Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, What I mentioned was the you are NOT looking at the said quote, based on the base principle of Kaula Tantra, which is - "Ereva patanam dravyaiH siddhistaireva chodita Sre Kaula darsane chapi Bhairavena mahatmana" (Kularnava Tantra - 5/48)[Due to what ever things fall can happen, the same can be used to attain elightenment as well. Both Kaula Darsana and Maha Bhairava are elaborating this base principle] It is a simple and obvious psychological principle. You ask one who is trying to deadict alcoholics - "Whether it is easy to deadict a full druncard or an occational drinker"? What would be the answer based on true experience? You ask one - "how to know about the bad effects of fire, it's hard burns?" - which is the preferable path to take? By reading tones of ethic books? By reading a whole lot about the bad effects of fire? Or is it just by touching fire once and thus know it by experiencing? What do you say - Where the pudding would be? So, it was what Kaula Tanta and Maha Bhairava is telling - a simple and straight truth. But the many not knowing don't want to see this fact, since they are blinded by too much booking knowledge about Vedas, Yagas, Chatruvarnya and what not!!! This was one of the simple mistakes - I wanted to point to. Now second coming to Bhagavat Gita - Do you think it as a Vedic Brahmanic text or text of some other tradition/school of thought? Try to answer based on the clear logic, data, arguments and explanation put forward by Bala Gangadhara Tilak in his book Geeta Rahasya. Hope, I am making some more points clear. :)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "vinayjhaa16" <vinayjhaa16 wrote:>> I had said : "Even the peetvaa.. shloka is positively translated by a> vaishnava." There are all types of tantrics, good and bad. I am> pointing fingers at the bad guys. If you feel offended, I apologize> again. > But I am not going to change my views, nor will you. It is only a Word> Of God that has the power to change human heart.> Sincerely,> -VJ> > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear Vinay ji,> > The underlying principle of Pancha Makara methods discussed in> > Kularnava Tantra is quoted in the preface of the available transilation> > of that book itself - why don't you quote that as well. And look at the> > quote given by you in the light of that quote?! I hope, if you did so,> > your opinion will change. Hope see that quote also from you. > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > , "vinayjhaa16"> > <vinayjhaa16@> wrote:> > >> > > Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself :> > >> > > "Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale;> > > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate !"> > >> > > Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim.> > > Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in God.> > > Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine.> > >> > > There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri Tantra> > > was practised by demon-worsh-ppers. What Meghnada was doing with> > > Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing some> > > religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a> > > devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy.> > >> > > There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc in> > > Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is Asurakota.> > > Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of> > > Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the rules> > > of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta texts> > > used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which> > > invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is> > slayed!> > >> > > Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during most> > > of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra stotras> > > for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-),> > > ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed the> > > real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates).> > >> > > I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad tantric> > > mantras. Even the "peetvaa.." shloka is positively translated by a> > > vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am> > > concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in astrology.> > >> > > -VJ> > >> > >> > >> > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya> > > sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Vinayji,> > > >> > > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory> > > Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad> > > name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why> > > the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should> > > practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word "Kaula" itself> > > comes from the word "Kula", which means family. Others can practice> > > tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing> > > age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason.> > > These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the> > > fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in> > > the past and that created a bad image for Tantra.> > > >> > > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a> > > commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote> > > Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the> > > rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara.> > > >> > > > Regards,> > > >> > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > >> > > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > > >> > > > vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@> > > > Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology> > > > > > > > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his> > > generous response.> > > >> > > > For Shakadvipis, see> > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya> > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira> > > > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first> > > link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis.> > > >> > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in> > > Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source> > > of this legend.> > > >> > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was> > > Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati.> > > 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of> > > the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them> > > to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric> > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra,> > > like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate relates> > > to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites> > > like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to> > > Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala> > tantras.> > > >> > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana> > > in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two> > > schools have been created by modern authors.> > > >> > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for Indian> > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning> > > of Tropical. I will elaborate it further.> > > >> > > > -VJ> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Vinay ji,> > > > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > > > ==>> > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati> > > was a> > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the> > treatise ;> > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when> > Narapati's> > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> > > eulogies> > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> > > suggest him> > > > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > > > <==> > > > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and> > the> > > > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book> > Narapati> > > > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him.> > > > > ==>> > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > > > <==> > > > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative> > argument> > > > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and> > > > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was> > > > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - "Seriously> > > Tantra> > > > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology?".> > > So I> > > > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > > > ==>> > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read.> > > > > <==> > > > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of> > > > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the> > > > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give> > > more> > > > > light about the line of argument:> > > > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology> > > Chandra> > > > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf> > > > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology> > > Chandra% 20\> > > > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf>> > > > >> > > > > ==>> > > > > > Varah> > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him> > > even> > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had> > gone> > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > > > <==> > > > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this> > > > > information is totally new to me. What about the word "Kapitthala"> > > - is> > > > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the> > name> > > > > "Shakaldvipi" (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ?> > > > > ==>> > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title> > is> > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > > > <==> > > > > OK - Possible.> > > > > ==>> > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> > > Kashmiri> > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were> > Tantric> > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > > > <==> > > > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to> > > > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric> > idol> > > > > worship, temple worship etc.> > > > > ==>> > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and> > tropical> > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in> > Vedic> > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant> > colonialist> > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and> > wanted to> > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E> > > > > <==> > > > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak> > > > > otherwise.> > > > > ==>> > > > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise,> > sunset,> > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and> > > other> > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology> > > even> > > > > > in the nirayana school.> > > > > <==> > > > > Agree.> > > > > ==>> > > > > > Completely tropical astrology was never> > > > > > practised in India by anyone.> > > > > <==> > > > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana> > > > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and> > > > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better> > to> > > > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory.> > > > > ==>> > > > > > If nirayana system is completely> > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the> > West.> > > > > <==> > > > > Agree.> > > > >> > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from> > that> > > > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are> > > > > thirsty. > > > > >> > > > > Love and Hugs,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "vinayjhaa16"> > > > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post.> > > > > >> > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati> > > was a> > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the> > treatise ;> > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when> > Narapati's> > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> > > eulogies> > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> > > suggest him> > > > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > > > >> > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > > > >> > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read.> > Varah> > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him> > > even> > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had> > gone> > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > > > >> > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title> > is> > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > > > >> > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> > > Kashmiri> > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were> > Tantric> > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > > > >> > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and> > tropical> > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in> > Vedic> > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant> > colonialist> > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and> > wanted to> > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school,> > tropical> > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise,> > sunset,> > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and> > > other> > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology> > > even> > > > > > in the nirayana school.> > > > > >> > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions> > > > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands> > :> > > > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never> > > > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely> > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the> > West.> > > > > >> > > > > > -VJ> > > > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ =========> > > > > >> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Sreenadh"> > <sreesog@>> > > > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th> > > > > > > century authentic text on astrology named "Narapati> > Jayacharya".> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam> > > > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam> > > > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam> > > > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam> > > > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim> > > > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha> > > > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha> > > > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale> > > > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana> > > > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya> > > > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century> > > > > AD)> > > > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after> > > referring> > > > > to> > > > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as -> > firstly> > > > > the 7> > > > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi> > > Yamala,> > > > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric> > > texts> > > > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam,> > > Rakshokhnam,> > > > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala> > > etc]> > > > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati> > > > > Jayacharya> > > > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?!> > > > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the> > long> > > > > list> > > > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk??> > > > > > > Yap,> > > > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from> > > > > ancient> > > > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha> > > > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka> > hora,> > > > > Surya> > > > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available> > > > > quotes to> > > > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do> > not> > > > > provide> > > > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept> > or> > > > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So> > > let us> > > > > go> > > > > > > by the datable and available texts.> > > > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known> > as> > > > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas> > > > > settled> > > > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.> > > > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well> > proved> > > > > by> > > > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a> > > Jain, and> > > > > also> > > > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his> > > > > father's> > > > > > > name is "Aditya Dasa". The Vedic brahmins does not use a name> > that> > > > > ends> > > > > > > in the word "Dasa" (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per> > > > > Sanskrit> > > > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner> > > who come> > > > > and> > > > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and> > > > > Mihira> > > > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins.> > > > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali> > > > > from> > > > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir,> > > Narapati the> > > > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain.> > > > > Kalyana> > > > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests -> > > evidently a> > > > > not> > > > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower -> > > > > evidently> > > > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as> > evident> > > > > from> > > > > > > the quote I provided above.> > > > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from> > > > > > Orissa.> > > > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king> > > and a> > > > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -> > > > > > >> > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin,> > > > > certainly> > > > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was> > never> > > > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins!> > > > > > >> > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not,> > certainly> > > > > > it was> > > > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never> > supported> > > > > by> > > > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva> > > > > Parisishta,> > > > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate> > proofs> > > > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it> > > is well> > > > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic> > Brahmins;> > > > > no> > > > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!]> > > > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > >> > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Sreenadh"> > <sreesog@>> > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers> > for> > > > > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to> > act> > > > > it.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that> > there is> > > > > scope> > > > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ========> > > > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya> > > > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= ===The> > > available> > > > > text> > > > > > > on> > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters> > and> > > > > 160> > > > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas "Siromani", meaning "gem> > > in the> > > > > > > head'.> > > > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara> > > (lord> > > > > > > Siva)> > > > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala> > Mantra> > > > > > > (Medicine)> > > > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge> > > streams the> > > > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala> > > Mantra is> > > > > the> > > > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related> > > to the> > > > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others,> > > > > attracting> > > > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave> > > their> > > > > > > native> > > > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability> > etc.> > > > > Yes,> > > > > > > it> > > > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands> > of> > > > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along> > > with gem> > > > > > > like> > > > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the> > > > > branch> > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of> > > knowing> > > > > > > about> > > > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these two> > (Kala> > > > > Tantra> > > > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in> > the> > > > > > > available> > > > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use> > > > > medicine> > > > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma> > > > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana)> > > etc.> > > > > But> > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra> > > (Astrology)> > > > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of> > > > > medicine> > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal> > > > > plants> > > > > > > are> > > > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served> > some> > > > > secret> > > > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric> > culture.> > > > > Tantra> > > > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have> > been> > > > > the> > > > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even> > > though in> > > > > the> > > > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa> > etc]> > > > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and> > > > > KalaTantra,> > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly> > > with> > > > > > > Kala> > > > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with> > Kala> > > > > > > Tantra> > > > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.> > > > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva> > > > > > > -"Approaching> > > > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher> > of> > > > > all> > > > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly,> > with> > > > > > > folded> > > > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the> > devotees> > > > > > > please> > > > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra" In the same> > > > > style> > > > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well> > > from> > > > > lord> > > > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra> > > (Astrology)> > > > > as> > > > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because> > > > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text,> > can be> > > > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this> > > > > conclusion.> > > > > > > As> > > > > > > > mentioned earlier, "Siromani" (gem in thehead) is another> > > name for> > > > > > > this> > > > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas "gem in the head"> > > by the> > > > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha-> > > > > "Like> > > > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a> > cobra,> > > > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem)"> > > > > > > > Yes, the praise "gem in the head" usually goes to KalaTantra> > -> > > > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because> > ofthis> > > > > even> > > > > > > > the other name "Siromani" of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicate> > > s that> > > > > Kala> > > > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text.> > But> > > > > that> > > > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.> > > > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument.> > > Dattatreyagives> > > > > a> > > > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra> > atthe> > > > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are> > > mentioned,but> > > > > only> > > > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in> > theprinted> > > > > text.> > > > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 chapters)seems> > > to be> > > > > > > missing.> > > > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya> > Mahatantra> > > > > is an> > > > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question> > > > > > > > rises, "Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to> > learn> > > > > from> > > > > > > lord> > > > > > > > Siva?" No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that> > > could> > > > > be> > > > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc,> > he> > > > > might> > > > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be> > > made> > > > > use> > > > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva-> > > > > > > "In> > > > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships> > are> > > > > present.> > > > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara,> > and in> > > > > many> > > > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala> > Tantra> > > > > that> > > > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra> > etc)> > > > > 'in> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions" This is what> > > > > Dattatreya> > > > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine> > > > > > > (Kala> > > > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is> > > > > Shadkarma> > > > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This> > > knowledge> > > > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya> > > > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and> > > > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'.> > > > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word> > > Puranahere> > > > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda> > > > > hereindicates> > > > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called> > Brahmana,Aaranyaka,> > > > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor> > > > > Tantric> > > > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So> > thestatement> > > > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra> > > > > (Agama)> > > > > > > and> > > > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is> > Vishnava> > > > > > > Tantra.> > > > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request> > of> > > > > > > Dattatreya> > > > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and> > > teach him> > > > > the> > > > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is> > beneficial> > > > > for> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.> > > > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in> > acorrupted> > > > > state at> > > > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it> > was> > > > > very> > > > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the> > > pile.> > > > > The> > > > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and> > > > > Puranas> > > > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from> > > Tantrics and> > > > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the> > > > > pain of> > > > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge> > is> > > > > > > becoming> > > > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the> > > > > heritage of> > > > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - "This great> > > > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who> > > devotes> > > > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for> > davas,> > > > > first> > > > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret> > > > > knowledge> > > > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true> > > > > devotee of> > > > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons> > > who does> > > > > not> > > > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge.> > One> > > > > should> > > > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong> > > willed and> > > > > is> > > > > > > a> > > > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone" The statement,> > > > > "Astrology is> > > > > > > > originated from lord Siva"(Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for> > > special> > > > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century)> > this> > > > > truth> > > > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read> > > horoscope,> > > > > or> > > > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara> > (Siva).> > > > > This> > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in> > the> > > > > form> > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the> > ultimate> > > > > Guru> > > > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric> > tradition.> > > > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we> > considerthe> > > > > concept> > > > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of> > > > > > > astrology,> > > > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma> > > > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva> > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda> > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma> > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in> > concept> > > > > about> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are> > all> > > > > > > different> > > > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated> > and> > > > > existed> > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as> > > Rasi> > > > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed> > > in a> > > > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic> > concepts> > > > > such> > > > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some> > > > > > > othercivilization> > > > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as> > > > > theSindhu-Saraswati> > > > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could> > > prove> > > > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not.> > > > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the> > astrologicalcontent in> > > > > the> > > > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go> > back> > > > > to> > > > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines> > > could be> > > > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells> > > > > Dattatreya -> > > > > > > > "Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial> > forthe> > > > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on> > > > > medicine)which> > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you,> > > puttingaside> > > > > the> > > > > > > > knowledge of astrology"Because - "(For the benefit> > > > > with> > > > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra,> > > Vreta,> > > > > Day,> > > > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an> > auspicious> > > > > muhoorta> > > > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits> > > well for> > > > > the> > > > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of> > it> > > > > the> > > > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their> > effect> > > > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use> > > these> > > > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice> > > > > lord> > > > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since> > those> > > > > slokas> > > > > > > are> > > > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If> > > anyone> > > > > is> > > > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya> > Mahatantra> > > > > to> > > > > > > know> > > > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the> > > > > available> > > > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology).> > The> > > > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed.> > Siva> > > > > said:> > > > > > > > "Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of> > > > > humanbeings I> > > > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen"> > Dwadesa> > > > > dala> > > > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa> > sankhayani> > > > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi> > likhyate> > > > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya> > > vedhe> > > > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve> > cha> > > > > chandre> > > > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase> > > vicharayete> > > > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra)" From the Rasichakra with 12 petals,> > > we can> > > > > > > have> > > > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the> > > numbers of> > > > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In> > > each of> > > > > the> > > > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current> > > > > planetary> > > > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc> > in> > > > > the> > > > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects> > > (Drishti)> > > > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time.> > If> > > > > Vedha> > > > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness,> > > > > forJupiter> > > > > > > -> > > > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen,> > for> > > > > Venus> > > > > > > -> > > > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done> > every> > > > > month"> > > > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha> > > > > ismentioned> > > > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and> > RasiVedha> > > > > is> > > > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for> > KalaMrityu> > > > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka> > > > > was> > > > > > > a> > > > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will> > > explain.(1)> > > > > > > > Mention of months starting from> > > > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- ---------> > > > > Why it> > > > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite> > > down the> > > > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in> > each> > > > > > > square> > > > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that -> > > > > Chaitra> > > > > > > => > > > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ?> > > > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should> > > > > > > becalculated,> > > > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint> > > 180 deg> > > > > > > away> > > > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe> > like?(2)> > > > > Mrityu> > > > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn> > > > > mentioned> > > > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings "Janma> > riksha> > > > > janma> > > > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare" , directlymentioning Saturn> > would> > > > > have> > > > > > > been> > > > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning> > > > > Saturn> > > > > > > and> > > > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ?> > > > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should> > beconsidered,> > > > > then> > > > > > > what> > > > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) Riksha> > -> > > > > Nakshatra> > > > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word> > > > > Riksha> > > > > > > has> > > > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma> > Riksha> > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna> > > sign, Moon> > > > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha> > > > > > > represents> > > > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider> > both> > > > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination?> > > How to> > > > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary> > context?(4)> > > > > Vedha> > > > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- ---------> > > -------> > > > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it> > issaid> > > > > that> > > > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory> > tothe> > > > > Vedha> > > > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many> > typesof> > > > > Vedha is> > > > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha> > andGraha> > > > > Vedha> > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved> > while> > > > > > > predicting> > > > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or> > > > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha> > > > > system> > > > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase> > mase> > > > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit> > > > > should be> > > > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he> > > > > avoided> > > > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and> > > > > Ketu?(6)> > > > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- ---------> > -> > > > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the> > personwho> > > > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here> > > weencounter> > > > > a> > > > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould> > we> > > > > > > observe> > > > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated> > after> > > > > > > Sripati> > > > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed> > the> > > > > > > concept> > > > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya> > > Tantra?> > > > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to> > > findanswers> > > > > to> > > > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of> > > theastrology> > > > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must.> > > > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we> > canclassify> > > > > them> > > > > > > into> > > > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati> > period> > > > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas> > and> > > > > allied> > > > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned Epics> > > (Epic> > > > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic> > > > > Astrology)(v)> > > > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) -> > Itis> > > > > the> > > > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a> > > > > wholesecret> > > > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology> > of> > > > > Arsha> > > > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological> > texts.> > > > > This> > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with> > Skanda> > > > > Hora,> > > > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The> > acharyas> > > > > in> > > > > > > this> > > > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta,> > Kousika,> > > > > Sounaka> > > > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'.> > (Arsha> > > > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of> > > > > thought](vii)> > > > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in> > variousancient> > > > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in> > > > > Indianastrology> > > > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas> > in> > > > > this> > > > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of> > > course> > > > > > > there> > > > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and> > > Parasara. But> > > > > > > books> > > > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am> > not> > > > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a> > single> > > > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of> > > any of> > > > > the> > > > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available> > for> > > > > > > research!> > > > > > > > They are requesting tous, "please, please, come forward and> > > reveal> > > > > the> > > > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you..." All this ancient knowledge> > on> > > > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half> > forgotten,> > > > > > > unexplored> > > > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,> > > > > > > > "TamasomaJyotirgama ya...". Yes, there is a large amount of> > work> > > > > > > pending,> > > > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge> > is> > > > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower> > > their> > > > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are> > truly> > > > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin> > our> > > > > search> > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is> > > > > child's> > > > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be> > explored!> > > > > Let> > > > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the> > > all,> > > > > > > forthe> > > > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love,> > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ========> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Bhadraiah> > > Mallampalli"> > > > > > > > vaidix@ wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar,> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of> > interest.> > > > > That> > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give> > > > > *everything*> > > > > > > its> > > > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > "Veda" is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is> > the> > > > > > > > > equivalent of "papers" published by scientists or> > > > > mathematicians. A> > > > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed> > by> > > > > the> > > > > > > > > author. The "journal" is the compilation of such articles> > and> > > > > can be> > > > > > > > > called "veda" in the modern sense.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific> > > documents are> > > > > not> > > > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted> > > results> > > > > (we> > > > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To> > > > > discard> > > > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the> > > unpublished> > > > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda)> > is> > > > > stupid.> > > > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of> > > relativity from> > > > > > > > > Newton's works.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't> > > > > understand> > > > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the> > > total> > > > > > > Vedic> > > > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed> > > (well,> > > > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each> > > veda> > > > > are> > > > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda> > > > > > > > > as "tantra" because we can hardly understand anything in> > it.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers> > for> > > > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out> > of> > > > > > > > > it. "Vedic" astrology is beyond visibility for now, and> > > > > > > inconceivable> > > > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some> > universal> > > > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted> > > > > completely> > > > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim> > of> > > > > > > > > astrology as a veda.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 This topic about Tantric Astrology has been inadvertently diverted to Wine. The next step is, I think Mudra and then Mithuna. No one is interested in use of Tantra in astrology, on which I devoted long years, and you call me ignorant in Tantra. I disagree at one point. It is not the best method to learn about fire only by means of getting burnt. The real purpose of vamamargi tantra was not to illumine people about the negative attributes of wine, but the contrary... Supporters of wine (and women) will outnumber fools like me, hence I do not want to engage in such topics in a democratic age. -VJ , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Vinay ji, > What I mentioned was the you are NOT looking at the said quote, > based on the base principle of Kaula Tantra, which is - > " Ereva patanam dravyaiH siddhistaireva chodita > Sre Kaula darsane chapi Bhairavena mahatmana " > (Kularnava Tantra - 5/48) > [Due to what ever things fall can happen, the same can be used to attain > elightenment as well. Both Kaula Darsana and Maha Bhairava are > elaborating this base principle] > It is a simple and obvious psychological principle. > You ask one who is trying to deadict alcoholics - " Whether it is easy > to deadict a full druncard or an occational drinker " ? What would be the > answer based on true experience? > You ask one - " how to know about the bad effects of fire, it's hard > burns? " - which is the preferable path to take? By reading tones of > ethic books? By reading a whole lot about the bad effects of fire? Or is > it just by touching fire once and thus know it by experiencing? > What do you say - Where the pudding would be? > So, it was what Kaula Tanta and Maha Bhairava is telling - a simple > and straight truth. But the many not knowing don't want to see this > fact, since they are blinded by too much booking knowledge about Vedas, > Yagas, Chatruvarnya and what not!!! > This was one of the simple mistakes - I wanted to point to. > > Now second coming to Bhagavat Gita - > Do you think it as a Vedic Brahmanic text or text of some other > tradition/school of thought? Try to answer based on the clear logic, > data, arguments and explanation put forward by Bala Gangadhara Tilak in > his book Geeta Rahasya. Hope, I am making some more points clear. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, It is natural for most of us to be interested in wine,women and maithuna ( Not mithuna ) because we are sansaarik. But I am really amazed to know that you have spent many years in Tantra, can do so much Pranayama in few hours, and also know a good deal of astronomy alongwith the Shastric references. But I would be interested for the present in the positive effects of wine, which you were about to relate us but declined subsequentally. I think Kaulji is the right match for you to rub , and the rest of the members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and wits, so you must be a little soft towards them. What is your views on the Rubaiyat of Omar Khaiyyam ? regards, Bhaskar. , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > This topic about Tantric Astrology has been inadvertently diverted to > Wine. The next step is, I think Mudra and then Mithuna. No one is > interested in use of Tantra in astrology, on which I devoted long > years, and you call me ignorant in Tantra. > > I disagree at one point. It is not the best method to learn about fire > only by means of getting burnt. The real purpose of vamamargi tantra > was not to illumine people about the negative attributes of wine, but > the contrary... > > Supporters of wine (and women) will outnumber fools like me, hence I > do not want to engage in such topics in a democratic age. > > -VJ > > > > , " Sreenadh " > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > What I mentioned was the you are NOT looking at the said quote, > > based on the base principle of Kaula Tantra, which is - > > " Ereva patanam dravyaiH siddhistaireva chodita > > Sre Kaula darsane chapi Bhairavena mahatmana " > > (Kularnava Tantra - 5/48) > > [Due to what ever things fall can happen, the same can be used to attain > > elightenment as well. Both Kaula Darsana and Maha Bhairava are > > elaborating this base principle] > > It is a simple and obvious psychological principle. > > You ask one who is trying to deadict alcoholics - " Whether it is > easy > > to deadict a full druncard or an occational drinker " ? What would be the > > answer based on true experience? > > You ask one - " how to know about the bad effects of fire, it's hard > > burns? " - which is the preferable path to take? By reading tones of > > ethic books? By reading a whole lot about the bad effects of fire? Or is > > it just by touching fire once and thus know it by experiencing? > > What do you say - Where the pudding would be? > > So, it was what Kaula Tanta and Maha Bhairava is telling - a simple > > and straight truth. But the many not knowing don't want to see this > > fact, since they are blinded by too much booking knowledge about Vedas, > > Yagas, Chatruvarnya and what not!!! > > This was one of the simple mistakes - I wanted to point to. > > > > Now second coming to Bhagavat Gita - > > Do you think it as a Vedic Brahmanic text or text of some other > > tradition/school of thought? Try to answer based on the clear logic, > > data, arguments and explanation put forward by Bala Gangadhara Tilak in > > his book Geeta Rahasya. Hope, I am making some more points clear. > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Bhaskar jee got the opposite sense of my unfinished sentence : " The real purpose of vamamargi tantra was not to illumine people about the negative attributes of wine, but the contrary...(to indulge in an orgy of sensory pleasures which is against Vedic philosophy) " . I did not want to finish this sentence, because all supporters of vamamarga will gang up against me and any discussion about astrology will cease. I never practiced vamamarga, although I read many of its texts. Vedic Tantra is something different. Worldly persons will never be able to suffer so much pains which is necessary for performing tapasya, which is what all rishis did. I adhere to the ways of my real ancestors (Vedic rishis) as far as possible and try my best to live according to their rules and regulations. I gave up all spices, chilli and salt in food 11 years ago, I perform shavaasana whole night, I take one meal a day (lifelong ekabhukta vrata), etc, and I am fulfilling my oath of lifelong brahmacharya. In addition to such things, if you undertake some excruciating tapasya, you will get Vedic Tantra without asking for it. One who directly strives for tantric powers (siddhis) is doomed. Vedic Tantra ( = Yoga ) is the technique of destroying the Unconscious Mind and rising up in the Kundalini towards real self discovery and communion with the formless universal Spirit ( = Saamkhya ; na hi saamkhya samam jnaanam..., Gita). I am not against any member of this or any forum, including Kaul jee. But defence of Shaastra is my duty. Personal prestige has no place in a Shaastraartha , because Shaastraartha means " elucidation of the meaning (artha) of Shastras " . If someone feels hurt, I beg apology. The aim of Shaastraartha is not to belittle any person, because all persons are incarnations of God, although sunk in unconsciousness. -VJ ________________________________ Bhaskar <rajiventerprises Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:20:56 PM Re: Kularnava Tantra and Bhagavat Geeta Dear Vinay ji, It is natural for most of us to be interested in wine,women and maithuna ( Not mithuna ) because we are sansaarik. But I am really amazed to know that you have spent many years in Tantra, can do so much Pranayama in few hours, and also know a good deal of astronomy alongwith the Shastric references. But I would be interested for the present in the positive effects of wine, which you were about to relate us but declined subsequentally. I think Kaulji is the right match for you to rub , and the rest of the members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and wits, so you must be a little soft towards them. What is your views on the Rubaiyat of Omar Khaiyyam ? regards, Bhaskar. ancient_indian_ astrology, " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > This topic about Tantric Astrology has been inadvertently diverted to > Wine. The next step is, I think Mudra and then Mithuna. No one is > interested in use of Tantra in astrology, on which I devoted long > years, and you call me ignorant in Tantra. > > I disagree at one point. It is not the best method to learn about fire > only by means of getting burnt. The real purpose of vamamargi tantra > was not to illumine people about the negative attributes of wine, but > the contrary... > > Supporters of wine (and women) will outnumber fools like me, hence I > do not want to engage in such topics in a democratic age. > > -VJ > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > What I mentioned was the you are NOT looking at the said quote, > > based on the base principle of Kaula Tantra, which is - > > " Ereva patanam dravyaiH siddhistaireva chodita > > Sre Kaula darsane chapi Bhairavena mahatmana " > > (Kularnava Tantra - 5/48) > > [Due to what ever things fall can happen, the same can be used to attain > > elightenment as well. Both Kaula Darsana and Maha Bhairava are > > elaborating this base principle] > > It is a simple and obvious psychological principle. > > You ask one who is trying to deadict alcoholics - " Whether it is > easy > > to deadict a full druncard or an occational drinker " ? What would be the > > answer based on true experience? > > You ask one - " how to know about the bad effects of fire, it's hard > > burns? " - which is the preferable path to take? By reading tones of > > ethic books? By reading a whole lot about the bad effects of fire? Or is > > it just by touching fire once and thus know it by experiencing? > > What do you say - Where the pudding would be? > > So, it was what Kaula Tanta and Maha Bhairava is telling - a simple > > and straight truth. But the many not knowing don't want to see this > > fact, since they are blinded by too much booking knowledge about Vedas, > > Yagas, Chatruvarnya and what not!!! > > This was one of the simple mistakes - I wanted to point to. > > > > Now second coming to Bhagavat Gita - > > Do you think it as a Vedic Brahmanic text or text of some other > > tradition/school of thought? Try to answer based on the clear logic, > > data, arguments and explanation put forward by Bala Gangadhara Tilak in > > his book Geeta Rahasya. Hope, I am making some more points clear. > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, ==> This topic about Tantric Astrology has been inadvertently diverted to Wine. The next step is, I think Mudra and then Mithuna.<== Don't you remember that - neither wine nor mithuna is alien to tantra or astrology? Hope you have heard the slokas - * Kujentu hetu pratimasam artavam :- the monthly menses is caused by Mars and Moon. * Yathasta rasi mithunam sameti tathaiva vachyo mithuna prayoga :- How ever the 7th house be, like that would be the intercouse. * Jatastaulini soudhikodhva nirato - If sun in 7th he would be interested in wine (alcohole) etc? May be it is time that - we take a look at all the above things mentioned, whether in tantric or astrological perspective. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "vinayjhaa16" <vinayjhaa16 wrote:>> This topic about Tantric Astrology has been inadvertently diverted to> Wine. The next step is, I think Mudra and then Mithuna. No one is> interested in use of Tantra in astrology, on which I devoted long> years, and you call me ignorant in Tantra.> > I disagree at one point. It is not the best method to learn about fire> only by means of getting burnt. The real purpose of vamamargi tantra> was not to illumine people about the negative attributes of wine, but> the contrary...> > Supporters of wine (and women) will outnumber fools like me, hence I> do not want to engage in such topics in a democratic age.> > -VJ> > > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear Vinay ji,> > What I mentioned was the you are NOT looking at the said quote,> > based on the base principle of Kaula Tantra, which is -> > "Ereva patanam dravyaiH siddhistaireva chodita> > Sre Kaula darsane chapi Bhairavena mahatmana"> > (Kularnava Tantra - 5/48)> > [Due to what ever things fall can happen, the same can be used to attain> > elightenment as well. Both Kaula Darsana and Maha Bhairava are> > elaborating this base principle]> > It is a simple and obvious psychological principle. > > You ask one who is trying to deadict alcoholics - "Whether it is> easy> > to deadict a full druncard or an occational drinker"? What would be the> > answer based on true experience?> > You ask one - "how to know about the bad effects of fire, it's hard> > burns?" - which is the preferable path to take? By reading tones of> > ethic books? By reading a whole lot about the bad effects of fire? Or is> > it just by touching fire once and thus know it by experiencing?> > What do you say - Where the pudding would be? > > So, it was what Kaula Tanta and Maha Bhairava is telling - a simple> > and straight truth. But the many not knowing don't want to see this> > fact, since they are blinded by too much booking knowledge about Vedas,> > Yagas, Chatruvarnya and what not!!!> > This was one of the simple mistakes - I wanted to point to. > >> > Now second coming to Bhagavat Gita -> > Do you think it as a Vedic Brahmanic text or text of some other> > tradition/school of thought? Try to answer based on the clear logic,> > data, arguments and explanation put forward by Bala Gangadhara Tilak in> > his book Geeta Rahasya. Hope, I am making some more points clear. > > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Bhaskar ji, ==> I think Kaulji is the right match for you to rub , and the rest of the members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and wits, so you must be a little soft towards them.<== Oh!!! But unfortunately Kaul ji is not a member of this group right now. Any way - I agree to Bhaskar jis statement that - "the rest of the members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and wits, so you must be a little soft towards US" Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Bhaskar" <rajiventerprises wrote:>> > Dear Vinay ji,> > It is natural for most of us to be interested in wine,women and maithuna> ( Not mithuna ) because we are sansaarik.> > But I am really amazed to know that you have spent many years in Tantra,> can do so much Pranayama in few hours, and also know a good deal of> astronomy alongwith the Shastric references.> > But I would be interested for the present in the positive effects of> wine, which you were about to relate us but declined subsequentally.> > I think Kaulji is the right match for you to rub , and the rest of the> members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and wits,> so you must be a little soft towards them.> > What is your views on the Rubaiyat of Omar Khaiyyam ?> > regards,> > Bhaskar.> > > > > > > , "vinayjhaa16"> vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> >> > This topic about Tantric Astrology has been inadvertently diverted to> > Wine. The next step is, I think Mudra and then Mithuna. No one is> > interested in use of Tantra in astrology, on which I devoted long> > years, and you call me ignorant in Tantra.> >> > I disagree at one point. It is not the best method to learn about fire> > only by means of getting burnt. The real purpose of vamamargi tantra> > was not to illumine people about the negative attributes of wine, but> > the contrary...> >> > Supporters of wine (and women) will outnumber fools like me, hence I> > do not want to engage in such topics in a democratic age.> >> > -VJ> >> >> >> > , "Sreenadh"> > sreesog@ wrote:> > >> > > Dear Vinay ji,> > > What I mentioned was the you are NOT looking at the said quote,> > > based on the base principle of Kaula Tantra, which is -> > > "Ereva patanam dravyaiH siddhistaireva chodita> > > Sre Kaula darsane chapi Bhairavena mahatmana"> > > (Kularnava Tantra - 5/48)> > > [Due to what ever things fall can happen, the same can be used to> attain> > > elightenment as well. Both Kaula Darsana and Maha Bhairava are> > > elaborating this base principle]> > > It is a simple and obvious psychological principle. > > > You ask one who is trying to deadict alcoholics - "Whether it is> > easy> > > to deadict a full druncard or an occational drinker"? What would be> the> > > answer based on true experience?> > > You ask one - "how to know about the bad effects of fire, it's hard> > > burns?" - which is the preferable path to take? By reading tones of> > > ethic books? By reading a whole lot about the bad effects of fire?> Or is> > > it just by touching fire once and thus know it by experiencing?> > > What do you say - Where the pudding would be? > > > So, it was what Kaula Tanta and Maha Bhairava is telling - a simple> > > and straight truth. But the many not knowing don't want to see> this> > > fact, since they are blinded by too much booking knowledge about> Vedas,> > > Yagas, Chatruvarnya and what not!!!> > > This was one of the simple mistakes - I wanted to point to. > > >> > > Now second coming to Bhagavat Gita -> > > Do you think it as a Vedic Brahmanic text or text of some other> > > tradition/school of thought? Try to answer based on the clear> logic,> > > data, arguments and explanation put forward by Bala Gangadhara Tilak> in> > > his book Geeta Rahasya. Hope, I am making some more points clear.> > > > Love and regards,> > > Sreenadh> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Sreenadhji, Of Course in " them " I am included. I have mentioned umpteen times that I do not have any knowledge of what they are speeaking about - Chandra ji and Vinay ji. best wishes, Bhaskar. , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Bhaskar ji, > ==> > I think Kaulji is the right match for you to rub , and the rest of the > members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and wits, > so you must be a little soft towards them. > <== > Oh!!! But unfortunately Kaul ji is not a member of this group right > now. > Any way - I agree to Bhaskar jis statement that - " the rest of the > members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and wits, > so you must be a little soft towards US " [] > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > , " Bhaskar " > rajiventerprises@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > It is natural for most of us to be interested in wine,women and > maithuna > > ( Not mithuna ) because we are sansaarik. > > > > But I am really amazed to know that you have spent many years in > Tantra, > > can do so much Pranayama in few hours, and also know a good deal of > > astronomy alongwith the Shastric references. > > > > But I would be interested for the present in the positive effects of > > wine, which you were about to relate us but declined subsequentally. > > > > I think Kaulji is the right match for you to rub , and the rest of the > > members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and > wits, > > so you must be a little soft towards them. > > > > What is your views on the Rubaiyat of Omar Khaiyyam ? > > > > regards, > > > > Bhaskar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " vinayjhaa16 " > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > This topic about Tantric Astrology has been inadvertently diverted > to > > > Wine. The next step is, I think Mudra and then Mithuna. No one is > > > interested in use of Tantra in astrology, on which I devoted long > > > years, and you call me ignorant in Tantra. > > > > > > I disagree at one point. It is not the best method to learn about > fire > > > only by means of getting burnt. The real purpose of vamamargi tantra > > > was not to illumine people about the negative attributes of wine, > but > > > the contrary... > > > > > > Supporters of wine (and women) will outnumber fools like me, hence I > > > do not want to engage in such topics in a democratic age. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > What I mentioned was the you are NOT looking at the said quote, > > > > based on the base principle of Kaula Tantra, which is - > > > > " Ereva patanam dravyaiH siddhistaireva chodita > > > > Sre Kaula darsane chapi Bhairavena mahatmana " > > > > (Kularnava Tantra - 5/48) > > > > [Due to what ever things fall can happen, the same can be used to > > attain > > > > elightenment as well. Both Kaula Darsana and Maha Bhairava are > > > > elaborating this base principle] > > > > It is a simple and obvious psychological principle. > > > > You ask one who is trying to deadict alcoholics - " Whether it is > > > easy > > > > to deadict a full druncard or an occational drinker " ? What would > be > > the > > > > answer based on true experience? > > > > You ask one - " how to know about the bad effects of fire, it's > hard > > > > burns? " - which is the preferable path to take? By reading tones > of > > > > ethic books? By reading a whole lot about the bad effects of fire? > > Or is > > > > it just by touching fire once and thus know it by experiencing? > > > > What do you say - Where the pudding would be? > > > > So, it was what Kaula Tanta and Maha Bhairava is telling - a > simple > > > > and straight truth. But the many not knowing don't want to see > > this > > > > fact, since they are blinded by too much booking knowledge about > > Vedas, > > > > Yagas, Chatruvarnya and what not!!! > > > > This was one of the simple mistakes - I wanted to point to. > > > > > > > > Now second coming to Bhagavat Gita - > > > > Do you think it as a Vedic Brahmanic text or text of some other > > > > tradition/school of thought? Try to answer based on the clear > > logic, > > > > data, arguments and explanation put forward by Bala Gangadhara > Tilak > > in > > > > his book Geeta Rahasya. Hope, I am making some more points > clear. > > > > > > Love and regards, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Bhaskar ji, We are all, all in this group are include in "Us" and not them. We are all one as member of AIA. Let us keep this - VJ and CH as 'them' - for the sake of context, and learn form them. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "Bhaskar" <rajiventerprises wrote:>> > Dear Sreenadhji,> > Of Course in "them" I am included. I have mentioned umpteen times that I> do not have any knowledge of what they are speeaking about - Chandra ji> and Vinay ji.> > best wishes,> > Bhaskar.> > > > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear Bhaskar ji,> > ==>> > I think Kaulji is the right match for you to rub , and the rest of the> > members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and> wits,> > so you must be a little soft towards them.> > <==> > Oh!!! But unfortunately Kaul ji is not a member of this group right> > now. > > Any way - I agree to Bhaskar jis statement that - "the rest of the> > members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and> wits,> > so you must be a little soft towards US" []> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> >> > , "Bhaskar"> > rajiventerprises@ wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Vinay ji,> > >> > > It is natural for most of us to be interested in wine,women and> > maithuna> > > ( Not mithuna ) because we are sansaarik.> > >> > > But I am really amazed to know that you have spent many years in> > Tantra,> > > can do so much Pranayama in few hours, and also know a good deal of> > > astronomy alongwith the Shastric references.> > >> > > But I would be interested for the present in the positive effects of> > > wine, which you were about to relate us but declined subsequentally.> > >> > > I think Kaulji is the right match for you to rub , and the rest of> the> > > members here may not be able to match you with your knowledge and> > wits,> > > so you must be a little soft towards them.> > >> > > What is your views on the Rubaiyat of Omar Khaiyyam ?> > >> > > regards,> > >> > > Bhaskar.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > , "vinayjhaa16"> > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > > >> > > > This topic about Tantric Astrology has been inadvertently diverted> > to> > > > Wine. The next step is, I think Mudra and then Mithuna. No one is> > > > interested in use of Tantra in astrology, on which I devoted long> > > > years, and you call me ignorant in Tantra.> > > >> > > > I disagree at one point. It is not the best method to learn about> > fire> > > > only by means of getting burnt. The real purpose of vamamargi> tantra> > > > was not to illumine people about the negative attributes of wine,> > but> > > > the contrary...> > > >> > > > Supporters of wine (and women) will outnumber fools like me, hence> I> > > > do not want to engage in such topics in a democratic age.> > > >> > > > -VJ> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > , "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Vinay ji,> > > > > What I mentioned was the you are NOT looking at the said quote,> > > > > based on the base principle of Kaula Tantra, which is -> > > > > "Ereva patanam dravyaiH siddhistaireva chodita> > > > > Sre Kaula darsane chapi Bhairavena mahatmana"> > > > > (Kularnava Tantra - 5/48)> > > > > [Due to what ever things fall can happen, the same can be used> to> > > attain> > > > > elightenment as well. Both Kaula Darsana and Maha Bhairava are> > > > > elaborating this base principle]> > > > > It is a simple and obvious psychological principle. > > > > > You ask one who is trying to deadict alcoholics - "Whether it is> > > > easy> > > > > to deadict a full druncard or an occational drinker"? What would> > be> > > the> > > > > answer based on true experience?> > > > > You ask one - "how to know about the bad effects of fire, it's> > hard> > > > > burns?" - which is the preferable path to take? By reading tones> > of> > > > > ethic books? By reading a whole lot about the bad effects of> fire?> > > Or is> > > > > it just by touching fire once and thus know it by experiencing?> > > > > What do you say - Where the pudding would be? > > > > > So, it was what Kaula Tanta and Maha Bhairava is telling - a> > simple> > > > > and straight truth. But the many not knowing don't want to> see> > > this> > > > > fact, since they are blinded by too much booking knowledge about> > > Vedas,> > > > > Yagas, Chatruvarnya and what not!!!> > > > > This was one of the simple mistakes - I wanted to point to. > > > > >> > > > > Now second coming to Bhagavat Gita -> > > > > Do you think it as a Vedic Brahmanic text or text of some other> > > > > tradition/school of thought? Try to answer based on the clear> > > logic,> > > > > data, arguments and explanation put forward by Bala Gangadhara> > Tilak> > > in> > > > > his book Geeta Rahasya. Hope, I am making some more points> > clear.> > > > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 Dear Vinay Ji, I tried to test your software. I see that the Bhava Chalit Chart as placed out be JHora is different from your software. This explanation you gave already. You also take a different calculation for Vimsottari Dasha. However in my experience Savana years provides more closer calculation than your yearly definition. If you want to verify, then for this birth date, there has been a job change whenever Sa Pratyantar has occurred in Ve Mah. DOB: 22/02/1976 POB: Delhi TOB: 21:35 First Job: 01/08/2001 -Lost Job: 31/08/2008 due to own refusal Second Job: 15/03/2002 : Left: 30/03/2004 Third Job: 01/04/2004 : Left: 29/03/2005 Fourth Job: 01/04/2005 Left: 30/08/2007 Fift Job: 20/08/2007 Till Date How do you explain the accurateness of your calculation. When many Astrologers have been using Savana years to some degree of accuracy till date. Warm Regards Amit Nakai vinayjhaa16 Friday, January 09, 2009 1:27 AM Re: Kularnava Tantra and Bhagavat Geeta Bhaskar jee wrote : "Mr Vinay is a person who has tried to tell usthat he is a great Brahmachari, a person who can do great Pranayamwhich he supposedly thinks that we are not into, and he has also triedto stain the ancestors of our heritage which does not confirm to mystandards."I am not a great brahmachari, only a small brahmnachari, who wanted tostart a new topic on ancient tantric chakras but was swept away bylovers of wine who are now sad at his non-brahmnachari like bahaviour.I also know I am at a wrong place. Some people see the world in blackand white. They forget my praises for Varaha Mihira and quote mycriticism , and instead of asking me to substantiate my statements aresentimentalizing the issue. Thanks !I am neither a teacher, nor a preacher. I merely came to ask all ofyou to test a free software, and nothing more. The rest is not mycreation. I think I am not fit for this group. Those who refuse totest my software cannot get any benefit from me in spite of all myefforts.-VJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 You have not used my software due to your past conceptions about Vimshottari. It is clear from the name of the software cited by you, Kundli, which was made by a 19 year old boy. My software has two options for the length of Vimshottari year, and for researchers I can add more options in future, but it is not possible at present. Softwares cannot be changed in a hurry, othwewise the whole program may crash. Suppose you had been in my position, will you be able to check all individual horoscopes coming from from all nooks and corners of the world ? And If I cite your or mine horoscope as a proof for or against some proposition, how many persons will believe in it ? For skeptics, I have started some new pages in my website, such as http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Prediction+of+Death , of well known persons whose data is not secret. You can evaluate all available softwares and all possible Vimshottari years with respect to such well established horoscopes, which would make your work worth publication. A simple transfer is not a major event. Take marriage, first job, some major accident or major illness, death, etc as events for evaluating various softwares. I will try to look into your kundali when I get time, it is not possible now-a-days. Sincerely, -VJ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= , " Amit Nakai " <amit.nakai wrote: > > Hello Vinay Ji, > > The point is not evaluating the Kundli. > However the point is timing the past events based on Savana Years w.r.t your dahsa calculation. > > I was transferred to Chennai from Delhi in April 2002 (without my wish) during the last phase of Ketu Mah, which is inline with BHPS and came back to Delhi in March 2004 during start of Ve Mah. > Event timings in individual charts makes up many charts. Hence the provided chart might be on of the many based on which statistical data is generated in favour of Savana years for Vimsottari Dasha calculation. > > Warm Regards > Amit Nakai > > > vinayjhaa16 > Friday, January 09, 2009 2:58 PM > > Re: Kularnava Tantra and Bhagavat Geeta > > > At present I am busy in updating my software, as well as in refuting > false allegations of Mr Chanra Hari who is asking everyone to expel me > from this group without any discussion, just because I am a " fraud > selling my software " !! > > I experimented with thousands of horoscopes with all possible methods > before I arrived at my conclusions. The list of govt and private > institutions which accepted my software can be found at > http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Vinay+Jha > > You should not rest your opinions on a single instance, although I > will like to evaluate your kundali as soon as possible. > > -VJ > > , " Amit Nakai " > <amit.nakai@> wrote: > > > > Dear Vinay Ji, > > > > I tried to test your software. > > I see that the Bhava Chalit Chart as placed out be JHora is > different from your software. This explanation you gave already. > > > > You also take a different calculation for Vimsottari Dasha. > > > > However in my experience Savana years provides more closer > calculation than your yearly definition. > > > > If you want to verify, then for this birth date, there has been a > job change whenever Sa Pratyantar has occurred in Ve Mah. > > > > DOB: 22/02/1976 > > POB: Delhi > > TOB: 21:35 > > > > First Job: 01/08/2001 -Lost Job: 31/08/2008 due to own refusal > > Second Job: 15/03/2002 : Left: 30/03/2004 > > Third Job: 01/04/2004 : Left: 29/03/2005 > > Fourth Job: 01/04/2005 Left: 30/08/2007 > > Fift Job: 20/08/2007 Till Date > > > > How do you explain the accurateness of your calculation. When many > Astrologers have been using Savana years to some degree of accuracy > till date. > > > > > > Warm Regards > > Amit Nakai > > > > > > > > vinayjhaa16 > > Friday, January 09, 2009 1:27 AM > > > > Re: Kularnava Tantra and > Bhagavat Geeta > > > > > > Bhaskar jee wrote : " Mr Vinay is a person who has tried to tell us > > that he is a great Brahmachari, a person who can do great Pranayam > > which he supposedly thinks that we are not into, and he has also tried > > to stain the ancestors of our heritage which does not confirm to my > > standards. " > > > > I am not a great brahmachari, only a small brahmnachari, who wanted to > > start a new topic on ancient tantric chakras but was swept away by > > lovers of wine who are now sad at his non-brahmnachari like bahaviour. > > > > I also know I am at a wrong place. Some people see the world in black > > and white. They forget my praises for Varaha Mihira and quote my > > criticism , and instead of asking me to substantiate my statements are > > sentimentalizing the issue. Thanks ! > > > > I am neither a teacher, nor a preacher. I merely came to ask all of > > you to test a free software, and nothing more. The rest is not my > > creation. I think I am not fit for this group. Those who refuse to > > test my software cannot get any benefit from me in spite of all my > > efforts. > > > > -VJ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 MD (maha-dashaa)Ketu, which has only two relatives : Moon and Venus. But Moon has mutual bitter enmity, while Venus has neutral relation with Ketu. Hence, if Ketu has any goodness to offer, that will be given in Venus AD, and bad will be hiven in Moon AD. Ketu has both things to offer : bad because of place in 8th, and good due to being in raashi of fast friend. Hence it gave a job in Venus AD. but Ketu was more bad than good, hence you left the job when Sun PD came , Sun has bitter enmity with Ketu. Second job ( you mentioned wrong date) in Ketu:Moon. Ketu tried to prevent, due to its bitter enmity with Moon, but Moon's aspect on 10th house was 38 (fast friendly) in comparison to Ketu's only 15' (ie 25%). Hence Moon prevailed. Next PD of Mars was good due to Ketu's friendship with Mars. Next PD of Rahu was also good due to neutral relation of Rahu-Ketu (bitter enmity in my software on account of confusion, because BPHS does not mention naisargika friendship of Rahu-Ketu). Rahu was in fast friend's house, and had friendly 30' aspect on 10th houses. Hence you continued in the job. But when Jup AD started in Ketu MD, you lost this job, because Jup is enmical to Ketu and bitterly enmical to 10th house. For third job, you again give wrong date. It is a proof of your seriousness towards a free software ! You are giving me wrong dates, and then say that my software is wrong ! For the correct dates given by you, my software works perfectly well, but you are denying it, just because you are sticking to old habits. This is your adherence to Sage Parashara ? I know you are not accusing me of a false software due to some design, but you are innocently helping those who are abusing me without my faults. Do you know these false persons will quote statements about the falsity of my software. If you refuse to acknowledge truth, you will not be able to get any benefit from my software. In this forum, I have been falsely charged of robbing members by " selling " my software " fraudulently " . And then you give me false dates to work on, just because I do not charge money for my services ! Thank you !! -VJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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