Astrology in epic period (Edited conversation)

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Dear All, I have started a new task of posting edited AIA group conversations to AIA website. Here goes the first effort. I request all editors and publishers of AIA website (Check the list here: AIA Team ) to help me my editing further conversations and posting it in the website. I request more AIA group members to join AIA website and contribute either by own write-ups or by editing group conversations in defined format and posting it in the website. Love and regards,Sreenadh============================================

Astrology in epic periodSource: AIA Website: Astrology in epic period converstation

 

 

Last Updated on Friday, 10 April 2009 21:51

 

Written by Sreenadh OG, DK, Pandit Arjun, Kishore Patnaik

 

Friday, 10 April 2009 07:13

 

[Participants: Sreenadh OG, DK, Pandit Arjun, Kishore Patnaik, Chandrahari] [Editor: Sreenadh OG] Admin Note: Any editor preparing such write-ups based on AIA Group conversations are requested to follow the below guidelines. The participants and editors name should be mentioned at the top of the documentThe

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avoided. Always give the original thread URL as a reference, in the beginning of the document. [Thread URL: /message/2] [This is a conversation record write-up prepared based on a thread of discussion happened in AIA . (). Please note that, many points from the original discussion might have been omitted here to make this readable] Sreenadh: The

concept of Rasi (Sign) existed in the period of Mahabharata or not?

Does anybody have a proof? If the concept of Rasi was not known at that

time, should we conclude that only Nakshatra based prediction system

(stellar astrology) - Probably a Nakshatra Cakram and predictions based

on that - only existed in that period? In that case since combination

of planets and Drishti of planets are mentioned in Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) should we conclude that, in epic literature, Combination means combination of planets in a Nakshatra and

Drishti means Drishti of planets placed in different Nakshatras? It

sounds absurd but seems logical! What is your opinion? Please clarify. DK: Faith can move mountains! Sreenadh: Of

course I agree - Faith can move mountains. And I believe that

systematic research can bring out many evidence and logics behind the

concepts and knowledge put forward by the seers. I know you would

agree. We are finding the first reference to signs in Yanjncha Valkya

Smrithi. The Mahabharata or Ramayana does not mention the signs (The

Sanskrit name - Mesha, Vrishbha etc), though it describes general

astrology in detail. It seems that only the astrology based on stellar

divisions were popular on those days. But the subject demands more

research and verification. A study of astrology then naturally becomes

a study of allied subjects such as History, Astronomy and Calendar

systems, Mathematics, Literature and many more! Yes. Many have studied

the subject of astrology, just out of curiosity. But only a few

approached it systematically, trying to re-establish the lost facts and

logics, and also trying to explore new horizons. Let us also be in that

path of few. The lines: "Two roads diverged in a wood, I took the one less traveled by And that has made all the difference" echoes in my mind. Let us change those lines, and sing together -"WE took the one less traveled by - and that has made all the difference". It

is probably the hardest way, but why should we think that there is

another simple way at all! (Because all of them fail to clarify the

clear and logical questions asked) When we walk though our hard way,

for the people who follow us later, it becomes the simple path, all the

hurdles removed. Yes, it is a distant dream. But we should have a big

dream and aim to follow, at least to fulfill a small amount of it.

Dream of conquering the mountain and practice, we could at least

conquer the hills. It is belief that keeps me in this path. Yes, I too

think - Faith can move mountains. Shh.... and I am tying to move one...

) Which mountain, I will explain - The logical and structural

discrepancies in astrology today, by collecting/depending on all the

support I can get from those great seers. And this little simple person

with out any special abilities or knowledge as I am, I wonder how can I

do it. Yes, may be me alone can not - but a group can!! Because there

are many others who are far better than me, (in this group itself, and

also in other groups), who has already done great efforts in this

direction!! (Correcting the logical and structural discrepancies in

astrology today, by collecting/depending_on all the support we can get

from those great seers). Yes. So if not me, many others can/will do it,

and they are working in this direction. (me too...). Some of them are

members this group and some are not! When I say this, 1) I

remember Chandra Hari who corrected and supplied evidence related to

the conceptual errors crept into modern astrology related to Ayanamsa. 2) PVR ji, of Vedic Astrology forum who created a great software and supplied it free to the world. 3) Persons like Dakshinamoorthi ji, Pandit ji etc who dedicated their life and work for the cause of astrology. Yes

there are many more. And the list is endless, ever growing… I respect

and bow before those many who become part of such efforts due to their

pure and selfless interest and curiosity in astrology and the respect

for ancient knowledge. Yes, all these people, I feel close to my heart.

At the end, I feel like asking to myself, what is the purpose of any

research in to ancient astrology? And the answer pops up - Yes, It is

required, since it makes this system more dependable, fruitful,

beneficial to many. It helps us in revealing the truthfulness of Rishi

vakyas to many. The great Sages uttered it, since they want us to know,

and we do the same since we want them to realize the greatness of those

words by seers. Knowledgeable people approach everything systematical

and in a structured way. They demand proof and evidence for everything.

So we try to collect them, and present it to the posterity in a well

structured way, since it is what they demand! Please correct me, if you

find any of my thoughts going in the wrong direction. DW: All

said and done, in the end it is all about the "jyoti". is it not?

Anything that leads towards that "jyoti" is the path to be followed. Maa asato maa sad gamaya Tamaso maa jyotir gamaya Sreenadh: I agree to that statement. Thanks. Chandra Hari: Astrology

in epic period, I am to have some loud thinking...to facilitate a

detailed discussion - epics took their present form across many

hundreds of years. They are not of one age and of one author. And

latest redactions took place as late as 100 AD or even during Gupta

times. It may look odd to some people the questioning of traditional

beliefs about epics. But if we are looking for truth, we must try to know the historical facts that make a commentary on Gita unavailable before the time of Sankaracharya (800 AD). If the epics and their history of avtars were true India would have been strewn all around with temples of KrishnaKrishna?

There are ancient records about the temples at Kanyakumari,

Ujjayini,Kamakhya, Devagiri and about temples of Kerala like

Thirumandhamkunnuand others. Why such records are not available about

Ram temple atAyodhya? Kalidasa when he wrote Kumarasambhava has

referred to temples of Ujjayini and Devagiri. Has he referred to the

Ram temple at Ayodhyain Raghuvamsam? Can such omission be natural?

and Rama instead ofSiva and Sakti. What is the truth that emerges if we

compare thenumbers of Siva and Sakti temples with those of Rama and

Egypt of 2000 BC gives evidence in terms of ruins of ancient

temples,palaces and burials but why Hasthinapura and Ayodhya is not

givingevidence of even hutments in Ayodhya at say 1000 BC? On the

contrarycities galore on the east in Harappa and Mohanjadaro. Why none

hasfound the ruins of Great Mithila and Lanka?

Now coming back to the epic period - there is no unanimous conclusions

on the historicity or date of the epics. Compare theAcharyaparampara of

Vedanta with the Buddhist tradition - why theBuddhist tradition is more

authentic with more details? How is itthat Vyasa and Valmiki are

mythical and Buddha is historical? What about the Weekdays? Epics have no mention of them. Withoutweekdays can there be astrology? These are some thoughts that came to my mind. Sreenadh: Thank you for the guidance. This is prime reason I respect you - You always speak based on evidence only. You

said – "But if we are looking for truth, we must try to know the

historical facts that make a commentary on Gita unavailable before the

time of Sankaracharya (800 AD)." Really

that was a new knowledge to me! No. I don't know!! Thanks for providing

that beautiful bit of info. Yes, I don't have answers to the other

questions put forward by you as well. You said – "These are some thoughts that came to my mind." And

now you have made us think in those lines as well. Yes, I agree, It

is asking the right questions is the first step in getting/seeking

right answers, and doing true research. Even though I fail to answer

those questions, I will never fail to learn the lessons they give. We

expect more mails from you that enlighten us on the various issues in

astrology - and shed some light on the dark areas, which frightens

students who want to approach/learn astrology in a systematic manner. "Tamasoma Jyotirgamaya...." Pandit Arjun: All

the thoughts that came into sri chandra hari's mind had come to my mind

also, rather they come to all knowledge seeking minds. Since history,

astrology and mythology are all inexplicably intertwined, let me touch

them in my limited knowledge.

Both the epics which are called "itihasa" mahabharat and ramayan give

details of planets, stars and their significance in various places not

as an astrology lesson but their relative strength to the characters.

As regards historic proof of ram janmabhoomi at ayodhya is concerned,

kalidasa in his raghuvansham describes ram as the incarnation of lord

vishnu and also ayodhya.

If we are to find out historical support of these mentions, it would be

a great exercise and we can contribute with whatever references we

could lay hands on. Sreenadh: You said- "As regards historic proof of ram janmabhoomi at ayodhya is concerned, kalidasa in his raghuvansham describes ram as the incarnation of lord vishnu and also ayodhya." Thanks, I noted the point, and note down those historically important slokas. "Ohm Sahanavavatu, Sahanoubunaktu.... Sahaveeryam karavavahai, Thejasweenamadheenamastu... ma vidishavahi...Ohm..Santi..Santi..Santi..." Pandit Arjun: 1. In

epics, the heros and villains are all called characters. while

mentioning about the mahabharata and ramayana, my observation was that

these people were described for their traits due to what star or

planet. also several auspicious muhurtas as per panchang were detailed.

by the way the original mahabharat of more than thirty volumes

published decades ago contain more minute details at micro level which

unfortunately i could see in my childhood but could not read till date

as they are lost and are available only in few libraries. 2. sri

hari ji was lamenting for ayodhya not finding mention in historic books

and government records and observed how kalidasa omitted mention of

ayodhaya in his book raghuvamsham. to this I observed that there are

MANY historic books starting from vishnupurana and skandapurana besides

the epics mahabhrat and ramayan and hundreds of medieval classics

mentioning lord ram's ayodya including the book raghuvamsham. hari ji

first mentioned that kalidasa talks about other places in

kumarasambhavam but not ayodhya in raghuvamsham. if it kumarasambhavam,

i do not know, but if it is raghuvamsham, kalidasa made no omission of

ayodhya. Sreenadh: We

are not here to promote the interest of any, but just to promote true

and sincere research. Who ever does that, and shows us the path, let

them guide us. Let us share our respect with them, who ever they are.

In one instance, it could be You, in another me, and in yet another

some one else. I was asking that doubt with complete sincerity. Just to

learn from your knowledge and understanding of that subject. Yes, our

mind is like a torch, where ever we turn it to only that we can see,

and the other areas may remain dark. May knowledge and truth guide us.

Let us pray to the goddess of truth and knowledge goddess Saraswaty to

guide us all. For me lord Siva (who creates and destructs everything,

and is one with time, the mahakala or kala purusha) is the father, and

goddess Parvati (the nature and universe) the mother, and everybody my

relatives. I want to be as humble as I can and leave aside the ego.

From Zero we came and to Zero we go. In between let us enjoy the

subjects we love - because we all love the joy of life. Going back to the subject of discussion, taking the 3rd party view:

Hari ji said: "Kalidasa when he wrote Kumarasambhava has referred to

temples of Ujjayini and Devagiri. Has he referred to the Ram temple at

Ayodhya in Raghuvamsam? Can such omission be natural? This means Hari

ji thinks/couldn't find the mention of Ayodhya in Raghuvamsam". Arjun

ji said: "Kalidasa in his raghuvansham describes ram as the incarnation

of lord vishnu and also ayodhya. This means Arjun ji could find the

mention of Ayodhya in Raghuvamsam." These

statements contradict!! Who is correct? I don't know. It would be clear

to all, if Arjun ji helps us by providing the sloka no, or reference. Arjun

ji said: "There are MANY historic books starting from vishnupurana and

skandapurana besides the epics mahabhrat and ramayan and hundreds of

medieval classics mentioning lord ram's ayodya including the book

raghuvamsham". Yes, I agree completely. But I know that Hari is

thinking of "historical facts" - archeological evidences, presence/ref.

of temples in literarily works the period of which (the period at which

that books were written) is clear etc.

I feel that what you say and what he says is correct and clear in this

respect. Hari has high regard for Siva, Sakti, Kumara etc and the

Sindhu-Saraswaty, Tantric and Dravidian culture. All these would add

extra flavor to Each and every line he writes, which I too think is

good for the revival of that vast lost knowledge. But keep these things

in mind while reading what Hari writes, to get an impartial view. Yes,

it is also right that usually he don't write/speak about things without

supportive evidence. Sreenadh: I

felt like re-reading some of the previous messages and continuing that

thread, since I encountered a new sloka today. In the ancient text

'Jyotisha Karandak' (probably a text in the Jain school of astrology),

it is said that- Lagnam cha dakhinavisute suvi assa uttaram ayane Lagnam sai visuvesu panchasu vi dakhina ayane This sloka is in Prakrit. In sanskrit is should be- Lagnam cha dakshina vishuveshwapi asvam uttara ayane Lagnam swati vishuveshu panchaswapi dakshina ayane

In this sloka the Nakshatras Aswati and Swati are said to be the

'Lagna' of the equinox!! This probably means that there was a time when

Nakshatras where considered similar to Rasi!! Consider it along with

the fact that in Epics only Nakshatra chakra and placement of planets

in Nakshatra is mentioned! For sure we know that- · In Vedic period : Tropical calender + (fixed) Nakshatra chakra was used So

if Vedic astrology was Tropical, and if Nakshatra chakra was a gift of

Vedic astrology, then is it that Nirayana (Siderial) system based on

Rasis is of Non-Vedic origin? Is it that epics depict the extension of

Nakshatra chakra system? Chandra Hari ji says: "Whatabout the Weekdays? Epics have no mention of them. Without weekdays can there be astrology?" As far as I know, it might be 'Yanjchavalkya Smriti' that mentions week days first. It says – SooryaH Somo MaheeputraH Somaputro BrihaspatiH SukraH sanaischaro rahuH ketuschaite grahaH smrita Meaning,

Su, Mo, Ma, Me, Ju, Ve, Sa, Ra and Ke are the Grahas. We can see the

planets arranged in the order of Weekdays in this sloka. Is it that

week days originated in the period of Smriti only? Or is it that the

Non-vedic (or Vedic?) concept of Weekdays got a mentioned in smritis

only by the period of Yajchavalkya smriti? By the way, Do you know

which is the text that first mentions the name of Rasis (Signs)? I have

a cute info. In 'Bodhayana sootra' it is said that- "Meena Meshayor Mesha Vrishabhayor vasnta" It

might be the first mention of signs starting from Aries (Mesha) in

available literature. In Yajchavalkya smriti also the signs are

mentioned. Which of them is oldest? Who knows!! Just sharing some info.

Kishore Patnaik: The

concept of Lagna seems to have existed during the times of Ramayana.

There seems to be some slokas in Ayodhya kanda which mentions Rama to

be born in Cancer Lagna. But there is some controversy regarding this.

But it has to be accepted that it is more prevalent to recognize the

day and time by Stars rather than by Lagna or by sign, either in

Ramayan or Mahabharat.

We should remember that both the concepts of Stars and signs refer to

the same zodiac and signs as well as stars refer to constellations of

stars only-albeit different set of them.

Coming to the discussion, before Mahabharat times, there was Abhijit

Star also which seems to have gone away from earth at the beginning of

the Kaliyuga.

The pole star also was earlier called Vega star (Abhijit?) and it was

much higher in Horizon and this is a scientifically proved phenomenon: Maharshi

Vyas has recorded in Mahabharat, Vana Parva (Chap.230, Verses 8-11), a

dialoge between Indra and Skanda where-in it is stated that: Quote:

"Contesting against Abhijit (Vega), the constellation Krittika

(Pliedes) went to "Vana" the Summer Solstice to heat the summer. Then

the star Abhijit slipped down in the sky. At that time Dhanishta was

given the first place in the list of Nakshatras. Rohini was also the

first some time back. Now you decide what to do," said Indra. Unquote

This dialogue shows that when Indra went to Summer Solstice, Vega

started falling down. Many scholars have ridiculed this idea of Star

Falling; but now it is proved by modern astronomy that it was a true

fact that 12,000 years B.C., Vega had really come down to the horizon

from the heights of the sky, to become a pole star.

Krittikas were at the Summer Solstice between 21,800 and 20,840 years

B.C. At this time Dhansishta was at the vernal equinox and hence was

given the first place in the Nakshatras. From this

period, the sages noticed the gradual fall of Abhijit. Falling

steadily, it is assumed the position of the Celestial Pole at 12,000

B.C., when Indra met Skanda to think on the problem of time-reckoning.

The story shows that the Indian sages were observing the stars and

constellations at least from 23,000 years B.C. Sreenadh: Rama

was born in Punarvasu Nakshatra. But is there any authentic statement

that he was born in Karkata Lagna? Please provide the relevant sloka

from Vatmeeki Ramayana. Kishore Patnaik states that – "We should remember that both the concepts of Stars and signs refer to the same zodiac and signs as well as stars refer to constellations of stars only-albeit different set of them."

I disagree. Stars (Taras) and Nakshatras (Stellar divisions = an Area

of sky covering 13 deg 20 min approx) was considered differently even

from Vedic period. Rigveda gives ample proof for this.

Neither the word "Nakshatra" nor the word "Rasi" indicate

constellations, but they are technical terms for specific angular areas

of ecliptic or moon path. It was and is better to consider this areas

of sky" and "constellations" differently once this systematization

happened. For Nakshatras it happened in Vedic period itself. For Rasi

it happened (as per available proof) in the period of Yajchavalkya

smiri and Boudhayans soolbasutra. (yap, it could have been much earlier

as well). So now we have no right to mix and match the term

constellations with neither Nakshatras nor Rasis. Again Kishore states – "The pole star also was earlier called Vega star(Abhijit?)"

Abhijit and Vega are the same?! I doubt. And we need the help of

someone like Chandrahari who knows astronomy to clarify this doubt. I

too have heard the story of Vega. It is a star near Pole, near to

Saptarshas (7 stars, Great bear constellation). Abhijit is a Star near

to moon path. Both are the same?! I wonder. But yap, I am not sure,

needs clarification. Kishore states – Quote Maharshi Vyas has recorded in Mahabharat, Vana Parva (Chap.230, Verses 8-11), a dialoge between Indra and Skanda where-in it is stated that: "Contesting against Abhijit (Vega), the constellation Krittika (Pliedes) went to "Vana" the Summer Solstice to heat the summer. Then the star Abhijit slipped down in the sky. At that time Dhanishta was given the first place in the list of Nakshatras. Rohini was also the first some time back. Now you decide what to do," said Indra. Unquote Once

in this forum I have stated that - "once Abhijit was the base of

Nakshatra division based on Moon path. Only when Nakshatra division of

Moon path is based on Abhijit all the Yoga taras falls with in there

respective divisions. But later this was corrected mathematically and

the Nakshatra divisions got associated with ecliptic". It is a lesson I

learned form Chandrahari ji. Can you provide the Sanskrit quote (in

Sanskrit itself), it could be a supportive evidence. May be it could

also clarify the doubt on Vega and Abhijit are the same or not. I

have heard about the study on fall of Vega, and I think somewhere I

have read an article by Pandit ji (Dr. Ketkar) on the same as well.

Dear Panditji can you elaborate on the same. Pandit Arjun: shivapuran

mentions lord chandra (male) marrying the 27 stars, daughters of

daksha, and neglecting all the 26 wives with his obsession towards

rohini. then daksha curses moon to suffer from kshaya or loss of

power/vitality (AIDS?). then chandra does penance at somnath

jyotirlinga after which lord shiva blesses him to regain his full

energy for 14 days even as losing it fully for the preceding 14 days.

since then moon started waning and waxing for 14 days.

Since itihasas, vedas, mytholgies are all inexplicably intertwined,

this story must have happened long before the king chandra and his 27

wives became solid rock type stars. When chandra was a king and could have had 27 wives, why he is

treated as a female planet? Wish the more learnt members in the group,

throw some more light on this authentic shivapuran story. Sreenadh: Quote When chandra was a king and could have had 27 wives, why he is treated as a female planet? Unquote That is why I used to say - "it is wrong to mix-up Puranas and astrology". * Astrology deals with systematic study of patterns of time and thus destiny.

* Puranas are trying to present History in a different mould. (Making

it with a long story, and mixing with many subjects, and mixing with

many allegoric stories aimed at ethics or the like etc etc)

Puranas are literary works that try to preserve "History". So it would

be better useful for the Historians, but not for astrologers. Of course

we have some minimum use with Puranas, but that is not in searching the

logic behind some basic concepts. If we get trapped in that vast forest

of stories then astrology would misinterpreted and lost in the path. Why Mo was treated a Female planet? It

is better to search for the answer in the foundation concepts of

astrology. I know you will come out with many logics that tell us why

Mo was treated as a female planet based on - * Male/Female classification of signs * Exaltation/Debilitation, Moolatrikona etc. * Earth-Water-Fire-Air-Sky classification of signs * Prime significance allotted to the planets etc [Editors'

comment: This thread stopped here abruptly. Even though started from an

effort to discuss `astrology in epic period', it never went into the

depth or discussed the subject in detail, even though conveyed some

useful knowledge. May be such is the case with all

discussions] - 0 -============================================