Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Bhaskarji, with respects to views expressed by the learned members, I personally believe that the abhorance of some practices ( what ever their names are ) are done by two ways : 1. Abstinence - recomended for guys who are scared, repulsed by the other path OR those who are balanced, situated inself, in control of their minds either due to understanding or discipline ( not supression ). 2. For those who cannot do the above and obsessed by a paricular thing, activity etc - there is also recomended doing it with full understanding as it will lead to understanding of its limitation or non-durability and eventual sacrifice of it all. Eventually - the opposites do not matter, but @ basic levels they do. Now as for the astro-combi's I remember Sreeram Srinivasji saying that Kendras when occupied with papa-grahas are necessary for a person who has tantric qualities. Thanks & Regards Chiranjiv Mehta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, I would only suggest you to look at the mature words of Shankara Bharadwaj ji, which states - ==> The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself can be " good " in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. <== May be elaboration will consume much time, space and effort - so I just hold myself back on this. Love and regards, Sreenadh , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > Well said Sreesog jee! > > Now let me translate the tantric verse about wine : > > " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " > > " Drink till you fall to the ground, then rise again and drink till you > fall again, then rise again for the third time and drink, (if you are > able to drink so much) then you will be relieved from the cycles of > rebirths " !!! > > Let us call a spade a spade. I had hoped Sunil jee would have tried to > locate that shloka of Gita which this verse parodied. But Sunil jee > thinks on some different plane. > > Even Mirza Ghalib or Haribans Rai Bachchan could not write such a fine > poetry about the virtues of wine ! But it is not ivory tower poetry. > This verse was used by a lot of vamamargi tantrics, excepting some > individuals, in actual practice, although in secrecy. > > Why the verse of Gita was parodied, which ended with " ...punarjanma na > vidyate " ? Does it not tell something about the religious attitudes of > author/authors of Kularnava Tantra? See Satyaartha Prakaash of Swami > Dayananda Saraswati for Swami jee's views about this " peetva " mantra. > It was not poetry, it was used as a mantra. > > -VJ > > > > , " Sreenadh " > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, > > In my opinion, 'Peetva' does refer to wine and that boldness itself > > is the beauty of Tantra. Why mis-interpret and super imposs our > > inhibitions and psychological barriers on those original Tantrics? > > Love and regards, > > Sreenadh > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya > > <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > " Peetva " does not necessarily refer to wine. It is the exhileration > > that a bhakta gets through devotion. For different categories of Tantric > > devotees there are different ways. For the sattvic type the substitutes > > like sugarcane juice or honey are recommended. For some only " Alipan " or > > a drop on the tongue is recommended. For the people who are really used > > to taking wine the quantity of wine should not be more than 2 Tolas ie. > > not more than one ounce, during the Tantric rituals. I do not remember > > the relevant sloka and has no means to look at the refernce books in my > > home as I am presently away from India but I hope some scholars in this > > forum may remember the relevant verse. > > > > > > There has been effort in the past by the Vedic scholars with limited > > awareness to vilify Tantra.. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ > > > Re:Tantric Astrology > > > > > > Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:53 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself : > > > > > > " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; > > > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " > > > > > > Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim. > > > Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in God. > > > Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine. > > > > > > There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri Tantra > > > was practised by demon-worsh- ppers. What Meghnada was doing with > > > Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing some > > > religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a > > > devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy. > > > > > > There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc in > > > Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is Asurakota. > > > Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of > > > Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the rules > > > of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta texts > > > used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which > > > invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is > > slayed! > > > > > > Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during most > > > of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra stotras > > > for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-) , > > > ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed the > > > real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates). > > > > > > I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad tantric > > > mantras. Even the " peetvaa.. " shloka is positively translated by a > > > vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am > > > concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in astrology. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > > Bhattacharjya > > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory > > > Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad > > > name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why > > > the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should > > > practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word " Kaula " itself > > > comes from the word " Kula " , which means family. Others can practice > > > tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing > > > age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason. > > > These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the > > > fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in > > > the past and that created a bad image for Tantra. > > > > > > > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a > > > commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote > > > Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the > > > rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his > > > generous response. > > > > > > > > For Shakadvipis, see > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira > > > > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first > > > link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > > > > > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in > > > Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source > > > of this legend. > > > > > > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was > > > Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. > > > 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of > > > the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them > > > to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric > > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, > > > like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate relates > > > to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites > > > like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to > > > Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala > > tantras. > > > > > > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana > > > in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two > > > schools have been created by modern authors. > > > > > > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for Indian > > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning > > > of Tropical. I will elaborate it further. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > > > was a > > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the > > treatise ; > > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > > Narapati's > > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > > eulogies > > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > > > suggest him > > > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > <== > > > > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and > > the > > > > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book > > Narapati > > > > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him. > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > <== > > > > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative > > argument > > > > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and > > > > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was > > > > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - " Seriously > > > Tantra > > > > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology? " . > > > So I > > > > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > > > > > <== > > > > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of > > > > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the > > > > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give > > > more > > > > > light about the line of argument: > > > > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > > > Chandra > > > > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf > > > > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > > > Chandra% 20\ > > > > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf> > > > > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Varah > > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > > > even > > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had > > gone > > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > <== > > > > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this > > > > > information is totally new to me. What about the word " Kapitthala " > > > - is > > > > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the > > name > > > > > " Shakaldvipi " (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ? > > > > > ==> > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title > > is > > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > <== > > > > > OK - Possible. > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > > > Kashmiri > > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were > > Tantric > > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > <== > > > > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to > > > > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric > > idol > > > > > worship, temple worship etc. > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and > > tropical > > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in > > Vedic > > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > > colonialist > > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and > > wanted to > > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E > > > > > <== > > > > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak > > > > > otherwise. > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, > > sunset, > > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > > > other > > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > > > even > > > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > <== > > > > > Agree. > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > > > practised in India by anyone. > > > > > <== > > > > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana > > > > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and > > > > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better > > to > > > > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory. > > > > > ==> > > > > > > If nirayana system is completely > > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the > > West. > > > > > <== > > > > > Agree. > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from > > that > > > > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are > > > > > thirsty. > > > > > > > > > > Love and Hugs, > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " vinayjhaa16 " > > > > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post. > > > > > > > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > > > was a > > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the > > treatise ; > > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > > Narapati's > > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > > eulogies > > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > > > suggest him > > > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > > Varah > > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > > > even > > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had > > gone > > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title > > is > > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > > > Kashmiri > > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were > > Tantric > > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and > > tropical > > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in > > Vedic > > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > > colonialist > > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and > > wanted to > > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, > > tropical > > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, > > sunset, > > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > > > other > > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > > > even > > > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > > > > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions > > > > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands > > : > > > > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely > > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the > > West. > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ ========= > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " > > <sreesog@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th > > > > > > > century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati > > Jayacharya " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam > > > > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam > > > > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam > > > > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam > > > > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim > > > > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha > > > > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha > > > > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale > > > > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana > > > > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya > > > > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century > > > > > AD) > > > > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after > > > referring > > > > > to > > > > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - > > firstly > > > > > the 7 > > > > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi > > > Yamala, > > > > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric > > > texts > > > > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, > > > Rakshokhnam, > > > > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala > > > etc] > > > > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati > > > > > Jayacharya > > > > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?! > > > > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the > > long > > > > > list > > > > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > > > > > > Yap, > > > > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from > > > > > ancient > > > > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha > > > > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka > > hora, > > > > > Surya > > > > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available > > > > > quotes to > > > > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do > > not > > > > > provide > > > > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept > > or > > > > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So > > > let us > > > > > go > > > > > > > by the datable and available texts. > > > > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known > > as > > > > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas > > > > > settled > > > > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure. > > > > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well > > proved > > > > > by > > > > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a > > > Jain, and > > > > > also > > > > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > > > > father's > > > > > > > name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a name > > that > > > > > ends > > > > > > > in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per > > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner > > > who come > > > > > and > > > > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and > > > > > Mihira > > > > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins. > > > > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali > > > > > from > > > > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, > > > Narapati the > > > > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. > > > > > Kalyana > > > > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - > > > evidently a > > > > > not > > > > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - > > > > > evidently > > > > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as > > evident > > > > > from > > > > > > > the quote I provided above. > > > > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from > > > > > > Orissa. > > > > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king > > > and a > > > > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, > > > > > certainly > > > > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was > > never > > > > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, > > certainly > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never > > supported > > > > > by > > > > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva > > > > > Parisishta, > > > > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate > > proofs > > > > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it > > > is well > > > > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic > > Brahmins; > > > > > no > > > > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!] > > > > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " > > <sreesog@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers > > for > > > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to > > act > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that > > there is > > > > > scope > > > > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya > > > > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= ===The > > > available > > > > > text > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters > > and > > > > > 160 > > > > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning " gem > > > in the > > > > > > > head'. > > > > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara > > > (lord > > > > > > > Siva) > > > > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala > > Mantra > > > > > > > (Medicine) > > > > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge > > > streams the > > > > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala > > > Mantra is > > > > > the > > > > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related > > > to the > > > > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, > > > > > attracting > > > > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave > > > their > > > > > > > native > > > > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability > > etc. > > > > > Yes, > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands > > of > > > > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along > > > with gem > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the > > > > > branch > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of > > > knowing > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these two > > (Kala > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in > > the > > > > > > > available > > > > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use > > > > > medicine > > > > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma > > > > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) > > > etc. > > > > > But > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra > > > (Astrology) > > > > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of > > > > > medicine > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal > > > > > plants > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served > > some > > > > > secret > > > > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric > > culture. > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have > > been > > > > > the > > > > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even > > > though in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa > > etc] > > > > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and > > > > > KalaTantra, > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly > > > with > > > > > > > Kala > > > > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with > > Kala > > > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime. > > > > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva > > > > > > > - " Approaching > > > > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher > > of > > > > > all > > > > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, > > with > > > > > > > folded > > > > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the > > devotees > > > > > > > please > > > > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the same > > > > > style > > > > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well > > > from > > > > > lord > > > > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra > > > (Astrology) > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because > > > > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, > > can be > > > > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this > > > > > conclusion. > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is another > > > name for > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the head " > > > by the > > > > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > > > > " Like > > > > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a > > cobra, > > > > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem) " > > > > > > > > Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to KalaTantra > > - > > > > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because > > ofthis > > > > > even > > > > > > > > the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicate > > > s that > > > > > Kala > > > > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. > > But > > > > > that > > > > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore. > > > > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument. > > > Dattatreyagives > > > > > a > > > > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra > > atthe > > > > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are > > > mentioned,but > > > > > only > > > > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in > > theprinted > > > > > text. > > > > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 chapters)seems > > > to be > > > > > > > missing. > > > > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya > > Mahatantra > > > > > is an > > > > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question > > > > > > > > rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to > > learn > > > > > from > > > > > > > lord > > > > > > > > Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that > > > could > > > > > be > > > > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, > > he > > > > > might > > > > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be > > > made > > > > > use > > > > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva- > > > > > > > " In > > > > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships > > are > > > > > present. > > > > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, > > and in > > > > > many > > > > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala > > Tantra > > > > > that > > > > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra > > etc) > > > > > 'in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what > > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine > > > > > > > (Kala > > > > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is > > > > > Shadkarma > > > > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This > > > knowledge > > > > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya > > > > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and > > > > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'. > > > > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word > > > Puranahere > > > > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda > > > > > hereindicates > > > > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called > > Brahmana,Aaranyaka, > > > > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor > > > > > Tantric > > > > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So > > thestatement > > > > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra > > > > > (Agama) > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is > > Vishnava > > > > > > > Tantra. > > > > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request > > of > > > > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and > > > teach him > > > > > the > > > > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is > > beneficial > > > > > for > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method. > > > > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in > > acorrupted > > > > > state at > > > > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it > > was > > > > > very > > > > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the > > > pile. > > > > > The > > > > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and > > > > > Puranas > > > > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from > > > Tantrics and > > > > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the > > > > > pain of > > > > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge > > is > > > > > > > becoming > > > > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the > > > > > heritage of > > > > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This great > > > > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who > > > devotes > > > > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for > > davas, > > > > > first > > > > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true > > > > > devotee of > > > > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons > > > who does > > > > > not > > > > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. > > One > > > > > should > > > > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong > > > willed and > > > > > is > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, > > > > > " Astrology is > > > > > > > > originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for > > > special > > > > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) > > this > > > > > truth > > > > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read > > > horoscope, > > > > > or > > > > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara > > (Siva). > > > > > This > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in > > the > > > > > form > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the > > ultimate > > > > > Guru > > > > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric > > tradition. > > > > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we > > considerthe > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of > > > > > > > astrology, > > > > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma > > > > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva > > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda > > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma > > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in > > concept > > > > > about > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are > > all > > > > > > > different > > > > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated > > and > > > > > existed > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as > > > Rasi > > > > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed > > > in a > > > > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic > > concepts > > > > > such > > > > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some > > > > > > > othercivilization > > > > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as > > > > > theSindhu-Saraswati > > > > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could > > > prove > > > > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not. > > > > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the > > astrologicalcontent in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go > > back > > > > > to > > > > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines > > > could be > > > > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells > > > > > Dattatreya - > > > > > > > > " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial > > forthe > > > > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on > > > > > medicine)which > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, > > > puttingaside > > > > > the > > > > > > > > knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the benefit > > > > > with > > > > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, > > > Vreta, > > > > > Day, > > > > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an > > auspicious > > > > > muhoorta > > > > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits > > > well for > > > > > the > > > > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of > > it > > > > > the > > > > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their > > effect > > > > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use > > > these > > > > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice > > > > > lord > > > > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since > > those > > > > > slokas > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If > > > anyone > > > > > is > > > > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya > > Mahatantra > > > > > to > > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the > > > > > available > > > > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). > > The > > > > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. > > Siva > > > > > said: > > > > > > > > " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of > > > > > humanbeings I > > > > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " > > Dwadesa > > > > > dala > > > > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa > > sankhayani > > > > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi > > likhyate > > > > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya > > > vedhe > > > > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve > > cha > > > > > chandre > > > > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase > > > vicharayete > > > > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, > > > we can > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the > > > numbers of > > > > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In > > > each of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current > > > > > planetary > > > > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects > > > (Drishti) > > > > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. > > If > > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, > > > > > forJupiter > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, > > for > > > > > Venus > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done > > every > > > > > month " > > > > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha > > > > > ismentioned > > > > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and > > RasiVedha > > > > > is > > > > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for > > KalaMrityu > > > > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka > > > > > was > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will > > > explain.(1) > > > > > > > > Mention of months starting from > > > > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > > Why it > > > > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite > > > down the > > > > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in > > each > > > > > > > square > > > > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > > > > Chaitra > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ? > > > > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should > > > > > > > becalculated, > > > > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint > > > 180 deg > > > > > > > away > > > > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe > > like?(2) > > > > > Mrityu > > > > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma > > riksha > > > > > janma > > > > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning Saturn > > would > > > > > have > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning > > > > > Saturn > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ? > > > > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should > > beconsidered, > > > > > then > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) Riksha > > - > > > > > Nakshatra > > > > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word > > > > > Riksha > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma > > Riksha > > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna > > > sign, Moon > > > > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha > > > > > > > represents > > > > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider > > both > > > > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? > > > How to > > > > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary > > context?(4) > > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- --------- > > > ------- > > > > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it > > issaid > > > > > that > > > > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory > > tothe > > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many > > typesof > > > > > Vedha is > > > > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha > > andGraha > > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved > > while > > > > > > > predicting > > > > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or > > > > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha > > > > > system > > > > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase > > mase > > > > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit > > > > > should be > > > > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he > > > > > avoided > > > > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and > > > > > Ketu?(6) > > > > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- --------- > > - > > > > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the > > personwho > > > > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here > > > weencounter > > > > > a > > > > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould > > we > > > > > > > observe > > > > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated > > after > > > > > > > Sripati > > > > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed > > the > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya > > > Tantra? > > > > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to > > > findanswers > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of > > > theastrology > > > > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must. > > > > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we > > canclassify > > > > > them > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati > > period > > > > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas > > and > > > > > allied > > > > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned Epics > > > (Epic > > > > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic > > > > > Astrology)(v) > > > > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - > > Itis > > > > > the > > > > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a > > > > > wholesecret > > > > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology > > of > > > > > Arsha > > > > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological > > texts. > > > > > This > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with > > Skanda > > > > > Hora, > > > > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The > > acharyas > > > > > in > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, > > Kousika, > > > > > Sounaka > > > > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. > > (Arsha > > > > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of > > > > > thought](vii) > > > > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in > > variousancient > > > > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in > > > > > Indianastrology > > > > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas > > in > > > > > this > > > > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of > > > course > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and > > > Parasara. But > > > > > > > books > > > > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am > > not > > > > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a > > single > > > > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of > > > any of > > > > > the > > > > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available > > for > > > > > > > research! > > > > > > > > They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward and > > > reveal > > > > > the > > > > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient knowledge > > on > > > > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half > > forgotten, > > > > > > > unexplored > > > > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us, > > > > > > > > " TamasomaJyotirgama ya... " . Yes, there is a large amount of > > work > > > > > > > pending, > > > > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge > > is > > > > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower > > > their > > > > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are > > truly > > > > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin > > our > > > > > search > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is > > > > > child's > > > > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be > > explored! > > > > > Let > > > > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the > > > all, > > > > > > > forthe > > > > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Bhadraiah > > > Mallampalli " > > > > > > > > vaidix@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of > > interest. > > > > > That > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give > > > > > *everything* > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is > > the > > > > > > > > > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or > > > > > mathematicians. A > > > > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed > > by > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles > > and > > > > > can be > > > > > > > > > called " veda " in the modern sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific > > > documents are > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted > > > results > > > > > (we > > > > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To > > > > > discard > > > > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the > > > unpublished > > > > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) > > is > > > > > stupid. > > > > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of > > > relativity from > > > > > > > > > Newton's works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't > > > > > understand > > > > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the > > > total > > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed > > > (well, > > > > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each > > > veda > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda > > > > > > > > > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers > > for > > > > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out > > of > > > > > > > > > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and > > > > > > > inconceivable > > > > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some > > universal > > > > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted > > > > > completely > > > > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim > > of > > > > > > > > > astrology as a veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Please read my answer to Neelam sent a few minutes ago, in which I complained that a good topic about Tantric Astrology was drowned under two tolas of wine. Why all of you are discussing wine here is beyond my comprehension. I hoped this forum belonged to astrology. -VJ , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Vinay ji, > I would only suggest you to look at the mature words of Shankara > Bharadwaj ji, which states - > ==> > The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself can be " good " in > Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. > <== > May be elaboration will consume much time, space and effort - so I > just hold myself back on this. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > , " vinayjhaa16 " > <vinayjhaa16@> wrote: > > > > Well said Sreesog jee! > > > > Now let me translate the tantric verse about wine : > > > > " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; > > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " > > > > " Drink till you fall to the ground, then rise again and drink till you > > fall again, then rise again for the third time and drink, (if you are > > able to drink so much) then you will be relieved from the cycles of > > rebirths " !!! > > > > Let us call a spade a spade. I had hoped Sunil jee would have tried to > > locate that shloka of Gita which this verse parodied. But Sunil jee > > thinks on some different plane. > > > > Even Mirza Ghalib or Haribans Rai Bachchan could not write such a fine > > poetry about the virtues of wine ! But it is not ivory tower poetry. > > This verse was used by a lot of vamamargi tantrics, excepting some > > individuals, in actual practice, although in secrecy. > > > > Why the verse of Gita was parodied, which ended with " ...punarjanma na > > vidyate " ? Does it not tell something about the religious attitudes of > > author/authors of Kularnava Tantra? See Satyaartha Prakaash of Swami > > Dayananda Saraswati for Swami jee's views about this " peetva " mantra. > > It was not poetry, it was used as a mantra. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > , " Sreenadh " > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, > > > In my opinion, 'Peetva' does refer to wine and that boldness > itself > > > is the beauty of Tantra. Why mis-interpret and super imposs our > > > inhibitions and psychological barriers on those original Tantrics? > > > > Love and regards, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya > > > <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > > > " Peetva " does not necessarily refer to wine. It is the > exhileration > > > that a bhakta gets through devotion. For different categories of > Tantric > > > devotees there are different ways. For the sattvic type the > substitutes > > > like sugarcane juice or honey are recommended. For some only > " Alipan " or > > > a drop on the tongue is recommended. For the people who are really > used > > > to taking wine the quantity of wine should not be more than 2 Tolas > ie. > > > not more than one ounce, during the Tantric rituals. I do not > remember > > > the relevant sloka and has no means to look at the refernce books in > my > > > home as I am presently away from India but I hope some scholars in > this > > > forum may remember the relevant verse. > > > > > > > > There has been effort in the past by the Vedic scholars with > limited > > > awareness to vilify Tantra.. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ > > > > Re:Tantric Astrology > > > > > > > > Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:53 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself : > > > > > > > > " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; > > > > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " > > > > > > > > Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim. > > > > Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in > God. > > > > Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine. > > > > > > > > There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri > Tantra > > > > was practised by demon-worsh- ppers. What Meghnada was doing with > > > > Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing > some > > > > religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a > > > > devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy. > > > > > > > > There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc > in > > > > Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is > Asurakota. > > > > Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of > > > > Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the > rules > > > > of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta > texts > > > > used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which > > > > invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is > > > slayed! > > > > > > > > Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during > most > > > > of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra > stotras > > > > for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-) , > > > > ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed > the > > > > real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates). > > > > > > > > I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad > tantric > > > > mantras. Even the " peetvaa.. " shloka is positively translated by a > > > > vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am > > > > concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in > astrology. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > > > Bhattacharjya > > > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > > > > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory > > > > Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a > bad > > > > name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is > why > > > > the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should > > > > practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word " Kaula " itself > > > > comes from the word " Kula " , which means family. Others can > practice > > > > tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the > child-bearing > > > > age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason. > > > > These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb > the > > > > fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms > in > > > > the past and that created a bad image for Tantra. > > > > > > > > > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a > > > > commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also > wrote > > > > Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and > the > > > > rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > > > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his > > > > generous response. > > > > > > > > > > For Shakadvipis, see > > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya > > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira > > > > > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the > first > > > > link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > > > > > > > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in > > > > Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the > source > > > > of this legend. > > > > > > > > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was > > > > Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by > Narpati. > > > > 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private > library of > > > > the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view > them > > > > to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of > Tantric > > > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, > > > > like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate > relates > > > > to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic > rites > > > > like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to > > > > Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala > > > tantras. > > > > > > > > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus > nirayana > > > > in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two > > > > schools have been created by modern authors. > > > > > > > > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for > Indian > > > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern > meaning > > > > of Tropical. I will elaborate it further. > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. > Narapati > > > > was a > > > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the > > > treatise ; > > > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > > > Narapati's > > > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > > > eulogies > > > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > > > > suggest him > > > > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati > and > > > the > > > > > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book > > > Narapati > > > > > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis > of > > > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > > <== > > > > > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative > > > argument > > > > > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info > and > > > > > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who > was > > > > > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - > " Seriously > > > > Tantra > > > > > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric > astrology? " . > > > > So I > > > > > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not > read > > > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to > read. > > > > > > <== > > > > > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme > god of > > > > > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like > the > > > > > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could > give > > > > more > > > > > > light about the line of argument: > > > > > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > > > > Chandra > > > > > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf > > > > > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > > > > Chandra% 20\ > > > > > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf> > > > > > > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Varah > > > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship > him > > > > even > > > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they > had > > > gone > > > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > > <== > > > > > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All > this > > > > > > information is totally new to me. What about the word > " Kapitthala " > > > > - is > > > > > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to > the > > > name > > > > > > " Shakaldvipi " (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ? > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This > title > > > is > > > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > > <== > > > > > > OK - Possible. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most > of > > > > Kashmiri > > > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were > > > Tantric > > > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering > to > > > > > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting > Tantric > > > idol > > > > > > worship, temple worship etc. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and > > > tropical > > > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology > in > > > Vedic > > > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > > > colonialist > > > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and > > > wanted to > > > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs > speak > > > > > > otherwise. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is > the > > > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, > > > sunset, > > > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant > and > > > > other > > > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical > astrology > > > > even > > > > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Agree. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > > > > practised in India by anyone. > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in > Atharvana > > > > > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra > and > > > > > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is > better > > > to > > > > > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory. > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > If nirayana system is completely > > > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the > > > West. > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Agree. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink > from > > > that > > > > > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we > are > > > > > > thirsty. > > > > > > > > > > > > Love and Hugs, > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, > " vinayjhaa16 " > > > > > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. > Narapati > > > > was a > > > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the > > > treatise ; > > > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > > > Narapati's > > > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > > > eulogies > > > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > > > > suggest him > > > > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis > of > > > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not > read > > > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to > read. > > > Varah > > > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship > him > > > > even > > > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they > had > > > gone > > > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This > title > > > is > > > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most > of > > > > Kashmiri > > > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were > > > Tantric > > > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and > > > tropical > > > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology > in > > > Vedic > > > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > > > colonialist > > > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and > > > wanted to > > > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, > > > tropical > > > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is > the > > > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, > > > sunset, > > > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant > and > > > > other > > > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical > astrology > > > > even > > > > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions > > > > > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad > brands > > > : > > > > > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was > never > > > > > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is > completely > > > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the > > > West. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ ========= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, > " Sreenadh " > > > > > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " > > > <sreesog@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers > for > > > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the > 10th > > > > > > > > century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati > > > Jayacharya " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam > > > > > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam > > > > > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam > > > > > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam > > > > > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim > > > > > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha > > > > > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha > > > > > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale > > > > > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana > > > > > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya > > > > > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century > > > > > > AD) > > > > > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after > > > > referring > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - > > > firstly > > > > > > the 7 > > > > > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, > Adi > > > > Yamala, > > > > > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the > Tantric > > > > texts > > > > > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, > > > > Rakshokhnam, > > > > > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava > patala > > > > etc] > > > > > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati > > > > > > Jayacharya > > > > > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?! > > > > > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in > the > > > long > > > > > > list > > > > > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder > struk?? > > > > > > > > > Yap, > > > > > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes > from > > > > > > ancient > > > > > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of > Daksha > > > > > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, > Sounaka > > > hora, > > > > > > Surya > > > > > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those > available > > > > > > quotes to > > > > > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts > do > > > not > > > > > > provide > > > > > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not > accept > > > or > > > > > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). > So > > > > let us > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > by the datable and available texts. > > > > > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora > (Known > > > as > > > > > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or > Yavanas > > > > > > settled > > > > > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure. > > > > > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well > > > proved > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a > > > > Jain, and > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > > > > > father's > > > > > > > > name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a > name > > > that > > > > > > ends > > > > > > > > in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as > per > > > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a > foreigner > > > > who come > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa > and > > > > > > Mihira > > > > > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins. > > > > > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of > Saravali > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, > > > > Narapati the > > > > > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near > Ujjain. > > > > > > Kalyana > > > > > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - > > > > evidently a > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric > follower - > > > > > > evidently > > > > > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as > > > evident > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the quote I provided above. > > > > > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita > from > > > > > > > Orissa. > > > > > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a > king > > > > and a > > > > > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic > brahmin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, > > > > > > certainly > > > > > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and > was > > > never > > > > > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, > > > certainly > > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never > > > supported > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with > Atharva > > > > > > Parisishta, > > > > > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate > > > proofs > > > > > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - > it > > > > is well > > > > > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic > > > Brahmins; > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!] > > > > > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " > > > <sreesog@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any > takers > > > for > > > > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want > to > > > act > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that > > > there is > > > > > > scope > > > > > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a > start. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya > > > > > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= > ===The > > > > available > > > > > > text > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 > chapters > > > and > > > > > > 160 > > > > > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning > " gem > > > > in the > > > > > > > > head'. > > > > > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord > Parameswara > > > > (lord > > > > > > > > Siva) > > > > > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala > > > Mantra > > > > > > > > (Medicine) > > > > > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge > > > > streams the > > > > > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala > > > > Mantra is > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine > related > > > > to the > > > > > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, > > > > > > attracting > > > > > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people > leave > > > > their > > > > > > > > native > > > > > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual > ability > > > etc. > > > > > > Yes, > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter > thousands > > > of > > > > > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, > along > > > > with gem > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the > > > > > > branch > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose > of > > > > knowing > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these > two > > > (Kala > > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with > in > > > the > > > > > > > > available > > > > > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to > use > > > > > > medicine > > > > > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of > Shadkarma > > > > > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, > Akarshana) > > > > etc. > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra > > > > (Astrology) > > > > > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of > > > > > > medicine > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of > medicinal > > > > > > plants > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have > served > > > some > > > > > > secret > > > > > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric > > > culture. > > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would > have > > > been > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even > > > > though in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like > Homa > > > etc] > > > > > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and > > > > > > KalaTantra, > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that > dealsmainly > > > > with > > > > > > > > Kala > > > > > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals > with > > > Kala > > > > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime. > > > > > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord > Siva > > > > > > > > - " Approaching > > > > > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the > wellwisher > > > of > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is > Kailasa,humbly, > > > with > > > > > > > > folded > > > > > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the > > > devotees > > > > > > > > please > > > > > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the same > > > > > > style > > > > > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as > well > > > > from > > > > > > lord > > > > > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra > > > > (Astrology) > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because > > > > > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis > text, > > > can be > > > > > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor > this > > > > > > conclusion. > > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > > mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is > another > > > > name for > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the > head " > > > > by the > > > > > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > > > > > " Like > > > > > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a > > > cobra, > > > > > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like > agem) " > > > > > > > > > Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to > KalaTantra > > > - > > > > > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. > Because > > > ofthis > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya > Mahatantra,indicate > > > > s that > > > > > > Kala > > > > > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the > text. > > > But > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore. > > > > > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument. > > > > Dattatreyagives > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya > Mahatantra > > > atthe > > > > > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are > > > > mentioned,but > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in > > > theprinted > > > > > > text. > > > > > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 > chapters)seems > > > > to be > > > > > > > > missing. > > > > > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya > > > Mahatantra > > > > > > is an > > > > > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question > > > > > > > > > rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to > > > learn > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > lord > > > > > > > > > Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) > that > > > > could > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma > etc, > > > he > > > > > > might > > > > > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that > could be > > > > made > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva- > > > > > > > > " In > > > > > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, > tantricworships > > > are > > > > > > present. > > > > > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand > Damara, > > > and in > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala > > > Tantra > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, > Mantra > > > etc) > > > > > > 'in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what > > > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine > > > > > > > > (Kala > > > > > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help > is > > > > > > Shadkarma > > > > > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. > Dattatreya > > > > > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge > and > > > > > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct > method'. > > > > > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word > > > > Puranahere > > > > > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda > > > > > > hereindicates > > > > > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called > > > Brahmana,Aaranyaka, > > > > > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. > Butfor > > > > > > Tantric > > > > > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So > > > thestatement > > > > > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both > SivaTantra > > > > > > (Agama) > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is > > > Vishnava > > > > > > > > Tantra. > > > > > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the > request > > > of > > > > > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and > > > > teach him > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is > > > beneficial > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method. > > > > > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in > > > acorrupted > > > > > > state at > > > > > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi > it > > > was > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from > the > > > > pile. > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas > and > > > > > > Puranas > > > > > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from > > > > Tantrics and > > > > > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the > > > > > > pain of > > > > > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret > knowledge > > > is > > > > > > > > becoming > > > > > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be > the > > > > > > heritage of > > > > > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This great > > > > > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one > who > > > > devotes > > > > > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even > for > > > davas, > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all > secret > > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the > true > > > > > > devotee of > > > > > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to > persons > > > > who does > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of > knowledge. > > > One > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong > > > > willed and > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, > > > > > > " Astrology is > > > > > > > > > originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks > for > > > > special > > > > > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th > century) > > > this > > > > > > truth > > > > > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read > > > > horoscope, > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara > > > (Siva). > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord > Siva in > > > the > > > > > > form > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the > > > ultimate > > > > > > Guru > > > > > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric > > > tradition. > > > > > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we > > > considerthe > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per > differentschools of > > > > > > > > astrology, > > > > > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma > > > > > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva > > > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda > > > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma > > > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in > > > concept > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these > are > > > all > > > > > > > > different > > > > > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably > originated > > > and > > > > > > existed > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts > (Such as > > > > Rasi > > > > > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got > intermixed > > > > in a > > > > > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic > > > concepts > > > > > > such > > > > > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some > > > > > > > > othercivilization > > > > > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as > > > > > > theSindhu-Saraswati > > > > > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences > could > > > > prove > > > > > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or > not. > > > > > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the > > > astrologicalcontent in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus > go > > > back > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines > > > > could be > > > > > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells > > > > > > Dattatreya - > > > > > > > > > " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial > > > forthe > > > > > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on > > > > > > medicine)which > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, > > > > puttingaside > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the benefit > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, > Nakshatra, > > > > Vreta, > > > > > > Day, > > > > > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an > > > auspicious > > > > > > muhoorta > > > > > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits > > > > well for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the > use of > > > it > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their > > > effect > > > > > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to > use > > > > these > > > > > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice > > > > > > lord > > > > > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since > > > those > > > > > > slokas > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. > If > > > > anyone > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya > > > Mahatantra > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the > > > > > > available > > > > > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra > (Astrology). > > > The > > > > > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject > discussed. > > > Siva > > > > > > said: > > > > > > > > > " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of > > > > > > humanbeings I > > > > > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " > > > Dwadesa > > > > > > dala > > > > > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa > > > sankhayani > > > > > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi > > > likhyate > > > > > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante > mrityukarakeSurya > > > > vedhe > > > > > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha > jeeve > > > cha > > > > > > chandre > > > > > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase > > > > vicharayete > > > > > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 > petals, > > > > we can > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the > > > > numbers of > > > > > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. > In > > > > each of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per > current > > > > > > planetary > > > > > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon > etc > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects > > > > (Drishti) > > > > > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death > time. > > > If > > > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - > happiness, > > > > > > forJupiter > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts > withwomen, > > > for > > > > > > Venus > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done > > > every > > > > > > month " > > > > > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of > Gochara-Vedha > > > > > > ismentioned > > > > > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and > > > RasiVedha > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for > > > KalaMrityu > > > > > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will > > > > explain.(1) > > > > > > > > > Mention of months starting from > > > > > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > > > Why it > > > > > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we > shouldwrite > > > > down the > > > > > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra > in > > > each > > > > > > > > square > > > > > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > > > > > Chaitra > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ? > > > > > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries > should > > > > > > > > becalculated, > > > > > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if > thepoint > > > > 180 deg > > > > > > > > away > > > > > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe > > > like?(2) > > > > > > Mrityu > > > > > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn > > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma > > > riksha > > > > > > janma > > > > > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning > Saturn > > > would > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly > mentioning > > > > > > Saturn > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of > death) ? > > > > > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should > > > beconsidered, > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) > Riksha > > > - > > > > > > Nakshatra > > > > > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word > > > > > > Riksha > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma > > > Riksha > > > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna > > > > sign, Moon > > > > > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word > Riksha > > > > > > > > represents > > > > > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should > consider > > > both > > > > > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime > determination? > > > > How to > > > > > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary > > > context?(4) > > > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- > --------- > > > > ------- > > > > > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it > > > issaid > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory > > > tothe > > > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many > > > typesof > > > > > > Vedha is > > > > > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha > > > andGraha > > > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved > > > while > > > > > > > > predicting > > > > > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or > > > > > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha > > > > > > system > > > > > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month > (Mase > > > mase > > > > > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that > Transit > > > > > > should be > > > > > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why > he > > > > > > avoided > > > > > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu > and > > > > > > Ketu?(6) > > > > > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- > --------- > > > - > > > > > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the > > > personwho > > > > > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here > > > > weencounter > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! > Whatshould > > > we > > > > > > > > observe > > > > > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya > Tantraoriginated > > > after > > > > > > > > Sripati > > > > > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati > borrowed > > > the > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from > Dattatreya > > > > Tantra? > > > > > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to > > > > findanswers > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of > > > > theastrology > > > > > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a > must. > > > > > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we > > > canclassify > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati > > > period > > > > > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned > Vedas > > > and > > > > > > allied > > > > > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned > Epics > > > > (Epic > > > > > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic > > > > > > Astrology)(v) > > > > > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) > - > > > Itis > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a > > > > > > wholesecret > > > > > > > > > tradition) waiting for us > Astrology > > > of > > > > > > Arsha > > > > > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological > > > texts. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with > > > Skanda > > > > > > Hora, > > > > > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The > > > acharyas > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, > > > Kousika, > > > > > > Sounaka > > > > > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. > > > (Arsha > > > > > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of > > > > > > thought](vii) > > > > > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in > > > variousancient > > > > > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in > > > > > > Indianastrology > > > > > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. > Theacharyas > > > in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, > of > > > > course > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and > > > > Parasara. But > > > > > > > > books > > > > > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why > I am > > > not > > > > > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a > > > single > > > > > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths > of > > > > any of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area > available > > > for > > > > > > > > research! > > > > > > > > > They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward > and > > > > reveal > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient > knowledge > > > on > > > > > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half > > > forgotten, > > > > > > > > unexplored > > > > > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us, > > > > > > > > > " TamasomaJyotirgama ya... " . Yes, there is a large amount > of > > > work > > > > > > > > pending, > > > > > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these > knowledge > > > is > > > > > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to > shower > > > > their > > > > > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who > are > > > truly > > > > > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us > begin > > > our > > > > > > search > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It > is > > > > > > child's > > > > > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be > > > explored! > > > > > > Let > > > > > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before > the > > > > all, > > > > > > > > forthe > > > > > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of > learning!Love, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Bhadraiah > > > > Mallampalli " > > > > > > > > > vaidix@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of > > > interest. > > > > > > That > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give > > > > > > *everything* > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your > reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it > is > > > the > > > > > > > > > > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or > > > > > > mathematicians. A > > > > > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as > claimed > > > by > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such > articles > > > and > > > > > > can be > > > > > > > > > > called " veda " in the modern sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific > > > > documents are > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or > uninterpreted > > > > results > > > > > > (we > > > > > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other > names. To > > > > > > discard > > > > > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the > > > > unpublished > > > > > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers > (veda) > > > is > > > > > > stupid. > > > > > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of > > > > relativity from > > > > > > > > > > Newton's works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we > don't > > > > > > understand > > > > > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention > the > > > > total > > > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally > existed > > > > (well, > > > > > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of > each > > > > veda > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing > veda > > > > > > > > > > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything > in > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any > takers > > > for > > > > > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy > out > > > of > > > > > > > > > > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, > and > > > > > > > > inconceivable > > > > > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some > > > universal > > > > > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is > interpreted > > > > > > completely > > > > > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with > claim > > > of > > > > > > > > > > astrology as a veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Shankara Bharadwaj Khandavalli ==> Bali is not a part of vamacara. <== Yes, 'Bali' was part of both Tantric as well as Vedic traditions. There are many thought provoking statements you have provided us with, such as - * People do eat meat and in that case consecrating the animal before eating does not give it a negative connotation - it makes it rather positive. * Over time smritis toned it down and discouraged mamsa for brahmin. And in temples animal is replaced by pista pasu. That does not make animal sacrifice any barbaric. It only implies that social conditions have changed. * As long as a person does not interfere with the lives of other persons, being judgmental on his practices, whatever they are, is not necessary. It is not that mamsa, madya and maithuna attract people and that is why they condone vamacara. You might be surprised to see how far they are from those practices really. To be talking dispassionately of the rich and diverse traditions, personal preferences are not required. Beautiful!!! Those of us who make too much noise should take a look at, a learn a lesson from, Shankara Bharadwaj's thought provoking, and to the point mails - I think. Thanks a lot for such thoughts shared. Love and regards,Sreenadh , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:>> It is a matter of perspective. What is the context of vamacara, where does our aesthetic sense of good-bad-ugly apply, and what not. The whole problem is because of taking of things out of their context. > > Bali is not a part of vamacara. Anything makes sense in its right context - including himsa and bali. There are a whole range of practices related to bali, and "bloody bali" does not describe those. People do eat meat and in that case consecrating the animal before eating does not give it a negative connotation - it makes it rather positive. Yes, there are practices that are extreme (for instance nara bali) - that does not make the basic concept wrong. Dwijas ate meat in the Puranic times, esp when it is consecrated in a sacrifice. Over time smritis toned it down and discouraged mamsa for brahmin. And in temples animal is replaced by pista pasu. That does not make animal sacrifice any barbaric. It only implies that social conditions have changed. > > As long as a person does not interfere with the lives of other persons, being judgmental on his practices, whatever they are, is not necessary. It is not that mamsa, madya and maithuna attract people and that is why they condone vamacara. You might be surprised to see how far they are from those practices really. To be talking dispassionately of the rich and diverse traditions, personal preferences are not required.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, ==>> Please read my answer to Neelam sent a few minutes ago, in which I> complained that a good topic about Tantric Astrology was drowned under> two tolas of wine. Why all of you are discussing wine here is beyond> my comprehension. I hoped this forum belonged to astrology.<== I was away from net for a day - and was reading mails in order from where I left. Yes, I read the response, and already posted my response to that mail as well. Of course this forum is for astrology - but of course the two tolas wine of spirituality and wisdom is also always welcome. It is the members who decide the direction of discussions - and not any kind of iron fist. So at times we will have to expect and accept the occational tangential deviations - it is just natural for a group. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "vinayjhaa16" <vinayjhaa16 wrote:>> Please read my answer to Neelam sent a few minutes ago, in which I> complained that a good topic about Tantric Astrology was drowned under> two tolas of wine. Why all of you are discussing wine here is beyond> my comprehension. I hoped this forum belonged to astrology.> > -VJ> > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear Vinay ji,> > I would only suggest you to look at the mature words of Shankara> > Bharadwaj ji, which states -> > ==>> > The point is, the "literlal" sense of using wine itself can be "good" in> > Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different.> > <==> > May be elaboration will consume much time, space and effort - so I> > just hold myself back on this.> > Love and regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > , "vinayjhaa16"> > <vinayjhaa16@> wrote:> > >> > > Well said Sreesog jee!> > >> > > Now let me translate the tantric verse about wine :> > >> > > "Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale;> > > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate !"> > >> > > "Drink till you fall to the ground, then rise again and drink till you> > > fall again, then rise again for the third time and drink, (if you are> > > able to drink so much) then you will be relieved from the cycles of> > > rebirths "!!!> > >> > > Let us call a spade a spade. I had hoped Sunil jee would have tried to> > > locate that shloka of Gita which this verse parodied. But Sunil jee> > > thinks on some different plane.> > >> > > Even Mirza Ghalib or Haribans Rai Bachchan could not write such a fine> > > poetry about the virtues of wine ! But it is not ivory tower poetry.> > > This verse was used by a lot of vamamargi tantrics, excepting some> > > individuals, in actual practice, although in secrecy.> > >> > > Why the verse of Gita was parodied, which ended with "...punarjanma na> > > vidyate "? Does it not tell something about the religious attitudes of> > > author/authors of Kularnava Tantra? See Satyaartha Prakaash of Swami> > > Dayananda Saraswati for Swami jee's views about this "peetva" mantra.> > > It was not poetry, it was used as a mantra.> > >> > > -VJ> > >> > >> > >> > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji,> > > > In my opinion, 'Peetva' does refer to wine and that boldness> > itself> > > > is the beauty of Tantra. Why mis-interpret and super imposs our> > > > inhibitions and psychological barriers on those original Tantrics?> > > > > > Love and regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya> > > > <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Vinayji,> > > > >> > > > > Namaste,> > > > >> > > > > "Peetva" does not necessarily refer to wine. It is the> > exhileration> > > > that a bhakta gets through devotion. For different categories of> > Tantric> > > > devotees there are different ways. For the sattvic type the> > substitutes> > > > like sugarcane juice or honey are recommended. For some only> > "Alipan" or> > > > a drop on the tongue is recommended. For the people who are really> > used> > > > to taking wine the quantity of wine should not be more than 2 Tolas> > ie.> > > > not more than one ounce, during the Tantric rituals. I do not> > remember> > > > the relevant sloka and has no means to look at the refernce books in> > my> > > > home as I am presently away from India but I hope some scholars in> > this> > > > forum may remember the relevant verse.> > > > >> > > > > There has been effort in the past by the Vedic scholars with> > limited> > > > awareness to vilify Tantra..> > > > >> > > > > Regards,> > > > >> > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > >> > > > > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@> > > > > Re:Tantric Astrology> > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:53 AM> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself :> > > > >> > > > > "Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale;> > > > > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate !"> > > > >> > > > > Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim.> > > > > Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in> > God.> > > > > Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine.> > > > >> > > > > There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri> > Tantra> > > > > was practised by demon-worsh- ppers. What Meghnada was doing with> > > > > Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing> > some> > > > > religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a> > > > > devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy.> > > > >> > > > > There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc> > in> > > > > Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is> > Asurakota.> > > > > Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of> > > > > Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the> > rules> > > > > of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta> > texts> > > > > used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which> > > > > invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is> > > > slayed!> > > > >> > > > > Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during> > most> > > > > of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra> > stotras> > > > > for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-) ,> > > > > ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed> > the> > > > > real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates).> > > > >> > > > > I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad> > tantric> > > > > mantras. Even the "peetvaa.." shloka is positively translated by a> > > > > vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am> > > > > concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in> > astrology.> > > > >> > > > > -VJ> > > > >> > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil> > > > Bhattacharjya> > > > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Vinayji,> > > > > >> > > > > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory> > > > > Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a> > bad> > > > > name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is> > why> > > > > the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should> > > > > practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word "Kaula" itself> > > > > comes from the word "Kula", which means family. Others can> > practice> > > > > tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the> > child-bearing> > > > > age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason.> > > > > These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb> > the> > > > > fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms> > in> > > > > the past and that created a bad image for Tantra.> > > > > >> > > > > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a> > > > > commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also> > wrote> > > > > Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and> > the> > > > > rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara.> > > > > >> > > > > > Regards,> > > > > >> > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > > >> > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...>> > > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology> > > > > > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his> > > > > generous response.> > > > > >> > > > > > For Shakadvipis, see> > > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya> > > > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira> > > > > > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the> > first> > > > > link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis.> > > > > >> > > > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in> > > > > Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the> > source> > > > > of this legend.> > > > > >> > > > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was> > > > > Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by> > Narpati.> > > > > 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private> > library of> > > > > the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view> > them> > > > > to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of> > Tantric> > > > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra,> > > > > like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate> > relates> > > > > to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic> > rites> > > > > like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to> > > > > Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala> > > > tantras.> > > > > >> > > > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus> > nirayana> > > > > in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two> > > > > schools have been created by modern authors.> > > > > >> > > > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for> > Indian> > > > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern> > meaning> > > > > of Tropical. I will elaborate it further.> > > > > >> > > > > > -VJ> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > > <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji,> > > > > > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king.> > Narapati> > > > > was a> > > > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the> > > > treatise ;> > > > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when> > > > Narapati's> > > > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> > > > > eulogies> > > > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> > > > > suggest him> > > > > > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati> > and> > > > the> > > > > > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book> > > > Narapati> > > > > > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him.> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis> > of> > > > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative> > > > argument> > > > > > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info> > and> > > > > > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who> > was> > > > > > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words -> > "Seriously> > > > > Tantra> > > > > > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric> > astrology?".> > > > > So I> > > > > > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not> > read> > > > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to> > read.> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme> > god of> > > > > > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like> > the> > > > > > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could> > give> > > > > more> > > > > > > light about the line of argument:> > > > > > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology> > > > > Chandra> > > > > > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf> > > > > > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology> > > > > Chandra% 20\> > > > > > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Varah> > > > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship> > him> > > > > even> > > > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they> > had> > > > gone> > > > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All> > this> > > > > > > information is totally new to me. What about the word> > "Kapitthala"> > > > > - is> > > > > > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to> > the> > > > name> > > > > > > "Shakaldvipi" (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ?> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This> > title> > > > is> > > > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > OK - Possible.> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most> > of> > > > > Kashmiri> > > > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were> > > > Tantric> > > > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering> > to> > > > > > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting> > Tantric> > > > idol> > > > > > > worship, temple worship etc.> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and> > > > tropical> > > > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology> > in> > > > Vedic> > > > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant> > > > colonialist> > > > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and> > > > wanted to> > > > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs> > speak> > > > > > > otherwise.> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > > > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is> > the> > > > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise,> > > > sunset,> > > > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant> > and> > > > > other> > > > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical> > astrology> > > > > even> > > > > > > > in the nirayana school.> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Agree.> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > Completely tropical astrology was never> > > > > > > > practised in India by anyone.> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in> > Atharvana> > > > > > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra> > and> > > > > > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is> > better> > > > to> > > > > > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory.> > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > If nirayana system is completely> > > > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the> > > > West.> > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > Agree.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink> > from> > > > that> > > > > > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we> > are> > > > > > > thirsty. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Love and Hugs,> > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > >> > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology,> > "vinayjhaa16"> > > > > > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king.> > Narapati> > > > > was a> > > > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the> > > > treatise ;> > > > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when> > > > Narapati's> > > > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> > > > > eulogies> > > > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> > > > > suggest him> > > > > > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis> > of> > > > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not> > read> > > > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to> > read.> > > > Varah> > > > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship> > him> > > > > even> > > > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they> > had> > > > gone> > > > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This> > title> > > > is> > > > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most> > of> > > > > Kashmiri> > > > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were> > > > Tantric> > > > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and> > > > tropical> > > > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology> > in> > > > Vedic> > > > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant> > > > colonialist> > > > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and> > > > wanted to> > > > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school,> > > > tropical> > > > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is> > the> > > > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise,> > > > sunset,> > > > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant> > and> > > > > other> > > > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical> > astrology> > > > > even> > > > > > > > in the nirayana school.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions> > > > > > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad> > brands> > > > :> > > > > > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was> > never> > > > > > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is> > completely> > > > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the> > > > West.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > -VJ> > > > > > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ =========> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology,> > "Sreenadh"> > > > > > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Sreenadh"> > > > <sreesog@>> > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers> > for> > > > > > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the> > 10th> > > > > > > > > century authentic text on astrology named "Narapati> > > > Jayacharya".> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam> > > > > > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam> > > > > > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam> > > > > > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam> > > > > > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim> > > > > > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha> > > > > > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha> > > > > > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale> > > > > > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana> > > > > > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya> > > > > > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century> > > > > > > AD)> > > > > > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after> > > > > referring> > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as -> > > > firstly> > > > > > > the 7> > > > > > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala,> > Adi> > > > > Yamala,> > > > > > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the> > Tantric> > > > > texts> > > > > > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam,> > > > > Rakshokhnam,> > > > > > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava> > patala> > > > > etc]> > > > > > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati> > > > > > > Jayacharya> > > > > > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?!> > > > > > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in> > the> > > > long> > > > > > > list> > > > > > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder> > struk??> > > > > > > > > > > Yap,> > > > > > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes> > from> > > > > > > ancient> > > > > > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of> > Daksha> > > > > > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora,> > Sounaka> > > > hora,> > > > > > > Surya> > > > > > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those> > available> > > > > > > quotes to> > > > > > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts> > do> > > > not> > > > > > > provide> > > > > > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not> > accept> > > > or> > > > > > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know).> > So> > > > > let us> > > > > > > go> > > > > > > > > by the datable and available texts.> > > > > > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora> > (Known> > > > as> > > > > > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or> > Yavanas> > > > > > > settled> > > > > > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.> > > > > > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well> > > > proved> > > > > > > by> > > > > > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a> > > > > Jain, and> > > > > > > also> > > > > > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his> > > > > > > father's> > > > > > > > > name is "Aditya Dasa". The Vedic brahmins does not use a> > name> > > > that> > > > > > > ends> > > > > > > > > in the word "Dasa" (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as> > per> > > > > > > Sanskrit> > > > > > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a> > foreigner> > > > > who come> > > > > > > and> > > > > > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa> > and> > > > > > > Mihira> > > > > > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins.> > > > > > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of> > Saravali> > > > > > > from> > > > > > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir,> > > > > Narapati the> > > > > > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near> > Ujjain.> > > > > > > Kalyana> > > > > > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests -> > > > > evidently a> > > > > > > not> > > > > > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric> > follower -> > > > > > > evidently> > > > > > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as> > > > evident> > > > > > > from> > > > > > > > > the quote I provided above.> > > > > > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita> > from> > > > > > > > Orissa.> > > > > > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a> > king> > > > > and a> > > > > > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic> > brahmin.> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin,> > > > > > > certainly> > > > > > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and> > was> > > > never> > > > > > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins!> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not,> > > > certainly> > > > > > > > it was> > > > > > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never> > > > supported> > > > > > > by> > > > > > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with> > Atharva> > > > > > > Parisishta,> > > > > > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate> > > > proofs> > > > > > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta -> > it> > > > > is well> > > > > > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic> > > > Brahmins;> > > > > > > no> > > > > > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!]> > > > > > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same.> > > > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Sreenadh"> > > > <sreesog@>> > > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > > > > > > ==>> > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any> > takers> > > > for> > > > > > > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > > > > > > <==> > > > > > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want> > to> > > > act> > > > > > > it.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that> > > > there is> > > > > > > scope> > > > > > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a> > start. > > > > > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ========> > > > > > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya> > > > > > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= =========> > ===The> > > > > available> > > > > > > text> > > > > > > > > on> > > > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15> > chapters> > > > and> > > > > > > 160> > > > > > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas "Siromani", meaning> > "gem> > > > > in the> > > > > > > > > head'.> > > > > > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord> > Parameswara> > > > > (lord> > > > > > > > > Siva)> > > > > > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala> > > > Mantra> > > > > > > > > (Medicine)> > > > > > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge> > > > > streams the> > > > > > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala> > > > > Mantra is> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine> > related> > > > > to the> > > > > > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others,> > > > > > > attracting> > > > > > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people> > leave> > > > > their> > > > > > > > > native> > > > > > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual> > ability> > > > etc.> > > > > > > Yes,> > > > > > > > > it> > > > > > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter> > thousands> > > > of> > > > > > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts,> > along> > > > > with gem> > > > > > > > > like> > > > > > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the> > > > > > > branch> > > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose> > of> > > > > knowing> > > > > > > > > about> > > > > > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these> > two> > > > (Kala> > > > > > > Tantra> > > > > > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with> > in> > > > the> > > > > > > > > available> > > > > > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to> > use> > > > > > > medicine> > > > > > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of> > Shadkarma> > > > > > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana,> > Akarshana)> > > > > etc.> > > > > > > But> > > > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra> > > > > (Astrology)> > > > > > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of> > > > > > > medicine> > > > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of> > medicinal> > > > > > > plants> > > > > > > > > are> > > > > > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have> > served> > > > some> > > > > > > secret> > > > > > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric> > > > culture.> > > > > > > Tantra> > > > > > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would> > have> > > > been> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even> > > > > though in> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like> > Homa> > > > etc]> > > > > > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and> > > > > > > KalaTantra,> > > > > > > > > we> > > > > > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that> > dealsmainly> > > > > with> > > > > > > > > Kala> > > > > > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals> > with> > > > Kala> > > > > > > > > Tantra> > > > > > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.> > > > > > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord> > Siva> > > > > > > > > -"Approaching> > > > > > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the> > wellwisher> > > > of> > > > > > > all> > > > > > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is> > Kailasa,humbly,> > > > with> > > > > > > > > folded> > > > > > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the> > > > devotees> > > > > > > > > please> > > > > > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra" In the same> > > > > > > style> > > > > > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as> > well> > > > > from> > > > > > > lord> > > > > > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra> > > > > (Astrology)> > > > > > > as> > > > > > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because> > > > > > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis> > text,> > > > can be> > > > > > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor> > this> > > > > > > conclusion.> > > > > > > > > As> > > > > > > > > > mentioned earlier, "Siromani" (gem in thehead) is> > another> > > > > name for> > > > > > > > > this> > > > > > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas "gem in the> > head"> > > > > by the> > > > > > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha-> > > > > > > "Like> > > > > > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a> > > > cobra,> > > > > > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like> > agem)"> > > > > > > > > > Yes, the praise "gem in the head" usually goes to> > KalaTantra> > > > -> > > > > > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics.> > Because> > > > ofthis> > > > > > > even> > > > > > > > > > the other name "Siromani" of Dattatreya> > Mahatantra,indicate> > > > > s that> > > > > > > Kala> > > > > > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the> > text.> > > > But> > > > > > > that> > > > > > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.> > > > > > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument.> > > > > Dattatreyagives> > > > > > > a> > > > > > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya> > Mahatantra> > > > atthe> > > > > > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are> > > > > mentioned,but> > > > > > > only> > > > > > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in> > > > theprinted> > > > > > > text.> > > > > > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9> > chapters)seems> > > > > to be> > > > > > > > > missing.> > > > > > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya> > > > Mahatantra> > > > > > > is an> > > > > > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question> > > > > > > > > > rises, "Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to> > > > learn> > > > > > > from> > > > > > > > > lord> > > > > > > > > > Siva?" No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra)> > that> > > > > could> > > > > > > be> > > > > > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma> > etc,> > > > he> > > > > > > might> > > > > > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that> > could be> > > > > made> > > > > > > use> > > > > > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva-> > > > > > > > > "In> > > > > > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta,> > tantricworships> > > > are> > > > > > > present.> > > > > > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand> > Damara,> > > > and in> > > > > > > many> > > > > > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala> > > > Tantra> > > > > > > that> > > > > > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra,> > Mantra> > > > etc)> > > > > > > 'in> > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions" This is what> > > > > > > Dattatreya> > > > > > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine> > > > > > > > > (Kala> > > > > > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help> > is> > > > > > > Shadkarma> > > > > > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This> > > > > knowledge> > > > > > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc.> > Dattatreya> > > > > > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge> > and> > > > > > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct> > method'.> > > > > > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word> > > > > Puranahere> > > > > > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda> > > > > > > hereindicates> > > > > > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called> > > > Brahmana,Aaranyaka,> > > > > > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama.> > Butfor> > > > > > > Tantric> > > > > > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So> > > > thestatement> > > > > > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both> > SivaTantra> > > > > > > (Agama)> > > > > > > > > and> > > > > > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is> > > > Vishnava> > > > > > > > > Tantra.> > > > > > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the> > request> > > > of> > > > > > > > > Dattatreya> > > > > > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and> > > > > teach him> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is> > > > beneficial> > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.> > > > > > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in> > > > acorrupted> > > > > > > state at> > > > > > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi> > it> > > > was> > > > > > > very> > > > > > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from> > the> > > > > pile.> > > > > > > The> > > > > > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas> > and> > > > > > > Puranas> > > > > > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from> > > > > Tantrics and> > > > > > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the> > > > > > > pain of> > > > > > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret> > knowledge> > > > is> > > > > > > > > becoming> > > > > > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be> > the> > > > > > > heritage of> > > > > > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - "This great> > > > > > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one> > who> > > > > devotes> > > > > > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even> > for> > > > davas,> > > > > > > first> > > > > > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all> > secret> > > > > > > knowledge> > > > > > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the> > true> > > > > > > devotee of> > > > > > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to> > persons> > > > > who does> > > > > > > not> > > > > > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of> > knowledge.> > > > One> > > > > > > should> > > > > > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong> > > > > willed and> > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > a> > > > > > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone" The statement,> > > > > > > "Astrology is> > > > > > > > > > originated from lord Siva"(Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks> > for> > > > > special> > > > > > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th> > century)> > > > this> > > > > > > truth> > > > > > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read> > > > > horoscope,> > > > > > > or> > > > > > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara> > > > (Siva).> > > > > > > This> > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord> > Siva in> > > > the> > > > > > > form> > > > > > > > > of> > > > > > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the> > > > ultimate> > > > > > > Guru> > > > > > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric> > > > tradition.> > > > > > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we> > > > considerthe> > > > > > > concept> > > > > > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per> > differentschools of> > > > > > > > > astrology,> > > > > > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma> > > > > > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva> > > > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda> > > > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma> > > > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in> > > > concept> > > > > > > about> > > > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these> > are> > > > all> > > > > > > > > different> > > > > > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably> > originated> > > > and> > > > > > > existed> > > > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts> > (Such as> > > > > Rasi> > > > > > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got> > intermixed> > > > > in a> > > > > > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic> > > > concepts> > > > > > > such> > > > > > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some> > > > > > > > > othercivilization> > > > > > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as> > > > > > > theSindhu-Saraswati> > > > > > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences> > could> > > > > prove> > > > > > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or> > not.> > > > > > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the> > > > astrologicalcontent in> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus> > go> > > > back> > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines> > > > > could be> > > > > > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells> > > > > > > Dattatreya -> > > > > > > > > > "Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial> > > > forthe> > > > > > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on> > > > > > > medicine)which> > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you,> > > > > puttingaside> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > knowledge of astrology"Because - "(For the benefit> > > > > > > with> > > > > > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi,> > Nakshatra,> > > > > Vreta,> > > > > > > Day,> > > > > > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an> > > > auspicious> > > > > > > muhoorta> > > > > > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits> > > > > well for> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the> > use of> > > > it> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their> > > > effect> > > > > > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to> > use> > > > > these> > > > > > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice> > > > > > > lord> > > > > > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since> > > > those> > > > > > > slokas> > > > > > > > > are> > > > > > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here.> > If> > > > > anyone> > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya> > > > Mahatantra> > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > know> > > > > > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the> > > > > > > available> > > > > > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra> > (Astrology).> > > > The> > > > > > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject> > discussed.> > > > Siva> > > > > > > said:> > > > > > > > > > "Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of> > > > > > > humanbeings I> > > > > > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen"> > > > Dwadesa> > > > > > > dala> > > > > > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa> > > > sankhayani> > > > > > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi> > > > likhyate> > > > > > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante> > mrityukarakeSurya> > > > > vedhe> > > > > > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha> > jeeve> > > > cha> > > > > > > chandre> > > > > > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase> > > > > vicharayete> > > > > > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra)" From the Rasichakra with 12> > petals,> > > > > we can> > > > > > > > > have> > > > > > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the> > > > > numbers of> > > > > > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal.> > In> > > > > each of> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per> > current> > > > > > > planetary> > > > > > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon> > etc> > > > in> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects> > > > > (Drishti)> > > > > > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death> > time.> > > > If> > > > > > > Vedha> > > > > > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury -> > happiness,> > > > > > > forJupiter> > > > > > > > > -> > > > > > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts> > withwomen,> > > > for> > > > > > > Venus> > > > > > > > > -> > > > > > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done> > > > every> > > > > > > month"> > > > > > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of> > Gochara-Vedha> > > > > > > ismentioned> > > > > > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and> > > > RasiVedha> > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for> > > > KalaMrityu> > > > > > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka> > > > > > > was> > > > > > > > > a> > > > > > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will> > > > > explain.(1)> > > > > > > > > > Mention of months starting from> > > > > > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- ---------> > > > > > > Why it> > > > > > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we> > shouldwrite> > > > > down the> > > > > > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra> > in> > > > each> > > > > > > > > square> > > > > > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that -> > > > > > > Chaitra> > > > > > > > > => > > > > > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ?> > > > > > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries> > should> > > > > > > > > becalculated,> > > > > > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if> > thepoint> > > > > 180 deg> > > > > > > > > away> > > > > > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe> > > > like?(2)> > > > > > > Mrityu> > > > > > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn> > > > > > > mentioned> > > > > > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings "Janma> > > > riksha> > > > > > > janma> > > > > > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare" , directlymentioning> > Saturn> > > > would> > > > > > > have> > > > > > > > > been> > > > > > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly> > mentioning> > > > > > > Saturn> > > > > > > > > and> > > > > > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of> > death) ?> > > > > > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should> > > > beconsidered,> > > > > > > then> > > > > > > > > what> > > > > > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3)> > Riksha> > > > -> > > > > > > Nakshatra> > > > > > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word> > > > > > > Riksha> > > > > > > > > has> > > > > > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma> > > > Riksha> > > > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna> > > > > sign, Moon> > > > > > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word> > Riksha> > > > > > > > > represents> > > > > > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should> > consider> > > > both> > > > > > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime> > determination?> > > > > How to> > > > > > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary> > > > context?(4)> > > > > > > Vedha> > > > > > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- ---------> > ---------> > > > > -------> > > > > > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it> > > > issaid> > > > > > > that> > > > > > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory> > > > tothe> > > > > > > Vedha> > > > > > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many> > > > typesof> > > > > > > Vedha is> > > > > > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha> > > > andGraha> > > > > > > Vedha> > > > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved> > > > while> > > > > > > > > predicting> > > > > > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or> > > > > > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha> > > > > > > system> > > > > > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month> > (Mase> > > > mase> > > > > > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that> > Transit> > > > > > > should be> > > > > > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why> > he> > > > > > > avoided> > > > > > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu> > and> > > > > > > Ketu?(6)> > > > > > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- ---------> > ---------> > > > -> > > > > > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the> > > > personwho> > > > > > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here> > > > > weencounter> > > > > > > a> > > > > > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well!> > Whatshould> > > > we> > > > > > > > > observe> > > > > > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya> > Tantraoriginated> > > > after> > > > > > > > > Sripati> > > > > > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati> > borrowed> > > > the> > > > > > > > > concept> > > > > > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from> > Dattatreya> > > > > Tantra?> > > > > > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to> > > > > findanswers> > > > > > > to> > > > > > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of> > > > > theastrology> > > > > > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a> > must.> > > > > > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we> > > > canclassify> > > > > > > them> > > > > > > > > into> > > > > > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati> > > > period> > > > > > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned> > Vedas> > > > and> > > > > > > allied> > > > > > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned> > Epics> > > > > (Epic> > > > > > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic> > > > > > > Astrology)(v)> > > > > > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology)> > -> > > > Itis> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a> > > > > > > wholesecret> > > > > > > > > > tradition) waiting for us> > Astrology> > > > of> > > > > > > Arsha> > > > > > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological> > > > texts.> > > > > > > This> > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with> > > > Skanda> > > > > > > Hora,> > > > > > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The> > > > acharyas> > > > > > > in> > > > > > > > > this> > > > > > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta,> > > > Kousika,> > > > > > > Sounaka> > > > > > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'.> > > > (Arsha> > > > > > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of> > > > > > > thought](vii)> > > > > > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in> > > > variousancient> > > > > > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in> > > > > > > Indianastrology> > > > > > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc.> > Theacharyas> > > > in> > > > > > > this> > > > > > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes,> > of> > > > > course> > > > > > > > > there> > > > > > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and> > > > > Parasara. But> > > > > > > > > books> > > > > > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why> > I am> > > > not> > > > > > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a> > > > single> > > > > > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths> > of> > > > > any of> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area> > available> > > > for> > > > > > > > > research!> > > > > > > > > > They are requesting tous, "please, please, come forward> > and> > > > > reveal> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you..." All this ancient> > knowledge> > > > on> > > > > > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half> > > > forgotten,> > > > > > > > > unexplored> > > > > > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,> > > > > > > > > > "TamasomaJyotirgama ya...". Yes, there is a large amount> > of> > > > work> > > > > > > > > pending,> > > > > > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these> > knowledge> > > > is> > > > > > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to> > shower> > > > > their> > > > > > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who> > are> > > > truly> > > > > > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us> > begin> > > > our> > > > > > > search> > > > > > > > > for> > > > > > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It> > is> > > > > > > child's> > > > > > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be> > > > explored!> > > > > > > Let> > > > > > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before> > the> > > > > all,> > > > > > > > > forthe> > > > > > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of> > learning!Love,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ========> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, "Bhadraiah> > > > > Mallampalli"> > > > > > > > > > vaidix@ wrote:> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar,> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of> > > > interest.> > > > > > > That> > > > > > > > > is> > > > > > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give> > > > > > > *everything*> > > > > > > > > its> > > > > > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your> > reply.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > "Veda" is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it> > is> > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > equivalent of "papers" published by scientists or> > > > > > > mathematicians. A> > > > > > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as> > claimed> > > > by> > > > > > > the> > > > > > > > > > > author. The "journal" is the compilation of such> > articles> > > > and> > > > > > > can be> > > > > > > > > > > called "veda" in the modern sense.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific> > > > > documents are> > > > > > > not> > > > > > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or> > uninterpreted> > > > > results> > > > > > > (we> > > > > > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other> > names. To> > > > > > > discard> > > > > > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the> > > > > unpublished> > > > > > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers> > (veda)> > > > is> > > > > > > stupid.> > > > > > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of> > > > > relativity from> > > > > > > > > > > Newton's works.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we> > don't> > > > > > > understand> > > > > > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention> > the> > > > > total> > > > > > > > > Vedic> > > > > > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally> > existed> > > > > (well,> > > > > > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of> > each> > > > > veda> > > > > > > are> > > > > > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing> > veda> > > > > > > > > > > as "tantra" because we can hardly understand anything> > in> > > > it.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any> > takers> > > > for> > > > > > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy> > out> > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > it. "Vedic" astrology is beyond visibility for now,> > and> > > > > > > > > inconceivable> > > > > > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some> > > > universal> > > > > > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is> > interpreted> > > > > > > completely> > > > > > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with> > claim> > > > of> > > > > > > > > > > astrology as a veda.> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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