Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, One has to remember that for this very reason the Vedanga Jyotisha gives the five year Yuga cycle, where 5 Solar years = 62 Lunations. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: Hari Malla <harimalla Re: Re: madhu ,madhav is solar Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 3:58 AM Dear Souvik Duttaji, You are quite right.The sankrantis are where the rashis meet and 180 degrees to the sankranits, we have the corresponding full moons.But it so happens that the full moons do not remain fixed at the sankrantis, but fluctuate 15 days before and after the sankrantis due to the one month of adhimas.for example, Mesh sankranti is the middle point of Chaitra fullmoon.This means 180 degrees from the mesh sankranti, we have the mid point of chitraa nakshyatra too.The full moon of chaitra fluctuates between 16th of saura chaitra to 15th of saura vaisakh approximately. Or Mesh sankranti is the middle or mean position of vaisakh full moon. If not disturbed this will be true even 5000AD, if not disturbed.This is what I believe in, unless proved otherwise.Thank you. Regards, Hari Malla Souvik Dutta explore_vulcan@ ancient_indian_ astrology Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:48:36 AM [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar Dear Hari Malla-ji, I am also very thankful to you for agreeing to my request. " Originally,Chaitra, Baisakh are lunar months with the full moons being attached with Chitraa nakshyatra, Visakha nakshyatras etc.Even today technically they are lunar months. " Excellent! For a moon to be full it has to oppose the Sun with a 180 degree between them. This should be true in 5000 BCE as it would be in 5000 CE (or in other words irrespective of time) as long as the Sun and Moon and Earth are still present! Please let me know if you agree with this. Thanks Souvik ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..> wrote: > > Dear Souvik Duttaji, > I am very happy to get your careful response.This is a very good spirit indeed.I will tell you whatever I know in earnestness. The step by step method is the best. > Originally,Chaitra, Baisakh are lunar months with the full moons being attached with Chitraa nakshyatra, Visakha nakshyatras etc.Even today technically they are lunar months.But since the advent of the rashis and the lunar months are now a days controlled by the rashis,It is also customary nowdays to call the solar rashi months of Mesh,Vrish also as Chaitra, Baisakh etc.Although technically not correct it is in normal use to call them saura Chaitra, saura Baishakh etc.The addition of the word 'saura' makes it solar wihout doubt. > Thank you, > Regards' > Hari Malla > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Souvik Dutta <explore_vulcan@ ...> > ancient_indian_ astrology > Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:05:36 AM > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla-ji, > > Lets take it step by step, shall we? Trust me when I say I am not closed minded, but like all humans I have biases and have the guts to accept it. However, if you can show me something with logic I will accept it. I have done it in the past. Inder Vohra (blessed man, hope he is doing good) introduced me to KP. I had my biases but I learned it and accepted its merit. I don't know anyone personally here and neither does anyone know me (of course apart from a few I am friends with), so no personal disagreement with you. > > Now, you say that madhu madhav are not solar months. > > I want to know if you consider Chaitra, Magha, Phalgun as solar months. If no, then please let us know what do you consider them as. > > Lets progress step by step and logically. > > Thanks > > Souvik > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > Dear Sunilji and Souvikji, > > The truth must be accepted with careful analysis.It is not just a matter of agriculture and spiritual festivals.It is also natural date keeping.The solar year is natural because of seasons, the longest day and shortest day.But coming to the months and date keeping, the lunar month is natural and the visual phases of the moon is the nature's date keeper.The solar months are artificially made later on for convenience only and are not natural.Thus when you say madhu madhav is solar months,you are defying all records of history, scriptures,and common sense.Thank you, > > Yours, > > Hari Malla > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Dear Hari Malla-ji, Here is where we should pay a little more time. What you have mentioned below although apparantly may appear simple but is the root of bifurcation of ideas which later gives rise to so alien a concept that once sprung from the same parent becomes alienated in its tributeries. So, please excuse me for spending some more time here. What do consider a day when you say moon stays in a nakshtra a day? Do you consider 24 hours from entry from one nakshatra to another? In that case you would consider only the rotation of the Earth around its axis. Or Do you consider 24 hours from the rise of the Sun as a day in which you bring in the Earth and the Sun as a day. I think we should clear this here. Regards Souvik , Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: > > Dear Souvk Duttaji, > You are quite right.the nakshyatras traverse one nakshyatra every day.It traverses all the 27 nakshyatras in 27 days in completing the circle of nakshyatras.This circle is known as the nakshyatriya month of 27 days.This is the sidereal lunar month.This is a shorter lunar month with respect to the star world.The lunar month is shorter with respect to the star(sidereal) and longer with respect to the sun(synodic lunar month) by about 2 days.Goodbye. > Regards, > Hari Malla > > > > > ________________________________ > Souvik Dutta <explore_vulcan > > Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:02:19 PM > Re: madhu ,madhav is solar > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla-ji, > Thank you for responding. > > Again, my understanding is limited so at a time I can just concenrate on only one aspect. So, please bear with me. > > Lets leave sankranti for now. Lets just concentrate on the months, even better let us concentrate on only 1 month, Chaitra, ok? I promise to you, I will come to sankranti too. Please just give me some time. > > I am glad we are in agreement that for full moon to happen Sun and Moon should be 180 Degree apart. > > Now, please do let me know if you agree that Moon traverses 1 nakshtra a day. > > Please do let me know. > > Again, step by step for my own benefit. Please bear with me. > Regards, > Souvik > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote: > > > > Dear Souvik Duttaji, > > You are quite right.The sankrantis are where the rashis meet and 180 degrees to the sankranits, we have the corresponding full moons.But it so happens that the full moons do not remain fixed at the sankrantis, but fluctuate 15 days before and after the sankrantis due to the one month of adhimas..for example, Mesh sankranti is the middle point of Chaitra fullmoon.This means 180 degrees from the mesh sankranti, we have the mid point of chitraa nakshyatra too.The full moon of chaitra fluctuates between 16th of saura chaitra to 15th of saura vaisakh approximately. Or Mesh sankranti is the middle or mean position of vaisakh full moon. > > If not disturbed this will be true even 5000AD, if not disturbed.This is what I believe in, unless proved otherwise.Thank you. > > Regards, > > Hari Malla > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > Souvik Dutta explore_vulcan@ ... > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:48:36 AM > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla-ji, > > I am also very thankful to you for agreeing to my request. > > " > > Originally,Chaitra, Baisakh are lunar months with the full moons being attached with Chitraa nakshyatra, Visakha nakshyatras etc.Even today technically they are lunar months. > > " > > Excellent! For a moon to be full it has to oppose the Sun with a 180 degree between them. This should be true in 5000 BCE as it would be in 5000 CE (or in other words irrespective of time) as long as the Sun and Moon and Earth are still present! > > Please let me know if you agree with this. > > Thanks > > Souvik > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Souvik Duttaji, > > > I am very happy to get your careful response.This is a very good spirit indeed.I will tell you whatever I know in earnestness. The step by step method is the best. > > > Originally,Chaitra, Baisakh are lunar months with the full moons being attached with Chitraa nakshyatra, Visakha nakshyatras etc.Even today technically they are lunar months.But since the advent of the rashis and the lunar months are now a days controlled by the rashis,It is also customary nowdays to call the solar rashi months of Mesh,Vrish also as Chaitra, Baisakh etc.Although technically not correct it is in normal use to call them saura Chaitra, saura Baishakh etc.The addition of the word 'saura' makes it solar wihout doubt. > > > Thank you, > > > Regards' > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > Souvik Dutta <explore_vulcan@ ...> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:05:36 AM > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla-ji, > > > > > > Lets take it step by step, shall we? Trust me when I say I am not closed minded, but like all humans I have biases and have the guts to accept it. However, if you can show me something with logic I will accept it. I have done it in the past. Inder Vohra (blessed man, hope he is doing good) introduced me to KP. I had my biases but I learned it and accepted its merit. I don't know anyone personally here and neither does anyone know me (of course apart from a few I am friends with), so no personal disagreement with you. > > > > > > Now, you say that madhu madhav are not solar months. > > > > > > I want to know if you consider Chaitra, Magha, Phalgun as solar months. If no, then please let us know what do you consider them as. > > > > > > Lets progress step by step and logically. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Souvik > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sunilji and Souvikji, > > > > The truth must be accepted with careful analysis.It is not just a matter of agriculture and spiritual festivals.It is also natural date keeping.The solar year is natural because of seasons, the longest day and shortest day.But coming to the months and date keeping, the lunar month is natural and the visual phases of the moon is the nature's date keeper.The solar months are artificially made later on for convenience only and are not natural.Thus when you say madhu madhav is solar months,you are defying all records of history, scriptures,and common sense.Thank you, > > > > Yours, > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Dear Duttaji, I think the bifuraction of the day is already there.In taking the nakshaytraas they do not seem to take one day from the sunrise.It also does not seem to be even 24 hours.It is more or less a day, they already have a complicated system for fixing this 'day'.This you can check from the nakshyatras column of the panchangas.They give in ghadi pala to mark the ending of each nakshyatras.But the main concept seems to be to consider 13.2 degrees for each nakshyatra rather than the equal time periods for each nakshyattra.The timing is various and fluctuates hours for the different nakshyatras from the simple 24 hour day. Thus we can say it averages to 24 hours' day.The concept of the total cycle or month as 27.3 days is important to understand for the purpose of our dicusssion.But this bifuraction is Ok since it is treated as a separate column or identity in our panchangas. We need not ache our head too much with details, so that we do not miss our main purpose for acertaining wether madhu madhav is solar or lunar.Or asccertaining the main factors we have to take for the appropriate reformation of our cultural calender, which in my view is the main purpose in the long run. Thank you, sincerely yours, Hari Malla Souvik Dutta <explore_vulcan Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:45:16 AM Re: madhu ,madhav is solar Dear Hari Malla-ji,Here is where we should pay a little more time.What you have mentioned below although apparantly may appear simple but is the root of bifurcation of ideas which later gives rise to so alien a concept that once sprung from the same parent becomes alienated in its tributeries. So, please excuse me for spending some more time here.What do consider a day when you say moon stays in a nakshtra a day? Do you consider 24 hours from entry from one nakshatra to another? In that case you would consider only the rotation of the Earth around its axis. Or Do you consider 24 hours from the rise of the Sun as a day in which you bring in the Earth and the Sun as a day.I think we should clear this here.RegardsSouvikancient_indian_ astrology@ . com, Hari Malla <harimalla@. ..> wrote:>> Dear Souvk Duttaji,> You are quite right.the nakshyatras traverse one nakshyatra every day.It traverses all the 27 nakshyatras in 27 days in completing the circle of nakshyatras. This circle is known as the nakshyatriya month of 27 days.This is the sidereal lunar month.This is a shorter lunar month with respect to the star world.The lunar month is shorter with respect to the star(sidereal) and longer with respect to the sun(synodic lunar month) by about 2 days.Goodbye.> Regards,> Hari Malla> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> Souvik Dutta <explore_vulcan@ ...>> ancient_indian_ astrology> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:02:19 PM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar> > > > > > Dear Hari Malla-ji,> Thank you for responding.> > Again, my understanding is limited so at a time I can just concenrate on only one aspect. So, please bear with me.> > Lets leave sankranti for now. Lets just concentrate on the months, even better let us concentrate on only 1 month, Chaitra, ok? I promise to you, I will come to sankranti too. Please just give me some time.> > I am glad we are in agreement that for full moon to happen Sun and Moon should be 180 Degree apart.> > Now, please do let me know if you agree that Moon traverses 1 nakshtra a day.> > Please do let me know.> > Again, step by step for my own benefit. Please bear with me.> Regards,> Souvik> > --- In ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Souvik Duttaji,> > You are quite right.The sankrantis are where the rashis meet and 180 degrees to the sankranits, we have the corresponding full moons.But it so happens that the full moons do not remain fixed at the sankrantis, but fluctuate 15 days before and after the sankrantis due to the one month of adhimas..for example, Mesh sankranti is the middle point of Chaitra fullmoon.This means 180 degrees from the mesh sankranti, we have the mid point of chitraa nakshyatra too.The full moon of chaitra fluctuates between 16th of saura chaitra to 15th of saura vaisakh approximately. Or Mesh sankranti is the middle or mean position of vaisakh full moon.> > If not disturbed this will be true even 5000AD, if not disturbed.This is what I believe in, unless proved otherwise.Thank you.> > Regards,> > Hari Malla> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > > Souvik Dutta explore_vulcan@ ...> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:48:36 AM> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar> > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla-ji,> > I am also very thankful to you for agreeing to my request. > > "> > Originally,Chaitra, Baisakh are lunar months with the full moons being attached with Chitraa nakshyatra, Visakha nakshyatras etc.Even today technically they are lunar months.> > "> > Excellent! For a moon to be full it has to oppose the Sun with a 180 degree between them. This should be true in 5000 BCE as it would be in 5000 CE (or in other words irrespective of time) as long as the Sun and Moon and Earth are still present! > > Please let me know if you agree with this. > > Thanks> > Souvik> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Souvik Duttaji,> > > I am very happy to get your careful response.This is a very good spirit indeed.I will tell you whatever I know in earnestness. The step by step method is the best.> > > Originally,Chaitra, Baisakh are lunar months with the full moons being attached with Chitraa nakshyatra, Visakha nakshyatras etc.Even today technically they are lunar months.But since the advent of the rashis and the lunar months are now a days controlled by the rashis,It is also customary nowdays to call the solar rashi months of Mesh,Vrish also as Chaitra, Baisakh etc.Although technically not correct it is in normal use to call them saura Chaitra, saura Baishakh etc.The addition of the word 'saura' makes it solar wihout doubt.> > > Thank you,> > > Regards'> > > Hari Malla> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __> > > Souvik Dutta <explore_vulcan@ ...>> > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > > Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:05:36 AM> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Hari Malla-ji,> > > > > > Lets take it step by step, shall we? Trust me when I say I am not closed minded, but like all humans I have biases and have the guts to accept it. However, if you can show me something with logic I will accept it. I have done it in the past. Inder Vohra (blessed man, hope he is doing good) introduced me to KP. I had my biases but I learned it and accepted its merit. I don't know anyone personally here and neither does anyone know me (of course apart from a few I am friends with), so no personal disagreement with you.> > > > > > Now, you say that madhu madhav are not solar months.> > > > > > I want to know if you consider Chaitra, Magha, Phalgun as solar months. If no, then please let us know what do you consider them as.> > > > > > Lets progress step by step and logically.> > > > > > Thanks> > > > > > Souvik> > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Sunilji and Souvikji,> > > > The truth must be accepted with careful analysis.It is not just a matter of agriculture and spiritual festivals.It is also natural date keeping.The solar year is natural because of seasons, the longest day and shortest day.But coming to the months and date keeping, the lunar month is natural and the visual phases of the moon is the nature's date keeper.The solar months are artificially made later on for convenience only and are not natural.Thus when you say madhu madhav is solar months,you are defying all records of history, scriptures,and common sense.Thank you,> > > > Yours,> > > > Hari Malla> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, Let us hope that while continuing this study we can bring out new information and possibilities, which are in tune with logic and oldest evidence available. Love and regards,Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sreenadhji,> > Thank you for the informative mail. In fact in the absence of any direct statement in the shastras one could interpret as one liked. I learnt earlier that as Tapa generates heat the two month period starting from the Winter Solstice is ideal for Tapa and hence these two months were called tapa and Tapasya. Similarly I learnt that as honey bee is active in collecting honey (madhu) from the flowers in the spring season the two months during the period of the spring season were called Madhu and Madhava. Thank you again for showing the straight possibilities and the etymological approach to the nomenclature of the ritu-based months.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, I think you are right.During the vedanga jyotish days there were no rashis thus the adhimas were held at solstices only, one at asadh and other at poush..Thus the justifiaction of the five year period of 2.5 years each, made one yuga.But after the introduction of the rahsi, the solar months came into being and they started to control the lunar months with the help of the sankrantis of the solar months. This is important to understand for the reason that during the vedic time the months were lunar. Thus madhu madhav are lunar months and not solar. The solar months came only after the introdcution of the rashis.thank you , Regards Hari Malla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, Another unique and sincere idea. This is from Prabhakar Venkatesh Holay. Chandra Hari is in support of it, and me too feels that it is logical, more intuitive and acceptable. The idea is: "It is not necessary that all the valsaras in Panchavarsheeya Yuga system should contain 5 years each itself. After clear study, by providing clear arguments and information Holay has proves that Panchavarsheeya system is 19 year cycle itself. That is - 1st Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 3 years. 2nd Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 3 years. 3nd Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 5 years. 4th Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 3 years. 5th Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 5 years. This gives a total of 19 years. If it is so then the system is termed Pancha varsheeya system? This is because the 1st year is always termed Samvatsara, 2nd year Parivatsara, 3rd year Ilavatsara, 4th year Anuvatsara, 5th year idavatsara. The total naming is related to 5 unique names and that is why the system is termed Panchavarsheeya yuga system. To papers that speaks about the same is uploaded in the files section of the group at: 1) Ancient Indian Astronomy%20and%20Science/19%20Year%20Yuga%20of%20Rk%20Jyotisha.pdf 2) Ancient%20Indian%20Astronomy%20and%20Science/2000c4e2_227_Abhayankar.pdfLove and regards,Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Harimallaji,> > One has to remember that for this very reason the Vedanga Jyotisha gives the five year Yuga cycle, where 5 Solar years = 62 Lunations.> > Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 dear group This reminds me the following saying in malayalam --i know what is anjanam ( a black paste made out of burning many herbs which is applied on a wick( made of out of cotton cloth ) diped in oil and collecting the fumes on a metalic plate which givs a black condensed substance ( ladies use it for applying in eyes /also a good ayurvedic medicine for eye disceases) ,also there is one stone too with similar Name --i dont know its english ) it is white in color like haldi ( turmeric ) . do we allow this kaulian agendas here ?? who dont know importance of sun in kala vidhana sastram called calender .They r as if trying to show they can walk with one leg on greek crutches or chaldean crutches .( hidden aim is to say vedic rishies were ignorent than they use their intelligence and say how it may b happened ,it is as if all hindus are puppets who dance to the tune of some puppeteers and has no real brain too let them make a calender and proov than quoting and misquoting and spoiling the precious time of ours /others in grp even if we all r all wrong or not knowledgeble it wont proov any thing ,unless they cud tell logicaly and scientificaly all abt calculation and its basis ( questions already reached to kaul 1000 times and he knows it ) why the rishies took 5 yrs ( solar months pegged in or lunar months or seasons ( as kaulians calls it ) pegged in solar ingresss??if i can use same kaulian arguemnts and launguage --sure we can see here next twist and again waisting of our time --it will b very nice if kaul can teach us vedanga jyothisha ( which kaul says predictiv gimmiks ) unlike the missionary( his favrite) interpretation using his vast knowledge in all sastras and sanskrit and dharma what ever u name it under the sun and show vedic rishies never saw sun with their naked eyes too ) rgrds sunil nair only request is dont swallow wat they vomitted when making the calender means stick with the arguemnts they placed against vedic astrologers , Hari Malla <harimalla wrote:>> Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji,> I think you are right.During the vedanga jyotish days there were no rashis thus the adhimas were held at solstices only, one at asadh and other at poush.Thus the justifiaction of the five year period of 2.5 years each, made one yuga.But after the introduction of the rahsi, the solar months came into being and they started to control the lunar months with the help of the sankrantis of the solar months.> This is important to understand for the reason that during the vedic time the months were lunar. Thus madhu madhav are lunar months and not solar. The solar months came only after the introdcution of the rashis.thank you ,> Regards> Hari Malla> > > > > ________________________________> Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya > Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:40:11 AM> Re: madhu ,madhav is solar> > > > > > Dear Harimallaji,> > One has to remember that for this very reason the Vedanga Jyotisha gives the five year Yuga cycle, where 5 Solar years = 62 Lunations.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Hari Malla harimalla@rocketmai l.com> wrote:> > Hari Malla harimalla@rocketmai l.com>> Re: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar> ancient_indian_ astrology> Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 3:58 AM> > Dear Souvik Duttaji,> You are quite right.The sankrantis are where the rashis meet and 180 degrees to the sankranits, we have the corresponding full moons.But it so happens that the full moons do not remain fixed at the sankrantis, but fluctuate 15 days before and after the sankrantis due to the one month of adhimas.for example, Mesh sankranti is the middle point of Chaitra fullmoon.This means 180 degrees from the mesh sankranti, we have the mid point of chitraa nakshyatra too.The full moon of chaitra fluctuates between 16th of saura chaitra to 15th of saura vaisakh approximately. Or Mesh sankranti is the middle or mean position of vaisakh full moon.> If not disturbed this will be true even 5000AD, if not disturbed.This is what I believe in, unless proved otherwise.Thank you.> Regards,> Hari Malla> > Souvik Dutta explore_vulcan@ > > ancient_indian_ astrology> Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:48:36 AM> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar> > Dear Hari Malla-ji,> I am also very thankful to you for agreeing to my request.> "> Originally,Chaitra, Baisakh are lunar months with the full moons being attached with Chitraa nakshyatra, Visakha nakshyatras etc.Even today technically they are lunar months.> "> Excellent! For a moon to be full it has to oppose the Sun with a 180 degree between them. This should be true in 5000 BCE as it would be in 5000 CE (or in other words irrespective of time) as long as the Sun and Moon and Earth are still present!> Please let me know if you agree with this.> Thanks> Souvik> > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla harimalla@ ..> wrote:> >> > Dear Souvik Duttaji,> > I am very happy to get your careful response.This is a very good spirit indeed.I will tell you whatever I know in earnestness. The step by step method is the best.> > Originally,Chaitra, Baisakh are lunar months with the full moons being attached with Chitraa nakshyatra, Visakha nakshyatras etc.Even today technically they are lunar months.But since the advent of the rashis and the lunar months are now a days controlled by the rashis,It is also customary nowdays to call the solar rashi months of Mesh,Vrish also as Chaitra, Baisakh etc.Although technically not correct it is in normal use to call them saura Chaitra, saura Baishakh etc.The addition of the word 'saura' makes it solar wihout doubt.> > Thank you,> > Regards'> > Hari Malla> >> >> >> >> > ____________ _________ _________ __> > Souvik Dutta <explore_vulcan@ ...>> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:05:36 AM> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: madhu ,madhav is solar> >> >> >> >> >> > Dear Hari Malla-ji,> >> > Lets take it step by step, shall we? Trust me when I say I am not closed minded, but like all humans I have biases and have the guts to accept it. However, if you can show me something with logic I will accept it. I have done it in the past. Inder Vohra (blessed man, hope he is doing good) introduced me to KP. I had my biases but I learned it and accepted its merit. I don't know anyone personally here and neither does anyone know me (of course apart from a few I am friends with), so no personal disagreement with you.> >> > Now, you say that madhu madhav are not solar months.> >> > I want to know if you consider Chaitra, Magha, Phalgun as solar months. If no, then please let us know what do you consider them as.> >> > Lets progress step by step and logically.> >> > Thanks> >> > Souvik> > ancient_indian_ astrology, Hari Malla <harimalla@ ..> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sunilji and Souvikji,> > > The truth must be accepted with careful analysis.It is not just a matter of agriculture and spiritual festivals.It is also natural date keeping.The solar year is natural because of seasons, the longest day and shortest day.But coming to the months and date keeping, the lunar month is natural and the visual phases of the moon is the nature's date keeper.The solar months are artificially made later on for convenience only and are not natural.Thus when you say madhu madhav is solar months,you are defying all records of history, scriptures,and common sense.Thank you,> > > Yours,> > > Hari Malla> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 VAASUDEVA, I HAVE A DOUBT ABOUT VIMSOTTARI DASA SYSTEM IS THERE ANY ASTRONOMICAL BASE FOR DASA SYSTEM AND DASA YEARS AND DASA SYSTEM ORDER LIKE RAVI,CHANDRA, KUJA, RAHU, GURU, LIKE THAT PLEASE CLARIFY MU DOUBT VENUMADHAV --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: Hari Malla <harimalla Re:madhu ,madhav is solar Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 10:14 PM Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, I think you are right.During the vedanga jyotish days there were no rashis thus the adhimas were held at solstices only, one at asadh and other at poush..Thus the justifiaction of the five year period of 2.5 years each, made one yuga.But after the introduction of the rahsi, the solar months came into being and they started to control the lunar months with the help of the sankrantis of the solar months. This is important to understand for the reason that during the vedic time the months were lunar. Thus madhu madhav are lunar months and not solar. The solar months came only after the introdcution of the rashis.thank you , Regards Hari Malla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, Here you are talking like Kaulji. Rashis were mentioned in the Veda. They are also mentioned in Bhagavata Purana, which was narrated to Parikshita, the grandson of Arjuna, in the 31st century BCE, whereas the Vedanga Jyotisha was composed by the disciples of Lagadhacharya in 2400 BCE. Colebrooke however gives a date of 1400 BCE to Vedanga Jyotisha. Then how can you say that rRshis were not there in the times of Vedanga Jyotisha. The Rashis do not find a place in the Vedanga Jyotisha for the simple reason that the rashis are mainly for Astrology. The seasonal months of Madhu and Madhava etc. are Sayana Solar months and even Kaulji says so. In this respect now even Kaulji is not with you. Suryasiddhanta says about the Nirayana Solar months which depends on Sun's transit through a Rashi (Rashis are based on the 12 divisions of the Ecliptic) You have to have correct ideas on the above and then only we can discuss the Solilunar calendar. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: Hari Malla <harimalla Re:madhu ,madhav is solar Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 10:14 PM Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, I think you are right.During the vedanga jyotish days there were no rashis thus the adhimas were held at solstices only, one at asadh and other at poush..Thus the justifiaction of the five year period of 2.5 years each, made one yuga.But after the introduction of the rahsi, the solar months came into being and they started to control the lunar months with the help of the sankrantis of the solar months. This is important to understand for the reason that during the vedic time the months were lunar. Thus madhu madhav are lunar months and not solar. The solar months came only after the introdcution of the rashis.thank you , Regards Hari Malla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, I do not know the accepted history of calenders,except from a few books.One of the books i have read is Shankar B. Dixit. He also seems to be famous in the history of calenders and jyotish.Anyway coming to our point,Let us start from what we both know and agree.since we both know that rashicahkra was not used to control the adhimas as it is now done, we may say that even if the rashis were there, it was not used to control our lunar calender.Also we know even from the description of Bhisma that the calender that was used then was vedanga jyotish calendar.From the description we also know that it was not a calender with solar months.Then where is the proof that there was any solar calender at all? We also know that madhu madhav months were used in the vedanga jyotish too.Thus the months of madhu, madhav used in vedanga jyotish being lunar months, how can we assert like Sunil nair, that madhu madhav are solar months. What is more important,in his article on introduction of vedic calender he has even quoted some vedic quotation that months come from the moon.Is that not sufficient to give us the idea that in the vedic days months were not solar, but only lunar. Many people are mislead by the concept that seasons are only solar.I find this opinion mainly among the jyotishis.Perhaps in Surya sidhanta, it may have mentioned about the solar seasons only.I know that is not our original vedic culture, because the dharma shastras specifically say so.Dharma Sindhu says that Lunar dates and seasons are more important and not the solar dates and seasons.Thus the ignorance of the luanr seasons seems to be the main problem.Perhaps Mr. Sunil Nair is also having such a opinion out of prejudice. It is an accepted fact that surya sidhanta is of the sidhanta period and not of the vedanga jyotish period.I do not assert like Mr. Kaul wether rashi ws indigenous or imported, but I can say from the history I have read that in calender the rashis had a later entry.The fact that now a days the rashis control the adhimas which was not the case with vedanga jyotish, is itself a proof of this fact. Thanking you,I remain, sincerly yours, Hari malla Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 12:57:14 PM Re:madhu ,madhav is solar Dear Harimallaji, Here you are talking like Kaulji. Rashis were mentioned in the Veda. They are also mentioned in Bhagavata Purana, which was narrated to Parikshita, the grandson of Arjuna, in the 31st century BCE, whereas the Vedanga Jyotisha was composed by the disciples of Lagadhacharya in 2400 BCE. Colebrooke however gives a date of 1400 BCE to Vedanga Jyotisha. Then how can you say that rRshis were not there in the times of Vedanga Jyotisha. The Rashis do not find a place in the Vedanga Jyotisha for the simple reason that the rashis are mainly for Astrology. The seasonal months of Madhu and Madhava etc. are Sayana Solar months and even Kaulji says so. In this respect now even Kaulji is not with you. Suryasiddhanta says about the Nirayana Solar months which depends on Sun's transit through a Rashi (Rashis are based on the 12 divisions of the Ecliptic) You have to have correct ideas on the above and then only we can discuss the Solilunar calendar. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@rocketmai l.com> wrote:Hari Malla <harimalla@rocketmai l.com>[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:madhu ,madhav is solarancient_indian_ astrologyTuesday, April 21, 2009, 10:14 PMDear Sunil Bhattacharyaji,I think you are right.During the vedanga jyotish days there were no rashis thus the adhimas were held at solstices only, one at asadh and other at poush..Thus the justifiaction of the five year period of 2.5 years each, made one yuga.But after the introduction of the rahsi, the solar months came into being and they started to control the lunar months with the help of the sankrantis of the solar months.This is important to understand for the reason that during the vedic time the months were lunar. Thus madhu madhav are lunar months and not solar. The solar months came only after the introdcution of the rashis.thank you ,RegardsHari Malla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Dear Harimallaji, 1) You mentioned as follows: Quote We also know that madhu madhav months were used in the vedanga jyotish too. Unquote Which verse from Vedanga Jyotish are you referring to? 2) The Lunar month (say Magha) will not have any meaning unless it is qualified by a Solar month (say Magha in this case), for the simple reason that within a year the Moon visits the Magha nakshatra 12 times. You have referred to Bhishma. In Mahabharata Bhishma mentioned the month of Magha but not any of the tropical / seasonal months such as Madhu and Madhava. The fact that the seasonal months are there in the ancient texts does not necessarily mean that they are must for the calendar. Thus you can see that the Rashi-based Nirayana Solar months will control the Lunar months. Our panchangas are accommodating the 62 lunations within the 60 Solar months of the 5-year yuga period. This I understand is the basic premise for the Hindu calendar. But I am open to correction by the bigger experts like Sunil Nairji, Sreenadhji, Gopal Goelji and others of the AIA group and by the scholars of the other groups as well as by those from outside the groups. When there so many big experts are around in the AIA group and other groups as well as outside the groups, any calendar reform will have to have the participation from all of them. Only a megalomaniac like AKK will attempt to demolish all the shastras and the traditions, singlehandedly through his misinterpretations. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Wed, 4/22/09, Hari Malla <harimalla wrote: Hari Malla <harimalla Re: Re:madhu ,madhav is solar Wednesday, April 22, 2009, 3:04 AM Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, I do not know the accepted history of calenders,except from a few books.One of the books i have read is Shankar B. Dixit. He also seems to be famous in the history of calenders and jyotish.Anyway coming to our point,Let us start from what we both know and agree.since we both know that rashicahkra was not used to control the adhimas as it is now done, we may say that even if the rashis were there, it was not used to control our lunar calender.Also we know even from the description of Bhisma that the calender that was used then was vedanga jyotish calendar.From the description we also know that it was not a calender with solar months.Then where is the proof that there was any solar calender at all? We also know that madhu madhav months were used in the vedanga jyotish too.Thus the months of madhu, madhav used in vedanga jyotish being lunar months, how can we assert like Sunil nair, that madhu madhav are solar months. What is more important,in his article on introduction of vedic calender he has even quoted some vedic quotation that months come from the moon.Is that not sufficient to give us the idea that in the vedic days months were not solar, but only lunar. Many people are mislead by the concept that seasons are only solar.I find this opinion mainly among the jyotishis.Perhaps in Surya sidhanta, it may have mentioned about the solar seasons only.I know that is not our original vedic culture, because the dharma shastras specifically say so.Dharma Sindhu says that Lunar dates and seasons are more important and not the solar dates and seasons.Thus the ignorance of the luanr seasons seems to be the main problem.Perhaps Mr. Sunil Nair is also having such a opinion out of prejudice. It is an accepted fact that surya sidhanta is of the sidhanta period and not of the vedanga jyotish period.I do not assert like Mr. Kaul wether rashi ws indigenous or imported, but I can say from the history I have read that in calender the rashis had a later entry.The fact that now a days the rashis control the adhimas which was not the case with vedanga jyotish, is itself a proof of this fact. Thanking you,I remain, sincerly yours, Hari malla Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> ancient_indian_ astrology Wednesday, April 22, 2009 12:57:14 PM [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:madhu ,madhav is solar Dear Harimallaji, Here you are talking like Kaulji. Rashis were mentioned in the Veda. They are also mentioned in Bhagavata Purana, which was narrated to Parikshita, the grandson of Arjuna, in the 31st century BCE, whereas the Vedanga Jyotisha was composed by the disciples of Lagadhacharya in 2400 BCE. Colebrooke however gives a date of 1400 BCE to Vedanga Jyotisha. Then how can you say that rRshis were not there in the times of Vedanga Jyotisha. The Rashis do not find a place in the Vedanga Jyotisha for the simple reason that the rashis are mainly for Astrology. The seasonal months of Madhu and Madhava etc. are Sayana Solar months and even Kaulji says so. In this respect now even Kaulji is not with you. Suryasiddhanta says about the Nirayana Solar months which depends on Sun's transit through a Rashi (Rashis are based on the 12 divisions of the Ecliptic) You have to have correct ideas on the above and then only we can discuss the Solilunar calendar. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 4/21/09, Hari Malla <harimalla@rocketmai l.com> wrote: Hari Malla <harimalla@rocketmai l.com> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:madhu ,madhav is solar ancient_indian_ astrology Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 10:14 PM Dear Sunil Bhattacharyaji, I think you are right.During the vedanga jyotish days there were no rashis thus the adhimas were held at solstices only, one at asadh and other at poush..Thus the justifiaction of the five year period of 2.5 years each, made one yuga.But after the introduction of the rahsi, the solar months came into being and they started to control the lunar months with the help of the sankrantis of the solar months. This is important to understand for the reason that during the vedic time the months were lunar. Thus madhu madhav are lunar months and not solar. The solar months came only after the introdcution of the rashis.thank you , Regards Hari Malla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Dear Sreenadh-ji, I went thru' the file. Obviously, I have not understood much. Anyway, what I've understood is.., The meaning of verses regarding how to calculate is always depended upon the calculation method to be applied. The steps described in the verses will also be following that. When the original shastra was written, it is highly probable, that Cawri system of calculation was prevalent (at least with the masses for whom it was written). Dear Sreenadh-ji, you are an expert in astronomy, Sanskrit as well as you know the cawrie and other calculation methods (which other people may not be aware). Could you kindly cross-check the verses with above knowledge and tell us whether the interpretation is okay ? To put it another way, as an expert in cawrie method, would you write complex calculation in such manner in sanskrit as written here ? This exercise will ascertain which one of the inetrpretion is in line with what original author meant to convey. regards chakraborty PS.... When dealing with dubious writing, we always follow this method. Like if a procedure has been inetrpreted by an expert in that field, then it should follow some pattern. However, if the translation is done by an outsider, it it will miss the clarity and terminology and the basic logic will be missing Sreenadh [sreesog] Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:02 AM Re: madhu ,madhav is solar Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, Another unique and sincere idea. This is from Prabhakar Venkatesh Holay. Chandra Hari is in support of it, and me too feels that it is logical, more intuitive and acceptable. The idea is: " It is not necessary that all the valsaras in Panchavarsheeya Yuga system should contain 5 years each itself. After clear study, by providing clear arguments and information Holay has proves that Panchavarsheeya system is 19 year cycle itself. That is - 1st Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 3 years. 2nd Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 3 years. 3nd Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 5 years. 4th Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 3 years. 5th Pachavarsheeya sequence contains 5 years. This gives a total of 19 years. If it is so then the system is termed Pancha varsheeya system? This is because the 1st year is always termed Samvatsara, 2nd year Parivatsara, 3rd year Ilavatsara, 4th year Anuvatsara, 5th year idavatsara. The total naming is related to 5 unique names and that is why the system is termed Panchavarsheeya yuga system. To papers that speaks about the same is uploaded in the files section of the group at: 1) http://groups. <Ancient%20Indi an%20Astronomy%20and%20Science/19%20Year%20Yuga%20of%20Rk%20Jyotisha.pdf> Ancient Indian Astronomy%20and%20Science/19%20Year%20Yuga%20of%20Rk%20Jyotisha.pdf 2) http://groups. <Ancient%20Indi an%20Astronomy%20and%20Science/2000c4e2_227_Abhayankar.pdf> Ancient%20Indian%20Astronomy% 20and%20Science/2000c4e2_227_Abhayankar.pdf Love and regards, Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Harimallaji, > > One has to remember that for this very reason the Vedanga Jyotisha gives the five year Yuga cycle, where 5 Solar years = 62 Lunations. > > Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Dear Hari Malla-ji, I am still at loss to understand the following points.. 1) What is the problem if people use different calendars as per their convenience ? 2) Do you think that a single Calendar will cater to all the diverse needs of people ? And it will be very simplified too ? 3) When you do replace an existing system with a new system, the new system needs to be much better. Otherwise why would anybody take such pains to do the replacement ? I have not seen much clarity in thought in this area. 4) If you are so sure about the usage of a new calendar - why don't you publish it ? People will use it if the calendar is good. People use Gregorian Calendar because the find the need to do so. I am not sure how creative is it to post your ideas about a New calendar system in an astrological forum..... unless you want to distract us from astrological discussions. regards P L Chakraborty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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