are at least following one line of learning - astrology. But these> good people are into changing everything and everybody.> > I was missing you for a long stretch of period. Its good to see your> regular postings now, on this Group. This is the way we can be near and> in touch though far by distance.> > warm wishes,> > Bhaskar.> > > > > , "sunil nair"> astro_tellerkerala@ wrote:> >> >> >> >> > dear respected bhaskar ji> >> > i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the> name> > of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything> and> > even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs ,becauase i hav> so> > many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting> > our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for> many> > to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness> in> > our approach and activities and they think it as weakness> >> >> >> > if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to> > strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme> > arrogance .> >> > did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way .> >> > malla ji says> >> > """we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi> or> > lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras(> > sidereal maghaa nakshyatra)."""""> >> > """"Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in> > dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla> > pakshya and uttrayan start together""""> >> > sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra> >> > just waisting time of others and it will come around feb 6th to sun to> > atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini> > nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to> > dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now> they> > will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical> > calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible> >> > and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti> ??> > where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ??> >> >> >> > kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my> > foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough> >> > is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its> > hands at our wish and will> >> >> >> >> >> > where is pole star did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making> > ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical> > treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas> >> >> >> > they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever> contributed> > to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world> > at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced> them> > first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this> sastra> > has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of> > calenders and hindu festivals .> >> >> >> > he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and> gone> > to bananas> >> >> >> > now again coming with blah blah blah theories .> >> > when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can> > twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer> > even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt> > approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha> > pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions> >> >> >> > it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with> > them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal> > daiorria> >> >> >> > rgrds sunil nair> >> >> >> >> > , "Bhaskar"> > bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote:> > >> > >> > > Respected Sirs,> > >> > > What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of> > > Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years> ?> > >> > > If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in> > > future too ?> > >> > > regards,> > >> > > Bhaskar.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > , Hari Malla> > > harimalla@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Goelji,> > > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu> > for> > > the interest.> > > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This> is> > > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our> solution.The> > > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has> now> > > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then> only> > it> > > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original> > > requirement.Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise> > toether> > > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa> > sukla> > > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement> of> > > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these> > > factors no more meet simultaneously.Thus the need to reform it to> its> > > original status.> > > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four> > > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole> > > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa> > > nakshyatra).Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the> > sun,> > > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why> not> > > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This> > is> > > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the> > same> > > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish> > > intact.> > > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it> > > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and> turia(nakshyatras).> > > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we> > > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion> > > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar> > months> > > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and> > > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan> > > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra> > > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from> > > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift> > both> > > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis> and> > > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is> harming> > > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on> > > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be> > the> > > best type of people in the world.> > > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of> us.Thank> > > you,> > > > sincerely yours,> > > > Hari malla> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ________________________________> > > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@> > > > Hari Malla harimalla@> > > > Cc: astrologyandremedies ; ancient indian astrology> > > > > > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM> > > > Re: Calender reform> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Friend,> > > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah> > and> > > other> > > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical> based> > > calender and> > > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time ,> > mean> > > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was> > > > 180 deg 3sec.> > > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious> > > requirements of any group or sect in India.> > > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point> in> > a> > > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose> > > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start> separating> > at> > > a mean rate of 50".3 per year.> > > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed.> > > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram> > Sambat> > > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern> > Astronomical> > > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre.> > > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in> > an> > > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'.> > > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement.> > > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on> > tropical> > > co-ordinates.> > > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also> > > available.> > > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about.> > > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is> free> > > to do so.> > > >> > > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that> we> > > are now using most modern> > > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We> now> > > follow geocentric> > > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic.> > > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand> the> > > effect of Helio- centric> > > > co-ordinates.> > > > Regards,> > > > G.K.GOEL> > > > Ph: 09350311433> > > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR> > > > NEW DELHI-110 076> > > > INDIA> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ________________________________> > > > Hari Malla harimalla@> > > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@> > > > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM> > > > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Goelji,> > > > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and> > > tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are> > > certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is> > > bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are> > > celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar> seasons.If> > > this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is> > > violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This> makes> > > it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time> > to> > > time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by> > > Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this> > > merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that> the> > > lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and> > > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not?> thanking> > > you ,I remain,> > > > sincerely yours,> > > > Hari Malla> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----> > > > "harimalla@" harimalla@> > > > HinduCalendar > > > > Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:15:13 AM> > > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Dear Prashanta Pandeyji,> > > > I think we have come to some serious decision making point.Upon> this> > > point hinges the whole success and failure of our calendar reform> > > proposal.plese check the version of vedanga jyotish; it says,> > > > When the sun is dhanistha, the uttrayan, the month of maagha and> the> > > sukla pakshya of tapa start together..> > > > You will see that the date of tapa sukla pratipada means that tapa> > is> > > a lunar tropical month.Month of Maagha also means it is a lunar> month,> > > with the full moon tied with maghaa nakshyatra.This is sideral. Thus> > the> > > lunar month defined here is both sidereal and tropical at the same> > time.> > > > This is also the reason why we have to compromise between sidereal> > and> > > tropical sytem.Lunar months are tropical and sideral both at the> same> > > time. That is the reson why I propose 6 degrees ayanamsa to be still> > > there but niryan sankranti is to be brought near the tropical> > sankranti> > > for coordination of the two.You also know that our festivals are> > > celebrated by tithis.Thus we have to understand the behaviour of our> > > tithi and its month to solve our problem of calender reform. Thus> > there> > > is no escape but to compromise both tropical and sideral..> > > > This was the intention of the story of Brahma and vishnu> quarreling> > > with each other for a lo;ng time till finally they were coordinated> by> > > Shivaji..Shivaji also said that vishnu is to be worshipped and not> > > brahma.This means we have to celebrate our festivals by nirayan> > sakranti> > > and not by sayan sankranti.But they must be witin the range of the> > same> > > full moon so Shiva can coordinate them.This coordiantion you have> > called> > > as compromise.I say it should be done, as it is our practice in the> > > past.thank you,> > > > Sincerely yours,> > > > Hari Malla> > > >> > > > HinduCalendar, "Prashant Pandey"> > <praspandey@> > > ...> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Hari Mallaji,> > > > >> > > > > Sir in my view you are wrong in making your views but i respect> > your> > > efforts.> > > > >> > > > > Tapa, Tapasya can't be lunar.> > > > >> > > > > Regs,> > > > > Prashant Pandey> > > > >> > > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@>> > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Kaul saheb,> > > > > > I?have checked it in vedanga jyotish and it?is the sixth sloka> > and> > > it says the month of maagha and the sukla padkshya of tapa.Thus> these> > > two refer to the same lunar month, tapa used for the pakshya and> > maagha> > > used for the name of the month.I understand tapa as old lunar month> > > denoting season, here tapa is used for pakshya andthus it can never> be> > > soalr month.maagha also can never be solar because the full moon lis> > > linked to magghaa nskshyatra.Only lunar month have full moons.Thus> > both> > > tapa and maaagha are lunar.So tapa has been ussed for lunar seasonal> > > month or pakshya and maagha for the newly formed sidereal lunar> month.> > > Thus one is seasonal and the other is sidereal.Not one as solar and> > the> > > other as lunar.> > > > > > Uttaryan? with sun at dhanishta is unmistakable, ?I> agree.Since> > > only the lunar month and date?was there, the intention to fix the> > lunar> > > uttarayn date is also indicated, when it is said that at the same> > time?> > > magha month and tapa?sukla partipada (meanig maagha sukla pratipada)> > > occurs.> > > > > > Madhuschai Madhavaschai vasantikav ritu, means lunar> > vasanta.Those> > > days since only lunar months were there, one need not say lunar or> > > solar.That was the only type of month althoough the year was always> > > solar marked by teh solstice only.Solar year and lunar months are> the> > > natural things in nature being true natural cycles.?That is, in my> > view,> > > why they had the adhimas system right from the beginning of the> vedic> > > culture, to?match the lunar months?with the solar year.Solar months> > were> > > conveniently made? at 30 degrees each, later on, to approximate the> > > lunar months, with the help of the rashis.They were not in the> > > beginning.> > > > > > The vedic months could never be islamic- like because they> > always> > > had adhimases right from the beginning.They also had 19 or 38 or 95> > year> > > cycles to control it further, the left overs.Thus we should never> > think> > > of having islamic type of?months.They had lunar seasons and lunar> > ayans> > > and lunar years.Moslems do not have lunar seasons and ayans.?> > > > > > More in my next mail. thanking you,> > > > > > Sincerelyyours,> > > > > > Hari Malla> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>> > > > > > hinducalendar> > > > > > Saturday, April 25, 2009 11:06:21 AM> > > > > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > HinduCalendar, "Avtar Krishen Kaul"> > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,Namaskar!> > > > > > < To my knowlege vedic months were never solar.I have read> that> > > even shankra B. dixit has not been able toprovide the vedic quote> for> > > solar monthsa and only guessed there may have been solar months,> with> > > the same names as the lunar ones.which is also doubtful to have same> > > names for two different things. >> > > > > > There is a mantra in the Vedanga Jyotisha, perhaps 5th mantra,> > > which states that when the sun and the moon conjoin in Danishtha, it> > is> > > Uttarayana, Tapah and Magha and a new five year yuga starts. Dikshit> > has> > > translated Tapah as season, but that would mean that there would be> > > twelve seasons instead of six seasons in a year. If Tapah is also> > taken> > > as the name of the lunar month instead of the solar month, then> Magha> > > will have to be taken as a solar month, since Punarukti in the same> > > mantra is repugnant to the Vedic ethos..That means that Tapah is the> > > solar month of Shishira Ritu---and not of Greeshma ritu, as some> > > muladhara-walas would like us to believe!> > > > > > If u try to ascertain the longitudes of stars and also the> tithi> > > etc. for January 1, 1400 BCE fropm Vasishtha and Mahesh/ganesh> > programs,> > > u will find that as on January 1, 1400 BCE, the New Moon was really> > > conjunct Dhanishtha star, it was also away by 270 degrees from the> > mean> > > equator and equinox of that date! That means it was really Utarayana> > as> > > well as a New Moon in Dhanishtha on that date!Similarly, there is a> > > mantra, perhaps seventh, in the same Vedanga Jyotisha which states> > that> > > from the day of Udagayana, days start increasing by ...prasthas.> That> > > certainly means that by Udagayana, the VJ meant nothning but> > Uttarayana,> > > since it is only from that day that the day starts increasin as> > compared> > > to nights, Winter Solstice being the shortest day of the year.> > > > > > We also find references in the Yajurveda stating "madhuschai> > > madhavashchai vasantikav ritu.." etc. U will find a lot of material> in> > > 1999b.doc regarding the Vedic months being aligned to seasons.> > > > > >> > > > > > <The lunar months were confirmed also by the fact that many> > > reference are available about lunar months and the word maasa can> mean> > > both moon and the month.>> > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha is of an era of at least 1400 BCE. It is not> an> > > exact astronomical work at all! The duration of a solar year as per> > that> > > work is 366 days, which is neither sidereal nor tropical! The> > > mothodology of calculating tithi etc. in that work is meant for> > > calculating mean tithis and nakshatras and not the true ones! The> > ending> > > moments of nakshatras and tithis etc. as per that work are thus not> > > accurate at all! However, they serve as a milepost for future> > > guidelines, and those guidelines are that the Vedic calendar was> > > seasonal, months were solar to start with and lunar synodic months> > were> > > pegged to the same.If we eliminate solar ingress of Madhu, Madhava> > etc.> > > and take both Madhu, Madhava as well as Chaitra, Vaishakha as lunar> > > synodic months, we will be left with something like an Islamic> > calendar!> > > > > > We cannot ignore the two solstices and equinoxes at any cost!> > They> > > have to be given some names! That is why the Vj states that the> > > Udagayana, the month of Tapah and Magha start simultaneously! There> is> > > every possibility that the ancient astronomers of India were not> that> > > adept in calculating the timings of exact phenomena of Uttarayana> and> > > Dakshinayana or Vasanta and Hemanta Sampat! They could be plus/minus> > one> > > day or may be even more from the actual timings of such phenomena!> > > > > > I find references in the Puranas that it is difficult even for> > > yogis to determine the exact timings of ayanas and vishuvas. (Pl.> see> > > 1999b..doc, rashi5.doc, BVB6.doc etc). It is a fact that on the day> of> > > Uttarayana the sun is "stationary" for a nano-second before starting> > > coming down from the maximum Southern declination! Same is the case> > with> > > other ayana and sampat! The exact moments of those phenomena are for> > > nano-seconds! It may be easy to find the exact timings of those> > > phenomena with Xtreme Intel processors on the basis of data from> > > NASA/JPL these days, but for Acharya Lagadha of at least fifteenth> > > century BCE, that was a really difficult job!> > > > > > We have, therefore, to see the spirit instead of the letter of> > > such works and streamline our calendar in accordance with that> spirit!> > > > > >> > > > > > <WE do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is> > > proved by vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at> > the> > > solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control> > the> > > lunar months.>> > > > > > I am unable to get the drift of your statement! There cannot> be> > an> > > adhi or kshyaya lunar masa unless and until they are compared to> > > something and that something is solar months! There can be a> > thirteenth> > > synodic lunar month as adhimasa in a year when there is a yardstick> of> > > regular twelve months in that very year! And that yardstick is> twelve> > > solar months of a seasonal year! Besides, it is not necessary that> an> > > adhimasa will fall always on the day of Uttarayana! That just is> next> > to> > > impossible!> > > > > >> > > > > > <It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla> pratipada> > > and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha>> > > > > > The year at the time of Vedanga Jyotisha started with> > Uttarayana.> > > And as already clarified, Acharya Lagadha had somehow determined a> > > particular year when the Udagayana coincided with Magha Shukla> Paksha.> > > These days it is also a similar situation more or less---real Magha> > > Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon after Uttarayana, which> > is> > > also known as the month of Tapah. However, because of precession,> > > Uttarayana does not fall these days in Dhanishta but in an entirely> > > different nakshatra.> > > > > > <This itself shows the control was done by winter> > > solstice,uttaryan. the fact that this point remained uttarayan for> > over> > > one thoousand years show that it was nirayan too.>> > > > > > Why are u clining to the nirayana and sayana myths created by> > > jyotishis? How can Uttarayana be nirayana or sayana when it is a> > > seasonal phenomenon that has nothing to do with precession, leave> > alone> > > the so called ayanamsha?> > > > > > <Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was shifted to> Poush> > > purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import of> rashis> > > as you say>> > > > > > That is exactly what is happening these days! Magha Shukla> > paksha> > > starts more or less one month after the start of real Magha Shukla> > > paksha since these days we are not celebrating the Vedic or Vedanga> > > Jyotisha Magha but Lahiri Magha! But then how does that justify our> > > celebrating all the festivals on wrong days?> > > > > > <Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of our culture.>> > > > > > What culture are you talking about? In the real Vedic culture,> > the> > > words like nirayana and sayana do not exist at all since we do not> > find> > > them in any of the Puranas, leave alone the Vedas! So what r u> talking> > > about? Pl. do read my posts again! I have proved it with hundreds of> > > proofs that nirayana is really niradhar and so is sayana! But since> > the> > > solar months like Madhu, Madhava or the Vedic lunar Chaitra,> Vaishkha> > > etc. are real astronomical phenomena, they are the only ones that> are> > > the real halmarks of the real Vedic culture!In a nutshell, the more> u> > > try to accommodate the so called Vedic jyotishis the more u will> > defeat> > > your own purpose! Pl., therefore, do come out of this stupor of> > nirayana> > > versus sayana mess and stop reapeating the same "15 degrees forward> > and> > > fifteen degrees backward" theory again and again!> > > > > > With regards,A K Kaul> > > > > > PS I am still out of town and have talked about the VJ mantra> > from> > > my memory! Pl. do not impale me if there is some "typo" in the exact> > > references!> > > > > > AKK> > > > > >> > > > > > In HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@>> > > wrote:>> Dear Kaul saheb,> To my knowlege vedic months were never> > > solar.I have read that even shankra B. dixit has not been able> > toprovide> > > the vedic quote for solar monthsa and only guessed there may have> been> > > solar months, with the same names as the lunar ones.which is also> > > doubtful to have same names for two different things. The lunar> months> > > were confirmed also by the fact that many reference are available> > about> > > lunar months and the word maasa can mean both moon and the month..>> WE> > > do not need solar months to get soli-lunar months.This is proved by> > > vedanga jyotish. It is mentioned that adhimas were held at the> > > solistices only, meaning the solar months were not there to control> > the> > > lunar months.It is also said vedanga jyotish began with magh sukla> > > pratipada and the sun being at the beginning of dhanistha.This> itself> > > shows the control was done by winter solstice,uttaryan. the fact> that> > > this> > > > > > point remained uttarayan for over one thoousand years show> that> > it> > > was nirayan too.Shankar B. dixit has said that magh snana was> shifted> > to> > > Poush purnima only after the coming of Sidhanta jyotish, ie import> of> > > rashis as you say.> Thus please do not doubt the nirayan nature of> our> > > culture.Also when the months were called as Chaitra, Baisakh,since> > they> > > were tied to nakshyatras, how can you say they were not nirayan?.Is> > > tying to nakshyatras not making it nirayan.Off course, th e lunar> > tithis> > > could be both nirayan and sayan simultaneously, for over a thousand> > > years as I have already explained in my previous mails.> Thanking> > you,I> > > remain> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla> > > > > ____________ _________> > > _________ __> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > To:> > HinduCalendar@> > > . com> Monday, April 20, 2009 12:26:37 PM> Subject:> > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,>> > > Namaskar!> Vedic solar months, whether u name them> > > > > > Tapah, Tapasya etc. or Magha, Phalguna etc. have absolutely> > > nothing to do with New and Full Moons. They have, on the other hand,> > > everything to do with the two equinoxes and solstices! That means> that> > > Vedic solar months are directly related to seasons!> On the other> > hand,> > > it is the Vedic lunar synodic months that are dependent on solar> > months.> > > As and when there are more than one New Moon between two solar> > > ingresses, there is a lunar adhika masa! As and when there is no New> > > moon between two solar months, that is a kshyaya masa! > If u delink> > the> > > lunar synodic months from seasonal solar months, u will be following> > the> > > Hejira i.e. Muslim calendar! Since the real Vedic lunar months are> > > related to seasonal solar months, so called nirayana lunar months> are> > > equally an Islamic calendar since those months are not related to> > > seasonal solar months but to Lahiri solar months!> > Now coming to> the> > > nirayana versus sayana myth! Solar months are neither nirayana nor> > > > > > sayana, since that curse is meant only for Mesha, Vrisha etc.> > > rashis! In fact the nirayana myth has been created by Hindu jyotihis> > on> > > the basis of the most monstrous astronomical work viz. Surya> Sidhanta> > by> > > Maya the mlechha! Those jyotishis had to invent an anti-nirayana> myth> > > and they named that myth as sayana!> > Astronomically, there are no> > > Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, since the Rashichakra itself is an> > imaginary> > > belt! Its components can never be real since if the sum total of the> > > parts itself is imaginary, its ingredients are also imaginary! That> > > obivates the possibility of niryana-versus- sayana myth even> > > scientifically! > Regarding the Pauranic lore, whenever any Mesha,> > > Vrihsa etc. Rashis have been mentioned, they are all related to> > seasons!> > > (Pl. see npj3.doc, BVB6.doc, 1999b.doc). As such, even the Pauranic> > lore> > > does not talk of any so called nirayana curse!> "Vedic astrologers"> > > themselves are running after imaginary ayanamshas! There is no> > > > > > astrological work, except the fake Brihat Parasharis galore,> > that> > > has talked of any Ayanamsha myth! It is therefore a moot point as to> > > what Ayanamsha the authors of those wroks, right from Sphujidwaja' s> > > Yavana Jatakam through Brihat Jatakam and Uttarakalarta or Jataka> > > Paraijata or Manasagari etc. etc. to Mukunda Daivajnyas Triskanda> > > Jyotisha used since no work on predictive astrology has talked about> > any> > > ayanamsha!> As such, why are are clamouring for an imaginary will of> > the> > > wisp, which will only scuttle your own efforts for reforming the> Hindu> > > calendar?> With regards,> A K Kaul> > HinduCalendar@> > .> > > com, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Kaul Saheb,> >> > > namaskar!To continue my discussion,let us coin a new word.The> > authentic> > > nirayan sankranti.When a nirayan sankranti has the right to> represent> > > the sayan sankranti, we may say it the authentic nirayan> sankranti..If> > > it has no right then it is not authorised.how does the> > > > authority> > > > > > come? It is given by the full moon zone.If the connected full> > moon> > > zone embraces the sayan sankrani too, then that nirayan sankranti> has> > > the authentic right to represent that sayan sankranti too.The> present> > > makar sankanti had the authentic right to represent the sayan> > sankranti> > > till 1400 AD.The reseaon is til then the connected full moon the> Poush> > > Purnima embraced the sayan sankranti every third year during its> > > fluctuation. So if the puranas say makar sankranti for uttaryan> during> > > that period, it means the nirayan makar sankranti which had the> > > authentic right to represent the sayan uttaryan.It did not mean the> > > sayan uttarayan sankranti itself.This is proved by the practice> > too.We>> > > do> > magh snana till date on the nirayan sakranti.We cannot say it> > was> > > wrong to do so.Only the dead habit was carried over from the> authentic> > > days to the present, when that authentication is no more.This may be> > > called as the inadvertant use of the custome. At present the> > > > > > authentic makaar sankranti is the present dhanu sankranti.> > Because> > > the present Mangsir purnima does embrace the sayan sankranti giving> > the> > > authentic representation to Dhanu sankranti, as nirayan uttarayan,> > being> > > situated at the middle of the zone of Mangsir purnima.Thus the need> to> > > shift the name of Poush fullmoon to mangsir fullmoon, and the name> of> > > makar sankranti to the present Dhanu sankranti .This shifting of the> > > name is to be done during calender reform process in the sayan> > fashion,> > > to uphold our dharma shastras, as suggested by SB Dixit.Then all> > > problems are solved.The rashis can continue to remain in the new> > positon> > > for another 15 00- 2000 years.These rashis may be called> > as the> > > epochal nirayan rashis.The old rashis as original rashis,as they> are.> > > The authentic representation of the nirayan sankranti is also> restored> > > by the new epochal rashis.The appropriate full moon which embraces> the> > > sayan sankranti is also restored.How do we get the> > > > power> > > > > > to shift the names like this. This is making use of the sayan> > > system, which gives us the right to shift the names.In this way we> go> > on> > > coordinating the epochal nirayan sankranti with the sayan sankrantis> > > every 2150 years, and authorised them to represent the sayan> > sankranti,> > > which is the present practice. > > From the story which was> narrated,> > > this authority is given to Vishnu (or the nirayan sakranti) by> Shiva(> > > fullmoon) and Brahma (or sayan sakranti) does not get that> > right.Brahma> > > is the pole star, Vishnu is the sun.Thus solar nirayan sankranti> gets> > > the right to represent the full moon(shiva) i.e. to get worshipped,> > but> > > the sayn sankranti does not get that right.This is our present> > practice> > > too.Only calculation may be done on the basis of the sayan> sakranti.>> > >> > > Have I been able to clarify? Please reply.thank you,> > Sincerely> > > yours,> > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________> _________> > > __> > Hari Malla <harimalla@ ...>> > To:> > > > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19,> 2009> > > 10:11:24 PM> > Re: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > >> >> > >> > > > Dear Kaul saheb,> > I feel my previous reply was not to the> > > point.Please let me express my viewpoint about sayan and nirayan.You> > > will agree that when the two sankrantis are at the same point as in> > the> > > beginning, it is the same wether we say sayan or nirayan.They have> the> > > same meaning.In the same way with respect to festivals if both the> > > sankranits are within the same fullmoon zone we do not have to> bother> > > wether it is sayan or nirayn, because to that fullmon both the> sayana> > > and the nirayan sankranits are meeting it, as it were, it is at the> > same> > > point as in the beginning.This realisation is important.Sayan and> > > nirayan meeting at the same solar date occurs only may be one year> (or> > > for a few years they are not distinguishable) .But sayan and nirayan> > > value for tithi is effective not only one or a few years, but is> > > > valid> > > > > > for over 1000 years if considered on one side, and taking both> > > sides it is valid even for 2000years.This is very important to> > > understand.Most people do> not> > seem to understand that.> > Thus> my> > > claim is that during the vedanga jyotish period it was not sayan as> > many> > > people are prone to think it was both sayan and nirayan at the same> > > time.It was sayan and nirayan both at the same time even during the> > > rashi period too, if understood in a special way.How is this> > possible?>> > > > Now we have to come to understand nirayan sakranti with a special> > > meaning.The special meaning is this, nirayan sankranti is the middle> > > point of full moon zone. This is more exact meaning than the nirayan> > > sankranit is as attached to a certain star.The fullmoon is attached> to> > > two or three nakshyatras and the nirayan sankranti is at the middle> of> > > the two or three nakshyatras as the middle of the fullmoon zone..To> > > understand what I am trying to say,one should get the habit of> knowing> > > > > > that the sankranti and the fullmoon zone are at 180 degrees> > > apart.for example mesh sanrkanti is opposite(or at 180 degrees) to> the> > > mid point of chitraa nakshyatara. this habit is very good to> undertand> > > the coordinated system of calender reform.It is necessary to know> > about> > > the concept of integrated sakranti- fullmon zone.Here in Nepal we> have> > > made drawing of the 12 sankranti-full moon zones. they are named as> > > 1.mesh sankranti- chaitra full moon zone 2.Vrish> >> sankranti-Baisakh> > > full moon zone etc etc.upto 12 sankranti-fullmoon zones.> > AS long> as> > > the sayan sakranti is within one full moon zone then the tropical> and> > > the sidereal sankrantis being within the same fullmoon have the dual> > > meaning of it being both sayan and nirayan at the same time.may e I> > stop> > > here.but i wil make it clearer next time.thanking you,> > Sincerely> > > yours,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________> > _________> > > __> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..>> > To:> > > > > > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19,> 2009> > > 6:52:13 PM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> > Namaskar!> > I am still out of town> > and> > > will be back in Delhi on April 23. I am just tryinhg to catch with> the> > > backlog from my mobile phone internet, lest people consider me a> spent> > > force!> > However, the more I read your mails, the more amused I am!> >> > >> > > U can decide Vedic rashis being sayana or nirayana only after u can> > > quote the Vedic mantras that talk of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis!> There> > > are no such curses in the Rik Jyotisham, Yajur Jyotisham or even> > Atharva> > > Veda Parishishta, leave alone any of the Vedas! Thus Mesha etc.> rashis> > > are conspicuous by their absence from the Vedic lore!> > Some "Vedic> > > astrologers" call Srimad Bhagavatam as Panchama Veda! They may be> > right!> > > But when it comes to discussion about the nature of Rahsi in that> > > Panchama Veda, they start saying blah, blah, blah!> > > > > > What types of rashis are in the Puranas will be clear from> > > 1999b.doc and also BVB6.doc. All those Pauranic rashis are so called> > > sayana!> > Personally, I have yet to find any mention of any so> called> > > nirayana Rashichakra in any of the Puranas or even the Sidhantas! If> u> > > have come across such references, pl. do enlighten me!> > With> > regards,>> > > > A K Kaul> > > > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla> > > <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Prashant Pandeyji,> > > <But> for> > > Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail> lenay> > > for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).>> > > > > > For your devotion to> > your> > > dharma, I want to tell you a famous story of our dharma explaining> the> > > importance and limitation of sayan sankranti and nirayan> sankrantis.It> > > is said once a quarrel started between Brahmaji and Vishnuji as to> who> > > was the greater between them.The quarrel went unsettled for ten> > thousand> > > divya varsha.Then suddenly there appeard a flame of> > > > > > light between them and both were surprised to see this third> > thing> > > appearing.They were curious toknow waht it was. Branhma anted to> find> > > where its top as and flew upwards and vishunu wanted to find its> > rootor> > > bottom and went downwards..Later Vishnu appeared saying he could not> > > find the bottom.Then Brhama appeared saying he found the top and> > brought> > > with him witnesses one of which was the kamadhenu cow.Now shiva> > appeared> > > efore them and said,Brahama told al lie saying he found the top> > without> > > findngg it, so he shall not be worshippeed. but because Vishnu> > > admeiitted the truth, he will b> > > worshipped.Theyn say taht is> the> > > reason why we have no temple towordhip Brahmaji.> > > Here follows> the> > > astrological meaning of the story.Brahma is pole star or north> > > star.Vishnu is the sun whom we call Surya narayan.The pole star is> > high> > > in the sky above the north pole.> > > From the pole star looking> down> > we> > > see the earth, which is also known as the cow,> > > > > > kamadhenu.Thus looking from the earth or north pole up towards> > the> > > sky,the pole star is apparently seen as the top of the sky.But the> > truth> > > is that the lunar pole or the centre of the lunar orbit ie. bary> > centre> > > is the actual top, which is Shiva himself.Now we should know that> the> > > sayan sankranti is related to the pole star or its postion. The> > nirayan> > > sankranti is related to the sun and the solar sankranti.This is why> we> > > give importance to the nirayan sankranit and not to the sayan> > sankranti> > > for religious purpose and also in astrology, although we take the> > sayan> > > positon for the actual calculations of the heavenly bodies etc.> > >> I> > > hope I have expresssed what I wanted to say.> > > thanking you,> > >> > > Sincerely yours,> > > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > Prashant Pandey> > > <praspandey@ ....>> > > HinduCalendar> > >> Sent:> > > Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:18:15 AM> > > Subject:> > > > [HinduCalendar]> > > > > > Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <I> > recently> > > heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan> > system> > > for the celebration of their festivals..This is what worries me..>>> >> > >> > > > > > yeahoooo> > > > > > ting ding ding ding ding !> > > > > >> Sirji> > > this is the reality of our HINDU DHARMA. Believe me!> > > > > > We> had> > > tropical calendar in past, this our Dharma Grantha says.That is our> > > ancient Vedic Calendar in true sense.> > > > > > Sir for your kind> > > information south indian's are best in astrology and about knowing> the> > > ancient facts of Hindu Dharma.> > > > > > I was also aware that> South> > > Indians will start this reform and will reinstate our vedic calendar> > > because they are the best, and they have courage.> > > > > > All> naadi> > > astrological works are from south india.Thy have done beautifull> > > research, no doubt, i should say they are best in the world in> > > astrology.> > > > > > We can abuse Kaulji but he is correct in his> > > > > > research.S B Dixit, i think also South Indian, he has also> said> > > same thing and now in South India, some temples have reinstaed the> > Vedic> > > Calendar.Good News!> > > > > > I am also also ardent follower of> > Nirayan> > > (Sidereal) sytem(also of tropical).> > > > > > But for Hindu Dharma,> i> > > will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray> > pyaaray> > > dharm ke liye).> > > > > > Thanks again for Good News!> > > > > >> Now> > i> > > am happy and can sleep well.> > > > > > Regs,> > > Prashant Pandey>> >> > >> > > > > > Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com,> > > Prashant <praspandey@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Sunil> > Nairji,>> > > > > > As you suggest?I stop here, since you are irritated> > unnecessarily> > > without searching for the truth.But let me remind you that I am not> in> > > favoour of pure sayan system as you understand.? I want to protect> and> > > presearve?the nirayan system in a reseasonble way.The reason?I want> to> > > do this?is because sayan is trying to> > > > > > overcome our nirayan culture..I recently heard that in Tamil> > nadu> > > 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration> of> > > their festivals.This is what worries me.Well if you want them to> > > increase and increase, it is upto you.You may please check from> Robert> > > wilkinson of the WAves forum, if it is true or not.Also know that> > > Mr.Kaul has?said both sayan and nirayan Niradhar.Any way, at present> I> > > am in no mood to continue with this subject here either. Thanking> > you,?I> > > say goodbye,> > > > ?sincerely yours,> > > > Hari Malla.> > > > > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > >> > > > > sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@ >> > > > vedic astrology@> > > . com> > > > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:48:49 PM>> >> > >> > > > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology@> > > . com, "sunil nair"> > > > <astro_tellerkerala> > > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > dear hari malla ji and sreenadh ji> > >> >> > >> > > > > > malla ji says shri kaul ji is ready to change his attitude or> > may> > > b> > > > malla ji can make it happen ,kaul jis confessions and> > > conversion are> > > > always welcome> > > > > > > > But the problem> > wont> > > end there> > > > > > > > First of all he shud decide/agree what is> > Hindu> > > astrological> > > > -astronomical concept and he shud discard his> > > support for sayana western> > > > zodiacs and praising of their> > > contributions .His calendrical concepts> > > > are based on a moving> > > vishuva bindu ,so the rasi belt ( the path ) moves> > > > with the> > > changes in vishuva bindu which is western concept not indian> > > >> > > jyothishchakra ( hindu /baudha /jaina /charvaka etc ) .indian> concept>> > >> > > > > is based on nakshtra and fixed point of meshadi and aswinadi> > aramba>> > > > > > chart> > > > > > > > ,if malla ji thinks it is varahamihira> > strted> > > it i think he is wrong> > > > ,pls refer parasara hora ,chapter 3> > > > > > shloka numbrs 3 to 7 ,nakshtrani> > > > grhanam ----- to> meshadi> > > namaka rasaya syu part .> > > > > > > > so for us rasi chakra is the> > > path for grahas and nakshtras and other> > > > points required for a> > > jyothichakra .And it has to b fixed one .And for> > > > us rasi and> > > bhava is imp .lagna and Houses decide every thing and> > > >> > ownerships> > > /shodasa vargas and all other mathematical points like ucha> > > >> > > ,neecha and even gulika/mrityu sputa etc all r based on a fixed> rasi>> > >> > > > > chart .where as if we can use kaul's version then path is moving> > > and> > > > grahas moving and nakshtras moving tho mathematicaly> graha> > > position ( i> > > > mean stithi ) point is same in both concepts> which> > > has diffrnt> > > > parameters ,so logicaly mathematicaly both may b> > > correct apparently but> > > > cannot compromise because acccording> his> > > concept or supporting> > > > arguemnts will take us to think that> the> > > road and vehicles both r moving> > > > ( zodiac is moving back> > > > and> > > > > > grahas are moving forward ) .So when some> > > > one is> > travelling> > > we hav to say delhi has come to him than he reached to> > > > delhi> by> > > road ,still the question of timing such purticular event in> > > >> > > advance how it is possible when both r moving ??why we need to> > >> >> > > complicate every thing ??> > > > > > > > so i hope malla ji may> revise> > > his views .> > > > > > > > also according to vedic concept the> vishnu> > > nabhi is important in> > > > thinking abt creation of universe and> > here> > > the moola nakshtra ( as it is> > > > base or root ) and jyeshta (> > eldest> > > one ) is also has to b considered as> > > > based on it all nakshtra> > > concept is based than some one interpret some> > > > vedic mantras> as> > > kritikati naksktras in some time of vedic periods is> > > > the> > strting> > > point ,it has diffrnt meaning may b ,and vishuva bindu> > > > cannot> b> > a> > > strting point when thinking abt creation of universe as it is> > > >> > the> > > basis of rai chakra ( rahu -sikhi chakra )> >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > so many things accepted as vedic will b diffrnt frm> > > kaulian argumnts> > > > and i dont think ther is any chance of> > > reconciling both arguemnts .> > > > > > > > so he has only 2 choice> > > .either discard his arguemnts or go ahed> > > > without any use> except> > > name calling and a chance to call astrologers as> > > > frauds in> the> > > name of a impractical calender ,like wat he was doing for> > > >> > almost> > > quarter century .> > > > > > > > let us forget abt he abused ancient> > > rishies / acharyas and dharma gurus> > > > and sankaracharyas .Also> > > haunting any one who is interested in astrology> > > > by gate> > crashing> > > technics and guerrilla technics .> > > > > > > > rgrds sunil nair .>> >> > >> > > > > > > > Om shreem mahalaxmai namah .> > > > > > > > --- In> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > >> > sreesog@> > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Hari Malla ji,> > > > > //> Thank you> > for> > > the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > > most> of> > us> > > > > > lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.//> >> >> > >> > > > Sorry... I think this itself is the very thing he lacks! He is> NOT>> > >> > > > > > devoted to the purpose of calendar reform, but just to the> his>> > >> > > > > roadside> > > > > rowdy bad mouth attitude against astrologers> and> > > astrology alone. If> > > > > ever he been dedicated to the subject> of> > > Vedic calender reform even> > > > for> > > > > at least 3 months or> so> > > he would have prepared the the skeleton frame> > > > > work of the> > same,> > > and also might have written good descriptive article> > > > > about> > its> > > components, organization, co-relation, purpose etc. He is> > > >> yet>> > >> > > > > > to implement even these tasks, which a knowledeable individual> > who> > > may> > > > > dedicate 3 months to this subject may do. This not only> > > prove that he> > > > is> > > > > incapable, but also that he got NO> > > DEVOTION to the purpose of vedic> > > > > calender reform. Mark it.>> >> > >> > > > > // I have requested him .... Hopefully> > > > he> > > > > > may agree....... I think it> > > > > may be worthwhile to talk> > and> > > negotiate.// > > > > > Hopes are always good. Whether it be Sunil> > > Nair ji, Sunil> > > > > Bhattacharjya ji or Me, we all once had a> > > respect for this man, which> > > > we> > > > > all lost in due> course> > > during our repeated interactions with that foul> > > > > mouth,> > without> > > constructive attitude and respect for the contributions> > > > > of> > our> > > ancistors. You can have your turn, and wish you all the best in> > >> >> > >> > > your sincere efforts. > > > > > //If he comes to term with> somethng> > > which is commonly acceptable why> > > > not> > > > > go along with> > > him?//> > > > > Yes, certainly if he wish he can join us and come> > along> > > with. Or if> > > > > you wish you can join him and go along with.> But> > > the point is the> > > > > purpose of evey stream, school of> knowledge> > > and individuals differ and> > > > > the group is just a meeting> place.> > > The true contributions are always> > > > > done by> > > > > > individuals and is individualistic. This being so - neither I>> >> > >> > > > > need the help of Kaul nor Kaul need the help of me. The same> could> > > be> > > > > true about the contibution of anyone with in this group> or> > > outside.> > > > > //After all we must divide our work.//> > > > >> Have> > > your ever tried it (especially related astrological research)?> > >> >> > >> > > And what was the result? What are the lessons you learned from that>> >> > >> > > > > experience? We all would be eager to know. If you have ever> > > tried> > > > > the same, you would sure be able to answer those> > > questions. But if you> > > > > haven't ever tried the same - then> your> > > advice does not hold any> > > > water.> > > > > Any way I am in> > > support of that statement, but at times when it> > > > comes> > > >> >> > to> > > astrological research, I don't find anyone to divide my work with!>> >> > >> > > > > > > > > May be I may change this opinion as I see more sincere> > at> > > the same> > > > time> > > > > knowledgeable> > > > individuals.> > > > > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > >> >> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla> > >> >> > >> > > harimalla@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Sreenadhji,> > > > > >> > > Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which>> >> > >> > > > > most of us lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender> > reform.>> > > > > > > After all we must divide our work.If he comes to term with> > > somethng> > > > > which is commonly acceptable why not go along with> > > him?> > > > > > I feel we can work something which harmonises all,> > which> > > keeps up> > > > our> > > > > nirayan tradition and also correct the> > > times of festivals..The rashis> > > > > must continue, as much of> our> > > religious literature and the present> > > > > jyotish system is> based> > > and has been written using them. I have> > > > > requested him not> try> > > to get rid of the rashis and also tolerate the> > > > > nirayan> system> > > in a coordinated fashion with the sayan system.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > Hopefully he may agree.I have not been in contact with him for> > > some> > > > > time.Shree Sunil Bahatacharyaji, thinks he may not> agree> > > overnight.But> > > > I> > > > > think it may be worthwhile to talk> and> > > negotiate.thank you...> > > > > > Sincerely yours,> > > > > > Hari> > > Malla> > > > >> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > >> >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions> > of> > > this message have been removed]> > > > > > > > --- End forwarded> > message> > > ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends> to> > > your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. /> invite/>> > >> > > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >>> > > > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ________________________________> > > > From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Click> > here.> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 vedic astrology , Vinay Jha <vinayjhaa16 wrote: prashanthnair ji, I wasted much time on this wrestler. He is immune to mathematical evidences as well as to reasoning. There is no point in wasting words on ignorant wrestlers ( " malla " means a wrestler). Call a spade a spade. Lunatic calendars of moon-struck persons will never be accepted by non-muslims in India. -Vinay Jha ============== ============= ________________________________ prashanthnair999 prashanthnair999 vedic astrology Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:00:10 AM [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Calender reform ancient_indian_ astrology, " sunil nair " <astro_tellerkerala wrote: dear respected bhaskar ji i was keeping quiet to this blabberings and indiscreet talks in the name of calender strted again today after they failed to produce anything and even a calender which i was challenging all this yrs , i hav so many things to do and even this malla ji s nuisance mails is affecting our day to day prayers and meditations too ,it becomes so easy for many to join in astrology grps because we try to maintain some satwikness in our approach and activities and they think it as weakness if some ppl r determined to disturb astrologers then may b we hav to strt our own jihad i blv ,this is too much and height of extreme arrogance . did he ever tried his own suggestions in his calendrical way . malla ji says " " " we must coordinate four things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa nakshyatra). " " " " " " " " " Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla pakshya and uttrayan start together " " " " sun and moon in dhanishta nakhstra just waisting time of others and This will come around feb 6th to sun to atleast come to dhanishta and that time moon will b in taurus rohini nakshtra and then calculate how many days it will take to come to dhanishta nakshtra by the time sun will move out of dhanishta ,now they will come with another excuse of tropical calenders ,again tropical calenders dont hav nakshtra ?? so how again it is possible and both the case where is Uttarayana here ,where is makara samkranti ?? where is tapa here and where is magha maasa ?? kaul says uttarayan strt with 22nd dec and now he wants on feb 6 ,my foot ,r we in some mental assylum ?? phew ennough is enough is zodiac is some grandpa ancient wooden clock we used to change its hands at our wish and will where is pole star???? did he know atleast nursery lessons in chart making ?? did he learned sputayana ?? atleast ??forget abt astronmical treatises called surya sidhantha and other granthas they know only to call others charlattans or frauds who ever contributed to hindu sastras as it is a block to their missions in india and world at large ,i know some ppl after talking to me and after i convinced them first thing they r doing is applying for de baptisation ,so this sastra has to b eradicated frm earth that is the mission in the name of calenders and hindu festivals . he and kaulians has lost everything they become realy Niradhar and gone to bananas now again coming with blah blah blah theories . when u answer them tru quotes and vedas they get orgasam as they can twist it and quote all western centric authors and make us to answer even why u worship monkey god where as i was always using diffrnt approach a layman's or a uneducated hindu farmers approach .or riksha pullers approach .Ask some innocent questions it is where he run away ,other wise many many big scholars failed with them because finaly they stops ,because no body can suffer this verbal daiorria rgrds sunil nair ancient_indian_ astrology, " Bhaskar " bhaskar_jyotish@ wrote: > > > Respected Sirs, > > What about the Pole star ? Was it the same Pole star at the time of > Vedanga Jyotish, and will it remain the same after n number of years ? > > If accepted that it was the same, then would it remain the same in > future too ? > > regards, > > Bhaskar. ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla > harimalla@ wrote: > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I was very happy to read your analysis of calender reform.tahk yu for > the interest. > > Meghnath Shah was not accepted because it was only tropical.This is > true so the western type of tropical calender is not our solution.The > Vikram era calender which was OK sime centuries ago and which has now > gone out of tract has to be brouoght to its original status.Then only it > will be acceptable.We must understand what is our original > requirement. Vedanga Jyotish says,when the sun and the moon rise toether > in dhanistha, then the five years yuga, the month of maagha, tapa sukla > pakshya and uttrayan start together.This I think is the requirement of > our calender.In the present calender ie Vikram caledner, all these > factors no more meet simultaneously. Thus the need to reform it to its > original status. > > From the above sloka of vedanga jyotish, we must coordinate four > things,the sun,(solar date) the moon(tithi or lunar date), the pole > star(uttarayan or season) and the nakshyatras( sidereal maghaa > nakshyatra). Thus at present our vikram sambat coordinates three-the sun, > the moon, the nakshyatra, but season is left out.Thus you say why not > leave season separate and have sideral and tropical as separate.This is > where it does not work. It must be sideral and tropical both at the same > time.Then we have our vedic calender as defined by vedanga jyotish > intact. > > These four factors are defined in our philosophy too. They call it > vishwa(sun), taijas( moon),pragya( pole star) and turia(nakshyatras) . > > Thus if we want to have our developed religion as it should be ,we > have to bring it back to its complete status.Otherwise our religion > becomes lame.Thus the need to shift both the solar and the lunar months > one month backwards, something like what was done by Barhamihir and > others.Why do you think they had to shift both the sayan and nirayan > points.They shifted the nirayan point from dhanistha to uttra > ashadha(makar sankranti),shifted lunar uttarayan one pakshya from > maagha sukla pratipada to poush purnima.Similarly we have to shift both > the solar and the lunar months one month backwards(and the rashis and > nakshyatras too), without feeling lazy.This mental laziness is harming > our society more and more every year s ayanamsa is going on > increasing.After reformation, people following our reigions will be the > best type of people in the world. > > So let us move to the standard our fore fathers expected of us.Thank > you, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari malla > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Cc: astrologyandremedie s ; ancient indian astrology > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Tuesday, April 28, 2009 1:34:15 PM > > Re: Calender reform > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > Calender committee headed by renowned scientist Mr. Meghnath shah and > other > > equally well known members , suggested to commence a tropical based > calender and > > suggested to start it w.r.t V.E.POINT of 285 A.D. At that time , mean > longitude of star citra(spica 16) was > > 180 deg 3sec. > > This calender was not accepted as it could not meet religious > requirements of any group or sect in India. > > Even if you will start a new calender , and fix a sidereal point in a > arbitrary manner , it will not serve the purpose > > as both sidereal initial point and V.E. POINT will start separating at > a mean rate of 50 " .3 per year. > > Both Tropical and Sidereal calender are needed. > > I am therefore of the opinion that we should not disturb Vikram Sambat > Calender as this is also constructed ,based on most modern Astronomical > data madeavailable by Positional Astronomical centre. > > No body in confusion , and all types of calenders are mentioned in an > 'INDIAN PANCHANG'. > > One can choose the data and calender according to his requirement. > > All computer software has the option to use calender based on tropical > co-ordinates. > > As regards various values of Ayanamsa , these options are also > available. > > Then I am unable to understand , what reform we are talking about. > > Well . if some one do not wish to use samvatsar calender ,he is free > to do so. > > > > A silent reform all over the world has already taken place , that we > are now using most modern > > data in our calender as well as Panchang and Ephemeris making.We now > follow geocentric > > coordinates and these are measured on ecliptic. > > The real break through will come when we will able to understand the > effect of Helio- centric > > co-ordinates. > > Regards, > > G.K.GOEL > > Ph: 09350311433 > > Add: L-409, SARITA VIHAR > > NEW DELHI-110 076 > > INDIA > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hari Malla harimalla@ > > Gopal Goel gkgoel1937@ > > Sunday, 26 April, 2009 2:10:14 PM > > Fw: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi > > > > > > Dear Goelji, > > I hope some of the reasons for the merging of the sidearal and > tropical concepts in Vikram sambat is discussed here below.There are > certain rules of the adhimas system which cannot be ignored.It is > bsically to give seasons to lunar months that adhimas are > celebrated.This adhimas system sets the limit to the lunar seasons.If > this original concept is violated then the purpose of adhimas is > violated.AThe excess of ayanamsa results in this violation. This makes > it necessary that the nirayan sankranti have to be shifted from time to > time,to keep alive the purpose of adhimas. This was also done by > Barahamihir etc. in the past.I hope I have given the reason for this > merging of tropical and sidereal concepts.The main reason is that the > lunar months by which festivals are celebrated are both sidereal and > tropical at the same time.Please reply if this is OK or not? thanking > you ,I remain, > > sincerely yours, > > Hari Malla > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, Please do one exercise yourself about the Purnimanta month as to in which Nakshatra the Purnima has to occur at the end of the month of Magha and also the fact that on the purnima day the sun will be 180 degrees away in another Nakshatra. You will have a better grasp of the Luni-Solar calendar. The Vedanga Jyotisha mentions about some occurrence in one particular year in the past and that does not mean that it has to occur the same way in the subsequent years. We cannot do any artificial thing. The heavenly bodies will do things in their natural way as per the rules the Providence had made. Further the Maghasnana has to be in the month of Magha or at the junction of the Pousha and Magha and not in any other condition. Sincerely Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Dear Bhaatacharjyaji, Thank you for your suggestion which is defintely appropriate. 1.It has been proved after extensive exercises that maagha purnima fluctuates over the zone of maghaa and aslesha nakshyatra, 15 days before and 15 days after kumbha sankranti.Kumbha sankranti lies 180 degrees from the mid point of maghaa and aslesha nakshyatras. 2.Similiarly,Poush purnima fluactuates over the zone of pushya and punarvsu nakshyatras. It also moves 15 days before and 15 days after makar sankranti, so that makar ssnkranti lies 180 degreees form the midpoint of pushya and punarvsu nakshyatras. 3.Also,Mangsir purnima fluctuates over Adra, mrigasira and rohini nakshyatras.It moves 15 days before and 15 days after dhanu sankranti, so that the dhanu sankranti is 180 degrees from the midpointof the said nakshaytras.Now the uttarayan point being 6th. of saur poush(21 dec.) lies in the third category or zone.It thus lies in the zone of magsir purnima.Thus mangsir purnima is the uttarayn purnima.The middle of this purnima zone(ie 180 degrees from the mid point of mrigasira nakshyatra) is dhanu sankranti.Thus joint soli-lunar status demands that the actual sayan uttrayan at 21 dec or 6th of saura poush can be authentically represented by the nirayan sankranti, dhanu sankranti.It is a matehmatically proved. the lunar date for Maagha snana was orignally at maagha sukla pratipada during the vednga jyotish period, which was the only uttrayan date, there bing no solar date as such.Nevertheless the sun in dhanistha was also sepcified as the starting point in the same way that makar sankranti was later specifiedin the sidhanta jyotish period as the solar date, whaich was virtually the starting point only. In the sidhanta jyotish period uttarayan tithi was shifted to poush purnima and the solar date parallel to sun in dhanistha was shifted to sun in uttar ashdha (ie makar sankranti). It had to be done because of the precessional shift.Here we must think hard why did Barah mihir and others not keep on sticking to the sun in dhanistha, like we are now sticking to makar sankranti.Because uttarayan is the more important and not dhanistha. similarly we should not stick to the star uttara ashadha ie makar sankranti as our uncahngeable date for uttarayan now.The question may arise, do the stars not affect us? This is the crucial question.The answer is, no the stars do not affect us by themselves, they are only a fixed measure of time in sapce.If the stars affected us by themselves then we would have to take the affect of of all the stars ie toal 88 constellations.But we consider only 12 constellation for our purpose which lie in the zodiac belt along the ecliptic? thus the earth moving along the ecliptic, our sense of annual time is important and not the stars.Sir has anybody an answer for this question.so lt give our attachment ot the nirayan stsrs. they have become redunant now.Let us be practical llike our ancestors like Baraha mihir and others. I speak on the basis of research of all possible analysis.So kindly condsider.Thank you, sincerely yours, Hari Malla Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:35:58 PM Re: Calender reform Dear Harimallaji, Please do one exercise yourself about the Purnimanta month as to in which Nakshatra the Purnima has to occur at the end of the month of Magha and also the fact that on the purnima day the sun will be 180 degrees away in another Nakshatra. You will have a better grasp of the Luni-Solar calendar. The Vedanga Jyotisha mentions about some occurrence in one particular year in the past and that does not mean that it has to occur the same way in the subsequent years. We cannot do any artificial thing. The heavenly bodies will do things in their natural way as per the rules the Providence had made. Further the Maghasnana has to be in the month of Magha or at the junction of the Pousha and Magha and not in any other condition. Sincerely Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, Once you delink Uttarayana from the Makar Sankranti you will have no problem. Kaul wanted to create problem by associating Makar Sankranti with the Uttarayana by saying that the Makar Sankranti must be celebrated on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single reference if the celebration of Uttarayana was recommended in the Vedas. Uttarayana is bound to shift from Rashi to Rashi and one has to accept that with grace. Makar Sankranti is to be celebrated only on the day of the Makar Sankramana. Soli-lunar Nakshatriya Calendar has no permanent position for the Uttarayana as the Uttarayana occurs in different Nakshatras at different times. There was only one period when the Makar Sankranti coincided with the Uttarayana and not for ever. That period is now over and one will have to wait smany thousand years for that to happen again. The Winter Solstice meant a lot to the people of Europe which is mostly snow-clad in the winter. Winter solstice is the beginning of the end of the icy days. That was the beginning of the warmer days to come. That was also the beginning ofa flurry of activities with the end of the general in-house confinement. Though we in Bharatvarsha too have some very cold places in the the Aryavarta and particularly in the Brahmavarta region within the Aryavarta, these areas are not snow-clad like the regions of Europe. That could be the regionm there was no special celebration of the Uttarayana in the ancient times. One recognises the Seasonal (Tropical) calendar does not mean that one has to make khicchdi (khicchri) of both the Nakshatriya and the Seasonal calendars. When you prepare food you don't mix all rice, wheat,dal, vegetables, fish and meat and then cook all of them together though it is going to the same stomach. So also one cannot make khicchri of the Nakshatriya and the Seasonal calendar. In my view these two calendars have to have their separate identities and can only be combined externally and not internally. Sincerely Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: Hari Malla <harimallaRe: Re: Calender reform Cc: parvasudhar2065, HinduCalendar Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 3:18 AM Dear Bhaatacharjyaji, Thank you for your suggestion which is defintely appropriate. 1.It has been proved after extensive exercises that maagha purnima fluctuates over the zone of maghaa and aslesha nakshyatra, 15 days before and 15 days after kumbha sankranti.Kumbha sankranti lies 180 degrees from the mid point of maghaa and aslesha nakshyatras. 2.Similiarly, Poush purnima fluactuates over the zone of pushya and punarvsu nakshyatras. It also moves 15 days before and 15 days after makar sankranti, so that makar ssnkranti lies 180 degreees form the midpoint of pushya and punarvsu nakshyatras. 3.Also,Mangsir purnima fluctuates over Adra, mrigasira and rohini nakshyatras. It moves 15 days before and 15 days after dhanu sankranti, so that the dhanu sankranti is 180 degrees from the midpointof the said nakshaytras.Now the uttarayan point being 6th. of saur poush(21 dec.) lies in the third category or zone.It thus lies in the zone of magsir purnima.Thus mangsir purnima is the uttarayn purnima.The middle of this purnima zone(ie 180 degrees from the mid point of mrigasira nakshyatra) is dhanu sankranti.Thus joint soli-lunar status demands that the actual sayan uttrayan at 21 dec or 6th of saura poush can be authentically represented by the nirayan sankranti, dhanu sankranti.It is a matehmatically proved. the lunar date for Maagha snana was orignally at maagha sukla pratipada during the vednga jyotish period, which was the only uttrayan date, there bing no solar date as such.Nevertheless the sun in dhanistha was also sepcified as the starting point in the same way that makar sankranti was later specifiedin the sidhanta jyotish period as the solar date, whaich was virtually the starting point only. In the sidhanta jyotish period uttarayan tithi was shifted to poush purnima and the solar date parallel to sun in dhanistha was shifted to sun in uttar ashdha (ie makar sankranti). It had to be done because of the precessional shift.Here we must think hard why did Barah mihir and others not keep on sticking to the sun in dhanistha, like we are now sticking to makar sankranti.Because uttarayan is the more important and not dhanistha. similarly we should not stick to the star uttara ashadha ie makar sankranti as our uncahngeable date for uttarayan now.The question may arise, do the stars not affect us? This is the crucial question.The answer is, no the stars do not affect us by themselves, they are only a fixed measure of time in sapce.If the stars affected us by themselves then we would have to take the affect of of all the stars ie toal 88 constellations. But we consider only 12 constellation for our purpose which lie in the zodiac belt along the ecliptic? thus the earth moving along the ecliptic, our sense of annual time is important and not the stars.Sir has anybody an answer for this question.so lt give our attachment ot the nirayan stsrs. they have become redunant now.Let us be practical llike our ancestors like Baraha mihir and others. I speak on the basis of research of all possible analysis.So kindly condsider.Thank you, sincerely yours, Hari Malla Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>ancient_indian_ astrologyThursday, April 30, 2009 12:35:58 PM[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Calender reform Dear Harimallaji, Please do one exercise yourself about the Purnimanta month as to in which Nakshatra the Purnima has to occur at the end of the month of Magha and also the fact that on the purnima day the sun will be 180 degrees away in another Nakshatra. You will have a better grasp of the Luni-Solar calendar. The Vedanga Jyotisha mentions about some occurrence in one particular year in the past and that does not mean that it has to occur the same way in the subsequent years. We cannot do any artificial thing. The heavenly bodies will do things in their natural way as per the rules the Providence had made. Further the Maghasnana has to be in the month of Magha or at the junction of the Pousha and Magha and not in any other condition. Sincerely Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Dear Bhattacharjyaji, Namaskar! I very much like your presentation of the case.It was put in a very clear way.The explantion of the opinion was very good.Thank you or your patience and interest.Let me enummeraate the purpose of our vedas as against the western faiths. 1.Our philosophy is ultimately adwait, meaning ultimately there is 'only one, not two'.This means God and nature are one and the same.We say God is our father and nature is our mother.We also say we go to God through nature, or to the father through our mother for only the mother truly knows the father.Thus to the nirayan through the sayan.To timeless ness with the help of annual time. In explaining this philosophy, Adi Shankaracharya, has said 'In the dark we see the serpent which in light, we come to realisse it is a rope.They are both one and the same' Only ignorance is to be removed.Thus time and timelessness are only a matter of realisation.The western world have never produced such a superb philosophy of monism. 2.To represent that philosophy, our calaender has always been that way, mixing the sidereal and the seasonal put together.So that if we start with the seasonal we ultimately land at the sidereal, with spiritual progress.Now the 'science of time ie calender' is designed such that it mkes us easy to realise the ultimate vedic truth.Thus jyotish has been termed 'the eye of the vedas'.This is amply explained by Vedanga jyotish when it says,'when the sun and the moon rise together in dhinistha, then the five year yuga, the month of maagha, the Tapa sukpla pakshya and uttrayan start together'.This is no accidental meeting of the seasonal Tapa and the sidereal maagha and also uttarayan.It was voluntarily designed that way to materialise the goal of the vedas.Thus I am surprised when you say no reference for makar sankraanti should be celebrated on the uttarayan day was produced byn AK Kaulji.The books on dharma shastras clearly spell it out.The books like Dharma sindhu, Kalmadhav and others are available for this purpose. 3.You said the period for makar sankranti to be uttrayan is over and it will meet only after thousands of years.Yes that is true.In fact for that very reason we have to take some trouble to set it right.Plese note tht the condition of sideral maagha and the seasonal tapa were joined by the fact that maagha sukla pratipada touched both of them for more than 1500years every third year.Also makar asankranti and uttrayan was toouched by the new uttrayan tithi,poush purnima, for over 1100 years after 285 AD.Thus even around 1400-1500AD, makar sankranti did authentically represent uttarayan.Then when that coordination was broken, and no successful attempt was made to set it right again,the fall of the hindus too started after that. Now we feel comfortaable with a simpler type of foreign calendar than to revitalise our own comprehensive calender. We must give up our psychlogical laziness to set our dharma and jyotish right as it was originally designed.We cannot degenerate our dharma to the level of the western simpler type of faith. Then how can we guide them and the world and feel good about the subperb religion and philosophy of ours? The sidereal representation of uttarayan was there in vedanga jyotish, when the sidhant jyotish came they maintained that tradition by representing uttarayan by the sideral makar sankranti, then why should we make a divorce beween them now? Is it because we are now influenced by the simpler type of western philosophy and have lost the ability to undertand the comprehensive philosophy developed by our fore fathers? Let us rise to the levels of our rishis and not let them down.Perhaps they did not enjoy all the modern facilities that we now enjoy, but in their understanding the total truth they were always higher than us. So let us always struggle to rise to their expectations and level.that should surely be our ideal. Let me make a small comment about the winter season in the west mentioned by you.. Their winter sesason starts with the shortest day and not end with it. Please consider our calaendr history arefully so we arrive at the truth. Thank you, Sincerely yurs, Hari Malla ________________________________ Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Cc: ; parvasudhar2065 Friday, May 1, 2009 5:07:57 AM Re: Re: Calender reform Dear Harimallaji, Once you delink Uttarayana from the Makar Sankranti you will have no problem. Kaul wanted to create problem by associating Makar Sankranti with the Uttarayana by saying that the Makar Sankranti must be celebrated on the Uttarayana day but he could not give a single reference if the celebration of Uttarayana was recommended in the Vedas. Uttarayana is bound to shift from Rashi to Rashi and one has to accept that with grace. Makar Sankranti is to be celebrated only on the day of the Makar Sankramana. Soli-lunar Nakshatriya Calendar has no permanent position for the Uttarayana as the Uttarayana occurs in different Nakshatras at different times. There was only one period when the Makar Sankranti coincided with the Uttarayana and not for ever. That period is now over and one will have to wait smany thousand years for that to happen again. The Winter Solstice meant a lot to the people of Europe which is mostly snow-clad in the winter. Winter solstice is the beginning of the end of the icy days. That was the beginning of the warmer days to come. That was also the beginning ofa flurry of activities with the end of the general in-house confinement. Though we in Bharatvarsha too have some very cold places in the the Aryavarta and particularly in the Brahmavarta region within the Aryavarta, these areas are not snow-clad like the regions of Europe. That could be the regionm there was no special celebration of the Uttarayana in the ancient times. One recognises the Seasonal (Tropical) calendar does not mean that one has to make khicchdi (khicchri) of both the Nakshatriya and the Seasonal calendars. When you prepare food you don't mix all rice, wheat,dal, vegetables, fish and meat and then cook all of them together though it is going to the same stomach. So also one cannot make khicchri of the Nakshatriya and the Seasonal calendar. In my view these two calendars have to have their separate identities and can only be combined externally and not internally. Sincerely Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@rocketmai l.com> wrote: Hari Malla <harimalla@rocketmai l.com> Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Calender reform ancient_indian_ astrology Cc: parvasudhar2065@ , HinduCalendar Thursday, April 30, 2009, 3:18 AM Dear Bhaatacharjyaji, Thank you for your suggestion which is defintely appropriate. 1.It has been proved after extensive exercises that maagha purnima fluctuates over the zone of maghaa and aslesha nakshyatra, 15 days before and 15 days after kumbha sankranti.Kumbha sankranti lies 180 degrees from the mid point of maghaa and aslesha nakshyatras. 2.Similiarly, Poush purnima fluactuates over the zone of pushya and punarvsu nakshyatras. It also moves 15 days before and 15 days after makar sankranti, so that makar ssnkranti lies 180 degreees form the midpoint of pushya and punarvsu nakshyatras. 3.Also,Mangsir purnima fluctuates over Adra, mrigasira and rohini nakshyatras. It moves 15 days before and 15 days after dhanu sankranti, so that the dhanu sankranti is 180 degrees from the midpointof the said nakshaytras. Now the uttarayan point being 6th. of saur poush(21 dec.) lies in the third category or zone.It thus lies in the zone of magsir purnima.Thus mangsir purnima is the uttarayn purnima.The middle of this purnima zone(ie 180 degrees from the mid point of mrigasira nakshyatra) is dhanu sankranti.Thus joint soli-lunar status demands that the actual sayan uttrayan at 21 dec or 6th of saura poush can be authentically represented by the nirayan sankranti, dhanu sankranti.It is a matehmatically proved. the lunar date for Maagha snana was orignally at maagha sukla pratipada during the vednga jyotish period, which was the only uttrayan date, there bing no solar date as such.Nevertheless the sun in dhanistha was also sepcified as the starting point in the same way that makar sankranti was later specifiedin the sidhanta jyotish period as the solar date, whaich was virtually the starting point only. In the sidhanta jyotish period uttarayan tithi was shifted to poush purnima and the solar date parallel to sun in dhanistha was shifted to sun in uttar ashdha (ie makar sankranti). It had to be done because of the precessional shift.Here we must think hard why did Barah mihir and others not keep on sticking to the sun in dhanistha, like we are now sticking to makar sankranti.Because uttarayan is the more important and not dhanistha. similarly we should not stick to the star uttara ashadha ie makar sankranti as our uncahngeable date for uttarayan now.The question may arise, do the stars not affect us? This is the crucial question.The answer is, no the stars do not affect us by themselves, they are only a fixed measure of time in sapce.If the stars affected us by themselves then we would have to take the affect of of all the stars ie toal 88 constellations. But we consider only 12 constellation for our purpose which lie in the zodiac belt along the ecliptic? thus the earth moving along the ecliptic, our sense of annual time is important and not the stars.Sir has anybody an answer for this question.so lt give our attachment ot the nirayan stsrs. they have become redunant now.Let us be practical llike our ancestors like Baraha mihir and others. I speak on the basis of research of all possible analysis.So kindly condsider.Thank you, sincerely yours, Hari Malla ________________________________ Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> ancient_indian_ astrology Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:35:58 PM [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: Calender reform Dear Harimallaji, Please do one exercise yourself about the Purnimanta month as to in which Nakshatra the Purnima has to occur at the end of the month of Magha and also the fact that on the purnima day the sun will be 180 degrees away in another Nakshatra. You will have a better grasp of the Luni-Solar calendar. The Vedanga Jyotisha mentions about some occurrence in one particular year in the past and that does not mean that it has to occur the same way in the subsequent years. We cannot do any artificial thing. The heavenly bodies will do things in their natural way as per the rules the Providence had made. Further the Maghasnana has to be in the month of Magha or at the junction of the Pousha and Magha and not in any other condition. Sincerely Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, You said as follows: Quote This is amply explained by Vedanga jyotish when it says,'when the sun and the moon rise toThis is amply explained by Vedanga jyotish when it says,'when the sun and the moon rise together in dhinistha, then the five year yuga, the month of maagha, the Tapa sukpla pakshya and uttrayan start together'.This is no accidental meeting of the seasonal Tapa and the sidereal maagha and also uttarayan.It was voluntarily designed that way to materialise the goal of the vedas.Thus I am surprised when you say no reference for makar sankraanti should be celebrated on the uttarayan day was produced byn AK Kaulji.gether in dhinistha, then the five year yuga, the month of maagha, the Tapa sukpla pakshya and uttrayan start together'.This is no accidental meeting of the seasonal Tapa and the sidereal maagha and also uttarayan.It was voluntarily designed that way to materialise the goal of the vedas.Thus I am surprised when you say no reference for makar sankraanti should be celebrated on the uttarayan day was produced byn AK Kaulji. Unquote You cannot understand that in the time of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha ie. in around 2400 BCE the Uttarayana occured in Dhanistha naksatra and at that time it was Magha (Lunar month) and Tapa (seasonal) month. Now the Uttarayana does not occur any more in Dhanistha. So stop talking nonsense. No more replies to you. I have limited time with me. If you do not understand it is your problem. Sincerely S.K.Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Dear Bhattacharjyaji, I am trying to explain the togetherness of tropical and sidereal concepts of both the sun and the moon, in the past calenders,both in the vedanga jyotish and sidhanta periods.They have done coordination of three factors.The sideral sun, sidereal moon, the tropical sun and moon rolled up into one.I am not saying uttrayan occurs now with sun in dhanistha nor I am saying uttrayan occurs now in makar. What I am saying is presently also the sidereal sun, the sidereal moon and the seasons should be coordinated as of olden days.I also say it can be done since method of dooing it has been discovered.We only need the will to do it.To do this we have to shift the names of one solar and lunar months and the new ayanamsa becomes 6 degrees.We will limit ayanamsa within 15 degrees plus and minus,always in the future, to increase the accuracy of our dharmic festivals and jyotish.Of course, if some one does not want to see the truth, it can never be shown.You will always like to believe that makar and uttrayan were never meant to be together even if i say the dharma shastras spell it again and again.I was hoping that you are trying to see the truth.Do you think coordination of all these factors was done in the past and has to be done now also instead of taking the western concept of sayan and nirayan separately forgetting our vedic system of coordination of all the factors? The coordination of all the factors is clearly shown by vedanga jyotish by the definiton of the beginning of the year.We only have to understnd their model to understand the type of our traditional system. What is your choice, shall we go in the perfect comprehensive way they went or think we are incapable to follow them due to our various weaknesses in the modern times? I wonder if you understood when I said the stars do not afect us as we are taking only 12 constellations out of total of 88 constellations.This fact disproves the limitless nirayan system, you are trying to protect.Let us be clear if we want the truth or not. This is all I ask. Thanking you,I remain, Sincerely yours, Hari Malla ________________________________ Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Friday, May 1, 2009 1:22:06 PM Re: Re: Calender reform Dear Harimallaji, You said as follows: Quote This is amply explained by Vedanga jyotish when it says,'when the sun and the moon rise toThis is amply explained by Vedanga jyotish when it says,'when the sun and the moon rise together in dhinistha, then the five year yuga, the month of maagha, the Tapa sukpla pakshya and uttrayan start together'.This is no accidental meeting of the seasonal Tapa and the sidereal maagha and also uttarayan.It was voluntarily designed that way to materialise the goal of the vedas.Thus I am surprised when you say no reference for makar sankraanti should be celebrated on the uttarayan day was produced byn AK Kaulji.gether in dhinistha, then the five year yuga, the month of maagha, the Tapa sukpla pakshya and uttrayan start together'.This is no accidental meeting of the seasonal Tapa and the sidereal maagha and also uttarayan.It was voluntarily designed that way to materialise the goal of the vedas.Thus I am surprised when you say no reference for makar sankraanti should be celebrated on the uttarayan day was produced byn AK Kaulji. Unquote You cannot understand that in the time of composition of Vedanga Jyotisha ie. in around 2400 BCE the Uttarayana occured in Dhanistha naksatra and at that time it was Magha (Lunar month) and Tapa (seasonal) month. Now the Uttarayana does not occur any more in Dhanistha. So stop talking nonsense. No more replies to you. I have limited time with me. If you do not understand it is your problem. Sincerely S.K.Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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