[WAVES-Vedic] Fwd: Krittikadi

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Dear all,

 

The Solar months of Madhu, Madhava, Tapah and Tapashya are Seasonal months of the Tropical Zodiac whereas the Solar months like Magha and Phalguna are the Sidereal months based on the Sun's position in the 12 Rashi divisions of the ecliptic as told by the Suryasiddhanta. The royal sage Manu mentions the Margashirsha, Phalguna and Chaitra and Lord Krishna also mentions Margashirsha in Bhagavad Gita. I wonder why Avatar Kaulji did not try to understand this.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sun, 4/19/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved wrote:

Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved[WAVES-Vedic] Fwd: Re: Krittikadivedic_research_institute Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 11:58 PM

 

 

HinduCalendar, "Avtar Krishen Kaul" <jyotirved@. ..> wrote:Shri Hari Malla ji,Namaskar!Vedic solar months, whether u name them Tapah, Tapasya etc. or Magha, Phalguna etc. have absolutely nothing to do with New and Full Moons. They have, on the other hand, everything to do with the two equinoxes and solstices! That means that Vedic solar months are directly related to seasons!On the other hand, it is the Vedic lunar synodic months that are dependent on solar months. As and when there are more than one New Moon between two solar ingresses, there is a lunar adhika masa! As and when there is no New moon between two solar months, that is a kshyaya masa! If u delink the lunar synodic months from seasonal solar months, u will be following

the Hejira i.e. Muslim calendar! Since the real Vedic lunar months are related to seasonal solar months, so called nirayana lunar months are equally an Islamic calendar since those months are not related to seasonal solar months but to Lahiri solar months!Now coming to the nirayana versus sayana myth! Solar months are neither nirayana nor sayana, since that curse is meant only for Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis! In fact the nirayana myth has been created by Hindu jyotihis on the basis of the most monstrous astronomical work viz. Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha! Those jyotishis had to invent an anti-nirayana myth and they named that myth as sayana!Astronomically, there are no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, since the Rashichakra itself is an imaginary belt! Its components can never be real since if the sum total of the parts itself is imaginary, its ingredients are also imaginary! That obivates the possibility of niryana-versus- sayana myth even

scientifically!Regarding the Pauranic lore, whenever any Mesha, Vrihsa etc. Rashis have been mentioned, they are all related to seasons! (Pl. see npj3.doc, BVB6.doc, 1999b.doc). As such, even the Pauranic lore does not talk of any so called nirayana curse!"Vedic astrologers" themselves are running after imaginary ayanamshas! There is no astrological work, except the fake Brihat Parasharis galore, that has talked of any Ayanamsha myth! It is therefore a moot point as to what Ayanamsha the authors of those wroks, right from Sphujidwaja' s Yavana Jatakam through Brihat Jatakam and Uttarakalarta or Jataka Paraijata or Manasagari etc. etc. to Mukunda Daivajnyas Triskanda Jyotisha used since no work on predictive astrology has talked about any ayanamsha!As such, why are are clamouring for an imaginary will of the wisp, which will only scuttle your own efforts for reforming the Hindu calendar?With regards,A K KaulHinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@> wrote:>> Dear Kaul Saheb,> namaskar!To continue my discussion,let us coin a new word.The authentic nirayan sankranti.When a nirayan sankranti has the right to represent the sayan sankranti, we may say it the authentic nirayan sankranti.If it has no right then it is not authorised.how does the authority come? It is given by the full moon zone.If the connected full moon zone embraces the sayan sankrani too, then that nirayan sankranti has the authentic right to represent that sayan sankranti too.The present makar sankanti had the authentic right to represent the sayan sankranti till 1400 AD.The reseaon is til then the connected full moon the Poush Purnima embraced the sayan sankranti every third year during

its fluctuation. So if the puranas say makar sankranti for uttaryan during that period, it means the nirayan makar sankranti which had the authentic right to represent the sayan uttaryan.It did not mean the sayan uttarayan sankranti itself.This is proved by the practice too.We do> magh snana till date on the nirayan sakranti.We cannot say it was wrong to do so.Only the dead habit was carried over from the authentic days to the present, when that authentication is no more.This may be called as the inadvertant use of the custome. At present the authentic makaar sankranti is the present dhanu sankranti. Because the present Mangsir purnima does embrace the sayan sankranti giving the authentic representation to Dhanu sankranti, as nirayan uttarayan, being situated at the middle of the zone of Mangsir purnima.Thus the need to shift the name of Poush fullmoon to mangsir fullmoon, and the name of makar sankranti to

the present Dhanu sankranti .This shifting of the name is to be done during calender reform process in the sayan fashion, to uphold our dharma shastras, as suggested by SB Dixit.Then all problems are solved.The rashis can continue to remain in the new positon for another 15 00- 2000 years.These rashis may be called> as the epochal nirayan rashis.The old rashis as original rashis,as they are. The authentic representation of the nirayan sankranti is also restored by the new epochal rashis.The appropriate full moon which embraces the sayan sankranti is also restored.How do we get the power to shift the names like this. This is making use of the sayan system, which gives us the right to shift the names.In this way we go on coordinating the epochal nirayan sankranti with the sayan sankrantis every 2150 years, and authorised them to represent the sayan sankranti, which is the present practice. > From the story which

was narrated, this authority is given to Vishnu (or the nirayan sakranti) by Shiva( fullmoon) and Brahma (or sayan sakranti) does not get that right.Brahma is the pole star, Vishnu is the sun.Thus solar nirayan sankranti gets the right to represent the full moon(shiva) i.e. to get worshipped, but the sayn sankranti does not get that right.This is our present practice too.Only calculation may be done on the basis of the sayan sakranti.> Have I been able to clarify? Please reply.thank you,> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Hari Malla <harimalla@>> HinduCalendar> Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:11:24

PM> Re: [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > Dear Kaul saheb,> I feel my previous reply was not to the point.Please let me express my viewpoint about sayan and nirayan.You will agree that when the two sankrantis are at the same point as in the beginning, it is the same wether we say sayan or nirayan.They have the same meaning.In the same way with respect to festivals if both the sankranits are within the same fullmoon zone we do not have to bother wether it is sayan or nirayn, because to that fullmon both the sayana and the nirayan sankranits are meeting it, as it were, it is at the same point as in the beginning.This realisation is important.Sayan and nirayan meeting at the same solar date occurs only may be one year (or for a few years they are not distinguishable) .But sayan and nirayan value for tithi is effective not only one or a few years, but is valid for over 1000 years if

considered on one side, and taking both sides it is valid even for 2000years.This is very important to understand.Most people do not> seem to understand that.> Thus my claim is that during the vedanga jyotish period it was not sayan as many people are prone to think it was both sayan and nirayan at the same time.It was sayan and nirayan both at the same time even during the rashi period too, if understood in a special way.How is this possible?> Now we have to come to understand nirayan sakranti with a special meaning.The special meaning is this, nirayan sankranti is the middle point of full moon zone. This is more exact meaning than the nirayan sankranit is as attached to a certain star.The fullmoon is attached to two or three nakshyatras and the nirayan sankranti is at the middle of the two or three nakshyatras as the middle of the fullmoon zone.To understand what I am trying to say,one should

get the habit of knowing that the sankranti and the fullmoon zone are at 180 degrees apart.for example mesh sanrkanti is opposite(or at 180 degrees) to the mid point of chitraa nakshyatara. this habit is very good to undertand the coordinated system of calender reform.It is necessary to know about the concept of integrated sakranti- fullmon zone.Here in Nepal we have made drawing of the 12 sankranti-full moon zones. they are named as 1.mesh sankranti- chaitra full moon zone 2.Vrish> sankranti-Baisakh full moon zone etc etc.upto 12 sankranti-fullmoon zones.> AS long as the sayan sakranti is within one full moon zone then the tropical and the sidereal sankrantis being within the same fullmoon have the dual meaning of it being both sayan and nirayan at the same time.may e I stop here.but i wil make it clearer next time.thanking you,> Sincerely yours,> Hari Malla>

> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>> HinduCalendar> Sunday, April 19, 2009 6:52:13 PM> [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > Shri Hari Malla ji,> Namaskar!> I am still out of town and will be back in Delhi on April 23. I am just tryinhg to catch with the backlog from my mobile phone internet, lest people consider me a spent force!> However, the more I read your mails, the more amused I am! > U can decide Vedic rashis being sayana or nirayana only after u can quote the Vedic mantras that talk of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis! There are no such curses in the Rik Jyotisham,

Yajur Jyotisham or even Atharva Veda Parishishta, leave alone any of the Vedas! Thus Mesha etc. rashis are conspicuous by their absence from the Vedic lore!> Some "Vedic astrologers" call Srimad Bhagavatam as Panchama Veda! They may be right! But when it comes to discussion about the nature of Rahsi in that Panchama Veda, they start saying blah, blah, blah! What types of rashis are in the Puranas will be clear from 1999b.doc and also BVB6.doc. All those Pauranic rashis are so called sayana!> Personally, I have yet to find any mention of any so called nirayana Rashichakra in any of the Puranas or even the Sidhantas! If u have come across such references, pl. do enlighten me!> With regards,> A K Kaul> > HinduCalendar, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Prashant Pandeyji,> > <But for Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi

tail lenay for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).>> > > > For your devotion to your dharma, I want to tell you a famous story of our dharma explaining the importance and limitation of sayan sankranti and nirayan sankrantis.It is said once a quarrel started between Brahmaji and Vishnuji as to who was the greater between them.The quarrel went unsettled for ten thousand divya varsha.Then suddenly there appeard a flame of light between them and both were surprised to see this third thing appearing.They were curious toknow waht it was. Branhma anted to find where its top as and flew upwards and vishunu wanted to find its rootor bottom and went downwards.Later Vishnu appeared saying he could not find the bottom.Then Brhama appeared saying he found the top and brought with him witnesses one of which was the kamadhenu cow.Now shiva appeared efore them and said,Brahama told al lie saying he found the top without findngg it, so he

shall not be worshippeed. but because Vishnu admeiitted the truth, he will b> > worshipped.Theyn say taht is the reason why we have no temple towordhip Brahmaji.> > Here follows the astrological meaning of the story.Brahma is pole star or north star.Vishnu is the sun whom we call Surya narayan.The pole star is high in the sky above the north pole.> > From the pole star looking down we see the earth, which is also known as the cow, kamadhenu.Thus looking from the earth or north pole up towards the sky,the pole star is apparently seen as the top of the sky.But the truth is that the lunar pole or the centre of the lunar orbit ie. bary centre is the actual top, which is Shiva himself.Now we should know that the sayan sankranti is related to the pole star or its postion. The nirayan sankranti is related to the sun and the solar sankranti.This is why we give importance to the nirayan sankranit and

not to the sayan sankranti for religious purpose and also in astrology, although we take the sayan positon for the actual calculations of the heavenly bodies etc.> > I hope I have expresssed what I wanted to say.> > thanking you,> > Sincerely yours,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > Prashant Pandey <praspandey@ ...>> > HinduCalendar> > Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:18:15 AM> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > > > > > > > <I recently heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of their festivals.This is what worries me.>> > > > yeahoooo> > > > ting ding ding ding ding

!> > > > Sirji this is the reality of our HINDU DHARMA. Believe me!> > > > We had tropical calendar in past, this our Dharma Grantha says.That is our ancient Vedic Calendar in true sense.> > > > Sir for your kind information south indian's are best in astrology and about knowing the ancient facts of Hindu Dharma.> > > > I was also aware that South Indians will start this reform and will reinstate our vedic calendar because they are the best, and they have courage.> > > > All naadi astrological works are from south india.Thy have done beautifull research, no doubt, i should say they are best in the world in astrology.> > > > We can abuse Kaulji but he is correct in his research.S B Dixit, i think also South Indian, he has also said same thing and now in South India, some temples have reinstaed the Vedic Calendar.Good News!> >

> > I am also also ardent follower of Nirayan (Sidereal) sytem(also of tropical).> > > > But for Hindu Dharma, i will put my astrology a side(astrology gayi tail lenay for meray pyaaray dharm ke liye).> > > > Thanks again for Good News!> > > > Now i am happy and can sleep well.> > > > Regs,> > Prashant Pandey> > > > Indian_Astrology_ Group_Daily_ Digest@grou ps.com, Prashant <praspandey@ > wrote:> > >> > > > > > Dear Sunil Nairji,> > > As you suggest?I stop here, since you are irritated unnecessarily without searching for the truth.But let me remind you that I am not in favoour of pure sayan system as you understand.? I want to protect and presearve?the nirayan system in a reseasonble way.The reason?I want to do this?is because sayan is trying to overcome our nirayan

culture..I recently heard that in Tamil nadu 30 temples have already taken the sayan system for the celebration of their festivals.This is what worries me.Well if you want them to increase and increase, it is upto you.You may please check from Robert wilkinson of the WAves forum, if it is true or not.Also know that Mr.Kaul has?said both sayan and nirayan Niradhar.Any way, at present I am in no mood to continue with this subject here either. Thanking you,?I say goodbye,> > > ?sincerely yours,> > > Hari Malla.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > sreedhar.nambiar <sreedhar.nambiar@ >> > > vedic astrology> > > Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:48:49 PM> > > [vedic astrology] Fwd: Re: Krittikadi> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "sunil nair"> > > <astro_tellerkerala wrote:> > > > > > dear hari malla ji and sreenadh ji> > > > > > malla ji says shri kaul ji is ready to change his attitude or may b> > > malla ji can make it happen ,kaul jis confessions and conversion are> > > always welcome> > > > > > But the problem wont end there> > > > > > First of all he shud decide/agree what is Hindu astrological> > > -astronomical concept and he shud discard his support for sayana western> > > zodiacs and praising of their contributions .His calendrical concepts> > > are based on a moving vishuva bindu ,so the rasi belt ( the path ) moves> > > with the

changes in vishuva bindu which is western concept not indian> > > jyothishchakra ( hindu /baudha /jaina /charvaka etc ) .indian concept> > > is based on nakshtra and fixed point of meshadi and aswinadi aramba> > > chart> > > > > > ,if malla ji thinks it is varahamihira strted it i think he is wrong> > > ,pls refer parasara hora ,chapter 3 shloka numbrs 3 to 7 ,nakshtrani> > > grhanam ----- to meshadi namaka rasaya syu part .> > > > > > so for us rasi chakra is the path for grahas and nakshtras and other> > > points required for a jyothichakra .And it has to b fixed one .And for> > > us rasi and bhava is imp .lagna and Houses decide every thing and> > > ownerships /shodasa vargas and all other mathematical points like ucha> > > ,neecha and even gulika/mrityu sputa etc all r based on a

fixed rasi> > > chart .where as if we can use kaul's version then path is moving and> > > grahas moving and nakshtras moving tho mathematicaly graha position ( i> > > mean stithi ) point is same in both concepts which has diffrnt> > > parameters ,so logicaly mathematicaly both may b correct apparently but> > > cannot compromise because acccording his concept or supporting> > > arguemnts will take us to think that the road and vehicles both r moving> > > ( zodiac is moving back and grahas are moving forward ) .So when some> > > one is travelling we hav to say delhi has come to him than he reached to> > > delhi by road ,still the question of timing such purticular event in> > > advance how it is possible when both r moving ??why we need to> > > complicate every thing ??> > > > > > so i

hope malla ji may revise his views .> > > > > > also according to vedic concept the vishnu nabhi is important in> > > thinking abt creation of universe and here the moola nakshtra ( as it is> > > base or root ) and jyeshta ( eldest one ) is also has to b considered as> > > based on it all nakshtra concept is based than some one interpret some> > > vedic mantras as kritikati naksktras in some time of vedic periods is> > > the strting point ,it has diffrnt meaning may b ,and vishuva bindu> > > cannot b a strting point when thinking abt creation of universe as it is> > > the basis of rai chakra ( rahu -sikhi chakra )> > > > > > so many things accepted as vedic will b diffrnt frm kaulian argumnts> > > and i dont think ther is any chance of reconciling both arguemnts .> > > > > >

so he has only 2 choice .either discard his arguemnts or go ahed> > > without any use except name calling and a chance to call astrologers as> > > frauds in the name of a impractical calender ,like wat he was doing for> > > almost quarter century .> > > > > > let us forget abt he abused ancient rishies / acharyas and dharma gurus> > > and sankaracharyas .Also haunting any one who is interested in astrology> > > by gate crashing technics and guerrilla technics .> > > > > > rgrds sunil nair .> > > > > > Om shreem mahalaxmai namah .> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Hari Malla ji,> > > > //> Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one

thing which> > > > most of us lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.//> > > > Sorry.. I think this itself is the very thing he lacks! He is NOT> > > > devoted to the purpose of calendar reform, but just to the his> > > roadside> > > > rowdy bad mouth attitude against astrologers and astrology alone. If> > > > ever he been dedicated to the subject of Vedic calender reform even> > > for> > > > at least 3 months or so he would have prepared the the skeleton frame> > > > work of the same, and also might have written good descriptive article> > > > about its components, organization, co-relation, purpose etc. He is> > > yet> > > > to implement even these tasks, which a knowledeable individual who may> > > > dedicate 3 months to this subject may

do. This not only prove that he> > > is> > > > incapable, but also that he got NO DEVOTION to the purpose of vedic> > > > calender reform. Mark it.> > > > // I have requested him .... Hopefully he may agree....... I think it> > > > may be worthwhile to talk and negotiate.//> > > > Hopes are always good. Whether it be Sunil Nair ji, Sunil> > > > Bhattacharjya ji or Me, we all once had a respect for this man, which> > > we> > > > all lost in due course during our repeated interactions with that foul> > > > mouth, without constructive attitude and respect for the contributions> > > > of our ancistors. You can have your turn, and wish you all the best in> > > > your sincere efforts. > > > > //If he comes to term with somethng which is commonly acceptable

why> > > not> > > > go along with him?//> > > > Yes, certainly if he wish he can join us and come along with. Or if> > > > you wish you can join him and go along with. But the point is the> > > > purpose of evey stream, school of knowledge and individuals differ and> > > > the group is just a meeting place. The true contributions are always> > > > done by individuals and is individualistic. This being so - neither I> > > > need the help of Kaul nor Kaul need the help of me. The same could be> > > > true about the contibution of anyone with in this group or outside.> > > > //After all we must divide our work.//> > > > Have your ever tried it (especially related astrological research)?> > > > And what was the result? What are the lessons you learned from that>

> > > experience? We all would be eager to know. If you have ever tried> > > > the same, you would sure be able to answer those questions. But if you> > > > haven't ever tried the same - then your advice does not hold any> > > water.> > > > Any way I am in support of that statement, but at times when it> > > comes> > > > to astrological research, I don't find anyone to divide my work with!> > > > > > > May be I may change this opinion as I see more sincere at the same> > > time> > > > knowledgeable individuals.> > > > Love and regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla> > > > harimalla@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear

Sreenadhji,> > > > > Thank you for the frank reply.He does seem to have one thing which> > > > most of us lack.This is devotion to his purpose of calender reform.> > > > After all we must divide our work.If he comes to term with somethng> > > > which is commonly acceptable why not go along with him?> > > > > I feel we can work something which harmonises all, which keeps up> > > our> > > > nirayan tradition and also correct the times of festivals.The rashis> > > > must continue, as much of our religious literature and the present> > > > jyotish system is based and has been written using them. I have> > > > requested him not try to get rid of the rashis and also tolerate the> > > > nirayan system in a coordinated fashion with the sayan system.> > > > >

Hopefully he may agree.I have not been in contact with him for some> > > > time.Shree Sunil Bahatacharyaji, thinks he may not agree overnight.But> > > I> > > > think it may be worthwhile to talk and negotiate.thank you..> > > > > Sincerely yours,> > > > > Hari Malla> > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >