Astrological Reading vs Fate and Freewill

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Astrological Reading vs Fate and Freewill

 

 

Last Updated on Wednesday, 22 April 2009 13:21

 

Written by Rama Vootala, Sreenadh OG

 

Thursday, 16 April 2009 13:33 (Source: AIA Website: Astrological Reading vs Fate and Freewill )[Participants: Rama Vootala, Sreenadh OG] [Editor: Sreenadh OG] Admin Note: Any editor preparing such write-ups based on AIA Group conversations are requested to follow the below guidelines. The participants and editors name should be mentioned at the top of the documentThe

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avoided. Always give the original thread URL as a reference, in the beginning of the document. [Thread: /message/231] [This is a conversation record write-up prepared based on a thread happened in AIA . Please note that, many points from the original discussion might have been omitted here to make this readable] Rama Vootala: When any native consults an astrologer, how sure can the astrologer /native be of the outcome that astrologer predicts? I

ask this question as anyone who sees an astrologer is not sure of the

outcome until the event happens. So it is as good as waiting for the

event itself to unfold the result. Ex: Can I start preparing to go abroad the day astrologer tells me that I would go abroad in a few months? One

of a known native was told by an reputed astrologer that he would get

back to his good financial status that he enjoyed before. That made him

quite happy and he waited for the time to see that nothing happened. If

80% success in prediction cannot spell which 80%, isn't that 100%

failure? Where does astrology stand with respect to karma? Again

to take an example, in west (general cases) if someone is divorced they

might not attach much of value and might get into another relation.

Whereas for someone who believes in astrology he/she would have to go

thru the pain of finding out why it happened and any realization that a

weak planet in their 7/8 house can always make him /her more insecure. Sreenadh: Quote When any native consults an astrologer, how sure can the astrologer / native be of the outcome that astrologer predicts? Unquote No

surety! It is a risk the native is taking! For the astrologer as well,

(except his belief in the words of the Rishis and the belief in the

methods he follow), the uncertainty remains, till the event reveals

itself! He would be happy, if the prediction turns true, and would be

sad and try to rectify his methods if the prediction fails. Quote So it is as good as waiting for the event itself to unfold the result. Unquote That is your personal opinion. You said: Quote If 80% success in prediction cannot spell which 80%, isn't that 100% failure? Unquote Do

you know one cute thing - percentage mathematics is almost always used

now a day while talking with things we are not at all sure off! Just

watch some conversations and you will see the truth of this statement.

So for the wise, except in mathematics and statistics it is better to

avoid the 100% mathematics. But people use it universally even while

talking about things they don't know a bit - because then it would

sound authentic! For a prediction how you are going to calculate the

percentage?! I don't know how to do it! Of course we can mark some

predictions as success and some as failures, and going by the

statistical methods we can say classify that - 1) x % of predictions where success. 2) y % of predictions failed 3) z % of predictions undeterminable (i.e whether success or failure) But

how to determine the percentage of a single prediction? It sounds

absurd, and is used by persons who just want to sound authentic, and

does not know where to use the percentage mathematics! (Let it be

astrologers or anybody else) Are they providing this percentage

mathematics after doing some statistical analysis - No, not at all.

Look at the politicians, the businessman, or even the common man, they

are all now talking about percentage! You asked: Quote Where does astrology stand with respect to karma? Unquote It

is pretty difficult question to answer, due to several reasons. First I

should ask you to clarify by the word Karma you mean Karma (Actions of

an individual) or Karma theory (that binds everything with karma and

speaks about past birth, future birth etc and also about Prarabtha

Karma etc). If if is assured that you are speaking about Karma theory

and its relation to astrology, then also this question is difficult to

answer for me, due to the following reasons: 1) I am no man to authentically speak about karma theory as i know nothing about my or anybody else past birth and future birth. 2) I

can speak something only on the basis of the books I read, but that

cannot be assured truth coming to the concept of Karma and its results. 3) Ancient astrological classics speak nothing about the association of Karma theory with astrology. 4) But

in the texts probably after the period of Mihira (6th century) speak

about Karma and Karma theory as if it is part of astrology. 5) As

far as I am concerned I am doubtful about the importance of Karma

theory in astrology and yet to reach any conclusion. Belief in Karma

theory demands the belief in Past and Previous births, which I find

difficult to accept completely. (It is a personal opinion and I don't

want to argue anything about it to anyone) But yes, this previous birth

concept finds strong grounds in ancient Indian literature, though we

can be doubtful about its existence in Veda, Upanishads, and ancient

astrological texts. 6) Karma

theory finds strong support by a very large number of astrologers now a

day though and that kind of determinism is against optimism, free will,

and positive thinking. I will get less support or may be no support if

I say anything against Karma theory. Also, I have authority neither to

accept nor to deny it. Due

to all these I find that I am an improper person to talk about Karma.

It is better to be satisfied with and talk about the little astrology

we know - that is my personal view. Or in other words, it is not good

to talk or preach about the things we don't know – that is not

sincerity - so I don't want to do that. There would be others who would

like to discuss such things. Belief/Non-belief

in Karma (or should I say any belief?), Following of Upasana methods,

Meditation etc are personal things I feel – which should not be

discussed in public. It will be something like a journalistic report of

Meditation - which does not convey much about the reality. Beliefs and

practices that direct subjective experience is one thing, and

discussion of the theoretical aspect of the belief systems and

descriptions of the practices that would give direct subjective

experience is another thing. Yes, "discussion of the theoretical aspect

of the belief systems and descriptions of the practices that would give

direct subjective experience" can be done in any public forum - but not

the questioning of it (that makes it journalistic, as told earlier.

i.e. Journalistic validation of a purely subjective and personal thing

- and that would surely miss the essence of that practice and the

personal experience it gives to its follower). In essence if the Karma

discussion follows, and if it turns in the first direction, then I will

keep away from it, and if it is in the second direction I may put

forward some inputs as well. Rama Vootala: I have a basic question - What is the purpose of astrology? Quote 3) Ancient astrological classics speaks nothing about the association of Karma theory with astrology. 4) But in the texts probably after the period of Mihira (6th century) speak about Karma and Karma theory as if it is part of astrology. Unquote

Oh, is that true? Could you let me know which is the first known book

on astrology? Is it not BPHS? Do we have any mentions of astrology /

astrologers in Ramayana / Mahabharat? When did people start taking

astrology seriously, as divine subject? and as mundane subject? (for

predictions, etc....) Thanks for your patient reply. Sreenadh: Quote I have a basic question - What is the purpose of astrology? Unquote As far as I know: 1) It

is to help the weak minds; by the ones who have a strong will using all

the tools they can collect and being sincere to the extreme possible

extend to themselves. 2) It is (a tool) to the search of the unknown (here future and destiny)- directed by quest for knowledge. 3) It is (a tool) to guide the society, when they find it difficult to pull along. 4) Its

main purpose is to know the trend of future and modify and improve our

will and efforts in such a way to reap the maximum reward from the

evolving situations created by destiny, will and environment. 5) ..... (Yes, you can extend this list) Quote Could you let me know which is the first known book on astrology? Is it not BPHS? Unquote No. It is not. It is - · As per Arsha school - Skanda Hora [it was also known as Jyotishmati Upanishad] · As

per Jain school - Garga Hora (Garga leaned this knowledge from Brahma

it is said. Is there a text by Brahma for this school of thought,

before Garga? I don't know) · As

per Yavana school of thought - May be Yavaneswara Hora. (Yavaneswara

leaned this knowledge from Prajapati Brahma it is said. Is there a text

by Prajapati Brahma for this school of thought, before Yavaneswara? I

don't know) · It

is only that the oldest text (I won't say the oldest reference)

available in North India is BPHS. So BPHS is NOT the oldest book on

astrology. Quote Do we have any mentions of astrology / astrologers in Ramayana /Mahabharat? Unquote Yes,

we have, and in plenty. But nowhere in Ramayana and Mahabharat the

Signs are mentioned (except in a lone quote in Ramayana). It seems that

only Stellar astrology (Nakshatra Chakra) was prevalent on those days.

But can't be sure. It needs more research to reach a conclusion. But

you forgot one thing. The Vedas and possibly the Agamas (Tantric texts,

or should I say the Tantric tradition) are older than the Epics. In

Vedas we could find the clear Sayana (Tropical Zodiac) and Nirayana

(Sidereal Zodiac) classification. But it seems that the Vedas gave more

importance to Sayana system - but here also, more research is

necessary. The Tantric tradition seems to gave more importance to

Nirayana system, and associate and correlate astrology with Yoga

system. [More research necessary] Quote When did people start taking astrology seriously, as divine subject? and as mundane subject? (for predictions, etc....) Unquote From

the Vedic period itself for sure. Or may be far before that from the

Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization period itself - Many argue that it

followed Tantric tradition. [More research necessary] Rama Vootala: Quote 1)

It is to help the weak minds; by the ones who have a strong will using

all the tools they can collect and being sincere to the extreme

possible extend to themselves. Unquote Weak minds? That makes us all inferior. Quote Jain school - Do you have any idea of approximate time period, like how many thousand years before was this? Is astrology Vedic? Meaning, is the Vedic astrology, what we follow now, the right term? Quote From

the Vedic period itself for sure. Or may be far before that from the

Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization period itself - Many argue that it

followed Tantric Tradition. [More research necessary] Unquote Was

the before Indus valley? Let me google and see what this civilization

is all about, and if you have time please let me know of it. So,

which is the system Kerala astrologers follow mostly? Parasara /

Jaimini / or the others (I don't mean to belittle others, I only know

of Parasara and Jaimini). Thanks for your patient long replies. Sreenadh: Quote Weak minds? That makes us all inferior. Unquote

Anybody who depends TOO MUCH on astrology to face the hardships of life

is a weak mind. If you are ready to face what may come - good or bad -

why one should need astrology? Yes, it can be a tool of help, like a

torch. (If used properly, and if the predictions are cross-verified,

and dependable. May be judged from the previous experience of others)

If I am ready to fall or ready to face the uncertainty, why you should

need the torch? But the common mass if really afraid of the

uncertainty - and ran after astrologers. The strong minds, considered

astrology valid, but does not depend TOO MUCH on it and is ready to

face what may come. The weak is always not inferior – don't you

heard the Chinese proverb that softly flowing water cause corruption

even to the hardest rocks? I would ask everybody to take astrology

lightly and in an inquisitive spirit. Even if there is 1% uncertainty

that is important, right? It is uncertainty that makes life beautiful;

it is uncertainty is that makes will possible. (If you compare will and

destiny). Society always needs some psychological guidance – and if

take that responsibility, is it not necessary that you should equip

yourself with all the necessary tools? That is why the sincere

astrologer is forced to learn many subjects like – psychology,

details of rituals, morals and methods of people in the country he is

living in, environment, astrology, body language, study of nature and

what note. He is supposed to improve his knowledge continuously, and

keep his vigor always and live here and now! Yes, to the astrologers

who take study and practice of astrology seriously, it finally becomes

a responsibility than a game that can be used light heartedly. Because

they are interacting with the life of people. Alas who will tell this

fools more to depend on their efforts and capabilities, rather than

wait for the fate to bring all the luck of the world to them! Even if

we tell, they won't accept! As per Yanjchavalkaya Fate and Will are

equally important, and is like the 2 wheels of a chariot. With only one

wheel, where can it go? If a student goes for exam without studying

since the astrologer said that his fate is good and he is sure to pass

– will he pass? If a student goes to exam after studying almost

everything, putting in his strong will, but if the fate was against and

most of the questions where from the areas he left out – will he pass?

If the student is learning well putting in his full efforts (executing

will) and if the questions where all from the areas he studied well

(fate favored him) then he secures the maximum marks! Astrology is all

about the study of the 50% - the fate part, and tells you about its

trend – that is all to it. And you have the other part with you, the

will – execute it or not it is up to you! Those who understands it,

knows how to use and astrology, and also how to ignore it when you are

ready to face what may come. This is what I meant. Quote Jain school - Do you have any idea of approximate time period, like how many thousand years before was this? Unquote Jain religion started with Rishabha and in which the 24th

Teerthankara was Varthamana Mahaveera. Rishabha Deva is mentioned in

Vedas. Jain religion, starts from Rishabha Deva, and Jain school of

astrological thought existed even in the period of Skanda Hora

(Jyotishmati Upanishad). That means it should be near to or just after

the Vedic period. Quote Is astrology Vedic? Meaning, is the Vedic astrology, what we follow now, the right term? Unquote

Calling astrology Vedic would be a wrong terminology – since you won't

find much astrology in Vedas. But yes, the names of months such as

Madhu, Madhava etc and the name of Nakshatras and stars, Division of

stellar zodiac into Sayana and Nirayana, Horoscope prediction related

to the birth in Moola star, Muhurta etc you will find in Vedas. You

won't find signs like Aries, Taurus etc mentioned in Vedas, neither the

house system nor Dasas are mentioned in Vedas which forms the basis for

today's astrology. Further it seems that Vedic Rishis gave importance

to Tropical calendar and Nakshatra Chakra. Then who where the people

who preserved Sidereal calendar and Rasi Chakra – it seems that it was

Tantric. The conflict and competition between Tropical and Sidereal

calendar systems (Sayana and Nirayana, Devas and Asuras, Vedic and

Tantric, Nigama and Agama) was there for long. We may know more about

it more latter. Even coming to Mahabharata even though you can find

astrology, you cannot find astrology in today's form or the mention of

Rasis. But we know that the Skanda hora (Jyotishmati Upanishad) and the

texts like Garga hora are very ancient. If the astrology of Veda, or

Epic is not of today's mould then who you are going to call today's

astrology Vedic? Even it cannot be sure that astrology originated from

Vedas alone! As I mentioned earlier there could be several streams –

Vedic, Tantric, or Jain. Somebody would like to accept the mention of

Vedic and Tantric but not Jain. But if we look back into history,

Rishabha Deva was there even in Vedic period, and ask any North Indian

astrologer he will mention Surya Prajnchapti, and Chandra Prajnchapti

and will mention Rishiputra as the author. Who is Rishiputra – he is

the son of Garga Rishi who wrote Garga hora. I fail to understand why

the modern historians for astrology ignore Garga while mentioning Surya

Prajchapti and Chandra Prajnchapti as Jain contribution to astrology. Quote From the Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization period itself - was it before Indus valley? Unquote

They are the same. Since this civilization existed in the banks of the

rivers Sindhu and Sarasvati Rivers, it is better to call it

Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization than Indus valley civilization. That

is the name used now a day. Quote So, which is the system kerala astrologers follow mostly? Parasara / Jaimini / or the others Unquote

You could term it Arsha system or Sanatana system of astrology. It

starts with Skanda Hora of Skanda Deva. The ancient texts that are

considered of this stream are Skanda Hora, Brihat Prajapatyam, Leghu

Prajapatyam, Vasishta Hora, Kousika Hora, Saunaka Hora etc. And the

Gurus Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Viswamitra, Saunaka etc. In the period

of Varaha Mihira (550 AD), it absorbed Yavana system to a small extend.

(Caused by Mihira). Kerala astrologers accepted it as a mistake, and

they still gave value to the Arsha (or Sanatana) stream only. Garga was

appreciated more than Parasara, and Yavana was not ignored. They

(ancient Kerala astrologers) never knew much about Jaimini nor give

much importance to it. So in essence Kerala astrologers does not follow

Parasara system or Jaimini system, and not much bothered about it,

since they have another many vast storehouse of astrological knowledge

to look into. 1) The Arsha (or Sanatana) system they followed. 2) The Jain school (Garga Hora) and the knowledge it provided. 3) The Yavana school (Yavaneswara, Sphujidhwaja, Meenaraja) and the knowledge it provided. If

you want to ignore all this ancient and locate the Acharya in AD then,

you should better term the Kerala school or system of astrology as the

"Mihira School" or better "Mihira-Aryabhatta School" since in

Siddhantic astronomy they valued Aryabhata and in astrology Mihira and

the ancient Rishis. But yes, one thing we should accept. The Vimsottari

Dasa system suggested by Parasara later became a very well appreciated

favored Dasa system, which was used by almost all. So we should say

that the Kerala system was never against Parasara as well, though it

does not use many of his concepts that were not at all mentioned by

Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Viswamitra and Garga. Many of Parasara's

ideas are entirely different from the common and well-appreciated

stream of astrology taught by these Rishis, and that caused the

alienation of Parasara. Same with Jaimini. His concepts where entirely

different from the well-accepted common stream of astrology – further

he put everything in to sutras and not in slokas! Keralites just

ignored Jaimini!!! This is what I know about the History of astrology

followed or preserved in Kerala. Rama Vootala: Quote As

per Yanjchavalkaya Fate and Will are equally important, and is like the

2 wheels of a chariot. With only one wheel, where can it go? Unquote That's

a very good example. I think together they make an event 100% and we

never know the composition. So it's better we always give 100% of will.

Fate surely would give it's 100%. In a big picture, what is different between Kerala astrology and BPHS / Jaimini?

Dont Kerala astrologers follow karakas (atma, amatya, etc..) and are

the yogas different (like guru chandala, mahapurusha, gaja kesari,etc)? Do you look at varga charts like dasamsa, saptamsa, etc? or is it Rasi, Bhava, Graha, Rasi-bhava, Rasi-Graha etc and other combinations and that too only in Rasi and Navamsa charts? Sreenadh: Quote That's

a very good example. I think together they make an event 100% and we

never know the composition. So it's better we always give 100% of will.

Fate surely would give it's 100%. Unquote

Yes, for sure. There is an interesting guess mathematics. Let

possibility of an event be 100%. Of this Destiny = 50% (Pre-defined)

Will = 50% (Supposed to be non-predefined) But the tendency to

execute will is pre-defined! So give it 25%. That means in the normal

situation we will get 25% out put from will only. The remaining 25% is

the pure chance - that depends on the execution of the first 25% and

environment. Allow a normal 10% to it. When we are trying to predict the first 50%; If we make even a 30% accurate prediction, then, we get a result – 30% + 25% + 10% = 65% Accurate prediction! If the prediction (for destiny part) is 40% then we get - 40% + 25% + 10% = 75% Accurate prediction! Even if we make a normal 50% prediction for a normal effort putting person, then too, we get- 25% + 25% +10% = 60% Accurate prediction! See how our work becomes simplified!!!

Lesson to learn: Don't try to make accurate predictions, for persons

with atleast normal will. Because then you have to convert all that

plus 10 % to minus 10% at least. Don't extend it too much. It is just guess mathematics, without any statistical basis. Just having some mathematics fun. Quote In

a big picture, what is different between Kerala astrology and BPHS /

Jaimini? Don't Kerala astrologers follow karakas (atma, amatya, etc..)

and are the yogas different (like guru

chandala, mahapurusha, gaja kesari, etc)? Do you look at varga charts

like Dasamsa, Saptamsa, etc? or is it Rasi, Bhava, Graha, Rasi-Bhava, Rasi-Graha, etc. and other combinations and that too only in Rasi and Navamsa charts? Unquote All big questions - Can't be answered fully in a single mail. So I give a brief description only. 1) In a big picture, what is different between Kerala astrology and BPHS / Jaimini? Read

Mihira, Parasara & Jaimini - you will see the difference. Usually

what ever there in common is part of the Arsha stream, the remaining

are new inventions (or peculiar traditions) that are usually ignored. 2) Don't Kerala astrologers follow karakas (atma, amatya, etc..) and are the yogas different (like guru chandala, mahapurusha, gaja kesari,etc)? Yes, All karakas and 'special yogas' you mentioned are there. But nobody would be calculating an 'Atma karaka' for a chart (that is Parasara system) - Sun is atma karaka by natural significance. 3) Do you look at varga charts like Dasamsa, Saptamsa, etc?

There is NO VARGA CHARTS, but all Vargas like Hora, Drekkana, Navamsa

etc are considered. While predicting with 'considering' Navamsa as

well, Navamsa are written outside the Rasi chart near to relevant signs

(similar to the 'Mixed 2 Vargas' style in JHora) and predictions given

based on that. In other words Rasi chart and Navamsa Varga are

super-imposed and predictions are based on that. Drishti is considered

only in Rasi chart. This same style of prediction applies to all other

Vargas. I will later explain to you with examples, and will explain how

the systems differ. Quote Or is it Rasi, Bhava, Graha, Rasi-Bhava, Rasi-Graha, etc and other combinations Unquote Don't

confuse the fundamental Yogas (mixing of significance methods) in

Astrology, and the 'Special Yogas' you mention about. These 2 stands in

2 different levels of thinking. There could be only 7 fundamental Yogas

(mixing methods/combinations), but there could be thousands of special

yogas. Remember all these thousands of special yogas also falls into

the basic 7 fundamental Yogas (combinations/mixing methods). The

translation of the word Yoga (which really means combination) as

'mixing methods' is not proper - but I think it will help you to grasp

the concept. Rama Vootala: I found a similar article that I liked and wanted to share with you all. http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles/The_Riddle_of_Fate_and_Free.htm Sreenadh: That was a good article. Thanks for providing the link. [Editor:

The thread ended. Even though some specialties of Kerala astrology got

mentioned, at the end it seems that the major point got discussed and

found an agreement is the correlation of Fate and Freewill with

astrology] - 0 -