Kambojas as Mlecchas (or Glaschas) vs Conservative Brhamnical (Vedic) people

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In the ancient times the Aryas included Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and the Shudras. By birth everybody is Shudra and depending on their aptitude some people were initiated into higher orders (of Brahmin, Kashatriya and vaishya) through appropriate education and training. Aryas considered themselves as refined and cultured people, who followed the Dharma as presctribed by the Manu-smriti in the Satyayuga and by the other smritis (written by the other sages as appropriate) in the succeeding yugas. Those, who committed did serious violation of the dharmic rules and regulations, were deprived from remaining in the Arya-fold. However, there were some, who flouted the norms of dharma but the violation of the norms were not garve enough to attract the penalty of expulsion from the Arya-fold. The latter type of people were

demoted. Some Kshatriyas such as the Sakas were Kashatriyas but were demoted. These decisions could be takeb by the Kshatriyas who were the guardians of law, though they could seek the advice of their brahmin teachers if required. There were excellent Kshatriya teachers too. In the tretayuga there was king janaka, who was a kshatriya king who even gave lessons to the great saints like Asthtavakra. In the Dwaparayuga Lord Krishna was a great teacher and he was not a Brahmin and he was considered the Purna-Brahma Avatara of God.. In Kaliyuga Lord Buddha was a teacher and he was not a Brahmin and in fact he had many Brahmin followers in his days and he was considered as an Avatara of God by the Hindus.

 

Thus it is not proper to point the finger at the Brahmanical clergy, saying that they expelled or demoted peopleor disgraced them, as most of the decisions were taken by the Kshatriyas themselves. In that respect the above article has become very biased though it started off well in the beginning.

 

Regards,

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, I appreciate your view point, especially regarding the fact that the said article is biased. There could be some points of disagreement as well. For example you state -==>Some Kshatriyas such as the Sakas were Kashatriyas but were demoted. <==But let us not forget that we are speaking about Scythians when we say Sakas. Who are Scythians?=============The Scythians were members of a nomadic people originally

OF IRANIAN STOCK WHO MIGRATED FROM CENTRAL ASIA TO SOUTHERN RUSSIA IN THE 8TH AND 7TH CENTURIES BC.

 

Centered on what is now the Crimea, the Scythians founded a rich, powerful empire that survived for several centuries before succumbing to the Sarmatians during the 4th century BC to the 2nd century AD.

 

Much of what is known of the history of the Scythians comes from the account of them by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus, who visited their territory. In modern times this record has been expanded chiefly by the work of Russian anthropologists.(from: http://history-world.org/scythians.htm )================ * Similarly when we speak about Balhikas (of Mahabharata etc) let us not forget that we are speaking about the Bactians. * Similarly when we speak about Kambojas (of Mahabharata etc) let us not forget that we are speaking about Central asian (covering current day Tajikistan, Uzbekkistan etc) people speaking a language similar to Ghalcha. Same is true for many tribes or clans mentioned in ancient literature such as Mahabharata. Whether they are Aryans, Non-Aryans or what ever seems to be a totally different question to me. As such may be we should not mix it up with terminologies such as Arya, Kshetriya (within the Vedic varnasrama concept) etc. Love and regards,Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> In the ancient times the Aryas included Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and the Shudras. By birth everybody is Shudra and depending on their aptitude some people were initiated into higher orders (of Brahmin, Kashatriya and vaishya) through appropriate education and training. Aryas considered themselves as refined and cultured people, who followed the Dharma as presctribed by the Manu-smriti in the Satyayuga and by the other smritis (written by the other sages as appropriate) in the succeeding yugas. Those, who committed did serious violation of the dharmic rules and regulations, were deprived from remaining in the Arya-fold. However, there were some, who flouted the norms of dharma but the violation of the norms were not garve enough to attract the penalty of expulsion from the Arya-fold. The latter type of people were demoted. Some Kshatriyas such as the Sakas were Kashatriyas but were demoted. These decisions could be takeb by the Kshatriyas> who were the guardians of law, though they could seek the advice of their brahmin teachers if required. There were excellent Kshatriya teachers too. In the tretayuga there was king janaka, who was a kshatriya king who even gave lessons to the great saints like Asthtavakra. In the Dwaparayuga Lord Krishna was a great teacher and he was not a Brahmin and he was considered the Purna-Brahma Avatara of God.. In Kaliyuga Lord Buddha was a teacher and he was not a Brahmin and in fact he had many Brahmin followers in his days and he was considered as an Avatara of God by the Hindus.> > Thus it is not proper to point the finger at the Brahmanical clergy, saying that they expelled or demoted peopleor disgraced them, as most of the decisions were taken by the Kshatriyas themselves. In that respect the above article has become very biased though it started off well in the beginning.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Sreenadh sreesog wrote:> > Sreenadh sreesog Kambojas as Mlecchas (or Glaschas) vs Conservative Brhamnical (Vedic) people> > Saturday, February 7, 2009, 8:06 PM> > > > > > > Dear All,> The following is from the excellent resource at: http://visualwikipe dia.com/en/ Scholarship_ among_Ancient_ Kambojas (Check it)> Love and regards,> Sreenadh> > ============ ========= ========= =====> > Kambojas vs Barbarians & Mlechchas> It is surprising that, on the one hand, the ancient literature glorifies the Kambojas as very respectable warriors and a scholarly class while on the other they are also branded as barbaric and mlechcha tribe. The resolution of this problem lies in the fact that there are different layers in the ancient Sanskrit texts which represent different phases of history. The region of ancient Punjab (or Greater Punjab) which, in the Vedic period, was known as Sapta-Sindhu had comprised territories as far as Yamuna on the east and Kabol and Hindukush on the west. During early Vedic times, this region was the center of proto-Indo-Iranian civilization. With time however, a section of this population had outspread to the east into Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. Over time, the western branch which continued to stay in Sapta-Sindhu had evolved a liberal and latitudinarian attitude to life due to its constant exposures to nomadic people of Central Asia, while the eastern> section had become somewhat conservative and traditional which they believed was the standard Aryan way. This had obviously shifted the center of Aryan (i.e.Indo-Aryan) civilization from Sapta-Sindhu to Gangetic valley. Nestling themselves into a small region variously called Madhyadesha, Aryavarta or Brahmavarta, the puritans shunned all contacts with the liberals of the greater Punjab whose way of life they regarded with disapproval. The varana-asharama- dharama had become a standard way of life for the Indo-Aryans in the east while this social system did not take roots among the frontier people. Buddhist texts like Majjhima Nikaya clearly attest that in the lands of the Yonas, Kambojas, and some other frontier countries, there were only two social classes i.e the Arya and Dasa, and that the change from one into the other was not frowned upon. The exigencies of life on the frontiers had nacessitated its people to primarily follow soldier's life.> Further, the ruling class had also started performing the religious ceremonies and sacrifices themselves. This annoyed the priestly class whose own interests were jeopardised in this new scenario. The frontier people had also parted company with the monarchic system and switched to republican constitutions where the role of priestly class was completely eliminated. Mahabharata calls the people of greater Punjab as Rajyayaka while Ashtadhyayi of Panini addresses them as Kshatriyayaka. Accordingly, Brahmanical clergy deplored that the offerings made by these people (of Punjab) to gods go in vain( and that these people knew no Vedas, Vedis and Yajnas . Hence in the eyes of orthodox people from Aryavarta, the frontier clans of north-west had become impure, immoral and irreligious, and the contacts with them were considered a heinous offence and an inexplicable sacrilege. Since the frontiers tribes ceased to avail the professional services of the priestly> class which they had started performing themselves, the irate priestly class (from Madhyadesa) started bad-mouthing Punjabis and hurling all kind of malicious words such as Mlechchas, Dasyus or Shudras etc at them. . This may explain as to why the Kambojas in some layers of ancient literature are regarded noble Kshatriyas and learned people while in others are referred to as Barbaric and Mlechcha tribes of north-west .> ============ ========= ========= =====>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji,

 

Yes, there is disagreement and the best we can do is to agree to disagree. I am of the school that believes that though we all came from Africa 40,000 years ago, all those who went to Europe, before the Ice-age, perished. After the Ice-age was over in the 11th millennium BCE, India had the best habitable climatic conditions in the world, thanks to the strategic location of the Himalayas in the North , the seas to the south and its nearness to the equator, all combined.. Patanjali said "Sthiram Sukham Asanam" as one of the prerequisites for developing concentration. It also follows from the same that intellectual development also requires a comfortable habitat and India offered that to its intellectuals . It is because of this that the People survived and multiplied in India and the Arya civilisation flourished in India before any other civilisation developed in the ancient times, going back

upto around the 10th millennium BCE. Ancient texts are full of references showing that people went out of India. Yayati, an ancient king who had capital near Prayag (Allahabad), had several children who left his kingdom and went away to far off places. Parashurama had sent away the warrior groups like the Sakas from India, in the ancient times. These Sakas did come back and some historians think that the Sakas are originaslly from outside of India.

 

Regards,

[Guest guest]

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, ==>> I am of the school that believes that though we all came from Africa 40,000 years ago<== Yes, that could be true. But considering the ancient Asian interactions it seems that many went from India to outside and many from outside (especially from Russian, Iranian region) came to India as well. Please note that Scythian (Saka; Central Russia), Bactian (Balhika), Tajikistan (Kamboja), Iranian and Afghanistan (Asuras and Pahlava) are all mostly centered around Russia and Iran. I am not in favor of too much Babylonion, Asserian or Semittic (Abraham tribe) interactions with India. Mascidonian Greek interactions lies somewhere in between it seems - not too much, not too less. There is a possibility of ancient Ionian or minnovan interactions than the mascidonian greeks. ==>> Ancient texts are full of references showing that people went out of India.<== References of the otherway round is also not less. We cannot discard the possibility of modifications and interpretations specially in favor of India as well. Love and regards,Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Sreenadhji,> > Yes, there is disagreement and the best we can do is to agree to disagree. I am of the school that believes that though we all came from Africa 40,000 years ago, all those who went to Europe, before the Ice-age, perished. After the Ice-age was over in the 11th millennium BCE, India had the best habitable climatic conditions in the world, thanks to the strategic location of the Himalayas in the North , the seas to the south and its nearness to the equator, all combined.. Patanjali said "Sthiram Sukham Asanam" as one of the prerequisites for developing concentration. It also follows from the same that intellectual development also requires a comfortable habitat and India offered that to its intellectuals . It is because of this that the People survived and multiplied in India and the Arya civilisation flourished in India before any other civilisation developed in the ancient times, going back upto around the 10th millennium BCE. Ancient texts> are full of references showing that people went out of India. Yayati, an ancient king who had capital near Prayag (Allahabad), had several children who left his kingdom and went away to far off places. Parashurama had sent away the warrior groups like the Sakas from India, in the ancient times. These Sakas did come back and some historians think that the Sakas are originaslly from outside of India.> > Regards,> > Sunil K. bhattacharjya>