An Important Matter

March 9, 2009

Chakraborty da,

It was Pal dynasty and not only Swarno Banik, the same was done to the

Gandhabaniks too.

Infact this subcaste came from Baidya and later developed into the subcaste of

Kayastha.

Regards

Souvik

, " Chakraborty, PL "

<CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:

>

> Dear Learned members,

>

> I have a very limited understanding of Sanskrit.

>

> My understanding tells me that word 'Varna' and 'Varana' (choice / accept

> or welcome) comes from same root. That would mean that people chose

> (varana) a particular profession based on their aptitudes. However, as most

> trade skills / knowledge came through father to son on lineage basis, the

> professions became hereditary and caste system became hereditary.

>

> Sometimes, to punish a group, the king, in connivance with Brahmins,

> changed the caste definition too - like the Pal kings (or was it Sen ?) of

> Bengal

> changed the caste definition of Suvarna Vanik /Subarna Banik group of

> Bengal to a lower caste after the group did not oblige the King by paying

> what was demanded off them

>

> regards

>

> chakraborty

>

> Sunil Bhattacharjya [sunil_bhattacharjya]

> Monday, March 09, 2009 4:27 AM

>

> Re: Re: An Important Matter

Dear Renuji,

>

> Namaste,

>

> About 1300 years before Lord Buddha's birth, the Pandava king Yudhisthira

> told Nahusha (in Mahabharata) that a brahmin is the one who is truthful,

> generous, patient, virtuous and tranquil and has empathy and compassion.

> Yudhisthira.s definition is no different from what Lord Buddha gave.

> Materially speaking the brahmins are not supposed to seek the powers of a

> kshatriya and the wealth of a vaishya. A brahmin is supposed to devote time

> to intellectual pursuits and teaching. Thus we see that though originally we

> know that the varna system started with one's occupation one can belong to a

> particular varna or profession only if one has the suitable attitude, right

> aptitude and the required training. Past karma generally makes things easier

> by allowing one to take birth in a family suitable for one's nature, though

> there may be exceptions. So recognising the birth in a particular

> environment is to recognise the role of one's past karma and Lord Buddha did

> not want to ignore this aspect..

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

>

> --- On Sun, 3/8/09, renunw <renunw wrote:

>

> renunw <renunw

> Re: An Important Matter

>

> Sunday, March 8, 2009, 9:57 AM

>

> Dear Sunil ji,

>

> I agree with you. I can see the subtle difference you mention in these two

> cases.

>

> Lord Buddha never used force to change the caste discrimination in the

> society...but in his 'kingdom' there was no room for caste system. It was

> beautifully explained in Sir Edwin Arnold's Light of Asia...when King

> Suddhodhana the father of Lord Buddha saw him in yellow robes and a beggar's

> bowl;

>

> // Son! why is this? "

>

> " My Father! " came reply,

> " It is the custom of my race. "

>

> " Thy race, "

> Answered the King " counteth a hundred thrones

> From Maha Sammât, but no deed like this. "

>

> " Not of a mortal line, " the Master said,

> " I spake, but of descent invisible,

> The Buddhas who have been and who shall be://

>

> Lord Buddha tried not to deviate from the social norms during that time, as

> he knew it would be an obstacle to make people apprehend his dhamma. For ex.

> he is said to have given different meanings to the word 'brahmin' and to

> many other words too, depending on the situation. Once he mentioned that

> 'brahma' is none other than 'mothers'. The reason was only a mother would

> possess [towards her children]... . the noble qualities of 'Mahabrahma' ,

> namely..metta, muditha, karuna, upekka. In Dhammapada 'brahmin' means a

> fully exalted person. In 'Vasala Sutra' brahmin is judged by his deeds and

> not by his birth. He wanted to teach the society that once born as a human

> being anyone could become a good person if one wanted to.

>

> Lord Buddha selected King Suddhodana and Queen Mahamaya as his parents. If

> he was born to low caste parents, none would have accepted his dhamma. But,

> he was born to change this discrimination and to teach the world that

> everyone is the same...and anyone can attain 'moksha' if one follows the

> right path.

>

> In short, Buddha vividly saw the caste discrimination. He knew it was due to

> one's past demerits/bad kamma that one would be born to a low caste family.

> He knew that those untouchables suffered due to this fact. He wanted to find

> the cessation to this and all other sufferings of all living beings.

>

> Sorry...this is a bit too long...and hope I am clear.

>

> blessings,

>

> Renu

>

> ancient_indian_ astrology@ .

> <%40> com, Sunil Bhattacharjya

> <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:

> >

> > Dear Renuji,

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > To my understanding Lord Buddha tells us in the Vasala Sutta about who is

> (and should be considered as) an outcast in the real sense as observable

> through their actions in the present life. But in the case of the

> untouchable girl Lord Buddha was telling the girl that she was born in an

> untouchable family due to her past Karma. Though both are true, to my mind,

> there is a subtle difference between these two.cases.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

> >

> > --- On Thu, 3/5/09, renunw <renunw@> wrote:

> > renunw <renunw@>

> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: An Important Matter

> > ancient_indian_ astrology

> <%40>

> > Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:01 PM

> >

> > Dear Sunil ji,

> >

> > //Further past karma also decides where one is born. If one is born in a

> particular varna that is due to one's past karma. When Lord Buddha did not

> allow the untouchable girl to marry Ananda he told her that due the karma of

> her past birth she came to be born as an untouchable and she has to suffer

> from the pangs of separation from her beloved.//

> >

> > I agree. You are correct. Let me go a bit further...The incident occurred

> when Ananda thero went to a well to get some water. This untouchable girl

> fell in love with the monk, who had attained only the 1st step, 'sothapanna'

> , out of the 4 steps to 'moksha'. Hence he too had all desires. Also the

> mother of the girl had done a 'bandhana' to get Ananda thero. Naturally

> Ananda had a 'crush' on this girl. Knowing this Buddha chanted 'Jalanandana

> Pirith', which would release Ananda from this 'bandhana'.

> >

> > There had been instances where Buddha went in search of untouchables who

> had good enough karma to attain 'moksha' , and preached dhamma to them.

> >

> > I checked with a learned Buddhist monk in the morning, about the chapter

> in Dhammapada on Brahmins. Even I was wrong there...in that particular

> chapter Buddha used the word brahmin to refer to fully exalted persons. But

> in Vasla Sutra [Discourse on Outcasts] Buddha said,

> >

> > " Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed

> one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman. "

> >

> > I am happy to know that you are well versed with Buddha's teachings. If

> interested the link to Vasala Sutra is:

> >

> > http://www.freedhar <http://www.freedhar/> ma.com/text/ Canon/vasala_

> sutta/Thera_ Piyadassi/ 1.html

> >

> > blessings,

> >

> > Renu

> >

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March 9, 2009

Dear All,

Incidently, a learned man told me a few days ago that - Nowadays there is no caste system since majority of population is working for some company or Govt.

Thanks & Regards

Chiranjiv Mehta--- On Mon, 9/3/09, Chakraborty, PL <CHAKRABORTYP2 wrote:

Chakraborty, PL <CHAKRABORTYP2RE: Re: An Important Matter Date: Monday, 9 March, 2009, 10:26 AM

Dear Learned members,

I have a very limited understanding of Sanskrit.

My understanding tells me that word 'Varna' and 'Varana' (choice / accept

or welcome) comes from same root. That would mean that people chose

(varana) a particular profession based on their aptitudes. However, as most

trade skills / knowledge came through father to son on lineage basis, the

professions became hereditary and caste system became hereditary.

Sometimes, to punish a group, the king, in connivance with Brahmins,

changed the caste definition too - like the Pal kings (or was it Sen ?) of Bengal

changed the caste definition of Suvarna Vanik /Subarna Banik group of

Bengal to a lower caste after the group did not oblige the King by paying

what was demanded off them

regards

chakraborty

Sunil Bhattacharjya [sunil_ bhattacharjya@ ]Monday, March 09, 2009 4:27 AMancient_indian_ astrologyRe: [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: An Important Matter

Dear Renuji,

Namaste,

About 1300 years before Lord Buddha's birth, the Pandava king Yudhisthira told Nahusha (in Mahabharata) that a brahmin is the one who is truthful, generous, patient, virtuous and tranquil and has empathy and compassion. Yudhisthira. s definition is no different from what Lord Buddha gave. Materially speaking the brahmins are not supposed to seek the powers of a kshatriya and the wealth of a vaishya. A brahmin is supposed to devote time to intellectual pursuits and teaching. Thus we see that though originally we know that the varna system started with one's occupation one can belong to a particular varna or profession only if one has the suitable attitude, right aptitude and the required training. Past karma generally makes things easier by allowing one to take birth in a family suitable for one's nature, though there may be exceptions. So recognising the birth in a particular environment is to recognise the role of

one's past karma and Lord Buddha did not want to ignore this aspect..

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Sun, 3/8/09, renunw <renunw (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

renunw <renunw (AT) (DOT) co.uk>[ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: An Important Matterancient_indian_ astrologySunday, March 8, 2009, 9:57 AM

Dear Sunil ji,I agree with you. I can see the subtle difference you mention in these two cases. Lord Buddha never used force to change the caste discrimination in the society...but in his 'kingdom' there was no room for caste system. It was beautifully explained in Sir Edwin Arnold's Light of Asia...when King Suddhodhana the father of Lord Buddha saw him in yellow robes and a beggar's bowl;// Son! why is this?""My Father!" came reply,"It is the custom of my race.""Thy race,"Answered the King "counteth a hundred thronesFrom Maha Sammât, but no deed like this.""Not of a mortal line," the Master said,"I spake, but of descent invisible,The Buddhas who have been and who shall be://Lord Buddha tried not to deviate from the social norms during that time, as he knew it would be an obstacle to make people apprehend his dhamma. For ex. he is said to have given different meanings to

the word 'brahmin' and to many other words too, depending on the situation.. Once he mentioned that 'brahma' is none other than 'mothers'. The reason was only a mother would possess [towards her children]... . the noble qualities of 'Mahabrahma' , namely..metta, muditha, karuna, upekka. In Dhammapada 'brahmin' means a fully exalted person. In 'Vasala Sutra' brahmin is judged by his deeds and not by his birth. He wanted to teach the society that once born as a human being anyone could become a good person if one wanted to. Lord Buddha selected King Suddhodana and Queen Mahamaya as his parents. If he was born to low caste parents, none would have accepted his dhamma. But, he was born to change this discrimination and to teach the world that everyone is the same...and anyone can attain 'moksha' if one follows the right path. In short, Buddha vividly saw the caste discrimination. He knew it was due to one's past demerits/bad kamma that one

would be born to a low caste family. He knew that those untouchables suffered due to this fact. He wanted to find the cessation to this and all other sufferings of all living beings. Sorry...this is a bit too long...and hope I am clear. blessings,Renuancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> Dear Renuji,> > Namaste,> > To my understanding Lord Buddha tells us in the Vasala Sutta about who is (and should be considered as) an outcast in the real sense as observable through their actions in the present life. But in the case of the untouchable girl Lord Buddha was telling the girl that she was born in an untouchable family due

to her past Karma. Though both are true, to my mind, there is a subtle difference between these two.cases.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > --- On Thu, 3/5/09, renunw <renunw wrote:> renunw <renunw.>> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: An Important Matter> ancient_indian_ astrology> Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:01 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil ji,> > > > //Further past karma also decides where one is born. If one is born in a particular varna that is due to one's past karma. When Lord

Buddha did not allow the untouchable girl to marry Ananda he told her that due the karma of her past birth she came to be born as an untouchable and she has to suffer from the pangs of separation from her beloved.//> > > > I agree. You are correct. Let me go a bit further...The incident occurred when Ananda thero went to a well to get some water. This untouchable girl fell in love with the monk, who had attained only the 1st step, 'sothapanna' , out of the 4 steps to 'moksha'. Hence he too had all desires. Also the mother of the girl had done a 'bandhana' to get Ananda thero. Naturally Ananda had a 'crush' on this girl. Knowing this Buddha chanted 'Jalanandana Pirith', which would release Ananda from this 'bandhana'. > > > > There had been instances where Buddha went in search of untouchables who had good enough karma to attain 'moksha' , and preached dhamma to them.> > >

> I checked with a learned Buddhist monk in the morning, about the chapter in Dhammapada on Brahmins. Even I was wrong there...in that particular chapter Buddha used the word brahmin to refer to fully exalted persons. But in Vasla Sutra [Discourse on Outcasts] Buddha said,> > "Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman." > > > > I am happy to know that you are well versed with Buddha's teachings. If interested the link to Vasala Sutra is: > > > > http://www.freedhar ma.com/text/ Canon/vasala_ sutta/Thera_ Piyadassi/ 1.html> > > > blessings,> > > > Renu>This Message was sent from Indian Oil

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March 9, 2009

The spirit of smriti is not "you should be like this". Its spirit is "this kind of person does things this way" and "this is the kind of result of this kind of action". Whether it is MBH nor Manu etc smriti, this holds. While expecting that smriti stipulates something and today's society does not go by it, we are missing this point. Varna is not a seggregation - it is an abstraction. It is like saying "there are four kinds of people in a society" and not "society has four divisions of people". And such division is not occupational as much it is temperamental. We should differentiate the varna and jati aspects. Jati is a cultural unit. That is all. There is no "eligibility" for a born brahmin to be a

"brahmin" or a born "vaisya" to become a "vaisya" as far as that jati is concerned. However when a born brahmin does things that make him worthy of belonging to brahma-varna, then he is a brahmin by varna. Else, he remains brahmin by jati but not by varna. Such a brahmin is generally called brahma-bandhu. "A brahmana is like this" as said by Yudhistira refers to the brahmin by varna, not necessarily the brahmin by jati. Therefore "brahmin is not supposed to seek wealth" or "brahmin should not fight" are more in spirit like "a brahma-varnika will no do those things". Rest all depends on desa-kala-mana and what not. Rishis who gave us smritis, very well knew the difference between encouraging and codifying and making things orthodox. Unlike what most people say, the flexibility about Hinduism is not "lost over time and has become rigid", but we have lost the men to explain our texts to us properly - traditional scholarship is lost.

Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Sent: Monday, March 9, 2009 4:26:43 AMRe: Re: An Important Matter

Dear Renuji,

Namaste,

About 1300 years before Lord Buddha's birth, the Pandava king Yudhisthira told Nahusha (in Mahabharata) that a brahmin is the one who is truthful, generous, patient, virtuous and tranquil and has empathy and compassion. Yudhisthira. s definition is no different from what Lord Buddha gave. Materially speaking the brahmins are not supposed to seek the powers of a kshatriya and the wealth of a vaishya.