About Prasna - Kerala style

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About Prasna - Kerala style

( Source: AIA Website: About Prasna - Kerala Style )

 

Last Updated on Wednesday, 22 April 2009 13:24

 

Written by Kannan, Sreenadh OG, Madhu Nair, Sree Kumar

 

Wednesday, 22 April 2009 13:21 [Participants: Kannan, Sreenadh OG, Madhu Nair, Sree Kumar] [Editor: Sreenadh OG] Admin Note: Any editor preparing such write-ups based on AIA Group conversations are requested to follow the below guidelines. The participants and editors name should be mentioned at the top of the documentThe

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avoided. Always give the original thread URL as a reference, in the beginning of the document. [Thread: /message/280] [This is a conversation record write-up prepared based on a thread happened in AIA . Please note that, many points from the original discussion might have been omitted here to make this readable] Kannan: Kindly

tell me about the procedure of Prasna, how it is done in Kerala. Kindly

also tell me about the use of Kavadi (shells) in Prasna and also about

the concept of Blocking of Arudha. Concept of Arudha as per Kerala tradition Sreenadh: Quote Kindly tell me about the procedure of Prasna, how it is done in Kerala. Unquote What

kind of Prasna you mean? If in Kerala style - Normal Prasna, Tamboola

Prasna, Ashtamangala Prasna etc. Several types of Prasna are there.

About which one you are asking? Please clarify. Quote Kindly also tell me about the use of Kavadi (shells) in Prasna Unquote Kavadi

is one of the main tools used by Kerala astrologers from ancient

period. Yes, it is still used by most of the Kerala astrologers. It is

used for two purposes. 1) For getting the Arudha (It is different from the BPHS-Jaimini Arudha concept) 2) For doing the mathematical calculations. I will describe the first. As per Krishneeyam 2 types of Zodiacs are considered. 1) The Chara Chakra (Moving Zodiac) that is there in the sky. 2) The Sthira Chakra (Fixed Zodiac) that is imagined to be present around the astrologer. A

super imposition of the two is used in Prasna. The sign (in the zodiac

around the astrologer) in which the qurrent is standing (or sitting) is

considered as the Arudha. [Aaroodhatwal prischakena

rasiraroodhamuchyate. Meaning it is because the qurrent is standing on

that sign it is called Arudha]. It is known as "Sthityarudha". If the

"Sthityarudha" is not known then, the astrologer will ask the qurrent

to place a coin (In Ashtamangala Prasna, golden coin) on any of the

signs of the Rasi Chakra that is drawn in front of the astrologer. Usually

this (golden) coin is mixed with flowers and rice and is given in the

hand of the qurrent and the astrologer asks him to place it any of the

signs in Rasi Chakra. If "Sthityarudha" is not known, then this sign is

taken as "Arudha". This is the usual procedure followed. This usually

known as "Swarnarudha", the Arudha got with placing of gold. If

multiple questions are there, or if the astrologer need to answer

temporary questions, then he puts his hand over the 108 shells he used

to keep along with, recites 'namaH sivaya' (usually for 108 times),

recites the other usual mantras he recites, and takes a handful of

Kavadi (shells). Then he divides it will 12 and the reminder no, would

be taken to indicate a sign, and that sign is considered as Arudha. For

example if the astrologer happened to take 58 shells in his hand, then

61/12 gives 1 as the remainder and then Aries is taken as the Arudha.

This is one use of Kavadi (shells). Arudha is given more importance

than Prasna, since it is said in Prasnamarga that, "Tasmin samyag

parijchate sarvam tenaiva chintyatam". Meaning, if the astrologer knows

the Arudha then everything can be predicted with it. This statement is

applicable to Sthityarudha, Swarnarudha, or Arudha. Quote Also about the concept of Blocking of Arudha Unquote Blocking

of Arudha is a concept that is used to validate the relationship

between Arudha and Lagna at the time of Prasna. If the Lagna is in the

2-4-6-8-10-12 houses from Arudha, then it is said that 'Arudha is

blocked' (Arudha Vedha). It is said that if the Arudha is blocked (by

Lagna) then the Prasna will not indicate the clear and correct remedies

that should be undertaken, and the Prasna will not give fruitful

results and that the exact reason for the troubles and turbulences

encountered by the qurrent in life won't be revealed by that Prasna. If

the Arudha is blocked in a Prasna, then the astrologer immediately used

to suggest some remedies, before proceeding with Prasna. It is believed

that, Arudha is blocked – For 2nd house - Due to Anger of Deities (Deva Kopa) For 4th house - Due to Anger of Family god (Dharma Deva) For 6th house - Due to the activities of Enemies (Satru Badha) For 8th house - Due to Anger of Ancestors (Pitr Kopa) For 12th house - Due to Anger of bad spirits (Preta kopa) These

are the views given in texts like 'Deva prasna muktavali'. Even if

Arudha is blocked Prasna would continue, but it would be informed to

the qurrent that all his troubles wouldn't be cured completely, since

the Prasna itself indicates that locating the exact reason for problems

and remedies would be difficult in such situation. Madhu Nair: The

cowries also known "Kavadis" are 108 in number. Firstly, the cowries

are cleansed in pure water. Then it is immersed in "Cow's urine" for a

day. Then it is kept in "Panchagavya" (An Ayurvedic preparation

available in all Ayurvedic medical outlets of Kerala, made out from

five products, obtained from cow) for couple of days. Subsequently, it

is kept in tender coconut water for a day. Again in rose water for

another day. Then touching these Cowries, Ganesha Gayatri

is chanted minimum of 1008 (In earlier times, 24,000) in the early

hours of the day. After that, touching the cowries, Dakshinamurthy

Mantra (some go for Divine Panchakshari) is chanted 1008 times. On an

auspicious Muhurta, when Jupiter is powerful and well placed from the

Ascendant, this is handed over to the disciple by the preceptor. The method of analysis When

a qurrent approach the astrologer, after praying to Lord Ganesha and

Ishta Devata, and prayer to Almighty citing the name Nakshatra and age

of the qurrent, is made with a request to grant the correct Ascendant

that will reflect the qurrent past, present and future. A handful of

cowries are taken. Expunging the multiples of 12, the remaining is

taken as the "Arudha". The rising sign is technically called "Udaya

Lagna". A comparison is made between the Arudha and the rising sign.

While conducting the Prasna, the Astrologer will carefully notice the

Omens technically called "Nimittas". If the Arudha is in 6-8-12 from

rising sign, it is generally believed, the Prasna is hindered

(Blocked). Exceptions are there. Say, if rising is Taurus and Arudha is

Libra, there is no hindrance to Prasna; reason is both these signs are

owned by one and the same planet, that is, Venus. Between

- All these cawri purifying, and allied affairs are things of the past.

It is now Westerners, who are showing real interest in such things. Blocking of Arudha Kannan: Many

thanks for your explanations. One more query, Is Jupiter's position

from Arudha also consider for Blocking/hindrance to Arudha. Also what

if the Arudha is blocked? How to proceed next? Sreenadh: Jupiter

has nothing to do with this 'Not the popular' concept of 'Blocking of

Aroodha'. If Mo is 6-8-12 from Ju, then it is a popular yoga in

astrology known as 'Sakata Yoga'. Is it that, the one that is confusing

you? Quote Also what if the Arudha is blocked? How to proceed next? Unquote Answer already given. "Suggest the remedies and proceed with the Prasna". Kannan: I

was asking about Jupiter basis my talks with an astrologer some time

back. That day I was sitting with the astrologer for 2-3 hours, during

that time he was conducting Prashna for many clients (at his place of

work). I felt Jupiter's position much important in Prashna as I heard

during that time, statements like 'Jupiter is hiding', 'God's grace is

not there' etc basis Jupiter's positioning from Arudha. May be I

misunderstood that with blocking. Sreenadh: Quote Statements like 'Jupiter is hiding', 'God's grace is not there' etc basis Jupiter's positioning from Arudha. Unquote Yes, while considering "Daivanukoolya" (God's grace) Jupiter is considered and the astrologer was right on that regard. Quote May be I misunderstood that with blocking. Unquote Yes, you did. Madhu Nair (to Kannan): No

matter where Jupiter is, blocking is considered with respect to Arudha

and Rising Sign relation (2/12, 6/8) only. Earlier, the astrologers use

to abandon the Prasna altogether. The qurrent is asked to meet the

Astrologer on another day. If Prasna is blocked, the remedial measures

fails to work. It is also an indication of adverse time ahead for the

qurrent. Personally, based on real life experience, I feel such a

directive is quite unwarranted. I will explain. Often the Arudha

reflects the current situation of the person posing the question. The

rising sign or Udaya Lagna (Asc) apparently indicates the future. A

Shashtashtama (6/ 8) indicates, Disease, Debts, Litigation, Mental

Anguish, Insult / loss of reputation, scandals etc and Dwir-dwadasa

(2/12) between these two is a pointer towards Change of

residence/station, foreign travel, expenses, trouble from secret

enemies, problems to ones children, in relevant cases imprisonment,

raid in ones business establishment/ residence etc. As I mentioned in

my previous message, these are general statements, and should not be

taken literally without considering the Prasna chart as a whole. Always

remember the entire Kerala Prasna branch revolves around two things 1) Gulika

(Note: should be calculated as per Uttara Kalamrita directive and not

BPHS) There exist a difference of about 20* between these two. 2) Badha Sthanas (Houses of harm): Two meanings are accorded to Badha Sthanas viz (a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed The second meaning is widely applied (And often abused or misused) by professional Keralite astrologers. [Editor:

The discussion sidetracked here with Sreenadh disagreeing to arguments

related to Gulika and Badhaka Sthana presented by Madhu Nair] Use of Gulika and Bahadaka Sthana in Kerala astrology Sreenadh: Quote Always remember the entire Kerala Prasna branch revolves around two things 1) Gulika

(Note: should be calculated as per Uttara Kalamrita directive and not

BPHS) There exist a difference of about 20* between these two. 2) Badha Sthanas (Houses of harm): Two meanings are accorded to Badha Sthanas viz (a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed Unquote I would differ with both the points with pleasure – since they can direct the research in new directions. Gulika Gulika

and Mandi are widely confused concepts. Though later they become

synonyms, as per ancient astrology they are different. BPHS,

Uttarakalamrita, Phaladeepika, Madhaveeyam Prasnasaram etc supports

this argument. Uttara kalamrita "separately gives" the methods to

calculate them, and calls them as "two sons of" Saturn. We should

understand this point clearly. So as per ancient terminology – Gulika – The beginning point of Yama assigned to Saturn (BPHS, Gulikolpatti) Mandi – The end point of complete Muhurta within the Yama assigned to Saturn. (Uttara kalamrita, Phaladeepika etc) As

you said, there is about 20* difference between the two, and the one

with the ancient name `Mandi' is popular in Kerala, especially in

Prasna. In horoscope Gulika is more important and should be considered

since it helps birth time rectification! Use of Gulika for BT

rectification is supported by many acharyas, but Mandi cannot be and

should not be used for this purpose. Prasna Ratna, Prasna Sangraha,

Jataka Parijata and Prasna sara unanimously states that – "The Lagna would be in the trines of Gulika or Gulika Navamsa"! But the same or similar opinion is not available concerning Mandi. I

was totally confused the unanimity the books are showing in this

regard, and is of the opinion that "it should be tested/validated". If

it proved to be true we can accept it, or discard it. But yes this

necessitates that we should treat Gulika and Mandi separately. Yes, I

agree that after the period of Phaladeepika, especially in and after

the period of Prasnamarga, considering these 2 words as synonyms is

present. Again, I stated all these because – 1) To initiate some research in use of Gulika in BT rectification. 2) "Calculation

of Gulika as per Uttara Kalamrita" – But in Uttara kalamrita both

Gulika and Mandi are mentioned, but yes it gives only the calculation

method for Mandi. [it might be that the use of the word `Mandaja' (Son

of Sa) to mention both of them, that started causing the confusion to

all]. Yes, I know that you know this difference, and was just following

the Prasnamarga style of using these names as synonyms, but I just took

it as a chance to present the 1st point. [iI] Badhakastana Prasnamarga mentions it as the last step only, while considering the divine obstacles only. Problems

could be caused by two reasons – Worldly or Devine. (Yes, `divine'

could mean `caused by bad spirits' or caused by `gods' in this context) In

the first part Prasnamarga does not use the concept of Badhaka Sthana

while considering the first but only on the second! Also except in

Prasna, the ancient classics on astrology, Varaha Hora or Rishi Horas

before that DOES NOT mention Badhaka Sthana. We do not have much

evidence to support the use of Badhaka Sthana in Jataka (horoscope).

There are many statements that say that the rules for Jataka () can be

used in Prasna as well, but there is "no statement" which says that the

rules of Prasna can be used in Jataka! So, Even though I would agree

with your views on to an extend as far as Prasna is concerned, would

like to differ while talking about Jataka. Madhu Nair: What

I have written to Kannan is what we really see or experience in

Keralite astrological parlance. Almost all astrologers of repute in

Kerala are one way or the other found to be following this. You see,

the modern techniques like KP etc have very few followers in Kerala,

and most of the astrologers still rely on the Cowries. Recently in a

public forum (Kerala) when I tried to make a case with Gulika,

calculated as per BPHS, in Parasara's light ultimate software, the

elderly astrologers raised a big hue and cry. They won't

accept or agree with BPHS calculations. What you say might be the Truth

but in Kerala it will certainly cause stiff opposition from Traditional

astrologers who are used only to UK calculation, and will never accept

that they are erroneously considering Mandi as Gulika Sreenadh: Quote Recently

in a public forum (Kerala) when I tried to make a case with Gulika,

calculated as per BPHS, in Parasara light ultimate software, the

elderly astrologers raised a big hue and cry. They won't accept or

agree with BPHS calculations. What you say might be the Truth but in

Kerala it will certainly cause stiff opposition from Traditional

astrologers who are used only to UK calculation, and will never accept

that they are erroneously considering Mandi as Gulika. Unquote I am not talking of any change in practices - it is not necessary. The point I am trying to make is - 1) Use of Gulika (as per BPHS) is the one supported by classics for BT rectification issues. 2) Use of Mandi (as per Phaladeepika etc) is the one supported for Prasna predictions in Karla astrology. 3) Let others confuse the 2 terms if they want. But let us be, systematic and sincere in following the words of ancient Rishis. 4) Traditional

Kerala astrologers won't accept many ideas we talk about. Remember the

recent Panchanga controversy. Modern efforts to correlate it with

science or holistic approach, modern techniques used by individuals

like you, the circadian rhythm etc Chandrahari is interested in, the

Ayanamsa issue, what ever you take, they are not going to accept many

things. Let us forget the astrologers (Let it be of south or north,

eastern or western) but rather depend on the oldest available books at

one end - and systematic logical holistic approach in the middle -

scientific and mathematical tools and systems (experiments) at the

other end; that is the better path I feel. I was pointing to the

ancient view of the same in astrological classics. Shouldn't we more

concerned about the truth rather than currently followed practices? I

hope you would agree. 5) It

would be worth remembering that we are all considered almost as

'Rebels' by almost all the steams of astrology - let it be south or

north. We are not supposed to support or uphold anybodies (here normal

Kerala astrologers) views - if not we are finding them as correct and

supported by ancient astro classics - that is my opinion. [Editor: Kannan brought back the discussion to the main thread with the following comment] Kannan (to Madhu Nair): Thanks for the clarifications. You wrote Quote Badha Sthanas - Two meanings are accorded to Badha Sthanas viz (a) Obstruction (b) To be possessed Unquote I am not clear on option (b). If you have time, kindly elaborate. Also importance of Gulika in Prashna. Madhu Nair: The

first meaning is self-explanatory. But countable few alone pursue that

one. The vast majority of Keralite astrologers follow the other

meaning, that is, to be possessed. It could be any thing, evil spirits,

goblins, curses of preceptors, enemies etc. Say for example, if Sat,

the 6L of enemies occupies Pisces (Badhaka place for Virgo Ascendant),

in a Prasna, with Virgo rising, Astrologers say the qurrent suffers

from Sathru Badha; means, he will have trouble from enemies. If

Rahu occupies Badha Sthana - predict trouble from Snakes/ members of

other religion, fungal infection between thighs, viral disease etc If

Jupiter - troubles on account of curse of pious Brahmins/preceptor,

Hepatitis, intestinal problems, legal complication, disease connected

with vocal chord etc Venus - troubles due to females, Yakshi, venereal disease etc Gulika - Troubles due to Manes, ghost etc Saturn - problems from low type people, Deities such as Sastha, Demigods of the Jungle, Lord Shiva etc Mars - Due to angst of Lord Subramanya, trouble from owns own blood relatives, siblings, cops, arms and ammunition etc NB:

In a real case study, the Astrologer told the qurrent he has incurred

the wrath of Lord Subramanya, and strangely the qurrent admitted that

contrary to the vow taken, he failed to perform tonsuring of head in a

famous temple of Lord Subramanya in Tamilnadu, for some favors received. Mercury - Trouble from Lord Vishnu and HIS devotees, Maternal uncle/aunt, nephew, niece, friends, youngsters, media etc Sun

- Trouble from Government, Fatherly figure, excessive heat of body,

sunstroke, eye disease cardiac disease, curse of Lord Shiva etc Moon - Problems to or on account of Mom, Mother Goddess, troubles in mammary gland, eyesight, etc Ketu - Severe back pain, angst of Lord Ganesha, sodalities, inviting the wrath of members of other religion etc Mutual

Aspect/Conjunction between 7L and Badha lord or If Badha lord aspects

the ascendant lord or the ascendant, problems to qurrent on account of

"evil eye" (Very Correct in actual experience) According to textbooks 27 varieties of spirits possess human beings. Use of Kavadi prevalent in Prashna Kannan: Thanks,

one more query. Do you use Kavadis? If not then how you are conducting

Prashna. I am asking this because I heard that use of Kavadis require

many pooja's/fast/devotion etc. before getting started. If a learner

wants to try a Prashna how can he do that, without using Kavadis? Like

in a situation where I want to do a Prashna for myself (assuming that I

know some theories). In this case the Astrologer and qurrent both are

same and he cannot use Kavadi. Kindly reply. Madhu Nair: If

it is a self-query, go for a Time chart or a horary based on KP, by

selecting a number in random between 0 & 250. Always remember, in

the query Moon should clearly reflect the mental status of the qurrent

and Ascendant the query itself. If it is not clearly reflected in the

chart, query should be deemed to be frivolous. Sreenadh: I

do use Kavadi while doing normal Prasna; or while participating in

Tamboola Prasna, Ashtamangala Prasna etc. It is normally an usual tool

with any Keralite astrologer. But Kavadi is not always a must for

conducting Prasna. You can ask the qurrent to – 1) Tell a number and cast Arudha find Arudha and think of chart thereupon. 2) Based on the first letter of the query you can find Arudha and think of chart there upon. 3) As told earlier you can use the "Sthityarudha" 4) You can use Lagna and cast Prasna based on that. There are many more methods as well, well supported by the Kerala style, and astrology Prasna classics. Sreekumar: Thanks

a lot for the info. Being in Kerala I have seen Kavadi is indispensable

thing among Kerala astrologers. This even made me believe that Kavadi

has some special powers like crystal that can make the astrologers mind

for mood of Prashna. As

I can see, the uniqueness of Kerala is its Prashna. It stands out in

every form and it is very powerful. Prashna with Kavadi makes it

unique. Moreover, the few astrologers that I have interacted has

revealed that they keep Kavadi for Pooja in temples for 21 days etc ,

once a year etc , and that time they wont cast any Prasna or horoscope.

Sreenadh: Any

thing can become divine, it you treat it that way. Kavadi is divine for

a Kerala astrologer since he is treating it that way. This is mainly

due to 3 factors. 1) Calculations

were/are done with Kavadi. In Kerala even today who do mathematical

calculations using Kavadi faster than calculators at times. 2) It

symbolizes the Guru-Sishya relation, the tradition. It is almost

essential and useful in many instances like taking 'Arudha'. 3) The

system of Prasna described in Prasnamarga (i.e. Ashtamangala Prasna)

demands he use of Kavadi, since in Ashtamangala Prasna the 108 Kavadi

(shells) are divided into three, and a lot of predictions are done

(especially in temples) based on that. It is an elaborate system of

prediction, and Prasnamarga well depicts that. So if one wants to

conduct an Ashtamangala Prasna then, Kavadi becomes essential. 4) When

you use something for long, when it is important to you, when your guru

gives it to, divinity gets attached to it naturally. Quote Moreover,

the few astrologers that I have interacted has revealed that they keep

Kavadi for Pooja in temples for 21 days etc, once a year etc, and that

time they wont cast any Prashna or horoscope Unquote Yes, we do. [The

thread ended there. The discussion was informative. All the 3 items

such as - 1) Arudha concept 2) Use of Kavadi in Prasna and 3) Arudha

Blocking - is clearly dealt with in the discussion and satisfactory

answers given]