Guest guest Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Sorry Ruthenamji, There is a typo. Please read the sentence "Hindus believe in one God but respecting the superiors are looked down upon by them." as "Hindus believe in one God but respecting the superiors are not looked down upon by them." Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Wed, 2/25/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya Re: Fw: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matterwaves-vedic Cc: yeshu2004, vedicscience, atlantavedictemple, deenbc, jyotirved, harimalla, robtw, , Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 8:09 PM Dear Shri Ruthenamji, You wrote : Quote The Veda, the Mahabharata war and all Sanskrit literature were brought to light by European scholars. It is cnfirmed that the Mahabharata war was a sheer myth. Unquote I know that European scholars translated the Veda and the Epics into English as they valued these and they wanted their own people to read them and that was a favour to themselves. Indians had these in Sanskrit as well as in their vernacular languages.1)Do you know that till the year 1882 the King James version of the Bible gave the year of creation as 4004 BCE, whereas the Indian texts, which you are condemning without any substantiation, gave the age of the earth as several billion years, which is the same as what the modern science says.?2)Do you know yourself as to why and from when the Christmas began to be celebrated on December 25 when Jesus Christ himself was born on an earlier month and his year of birth is also on 4 BCE? You should know it first before you say anything about the Winter Solstice. Can you substantiate your statement that the Mahabharata war was a myth and that no such war took place at all? The Indians know how to interpret their ancient texts. The Puranas and Epics are historical texts called Itihasas, interspersed with stories and anecdotes in order to give out the Vedic truths to the masses, through them. You also said : Quote Similarly, the Vedas written by primitive people and like all primitive societies they pray to god for food, health and victory in the war. Unquote The gods in Hinduism, Buddhism (like Tara, amd Manjushri) and Jainism are like the angels of the Semitic religion. Hindus believe that they are superior beings and they are also created by God and that they are at a higher evolutionary step than we are. The Quran also did not say that one should not seek favour from the angels. Even prophet Muhammad was complaining to the Archangel Gabriel about the latter's coming late. to him. Hindus believe in one God but respecting the superiors are looked down upon by them. May be you do not know how to respect your superiors. The Vedas cannot be understood by everybody and you are one of them. However if you wish to learn these then you have to go to a guru with due respect and he will teach you provided he finds you worthy of that. As regards Wilkinsonji' s mail I have replied to that in a separate mail.. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Wed, 2/25/09, yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 > wrote:yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 >Fw: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya @, waves04@ .comCc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, "atlanta vedic" <atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com>, "hinc liz" <hinducivilization>, deenbc (AT) hotmail (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.comWednesday, February 25, 2009, 6:38 PM----- Forwarded Message ----yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 >Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:02:06 AMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter"\the March Equinox - Cosmic Dawn; the June Solstice - Cosmic Midnight; the September Equinox - Cosmic Sunset; and last but best of all, the December Solstice - Cosmic Midday or Uttarayana, the highest position of the Sun whereby as a single Ray (the lost Sun hidden by Vritra) it descends to the Earth casting no shadows" It is all nonsense that you are writing. The Veda, the Mahabharata war and all Sanskrit literature were brought to light by European scholars. It is cnfirmed that the Mahabharata war was a sheer myth. Then how can you try to fix the date? Similarly, the Vedas written by primitive people and like all primitive societies they pray to god for food, health and victory in the war. It is sheer madness to claim philosophy and science in the primittive works.Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>sunil_bhattacharjya @; waves-vedicCc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com; hinducivilization; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com; harimalla@rocketmai l.comWednesday, February 25, 2009 9:01:08 PMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharj- ji Thank you for your reply. If you would be so kind, please provide me with the exact citation where Sri Aurobindo discusses the date of the Mahabharata war. The root of your error is plainly evident. When you write that, “…for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi†, you are basing your conclusions on the Nirayana Sidereal system of calendar measure with its irregular Constellations and shifting ayanamsha. This is not only unreliable and confusing but worst of all it is un-Vedic. It directly contradicts the verses in the Rig Veda that describe “One wheel of three-hundred and sixty spokes, firmly riveted, that shake not in the least.†This ‘One Wheel’ is the eternal and unchanging Tropical zodiac or Sayana system used by the Rishis to precisely measure the Earth in its yearly passage around the ecliptic as well as a corresponding movement in the individual. The errors of the Nirayana system, to which you evidently , arose with the hegemony ofscientific relativism into the realm of the sacred when the astronomer usurped the role of the sage and seer and proclaimed objective astronomical measurement to be the final authority in calendar matters. All that you have written to support your contention that there is no meaningful connection between Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn Solstice and Uttarayana, the northward journey of Sun is, in the final analysis, a direct contradiction of the Dharma. Open your mind and listen to the words of the world’s leading Seer and Vedic Cosmologist on these important matters: “…We speak glibly of a SANTANA Dharma, the 'eternal' Law. But what sort of eternal law, and consequent stability, can a shifting calendar provide the Hindu Samaj? The FLOATING AYANAMSHAS in vogue today, which bear no sanction in the Veda, are anything but stable and constant. Each second that passes of our Earth time causes that distant sidereal point light-years away to change position, thereby making that Ayanamsha with each passing second inoperable and inapplicable for any ritual. If the pundit is sincere to his trade, he must know this. He must know that yesterday's Ayanamsha cannot be held today as valid because IT HAS SHIFTED IN THE HEAVENS, perhaps slightly, but shifted it has. Today it is not where it was yesterday. And if we add to this the complete impossibility to determine just where and what that Ayanamsha might be, then we understand why there is total confusion among the ranks of the pundits. And Hinduism suffers an increasingdeterioration accordingly, with each ritual that propagates this illusion. Absolutism of the eternal Dharma lies within our grasp if we take the same Journey the Veda pre-scribes, poised on the immutable four Cardinal Points: the March Equinox - Cosmic Dawn; the June Solstice - Cosmic Midnight; the September Equinox - Cosmic Sunset; and last but best of all, the December Solstice - Cosmic Midday or Uttarayana, the highest position of the Sun whereby as a single Ray (the lost Sun hidden by Vritra) it descends to the Earth casting no shadows. And therefore it is known as the period of Victory for the Aryan Warrior; or, in the larger cycles of time, as the Golden Age, the Satya Yuga. We need to understand the 'seed' nature of the Makar Sankranti and how it can be said that this is an experience of both the Earth, the individual and of the collective Hindu Samaj, all simultaneously on that very special Solstice.. This is understood when we realise that Time itself is compressed to a seed at the De-cember Solstice. The 'shortest day of the year' has no other factual significance for inhabitants of our special planet than this: compression to a point, compaction to a seed. The light of the Sun, those divine Cows/Rays, is compressed to this point-experience of Time when its measure reaches the extremes of itself [the Solstice or SHORTEST day of the year]. And then when the [Makar] Sankranti is observed with the right 'combination' - the right harmony of the Earth to the Ecliptic - the entire Hindu Samaj connects itself through this 'seed-point' to the replenishing Source from which it originally sprang. Today as in aeons gone by,it can drink once again of the waters the Goddess Mahasaraswati benignly releases abroad upon the world. “Thea†Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, THE MAKAR SANKRANTI - Winter Solstice RE Wilkinson- Sunil Bhattacharjya waves-vedic Cc: robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com ; vedicscience@ rediffmail. com ; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com ; hinducivilization ; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com ; harimalla@rocketmai l.com Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:54 PMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important MatterNamaste R.E.Wilkinsonji, Namaste, You wrote as follows: Quote What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to grasp the underlying truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are completely incorrect.unquote On the contrary you have not understood the difference between the significance of Makara Sankranti and that of Uttarayana. You have referred to Sri Aurobindo. Starting from the day when Lele taught him how to meditate he did advance to high level of thought. But all that Sri Aurobindo said are not to be taken blindly. He said that the Mahabharata war took place in 1190 BCE and we now know that he was wrong from the archaeological evidence itself as the river Saraswati dried up much before 1190 BCE and that at the time of the Mahabharata war it was flowing and Balarama's going to the Saraswati is mentioned in the Mahabharata. . You have quoted from the Rig Veda. Agreed that Brahmanaspati (Brihaspati) did make the knowledge appear (or known) that the certain eternal worlds came into being, which open their doors with moons ( bright and dark fortnights) and autumns (seasons) and that these (the eternal worlds) move effortlessly from one to another, but it did not link up the Makar Rashi with any season. In the Chapter 8 of the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna describes the path by which the yogi, who has known the Brahman departs. Lord Krishna also describes the path by which the yogi, who is disciplined but has not realised Brahman, goes. Other sources such as the Chandogya Upanishad, Baudhayana smriti, Shiva gita and Kurma purana give details of these aspects but nowhere they have linked up Makar Sankranti with Uttarayana. Different ancient texts, composed at different time periods, mention a particular season occurring at different Nakshatras which shows that the seasonsare not tied to the Nakshatras and as the Winter season starts with the Uttarayana so also the Uttarayana should also be not linked to any Nakshatra or Rashi. Makar Sankramana is about Sankramana of the Makar rashi. As I said before that for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi. If you have any doubt abiout the real meaning of rashi, please go to my last mail. Let the truth prevail. It is not late for the astrologers, who did not know this, to correct themselves and recognise that Winter Solstice need not be linked up with the Makar Sankramana. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 2/24/09, Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com> wrote:Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya @Cc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, HinduCalendar, hinducivilization, waves-vedic, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.comTuesday, February 24, 2009, 9:16 AM Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharjya- ji What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to grasp the underlying truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are completely incorrect. These are matters of Veda, obtained through Shruti as you mentioned. But in order to secure a higher understanding of these important matters we must go back to the Vedic scriptures themselves. As a matter of curiosity, How many of you on this study group have even read Sri Aurobindo’s “Secret of the Veda� If this group is truly about Vedic Studies, we must get serious about it and go directly to the source. That said, there is no better authority on the Veda than Sri Aurobindo. He has plainly stated that the Vedas are the oldest extant spiritual scriptures on earth. Its name, “Veda†- the Knowledge, is the received name for the highest spiritual truth of which the human mind is capable. Over the millennia however this high knowledge became lost or corrupted. “As the Veda had passed from the sage to the priest, wrote Sri Aurobindo, so now it began to pass from the hands of the priest into the hands of the scholar. And in that keeping it suffered the last mutilation of its sense and the last diminution of its true dignity and sanctity.†What we are seeing today on WAVES is a continuation of that mutilation and diminution…not through scholars, but through self-important pseudo-scholars like Yeshu Rathenam who are given free rein to post comments that the Veda are a “worthless set of books. This has to stop! Among the many secrets of the Veda given by the ancient sages, are precise instructions, yogic techniques, the goal of which is to help us ascend beyond our mortal mentality to the luminous truth of our being on the spiritual plane of our existence. The Rishis are quite plain spoken on this account. The secret of secrets, the greatest mystery of the Veda is a supremely enlightened state “Swar†which results from a perfect alignment of the individual with the twelve months of the sacrificial year. "Certain eternal worlds are these which have come into being, their doors are shut to you (or opened) by the months and the years. Without effort one world moves in the other, and it is these that Brihaspati has made manifest to knowledge" Rig Veda (II.24.5) These secret eternal worlds have been closed to us by our misperception of the movement of time. The months and the years, therefore have to be re-discovered and created in us by that same power. This, says the Rishi, is the mightiest work, the fairest achievement and it hinges on the conquest of time. “The Vedic idea was that the subconscient darkness and the ordinary life of ignorance held concealed in it all that belongs to the divine life and that these secret riches must be recovered first by destroying the impenitent powers of ignorance and then by possessing the lower life subjected to the higher.†Sri Aurobindo, Secret of the Veda (p. 238) What we are interested in writes Sri Aurobindo, is the process by which one is able to release the soul’s light and come to know and live the higher stages of the journey and in so doing, developing ‘the unity of the nine-rayed and the ten-rayed seers who by the utter thought of the soul, by the word that illumines broke open the fortified pens ...' This then is the Vedic sacrifice: ‘ a journey; indeed the sacrifice itself is described as travelling, as journeying to a divine goal; and the journey and the sacrifice are continually spoken of as a battle against the dark powers.' Ibid, (p. 183) '. . . the possession of our complete divine consciousness delivered from all falsehood by the free descent of the truth, gives us the secure possession of the world of Swar and the enjoyment of mental and physical being lifted into the godhead above the darkness, falsehood and death by the in-streaming of our divine elements. This victory is won in twelve periods of the upward journey, represented by the revolution of the twelve months of the sacrificial year, the periods corresponding to the successive dawns of a wider and wider truth, until the tenth secures the victory. What may be the precise significance of the nine rays and the ten, is a more difficult question which we are not yet in a position to solve*. But the light we have already is sufficient to illuminate all the main imagery of the Rig Veda.' Ibid (p. 182) In his Secret of the Veda, Sri Aurobindo described these worlds of Swar as “Godheads†but it was not until the cosmological discoveries made by “Thea†Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet that these symbols, Vedic “godheads†of “the nine rays and the ten†were revealed to be synonymous with and referring to the 9th and 10th months of the cosmic year: Sagittarius and Capricorn. And, according to the Rishi, it is in the Tenth Month (CAPRICORN) that the final Victory is achieved. It is for this reason and none other that the Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn Gateway, is the most important ritual date in the Hindu Calendar. Perhaps you will now understand why it is so important that the true Makar Sankranti (Winter Solstice) be observed on 21 December and not 14 January. In the service of Truth, RE Wilkinson - Sunil Bhattacharjya Robert E. Wilkinson Monday, February 23, 2009 7:47 PMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important MatterDear Robert E. wilkinsonji, Namaste, The astrologers like AKK show concern at Makar Sankranti being observed about three weeks after the Winter Solstice but they never care to know what is the true meaning of the Makar Sankranti. Makar is the Makar rashi and Sankranti means the act of Sankraman or intrusion. So Makar Sankranti has to when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. AKK and others never care to know why Makar Rashi is considered important. Shravana nakshatra is in the Makar rashi and this is Nakshatra ruled by Shri Hari. Shravana and Shruti has the same origin and Shruti is the Veda. Shravana is considered asthe Nakshatra of the Veda-Mata Saraswati. Before Abhijit Nakshatra, whose ruler is Brahmaa, moved away to become the Pole-star, Abhijit used to be a Nakshatra in the makar rashi. Appropriately Makar rashi was called the Brahma rashi in the Mahabharata. Astrologically also the Makar Rashi is considered to be Rashi of Bharatvarsha. Thus the Makar Rashi has a unique position andthe Sun's entry into the Makar Rashi is an important event. Thus the Makar Sankranti has been and will be observed when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. Now it is also true that at one time the Winter Solstice did take place in the Makar Rashi for close to twenty two centuries. Even the latitudinal line at the point of the Winter Solstice had begun to be called as the Makar Rekha or the Tropic of Capricorn and this was appropriate only as long as the Wlnter Solstice occurred in the true Makar Rashi. So AKK and others think that Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice are synonymous, forgetting that this can only happen only for close to twenty two centuries at a time and then wait for close to twenty four Millennia for that to reoccur. This is not to say that the Winter Solstice has no importance. The Tropical Calendar cannot do without the recognising the Winter Solstice. So the Tropical calendar has to learn to coexist with the Sidereal calendar. If those who want to observe the Winter Solstice as the Uttarayana day can observe it by all means. So let us have one additional festivalday on the Uttarayana day for those who want to onserve that rather than trying to annul the Makar Sankranti festival on the day when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com> wrote:Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya @, harimalla@rocketmai l.comCc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, HinduCalendar, hinducivilization, waves-vedic, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) comMonday, February 23, 2009, 7:55 AMNamaste Hari Mala-ji,Thank you for your response and the interesting information about the Makar. You bring up some interesting points in your letter which I feel the need to address in some detail. Let me begin with your request that those of us interested in Calendar Reform do this through a "concerted effort and if possible without changing any of the current practices and by not insisting on any particular method. It is your belief that this would be the best type of reform and acceptable to most". I am sure you have the best of intentions but your reply reveals exactly what is WRONG with the general attitude surrounding these important matters. Let me explain: First, it is virtually impossible to reform the calendar through a concerted effort given the wide gaps in understanding evidenced by these discussions on WAVES. I agree with you that Dr. Arya is worthy of praise but, in my opinion, the scholarship of Krishen Kaul and Yeshu Rathenam does not rise to that level. Nevertheless you would prefer that we find an inclusive solution, without changing the current practices and acceptable to most. In other words you would be comfortable with some kind of compromise that doesn’t rock the boat. You are evidently unaware that when it comes to matters of Higher Truth and the cosmological absolutes that the Veda prescribes, compromise is simply not an option. What is required is credible LEADERSHIP that can expose the fallacious logic that so often passes for wisdom on this discussion group. What I find simply unbelievable is that many of the members of WAVES, people who supposedly have some knowledge of the Veda,accept the pretentious posturing of AKK as gospel while virtually ignoring the authoritative statements of Veda masters like Sri Aurobindo, “Thea†Patrizia-Norelli- Bachelet and Swami Dayananda Saraswati. No discrimination is made between the opinions of scholars and the direct knowledge of the sage. Naturally this results in an environment of mass confusion out of which true Calendar Reform cannot emerge. And what is the result? One of the esteemed leaders of a Vedic Temple in the US reads what I have written on calendar reform and, not being a Sanskritist or Jyotish scholar himself, he writes and asks AKK to set him straight out of his vast experience and knowledge. Here is someone who holds a position of trust and leadership in the religious community, responsible for the spiritual guidance of others, and he has no understanding of these important matters. I have written him on several occasions to ask for a fair hearing but, because of his faith in AKK, I have not received even the courtesy of a reply. So this man, having placed his confidence in a person of no realization and preferring not to rock the boat, returns to his flock and leads them on a path of Adharma rather than make a sincere effort to establish what is and is not the truth of the Veda. Now multiply this by tens of thousands and you have some idea of the problem we must overcome tore-establish the Sanatana Dharma. So to answer your question, No! we cannot give in to compromise. No! we cannot continue the current Nirayana practices and Yes!, we must insist on the method laid down in the Veda if we are to have any meaningful reform of the Calendar. As for the names of the temples in India that have embraced the beginnings of Calendar reform, you will find them listed on my website http://www.vediccos mology.com. In the service of truth, RE Wilkinson Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release 2/23/2009 7:17 AMChecked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release 2/23/2009 7:17 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 WAVES-Vedic , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: Shri Robert E. Wilkinsonji, Namaskar! Your discussion with Shri Bhattaharjya regarding " An important matter " is very confusing though interesting! For instance you have said, " When you write that,'for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashiâ€' , you are basing your conclusions on the Nirayana Sidereal system of calendar measure with its irregular Constellations and shifting ayanamsha. This is not only unreliable and confusing but worst of all it is un-Vedic " . The main subject of your discussion and that of Shri Bhattacharjya is zodiac, whether it is so called sidereal or so called Tropical! I consulted several dictionaries to find the definition of the wrod zodiac, and as per Oxford English Dictionary, it is, " An imaginary belt in the heavens, about 18° wide, through which the ecliptic passes centrally, and which forms the background of the motions of the sun, moon and planets; it is divided into twelve equal parts of 30° called signs of the zodiac, named after constellations that once corresponded to them but do so no longer. The constellations, with the appropriate symbols, are as follows: Aries (Ram), Taurus(Bull), Gemini (Twins), Cancer (Crab), Leo (Lion), Virgo (Virgin), Libra (Balance), Scorpio (Scorpion), Sagittarius (Archer), Capricornus (Goat), Aquarius (Water bearer),Pisces (Fishes) " . Zodiac, being actually a derivative of Greek word " zodiakos " , means " A circle of animals " . It is thus clear in a layman's language that zodiac itself is an imaginary belt which has been divided further into twelve imaginary equal divisions and each division given an imaginary name! No wonder, jyotishis, whether the so called sayana or the so called nirayana, are making astoundingly correct predictions from the positions of planets in an imaginary division of an imaginary belt! What I could gather further from your and Shri Bhattacharjya's posts is that you and your " mentor " through your " tapasya " and " yoga " are " visualizing " something like a " Goat " (or is it a Crocodile? since in India Makara means a crocodile!) being formed in the skies when it is Winter Solstice, whereas Shri Bhattachrjya sees, in/through his Jyoitisha Shastras, that such a formation could have taken place on the day of Winter Solstice sometime in the past but it is not happening like that now-a-days! AS a layman's guide like the Oxford English Dictionary has said, some groups of stars could have resembled some forms like that of a Ram or Bull etc. several thousands of years back, but now a days, because of the proper motion of stars, no cluster resembles either a Bull or Scorpion! Then again, one does not have to be a highly qualified scholar to understand that a Bull is a Bull and a Scorpion is a Scorpion which means that they can never be of equal sizes! Same is the case with " Twins " who can never be equal to a Crab! As such, as and when clusters of Stars did " jumble " into such formations as " Archer " and " Virgin " , they were never equal to one another! Since jyotishis, whether so called sayana Vedic or so called nirayana Vedic, cannot work with anything unequal, whether it is nakshatras or " astrological signs " they had to some how " cut the constellations to a uniform size of thirty degrees each " . And that is what exactly was known as Chaldean astrology! And as the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention, so jyotishis had to search for scriptural authorities, even if there are none which advise us to consult some soothsayer for knowing ouir future on the shoulders of a non-existent " division " of a non- existent " belt " ! If, therefore, Shri Bhattacharjya has seen " the sun meeting a Bull " it must have been the same Chaldean Bull rather than some Indian Bull! The only problem is that he has seen such a " meetign of the sun with the Bull " as per the Vedas--though he has not quoted the exact references! Maybe what he wants to prove is that even the Vedas are talking of Chaldean constellations! And what you are seeing even today at the time of Winter Solstice is something like either a Crocodile or a Goat, about which perhaps you are not yourself sure, and therefore trying to quote some or the other authority, which itself is making the issue all the more confusing! Or is it that you and Shri Bahttacharjya, through Yogic and jyotisha powers, are going to create a new " rashichakra " of twelve equal divisions? We do hear that such an " event " did occur in the past when Vishvamitra tried to create a new Universe with all the galaxies! So maybe he has re-incarnated! After all, if " Vamadevas " and " Parasharas " galore can re-incarnate to teach ignoramus people like me some phalita jyotisha, what can prevent Vishvamitra to re- incarnate! Anyway, three cheers for the non-existent twelve-equal-divisions of the non-existent zodiac! I can only keep my fingers crossed and pray that the real Vedic calendar does not get dismantled further in the cross fire of non- existent Tropical versus non-existent sidereal zodiac! With regards, A K Kaul WAVES-Vedic , " Robert E. Wilkinson " <robtw@> wrote: > > Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharj-ji > > > > Thank you for your reply. If you would be so kind, please provide me with the exact citation where Sri Aurobindo discusses the date of the Mahabharata war. > > > > > > The root of your error is plainly evident. When you write that, “…for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi†, you are basing your conclusions on the Nirayana Sidereal system of calendar measure with its irregular Constellations and shifting ayanamsha. This is not only unreliable and confusing but worst of all it is un-Vedic. It directly contradicts the verses in the Rig Veda that describe “One wheel of three-hundred and sixty spokes, firmly riveted, that shake not in the least.†This ‘One Wheel’ is the eternal and unchanging Tropical zodiac or Sayana system used by the Rishis to precisely measure the Earth in its yearly passage around the ecliptic as well as a corresponding movement in the individual. The errors of the Nirayana system, to which you evidently , arose with the hegemony of scientific relativism into the realm of the sacred when the astronomer usurped the role of the sage and seer and proclaimed objective astronomical measurement to be the final authority in calendar matters. > > > > All that you have written to support your contention that there is no meaningful connection between Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn Solstice and Uttarayana, the northward journey of Sun is, in the final analysis, a direct contradiction of the Dharma. Open your mind and listen to the words of the world’s leading Seer and Vedic Cosmologist on these important matters: > > > > “…We speak glibly of a SANTANA Dharma, the 'eternal' Law. But what sort of eternal law, and consequent stability, can a shifting calendar provide the Hindu Samaj? The FLOATING AYANAMSHAS in vogue today, which bear no sanction in the Veda, are anything but stable and constant. Each second that passes of our Earth time causes that distant sidereal point light-years away to change position, thereby making that Ayanamsha with each passing second inoperable and inapplicable for any ritual. If the pundit is sincere to his trade, he must know this. He must know that yesterday's Ayanamsha cannot be held today as valid because IT HAS SHIFTED IN THE HEAVENS, perhaps slightly, but shifted it has. Today it is not where it was yesterday. And if we add to this the complete impossibility to determine just where and what that Ayanamsha might be, then we understand why there is total confusion among the ranks of the pundits. And Hinduism suffers an increasing deterioration accordingly, with each ritual that propagates this illusion. > > > > Absolutism of the eternal Dharma lies within our grasp if we take the same Journey the Veda pre-scribes, poised on the immutable four Cardinal Points: the March Equinox - Cosmic Dawn; the June Solstice - Cosmic Midnight; the September Equinox - Cosmic Sunset; and last but best of all, the December Solstice - Cosmic Midday or Uttarayana, the highest position of the Sun whereby as a single Ray (the lost Sun hidden by Vritra) it descends to the Earth casting no shadows. And therefore it is known as the period of Victory for the Aryan Warrior; or, in the larger cycles of time, as the Golden Age, the Satya Yuga. > > We need to understand the 'seed' nature of the Makar Sankranti and how it can be said that this is an experience of both the Earth, the individual and of the collective Hindu Samaj, all simultaneously on that very special Solstice. This is understood when we realise that Time itself is compressed to a seed at the De-cember Solstice. The 'shortest day of the year' has no other factual significance for inhabitants of our special planet than this: compression to a point, compaction to a seed. The light of the Sun, those divine Cows/Rays, is compressed to this point-experience of Time when its measure reaches the extremes of itself [the Solstice or SHORTEST day of the year]. And then when the [Makar] Sankranti is observed with the right 'combination' - the right harmony of the Earth to the Ecliptic - the entire Hindu Samaj connects itself through this 'seed-point' to the replenishing Source from which it originally sprang. Today as in aeons gone by, it can drink once again of the waters the Goddess Mahasaraswati benignly releases abroad upon the world. “Thea†Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, THE MAKAR SANKRANTI - Winter Solstice > > > > RE Wilkinson > > - > Sunil Bhattacharjya > waves-vedic > Cc: robtw@ ; vedicscience@ ; atlantavedictemple@ ; hinducivilization ; deenbc@ ; jyotirved@ ; harimalla@ > Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:54 PM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter > > > Namaste R.E.Wilkinsonji, > > Namaste, > > You wrote as follows: > > Quote > > What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to grasp the underlying truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are completely incorrect. > > unquote > > On the contrary you have not understood the difference between the significance of Makara Sankranti and that of Uttarayana. You have referred to Sri Aurobindo. Starting from the day when Lele taught him how to meditate he did advance to high level of thought. But all that Sri Aurobindo said are not to be taken blindly. He said that the Mahabharata war took place in 1190 BCE and we now know that he was wrong from the archaeological evidence itself as the river Saraswati dried up much before 1190 BCE and that at the time of the Mahabharata war it was flowing and Balarama's going to the Saraswati is mentioned in the Mahabharata.. > > You have quoted from the Rig Veda. Agreed that Brahmanaspati (Brihaspati) did make the knowledge appear (or known) that the certain eternal worlds came into being, which open their doors with moons ( bright and dark fortnights) and autumns (seasons) and that these (the eternal worlds) move effortlessly from one to another, but it did not link up the Makar Rashi with any season. In the Chapter 8 of the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna describes the path by which the yogi, who has known the Brahman departs. Lord Krishna also describes the path by which the yogi, who is disciplined but has not realised Brahman, goes. Other sources such as the Chandogya Upanishad, Baudhayana smriti, Shiva gita and Kurma purana give details of these aspects but nowhere they have linked up Makar Sankranti with Uttarayana. Different ancient texts, composed at different time periods, mention a particular season occurring at different Nakshatras which shows that the seasons are not tied to the Nakshatras and as the Winter season starts with the Uttarayana so also the Uttarayana should also be not linked to any Nakshatra or Rashi. Makar Sankramana is about Sankramana of the Makar rashi. As I said before that for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi. If you have any doubt abiout the real meaning of rashi, please go to my last mail. > > Let the truth prevail. It is not late for the astrologers, who did not know this, to correct themselves and recognise that Winter Solstice need not be linked up with the Makar Sankramana. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Tue, 2/24/09, Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw@> wrote: > > Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw@> > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter > sunil_bhattacharjya@ > Cc: vedicscience@, atlantavedictemple@, HinduCalendar , hinducivilization , waves-vedic , deenbc@, jyotirved@, harimalla@ > Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 9:16 AM > > >  > Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharjya-ji > > > > What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to grasp the underlying truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are completely incorrect. These are matters of Veda, obtained through Shruti as you mentioned. But in order to secure a higher understanding of these important matters we must go back to the Vedic scriptures themselves. > > As a matter of curiosity, How many of you on this study group have even read Sri Aurobindo’s “Secret of the Vedaâ€? If this group is truly about Vedic Studies, we must get serious about it and go directly to the source. That said, there is no better authority on the Veda than Sri Aurobindo. He has plainly stated that the Vedas are the oldest extant spiritual scriptures on earth. Its name, “Veda†- the Knowledge, is the received name for the highest spiritual truth of which the human mind is capable. Over the millennia however this high knowledge became lost or corrupted. “As the Veda had passed from the sage to the priest, wrote Sri Aurobindo, so now it began to pass from the hands of the priest into the hands of the scholar. And in that keeping it suffered the last mutilation of its sense and the last diminution of its true dignity and sanctity.†What we are seeing today on WAVES is a continuation of that mutilation and diminution… not through scholars, but through self-important pseudo-scholars like Yeshu Rathenam who are given free rein to post comments that the Veda are a “worthless set of books. This has to stop! > > > > Among the many secrets of the Veda given by the ancient sages, are precise instructions, yogic techniques, the goal of which is to help us ascend beyond our mortal mentality to the luminous truth of our being on the spiritual plane of our existence. The Rishis are quite plain spoken on this account. The secret of secrets, the greatest mystery of the Veda is a supremely enlightened state “Swar†which results from a perfect alignment of the individual with the twelve months of the sacrificial year. > > > > " Certain eternal worlds are these which have come into being, their doors are shut to you (or opened) by the months and the years. Without effort one world moves in the other, and it is these that Brihaspati has made manifest to knowledge " Rig Veda (II.24.5) > > > > These secret eternal worlds have been closed to us by our misperception of the movement of time. The months and the years, therefore have to be re-discovered and created in us by that same power. This, says the Rishi, is the mightiest work, the fairest achievement and it hinges on the conquest of time. > > > > “The Vedic idea was that the subconscient darkness and the ordinary life of ignorance held concealed in it all that belongs to the divine life and that these secret riches must be recovered first by destroying the impenitent powers of ignorance and then by possessing the lower life subjected to the higher.†Sri Aurobindo, Secret of the Veda (p. 238) > > > > What we are interested in writes Sri Aurobindo, is the process by which one is able to release the soul’s light and come to know and live the higher stages of the journey and in so doing, developing ‘the unity of the nine-rayed and the ten-rayed seers who by the utter thought of the soul, by the word that illumines broke open the fortified pens ...' This then is the Vedic sacrifice: ‘ a journey; indeed the sacrifice itself is described as travelling, as journeying to a divine goal; and the journey and the sacrifice are continually spoken of as a battle against the dark powers.' Ibid, (p. 183) > > > > '. . . the possession of our complete divine consciousness delivered from all falsehood by the free descent of the truth, gives us the secure possession of the world of Swar and the enjoyment of mental and physical being lifted into the godhead above the darkness, falsehood and death by the in-streaming of our divine elements. This victory is won in twelve periods of the upward journey, represented by the revolution of the twelve months of the sacrificial year, the periods corresponding to the successive dawns of a wider and wider truth, until the tenth secures the victory. What may be the precise significance of the nine rays and the ten, is a more difficult question which we are not yet in a position to solve*. But the light we have already is sufficient to illuminate all the main imagery of the Rig Veda.' Ibid (p. 182) > > > > In his Secret of the Veda, Sri Aurobindo described these worlds of Swar as “Godheads†but it was not until the cosmological discoveries made by “Thea†Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet that these symbols, Vedic “godheads†of “the nine rays and the ten†were revealed to be synonymous with and referring to the 9th and 10th months of the cosmic year: Sagittarius and Capricorn. And, according to the Rishi, it is in the Tenth Month (CAPRICORN) that the final Victory is achieved. It is for this reason and none other that the Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn Gateway, is the most important ritual date in the Hindu Calendar. Perhaps you will now understand why it is so important that the true Makar Sankranti (Winter Solstice) be observed on 21 December and not 14 January. > > > > In the service of Truth, > > > > RE Wilkinson > > - > Sunil Bhattacharjya > Robert E. Wilkinson > Monday, February 23, 2009 7:47 PM > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter > > > Dear Robert E. wilkinsonji, > > Namaste, > > The astrologers like AKK show concern at Makar Sankranti being observed about three weeks after the Winter Solstice but they never care to know what is the true meaning of the Makar Sankranti. Makar is the Makar rashi and Sankranti means the act of Sankraman or intrusion. So Makar Sankranti has to when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. AKK and others never care to know why Makar Rashi is considered important. Shravana nakshatra is in the Makar rashi and this is Nakshatra ruled by Shri Hari. Shravana and Shruti has the same origin and Shruti is the Veda. Shravana is considered asthe Nakshatra of the Veda-Mata Saraswati. Before Abhijit Nakshatra, whose ruler is Brahmaa, moved away to become the Pole-star, Abhijit used to be a Nakshatra in the makar rashi. Appropriately Makar rashi was called the Brahma rashi in the Mahabharata. Astrologically also the Makar Rashi is considered to be Rashi of Bharatvarsha. Thus the Makar Rashi has a unique position and the Sun's entry into the Makar Rashi is an important event. Thus the Makar Sankranti has been and will be observed when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. > > Now it is also true that at one time the Winter Solstice did take place in the Makar Rashi for close to twenty two centuries. Even the latitudinal line at the point of the Winter Solstice had begun to be called as the Makar Rekha or the Tropic of Capricorn and this was appropriate only as long as the Wlnter Solstice occurred in the true Makar Rashi. So AKK and others think that Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice are synonymous, forgetting that this can only happen only for close to twenty two centuries at a time and then wait for close to twenty four Millennia for that to reoccur. This is not to say that the Winter Solstice has no importance. The Tropical Calendar cannot do without the recognising the Winter Solstice. So the Tropical calendar has to learn to coexist with the Sidereal calendar. If those who want to observe the Winter Solstice as the Uttarayana day can observe it by all means. So let us have one additional festival day on the Uttarayana day for those who want to onserve that rather than trying to annul the Makar Sankranti festival on the day when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw@> wrote: > > Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw@> > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter > sunil_bhattacharjya@, harimalla@ > Cc: vedicscience@, atlantavedictemple@, HinduCalendar , hinducivilization , waves-vedic , deenbc@, jyotirved@ > Monday, February 23, 2009, 7:55 AM > > > Namaste Hari Mala-ji, > > Thank you for your response and the interesting information about the Makar. > > You bring up some interesting points in your letter which I feel the need to address in some detail. Let me begin with your request that those of us interested in Calendar Reform do this through a " concerted effort and if possible without changing any of the current practices and by not insisting on any particular method. It is your belief that this would be the best type of reform and acceptable to most " . > > I am sure you have the best of intentions but your reply reveals exactly what is WRONG with the general attitude surrounding these important matters. Let me explain: > > First, it is virtually impossible to reform the calendar through a concerted effort given the wide gaps in understanding evidenced by these discussions on WAVES. I agree with you that Dr. Arya is worthy of praise but, in my opinion, the scholarship of Krishen Kaul and Yeshu Rathenam does not rise to that level. Nevertheless you would prefer that we find an inclusive solution, without changing the current practices and acceptable to most. In other words you would be comfortable with some kind of compromise that doesn’t rock the boat. You are evidently unaware that when it comes to matters of Higher Truth and the cosmological absolutes that the Veda prescribes, compromise is simply not an option. What is required is credible LEADERSHIP that can expose the fallacious logic that so often passes for wisdom on this discussion group. What I find simply unbelievable is that many of the members of WAVES, people who supposedly have some knowledge of the Veda, accept the pretentious posturing of AKK as gospel while virtually ignoring the authoritative statements of Veda masters like Sri Aurobindo, “Thea†Patrizia-Norelli-Bachelet and Swami Dayananda Saraswati. No discrimination is made between the opinions of scholars and the direct knowledge of the sage. Naturally this results in an environment of mass confusion out of which true Calendar Reform cannot emerge. > > And what is the result? One of the esteemed leaders of a Vedic Temple in the US reads what I have written on calendar reform and, not being a Sanskritist or Jyotish scholar himself, he writes and asks AKK to set him straight out of his vast experience and knowledge. Here is someone who holds a position of trust and leadership in the religious community, responsible for the spiritual guidance of others, and he has no understanding of these important matters. I have written him on several occasions to ask for a fair hearing but, because of his faith in AKK, I have not received even the courtesy of a reply. So this man, having placed his confidence in a person of no realization and preferring not to rock the boat, returns to his flock and leads them on a path of Adharma rather than make a sincere effort to establish what is and is not the truth of the Veda. Now multiply this by tens of thousands and you have some idea of the problem we must overcome to re-establish the Sanatana Dharma. > > So to answer your question, No! we cannot give in to compromise. No! we cannot continue the current Nirayana practices and Yes!, we must insist on the method laid down in the Veda if we are to have any meaningful reform of the Calendar. > > > > As for the names of the temples in India that have embraced the beginnings of Calendar reform, you will find them listed on my website http://www.vediccosmology.com. > > In the service of truth, > > RE Wilkinson > > > > > > -- > > > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release 2/23/2009 7:17 AM > > > > > > -- ---------- > > > > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 2/23/2009 7:17 AM > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 The high sounding words are recited "even by the tribal" BECAUSE OF, and not IN SPITE OF those like Sankara. They are the ones who educated those. That is the whole point. Moreover, if those are already being "recited" by "tribals" then where is the question of taking them out of reach? But as you said, there is no point speaking to those whose intentions are... Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjyawaves-vedic ; yeshu2004Cc: robtw; vedicscience; atlantavedictemple; deenbc; jyotirved; harimalla; ; Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:30:18 AM Fw: Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter Shiv umesh rathenamji,Namaste,It appears that you have difficulty in grasping that there is a difference between recitation and comprehension. Adi Sankaracharya has not asked anybody not to pray to God. If Adi Sankaracharya' s teachings are beyond your comprehension you can leave it. I am sure you are not in this forum simply to condemn the Indian seers and the Indian philosophy but to understand them. It appears that you have formed your opinion already. Do as you feel proper for you. BTW do you know Sanskrit and have you read any of Adi Sankaracharya' s work in Sanskrit?--- On Tue, 3/3/09, yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 > wrote:yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 >Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya @Tuesday, March 3, 2009, 8:02 AMNameste Sunilji The high sounding Samskrit words 'dvaita', 'vishistadvaita' , and 'advaita' have been easily recited even by illiterate tribes who call their God supreme and look upon their god as one invisible or the one visible in matter. The high sounding samskrit word 'paramatma' is a supreme god of a tribal. What is known is made complicated by Sankara and what is practised by all in every part of the world is made unknown by Sankara and others and thereby prohibiting non-Brahmins to know about the Brahmin Samskrit mantra. It has all emanated from mythology and legends. It is high time Sunilji realized the truth and turn to the real God Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Lord Buddha on the contrary told the brahmins to try to understand the true meaning of the Vedas. Lord Buddha quoted from Veda to tell Bimbisara that Vedas did not sanction animal sacrifice. One full chapter of Dhammapada is devoted to brahmin. In fact Lord Buddha said that he would take his next birth in a brahmin family. Dr. Ambedkar's statements are not in consonance with what Lord Buddha said. If you want to contradict Lord Buddha I have no problem but I respect Lord Buddha and I ignore the ones who contradict what Lord Buddha said. You must read about the arguments between Mahatma Gabdhi, the Champion of the the Harijans and Dr. Ambedkar on these issues.Many people think that Dr. Ambedkar hated Hinduism and the brahmins. On the contrary he married a brahmin lady and he remained Hindu till the very end of his life. He got converted to Buddhism only some days before his death. I understand from other members you had a lot of discussions earlier in this forum before my joining it. Still if you really want to know about Hinduism please do not belligerant as no teacher likes a belligerant student. --- On Wed, 3/4/09, yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 wrote:yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter"Vedic Temple" <atlantavedictempleCc: "Sunil Bhattacharjya" <sunil_bhattacharjya, waves-vedic , robtw, vedicscience, deenbc, jyotirved, harimalla, , Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 8:07 PMIt is only after reading Satyarth Prakash, a learned scholar like Dr. Ambedkar has given the following message: I am giving below Dr. B.R.Ambedkar’s views on the Vedas representing the sanatana dharma: “Now the Brahmins have left no room for doubt, for they have propounded a most mischievous dogma which the Brahmins have spread among the masses, is the dogma of the infallibility of the Vedas. If the Hindu intellect has ceased to grow and if the Hindu civilization and culture has become a stagnant and stinking pool, this dogma must be destroyed root and branch if India is to progress. The Vedas are a worthless set of books. There is no reason either to call them sacred or infallible. The Brahmins have invested it with sanctity and infallibility only because by a later interpolation of what is called the Purusha – Sukta, the Vedas have made them the lords of the Earth. Nobody has had the courage to ask why these worthless books which contain nothing but invocation to tribal gods to destroy the enemies, loot their property and give it to their followers(have been made sacred and infallible). But the time has come when the Hindu mind must be freed from the hold which the silly ideas propagated by the Brahmins, are on them. Without this liberation India has no future. I have undertaken this task knowing full well what risk it involves. I am not afraid of consequences. I shall be happy if I succeed in stirring the masses.†Dr. Ambedkar Vedic Temple <atlantavedictempleyeshu rathenam <yeshu2004Cc: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya; waves-vedic ; robtw; vedicscience; deenbc; jyotirved; harimalla; ; Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:43:01 AMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter Namastey, Read Styarth Prakash here, to clear some of the confusion. http://www.satyavid ya.org/downloads /cat_view/ 48-satyarth- prakash Also, the link below may be helpful in getting the questions answered. http://www.satyavid ya.org/must- read Thanks On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:10 AM, yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 > wrote: A careful reading of Hindu literature will reveal that the Puranas, the Vedas, the Ramayana and Mahabharata sanctioned idolatry, polytheism, caste, burning of widows and many other abominations. Indians, at the time of the arrival of the British, had three hundred and thirty millions of gods.. In the Vedas also we see the beginning of natural worship, similar to all tribes in other parts of the world. Nature-worship is the worship of natural objects without any conscious attempt to personalize them. Thus when a river such as the Nile or Ganges was worshipped, it was not the god of the river who received veneration but the ‘divine water’ itself. Later such objects were specifically deified giving rise to polytheism.. But we are being brainwashed for centuries to believe that the Vedas are the ultimate authoritative scripture for one to pursue the spiritual path to realize God. Badrayana has reinterpreted the Vedas after heavily borrowing ideas from Buddhism and Christianity But a casual reading of the Rig Veda will reveal to us that there are large portions in it which have hardly any connection with religion at all, but they are interesting all the same as relics of antiquity. As for example, this line from Rig Veda: With bow let us wine kine, with Bow the battle, with Bow be victors in our hot encounters.†So it a cry for battle to win cows and enemy by using the bow. In original Sanskrit, the Rig Veda does not have poetic verses. But the European translators have followed poetic rules and arranged the primitive Rig Veda by following rhyme and rhythm of English poetry.They have also coined their own words and phrases to give a poetic style to the primitive Rig Veda .. The Mahabharata, like all primitive epics of the world, is mythical in nature. Originally, the Mahabharata was a popular ballad about the war between the Kurus and the Pandus. Kunti, a daughter of the Yadava clan, was carried away by a barbarian named Pandu and the five Pandava brothers were born of this illegitimate connection. The mythical origin of the five Pandava brothers and the story of the birth of Dhritarashtra and Pandu prove illegitimacy. Repeated indoctrination by Brahmin fanatics has made us to worship the characters in this mythology, as we idealize Shakespearean characters like Hamlet or Juliet. In the battlefield the first thing to do after elaborate preparation the previous day is to attack the enemy.. But here there is a twist and Arjuna is made to ask what is right and wrong, and Krishna is made to use the battlefront to teach him karma, jnana and bhakti. It is clear proof that it an interpolation at a later date. Sankara has reinterpreted Bhagavad-Gita by incorporating into it the essence of Christianity and Buddhism. Sankara was born 800 years after the birth of Jesus. So the Bhagavad-Gita is Sankara’s teaching and not Krishna’s.. In Greek mythology, Zeus is the father of gods and men, and most powerful of the immortals. He was worshipped as the sky-deity, whose presence was marked by lightning, thunder and rain. Greeks worshipped these mythological gods and goddesses for centuries. Even great intellectuals like Socrates, Plato and Aristotle worshipped these mythological gods and goddesses as we worship gods and goddesses of Indian mythology. The Greeks had experienced miracles in battles, thereby showing the power of the devil.. Once the Greeks found the real God they discarded the gods and goddesses of their mythology. It is indeed a lesson for us. S.U..Rathenam - shiv umesh rathenam -- (yeshu ratnenam) Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>waves-vedicCc: yeshu2004 ; robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com; vedicscience@ rediffmail. com; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) .com; harimalla@rocketmai l.com; ; ancient_indian_ astrologyMonday, March 2, 2009 6:11:24 AMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter Your name is Yaeshu Ruthenam and you claim to come from a Hindu priestly family. Did you by any chance adopt this name after convesion to Christianity? You have not given any evidence from history to prove that the Mahabharata is a mythology. Mahabhara ta, being an epic, has stories to convey the Vedic truths to the masses through the medium of stories but it is also an Itihasa or History and the scholars can find the historical information from that. It seems that you do not know the meaning of Itihasa. You have only made false assertions that The mahabharata is all mythology and want to get away with that without giving any concrete reference. As you do not know the difference between assertion and concrete evidence it is not worth pursuing any discussion with you. The festival on December 25, in Constantine's own religion prior to his adopting Christianity for political reasons, was to celebrate the birth of the Sun on the day following the Winter Solstice on December 24 of that year. He made it compulsory to observe that day as the Christmas day in order to glorify Jesus Christ, even though Jesus Christ was not born on December. So you are not aware of the importance given to Winter Solstice in the West in the ancient times. --- On Fri, 2/27/09, yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 > wrote: yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 >Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya @Friday, February 27, 2009, 11:42 PM I too come from a Hindu priestly class. But I am an egalitarian. I have already given enough evidences from history to prove the Mahabharata is a mythology. About your question about Christmas, I am to state the following: While gods and goddesses of legends and mythology are assumed to be real, how can you call historic and real god Jesus a myth? December 25 was celebrated as the birthday of Jesus by his family, disciples and the first Church -- the Jerusalem Church.. December 25 was observed the birthday of Jesus in all the churches in Asia Minor. It was only later Christianity was taken to the West by Paul. The West was totally hostile to Christianity which spread the message of love, peace and kindness. The early Christians were persecuted in Rome. Several thousands of Christians were killed by the Roman Emperors. But in 312 when Emperor Constantine was fighting in Gaul, he had to face a powerful army. His travel-weary soldiers were not having courage and strength to meet the challenge of a far larger force ranging back from the city walls from a bend in the Tiber. Fear gripped the Emperor. It was at that time he saw a great light in the sky in the form of a cross, bearing the inscription Hoc signo vinces (In this sign you will conquer). In the battle Constantine won a miraculous victory. Later Constantine became a Christian. Christianity – the persecuted and hated religion --- became the official religion of Rome. December 25 was officially proclaimed the birth date of Jesus after ascertaining from the early church in Jerusalem. But in Rome it coincided with the pagan festival of Solinvictus. That is why this confusion arose. Since Christianity encourages free thought and criticism, unlike Hinduism and Islam, this coincidence of date has been fully exploited by atheists and secular humanists. They even deny the holocaust which happened in the 20th. Century. Will they spare Christmas of the First century? Long before we heard about Moscow, New Delhi, London, Washington and Beijing, King David had founded Jerusalem as capital of Israel. But even today, in the 21st century, Jerusalem is still in the news. Bethlehem where Jesus was born is a hot spot today.. The future of the world will be decided in Jerusalem. Whether it is Putin or Obama, the fate of the world hinges on the decision the world powers will be making on Jerusalem. These events were predicted by Jesus 2000 years ago, and they are happening today, including the economic crises and the nations of the world converging on Jerusalem before the launch of III World War. So Jesus is not a myth but a living God, according to Christians. Let us see how world events unfold according to the prediction of Jesus. Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 >Friday, February 27, 2009 2:35:35 PMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter Namaste Ruthenamji, Please give supporting data with concrete references and not just your imaginative assertions, which have no value at all. I am a Hindu. Can you please let know your religious affiliation too. However if you have any reservation in telling that please let me know and also let me know how much you know about your own scriptures, before dabbling in others'. In your last letter you were talking vehemently about Winter Solstice. In that connection I asked to find out why December 25 was chosen as the Christmas day. Now you seem to be evading that completely. What type of scholarship is this? Reputed western scholars do not do like this. --- On Fri, 2/27/09, yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 > wrote: yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 >Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya @..com, waves-vedic, "Robert E. Wilkinson" <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>Cc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.com, robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com, , ancient_indian_ astrologyFriday, February 27, 2009, 12:20 AM Namaste Bhattacharjyaji ... Although tradition holds that an ancient sage called Vyasa wrote the Mahabharata, it was almost certainly composed by a number of different poets and then collected into a single work sometime between 300 B.C. and A.D. 350. The epic reached its present form about 200 years later. It contains nearly 100,000 verses and is divided into 18 sections called parvans. It consists of many legends and tales revolving around the conflicts between two branches of a mythical family. The stories involve deities, demigods, and heroes. Some people foolishly argue that these legends contain elements of cosmology, philosophy, and religious doctrine Cosmology is a set of ideas about the origin, history, and structure of the universe, and the imaginary claim of Aurobindo and others borders on insanity. They foolishly claim without any scientific evidence that the Mahabharata belongs to the Dvapar Yuga. Cosmology proves that the Ramayana is much older than the Mahabharata. It does not go beyond the Vindhyas. However, in the case of the Mahabharata, the whole of India was known and the rulers from the south also came to participate in the Mahabharata war. Paninini mentions Vasudeve, Arjuna and Yudhisthira. The Pandavas are not known to the Brhamanas. It is clear from these facts that Vyasa alone did not write the Mahaabharata. It is also quite evident from these facts that the Mahabharata is based on mythology and its heroes and heroines are not historical figures. A section of the epic called the Bhagavad Gita is the most important religious text of Hinduism. But it was introduced at a later stage by the Gupta rulers to thwart the growing tide of Buddhism. It was interwoven by borrowing ideas from Buddhism and Christianity to give the Mahabharata the image of a religious text. There were Greek satrapies in India before Kanishka came to power. There were Indian ambassadors in the courts of Roman Emperors Augustus, Trajan, Hadrian, Constantine , Julian and Justinian. There was a flourishing Indian population permanently settled in Alexandria . The first Gupta ruler, Chandra Gupta I came to power in 319 A.D. But 300 years before the Guptas came to power, St.Thomas was in the court of Gondopharnes, and from the northwest, Thomas spread the message of Jesus to many in the northern region and finally came to Mylapore and Kerala. Although, the Mahabharata is a war literature, the religious part in the epic was later appended by the Gupta kings by heavily borrowing from Christianity and Buddhism. Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>waves-vedicCc: yeshu2004 ; vedicscience@ rediffmail. com; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com; harimalla@rocketmai l.com; robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com; ; ancient_indian_ astrologyThursday, February 26, 2009 10:00:59 AM[WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter Sorry Ruthenamji, There is a typo... Please read the sentence "Hindus believe in one God but respecting the superiors are looked down upon by them." as "Hindus believe in one God but respecting the superiors are not looked down upon by them." Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Wed, 2/25/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> Re: Fw: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matterwaves-vedicCc: yeshu2004 , vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.com, robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com, , ancient_indian_ astrologyWednesday, February 25, 2009, 8:09 PM Dear Shri Ruthenamji, You wrote : Quote The Veda, the Mahabharata war and all Sanskrit literature were brought to light by European scholars. It is cnfirmed that the Mahabharata war was a sheer myth. Unquote I know that European scholars translated the Veda and the Epics into English as they valued these and they wanted their own people to read them and that was a favour to themselves. Indians had these in Sanskrit as well as in their vernacular languages.1)Do you know that till the year 1882 the King James version of the Bible gave the year of creation as 4004 BCE, whereas the Indian texts, which you are condemning without any substantiation, gave the age of the earth as several billion years, which is the same as what the modern science says.?2)Do you know yourself as to why and from when the Christmas began to be celebrated on December 25 when Jesus Christ himself was born on an earlier month and his year of birth is also on 4 BCE? You should know it first before you say anything about the Winter Solstice. Can you substantiate your statement that the Mahabharata war was a myth and that no such war took place at all? The Indians know how to interpret their ancient texts. The Puranas and Epics are historical texts called Itihasas, interspersed with stories and anecdotes in order to give out the Vedic truths to the masses, through them. You also said : Quote Similarly, the Vedas written by primitive people and like all primitive societies they pray to god for food, health and victory in the war. Unquote The gods in Hinduism, Buddhism (like Tara, amd Manjushri) and Jainism are like the angels of the Semitic religion. Hindus believe that they are superior beings and they are also created by God and that they are at a higher evolutionary step than we are. The Quran also did not say that one should not seek favour from the angels. Even prophet Muhammad was complaining to the Archangel Gabriel about the latter's coming late..... to him. Hindus believe in one God but respecting the superiors are looked down upon by them. May be you do not know how to respect your superiors.. The Vedas cannot be understood by everybody and you are one of them. However if you wish to learn these then you have to go to a guru with due respect and he will teach you provided he finds you worthy of that. As regards Wilkinsonji' s mail I have replied to that in a separate mail.. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Wed, 2/25/09, yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 > wrote:yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 >Fw: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya @, waves04@ .comCc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, "atlanta vedic" <atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com>, "hinc liz" <hinducivilization>, deenbc (AT) hotmail (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.comWednesday, February 25, 2009, 6:38 PM----- Forwarded Message ----yeshu rathenam <yeshu2004 >Robert E... Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:02:06 AMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter"\the March Equinox - Cosmic Dawn; the June Solstice - Cosmic Midnight; the September Equinox - Cosmic Sunset; and last but best of all, the December Solstice - Cosmic Midday or Uttarayana, the highest position of the Sun whereby as a single Ray (the lost Sun hidden by Vritra) it descends to the Earth casting no shadows" It is all nonsense that you are writing. The Veda, the Mahabharata war and all Sanskrit literature were brought to light by European scholars. It is cnfirmed that the Mahabharata war was a sheer myth. Then how can you try to fix the date? Similarly, the Vedas written by primitive people and like all primitive societies they pray to god for food, health and victory in the war. It is sheer madness to claim philosophy and science in the primittive works.Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>sunil_bhattacharjya @; waves-vedicCc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com; hinducivilization; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com; harimalla@rocketmai l.comWednesday, February 25, 2009 9:01:08 PMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharj- ji Thank you for your reply. If you would be so kind, please provide me with the exact citation where Sri Aurobindo discusses the date of the Mahabharata war. The root of your error is plainly evident. When you write that, “…for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi†, you are basing your conclusions on the Nirayana Sidereal system of calendar measure with its irregular Constellations and shifting ayanamsha. This is not only unreliable and confusing but worst of all it is un-Vedic. It directly contradicts the verses in the Rig Veda that describe “One wheel of three-hundred and sixty spokes, firmly riveted, that shake not in the least.†This ‘One Wheel’ is the eternal and unchanging Tropical zodiac or Sayana system used by the Rishis to precisely measure the Earth in its yearly passage around the ecliptic as well as a corresponding movement in the individual. The errors of the Nirayana system, to which you evidently , arose with the hegemony ofscientific relativism into the realm of the sacred when the astronomer usurped the role of the sage and seer and proclaimed objective astronomical measurement to be the final authority in calendar matters. All that you have written to support your contention that there is no meaningful connection between Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn Solstice and Uttarayana, the northward journey of Sun is, in the final analysis, a direct contradiction of the Dharma. Open your mind and listen to the words of the world’s leading Seer and Vedic Cosmologist on these important matters: “…We speak glibly of a SANTANA Dharma, the 'eternal' Law. But what sort of eternal law, and consequent stability, can a shifting calendar provide the Hindu Samaj? The FLOATING AYANAMSHAS in vogue today, which bear no sanction in the Veda, are anything but stable and constant. Each second that passes of our Earth time causes that distant sidereal point light-years away to change position, thereby making that Ayanamsha with each passing second inoperable and inapplicable for any ritual. If the pundit is sincere to his trade, he must know this. He must know that yesterday's Ayanamsha cannot be held today as valid because IT HAS SHIFTED IN THE HEAVENS, perhaps slightly, but shifted it has. Today it is not where it was yesterday. And if we add to this the complete impossibility to determine just where and what that Ayanamsha might be, then we understand why there is total confusion among the ranks of the pundits. And Hinduism suffers an increasingdeterioration accordingly, with each ritual that propagates this illusion. Absolutism of the eternal Dharma lies within our grasp if we take the same Journey the Veda pre-scribes, poised on the immutable four Cardinal Points: the March Equinox - Cosmic Dawn; the June Solstice - Cosmic Midnight; the September Equinox - Cosmic Sunset; and last but best of all, the December Solstice - Cosmic Midday or Uttarayana, the highest position of the Sun whereby as a single Ray (the lost Sun hidden by Vritra) it descends to the Earth casting no shadows. And therefore it is known as the period of Victory for the Aryan Warrior; or, in the larger cycles of time, as the Golden Age, the Satya Yuga. We need to understand the 'seed' nature of the Makar Sankranti and how it can be said that this is an experience of both the Earth, the individual and of the collective Hindu Samaj, all simultaneously on that very special Solstice.. This is understood when we realise that Time itself is compressed to a seed at the De-cember Solstice. The 'shortest day of the year' has no other factual significance for inhabitants of our special planet than this: compression to a point, compaction to a seed. The light of the Sun, those divine Cows/Rays, is compressed to this point-experience of Time when its measure reaches the extremes of itself [the Solstice or SHORTEST day of the year]. And then when the [Makar] Sankranti is observed with the right 'combination' - the right harmony of the Earth to the Ecliptic - the entire Hindu Samaj connects itself through this 'seed-point' to the replenishing Source from which it originally sprang. Today as in aeons gone by,it can drink once again of the waters the Goddess Mahasaraswati benignly releases abroad upon the world. “Thea†Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, THE MAKAR SANKRANTI - Winter Solstice RE Wilkinson- Sunil Bhattacharjya waves-vedic Cc: robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com ; vedicscience@ rediffmail. com ; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com ; hinducivilization ; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com ; harimalla@rocketmai l.com Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:54 PMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important MatterNamaste R....E.Wilkinsonji, Namaste, You wrote as follows: Quote What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to grasp the underlying truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are completely incorrect.unquote On the contrary you have not understood the difference between the significance of Makara Sankranti and that of Uttarayana. You have referred to Sri Aurobindo. Starting from the day when Lele taught him how to meditate he did advance to high level of thought. But all that Sri Aurobindo said are not to be taken blindly. He said that the Mahabharata war took place in 1190 BCE and we now know that he was wrong from the archaeological evidence itself as the river Saraswati dried up much before 1190 BCE and that at the time of the Mahabharata war it was flowing and Balarama's going to the Saraswati is mentioned in the Mahabharata. . You have quoted from the Rig Veda. Agreed that Brahmanaspati (Brihaspati) did make the knowledge appear (or known) that the certain eternal worlds came into being, which open their doors with moons ( bright and dark fortnights) and autumns (seasons) and that these (the eternal worlds) move effortlessly from one to another, but it did not link up the Makar Rashi with any season. In the Chapter 8 of the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna describes the path by which the yogi, who has known the Brahman departs. Lord Krishna also describes the path by which the yogi, who is disciplined but has not realised Brahman, goes. Other sources such as the Chandogya Upanishad, Baudhayana smriti, Shiva gita and Kurma purana give details of these aspects but nowhere they have linked up Makar Sankranti with Uttarayana. Different ancient texts, composed at different time periods, mention a particular season occurring at different Nakshatras which shows that the seasonsare not tied to the Nakshatras and as the Winter season starts with the Uttarayana so also the Uttarayana should also be not linked to any Nakshatra or Rashi. Makar Sankramana is about Sankramana of the Makar rashi. As I said before that for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi. If you have any doubt abiout the real meaning of rashi, please go to my last mail. Let the truth prevail. It is not late for the astrologers, who did not know this, to correct themselves and recognise that Winter Solstice need not be linked up with the Makar Sankramana. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 2/24/09, Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com> wrote:Robert E.... Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya @Cc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, HinduCalendar, hinducivilization, waves-vedic, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.comTuesday, February 24, 2009, 9:16 AM Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharjya- ji What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to grasp the underlying truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are completely incorrect. These are matters of Veda, obtained through Shruti as you mentioned. But in order to secure a higher understanding of these important matters we must go back to the Vedic scriptures themselves. As a matter of curiosity, How many of you on this study group have even read Sri Aurobindo’s “Secret of the Veda� If this group is truly about Vedic Studies, we must get serious about it and go directly to the source. That said, there is no better authority on the Veda than Sri Aurobindo. He has plainly stated that the Vedas are the oldest extant spiritual scriptures on earth. Its name, “Veda†- the Knowledge, is the received name for the highest spiritual truth of which the human mind is capable. Over the millennia however this high knowledge became lost or corrupted. “As the Veda had passed from the sage to the priest, wrote Sri Aurobindo, so now it began to pass from the hands of the priest into the hands of the scholar. And in that keeping it suffered the last mutilation of its sense and the last diminution of its true dignity and sanctity.†What we are seeing today on WAVES is a continuation of that mutilation and diminution…not through scholars, but through self-important pseudo-scholars like Yeshu Rathenam who are given free rein to post comments that the Veda are a “worthless set of books. This has to stop! Among the many secrets of the Veda given by the ancient sages, are precise instructions, yogic techniques, the goal of which is to help us ascend beyond our mortal mentality to the luminous truth of our being on the spiritual plane of our existence. The Rishis are quite plain spoken on this account. The secret of secrets, the greatest mystery of the Veda is a supremely enlightened state “Swar†which results from a perfect alignment of the individual with the twelve months of the sacrificial year. "Certain eternal worlds are these which have come into being, their doors are shut to you (or opened) by the months and the years. Without effort one world moves in the other, and it is these that Brihaspati has made manifest to knowledge" Rig Veda (II.24.5) These secret eternal worlds have been closed to us by our misperception of the movement of time. The months and the years, therefore have to be re-discovered and created in us by that same power. This, says the Rishi, is the mightiest work, the fairest achievement and it hinges on the conquest of time. “The Vedic idea was that the subconscient darkness and the ordinary life of ignorance held concealed in it all that belongs to the divine life and that these secret riches must be recovered first by destroying the impenitent powers of ignorance and then by possessing the lower life subjected to the higher.†Sri Aurobindo, Secret of the Veda (p. 238) What we are interested in writes Sri Aurobindo, is the process by which one is able to release the soul’s light and come to know and live the higher stages of the journey and in so doing, developing ‘the unity of the nine-rayed and the ten-rayed seers who by the utter thought of the soul, by the word that illumines broke open the fortified pens ...' This then is the Vedic sacrifice: ‘ a journey; indeed the sacrifice itself is described as travelling, as journeying to a divine goal; and the journey and the sacrifice are continually spoken of as a battle against the dark powers.' Ibid, (p. 183) '. .... . the possession of our complete divine consciousness delivered from all falsehood by the free descent of the truth, gives us the secure possession of the world of Swar and the enjoyment of mental and physical being lifted into the godhead above the darkness, falsehood and death by the in-streaming of our divine elements. This victory is won in twelve periods of the upward journey, represented by the revolution of the twelve months of the sacrificial year, the periods corresponding to the successive dawns of a wider and wider truth, until the tenth secures the victory. What may be the precise significance of the nine rays and the ten, is a more difficult question which we are not yet in a position to solve*. But the light we have already is sufficient to illuminate all the main imagery of the Rig Veda..' Ibid (p. 182) In his Secret of the Veda, Sri Aurobindo described these worlds of Swar as “Godheads†but it was not until the cosmological discoveries made by “Thea†Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet that these symbols, Vedic “godheads†of “the nine rays and the ten†were revealed to be synonymous with and referring to the 9th and 10th months of the cosmic year: Sagittarius and Capricorn. And, according to the Rishi, it is in the Tenth Month (CAPRICORN) that the final Victory is achieved. It is for this reason and none other that the Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn Gateway, is the most important ritual date in the Hindu Calendar. Perhaps you will now understand why it is so important that the true Makar Sankranti (Winter Solstice) be observed on 21 December and not 14 January. In the service of Truth, RE Wilkinson - Sunil Bhattacharjya Robert E. Wilkinson Monday, February 23, 2009 7:47 PMRe: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important MatterDear Robert E. wilkinsonji, Namaste, The astrologers like AKK show concern at Makar Sankranti being observed about three weeks after the Winter Solstice but they never care to know what is the true meaning of the Makar Sankranti. Makar is the Makar rashi and Sankranti means the act of Sankraman or intrusion. So Makar Sankranti has to when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. AKK and others never care to know why Makar Rashi is considered important. Shravana nakshatra is in the Makar rashi and this is Nakshatra ruled by Shri Hari. Shravana and Shruti has the same origin and Shruti is the Veda. Shravana is considered asthe Nakshatra of the Veda-Mata Saraswati. Before Abhijit Nakshatra, whose ruler is Brahmaa, moved away to become the Pole-star, Abhijit used to be a Nakshatra in the makar rashi. Appropriately Makar rashi was called the Brahma rashi in the Mahabharata. Astrologically also the Makar Rashi is considered to be Rashi of Bharatvarsha. Thus the Makar Rashi has a unique position andthe Sun's entry into the Makar Rashi is an important event. Thus the Makar Sankranti has been and will be observed when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. Now it is also true that at one time the Winter Solstice did take place in the Makar Rashi for close to twenty two centuries. Even the latitudinal line at the point of the Winter Solstice had begun to be called as the Makar Rekha or the Tropic of Capricorn and this was appropriate only as long as the Wlnter Solstice occurred in the true Makar Rashi. So AKK and others think that Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice are synonymous, forgetting that this can only happen only for close to twenty two centuries at a time and then wait for close to twenty four Millennia for that to reoccur. This is not to say that the Winter Solstice has no importance. The Tropical Calendar cannot do without the recognising the Winter Solstice. So the Tropical calendar has to learn to coexist with the Sidereal calendar. If those who want to observe the Winter Solstice as the Uttarayana day can observe it by all means. So let us have one additional festivalday on the Uttarayana day for those who want to onserve that rather than trying to annul the Makar Sankranti festival on the day when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com> wrote:Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya @, harimalla@rocketmai l.comCc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, HinduCalendar, hinducivilization, waves-vedic, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) comMonday, February 23, 2009, 7:55 AMNamaste Hari Mala-ji,Thank you for your response and the interesting information about the Makar. You bring up some interesting points in your letter which I feel the need to address in some detail. Let me begin with your request that those of us interested in Calendar Reform do this through a "concerted effort and if possible without changing any of the current practices and by not insisting on any particular method. It is your belief that this would be the best type of reform and acceptable to most". I am sure you have the best of intentions but your reply reveals exactly what is WRONG with the general attitude surrounding these important matters. Let me explain: First, it is virtually impossible to reform the calendar through a concerted effort given the wide gaps in understanding evidenced by these discussions on WAVES.. I agree with you that Dr. Arya is worthy of praise but, in my opinion, the scholarship of Krishen Kaul and Yeshu Rathenam does not rise to that level. Nevertheless you would prefer that we find an inclusive solution, without changing the current practices and acceptable to most. In other words you would be comfortable with some kind of compromise that doesn’t rock the boat. You are evidently unaware that when it comes to matters of Higher Truth and the cosmological absolutes that the Veda prescribes, compromise is simply not an option. What is required is credible LEADERSHIP that can expose the fallacious logic that so often passes for wisdom on this discussion group. What I find simply unbelievable is that many of the members of WAVES, people who supposedly have some knowledge of the Veda,accept the pretentious posturing of AKK as gospel while virtually ignoring the authoritative statements of Veda masters like Sri Aurobindo, “Thea†Patrizia-Norelli- Bachelet and Swami Dayananda Saraswati. No discrimination is made between the opinions of scholars and the direct knowledge of the sage. Naturally this results in an environment of mass confusion out of which true Calendar Reform cannot emerge. And what is the result? One of the esteemed leaders of a Vedic Temple in the US reads what I have written on calendar reform and, not being a Sanskritist or Jyotish scholar himself, he writes and asks AKK to set him straight out of his vast experience and knowledge. Here is someone who holds a position of trust and leadership in the religious community, responsible for the spiritual guidance of others, and he has no understanding of these important matters. I have written him on several occasions to ask for a fair hearing but, because of his faith in AKK, I have not received even the courtesy of a reply. So this man, having placed his confidence in a person of no realization and preferring not to rock the boat, returns to his flock and leads them on a path of Adharma rather than make a sincere effort to establish what is and is not the truth of the Veda. Now multiply this by tens of thousands and you have some idea of the problem we must overcome tore-establish the Sanatana Dharma. So to answer your question, No! we cannot give in to compromise. No! we cannot continue the current Nirayana practices and Yes!, we must insist on the method laid down in the Veda if we are to have any meaningful reform of the Calendar. As for the names of the temples in India that have embraced the beginnings of Calendar reform, you will find them listed on my website http://www.vediccos mology.com. In the service of truth, RE Wilkinson Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date: 2/23/2009 7:17 AMChecked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release 2/23/2009 7:17 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Dear Friend, There can be issues where we cannot entirely depend on the wisdom of some of the past stalwarts, because either they do not know that particular subject or have no interest. For example, I said earlier that though Sri Auribindo was a vastly learned man he did not get the date of the Mahabharata war right. So one has to remain vigilant as the Mother in Pondicherry advised us.SKB--- On Wed, 3/4/09, vavamenon <vavamenon wrote:vavamenon <vavamenonRe: [WAVES-Vedic] Re: [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya, vedic_research_institute , "Robert E. Wilkinson" <robtwCc: waves-vedic , vedicscience, atlantavedictemple, deenbc, jyotirved, harimalla, , Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 10:01 PMSirs, Namasthe and Greetings ! I too had exchanged few points in Hindu Calendar forum. I tend to agree with Shri Robertsonji that the Universal Consciousness (the Unified Field which Maharshi Mahesh Yogi and His Disciples so beautifully and scientifically explained) that we call Ishwar and the CREATION /CREATED UNIVERSE of which all of us are DIVINE parts can be experimented, realised and experienced at individual levels and Vedic Scriptures / Literatures are only one of the tools that assist one in getting connected to that UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS. If one is a true seeker of TRUTH, one would be able to understand the lectures of of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, apart from those of Dr. John Hagelin (Nuclear Physicist) and Dr. Tony Nader (the German Doctor Disciple of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi - and author of "Human Physiology) who so beautifully and without ambiguity explain this Unified Field. A person of book knowledge can only discuss dry intelligence and not with the transcendental connections that one's ATMA has with the PARAMATMA. And until this relation / connection (ADWAITHAM) is discovered, one would always be at war with himself and all others around. With best regards, vm --- On Wed, 3/4/09, Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw wrote: Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw[WAVES-Vedic] Re: [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Mattersunil_bhattacharjya, vedic_research_institute Cc: waves-vedic , vedicscience, atlantavedictemple, deenbc, jyotirved, harimalla, , Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 6:19 PM  Namaste Sunil-ji If nothing else, your debates with Krishen Kaul and Yeshu Rathenam should provide you with an excellent example of what CONSCIOUSNESS brings to the discussion. This is especially true in matters of Veda where Consciousness is precisely the point. I have discussed this issue on WAVES before but in case you missed it, here it is yet again: Almost no one today is aware of these discoveries because the realization of these eternal truths requires more than just a scholarly, intellectual knowledge of the Veda. Sri Aurobindo explains: “The perfect truth of the Veda, where it is now hidden, can only be recovered by the same means by which it was originally possessed. Revelation and experience are the doors of the Spirit. It cannot be attained either by logical reasoning or by scholastic investigation… [sanskrit text]…‘Not by explanation of texts nor by much learning’, ‘not by logic is this realisation attainable.’ Logical reasoning and scholastic research can only be aids useful for confirming to the intellect what has already been acquired by revelation and spiritual experience. This limitation, this necessity are the inexorable results of the very nature of Veda.†Sri Aurobindo – The Life Divine Part and parcel of this Vedic realization is the profound relationship between the Cosmic Order and the symbols of its manifestation upon the earth. This knowledge is found in every Vedic temple which, if properly built, is a symbolic reconstruction of the universe, binding together the world of the Gods and man. What you must eventually come to appreciate is that one’s understanding of these Important Matters and therefore their interpretation of them is necessarily limited to the plane of consciousness which conditions what they see and believe. Most of the discussion you will see on WAVES is limited to the Mental plane which is characterized by theoretical scholastic discussion full of argument about words, forms and the interpretations of the works of others, which are, for the Mental Man, more important than anything else. When one is limited to that plane and its range of comprehension one naturally infers that everyone else is bound by the same limitations so any counter argument to one’s position is interpreted simply as a relative “Opinion†or an “adamant assertion†rather than knowledge. However, when one rises in consciousness through the Lived Yogic Experience and the “revelation†that it brings, one moves beyond the realm of relative mental belief into the real and demonstrable knowledge that the Veda extols. Perhaps you can understand that for AKK, the Rashies are simply a mental “concept†to be endlessly debated and you have to admit that he relishes the argument and has great fun being such an authoritative proponent of his position. He brandishes his conclusions with such confidence that many, who have not bothered to explore these matters for themselves, believe every word he says. But, for someone who has actually lived the universal experience of the Zodiacal archetypes or “Godheads†as they have also been described, the Rashis are as real and personal as it gets. And to hear someone like AKK denying their reality is like hearing a fish denying the existence of water. One soon learns the utter folly of debating the issue with someone of such limited experience. RE Wilkinson - Sunil Bhattacharjya vedic_research_ institute Cc: waves-vedic ; robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com ; vedicscience@ rediffmail. com ; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com ; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com ; harimalla@rocketmai l.com ; ; ancient_indian_ astrology Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:45 PM Re: [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Dear Sunil ji,//One full chapter of Dhammapada is devoted to brahmin. In fact Lord Buddha said that he would take his next birth in a brahmin family.//Yes, you are correct..one full chapter of Dhammapada is devoted to Brahmins. But Buddha spoke of Brahmins by action and not Brahmins by birth. Let me quote a few beautiful verses from this particular chapter, which would carry this message.//Whoever does no wrong in body, speech, heart,is restrained in these three ways: he's what I call a brahman. Not by matted hair,by clan, or by birth,is one a brahman.Whoever has truth & rectitude: he is a pure one, he, a brahman. He endures — unangered —insult, assault, & imprisonment.His army is strength;his strength, forbearance: he's what I call a brahman. Uncontaminatedby householders & houseless ones alike;living with no home,with next to no wants: he's what I call a brahman. He who has nothing — in front, behind, in between —the one with nothingwho clings to no thing: he's what I call a brahman.-// DhammapadaSunil ji, this is the first time I ever heard that Buddha said that he would take his next birth in a brahmin family. He did not have a next birth and his long and tiresome journey was over in that birth. The sole purpose of attaining Buddhahood was to end the cycle of births, the cause of all sufferings and teach the same to others.According to Majjhima Sutta No. 123, as soon as the Bodhisatta was born, he took seven steps to the North and declared his position in the world with these words: // Aggo ' ham asmi lokassa – I am the chief in the world. Jetto ' ham asmi lokassa – I am the highest in the world. Setto ' ham asmi lokassa – I am the noblest in the world. Ayam antima jati – This is my last birth. Natthi dani punabbhavo – There is no more becoming for me.//These were his first words in his last birth. I hope I am clear enough.blessings,Renu , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Lord Buddha on the contrary told the brahmins to try to understand the true meaning of the Vedas. Lord Buddha quoted from Veda to tell Bimbisara that Vedas did not sanction animal sacrifice. One full chapter of Dhammapada is devoted to brahmin. In fact Lord Buddha said that he would take his next birth in a brahmin family. Dr. Ambedkar's statements are not in consonance with what Lord Buddha said. If you want to contradict Lord Buddha I have no problem but I respect Lord Buddha and I ignore the ones who contradict what Lord Buddha said. You must read about the arguments between Mahatma Gabdhi, the Champion of the the Harijans and Dr. Ambedkar on these issues.> > Many people think that Dr. Ambedkar hated Hinduism and the brahmins. On the contrary he married a brahmin lady and he remained Hindu till the very end of his life. He got converted to Buddhism only some days before his death.> > I understand from other members you had a lot of discussions earlier in this forum before my joining it. Still if you really want to know about Hinduism please do not belligerant as no teacher likes a belligerant student.> > > > --- On Wed, 3/4/09, yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 wrote:> yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter> "Vedic Temple" atlantavedictemple Cc: "Sunil Bhattacharjya" sunil_bhattacharjya, waves-vedic , robtw, vedicscience, deenbc, jyotirved, harimalla, , > Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 8:07 PM> > It is only after reading Satyarth Prakash, a learned scholar like Dr. Ambedkar has given the following message:> > > I am giving below Dr. B.R.Ambedkar’s views on the Vedas representing the sanatana dharma: “Now the Brahmins have left no room for doubt, for they have propounded a most mischievous dogma which the Brahmins have spread among the masses, is the dogma of the infallibility of the Vedas. If the Hindu intellect has ceased to grow and if the Hindu civilization and culture has become a stagnant and stinking pool, this dogma must be destroyed root and branch if India is to progress. The Vedas are a worthless set of books. There is no reason either to call them sacred or infallible. The Brahmins have invested it with sanctity and infallibility only because by a later interpolation of what is called the Purusha â€" Sukta, the Vedas have made them the lords of the Earth. Nobody has had the courage to ask why these worthless books which contain nothing but invocation to tribal gods to destroy the enemies, loot their property and give it to their followers(have> been made sacred and infallible).  > But the time has come when the Hindu mind must be freed from the hold which the silly ideas propagated by the Brahmins, are on them. Without this liberation India has no future. I have undertaken this task knowing full well what risk it involves. I am not afraid of consequences. I shall be happy if I succeed in stirring the masses.†Dr. Ambedkar> > > > > Vedic Temple atlantavedictemple yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:43:01 AM> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter> > > Namastey,>  > Read Styarth Prakash here, to clear some of the confusion.>  > http://www.satyavid ya.org/downloads /cat_view/ 48-satyarth- prakash >  > Also, the link below may be helpful in getting the questions answered.>  > http://www.satyavid ya.org/must- read >  >  > Thanks> > >  > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:10 AM, yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 > wrote:> > > > > > A careful reading of Hindu literature will reveal that the Puranas, the Vedas, the Ramayana and Mahabharata sanctioned idolatry, polytheism, caste, burning of widows and many other abominations. Indians, at the time of the arrival of the British, had three hundred and thirty millions of gods.. In the Vedas also we see the beginning of natural worship, similar to all tribes in other parts of the world. Nature-worship is the worship of natural objects without any conscious attempt to personalize them. Thus when a river such as the Nile or Ganges was worshipped, it was not the god of the river who received veneration but the ‘divine water’ itself. Later such objects were specifically deified giving rise to polytheism.. But we are being brainwashed for centuries to believe that the Vedas are the ultimate authoritative scripture for one to pursue the spiritual path to realize God. Badrayana has reinterpreted the Vedas after heavily borrowing ideas from> Buddhism and Christianity But a casual reading of the Rig Veda will reveal to us that there are large portions in it which have hardly any connection with religion at all, but they are interesting all the same as relics of antiquity. As for example, this line from Rig Veda:> With bow let us wine kine, with Bow the battle, with Bow be victors in our hot encounters.â€>  So it a cry for battle to win cows and enemy by using the bow. In original Sanskrit, the Rig Veda does not have poetic verses. But the European translators have followed poetic rules and arranged the primitive Rig Veda by following rhyme and rhythm of English poetry.They have also coined their own words and phrases to give a poetic style to the primitive Rig Veda>  > . The Mahabharata, like all primitive epics of the world, is mythical in nature.  Originally, the Mahabharata was a popular ballad about the war between the Kurus and the Pandus. Kunti, a daughter of the Yadava clan, was carried away by a barbarian named Pandu and the five Pandava brothers were born of this illegitimate connection. The mythical origin of the five Pandava brothers and the story of the birth of Dhritarashtra and Pandu prove illegitimacy. Repeated indoctrination by Brahmin fanatics has made us to worship the characters in this mythology, as we idealize Shakespearean characters like Hamlet or Juliet. In the battlefield the first thing to do after elaborate preparation the previous day is to attack the enemy.. But here there is a twist and Arjuna is made to ask what is right and wrong, and Krishna is made to use the battlefront to teach him karma, jnana and bhakti.>  It is clear proof that it an interpolation at a later date. Sankara has reinterpreted Bhagavad-Gita by incorporating into it the essence of Christianity and Buddhism. Sankara was born 800 years after the birth of Jesus. So the Bhagavad-Gita is Sankara’s teaching and not Krishna’s.. In Greek mythology, Zeus is the father of gods and men, and most powerful of the immortals. He was worshipped as the sky-deity, whose presence was marked by lightning, thunder and rain. Greeks worshipped these mythological gods and goddesses for centuries. Even great intellectuals like Socrates, Plato and Aristotle worshipped these mythological gods and goddesses as we worship gods and goddesses of Indian mythology. The Greeks had experienced miracles in battles, thereby showing the power of the devil.. Once the Greeks found the real God they discarded the gods and goddesses of their mythology. It is indeed a lesson for us.> S.U..Rathenam - shiv umesh rathenam -- (yeshu ratnenam)> > > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>> waves-vedic> Cc: yeshu2004 ; robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com; vedicscience@ rediffmail. com; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) .com; harimalla@rocketmai l.com; ; ancient_indian_ astrology> Monday, March 2, 2009 6:11:24 AM> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter> > > > > > > > > > Your name is Yaeshu Ruthenam and you claim to come from a Hindu priestly family. Did you by any chance adopt this name after convesion to Christianity? >  > You have not given any evidence from history to prove that the Mahabharata is a mythology. Mahabhara ta, being an epic, has stories to convey the Vedic truths to the masses through the medium of stories but it is also an Itihasa or History and the scholars can find the historical information from that. It seems that you do not know the meaning of Itihasa. You have only made false assertions that The mahabharata is all mythology and want to get away with that without giving any concrete reference. As you do not know the difference between assertion and concrete evidence it is not worth pursuing any discussion with you.>  > The festival on December 25, in Constantine's own religion prior to his adopting Christianity for political reasons,  was to celebrate the birth of the Sun on the day following the Winter Solstice on December 24 of that year. He made it compulsory to observe that day as the Christmas day in order to glorify Jesus Christ, even though Jesus Christ was not born on December. So you are not aware of the importance given to Winter Solstice in the West in the ancient times.>  >  >  >  >  > > --- On Fri, 2/27/09, yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 > wrote:> > yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter> sunil_bhattacharjya @> Friday, February 27, 2009, 11:42 PM> > > > > I too come from a Hindu priestly class. But I am an egalitarian. I have already given enough evidences from history to prove the Mahabharata is a mythology. About your question about Christmas, I am to state the following:> > > While gods and goddesses of legends and mythology are assumed to be real, how can you call historic and real god Jesus a myth? December 25 was celebrated as the birthday of Jesus by his family, disciples and the first Church -- the Jerusalem Church..  December 25 was observed the birthday of Jesus in all the churches in Asia Minor. It was only later Christianity was taken to the West by Paul. The West was totally hostile to Christianity which spread the message of love, peace and kindness. The early Christians were persecuted in Rome. Several thousands of Christians were killed by the Roman Emperors. But in 312 when Emperor Constantine was> fighting in Gaul, he had to face a powerful army. His travel-weary soldiers were not having courage and strength to meet the challenge of a far larger force ranging back from the city walls from a bend in the Tiber. Fear gripped the Emperor. It was at that time he saw a great light in the sky in the form of a cross, bearing the inscription Hoc signo vinces (In this sign you will conquer). In the battle Constantine won a miraculous victory. Later Constantine became a Christian. Christianity â€" the persecuted and hated religion --- became the official> religion of Rome. December 25 was officially proclaimed the birth date of Jesus after ascertaining from the early church in Jerusalem.  But in Rome it coincided with the pagan festival of Solinvictus. That is why this confusion arose. Since Christianity encourages free thought and criticism, unlike Hinduism and Islam, this coincidence of date has been fully exploited by atheists and secular humanists. They even deny the holocaust which happened in the 20th. Century. Will they spare Christmas of the First century?>  > Long before we heard about Moscow, New Delhi, London, Washington and Beijing, King David had founded Jerusalem as capital of Israel. But even today, in the 21st century, Jerusalem is still in the news.> Bethlehem where Jesus was born is a hot spot today.. The future of the world will be decided in Jerusalem. Whether it is Putin or Obama, the fate of the world hinges on the decision the world powers will be  making  on Jerusalem. These events were predicted by Jesus 2000 years ago, and they are happening today, including the economic crises and the nations of the world converging on Jerusalem before the launch of III World War. So Jesus is not a myth but a living God, according to Christians. Let us see how world events unfold according to the prediction of Jesus.>  >  > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>> yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 >> Friday, February 27, 2009 2:35:35 PM> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter> > > > > > > Namaste Ruthenamji,>  > Please give supporting data with concrete references and not just your imaginative assertions, which have no value at all. I am a Hindu. Can you please let know your religious affiliation too. However if you have any reservation in telling that please let me know  and also let me know how much you know about your own scriptures, before dabbling in others'.>  > In your last letter you were talking vehemently about Winter Solstice. In that connection I asked to find out why December 25 was chosen as the Christmas day. Now you seem to be evading that completely. What type of scholarship is this? Reputed western scholars do not do like this.> > --- On Fri, 2/27/09, yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 > wrote:> > yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 >> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter> sunil_bhattacharjya @..com, waves-vedic, "Robert E. Wilkinson" robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>> Cc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.com, robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com, , ancient_indian_ astrology> Friday, February 27, 2009,> 12:20 AM> > > > > Namaste Bhattacharjyaji> > > ..>  Although tradition holds that an ancient sage called Vyasa wrote the Mahabharata, it was almost certainly composed by a number of different poets and then collected into a single work sometime between 300 B.C. and A.D. 350. The epic reached its present form about 200 years later. It contains nearly 100,000 verses and is divided into 18 sections called parvans. It consists of many legends and tales revolving around the conflicts between two branches of a mythical family. The stories involve deities, demigods, and heroes. Some people foolishly argue that these legends contain elements of cosmology, philosophy, and religious doctrine Cosmology is a set of ideas about the origin, history, and> structure of the universe, and the imaginary claim of Aurobindo and others borders on insanity. They foolishly claim without any scientific evidence that the Mahabharata belongs to the Dvapar Yuga. Cosmology proves that the Ramayana is much older than the Mahabharata. It does not go beyond the Vindhyas. However, in the case of the Mahabharata, the whole of India was known and the rulers from the south also came to participate in the Mahabharata war. Paninini mentions Vasudeve, Arjuna and Yudhisthira. The Pandavas are not known to the Brhamanas. It is clear from these facts that Vyasa alone did not write the Mahaabharata. It is also quite evident from these facts that the Mahabharata is based on mythology and its heroes and heroines are not historical figures.> >  > >  > A section of the epic called the Bhagavad Gita is the most important religious text of Hinduism. But it was introduced at a later stage by the Gupta rulers to thwart the growing tide of Buddhism. It was interwoven by borrowing ideas from Buddhism and Christianity to give the Mahabharata the image of a religious text. There were Greek satrapies in India before Kanishka came to power. There were Indian ambassadors in the courts of Roman Emperors Augustus, Trajan, Hadrian, Constantine , Julian and Justinian. There was a flourishing Indian population permanently settled in Alexandria . The first Gupta ruler, Chandra Gupta I came to power in 319 A.D. But 300 years before the Guptas came to power, St.Thomas was in the court of Gondopharnes, and from the northwest, Thomas spread the message of Jesus to many in the northern region and finally came to Mylapore and Kerala. Although, the Mahabharata is a> war literature, the religious part in the epic was later appended by the Gupta kings by heavily borrowing from Christianity and Buddhism.>  >  > > > > > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>> waves-vedic> Cc: yeshu2004 ; vedicscience@ rediffmail. com; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com; harimalla@rocketmai l.com; robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com; ; ancient_indian_ astrology> Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:00:59 AM> [WAVES-Vedic] An Important Matter> > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry Ruthenamji,>  > There is a typo...>  > Please read the sentence "Hindus believe in one God but respecting the superiors are looked down upon by them." as "Hindus believe in one God but respecting the superiors are not looked down upon by them.">  > Regards,>  > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @> wrote:> > Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya @>> Re: Fw: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> waves-vedic> Cc: yeshu2004 , vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.com, robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com, , ancient_indian_ astrology> Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 8:09 PM> > > > > Dear Shri Ruthenamji,>  > You wrote :>  > Quote>  > The Veda, the Mahabharata war and all Sanskrit literature were brought to light by European scholars. It is cnfirmed that the Mahabharata war was a sheer myth.>  > Unquote>  > I know that European scholars translated the Veda and the Epics into English  as they valued these and they wanted their own people to read them and that was a favour to themselves. Indians had these in Sanskrit as well as in their vernacular languages.> 1)> Do you know that till the year 1882 the King James version of the Bible gave the year of creation as 4004 BCE, whereas the Indian texts, which you are condemning without any substantiation, gave the age of the earth as several billion years, which is the same as what the modern science says.?> 2)> Do you know yourself as to why and from when the Christmas began to be celebrated> on  December 25 when Jesus Christ himself was born on an earlier month  and his year of birth is also on 4 BCE? You should know it first before you say anything about the Winter Solstice.>  > Can you substantiate your statement that the Mahabharata war was a myth and that no such war took place at all? The Indians know how to interpret their ancient texts. The Puranas and Epics are historical texts called Itihasas, interspersed with stories and anecdotes in order to give out the Vedic truths to the masses, through them. >  > You also said :>  > Quote>  > Similarly, the Vedas written by primitive people and like all primitive societies they pray to god for food, health and victory in the war.>  > Unquote>  > The gods in Hinduism, Buddhism (like Tara, amd Manjushri) and Jainism are like the angels of the Semitic religion. Hindus believe that they are> superior beings and they are also created by God and that they are at a higher evolutionary step than we are. The Quran also did not say that one should not seek favour from the angels. Even prophet Muhammad was complaining to the Archangel Gabriel about the latter's coming late..... to him. Hindus believe in one God but respecting the superiors are looked down upon by them. May be you do not know how to respect your superiors.. >  > The Vedas cannot be understood by everybody and you are one of them. However if you wish to learn these then you have to go to a guru with due respect and he will teach you provided he finds you worthy of that.>  > As regards Wilkinsonji' s mail I have replied to that in a separate mail.. >  > Regards,>  > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > --- On Wed, 2/25/09, yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 > wrote:> > yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 >> Fw: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> sunil_bhattacharjya @, waves04@ .com> Cc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, "atlanta vedic" <atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com>, "hinc liz"> <hinducivilization>, deenbc (AT) hotmail (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.com> Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 6:38 PM> > ----- Forwarded Message ----> yeshu rathenam yeshu2004 >> Robert E... Wilkinson robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:02:06 AM> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important> Matter> > "\the March Equinox - Cosmic Dawn; the June Solstice - Cosmic Midnight; the September Equinox - Cosmic Sunset; and last but best of all, the December Solstice - Cosmic Midday or Uttarayana, the highest position of the Sun whereby as a single Ray (the lost Sun hidden by Vritra) it descends to the Earth casting no shadows" It is all nonsense that you are writing. The Veda, the Mahabharata war and all Sanskrit literature were brought to light by European scholars. It is cnfirmed that the Mahabharata war was a sheer myth. Then how can you try to fix the date? Similarly, the Vedas written by primitive people and like all primitive societies they pray to god for food, health and victory in the war. It is sheer madness to claim philosophy and science in the primittive works.> > Robert E. Wilkinson robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>> sunil_bhattacharjya @; waves-vedic> Cc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com; hinducivilization; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com; harimalla@rocketmai l.com> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:01:08 PM> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> > > > Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharj- ji>  > Thank you for your reply. If you would be so kind, please provide me with the exact citation where Sri Aurobindo discusses the date of the Mahabharata war.>  >  > The root of your error is plainly evident. When you write that, “…for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi†, you are basing your conclusions on the Nirayana Sidereal system of calendar measure with its irregular Constellations> and shifting ayanamsha. This is not only unreliable and confusing but worst of all it is un-Vedic. It directly contradicts the verses in the Rig Veda that describe “One wheel of three-hundred and sixty spokes, firmly riveted, that shake not in the least.†This ‘One Wheel’ is the eternal and unchanging Tropical zodiac or Sayana system used by the Rishis to precisely measure the Earth in its yearly passage around the ecliptic as well as a corresponding movement in the individual. The errors of the Nirayana system, to which you evidently , arose with the hegemony of> scientific relativism into the realm of the sacred when the astronomer usurped the role of the sage and seer and proclaimed objective astronomical measurement to be the final authority in calendar matters.>    > All that you have written to support your contention that there is no meaningful connection between Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn> Solstice and Uttarayana, the northward journey of Sun is, in the final analysis, a direct contradiction of the Dharma. Open your mind and listen to the words of the world’s leading Seer and Vedic Cosmologist on these important matters:>  > “…We speak glibly of a SANTANA Dharma, the 'eternal' Law. But what sort of eternal law, and consequent stability, can a shifting calendar provide the Hindu Samaj? The FLOATING AYANAMSHAS in vogue today, which bear no sanction in the Veda, are anything but stable and constant. Each second that passes of our Earth time causes that distant sidereal point light-years away to change position, thereby making that Ayanamsha with each passing second inoperable and inapplicable for any ritual. If the pundit is sincere to his trade, he must know this. He must know that yesterday's Ayanamsha cannot be held today as valid because IT HAS SHIFTED IN THE HEAVENS, perhaps slightly, but shifted it has. Today it is not> where it was yesterday. And if we add to this the complete impossibility to determine just where and what that Ayanamsha might be, then we understand why there is total confusion among the ranks of the pundits. And Hinduism suffers an increasing> deterioration accordingly, with each ritual that propagates this illusion.>  >  Absolutism of the eternal Dharma lies within our grasp if we take the same Journey the Veda pre-scribes, poised on the immutable four Cardinal Points: the March Equinox - Cosmic Dawn; the June Solstice - Cosmic Midnight; the September Equinox - Cosmic Sunset; and last but best of all, the December Solstice - Cosmic Midday or Uttarayana, the highest position of the Sun whereby as a single Ray (the lost Sun hidden by Vritra) it descends to the Earth casting no shadows. And therefore it is known as the period of Victory for the Aryan Warrior; or, in the larger cycles of time, as the Golden Age, the Satya> Yuga.>    We need to understand the 'seed' nature of the Makar Sankranti and how it can be said that this is an experience of both the Earth, the individual and of the collective Hindu Samaj, all simultaneously on that very special Solstice.. This is understood when we realise that Time itself is compressed to a seed at the De-cember Solstice. The 'shortest day of the year' has no other factual significance for inhabitants of our special planet than this: compression to a point, compaction to a seed. The light of the Sun, those divine Cows/Rays, is compressed to this point-experience of Time when its measure reaches the extremes of itself [the Solstice or SHORTEST day of the year]. And then when the [Makar] Sankranti is observed with the right 'combination' - the right harmony of the Earth to the Ecliptic - the entire Hindu Samaj connects itself through this 'seed-point' to the replenishing Source from which it originally sprang. Today> as in aeons gone by,> it can drink once again of the waters the Goddess Mahasaraswati benignly releases abroad upon the world. “Thea†Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, THE MAKAR SANKRANTI - Winter Solstice  >  > RE Wilkinson> > -> Sunil Bhattacharjya> waves-vedic> Cc: robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com ; vedicscience@ rediffmail. com ; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com ; hinducivilization ; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com ; harimalla@rocketmai l.com> Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:54 PM> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> > Namaste R....E.Wilkinsonji,>  > Namaste,>  > You wrote as follows:>  > Quote>  > What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to grasp the underlying> truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are completely incorrect.> > unquote>  > On the contrary you have not understood the difference between the significance of Makara Sankranti and that of Uttarayana. You have referred to Sri Aurobindo. Starting from the day when Lele taught him how to meditate he did advance to high level of thought. But all that Sri Aurobindo said are not to be taken blindly. He said that the Mahabharata war took place in 1190 BCE and we now know that he was wrong from the archaeological evidence itself as the river Saraswati dried up much before 1190 BCE and that at the time of the Mahabharata war it was flowing and Balarama's going to the Saraswati is mentioned in the Mahabharata. .>  > You have quoted from the Rig Veda. Agreed that Brahmanaspati> (Brihaspati) did make the knowledge appear (or known) that the certain eternal worlds came into being, which open their doors with moons ( bright and dark fortnights) and autumns (seasons) and that these (the eternal worlds) move effortlessly from one to another, but it did not link up the Makar Rashi with any season. In the Chapter 8 of the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna describes the path by which the yogi, who has known the Brahman departs. Lord Krishna also describes the path by which the yogi, who is disciplined but has not realised Brahman, goes. Other sources such as the Chandogya Upanishad, Baudhayana smriti, Shiva gita and  Kurma purana give details of these aspects but nowhere they have linked up Makar Sankranti with Uttarayana. Different ancient texts, composed at different time periods,  mention a particular season occurring at different Nakshatras which shows that the seasons> are not tied to the> Nakshatras and as the Winter season starts with the Uttarayana so also the Uttarayana should also be not linked to any Nakshatra or Rashi. Makar Sankramana is about Sankramana of the Makar rashi.  As I said before that for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi. If you have any doubt abiout the real meaning of rashi, please go to my last mail.>  > Let the truth prevail. It is not late for the astrologers, who did not know this, to correct themselves and recognise that Winter Solstice need not be linked up with the Makar Sankramana.>  > Regards,>  > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya>  >  >  > --- On Tue, 2/24/09, Robert E. Wilkinson robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com> wrote:> > Robert E.... Wilkinson robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE:> Fwd: An Important Matter> sunil_bhattacharjya @> Cc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, HinduCalendar, hinducivilization, waves-vedic, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com, harimalla@rocketmai l.com> Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 9:16 AM> > > > Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharjya- ji>  > What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to grasp the underlying truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are completely incorrect. These are matters of Veda, obtained through Shruti as you mentioned. But in order to secure a higher> understanding of these important matters we must go back to the Vedic scriptures themselves.> > As a matter of curiosity, How many of you on this study group have even read Sri Aurobindo’s  “Secret of the Vedaâ€? If this group is truly about Vedic Studies, we must get serious about it and go directly to the source.  That said, there is no better authority on the Veda than Sri Aurobindo. He has plainly stated that the Vedas are the oldest extant spiritual scriptures on earth. Its name, “Veda†- the Knowledge, is the received name for the highest spiritual truth of which the human mind is capable. Over the millennia however this high knowledge became lost or corrupted. “As the Veda had passed from the sage to the priest, wrote Sri Aurobindo, so now it began to pass from the hands of the priest into the hands of the scholar. And in that keeping it suffered the last mutilation of its sense and the last diminution of its> true dignity and sanctity.†What we are seeing today on WAVES is a continuation of that mutilation and diminution…> not through scholars, but through self-important pseudo-scholars like Yeshu Rathenam who are given free rein to post comments that the Veda are a “worthless set of books. This has to stop!> >  > > Among the many secrets of the Veda given by the ancient sages, are precise instructions, yogic techniques, the goal of which is to help us ascend beyond our mortal mentality to the luminous truth of our being on the spiritual plane of our existence. The Rishis are quite plain spoken on this account. The secret of secrets, the greatest mystery of the Veda is a supremely enlightened state “Swar†which results from a perfect alignment of the individual with the twelve months of the sacrificial year.  > >  > > "Certain eternal worlds are these which have come into being, their doors are shut to you (or> opened) by the months and the years. Without effort one world moves in the other, and it is these that Brihaspati has made manifest to knowledge" Rig Veda  (II.24.5)> >  > > These secret eternal worlds have been closed to us by our misperception of the movement of time. The months and the years, therefore have to be re-discovered and created in us by that same power. This, says the Rishi, is the mightiest work, the fairest achievement and it hinges on the conquest of time.> >  > > “The Vedic idea was that the subconscient darkness and the ordinary life of ignorance held concealed in it all that belongs to the divine life and that these secret riches must be recovered first by destroying the impenitent powers of ignorance and then by possessing the lower life subjected to the higher.†Sri Aurobindo, Secret of the Veda (p. 238)> >  > > What we are interested in writes Sri Aurobindo, is the> process by which one is able to release the soul’s light and come to know and live the higher stages of the journey and in so doing, developing ‘the unity of the nine-rayed and the ten-rayed seers who by the utter thought of the soul, by the word that illumines broke open the fortified pens ...' This then is the Vedic sacrifice: ‘ a journey; indeed the sacrifice itself is described as travelling, as journeying to a divine goal; and the journey and the sacrifice are continually spoken of as a battle against the dark powers.' Ibid, (p. 183)> >  > >  '. .... . the possession of our complete divine consciousness delivered from all falsehood by the free descent of the truth, gives us the secure possession of the world of Swar and the enjoyment of mental and physical being lifted into the godhead above the darkness, falsehood and death by the in-streaming of our divine elements. This victory is won in twelve> periods of the upward journey, represented by the revolution of the twelve months of the sacrificial year, the periods corresponding to the successive dawns of a wider and wider truth, until the tenth secures the victory. What may be the precise significance of the nine rays and the ten, is a more difficult question which we are not yet in a position to solve*. But the light we have already is sufficient to illuminate all the main imagery of the Rig Veda..' Ibid (p. 182)> >  > > In his Secret of the Veda, Sri Aurobindo described these worlds of Swar as “Godheads†but it was not until the cosmological discoveries made by “Thea†Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet that these symbols, Vedic “godheads†of “the nine rays and the ten†were revealed to be synonymous with and referring to the 9th and 10th months of the cosmic year: Sagittarius and Capricorn. And, according to the Rishi, it is in the Tenth Month (CAPRICORN) that the final> Victory is achieved. It is for this reason and none other that the Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn Gateway, is the most important ritual date in the Hindu Calendar. Perhaps you will now understand why it is so important that the true Makar Sankranti (Winter Solstice) be observed on 21 December and not 14 January.> >  > > In the service of Truth,> >  > > RE Wilkinson> > -> Sunil Bhattacharjya> Robert E. Wilkinson> Monday, February 23, 2009 7:47 PM> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> > Dear Robert E. wilkinsonji,>  > Namaste,>  > The astrologers like AKK show concern at Makar Sankranti being observed about three weeks after the Winter Solstice but they never care to know what is the true meaning of the Makar Sankranti. Makar is the Makar rashi and Sankranti means the act of Sankraman or intrusion. So Makar Sankranti> has to when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi. AKK and others never care to know why Makar Rashi is considered important. Shravana nakshatra is in the Makar rashi and this is Nakshatra ruled by Shri Hari. Shravana and Shruti has the same origin and Shruti is the Veda. Shravana is considered asthe Nakshatra of the Veda-Mata Saraswati. Before Abhijit Nakshatra, whose ruler is Brahmaa, moved away to become the Pole-star, Abhijit used to be a Nakshatra in the makar rashi. Appropriately Makar rashi was called the Brahma rashi in the Mahabharata.  Astrologically also the Makar Rashi is considered to be Rashi of Bharatvarsha. Thus the Makar Rashi has a unique position and> the Sun's entry into the Makar Rashi is an important event. Thus the Makar Sankranti has been and will be observed when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi.>  > Now it is also true that at one time the Winter Solstice did take place in the Makar> Rashi for close to twenty two centuries. Even the latitudinal line at the point of the Winter Solstice had begun to be called as the Makar Rekha or the Tropic of Capricorn and this was appropriate only as long as the Wlnter Solstice occurred in the true Makar Rashi. So AKK and others think that Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice are synonymous, forgetting that this can only happen only for close to twenty two centuries at a time and then wait for close to twenty four Millennia for that to reoccur. This is not to say that the Winter Solstice has no importance. The Tropical Calendar cannot do without the recognising the Winter Solstice. So the Tropical calendar has to learn to coexist with the Sidereal calendar. If those who want to observe the Winter Solstice as the Uttarayana day can observe it by all means. So let us have one additional festival> day on> the Uttarayana day for those who want to onserve that rather than trying to annul the Makar Sankranti festival on the day when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi.>  > Regards,>  > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya>  >  >  > > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Robert E. Wilkinson robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com> wrote:> > Robert E. Wilkinson robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com>> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> sunil_bhattacharjya @, harimalla@rocketmai l.com> Cc: vedicscience@ rediffmail. com, atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com, HinduCalendar, hinducivilization, waves-vedic, deenbc , jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> Monday, February 23, 2009, 7:55 AM> > Namaste Hari> Mala-ji,> Thank you for your response and the interesting information about the Makar.> > You bring up some interesting points in your letter which I feel the need to address in some detail. Let me begin with your request that those of us interested in Calendar Reform do this through a "concerted effort and if possible without changing any of the current practices and by not insisting on any particular method. It is your belief that this would be the best type of reform and acceptable to most".> > I am sure you have the best of intentions but your reply reveals exactly what is WRONG with the general attitude surrounding these important matters. Let me explain:> > First, it is virtually impossible to reform the calendar through a concerted effort given the wide gaps in understanding evidenced by these discussions on WAVES..  I agree with you that Dr. Arya is worthy of praise but, in my opinion, the scholarship of Krishen Kaul and> Yeshu Rathenam does not rise to that level. Nevertheless you would prefer that we find an inclusive solution, without changing the current practices and acceptable to most. In other words you would be comfortable with some kind of compromise that doesn’t rock the boat. You are evidently unaware that when it comes to matters of Higher Truth and the cosmological absolutes that the Veda prescribes, compromise is simply not an option. What is required is credible LEADERSHIP that can expose the fallacious logic that so often passes for wisdom on this discussion group. What I find simply unbelievable is that many of the members of WAVES, people who supposedly have some knowledge of the Veda,> accept the pretentious posturing of AKK as gospel while virtually ignoring the authoritative statements of Veda masters like Sri Aurobindo, “Thea†Patrizia-Norelli- Bachelet and Swami Dayananda Saraswati.  No discrimination is made between the opinions of> scholars and the direct knowledge of the sage. Naturally this results in an environment of mass confusion out of which true Calendar Reform cannot emerge.> > And what is the result? One of the esteemed leaders of a Vedic Temple in the US reads what I have written on calendar reform and, not being a Sanskritist or Jyotish scholar himself, he writes and asks AKK to set him straight out of his vast experience and knowledge. Here is someone who holds a position of trust and leadership in the religious community, responsible for the spiritual guidance of others, and he has no understanding of these important matters. I have written him on several occasions to ask for a fair hearing but, because of his faith in AKK, I have not received even the courtesy of a reply. So this man, having placed his confidence in a person of no realization and preferring not to rock the boat, returns to his flock and leads them on a path of Adharma rather than> make a sincere effort to establish what is and is not the truth of the Veda. Now multiply this by tens of thousands and you have some idea of the problem we must overcome to> re-establish the Sanatana Dharma. > > So to answer your question, No! we cannot give in to compromise. No! we cannot continue the current Nirayana practices and Yes!, we must insist on the method laid down in the Veda if we are to have any meaningful reform of the Calendar.> > As for the names of the temples in India that have embraced the beginnings of Calendar reform, you will find them listed on my website http://www.vediccos mology.com.> > In the service of truth,> > RE Wilkinson> >  > > > Checked by AVG.> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date:> 2/23/2009 7:17 AM> > > Checked by AVG.> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release 2/23/2009 7:17 AM> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Dear Renuji, Namaste, Yes, What the Dhammpada says is the definition of brahmin. Atri Samhita also says "Janmana jaayate Shudra----------------". All are Shudras by birth. One can become brahmin if he has the aptitude and the training to meet what it requires to be a brahmin. It is like everyone is a non-monk but one can become a monk. Yet there are restrictions that one must be healthy and not deseased etc. before one is permitted to be a monk. Further past karma also decides where one is born. If one is born in a particular varna that is due to one's past karma. When Lord Buddha did not allow the untouchable girl to marry Ananda he told her that due the karma of her past birth she came to be born as an untouchable and she has to suffer from the pangs of separation from her beloved. So we have to understand Lord Buddha's teachings in its entirety and not in pieces. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Dear Renuji, Namaste, I was referring to the birth of Maitreya Buddha in a brahmin family. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Dear Group, Namaste, Avtarji wrote Quote If Manu has said that a king must consult soothsayers, why in the name of God can't they quote the exact shloka! UnquoteDid you yourself not say that Manu has condemned people going to the Nakshtrasoochis but did not even give the reference? You did not give the reference because such a sloka is not there at all in Manusmriti. Now you are asking me to quote the exact verse though I sent that reference to you earlier. Avtarji at least once see the Manu Smriti yourself as it repudiates your claim that Astrology was not allowed in the ancient times. Do you also mean to say that as I did not give the exact sloka so Manu did not say that a king must consult astrologer.Manu Smriti. Manu Smriti demolishes your life-long campaign that Hindu sashtras do not permit astrological consultation. If you cannot locate the verse I mentioned in Manu Smriti I shall surely send that. Secondly once you find the sloka kindly admit that you were vigorously propagating a wrong notion that the Hindu-sashtras have advised one not to consult astrology.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Thu, 3/5/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved wrote: Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved[WAVES-Vedic] [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Matterwaves-vedic Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 5:26 AM vedic_research_ institute, "Avtar Krishen Kaul" <jyotirved@. ..> wrote:Dear Group,Namaskar!Some people have an extremely bad habbit of twisting facts in such a manner deliberately so that the other party gets exasperated and leaves in a frustration! For example:1. if "Vedic astrologers" cry from housetops that predictive gimmicks are Vedic, why on earth can't they quote even a single mantra from any of the four Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha that talks of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis or Mangal, Shani etc. planets?2. If Manu has said that a king must consult soothsayers, why in the name of God can't they quote the exact shloka!3. If our ancestors indulged in predictive hotch-potch of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, what were the astronomical works they used for calculating their planetary posiions, since we do not have any such work prior to the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha?4. When all the Indian translators and commentators of Pancha Sidhantika and Aryabhatiti etc. who had no axe to grind have proved in one voice that Varahamihira was a contemporary of Aryabhata in around fifth/sixth century AD, what is preventing these jyotishis of "Satyayuga" from quoting the exact astronomical parameters which contradict the statements of all those translators/ commentators?4. When Maya the mlechha claims that he learnt planetary astronomy vis-a-vis Mesha etc. rashis direct from Sury Bhagwan millions of years back -- in the fag end of Satya Yuga---and not from some Hindu Purvacharya, why cna't these "Vedic astrologers" see through his tricks that he was taking the Hindus for a ride?5. Why can't these "Vedic astrologers" show any astrological work of indigenous origin prior to Sphujidwaja' s Yavanajatakam? Vaahamihira' s Brihat Jatakam is almost a ditto copy of the same!To make a long story short, "Vedic astrologers" are reading the Vedas actually upside down and that is why they are finding Greek Aries, Taurus etc. astrological signs therein instead of Krittika, Rohini, Mrigashira etc. nakshatras-- -of unequal lengths at that!But then that is what tamogunidbudhi is---to see adharma as dharma and vice-versa and as has been proved hundreds of times, predictive gimmicks are against the letter and spirit of the Vedic ethos--but praised highly by Chaldean culture where Delphi was worshipped!And Babylonia (Chaldea) is yesteryears' Iraq!You can draw your own conclusions about the intentions of these imported "Vamadevas" and local "Parasharas" ---to decimate the real Vedic culture by making the Hindus celebrate all their festivals and muhurtas on wrong days---all in the name of "Vedic astrology", whether so called Sayana Vedic or so called Nirayana Vedic!With regards,A K Kaulvedic_research_ institute, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> wrote:>> Dear Robertsonji,> > Namaste,> > Avtarji is trying to shoot at me over your shoulders. He is calling me as your mentor. You must appreciate this joke.> > Anyway at first he said that Rashi is not mentioned in Veda. Now he admits that Vrishbha is indeed mentioned in Veda. Good that at last he learnt that what he has been proclaiming so far was false that Rashi is not mentioned in Veda When you cook rice you dont have to press all the grains to see if all the rice grains are cooked. You can know that by pressing a single grain. Now you know from the above instance alone that Avtarji claims things without knowing the facts. > > One more example. Earlier he thought that there was no mention of astrology in the ancient Indian texts and that the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks. In an earlier mailI I mentioned that the ancient Dharma-sashtra Manu Smriti says that king should consult astrologer. I hope he will gracefully retract his earlier statements in this regard.> > I have already said about the Varahamihira' s mentioning of the Shakanta-kala and its implication in dating of Varahamihira, whom Avtarji calls as the greatest Charlatan, without knowing the true date of Varahamihira. Avtarji owes an open apology to Varahamihira, though posthumously.> > Everybody knows that the Zodiac is an imaginary belt, whether it is The Sideraeal or the Tropical. That the word "Zodiac" is derived from the Greek word "Zodiakos" meaning "a circle of animals" does not prove that the Indians did not know about the twelve rashis. By being verbose and writing big mails Avtarji cannot confuse the knowledgeable people. A knowledgeable person will discover the hollowness in the verbisity from anybody.> > In his mail he mentions about the changing of the shape of the rashi due to the motion of the fixed stars. What can be more preposterous that this statement of his? > > I can go on and on about the misconceptions that Avtarji has but hopre the above examples will suffice. Can you have any guess asto why Avtarji is out to malign Hindu astronomy and astrology?> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> wrote:> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>> [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Matter> vedic_research_ institute@ . com> Monday, March 2, 2009, 10:53 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > WAVES-Vedic, "Avtar Krishen Kaul" > > <jyotirved@ ..> wrote:> > > > Shri Robert E. Wilkinsonji,> > Namaskar!> > Your discussion with Shri Bhattaharjya regarding "An important > > matter" is very confusing though interesting! > > > >--- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 hare rama krishna dear sunil bhattachar jyaji here is proof of astrology was widely practised in india frm the book of Megastanese ,( in his book indica -which prooves it was not a greek contribution or instigatesd by greeks as propogated by evil missionarry avatar krishna kaul -------The whole population of India is divided into seven castes, of which the first is formed by the collective body of the Philosophers, which in point of number is inferior to the other classes, but in point of dignity preeminent over all. For the philosophers, being exempted from all public duties, are neither the masters nor the servants of others. They are, however, engaged by private persons to offer the sacrifices due in lifetime, and to celebrate the obsequies of the dead: for they are believed to be most dear to the gods, and to be the most conversant with matters pertaining to Hades. In requital of such services they receive valuable gifts and privileges. To the people of India at large they also render great benefits, when, gathered together at the beginning of the year, they forewarn the assembled multitudes about droughts and. wet weather, and also about propitious winds, and diseases, and other topics capable of profiting-the hearers. Thus the people and the sovereign, learning beforehand what is to happen, always make adequate provision against a coming deficiency, and never fail to prepare beforehand what will help in a time of need. The philosopher who errs in his predictions incurs no other penalty than obloquy, and he then observes silence for the rest of his life----------------Now he will request quotes and numbers and will strt twisting every thing ,which i hav no time nor inclination nor i am being paid with funded money to spread any false propoganda like kaul ,(Megasthenes From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Megasthenes (ΜεγασθÎνης, ca. 350 BC - 290 BC) was a Greek traveller and geographer. He was born in Asia Minor and became an ambassador of Seleucus I of Syria to the court of Sandrocottus (Chandragupta Maurya) of India, in Pataliputra. However the exact date of his embassy is uncertain. Scholars place it before 288 BC, which was the date of Chandragupta's death. Arrian explains that Megasthenes lived in Arachosia, with the satrap Sibyrtius, from where he visited India: "Megasthenes lived with Sibyrtius, satrap of Arachosia, and often speaks of his visiting Sandracottus, the king of the Indians." Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri [1] We have more definite information regarding the parts of India which Megasthenes visited. He entered the country through the district of the Pentapotamia of the rivers of which he gave a full account (thought to be the five affluents of the Indus, forming the Punjab region), and proceeded from there by the royal road to Pataliputra. There are accounts of Megasthenes having visited Madurai (then, a bustling city and capital of Pandya Kingdom), but appears not to have visited any other parts of India. His observations were recorded in Indika, a work that served as an important source to many later writers such as Strabo and Arrian. He describes such features as the Himalayas and the island of Sri Lanka. He also described India's caste system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megasthenes)regrds sunil nair om shreem mahalaxmai namah , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Group,> > Namaste,> > Avtarji wrote> > Quote> > If Manu has said that a king must consult soothsayers, why in the name of God can't they quote the exact shloka!> > > > > Unquote> > Did you yourself not say that Manu has condemned people going to the Nakshtrasoochis but did not even give the reference? You did not give the reference because such a sloka is not there at all in Manusmriti. Now you are asking me to quote the exact verse though I sent that reference to you earlier. Avtarji at least once see the Manu Smriti yourself as it repudiates your claim that Astrology was not allowed in the ancient times. Do you also mean to say that as I did not give the exact sloka so Manu did not say that a king must consult astrologer.Manu Smriti. Manu Smriti demolishes your life-long campaign that Hindu sashtras do not permit astrological consultation. If you cannot locate the verse I mentioned in Manu Smriti I shall surely send that.> > > > > > > Secondly once you find the sloka kindly admit that you were vigorously propagating a wrong notion that the Hindu-sashtras have advised one not to consult astrology.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > --- On Thu, 3/5/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved wrote:> > Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved [WAVES-Vedic] [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Matter> waves-vedic > Thursday, March 5, 2009, 5:26 AM> > > > > > > vedic_research_ institute, "Avtar Krishen Kaul" jyotirved@ ..> wrote:> > Dear Group,> Namaskar!> Some people have an extremely bad habbit of twisting facts in such a manner deliberately so that the other party gets exasperated and leaves in a frustration! For example:> > 1. if "Vedic astrologers" cry from housetops that predictive gimmicks are Vedic, why on earth can't they quote even a single mantra from any of the four Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha that talks of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis or Mangal, Shani etc. planets?> > 2. If Manu has said that a king must consult soothsayers, why in the name of God can't they quote the exact shloka!> > 3. If our ancestors indulged in predictive hotch-potch of Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis, what were the astronomical works they used for calculating their planetary posiions,> since we do not have any such work prior to the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha?> > 4. When all the Indian translators and commentators of Pancha Sidhantika and Aryabhatiti etc. who had no axe to grind have proved in one voice that Varahamihira was a contemporary of Aryabhata in around fifth/sixth century AD, what is preventing these jyotishis of "Satyayuga" from quoting the exact astronomical parameters which contradict the statements of all those translators/ commentators?> > 4. When Maya the mlechha claims that he learnt planetary astronomy vis-a-vis Mesha etc. rashis direct from Sury Bhagwan millions of years back -- in the fag end of Satya Yuga---and not from some Hindu Purvacharya, why cna't these "Vedic astrologers" see through his tricks that he was taking the Hindus for a ride?> > 5. Why can't these "Vedic astrologers" show any astrological work of indigenous origin prior to Sphujidwaja' s Yavanajatakam? Vaahamihira' s Brihat> Jatakam is almost a ditto copy of the same!> > To make a long story short, "Vedic astrologers" are reading the Vedas> actually upside down and that is why they are finding Greek Aries, Taurus etc. astrological signs therein instead of Krittika, Rohini, Mrigashira etc. nakshatras-- -of unequal lengths at that!> > But then that is what tamogunidbudhi is---to see adharma as dharma and vice-versa and as has been proved hundreds of times, predictive gimmicks are against the letter and spirit of the Vedic ethos--but praised highly by Chaldean culture where Delphi was worshipped!> > And Babylonia (Chaldea) is yesteryears' Iraq!> > You can draw your own conclusions about the intentions of these imported "Vamadevas" and local "Parasharas" ---to decimate the real Vedic culture by making the Hindus celebrate all their festivals and muhurtas on wrong days---all in the name of "Vedic astrology", whether so called Sayana Vedic or so called Nirayana> Vedic!> With regards,> A K Kaul> vedic_research_ institute, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a@> wrote:> >> > Dear Robertsonji,> >> > Namaste,> >> > Avtarji is trying to shoot at me over your shoulders. He is calling me as your mentor. You must appreciate this joke.> >> > Anyway at first he said that Rashi is not mentioned in Veda. Now he admits that Vrishbha is indeed mentioned in Veda. Good that at last he learnt that what he has been proclaiming so far was false that Rashi is not mentioned in Veda When you cook rice you dont have to press all the grains to see if all the rice grains are cooked. You can know that by pressing a single grain. Now you know from the above instance alone that Avtarji claims things without knowing the facts.> > >> > One more example. Earlier he thought that there was no mention of astrology in the ancient Indian texts and that the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks. In an earlier mailI I mentioned that the ancient Dharma-sashtra Manu Smriti says that king should consult astrologer. I hope he will gracefully retract his earlier statements in this regard.> >> > I have already said about the Varahamihira' s mentioning of the Shakanta-kala and its implication in dating of Varahamihira, whom Avtarji calls as the greatest Charlatan, without knowing the true date of Varahamihira. Avtarji owes an open apology to Varahamihira, though posthumously.> >> > Everybody knows that the Zodiac is an imaginary belt, whether it is The Sideraeal or the Tropical. That the word "Zodiac" is derived from the Greek word "Zodiakos" meaning "a circle of animals" does not prove that the Indians did not know about the> twelve rashis. By being verbose and writing big mails Avtarji cannot confuse the knowledgeable people. A knowledgeable person will discover the hollowness in the verbisity from anybody.> >> > In his mail he mentions about the changing of the shape of the rashi due to the motion of the fixed stars. What can be more preposterous that this statement of his?> >> > I can go on and on about the misconceptions that Avtarji has but hopre the above examples will suffice. Can you have any guess asto why Avtarji is out to malign Hindu astronomy and astrology?> >> > Regards,> >> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> >> >> > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> wrote:> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>> > [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Matter> > vedic_research_ institute@> . com> > Monday, March 2, 2009, 10:53 PM> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > WAVES-Vedic, "Avtar Krishen Kaul"> >> > <jyotirved@ ..> wrote:> >> >> >> > Shri Robert E. Wilkinsonji,> >> > Namaskar!> >> > Your discussion with Shri Bhattaharjya regarding "An important> >> > matter" is very confusing though interesting!> >> >> >> >> > --- End forwarded message ---> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Dear Sunil ji, Sorry for the misunderstanding...now I get it. blessings, Renu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Dear Sunil ji, //Further past karma also decides where one is born. If one is born in a particular varna that is due to one's past karma. When Lord Buddha did not allow the untouchable girl to marry Ananda he told her that due the karma of her past birth she came to be born as an untouchable and she has to suffer from the pangs of separation from her beloved.// I agree. You are correct. Let me go a bit further...The incident occurred when Ananda thero went to a well to get some water. This untouchable girl fell in love with the monk, who had attained only the 1st step, 'sothapanna', out of the 4 steps to 'moksha'. Hence he too had all desires. Also the mother of the girl had done a 'bandhana' to get Ananda thero. Naturally Ananda had a 'crush' on this girl. Knowing this Buddha chanted 'Jalanandana Pirith', which would release Ananda from this 'bandhana'. There had been instances where Buddha went in search of untouchables who had good enough karma to attain 'moksha' , and preached dhamma to them. I checked with a learned Buddhist monk in the morning, about the chapter in Dhammapada on Brahmins. Even I was wrong there...in that particular chapter Buddha used the word brahmin to refer to fully exalted persons. But in Vasla Sutra [Discourse on Outcasts] Buddha said, " Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman. " I am happy to know that you are well versed with Buddha's teachings. If interested the link to Vasala Sutra is: http://www.freedharma.com/text/Canon/vasala_sutta/Thera_Piyadassi/1.html blessings, Renu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, I would love to agree with you, but still have some concerns, which needs to be clarified. ===> > 1) It is wrong to say rashis are non-Vedic > This is because the "rashis' are mentioned in the puranas including the Bhagavat purana and the rashis came to be used only towards the end of the Dwapara yuga ie. towards the end of the 4th Millennium BCE. <=== Whether it be NIRAYANA Rashis or Nakshatras we can find support from Vedas or connected literature (whether it be Puranas, Upanishads, Ithihasas or what ever), so we can agree upon the argument that 'Rashis can be Vedic as well', even though the question 'wether the vedic Rashis are Sayana or Nirayana may still roam around for some time (and may get resolved)'. Any way for sure it is clear that Vedic Nakshatras are NIRAYANA in nature and provided with a fixed frame of reference in the vedic past. ==> > 2) It is wrong to say that rashis are imported from Babylonia. > This is because the rashis have been used in India in the 4th Millennium BCE. <== Whether it be NIRAYANA Nakshatras or Rashis, since the NIRAYANA FIXED FRAME WORK was popular even at 4th Millennium BCE in India, it is clear that the Nirayana concept and framework are NOT imported to India from anywhere, but was available here itself. It is thought, argued and proved by many that the Babylonian Rashis are Tropical in nature and does not have the NIRAYANA nature that definitely was there with both the Indian concepts of Rashis and Nakshatras and as well as in the Hipparchus writings which the greeks ignored. (This is a strong pointer to the fact that Hipparchus might have borrowed much from Indian Astrlogia) ==> > 3) Your argument towards Nirayana versus Sayana needs revision too. > > This is because the "Rashi" by definition means a group. You can check that in your favourite Monier-Williams. Rashis are a group of Nakshatras. To the ancient jyotishis the twelve clusters of nakshatras in the ecliptic appeared like different figures. For example, the Vrashabha rashi appeared like a bull. This they did that by imagining some lines joining the nakshatras within the rashi. It is true that an unimaginative person may not be able to visualise the shape or form, but the nakshtras within the rashis are very real. In olden days the jyotishis were not like the arm-chair jyotishis of today. They determined the positions of the grahas and nakshatras through the naked eye. They could tell which graha was in which nakshatra and rashi. Today this system is termed as Nirayana. In olden days the seasons occurred in different rashis at different times due to the precession of the earth. Madhu and Madhava etc. occurred at different nakshatras and rashis at different times. You know that Varahamihira too indicated this. > > Further the western jyotishis concentrated their attention on the Tropical Zodiac system and imagined the fake rashis. (Please refer to the definition of rashi). However the Indian jyotishis did not give up the link between their jyotish and the nakshatras and the true rashis but they gave up observing the grahas and the nakshatras with the naked eye. So they wanted the measure of precessional shift, called "Ayanamsha" to correct the Tropical Zodiac positions of the grahas so that they can relate the corrected graha positions to the positions of the non-moving nakshatras. As the Tropical Zodiac shifts according to precession it is called Sayana (sa= with, ayana= movement) or with processional shift. The non-moving Zodiac, i.e. the original <== May be this 3rd point needs a revision. Of course the initial concept and trend must be of associating Rashi or Naksharas with a "group of stars", especially when the span of Rashis and Nakshatras were UNEQUAL. But this must have ended and got redefined when the mathematical concept of EQUAL span for Nakshatras and Rashis came into place. For example whether it be Leo or Scorpio (th group of stars, i.e. constellation I mean) spans many Rashis (Signs), but the name Leo or Scorpio is applied only to a span of 30 degree only. Same is the case with Nakshatras such as Bharani or Mrigasira. The association of "group of stars" with Bharani, Mrigasira etc can be in existence only till the Nakshatras were unequal and the association of "group of stars" with Leo or Scorpio can be in existence only till the Rasis where unequal. Indian astrology overcome this initial stage in the Vedic past itself as evident from the list of 27 Nakshatras provided by the Vedas and the statements such as "Middle of Aslesha (Nakshatra span)" and "Beginning of Dhanishta (Nakshatra span)" present in Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagatha (dated BC 1400). So as per the MATHAMATICALLY REFINED concept of NIRAYANA Rashis and Nakshatras used in India (ancient and popular in India), "Rashis are no more related to group of stars (constellations) as per Indian astrologia". Love and regards, Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> waves-vedic > Thursday, February 19, 2009, 3:19 PM> > Dear Shri Kaulji,> > Namaste,> > 1) It is wrong to say rashis are non-Vedic> > This is because the "rashis' are mentioned in the puranas including the Bhagavat purana and the rashis came to be used only towards the end of the Dwapara yuga ie. towards the end of the 4th Millennium BCE. I am sure you know that the Valmiki Ramayana of the Treta yuga mentions the position of the Moon in a particular nakshatra at the time of the birth of Lord Rama. But the Adhyatma Ramayana, composed by Vedavyasa in the Dwapara yuga, mentions the position of the Sun in Mesha rashi at the time of Lord Rama's birth. You also know from the Chandogya upanishad that purana is considered to be the fifth Veda. So it is wrong to say that "Rashis" are non-Vedic. You must be aware that reading of this fifth Veda is a prerequisite for reading the four Vedas.> > 2) It is wrong to say that rashis are imported from Babylonia.> > This is because the rashis have been used in India in the 4th Millennium BCE. You date of Varahamihira is also wrong as in Varahamihira's time Saka kala was not there . Sakakala, which Brahmagupta calls Shakanta kala, came at the end of the Shaka rule in 78 CE. Varahamihira mentions Shakendra kala, which was at the beginning of the Shaka rule Therefore my request to you is that kindly revise your Rotary document immediately.> > 3) Your argument towards Nirayana versus Sayana needs revision too.> > This is because the "Rashi" by definition means a group. You can check that in your favourite Monier-Williams. Rashis are a group of Nakshatras. To the ancient jyotishis the twelve clusters of nakshatras in the ecliptic appeared like different figures. For example, the Vrashabha rashi appeared like a bull. This they did that by imagining some lines joining the nakshatras within the rashi. It is true that an unimaginative person may not be able to visualise the shape or form, but the nakshtras within the rashis are very real. In olden days the jyotishis were not like the arm-chair jyotishis of today. They determined the positions of the grahas and nakshatras through the naked eye. They could tell which graha was in which nakshatra and rashi. Today this system is termed as Nirayana. In olden days the seasons occurred in different rashis at different times due to the precession of the earth. Madhu and Madhava etc. occurred at different nakshatras and> rashis at different times. You know that Varahamihira too indicated this.> > Further the western jyotishis concentrated their attention on the Tropical Zodiac system and imagined the fake rashis. (Please refer to the definition of rashi). However the Indian jyotishis did not give up the link between their jyotish and the nakshatras and the true rashis but they gave up observing the grahas and the nakshatras with the naked eye. So they wanted the measure of precessional shift, called "Ayanamsha" to correct the Tropical Zodiac positions of the grahas so that they can relate the corrected graha positions to the positions of the non-moving nakshatras. As the Tropical Zodiac shifts according to precession it is called Sayana (sa= with, ayana= movement) or with precessional shift. The non-moving Zodiac, ie. the original> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Dear All, * Please avoid cross-postings to the maximum and the things happening in other groups there itself. * Please do the cross posting (and the moderators should allow the cross posting) only when those mails contain some unique and worthy info that is much beneficial to the group. * I request Robert Wilkinson ji to give more importance to the communications regarding the very same subject happening in this group itself.Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Robert E. Wilkinson" <robtw wrote:>> Dear Subash Razdan - Moderator of WAVES> > Any legitimate discussion of the Veda must proceed on the basis of a shared desire to unveil what is hidden, to discover the secrets of the ancient Rishis and the consciousness that gave rise to these sublime verses. To continue to indulge the insults and ignorance of Yeshu Rathanam is at the very least counter productive to any sincere process of discovery. PLEASE DO YOUR JOB AS MODERATOR AND BRING SOME DIGNITY BACK TO THIS DISCUSSION. Either remove Yeshu Rathanam from the WAVES group or take my name off the members list.> > Robert E. Wilkinson> > > -> yeshu rathenam> Robert E. Wilkinson ; sunil_bhattacharjya ; vedic_research_institute > Cc: waves-vedic ; vedicscience ; atlantavedictemple ; deenbc ; jyotirved ; harimalla ; ; > Friday, March 06, 2009 2:15 AM> Re: [WAVES-Vedic] Re: [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Matter> > > Namaste ERWji> > It is just to mislead the gullible words such as "Consciousness" and "hidden" are used. There is nothing to be hidden in the Vedas. Like all primitive works, the Veda is open for anybody to read. You read about acrifices, wars, curses - cursing the local Indians, calling them 'mlechhas', 'dasyus', 'chandalas' etc., there are also festive moments when men and women eat beef after sacrificing the cow and dance drinking the intoxicating liquor, soma. The fun of it is they also invite Indra to share beef with them and drink the brew, soma.> > > > > > Robert E. Wilkinson robtw sunil_bhattacharjya; vedic_research_institute > Cc: waves-vedic ; vedicscience; atlantavedictemple; deenbc; jyotirved; harimalla; ; > Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:49:03 PM> [WAVES-Vedic] Re: [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Matter> > > > Namaste Sunil-ji> > > > If nothing else, your debates with Krishen Kaul and Yeshu Rathenam should provide you with an excellent example of what CONSCIOUSNESS brings to the discussion. This is especially true in matters of Veda where Consciousness is precisely the point. I have discussed this issue on WAVES before but in case you missed it, here it is yet again:> > > > Almost no one today is aware of these discoveries because the realization of these eternal truths requires more than just a scholarly, intellectual knowledge of the Veda. Sri Aurobindo explains:> > “The perfect truth of the Veda, where it is now hidden, can only be recovered by the same means by which it was originally possessed. Revelation and experience are the doors of the Spirit. It cannot be attained either by logical reasoning or by scholastic investigation… [sanskrit text]…‘Not by explanation of texts nor by much learning’, ‘not by logic is this realisation attainable.’ Logical reasoning and scholastic research can only be aids useful for confirming to the intellect what has already been acquired by revelation and spiritual experience. This limitation, this necessity are the inexorable results of the very nature of Veda.†Sri Aurobindo â€" The Life Divine> > Part and parcel of this Vedic realization is the profound relationship between the Cosmic Order and the symbols of its manifestation upon the earth. This knowledge is found in every Vedic temple which, if properly built, is a symbolic reconstruction of the universe, binding together the world of the Gods and man.> > > > What you must eventually come to appreciate is that one’s understanding of these Important Matters and therefore their interpretation of them is necessarily limited to the plane of consciousness which conditions what they see and believe. Most of the discussion you will see on WAVES is limited to the Mental plane which is characterized by theoretical scholastic discussion full of argument about words, forms and the interpretations of the works of others, which are, for the Mental Man, more important than anything else. When one is limited to that plane and its range of comprehension one naturally infers that everyone else is bound by the same limitations so any counter argument to one’s position is interpreted simply as a relative “Opinion†or an “adamant assertion†rather than knowledge. However, when one rises in consciousness through the Lived Yogic Experience and the “revelation†that it brings, one moves beyond the realm of relative mental belief into the real and demonstrable knowledge that the Veda extols.> > > > Perhaps you can understand that for AKK, the Rashies are simply a mental “concept†to be endlessly debated and you have to admit that he relishes the argument and has great fun being such an authoritative proponent of his position. He brandishes his conclusions with such confidence that many, who have not bothered to explore these matters for themselves, believe every word he says. But, for someone who has actually lived the universal experience of the Zodiacal archetypes or “Godheads†as they have also been described, the Rashis are as real and personal as it gets. And to hear someone like AKK denying their reality is like hearing a fish denying the existence of water. One soon learns the utter folly of debating the issue with someone of such limited experience.> > > > RE Wilkinson> > -> Sunil Bhattacharjya> vedic_research_ institute> Cc: waves-vedic ; robtw (AT) sprynet (DOT) com ; vedicscience@ rediffmail. com ; atlantavedictemple@ gmail.com ; deenbc ; jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com ; harimalla@rocketmai l.com ; ; ancient_indian_ astrology> Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:45 PM> Re: [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Matter> > > Dear Robertsonji,> > Namaste,> > Avtarji is trying to shoot at me over your shoulders. He is calling me as your mentor. You must appreciate this joke.> > Anyway at first he said that Rashi is not mentioned in Veda. Now he admits that Vrishbha is indeed mentioned in Veda. Good that at last he learnt that what he has been proclaiming so far was false that Rashi is not mentioned in Veda When you cook rice you dont have to press all the grains to see if all the rice grains are cooked. You can know that by pressing a single grain. Now you know from the above instance alone that Avtarji claims things without knowing the facts.> > One more example. Earlier he thought that there was no mention of astrology in the ancient Indian texts and that the Indians learnt astrology from the Greeks. In an earlier mailI I mentioned that the ancient Dharma-sashtra Manu Smriti says that king should consult astrologer. I hope he will gracefully retract his earlier statements in this regard.> > I have already said about the Varahamihira' s mentioning of the Shakanta-kala and its implication in dating of Varahamihira, whom Avtarji calls as the greatest Charlatan, without knowing the true date of Varahamihira. Avtarji owes an open apology to Varahamihira, though posthumously.> > Everybody knows that the Zodiac is an imaginary belt, whether it is The Sideraeal or the Tropical. That the word "Zodiac" is derived from the Greek word "Zodiakos" meaning "a circle of animals" does not prove that the Indians did not know about the twelve rashis. By being verbose and writing big mails Avtarji cannot confuse the knowledgeable people. A knowledgeable person will discover the hollowness in the verbisity from anybody.> > In his mail he mentions about the changing of the shape of the rashi due to the motion of the fixed stars. What can be more preposterous that this statement of his?> > I can go on and on about the misconceptions that Avtarji has but hopre the above examples will suffice. Can you have any guess asto why Avtarji is out to malign Hindu astronomy and astrology?> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > --- On Mon, 3/2/09, Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com> wrote:> > Avtar Krishen Kaul jyotirved (AT) sify (DOT) com>> [VRI] Re: Fwd: An Important Matter> vedic_research_ institute> Monday, March 2, 2009, 10:53 PM> > > WAVES-Vedic, "Avtar Krishen Kaul"> jyotirved@ ..> wrote:> > Shri Robert E. Wilkinsonji,> Namaskar!> Your discussion with Shri Bhattaharjya regarding "An important> matter" is very confusing though interesting!> > For instance you have said, "When you write that,'for nearly twenty> two centuries the Uttarayana did take place in the Makar Rashi. but> we have to live in the present situation when the Uttarayana does not> occur in the Makar Rashiâ€' , you are basing your conclusions on the> Nirayana Sidereal system of calendar measure with its irregular> Constellations and shifting ayanamsha. This is not only unreliable> and confusing but worst of all it is un-Vedic".> > The main subject of your discussion and that of Shri Bhattacharjya is> zodiac, whether it is so called sidereal or so called Tropical! I> consulted several dictionaries to find the definition of the wrod> zodiac, and as per Oxford English Dictionary, it is, "An imaginary> belt in the heavens, about 18° wide, through which the ecliptic> passes centrally, and which forms the background of the motions of> the sun, moon and planets; it is divided into twelve equal parts of> 30° called signs of the zodiac, named after constellations that once> corresponded to them but do so no longer. The constellations, with> the appropriate symbols, are as follows: Aries (Ram), Taurus(Bull) ,> Gemini (Twins), Cancer (Crab), Leo (Lion), Virgo (Virgin), Libra> (Balance), Scorpio (Scorpion), Sagittarius (Archer), Capricornus> (Goat), Aquarius (Water bearer),Pisces (Fishes)".> > Zodiac, being actually a derivative of Greek word "zodiakos",> means "A circle of animals".> > It is thus clear in a layman's language that zodiac itself is an> imaginary belt which has been divided further into twelve imaginary> equal divisions and each division given an imaginary name!> No wonder, jyotishis, whether the so called sayana or the so called> nirayana, are making astoundingly correct predictions from the> positions of planets in an imaginary division of an imaginary belt!> > What I could gather further from your and Shri Bhattacharjya' s posts> is that you and your "mentor" through your "tapasya" and "yoga"> are "visualizing" something like a "Goat" (or is it a Crocodile?> since in India Makara means a crocodile!) being formed in the skies> when it is Winter Solstice, whereas Shri Bhattachrjya sees,> in/through his Jyoitisha Shastras, that such a formation could have> taken place on the day of Winter Solstice sometime in the past but it> is not happening like that now-a-days!> > AS a layman's guide like the Oxford English Dictionary has said, some> groups of stars could have resembled some forms like that of a Ram or> Bull etc. several thousands of years back, but now a days, because of> the proper motion of stars, no cluster resembles either a Bull or> Scorpion! Then again, one does not have to be a highly qualified> scholar to understand that a Bull is a Bull and a Scorpion is a> Scorpion which means that they can never be of equal sizes! Same is> the case with "Twins" who can never be equal to a Crab! As such, as> and when clusters of Stars did "jumble" into such formations> as "Archer" and "Virgin", they were never equal to one another!> Since jyotishis, whether so called sayana Vedic or so called nirayana> Vedic, cannot work with anything unequal, whether it is nakshatras> or "astrological signs" they had to some how "cut the constellations> to a uniform size of thirty degrees each".> > And that is what exactly was known as Chaldean astrology!> > And as the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention, so> jyotishis had to search for scriptural authorities, even if there are> none which advise us to consult some soothsayer for knowing ouir> future on the shoulders of a non-existent "division" of a non-> existent "belt"!> > If, therefore, Shri Bhattacharjya has seen "the sun meeting a Bull"> it must have been the same Chaldean Bull rather than some Indian> Bull! The only problem is that he has seen such a "meetign of the> sun with the Bull" as per the Vedas--though he has not quoted the> exact references! Maybe what he wants to prove is that even the> Vedas are talking of Chaldean constellations!> And what you are seeing even today at the time of Winter Solstice is> something like either a Crocodile or a Goat, about which perhaps you> are not yourself sure, and therefore trying to quote some or the> other authority, which itself is making the issue all the more> confusing!> Or is it that you and Shri Bahttacharjya, through Yogic and jyotisha> powers, are going to create a new "rashichakra" of twelve equal> divisions? We do hear that such an "event" did occur in the past> when Vishvamitra tried to create a new Universe with all the> galaxies! So maybe he has re-incarnated! After all, if "Vamadevas"> and "Parasharas" galore can re-incarnate to teach ignoramus people> like me some phalita jyotisha, what can prevent Vishvamitra to re-> incarnate!> Anyway, three cheers for the non-existent twelve-equal- divisions of> the non-existent zodiac!> I can only keep my fingers crossed and pray that the real Vedic> calendar does not get dismantled further in the cross fire of non-> existent Tropical versus non-existent sidereal zodiac!> With regards,> A K Kaul> > WAVES-Vedic, "Robert E. Wilkinson" <robtw@>> wrote:> >> > Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharj- ji> >> >> >> > Thank you for your reply. If you would be so kind, please provide> me with the exact citation where Sri Aurobindo discusses the date of> the Mahabharata war.> >> >> >> >> >> > The root of your error is plainly evident. When you write that,> â€Å"…for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did take place> in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present situation when> the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi� , you are basing> your conclusions on the Nirayana Sidereal system of calendar measure> with its irregular Constellations and shifting ayanamsha. This is not> only unreliable and confusing but worst of all it is un-Vedic. It> directly contradicts the verses in the Rig Veda that describe â€Å"One> wheel of three-hundred and sixty spokes, firmly riveted, that shake> not in the least.� This ‘One Wheel’ is the eternal and> unchanging Tropical zodiac or Sayana system used by the Rishis to> precisely measure the Earth in its yearly passage around the ecliptic> as well as a corresponding movement in the individual. The errors of> the Nirayana system, to which you evidently , arose with the> hegemony of scientific relativism into the realm of the sacred when> the astronomer usurped the role of the sage and seer and proclaimed> objective astronomical measurement to be the final authority in> calendar matters..> >> >> >> > All that you have written to support your contention that there is> no meaningful connection between Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn> Solstice and Uttarayana, the northward journey of Sun is, in the> final analysis, a direct contradiction of the Dharma. Open your mind> and listen to the words of the world’s leading Seer and Vedic> Cosmologist on these important matters:> >> >> >> > â€Å"…We speak glibly of a SANTANA Dharma, the 'eternal' Law. But> what sort of eternal law, and consequent stability, can a shifting> calendar provide the Hindu Samaj? The FLOATING AYANAMSHAS in vogue> today, which bear no sanction in the Veda, are anything but stable> and constant. Each second that passes of our Earth time causes that> distant sidereal point light-years away to change position, thereby> making that Ayanamsha with each passing second inoperable and> inapplicable for any ritual. If the pundit is sincere to his trade,> he must know this.. He must know that yesterday's Ayanamsha cannot be> held today as valid because IT HAS SHIFTED IN THE HEAVENS, perhaps> slightly, but shifted it has. Today it is not where it was yesterday.> And if we add to this the complete impossibility to determine just> where and what that Ayanamsha might be, then we understand why there> is total confusion among the ranks of the pundits. And Hinduism> suffers an increasing deterioration accordingly, with each ritual> that propagates this illusion.> >> >> >> > Absolutism of the eternal Dharma lies within our grasp if we take> the same Journey the Veda pre-scribes, poised on the immutable four> Cardinal Points: the March Equinox - Cosmic Dawn; the June Solstice -> Cosmic Midnight; the September Equinox - Cosmic Sunset; and last but> best of all, the December Solstice - Cosmic Midday or Uttarayana, the> highest position of the Sun whereby as a single Ray (the lost Sun> hidden by Vritra) it descends to the Earth casting no shadows. And> therefore it is known as the period of Victory for the Aryan Warrior;> or, in the larger cycles of time, as the Golden Age, the Satya Yuga.> >> > We need to understand the 'seed' nature of the Makar Sankranti> and how it can be said that this is an experience of both the Earth,> the individual and of the collective Hindu Samaj, all simultaneously> on that very special Solstice. This is understood when we realise> that Time itself is compressed to a seed at the De-cember Solstice.> The 'shortest day of the year' has no other factual significance for> inhabitants of our special planet than this: compression to a point,> compaction to a seed. The light of the Sun, those divine Cows/Rays,> is compressed to this point-experience of Time when its measure> reaches the extremes of itself [the Solstice or SHORTEST day of the> year]. And then when the [Makar] Sankranti is observed with the> right 'combination' - the right harmony of the Earth to the Ecliptic -> the entire Hindu Samaj connects itself through this 'seed-point' to> the replenishing Source from which it originally sprang. Today as in> aeons gone by, it can drink once again of the waters the Goddess> Mahasaraswati benignly releases abroad upon the world. â€Å"Thea�> Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, THE MAKAR SANKRANTI - Winter Solstice> >> >> >> > RE Wilkinson> >> > -> > Sunil Bhattacharjya> > waves-vedic> > Cc: robtw@ ; vedicscience@ ; atlantavedictemple@ ;> hinducivilization ; deenbc@ ; jyotirved@ ;> harimalla@> > Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:54 PM> > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> >> >> > Namaste R..E.Wilkinsonji,> >> > Namaste,> >> > You wrote as follows:> >> > Quote> >> > What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to> grasp the underlying truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn> Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar> Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are> completely incorrect.> >> > unquote> >> > On the contrary you have not understood the difference> between the significance of Makara Sankranti and that of Uttarayana.> You have referred to Sri Aurobindo. Starting from the day when Lele> taught him how to meditate he did advance to high level of thought.> But all that Sri Aurobindo said are not to be taken blindly. He said> that the Mahabharata war took place in 1190 BCE and we now know that> he was wrong from the archaeological evidence itself as the river> Saraswati dried up much before 1190 BCE and that at the time of the> Mahabharata war it was flowing and Balarama's going to the Saraswati> is mentioned in the Mahabharata. .> >> > You have quoted from the Rig Veda. Agreed that> Brahmanaspati (Brihaspati) did make the knowledge appear (or known)> that the certain eternal worlds came into being, which open their> doors with moons ( bright and dark fortnights) and autumns (seasons)> and that these (the eternal worlds) move effortlessly from one to> another, but it did not link up the Makar Rashi with any season. In> the Chapter 8 of the Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna describes the path by> which the yogi, who has known the Brahman departs. Lord Krishna also> describes the path by which the yogi, who is disciplined but has not> realised Brahman, goes. Other sources such as the Chandogya> Upanishad, Baudhayana smriti, Shiva gita and Kurma purana give> details of these aspects but nowhere they have linked up Makar> Sankranti with Uttarayana. Different ancient texts, composed at> different time periods, mention a particular season occurring at> different Nakshatras which shows that the seasons are not tied to the> Nakshatras and as the Winter season starts with the Uttarayana so> also the Uttarayana should also be not linked to any Nakshatra or> Rashi. Makar Sankramana is about Sankramana of the Makar rashi. As I> said before that for nearly twenty two centuries the Uttarayana did> take place in the Makar Rashi. but we have to live in the present> situation when the Uttarayana does not occur in the Makar Rashi. If> you have any doubt abiout the real meaning of rashi, please go to my> last mail.> >> > Let the truth prevail. It is not late for the astrologers,> who did not know this, to correct themselves and recognise that> Winter Solstice need not be linked up with the Makar Sankramana.> >> > Regards,> >> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> >> >> >> > --- On Tue, 2/24/09, Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw@> wrote:> >> > Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw@>> > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> > sunil_bhattacharjya @> > Cc: vedicscience@ , atlantavedictemple@ ,> HinduCalendar, hinducivilization,> waves-vedic, deenbc@, jyotirved@, harimalla@> > Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 9:16 AM> >> >> > > > Namaste Sunil K. Bhattacharjya- ji> >> >> >> > What you write is very interesting indeed but it fails to> grasp the underlying truth of the Makar Sankranti and the Capricorn> Gateway. Because of this, your conclusions regarding the Makar> Sankranti and Winter Solstice, the Sayana and Nirayana systems are> completely incorrect. These are matters of Veda, obtained through> Shruti as you mentioned. But in order to secure a higher> understanding of these important matters we must go back to the Vedic> scriptures themselves.> >> > As a matter of curiosity, How many of you on this study> group have even read Sri Aurobindo’s â€Å"Secret of the Veda�? If> this group is truly about Vedic Studies, we must get serious about it> and go directly to the source. That said, there is no better> authority on the Veda than Sri Aurobindo. He has plainly stated that> the Vedas are the oldest extant spiritual scriptures on earth. Its> name, â€Å"Veda� - the Knowledge, is the received name for the> highest spiritual truth of which the human mind is capable. Over the> millennia however this high knowledge became lost or corrupted. â€Å"As> the Veda had passed from the sage to the priest, wrote Sri Aurobindo,> so now it began to pass from the hands of the priest into the hands> of the scholar. And in that keeping it suffered the last mutilation> of its sense and the last diminution of its true dignity and> sanctity.� What we are seeing today on WAVES is a continuation of> that mutilation and diminution… not through scholars, but through> self-important pseudo-scholars like Yeshu Rathenam who are given free> rein to post comments that the Veda are a â€Å"worthless set of books.> This has to stop!> >> >> >> > Among the many secrets of the Veda given by the ancient> sages, are precise instructions, yogic techniques, the goal of which> is to help us ascend beyond our mortal mentality to the luminous> truth of our being on the spiritual plane of our existence. The> Rishis are quite plain spoken on this account. The secret of secrets,> the greatest mystery of the Veda is a supremely enlightened state> â€Å"Swar� which results from a perfect alignment of the individual> with the twelve months of the sacrificial year.> >> >> >> > "Certain eternal worlds are these which have come into> being, their doors are shut to you (or opened) by the months and the> years. Without effort one world moves in the other, and it is these> that Brihaspati has made manifest to knowledge" Rig Veda (II.24.5)> >> >> >> > These secret eternal worlds have been closed to us by our> misperception of the movement of time. The months and the years,> therefore have to be re-discovered and created in us by that same> power. This, says the Rishi, is the mightiest work, the fairest> achievement and it hinges on the conquest of time.> >> >> >> > â€Å"The Vedic idea was that the subconscient darkness and> the ordinary life of ignorance held concealed in it all that belongs> to the divine life and that these secret riches must be recovered> first by destroying the impenitent powers of ignorance and then by> possessing the lower life subjected to the higher.� Sri Aurobindo,> Secret of the Veda (p. 238)> >> >> >> > What we are interested in writes Sri Aurobindo, is the> process by which one is able to release the soul’s light and come> to know and live the higher stages of the journey and in so doing,> developing ‘the unity of the nine-rayed and the ten-rayed seers who> by the utter thought of the soul, by the word that illumines broke> open the fortified pens ...' This then is the Vedic sacrifice: ‘ a> journey; indeed the sacrifice itself is described as travelling, as> journeying to a divine goal; and the journey and the sacrifice are> continually spoken of as a battle against the dark powers.' Ibid, (p.> 183)> >> >> >> > '. . . the possession of our complete divine> consciousness delivered from all falsehood by the free descent of the> truth, gives us the secure possession of the world of Swar and the> enjoyment of mental and physical being lifted into the godhead above> the darkness, falsehood and death by the in-streaming of our divine> elements. This victory is won in twelve periods of the upward> journey, represented by the revolution of the twelve months of the> sacrificial year, the periods corresponding to the successive dawns> of a wider and wider truth, until the tenth secures the victory. What> may be the precise significance of the nine rays and the ten, is a> more difficult question which we are not yet in a position to solve*.> But the light we have already is sufficient to illuminate all the> main imagery of the Rig Veda.' Ibid (p. 182)> >> >> >> > In his Secret of the Veda, Sri Aurobindo described these> worlds of Swar as â€Å"Godheads� but it was not until the> cosmological discoveries made by â€Å"Thea� Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet> that these symbols, Vedic â€Å"godheads� of â€Å"the nine rays and the> ten� were revealed to be synonymous with and referring to the 9th> and 10th months of the cosmic year: Sagittarius and Capricorn. And,> according to the Rishi, it is in the Tenth Month (CAPRICORN) that the> final Victory is achieved. It is for this reason and none other that> the Makar Sankranti, the Capricorn Gateway, is the most important> ritual date in the Hindu Calendar. Perhaps you will now understand> why it is so important that the true Makar Sankranti (Winter> Solstice) be observed on 21 December and not 14 January.> >> >> >> > In the service of Truth,> >> >> >> > RE Wilkinson> >> > -> > Sunil Bhattacharjya> > Robert E. Wilkinson> > Monday, February 23, 2009 7:47 PM> > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> >> >> > Dear Robert E. wilkinsonji,> >> > Namaste,> >> > The astrologers like AKK show concern at Makar> Sankranti being observed about three weeks after the Winter Solstice> but they never care to know what is the true meaning of the Makar> Sankranti. Makar is the Makar rashi and Sankranti means the act of> Sankraman or intrusion. So Makar Sankranti has to when the Sun enters> the Makar Rashi. AKK and others never care to know why Makar Rashi is> considered important. Shravana nakshatra is in the Makar rashi and> this is Nakshatra ruled by Shri Hari. Shravana and Shruti has the> same origin and Shruti is the Veda. Shravana is considered asthe> Nakshatra of the Veda-Mata Saraswati. Before Abhijit Nakshatra, whose> ruler is Brahmaa, moved away to become the Pole-star, Abhijit used to> be a Nakshatra in the makar rashi. Appropriately Makar rashi was> called the Brahma rashi in the Mahabharata. Astrologically also the> Makar Rashi is considered to be Rashi of Bharatvarsha. Thus the Makar> Rashi has a unique position and the Sun's entry into the Makar Rashi> is an important event. Thus the Makar Sankranti has been and will be> observed when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi.> >> > Now it is also true that at one time the Winter> Solstice did take place in the Makar Rashi for close to twenty two> centuries. Even the latitudinal line at the point of the Winter> Solstice had begun to be called as the Makar Rekha or the Tropic of> Capricorn and this was appropriate only as long as the Wlnter> Solstice occurred in the true Makar Rashi. So AKK and others think> that Makar Sankranti and Winter Solstice are synonymous, forgetting> that this can only happen only for close to twenty two centuries at a> time and then wait for close to twenty four Millennia for that to> reoccur. This is not to say that the Winter Solstice has no> importance. The Tropical Calendar cannot do without the recognising> the Winter Solstice. So the Tropical calendar has to learn to coexist> with the Sidereal calendar. If those who want to observe the Winter> Solstice as the Uttarayana day can observe it by all means. So let us> have one additional festival day on the Uttarayana day for those who> want to onserve that rather than trying to annul the Makar Sankranti> festival on the day when the Sun enters the Makar Rashi.> >> > Regards,> >> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> >> >> >> >> >> > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, Robert E. Wilkinson> <robtw@> wrote:> >> > Robert E. Wilkinson <robtw@>> > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An> Important Matter> > sunil_bhattacharjya @, harimalla@> > Cc: vedicscience@ , atlantavedictemple@ ,> HinduCalendar, hinducivilization,> waves-vedic, deenbc@, jyotirved@> > Monday, February 23, 2009, 7:55 AM> >> >> > Namaste Hari Mala-ji,> >> > Thank you for your response and the interesting> information about the Makar.> >> > You bring up some interesting points in your> letter which I feel the need to address in some detail. Let me begin> with your request that those of us interested in Calendar Reform do> this through a "concerted effort and if possible without changing any> of the current practices and by not insisting on any particular> method. It is your belief that this would be the best type of reform> and acceptable to most".> >> > I am sure you have the best of intentions but> your reply reveals exactly what is WRONG with the general attitude> surrounding these important matters. Let me explain:> >> > First, it is virtually impossible to reform the> calendar through a concerted effort given the wide gaps in> understanding evidenced by these discussions on WAVES. I agree with> you that Dr. Arya is worthy of praise but, in my opinion, the> scholarship of Krishen Kaul and Yeshu Rathenam does not rise to that> level. Nevertheless you would prefer that we find an inclusive> solution, without changing the current practices and acceptable to> most. In other words you would be comfortable with some kind of> compromise that doesn’t rock the boat. You are evidently unaware> that when it comes to matters of Higher Truth and the cosmological> absolutes that the Veda prescribes, compromise is simply not an> option. What is required is credible LEADERSHIP that can expose the> fallacious logic that so often passes for wisdom on this discussion> group. What I find simply unbelievable is that many of the members of> WAVES, people who supposedly have some knowledge of the Veda, accept> the pretentious posturing of AKK as gospel while virtually ignoring> the authoritative statements of Veda masters like Sri Aurobindo,> â€Å"Thea� Patrizia-Norelli- Bachelet and Swami Dayananda Saraswati.> No discrimination is made between the opinions of scholars and the> direct knowledge of the sage. Naturally this results in an> environment of mass confusion out of which true Calendar Reform> cannot emerge.> >> > And what is the result? One of the esteemed> leaders of a Vedic Temple in the US reads what I have written on> calendar reform and, not being a Sanskritist or Jyotish scholar> himself, he writes and asks AKK to set him straight out of his vast> experience and knowledge. Here is someone who holds a position of> trust and leadership in the religious community, responsible for the> spiritual guidance of others, and he has no understanding of these> important matters. I have written him on several occasions to ask for> a fair hearing but, because of his faith in AKK, I have not received> even the courtesy of a reply. So this man, having placed his> confidence in a person of no realization and preferring not to rock> the boat, returns to his flock and leads them on a path of Adharma> rather than make a sincere effort to establish what is and is not the> truth of the Veda. Now multiply this by tens of thousands and you> have some idea of the problem we must overcome to re-establish the> Sanatana Dharma.> >> > So to answer your question, No! we cannot give> in to compromise.. No! we cannot continue the current Nirayana> practices and Yes!, we must insist on the method laid down in the> Veda if we are to have any meaningful reform of the Calendar.> >> >> >> > As for the names of the temples in India that> have embraced the beginnings of Calendar reform, you will find them> listed on my website http://www.vediccos mology.com.> >> > In the service of truth,> >> > RE Wilkinson> >> >> >> >> >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> >> > > > Checked by AVG.> > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 -> Release 2/23/2009 7:17 AM> >> >> >> >> >> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> ----------> >> >> > > > Checked by AVG.> > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1967 - Release Date:> 2/23/2009 7:17 AM> >> > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > ----------> > > > Checked by AVG.> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release 3/1/2009 5:46 PM> > > > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG.> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.8/1985 - Release 3/5/2009 7:54 AM> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Dear Sreenadh ji," May be this 3rd point needs a revision. Of course the initial concept and trend must be of associating Rashi or Naksharas with a "group of stars", especially when the span of Rashis and Nakshatras were UNEQUAL. But this must have ended and got redefined when the mathematical concept of EQUAL span for Nakshatras and Rashis came into place. "Is it likely to be just a typical difference between observational and calculative astronomy? "Unequal" has to do with the actual sign as it is visible, and therefore assumes importance in observational astronomy. The moment it becomes computational or mathematical, it would immediately assume a mathematical notion of equal divisions of an imaginary ellipse. What say? Sreenadh <sreesog Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 6:29:42 PM Re:An Important Matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Dear ShankaraBharadwaj ji,==>> Is it likely to be just a typical difference between observational and calculative astronomy? "Unequal" has to do with the actual sign as it is visible, and therefore assumes importance in observational astronomy. The moment it becomes computational or mathematical, it would immediately assume a mathematical notion of equal divisions of an imaginary ellipse.<== Absolutely agree! This is the most important point to note and understand. Ancient Indian Astrologia (meaning Jyotisastra; it seems that this word is better to denote astronomy and astrology together) knowledge knew excellent use of computational astronomy with a unique beauty! This is well reflected in Surya Siddhanta, Arya bhateeya and other siddhantic texts. The lack of texts or available texts does not denote a discontinuity of tradition or knowledge. For example there is not even a single text available till date on 'Kavati Kriya' (Advanced Pati ganita done using shells or stones), but still this great tradition of ancient indian computation system (which was used to do the calculations related to astronomy as well) was prevalent in India from the time of Bhaskaracharya and before and is present till date - available in its full beauty in Kerala even today. The point is - We may not have ancient datable texts on computational astronomy (except Surya Siddhanta, Pancha Siddhantika and Aryabhateeya) to show. But that DOES NOT deny the possibility of exceptional development and usage of a unique system of mathematical astronomy coupled with normal amount of observational astronomy present in ancient India. When the computational astronomy becomes exceptionally good and beautiful, the need for too much tabulated observational astronomical readings becomes less important. The use of - * NIRAYANA fixed Frame work * Polar Longitude (Only the greeks ignored Hipparchus, is the other scholar who uses this) * Exceptional understanding about the spherical nature of planets (astronomy is called Gola, 'the science of spheres'), and the sun centric nature of planetary movements, belief in the beauty and perfection of astronomical mathematics, the past historical knowledge and tradition that goes back to thousands of years. * Observational astronomy - as required, especially as a correction and verification tool for the results arrived at by computational astronomy. All these factors might have contributed to the development of an excellent system of Astrologia in India. Love and regards,Sreenadh , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:>> Dear Sreenadh ji,> > "May be this 3rd point needs a revision. Of course the> initial concept and trend must be of associating Rashi or Naksharas with a> "group of stars", especially when the span of Rashis and Nakshatras> were UNEQUAL. But this must have ended and got redefined when the mathematical> concept of EQUAL span for Nakshatras and Rashis came into place. "> > Is it likely to be just a typical difference between observational and calculative astronomy? "Unequal" has to do with the actual sign as it is visible, and therefore assumes importance in observational astronomy. The moment it becomes computational or mathematical, it would immediately assume a mathematical notion of equal divisions of an imaginary ellipse. > > What say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Dear Sreenadhji, Not only ancients, but even the Modern day Panchangmakers can compute without getting out of their room, where the location of the planets must be, on any date, and without the use of any instruments like telescopes, observatories etc. Even with their closed eyes, they can compute as good as the Rapheals Ephemeris, what must be the position of any planet on any date of any century. God willing, though I am not a Panchangmaker and neither intend to be one, but prove in this group within a few months time, that this can be done. This is the beauty of the Indians, and the knowledge received from our ancestors. This is not any tall claim or exaggeration, but can be done. best wishes, Bhaskar. , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> Dear ShankaraBharadwaj ji,> ==>> > Is it likely to be just a typical difference between observational and> calculative astronomy? "Unequal" has to do with the actual sign as it is> visible, and therefore assumes importance in observational astronomy.> The moment it becomes computational or mathematical, it would> immediately assume a mathematical notion of equal divisions of an> imaginary ellipse.> <==> Absolutely agree! This is the most important point to note and> understand. Ancient Indian Astrologia (meaning Jyotisastra; it seems> that this word is better to denote astronomy and astrology together)> knowledge knew excellent use of computational astronomy with a unique> beauty! This is well reflected in Surya Siddhanta, Arya bhateeya and> other siddhantic texts.> The lack of texts or available texts does not denote a discontinuity> of tradition or knowledge. For example there is not even a single text> available till date on 'Kavati Kriya' (Advanced Pati ganita done using> shells or stones), but still this great tradition of ancient indian> computation system (which was used to do the calculations related to> astronomy as well) was prevalent in India from the time of> Bhaskaracharya and before and is present till date - available in its> full beauty in Kerala even today.> The point is - We may not have ancient datable texts on computational> astronomy (except Surya Siddhanta, Pancha Siddhantika and Aryabhateeya)> to show. But that DOES NOT deny the possibility of exceptional> development and usage of a unique system of mathematical astronomy> coupled with normal amount of observational astronomy present in> ancient India. When the computational astronomy becomes exceptionally> good and beautiful, the need for too much tabulated observational> astronomical readings becomes less important. The use of -> * NIRAYANA fixed Frame work> * Polar Longitude (Only the greeks ignored Hipparchus, is the other> scholar who uses this)> * Exceptional understanding about the spherical nature of planets> (astronomy is called Gola, 'the science of spheres'), and the sun> centric nature of planetary movements, belief in the beauty and> perfection of astronomical mathematics, the past historical knowledge> and tradition that goes back to thousands of years.> * Observational astronomy - as required, especially as a correction> and verification tool for the results arrived at by computational> astronomy.> All these factors might have contributed to the development of an> excellent system of Astrologia in India.> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > , ShankaraBharadwaj> Khandavalli shankarabharadwaj@ wrote:> >> > Dear Sreenadh ji,> >> > "May be this 3rd point needs a revision. Of course the> > initial concept and trend must be of associating Rashi or Naksharas> with a> > "group of stars", especially when the span of Rashis and Nakshatras> > were UNEQUAL. But this must have ended and got redefined when the> mathematical> > concept of EQUAL span for Nakshatras and Rashis came into place. "> >> > Is it likely to be just a typical difference between observational and> calculative astronomy? "Unequal" has to do with the actual sign as it is> visible, and therefore assumes importance in observational astronomy.> The moment it becomes computational or mathematical, it would> immediately assume a mathematical notion of equal divisions of an> imaginary ellipse.> >> > What say?> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Dear Bhaskar ji, True! I agree. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Bhaskar" <bhaskar_jyotish wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadhji,> > Not only ancients, but even the Modern day Panchangmakers can compute> without getting out of their room, where the location of the planets> must be, on any date, and without the use of any instruments like> telescopes, observatories etc.> > Even with their closed eyes, they can compute as good as the Rapheals> Ephemeris, what must be the position of any planet on any date of any> century.> > God willing, though I am not a Panchangmaker and neither intend to be> one, but prove in this group within a few months time, that this can be> done.> > This is the beauty of the Indians, and the knowledge received from our> ancestors. This is not any tall claim or exaggeration, but can be done.> > best wishes,> > Bhaskar.> > > > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear ShankaraBharadwaj ji,> > ==>> > > Is it likely to be just a typical difference between observational> and> > calculative astronomy? "Unequal" has to do with the actual sign as it> is> > visible, and therefore assumes importance in observational astronomy.> > The moment it becomes computational or mathematical, it would> > immediately assume a mathematical notion of equal divisions of an> > imaginary ellipse.> > <==> > Absolutely agree! This is the most important point to note and> > understand. Ancient Indian Astrologia (meaning Jyotisastra; it seems> > that this word is better to denote astronomy and astrology together)> > knowledge knew excellent use of computational astronomy with a unique> > beauty! This is well reflected in Surya Siddhanta, Arya bhateeya and> > other siddhantic texts.> > The lack of texts or available texts does not denote a discontinuity> > of tradition or knowledge. For example there is not even a single text> > available till date on 'Kavati Kriya' (Advanced Pati ganita done using> > shells or stones), but still this great tradition of ancient indian> > computation system (which was used to do the calculations related to> > astronomy as well) was prevalent in India from the time of> > Bhaskaracharya and before and is present till date - available in its> > full beauty in Kerala even today.> > The point is - We may not have ancient datable texts on computational> > astronomy (except Surya Siddhanta, Pancha Siddhantika and> Aryabhateeya)> > to show. But that DOES NOT deny the possibility of exceptional> > development and usage of a unique system of mathematical astronomy> > coupled with normal amount of observational astronomy present in> > ancient India. When the computational astronomy becomes exceptionally> > good and beautiful, the need for too much tabulated observational> > astronomical readings becomes less important. The use of -> > * NIRAYANA fixed Frame work> > * Polar Longitude (Only the greeks ignored Hipparchus, is the other> > scholar who uses this)> > * Exceptional understanding about the spherical nature of planets> > (astronomy is called Gola, 'the science of spheres'), and the sun> > centric nature of planetary movements, belief in the beauty and> > perfection of astronomical mathematics, the past historical knowledge> > and tradition that goes back to thousands of years.> > * Observational astronomy - as required, especially as a correction> > and verification tool for the results arrived at by computational> > astronomy.> > All these factors might have contributed to the development of an> > excellent system of Astrologia in India.> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> > , ShankaraBharadwaj> > Khandavalli shankarabharadwaj@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Sreenadh ji,> > >> > > "May be this 3rd point needs a revision. Of course the> > > initial concept and trend must be of associating Rashi or Naksharas> > with a> > > "group of stars", especially when the span of Rashis and Nakshatras> > > were UNEQUAL. But this must have ended and got redefined when the> > mathematical> > > concept of EQUAL span for Nakshatras and Rashis came into place. "> > >> > > Is it likely to be just a typical difference between observational> and> > calculative astronomy? "Unequal" has to do with the actual sign as it> is> > visible, and therefore assumes importance in observational astronomy.> > The moment it becomes computational or mathematical, it would> > immediately assume a mathematical notion of equal divisions of an> > imaginary ellipse.> > >> > > What say?> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Dear Sreenadhji,Namaste,You have said Quote Unquote Indian astrology overcome this initial stage in the Vedic past itself as evident from the list of 27 Nakshatras provided by the Vedas and the statements such as "Middle of Aslesha (Nakshatra span)" and "Beginning of Dhanishta (Nakshatra span)" present in Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagatha (dated BC 1400). UnquoteWe are all aware that the nodal points of the Moon ie. Rahu and Ketu (or the Dragon's head and Dragon's tail) move in the direction opposite to the movement of the grahas in astrology. Similarly in astronomy the Solstice points also move in the opposite direction and in a Nakshatra the Solstice (whether Winter Solstice or the Summer solstice) occurs for 960 years. Winter solstice occurred in Dhanistha from about 2400 BCE to about 1400 BCE. So Winter solstice started occurring from the beginning of the Dhanistha around 2400 BCE and not in 1400 BCE as most people think. Earliest date for Vedanga Jyotisha's should be 2400 BCE and not 1400 BCE. Further at that time the Summer solstice occurred in the middle of Ashlesha. Garga's location of Summer solstice was almost at the beginning of Aslesha, ie at his time the Summer solstice was yet to occur in Aslesha. From the beinning of Ashlesha to the middle of Aslesha it required 960 / 2 = 480 years, ie, say about 500 years. So Date of Garga was 2400 + 500 = 2900 BCE. We know that Bhagavad Purana was composed about two centuries before that ie. around 3100 BCE and that was the time the Rashis (Nirayana) rashis came into use. In Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna mentions Margashirha but did not mention the seasonal months. Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Fri, 3/6/09, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:Sreenadh <sreesog Re:An Important Matter Date: Friday, March 6, 2009, 4:59 AM Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, I would love to agree with you, but still have some concerns, which needs to be clarified. ===> > 1) It is wrong to say rashis are non-Vedic > This is because the "rashis' are mentioned in the puranas including the Bhagavat purana and the rashis came to be used only towards the end of the Dwapara yuga ie. towards the end of the 4th Millennium BCE. <=== Whether it be NIRAYANA Rashis or Nakshatras we can find support from Vedas or connected literature (whether it be Puranas, Upanishads, Ithihasas or what ever), so we can agree upon the argument that 'Rashis can be Vedic as well', even though the question 'wether the vedic Rashis are Sayana or Nirayana may still roam around for some time (and may get resolved)'. Any way for sure it is clear that Vedic Nakshatras are NIRAYANA in nature and provided with a fixed frame of reference in the vedic past. ==> > 2) It is wrong to say that rashis are imported from Babylonia. > This is because the rashis have been used in India in the 4th Millennium BCE. <== Whether it be NIRAYANA Nakshatras or Rashis, since the NIRAYANA FIXED FRAME WORK was popular even at 4th Millennium BCE in India, it is clear that the Nirayana concept and framework are NOT imported to India from anywhere, but was available here itself. It is thought, argued and proved by many that the Babylonian Rashis are Tropical in nature and does not have the NIRAYANA nature that definitely was there with both the Indian concepts of Rashis and Nakshatras and as well as in the Hipparchus writings which the greeks ignored. (This is a strong pointer to the fact that Hipparchus might have borrowed much from Indian Astrlogia) ==> > 3) Your argument towards Nirayana versus Sayana needs revision too. > > This is because the "Rashi" by definition means a group. You can check that in your favourite Monier-Williams. Rashis are a group of Nakshatras. To the ancient jyotishis the twelve clusters of nakshatras in the ecliptic appeared like different figures. For example, the Vrashabha rashi appeared like a bull. This they did that by imagining some lines joining the nakshatras within the rashi. It is true that an unimaginative person may not be able to visualise the shape or form, but the nakshtras within the rashis are very real. In olden days the jyotishis were not like the arm-chair jyotishis of today. They determined the positions of the grahas and nakshatras through the naked eye. They could tell which graha was in which nakshatra and rashi. Today this system is termed as Nirayana. In olden days the seasons occurred in different rashis at different times due to the precession of the earth. Madhu and Madhava etc. occurred at different nakshatras and rashis at different times. You know that Varahamihira too indicated this. > > Further the western jyotishis concentrated their attention on the Tropical Zodiac system and imagined the fake rashis. (Please refer to the definition of rashi). However the Indian jyotishis did not give up the link between their jyotish and the nakshatras and the true rashis but they gave up observing the grahas and the nakshatras with the naked eye. So they wanted the measure of precessional shift, called "Ayanamsha" to correct the Tropical Zodiac positions of the grahas so that they can relate the corrected graha positions to the positions of the non-moving nakshatras. As the Tropical Zodiac shifts according to precession it is called Sayana (sa= with, ayana= movement) or with processional shift. The non-moving Zodiac, i.e. the original <== May be this 3rd point needs a revision. Of course the initial concept and trend must be of associating Rashi or Naksharas with a "group of stars", especially when the span of Rashis and Nakshatras were UNEQUAL. But this must have ended and got redefined when the mathematical concept of EQUAL span for Nakshatras and Rashis came into place. For example whether it be Leo or Scorpio (th group of stars, i.e. constellation I mean) spans many Rashis (Signs), but the name Leo or Scorpio is applied only to a span of 30 degree only. Same is the case with Nakshatras such as Bharani or Mrigasira. The association of "group of stars" with Bharani, Mrigasira etc can be in existence only till the Nakshatras were unequal and the association of "group of stars" with Leo or Scorpio can be in existence only till the Rasis where unequal. Indian astrology overcome this initial stage in the Vedic past itself as evident from the list of 27 Nakshatras provided by the Vedas and the statements such as "Middle of Aslesha (Nakshatra span)" and "Beginning of Dhanishta (Nakshatra span)" present in Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagatha (dated BC 1400). So as per the MATHAMATICALLY REFINED concept of NIRAYANA Rashis and Nakshatras used in India (ancient and popular in India), "Rashis are no more related to group of stars (constellations) as per Indian astrologia". Love and regards, Sreenadh ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> waves-vedic> Thursday, February 19, 2009, 3:19 PM> > Dear Shri Kaulji,> > Namaste,> > 1) It is wrong to say rashis are non-Vedic> > This is because the "rashis' are mentioned in the puranas including the Bhagavat purana and the rashis came to be used only towards the end of the Dwapara yuga ie. towards the end of the 4th Millennium BCE. I am sure you know that the Valmiki Ramayana of the Treta yuga mentions the position of the Moon in a particular nakshatra at the time of the birth of Lord Rama. But the Adhyatma Ramayana, composed by Vedavyasa in the Dwapara yuga, mentions the position of the Sun in Mesha rashi at the time of Lord Rama's birth. You also know from the Chandogya upanishad that purana is considered to be the fifth Veda. So it is wrong to say that "Rashis" are non-Vedic. You must be aware that reading of this fifth Veda is a prerequisite for reading the four Vedas.> > 2) It is wrong to say that rashis are imported from Babylonia.> > This is because the rashis have been used in India in the 4th Millennium BCE. You date of Varahamihira is also wrong as in Varahamihira' s time Saka kala was not there . Sakakala, which Brahmagupta calls Shakanta kala, came at the end of the Shaka rule in 78 CE. Varahamihira mentions Shakendra kala, which was at the beginning of the Shaka rule Therefore my request to you is that kindly revise your Rotary document immediately.> > 3) Your argument towards Nirayana versus Sayana needs revision too.> > This is because the "Rashi" by definition means a group. You can check that in your favourite Monier-Williams. Rashis are a group of Nakshatras. To the ancient jyotishis the twelve clusters of nakshatras in the ecliptic appeared like different figures. For example, the Vrashabha rashi appeared like a bull. This they did that by imagining some lines joining the nakshatras within the rashi. It is true that an unimaginative person may not be able to visualise the shape or form, but the nakshtras within the rashis are very real. In olden days the jyotishis were not like the arm-chair jyotishis of today. They determined the positions of the grahas and nakshatras through the naked eye. They could tell which graha was in which nakshatra and rashi. Today this system is termed as Nirayana. In olden days the seasons occurred in different rashis at different times due to the precession of the earth. Madhu and Madhava etc. occurred at different nakshatras and> rashis at different times. You know that Varahamihira too indicated this.> > Further the western jyotishis concentrated their attention on the Tropical Zodiac system and imagined the fake rashis. (Please refer to the definition of rashi). However the Indian jyotishis did not give up the link between their jyotish and the nakshatras and the true rashis but they gave up observing the grahas and the nakshatras with the naked eye. So they wanted the measure of precessional shift, called "Ayanamsha" to correct the Tropical Zodiac positions of the grahas so that they can relate the corrected graha positions to the positions of the non-moving nakshatras. As the Tropical Zodiac shifts according to precession it is called Sayana (sa= with, ayana= movement) or with precessional shift. The non-moving Zodiac, ie. the original> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, ==>Winter solstice occurred in Dhanistha from about 2400 BCE to about 1400 BCE. So Winter solstice started occurring from the beginning of the Dhanistha around 2400 BCE and not in 1400 BCE as most people think.<== Currently Uttarayana beginning is approximately in 245 deg 17 min; i.e. in Sag Sign, in Mula Nakshatra 5 deg 17 min. (Equinox in 2 deg. 3 min Uttara-Bhadrapada approx). At the time of Lagatha it was in Zero degree Dhanishta. From the beginning of Dhanishta to 5 deg 17 min in Mula, going in reverse direction the Ayanadi had covered, 13.20 (Sravana) + 13.20 (Uttara-Ashadha) + 13.20 (Purva-Ashadha) +8.03 (Mula) = 58 deg 03 min. The annual speed of Ayanadi is about 50 sec per year on an average. Thus it will take (48 x 60 x60 + 03 x 60)/50 =3460 years before today (2009). This is nothing but the period around 3460 - 2009 = BCE 1451. So I wonder how you argument based on "interpreting 'Beginning of Dhanishta' as the 'End of Dhanishta' can hold"! Any way since (13 x 60 x 60)/50 = 936, it is clear that the Ayanadi stays in a Nakshatra for about 936 years and also that Ayanadi was in Dhanishta from BCE 2387 to BCE 1451. But this does not give us freedom to interpret "Beginning of Dhanishta" as "End of Dhanishta" and demand a 1000 year shift in chronology!!Love and regarding,Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sreenadhji,> > Namaste,> > You have said > > Quote Unquote> > Indian astrology> overcome this initial stage in the Vedic past itself as evident from the list> of 27 Nakshatras provided by the Vedas and the statements such as "Middle> of Aslesha (Nakshatra span)" and "Beginning of Dhanishta (Nakshatra> span)" present in Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagatha (dated BC 1400). > > Unquote> > We are all aware that the nodal points of the Moon ie. Rahu and Ketu (or the Dragon's head and Dragon's tail) move in the direction opposite to the movement of the grahas in astrology. Similarly in astronomy the Solstice points also move in the opposite direction and in a Nakshatra the Solstice (whether Winter Solstice or the Summer solstice) occurs for 960 years. Winter solstice occurred in Dhanistha from about 2400 BCE to about 1400 BCE. So Winter solstice started occurring from the beginning of the Dhanistha around 2400 BCE and not in 1400 BCE as most people think. Earliest date for Vedanga Jyotisha's should be 2400 BCE and not 1400 BCE. Further at that time the Summer solstice occurred in the middle of Ashlesha. Garga's location of Summer solstice was almost at the beginning of Aslesha, ie at his time the Summer solstice was yet to occur in Aslesha. From the beinning of Ashlesha to the middle of Aslesha it required 960 / 2 = 480 years, ie, say> about 500 years. So Date of Garga was 2400 + 500 = 2900 BCE. We know that Bhagavad Purana was composed about two centuries before that ie. around 3100 BCE and that was the time the Rashis (Nirayana) rashis came into use. In Bhagavad Gita Lord Krishna mentions Margashirha but did not mention the seasonal months. > > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > --- On Fri, 3/6/09, Sreenadh sreesog wrote:> Sreenadh sreesog Re:An Important Matter> > Friday, March 6, 2009, 4:59 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, > > I would love to agree with you, but still have some> concerns, which needs to be clarified. > > ===>> > > 1) It is wrong to say rashis are non-Vedic> > > This is because the "rashis' are mentioned in the puranas including> the Bhagavat purana and the rashis came to be used only towards the end of> the Dwapara yuga ie. towards the end of the 4th Millennium BCE.> > <===> > Whether it be NIRAYANA Rashis or Nakshatras we can find support from> Vedas or connected literature (whether it be Puranas, Upanishads, Ithihasas or> what ever), so we can agree upon the argument that 'Rashis can be Vedic as> well', even though the question 'wether the vedic Rashis are Sayana or Nirayana> may still roam around for some time (and may get resolved)'. Any way for sure> it is clear that Vedic Nakshatras are NIRAYANA in nature and provided with a> fixed frame of reference in the vedic past. > > ==>> > > 2) It is wrong to say that rashis are imported from> Babylonia.> > > This is because the rashis have been used in India in the 4th> Millennium BCE. > > <==> > Whether it be NIRAYANA Nakshatras or Rashis, since the NIRAYANA> FIXED FRAME WORK was popular even at 4th Millennium BCE in India, it is clear> that the Nirayana concept and framework are NOT imported to India from> anywhere, but was available here itself. It is thought, argued and proved> by many that the Babylonian Rashis are Tropical in nature and does not have the> NIRAYANA nature that definitely was there with both the Indian concepts of> Rashis and Nakshatras and as well as in the Hipparchus writings which the> greeks ignored. (This is a strong pointer to the fact that Hipparchus might> have borrowed much from Indian Astrlogia) > > ==>> > > 3) Your argument towards Nirayana versus Sayana needs> revision too.> > > > > > This is because the "Rashi" by definition means a group. You> can check that in your favourite Monier-Williams. Rashis are a group> of Nakshatras. To the ancient jyotishis the twelve clusters of nakshatras in> the ecliptic appeared like different figures. For example, the Vrashabha rashi> appeared like a bull. This they did that by imagining some lines joining the> nakshatras within the rashi. It is true that an unimaginative person may not be> able to visualise the shape or form, but the nakshtras within the rashis are> very real. In olden days the jyotishis were not like the arm-chair> jyotishis of today. They determined the positions of the grahas and nakshatras> through the naked eye. They could tell which graha was in which nakshatra and> rashi. Today this system is termed as Nirayana. In olden days the> seasons occurred in different rashis at different times due to the precession> of the earth. Madhu and Madhava etc. occurred at different nakshatras and > rashis at different times. You know that Varahamihira too indicated this.> > > > > > Further the western jyotishis concentrated their attention on> the Tropical Zodiac system and imagined the fake rashis. (Please refer to> the definition of rashi). However the Indian jyotishis did not give> up the link between their jyotish and the nakshatras and the true> rashis but they gave up observing the grahas and the nakshatras with the naked> eye. So they wanted the measure of precessional shift, called> "Ayanamsha" to correct the Tropical Zodiac positions of the> grahas so that they can relate the corrected graha positions to the positions> of the non-moving nakshatras. As the Tropical Zodiac shifts according to> precession it is called Sayana (sa= with, ayana= movement) or with processional> shift. The non-moving Zodiac, i.e. the original> > <==> > May be this 3rd point needs a revision. Of course the> initial concept and trend must be of associating Rashi or Naksharas with a> "group of stars", especially when the span of Rashis and Nakshatras> were UNEQUAL. But this must have ended and got redefined when the mathematical> concept of EQUAL span for Nakshatras and Rashis came into place. For> example whether it be Leo or Scorpio (th group of stars, i.e. constellation I> mean) spans many Rashis (Signs), but the name Leo or Scorpio is applied only to> a span of 30 degree only. Same is the case with Nakshatras such as Bharani or> Mrigasira. The association of "group of stars" with> Bharani, Mrigasira etc can be in existence only till the Nakshatras were> unequal and the association of "group of stars" with Leo or Scorpio> can be in existence only till the Rasis where unequal. Indian astrology> overcome this initial stage in the Vedic past itself as evident from the list> of 27 Nakshatras provided by the Vedas and the statements such as "Middle> of Aslesha (Nakshatra span)" and "Beginning of Dhanishta (Nakshatra> span)" present in Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagatha (dated BC 1400). So as> per the MATHAMATICALLY REFINED concept of NIRAYANA Rashis and Nakshatras used> in India (ancient and popular in India), "Rashis are no more related to group> of stars (constellations) as per Indian astrologia".> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:> >> > Sunil Bhattacharjya sunil_bhattacharjya > Re: [WAVES-Vedic] RE: Fwd: An Important Matter> > waves-vedic> > Thursday, February 19, 2009, 3:19 PM> > > > Dear Shri Kaulji,> > > > Namaste,> > > > 1) It is wrong to say rashis are non-Vedic> > > > This is because the "rashis' are mentioned in the puranas including the Bhagavat purana and the rashis came to be used only towards the end of the Dwapara yuga ie. towards the end of the 4th Millennium BCE. I am sure you know that the Valmiki Ramayana of the Treta yuga mentions the position of the Moon in a particular nakshatra at the time of the birth of Lord Rama. But the Adhyatma Ramayana, composed by Vedavyasa in the Dwapara yuga, mentions the position of the Sun in Mesha rashi at the time of Lord Rama's birth. You also know from the Chandogya upanishad that purana is considered to be the fifth Veda. So it is wrong to say that "Rashis" are non-Vedic. You must be aware that reading of this fifth Veda is a prerequisite for reading the four Vedas.> > > > 2) It is wrong to say that rashis are imported from Babylonia.> > > > This is because the rashis have been used in India in the 4th Millennium BCE. You date of Varahamihira is also wrong as in Varahamihira' s time Saka kala was not there . Sakakala, which Brahmagupta calls Shakanta kala, came at the end of the Shaka rule in 78 CE. Varahamihira mentions Shakendra kala, which was at the beginning of the Shaka rule Therefore my request to you is that kindly revise your Rotary document immediately.> > > > 3) Your argument towards Nirayana versus Sayana needs revision too.> > > > This is because the "Rashi" by definition means a group. You can check that in your favourite Monier-Williams. Rashis are a group of Nakshatras. To the ancient jyotishis the twelve clusters of nakshatras in the ecliptic appeared like different figures. For example, the Vrashabha rashi appeared like a bull. This they did that by imagining some lines joining the nakshatras within the rashi. It is true that an unimaginative person may not be able to visualise the shape or form, but the nakshtras within the rashis are very real. In olden days the jyotishis were not like the arm-chair jyotishis of today. They determined the positions of the grahas and nakshatras through the naked eye. They could tell which graha was in which nakshatra and rashi. Today this system is termed as Nirayana. In olden days the seasons occurred in different rashis at different times due to the precession of the earth. Madhu and Madhava etc. occurred at different nakshatras> and> > rashis at different times. You know that Varahamihira too indicated this.> > > > Further the western jyotishis concentrated their attention on the Tropical Zodiac system and imagined the fake rashis. (Please refer to the definition of rashi). However the Indian jyotishis did not give up the link between their jyotish and the nakshatras and the true rashis but they gave up observing the grahas and the nakshatras with the naked eye. So they wanted the measure of precessional shift, called "Ayanamsha" to correct the Tropical Zodiac positions of the grahas so that they can relate the corrected graha positions to the positions of the non-moving nakshatras. As the Tropical Zodiac shifts according to precession it is called Sayana (sa= with, ayana= movement) or with precessional shift. The non-moving Zodiac, ie. the original> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Dear Renuji,Namaste,To my understanding Lord Buddha tells us in the Vasala Sutta about who is (and should be considered as) an outcast in the real sense as observable through their actions in the present life. But in the case of the untouchable girl Lord Buddha was telling the girl that she was born in an untouchable family due to her past Karma. Though both are true, to my mind, there is a subtle difference between these two.cases.Regards,Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Thu, 3/5/09, renunw <renunw wrote:renunw <renunw Re: An Important Matter Date: Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:01 PM Dear Sunil ji, //Further past karma also decides where one is born. If one is born in a particular varna that is due to one's past karma. When Lord Buddha did not allow the untouchable girl to marry Ananda he told her that due the karma of her past birth she came to be born as an untouchable and she has to suffer from the pangs of separation from her beloved.// I agree. You are correct. Let me go a bit further...The incident occurred when Ananda thero went to a well to get some water. This untouchable girl fell in love with the monk, who had attained only the 1st step, 'sothapanna' , out of the 4 steps to 'moksha'. Hence he too had all desires. Also the mother of the girl had done a 'bandhana' to get Ananda thero. Naturally Ananda had a 'crush' on this girl. Knowing this Buddha chanted 'Jalanandana Pirith', which would release Ananda from this 'bandhana'. There had been instances where Buddha went in search of untouchables who had good enough karma to attain 'moksha' , and preached dhamma to them. I checked with a learned Buddhist monk in the morning, about the chapter in Dhammapada on Brahmins. Even I was wrong there...in that particular chapter Buddha used the word brahmin to refer to fully exalted persons. But in Vasla Sutra [Discourse on Outcasts] Buddha said, "Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman." I am happy to know that you are well versed with Buddha's teachings. If interested the link to Vasala Sutra is: http://www.freedhar ma.com/text/ Canon/vasala_ sutta/Thera_ Piyadassi/ 1.html blessings, Renu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 //Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman. " // Perfectly true. , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Renuji, > > Namaste, > > To my understanding Lord Buddha tells us in the Vasala Sutta about who is (and should be considered as) an outcast in the real sense as observable through their actions in the present life. But in the case of the untouchable girl Lord Buddha was telling the girl that she was born in an untouchable family due to her past Karma. Though both are true, to my mind, there is a subtle difference between these two.cases. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/5/09, renunw renunw wrote: > renunw renunw > Re: An Important Matter > > Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:01 PM > > > > > > Dear Sunil ji, > > > > //Further past karma also decides where one is born. If one is born in a particular varna that is due to one's past karma. When Lord Buddha did not allow the untouchable girl to marry Ananda he told her that due the karma of her past birth she came to be born as an untouchable and she has to suffer from the pangs of separation from her beloved.// > > > > I agree. You are correct. Let me go a bit further...The incident occurred when Ananda thero went to a well to get some water. This untouchable girl fell in love with the monk, who had attained only the 1st step, 'sothapanna' , out of the 4 steps to 'moksha'. Hence he too had all desires. Also the mother of the girl had done a 'bandhana' to get Ananda thero. Naturally Ananda had a 'crush' on this girl. Knowing this Buddha chanted 'Jalanandana Pirith', which would release Ananda from this 'bandhana'. > > > > There had been instances where Buddha went in search of untouchables who had good enough karma to attain 'moksha' , and preached dhamma to them. > > > > I checked with a learned Buddhist monk in the morning, about the chapter in Dhammapada on Brahmins. Even I was wrong there...in that particular chapter Buddha used the word brahmin to refer to fully exalted persons. But in Vasla Sutra [Discourse on Outcasts] Buddha said, > > " Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman. " > > > > I am happy to know that you are well versed with Buddha's teachings. If interested the link to Vasala Sutra is: > > > > http://www.freedhar ma.com/text/ Canon/vasala_ sutta/Thera_ Piyadassi/ 1.html > > > > blessings, > > > > Renu > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Dear Sunil ji, I agree with you. I can see the subtle difference you mention in these two cases. Lord Buddha never used force to change the caste discrimination in the society...but in his 'kingdom' there was no room for caste system. It was beautifully explained in Sir Edwin Arnold's Light of Asia...when King Suddhodhana the father of Lord Buddha saw him in yellow robes and a beggar's bowl; // Son! why is this? " " My Father! " came reply, " It is the custom of my race. " " Thy race, " Answered the King " counteth a hundred thrones From Maha Sammât, but no deed like this. " " Not of a mortal line, " the Master said, " I spake, but of descent invisible, The Buddhas who have been and who shall be:// Lord Buddha tried not to deviate from the social norms during that time, as he knew it would be an obstacle to make people apprehend his dhamma. For ex. he is said to have given different meanings to the word 'brahmin' and to many other words too, depending on the situation. Once he mentioned that 'brahma' is none other than 'mothers'. The reason was only a mother would possess [towards her children].... the noble qualities of 'Mahabrahma', namely..metta, muditha, karuna, upekka. In Dhammapada 'brahmin' means a fully exalted person. In 'Vasala Sutra' brahmin is judged by his deeds and not by his birth. He wanted to teach the society that once born as a human being anyone could become a good person if one wanted to. Lord Buddha selected King Suddhodana and Queen Mahamaya as his parents. If he was born to low caste parents, none would have accepted his dhamma. But, he was born to change this discrimination and to teach the world that everyone is the same...and anyone can attain 'moksha' if one follows the right path. In short, Buddha vividly saw the caste discrimination. He knew it was due to one's past demerits/bad kamma that one would be born to a low caste family. He knew that those untouchables suffered due to this fact. He wanted to find the cessation to this and all other sufferings of all living beings. Sorry...this is a bit too long...and hope I am clear. blessings, Renu , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Renuji, > > Namaste, > > To my understanding Lord Buddha tells us in the Vasala Sutta about who is (and should be considered as) an outcast in the real sense as observable through their actions in the present life. But in the case of the untouchable girl Lord Buddha was telling the girl that she was born in an untouchable family due to her past Karma. Though both are true, to my mind, there is a subtle difference between these two.cases. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Thu, 3/5/09, renunw <renunw wrote: > renunw <renunw > Re: An Important Matter > > Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:01 PM > > > > > > Dear Sunil ji, > > > > //Further past karma also decides where one is born. If one is born in a particular varna that is due to one's past karma. When Lord Buddha did not allow the untouchable girl to marry Ananda he told her that due the karma of her past birth she came to be born as an untouchable and she has to suffer from the pangs of separation from her beloved.// > > > > I agree. You are correct. Let me go a bit further...The incident occurred when Ananda thero went to a well to get some water. This untouchable girl fell in love with the monk, who had attained only the 1st step, 'sothapanna' , out of the 4 steps to 'moksha'. Hence he too had all desires. Also the mother of the girl had done a 'bandhana' to get Ananda thero. Naturally Ananda had a 'crush' on this girl. Knowing this Buddha chanted 'Jalanandana Pirith', which would release Ananda from this 'bandhana'. > > > > There had been instances where Buddha went in search of untouchables who had good enough karma to attain 'moksha' , and preached dhamma to them. > > > > I checked with a learned Buddhist monk in the morning, about the chapter in Dhammapada on Brahmins. Even I was wrong there...in that particular chapter Buddha used the word brahmin to refer to fully exalted persons. But in Vasla Sutra [Discourse on Outcasts] Buddha said, > > " Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman. " > > > > I am happy to know that you are well versed with Buddha's teachings. If interested the link to Vasala Sutra is: > > > > http://www.freedhar ma.com/text/ Canon/vasala_ sutta/Thera_ Piyadassi/ 1.html > > > > blessings, > > > > Renu > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Dear Renuji, Namaste, About 1300 years before Lord Buddha's birth, the Pandava king Yudhisthira told Nahusha (in Mahabharata) that a brahmin is the one who is truthful, generous, patient, virtuous and tranquil and has empathy and compassion. Yudhisthira.s definition is no different from what Lord Buddha gave. Materially speaking the brahmins are not supposed to seek the powers of a kshatriya and the wealth of a vaishya. A brahmin is supposed to devote time to intellectual pursuits and teaching. Thus we see that though originally we know that the varna system started with one's occupation one can belong to a particular varna or profession only if one has the suitable attitude, right aptitude and the required training. Past karma generally makes things easier by allowing one to take birth in a family suitable for one's nature, though there may be exceptions. So recognising the birth in a particular environment is to recognise the role of one's past karma and Lord Buddha did not want to ignore this aspect.. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 3/8/09, renunw <renunw wrote: renunw <renunw Re: An Important Matter Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009, 9:57 AM Dear Sunil ji,I agree with you. I can see the subtle difference you mention in these two cases. Lord Buddha never used force to change the caste discrimination in the society...but in his 'kingdom' there was no room for caste system. It was beautifully explained in Sir Edwin Arnold's Light of Asia...when King Suddhodhana the father of Lord Buddha saw him in yellow robes and a beggar's bowl;// Son! why is this?""My Father!" came reply,"It is the custom of my race.""Thy race,"Answered the King "counteth a hundred thronesFrom Maha Sammât, but no deed like this.""Not of a mortal line," the Master said,"I spake, but of descent invisible,The Buddhas who have been and who shall be://Lord Buddha tried not to deviate from the social norms during that time, as he knew it would be an obstacle to make people apprehend his dhamma. For ex. he is said to have given different meanings to the word 'brahmin' and to many other words too, depending on the situation. Once he mentioned that 'brahma' is none other than 'mothers'. The reason was only a mother would possess [towards her children]... . the noble qualities of 'Mahabrahma' , namely..metta, muditha, karuna, upekka. In Dhammapada 'brahmin' means a fully exalted person. In 'Vasala Sutra' brahmin is judged by his deeds and not by his birth. He wanted to teach the society that once born as a human being anyone could become a good person if one wanted to. Lord Buddha selected King Suddhodana and Queen Mahamaya as his parents. If he was born to low caste parents, none would have accepted his dhamma. But, he was born to change this discrimination and to teach the world that everyone is the same...and anyone can attain 'moksha' if one follows the right path. In short, Buddha vividly saw the caste discrimination. He knew it was due to one's past demerits/bad kamma that one would be born to a low caste family. He knew that those untouchables suffered due to this fact. He wanted to find the cessation to this and all other sufferings of all living beings. Sorry...this is a bit too long...and hope I am clear. blessings,Renuancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> Dear Renuji,> > Namaste,> > To my understanding Lord Buddha tells us in the Vasala Sutta about who is (and should be considered as) an outcast in the real sense as observable through their actions in the present life. But in the case of the untouchable girl Lord Buddha was telling the girl that she was born in an untouchable family due to her past Karma. Though both are true, to my mind, there is a subtle difference between these two.cases.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > --- On Thu, 3/5/09, renunw <renunw wrote:> renunw <renunw> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: An Important Matter> ancient_indian_ astrology> Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:01 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil ji,> > > > //Further past karma also decides where one is born. If one is born in a particular varna that is due to one's past karma. When Lord Buddha did not allow the untouchable girl to marry Ananda he told her that due the karma of her past birth she came to be born as an untouchable and she has to suffer from the pangs of separation from her beloved.//> > > > I agree. You are correct. Let me go a bit further...The incident occurred when Ananda thero went to a well to get some water. This untouchable girl fell in love with the monk, who had attained only the 1st step, 'sothapanna' , out of the 4 steps to 'moksha'. Hence he too had all desires. Also the mother of the girl had done a 'bandhana' to get Ananda thero. Naturally Ananda had a 'crush' on this girl. Knowing this Buddha chanted 'Jalanandana Pirith', which would release Ananda from this 'bandhana'. > > > > There had been instances where Buddha went in search of untouchables who had good enough karma to attain 'moksha' , and preached dhamma to them.> > > > I checked with a learned Buddhist monk in the morning, about the chapter in Dhammapada on Brahmins. Even I was wrong there...in that particular chapter Buddha used the word brahmin to refer to fully exalted persons. But in Vasla Sutra [Discourse on Outcasts] Buddha said,> > "Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman." > > > > I am happy to know that you are well versed with Buddha's teachings. If interested the link to Vasala Sutra is: > > > > http://www.freedhar ma.com/text/ Canon/vasala_ sutta/Thera_ Piyadassi/ 1.html> > > > blessings,> > > > Renu> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Dear Learned members, I have a very limited understanding of Sanskrit. My understanding tells me that word 'Varna' and 'Varana' (choice / accept or welcome) comes from same root. That would mean that people chose (varana) a particular profession based on their aptitudes. However, as most trade skills / knowledge came through father to son on lineage basis, the professions became hereditary and caste system became hereditary. Sometimes, to punish a group, the king, in connivance with Brahmins, changed the caste definition too - like the Pal kings (or was it Sen ?) of Bengal changed the caste definition of Suvarna Vanik /Subarna Banik group of Bengal to a lower caste after the group did not oblige the King by paying what was demanded off them regards chakraborty Sunil Bhattacharjya [sunil_bhattacharjya]Monday, March 09, 2009 4:27 AM Subject: Re: Re: An Important Matter Dear Renuji, Namaste, About 1300 years before Lord Buddha's birth, the Pandava king Yudhisthira told Nahusha (in Mahabharata) that a brahmin is the one who is truthful, generous, patient, virtuous and tranquil and has empathy and compassion. Yudhisthira.s definition is no different from what Lord Buddha gave. Materially speaking the brahmins are not supposed to seek the powers of a kshatriya and the wealth of a vaishya. A brahmin is supposed to devote time to intellectual pursuits and teaching. Thus we see that though originally we know that the varna system started with one's occupation one can belong to a particular varna or profession only if one has the suitable attitude, right aptitude and the required training. Past karma generally makes things easier by allowing one to take birth in a family suitable for one's nature, though there may be exceptions. So recognising the birth in a particular environment is to recognise the role of one's past karma and Lord Buddha did not want to ignore this aspect.. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Sun, 3/8/09, renunw <renunw (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: renunw <renunw (AT) (DOT) co.uk> Re: An Important Matter Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009, 9:57 AM Dear Sunil ji,I agree with you. I can see the subtle difference you mention in these two cases. Lord Buddha never used force to change the caste discrimination in the society...but in his 'kingdom' there was no room for caste system. It was beautifully explained in Sir Edwin Arnold's Light of Asia...when King Suddhodhana the father of Lord Buddha saw him in yellow robes and a beggar's bowl;// Son! why is this?""My Father!" came reply,"It is the custom of my race.""Thy race,"Answered the King "counteth a hundred thronesFrom Maha Sammât, but no deed like this.""Not of a mortal line," the Master said,"I spake, but of descent invisible,The Buddhas who have been and who shall be://Lord Buddha tried not to deviate from the social norms during that time, as he knew it would be an obstacle to make people apprehend his dhamma. For ex. he is said to have given different meanings to the word 'brahmin' and to many other words too, depending on the situation. Once he mentioned that 'brahma' is none other than 'mothers'. The reason was only a mother would possess [towards her children]... . the noble qualities of 'Mahabrahma' , namely..metta, muditha, karuna, upekka. In Dhammapada 'brahmin' means a fully exalted person. In 'Vasala Sutra' brahmin is judged by his deeds and not by his birth. He wanted to teach the society that once born as a human being anyone could become a good person if one wanted to. Lord Buddha selected King Suddhodana and Queen Mahamaya as his parents. If he was born to low caste parents, none would have accepted his dhamma. But, he was born to change this discrimination and to teach the world that everyone is the same...and anyone can attain 'moksha' if one follows the right path. In short, Buddha vividly saw the caste discrimination. He knew it was due to one's past demerits/bad kamma that one would be born to a low caste family. He knew that those untouchables suffered due to this fact. He wanted to find the cessation to this and all other sufferings of all living beings. Sorry...this is a bit too long...and hope I am clear. blessings,Renuancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:>> Dear Renuji,> > Namaste,> > To my understanding Lord Buddha tells us in the Vasala Sutta about who is (and should be considered as) an outcast in the real sense as observable through their actions in the present life. But in the case of the untouchable girl Lord Buddha was telling the girl that she was born in an untouchable family due to her past Karma. Though both are true, to my mind, there is a subtle difference between these two.cases.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > --- On Thu, 3/5/09, renunw <renunw wrote:> renunw <renunw> [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re: An Important Matter> ancient_indian_ astrology> Thursday, March 5, 2009, 11:01 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sunil ji,> > > > //Further past karma also decides where one is born. If one is born in a particular varna that is due to one's past karma. When Lord Buddha did not allow the untouchable girl to marry Ananda he told her that due the karma of her past birth she came to be born as an untouchable and she has to suffer from the pangs of separation from her beloved.//> > > > I agree. You are correct. Let me go a bit further...The incident occurred when Ananda thero went to a well to get some water. This untouchable girl fell in love with the monk, who had attained only the 1st step, 'sothapanna' , out of the 4 steps to 'moksha'. Hence he too had all desires. Also the mother of the girl had done a 'bandhana' to get Ananda thero. Naturally Ananda had a 'crush' on this girl. Knowing this Buddha chanted 'Jalanandana Pirith', which would release Ananda from this 'bandhana'. > > > > There had been instances where Buddha went in search of untouchables who had good enough karma to attain 'moksha' , and preached dhamma to them.> > > > I checked with a learned Buddhist monk in the morning, about the chapter in Dhammapada on Brahmins. Even I was wrong there...in that particular chapter Buddha used the word brahmin to refer to fully exalted persons. But in Vasla Sutra [Discourse on Outcasts] Buddha said,> > "Not by birth is one an outcast; not by birth is one a brahman. By deed one becomes an outcast, by deed one becomes an brahman." > > > > I am happy to know that you are well versed with Buddha's teachings. If interested the link to Vasala Sutra is: > > > > http://www.freedhar ma.com/text/ Canon/vasala_ sutta/Thera_ Piyadassi/ 1.html> > > > blessings,> > > > Renu>This Message was sent from Indian Oil Messaging Gateway, New Delhi, India. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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