Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Dear Vinayji, I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word "Kaula" itself comes from the word "Kula", which means family. Others can practice tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason. These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in the past and that created a bad image for Tantra. Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself : " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim. Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in God. Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine. There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri Tantra was practised by demon-worsh-ppers. What Meghnada was doing with Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing some religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy. There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc in Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is Asurakota. Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the rules of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta texts used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is slayed! Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during most of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra stotras for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-), ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed the real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates). I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad tantric mantras. Even the " peetvaa.. " shloka is positively translated by a vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in astrology. -VJ , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Vinayji, > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word " Kaula " itself comes from the word " Kula " , which means family. Others can practice tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason. These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in the past and that created a bad image for Tantra. > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 > Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology > > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his generous response. > > For Shakadvipis, see > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source of this legend. > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate relates to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras. > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two schools have been created by modern authors. > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for Indian definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning of Tropical. I will elaborate it further. > > -VJ > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > Thanks for the informative post. > > ==> > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was a > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ; > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with eulogies > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest him > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > <== > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and the > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book Narapati > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him. > > ==> > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > <== > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative argument > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - " Seriously Tantra > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology? " . So I > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > ==> > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > > <== > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give more > > light about the line of argument: > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology Chandra > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology Chandra% 20\ > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf> > > > > ==> > > > Varah > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him even > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > <== > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this > > information is totally new to me. What about the word " Kapitthala " - is > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the name > > " Shakaldvipi " (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ? > > ==> > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > <== > > OK - Possible. > > ==> > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of Kashmiri > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > <== > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric idol > > worship, temple worship etc. > > ==> > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E > > <== > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak > > otherwise. > > ==> > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset, > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and other > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology even > > > in the nirayana school. > > <== > > Agree. > > ==> > > > Completely tropical astrology was never > > > practised in India by anyone. > > <== > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better to > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory. > > ==> > > > If nirayana system is completely > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West. > > <== > > Agree. > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from that > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are > > thirsty. > > > > Love and Hugs, > > Sreenadh > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " vinayjhaa16 " > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post. > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was a > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ; > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with eulogies > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest him > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. Varah > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him even > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of Kashmiri > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset, > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and other > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology even > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands : > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West. > > > > > > -VJ > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ ========= > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > ==> > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > <== > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th > > > > century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati Jayacharya " . > > > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century > > AD) > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after referring > > to > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly > > the 7 > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi Yamala, > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric texts > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, Rakshokhnam, > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala etc] > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati > > Jayacharya > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?! > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the long > > list > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > Yap, > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance. > > > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from > > ancient > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora, > > Surya > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available > > quotes to > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not > > provide > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So let us > > go > > > > by the datable and available texts. > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known as > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas > > settled > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure. > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well proved > > by > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a Jain, and > > also > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > father's > > > > name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a name that > > ends > > > > in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per > > Sanskrit > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner who come > > and > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and > > Mihira > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins. > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali > > from > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, Narapati the > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. > > Kalyana > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - evidently a > > not > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - > > evidently > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident > > from > > > > the quote I provided above. > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from > > > Orissa. > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king and a > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin. > > > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be - > > > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, > > certainly > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins! > > > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly > > > it was > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported > > by > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva > > Parisishta, > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it is well > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins; > > no > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!] > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > ==> > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > <== > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to act > > it. > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is > > scope > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= ===The available > > text > > > > on > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and > > 160 > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning " gem in the > > > > head'. > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara (lord > > > > Siva) > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra > > > > (Medicine) > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge streams the > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala Mantra is > > the > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related to the > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, > > attracting > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave their > > > > native > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc. > > Yes, > > > > it > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along with gem > > > > like > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the > > branch > > > > of > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of knowing > > > > about > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala > > Tantra > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the > > > > available > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use > > medicine > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) etc. > > But > > > > we > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra (Astrology) > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of > > medicine > > > > in > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal > > plants > > > > are > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some > > secret > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture. > > Tantra > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been > > the > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even though in > > the > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc] > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and > > KalaTantra, > > > > we > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly with > > > > Kala > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala > > > > Tantra > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime. > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva > > > > - " Approaching > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of > > all > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with > > > > folded > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees > > > > please > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the same > > style > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well from > > lord > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra (Astrology) > > as > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this > > conclusion. > > > > As > > > > > mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is another name for > > > > this > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the head " by the > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > " Like > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra, > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem) " > > > > > Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to KalaTantra - > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis > > even > > > > > the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicate s that > > Kala > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But > > that > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore. > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument. Dattatreyagives > > a > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are mentioned,but > > only > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted > > text. > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 chapters)seems to be > > > > missing. > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra > > is an > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question > > > > > rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn > > from > > > > lord > > > > > Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that could > > be > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he > > might > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be made > > use > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva- > > > > " In > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are > > present. > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in > > many > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra > > that > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc) > > 'in > > > > the > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what > > Dattatreya > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine > > > > (Kala > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is > > Shadkarma > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This knowledge > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'. > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word Puranahere > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda > > hereindicates > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka, > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor > > Tantric > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra > > (Agama) > > > > and > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava > > > > Tantra. > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and teach him > > the > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial > > for > > > > the > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method. > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted > > state at > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was > > very > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the pile. > > The > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and > > Puranas > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from Tantrics and > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the > > pain of > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is > > > > becoming > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the > > heritage of > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This great > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who devotes > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas, > > first > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret > > knowledge > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true > > devotee of > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons who does > > not > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One > > should > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong willed and > > is > > > > a > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, > > " Astrology is > > > > > originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for special > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this > > truth > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read horoscope, > > or > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva). > > This > > > > is > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the > > form > > > > of > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate > > Guru > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition. > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe > > concept > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of > > > > astrology, > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in concept > > about > > > > the > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all > > > > different > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and > > existed > > > > in > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as Rasi > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed in a > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts > > such > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some > > > > othercivilization > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as > > theSindhu-Saraswati > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could prove > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not. > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in > > the > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back > > to > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines could be > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells > > Dattatreya - > > > > > " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on > > medicine)which > > > > is > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, puttingaside > > the > > > > > knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the benefit > > with > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, Vreta, > > Day, > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious > > muhoorta > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits well for > > the > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it > > the > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use these > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice > > lord > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since those > > slokas > > > > are > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If anyone > > is > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra > > to > > > > know > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the > > available > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva > > said: > > > > > " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of > > humanbeings I > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " Dwadesa > > dala > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya vedhe > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha > > chandre > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase vicharayete > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, we can > > > > have > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the numbers of > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In each of > > the > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current > > planetary > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in > > the > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects (Drishti) > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If > > Vedha > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, > > forJupiter > > > > - > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for > > Venus > > > > - > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every > > month " > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha > > ismentioned > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha > > is > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka > > was > > > > a > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will explain.(1) > > > > > Mention of months starting from > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > Why it > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite down the > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each > > > > square > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > Chaitra > > > > = > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ? > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should > > > > becalculated, > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint 180 deg > > > > away > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2) > > Mrityu > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn > > mentioned > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma riksha > > janma > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning Saturn would > > have > > > > been > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning > > Saturn > > > > and > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ? > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered, > > then > > > > what > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) Riksha - > > Nakshatra > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word > > Riksha > > > > has > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna sign, Moon > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha > > > > represents > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? How to > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4) > > Vedha > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- --------- ------- > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid > > that > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe > > Vedha > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof > > Vedha is > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha > > Vedha > > > > in > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while > > > > predicting > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha > > system > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit > > should be > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he > > avoided > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and > > Ketu?(6) > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here weencounter > > a > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we > > > > observe > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after > > > > Sripati > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the > > > > concept > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya Tantra? > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to findanswers > > to > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of theastrology > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must. > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify > > them > > > > into > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and > > allied > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned Epics (Epic > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic > > Astrology)(v) > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis > > the > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a > > wholesecret > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology of > > Arsha > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts. > > This > > > > is > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda > > Hora, > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas > > in > > > > this > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika, > > Sounaka > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of > > thought](vii) > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in > > Indianastrology > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in > > this > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of course > > > > there > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and Parasara. But > > > > books > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of any of > > the > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for > > > > research! > > > > > They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward and reveal > > the > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient knowledge on > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten, > > > > unexplored > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us, > > > > > " TamasomaJyotirgama ya... " . Yes, there is a large amount of work > > > > pending, > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower their > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our > > search > > > > for > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is > > child's > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored! > > Let > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the all, > > > > forthe > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love, Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Bhadraiah Mallampalli " > > > > > vaidix@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar, > > > > > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest. > > That > > > > is > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give > > *everything* > > > > its > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the > > > > > > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or > > mathematicians. A > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by > > the > > > > > > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles and > > can be > > > > > > called " veda " in the modern sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific documents are > > not > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted results > > (we > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To > > discard > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the unpublished > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is > > stupid. > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of relativity from > > > > > > Newton's works. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't > > understand > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the total > > > > Vedic > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed (well, > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each veda > > are > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda > > > > > > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of > > > > > > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and > > > > inconceivable > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted > > completely > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of > > > > > > astrology as a veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Dear Vinay ji, The underlying principle of Pancha Makara methods discussed in Kularnava Tantra is quoted in the preface of the available transilation of that book itself - why don't you quote that as well. And look at the quote given by you in the light of that quote?! I hope, if you did so, your opinion will change. Hope see that quote also from you. :)Love and regards,Sreenadh , "vinayjhaa16" <vinayjhaa16 wrote:>> Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself :> > "Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale;> Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate !"> > Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim.> Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in God.> Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine.> > There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri Tantra> was practised by demon-worsh-ppers. What Meghnada was doing with> Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing some> religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a> devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy.> > There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc in> Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is Asurakota.> Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of> Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the rules> of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta texts> used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which> invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is slayed! > > Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during most> of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra stotras> for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-),> ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed the> real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates).> > I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad tantric> mantras. Even the "peetvaa.." shloka is positively translated by a> vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am> concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in astrology.> > -VJ> > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya> sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote:> >> > Dear Vinayji,> > > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory> Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad> name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why> the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should> practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word "Kaula" itself> comes from the word "Kula", which means family. Others can practice> tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing> age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason.> These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the> fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in> the past and that created a bad image for Tantra.> > > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a> commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote> Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the> rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara.> > > > Regards,> > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > > > vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@> > Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology> > > > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his> generous response.> > > > For Shakadvipis, see > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya> > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira> > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first> link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in> Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source> of this legend.> > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was> Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. > 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of> the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them> to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric> texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra,> like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate relates> to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites> like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to> Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras.> > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana> in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two> schools have been created by modern authors. > > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for Indian> definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning> of Tropical. I will elaborate it further.> > > > -VJ> > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Vinay ji,> > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > ==>> > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati> was a> > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> eulogies> > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> suggest him> > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > <==> > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and the> > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book Narapati> > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him.> > > ==>> > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > <==> > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative argument> > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and> > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was> > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - "Seriously> Tantra> > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology?".> So I> > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > ==>> > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read.> > > <==> > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of> > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the> > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give> more> > > light about the line of argument:> > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology> Chandra> > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf> > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology> Chandra% 20\> > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf>> > > > > > ==>> > > > Varah> > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him> even> > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > <==> > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this> > > information is totally new to me. What about the word "Kapitthala"> - is> > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the name> > > "Shakaldvipi" (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ?> > > ==>> > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > <==> > > OK - Possible.> > > ==>> > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> Kashmiri> > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > <==> > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to> > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric idol> > > worship, temple worship etc.> > > ==>> > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E> > > <==> > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak> > > otherwise.> > > ==>> > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and> other> > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology> even> > > > in the nirayana school.> > > <==> > > Agree.> > > ==>> > > > Completely tropical astrology was never> > > > practised in India by anyone.> > > <==> > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana> > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and> > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better to> > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory.> > > ==>> > > > If nirayana system is completely> > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.> > > <==> > > Agree.> > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from that> > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are> > > thirsty. > > > > > > Love and Hugs,> > > Sreenadh> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "vinayjhaa16"> > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > > >> > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post.> > > >> > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati> was a> > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> eulogies> > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> suggest him> > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > >> > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > >> > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. Varah> > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him> even> > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > >> > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > >> > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> Kashmiri> > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > >> > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and> other> > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology> even> > > > in the nirayana school.> > > >> > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions> > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands :> > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never> > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely> > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.> > > >> > > > -VJ> > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ =========> > > >> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > hinducivilization, "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > ==>> > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > <==> > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th> > > > > century authentic text on astrology named "Narapati Jayacharya".> > > > >> > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam> > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam> > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam> > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam> > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim> > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha> > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha> > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale> > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana> > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya> > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century> > > AD)> > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after> referring> > > to> > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly> > > the 7> > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi> Yamala,> > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric> texts> > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam,> Rakshokhnam,> > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala> etc]> > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati> > > Jayacharya> > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?!> > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the long> > > list> > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > > Yap,> > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.> > > > >> > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from> > > ancient> > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha> > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora,> > > Surya> > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available> > > quotes to> > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not> > > provide> > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or> > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So> let us> > > go> > > > > by the datable and available texts.> > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known as> > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas> > > settled> > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.> > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well proved> > > by> > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a> Jain, and> > > also> > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > > father's> > > > > name is "Aditya Dasa". The Vedic brahmins does not use a name that> > > ends> > > > > in the word "Dasa" (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per> > > Sanskrit> > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner> who come> > > and> > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and> > > Mihira> > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins.> > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali> > > from> > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir,> Narapati the> > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain.> > > Kalyana> > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests -> evidently a> > > not> > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower -> > > evidently> > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident> > > from> > > > > the quote I provided above.> > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from> > > > Orissa.> > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king> and a> > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin.> > > > >> > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -> > > > >> > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin,> > > certainly> > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never> > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins!> > > > >> > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly> > > > it was> > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported> > > by> > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva> > > Parisishta,> > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs> > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it> is well> > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins;> > > no> > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!]> > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > > Regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > hinducivilization, "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > > <==> > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to act> > > it.> > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is> > > scope> > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > >> > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ========> > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya> > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= ===The> available> > > text> > > > > on> > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and> > > 160> > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas "Siromani", meaning "gem> in the> > > > > head'.> > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara> (lord> > > > > Siva)> > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra> > > > > (Medicine)> > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge> streams the> > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala> Mantra is> > > the> > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related> to the> > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others,> > > attracting> > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave> their> > > > > native> > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc.> > > Yes,> > > > > it> > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of> > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along> with gem> > > > > like> > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the> > > branch> > > > > of> > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of> knowing> > > > > about> > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala> > > Tantra> > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the> > > > > available> > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use> > > medicine> > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma> > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana)> etc.> > > But> > > > > we> > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra> (Astrology)> > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of> > > medicine> > > > > in> > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal> > > plants> > > > > are> > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some> > > secret> > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture.> > > Tantra> > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been> > > the> > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even> though in> > > the> > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc]> > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and> > > KalaTantra,> > > > > we> > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly> with> > > > > Kala> > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala> > > > > Tantra> > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.> > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva> > > > > -"Approaching> > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of> > > all> > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with> > > > > folded> > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees> > > > > please> > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra" In the same> > > style> > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well> from> > > lord> > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra> (Astrology)> > > as> > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because> > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be> > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this> > > conclusion.> > > > > As> > > > > > mentioned earlier, "Siromani" (gem in thehead) is another> name for> > > > > this> > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas "gem in the head"> by the> > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > > "Like> > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra,> > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem)"> > > > > > Yes, the praise "gem in the head" usually goes to KalaTantra -> > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis> > > even> > > > > > the other name "Siromani" of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicate> s that> > > Kala> > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But> > > that> > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.> > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument.> Dattatreyagives> > > a> > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe> > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are> mentioned,but> > > only> > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted> > > text.> > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 chapters)seems> to be> > > > > missing.> > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra> > > is an> > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question> > > > > > rises, "Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn> > > from> > > > > lord> > > > > > Siva?" No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that> could> > > be> > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he> > > might> > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be> made> > > use> > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva-> > > > > "In> > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are> > > present.> > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in> > > many> > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra> > > that> > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc)> > > 'in> > > > > the> > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions" This is what> > > Dattatreya> > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine> > > > > (Kala> > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is> > > Shadkarma> > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This> knowledge> > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya> > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and> > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'.> > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word> Puranahere> > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda> > > hereindicates> > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka,> > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor> > > Tantric> > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement> > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra> > > (Agama)> > > > > and> > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava> > > > > Tantra.> > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of> > > > > Dattatreya> > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and> teach him> > > the> > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial> > > for> > > > > the> > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.> > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted> > > state at> > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was> > > very> > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the> pile.> > > The> > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and> > > Puranas> > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from> Tantrics and> > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the> > > pain of> > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is> > > > > becoming> > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the> > > heritage of> > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - "This great> > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who> devotes> > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas,> > > first> > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret> > > knowledge> > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true> > > devotee of> > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons> who does> > > not> > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One> > > should> > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong> willed and> > > is> > > > > a> > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone" The statement,> > > "Astrology is> > > > > > originated from lord Siva"(Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for> special> > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this> > > truth> > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read> horoscope,> > > or> > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva).> > > This> > > > > is> > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the> > > form> > > > > of> > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate> > > Guru> > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition.> > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe> > > concept> > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of> > > > > astrology,> > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma> > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva> > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda> > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma> > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in concept> > > about> > > > > the> > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all> > > > > different> > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and> > > existed> > > > > in> > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as> Rasi> > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed> in a> > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts> > > such> > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some> > > > > othercivilization> > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as> > > theSindhu-Saraswati> > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could> prove> > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not.> > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in> > > the> > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back> > > to> > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines> could be> > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells> > > Dattatreya -> > > > > > "Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe> > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on> > > medicine)which> > > > > is> > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you,> puttingaside> > > the> > > > > > knowledge of astrology"Because - "(For the benefit> > > with> > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra,> Vreta,> > > Day,> > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious> > > muhoorta> > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits> well for> > > the> > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it> > > the> > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect> > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use> these> > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice> > > lord> > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since those> > > slokas> > > > > are> > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If> anyone> > > is> > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra> > > to> > > > > know> > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the> > > available> > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The> > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva> > > said:> > > > > > "Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of> > > humanbeings I> > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen" Dwadesa> > > dala> > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani> > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate> > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya> vedhe> > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha> > > chandre> > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase> vicharayete> > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra)" From the Rasichakra with 12 petals,> we can> > > > > have> > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the> numbers of> > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In> each of> > > the> > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current> > > planetary> > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in> > > the> > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects> (Drishti)> > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If> > > Vedha> > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness,> > > forJupiter> > > > > -> > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for> > > Venus> > > > > -> > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every> > > month"> > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha> > > ismentioned> > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha> > > is> > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu> > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka> > > was> > > > > a> > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will> explain.(1)> > > > > > Mention of months starting from> > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > Why it> > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite> down the> > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each> > > > > square> > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > > Chaitra> > > > > => > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ?> > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should> > > > > becalculated,> > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint> 180 deg> > > > > away> > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2)> > > Mrityu> > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn> > > mentioned> > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings "Janma riksha> > > janma> > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare" , directlymentioning Saturn would> > > have> > > > > been> > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning> > > Saturn> > > > > and> > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ?> > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered,> > > then> > > > > what> > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) Riksha -> > > Nakshatra> > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word> > > Riksha> > > > > has> > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha> > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna> sign, Moon> > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha> > > > > represents> > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both> > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination?> How to> > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4)> > > Vedha> > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- ---------> -------> > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid> > > that> > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe> > > Vedha> > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof> > > Vedha is> > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha> > > Vedha> > > > > in> > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while> > > > > predicting> > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or> > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha> > > system> > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase> > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit> > > should be> > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he> > > avoided> > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and> > > Ketu?(6)> > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho> > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here> weencounter> > > a> > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we> > > > > observe> > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after> > > > > Sripati> > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the> > > > > concept> > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya> Tantra?> > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to> findanswers> > > to> > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of> theastrology> > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must.> > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify> > > them> > > > > into> > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period> > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and> > > allied> > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned Epics> (Epic> > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic> > > Astrology)(v)> > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis> > > the> > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a> > > wholesecret> > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology of> > > Arsha> > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts.> > > This> > > > > is> > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda> > > Hora,> > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas> > > in> > > > > this> > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika,> > > Sounaka> > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha> > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of> > > thought](vii)> > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient> > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in> > > Indianastrology> > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in> > > this> > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of> course> > > > > there> > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and> Parasara. But> > > > > books> > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not> > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single> > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of> any of> > > the> > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for> > > > > research!> > > > > > They are requesting tous, "please, please, come forward and> reveal> > > the> > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you..." All this ancient knowledge on> > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten,> > > > > unexplored> > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,> > > > > > "TamasomaJyotirgama ya...". Yes, there is a large amount of work> > > > > pending,> > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is> > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower> their> > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly> > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our> > > search> > > > > for> > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is> > > child's> > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored!> > > Let> > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the> all,> > > > > forthe> > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love,> Sreenadh> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ========> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > hinducivilization, "Bhadraiah> Mallampalli"> > > > > > vaidix@ wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest.> > > That> > > > > is> > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give> > > *everything*> > > > > its> > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > "Veda" is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the> > > > > > > equivalent of "papers" published by scientists or> > > mathematicians. A> > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by> > > the> > > > > > > author. The "journal" is the compilation of such articles and> > > can be> > > > > > > called "veda" in the modern sense.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific> documents are> > > not> > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted> results> > > (we> > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To> > > discard> > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the> unpublished> > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is> > > stupid.> > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of> relativity from> > > > > > > Newton's works.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't> > > understand> > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the> total> > > > > Vedic> > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed> (well,> > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each> veda> > > are> > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda> > > > > > > as "tantra" because we can hardly understand anything in it.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of> > > > > > > it. "Vedic" astrology is beyond visibility for now, and> > > > > inconceivable> > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal> > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted> > > completely> > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of> > > > > > > astrology as a veda.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Bhadraiah> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 I had said : " Even the peetvaa.. shloka is positively translated by a vaishnava. " There are all types of tantrics, good and bad. I am pointing fingers at the bad guys. If you feel offended, I apologize again. But I am not going to change my views, nor will you. It is only a Word Of God that has the power to change human heart. Sincerely, -VJ , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Vinay ji, > The underlying principle of Pancha Makara methods discussed in > Kularnava Tantra is quoted in the preface of the available transilation > of that book itself - why don't you quote that as well. And look at the > quote given by you in the light of that quote?! I hope, if you did so, > your opinion will change. Hope see that quote also from you. > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > , " vinayjhaa16 " > <vinayjhaa16@> wrote: > > > > Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself : > > > > " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; > > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " > > > > Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim. > > Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in God. > > Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine. > > > > There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri Tantra > > was practised by demon-worsh-ppers. What Meghnada was doing with > > Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing some > > religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a > > devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy. > > > > There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc in > > Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is Asurakota. > > Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of > > Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the rules > > of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta texts > > used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which > > invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is > slayed! > > > > Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during most > > of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra stotras > > for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-), > > ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed the > > real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates). > > > > I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad tantric > > mantras. Even the " peetvaa.. " shloka is positively translated by a > > vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am > > concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in astrology. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya > > sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory > > Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad > > name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why > > the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should > > practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word " Kaula " itself > > comes from the word " Kula " , which means family. Others can practice > > tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing > > age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason. > > These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the > > fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in > > the past and that created a bad image for Tantra. > > > > > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a > > commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote > > Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the > > rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ > > > Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology > > > > > > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his > > generous response. > > > > > > For Shakadvipis, see > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira > > > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first > > link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > > > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in > > Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source > > of this legend. > > > > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was > > Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. > > 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of > > the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them > > to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, > > like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate relates > > to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites > > like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to > > Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala > tantras. > > > > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana > > in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two > > schools have been created by modern authors. > > > > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for Indian > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning > > of Tropical. I will elaborate it further. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > > ==> > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > > was a > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the > treatise ; > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > Narapati's > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > eulogies > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > > suggest him > > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > <== > > > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and > the > > > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book > Narapati > > > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him. > > > > ==> > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > <== > > > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative > argument > > > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and > > > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was > > > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - " Seriously > > Tantra > > > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology? " . > > So I > > > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > > ==> > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > > > > <== > > > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of > > > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the > > > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give > > more > > > > light about the line of argument: > > > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > > Chandra > > > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf > > > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > > Chandra% 20\ > > > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf> > > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > Varah > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > > even > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had > gone > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > <== > > > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this > > > > information is totally new to me. What about the word " Kapitthala " > > - is > > > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the > name > > > > " Shakaldvipi " (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ? > > > > ==> > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title > is > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > <== > > > > OK - Possible. > > > > ==> > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > > Kashmiri > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were > Tantric > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > <== > > > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to > > > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric > idol > > > > worship, temple worship etc. > > > > ==> > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and > tropical > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in > Vedic > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > colonialist > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and > wanted to > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E > > > > <== > > > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak > > > > otherwise. > > > > ==> > > > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, > sunset, > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > > other > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > > even > > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > <== > > > > Agree. > > > > ==> > > > > > Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > > practised in India by anyone. > > > > <== > > > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana > > > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and > > > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better > to > > > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory. > > > > ==> > > > > > If nirayana system is completely > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the > West. > > > > <== > > > > Agree. > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from > that > > > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are > > > > thirsty. > > > > > > > > Love and Hugs, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " vinayjhaa16 " > > > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post. > > > > > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > > was a > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the > treatise ; > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > Narapati's > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > eulogies > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > > suggest him > > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > Varah > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > > even > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had > gone > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title > is > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > > Kashmiri > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were > Tantric > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and > tropical > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in > Vedic > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > colonialist > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and > wanted to > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, > tropical > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, > sunset, > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > > other > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > > even > > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions > > > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands > : > > > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the > West. > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ ========= > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th > > > > > > century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati > Jayacharya " . > > > > > > > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam > > > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam > > > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam > > > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam > > > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim > > > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha > > > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha > > > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale > > > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana > > > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya > > > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century > > > > AD) > > > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after > > referring > > > > to > > > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - > firstly > > > > the 7 > > > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi > > Yamala, > > > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric > > texts > > > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, > > Rakshokhnam, > > > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala > > etc] > > > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati > > > > Jayacharya > > > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?! > > > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the > long > > > > list > > > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > > > > Yap, > > > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance. > > > > > > > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from > > > > ancient > > > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha > > > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka > hora, > > > > Surya > > > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available > > > > quotes to > > > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do > not > > > > provide > > > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept > or > > > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So > > let us > > > > go > > > > > > by the datable and available texts. > > > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known > as > > > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas > > > > settled > > > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure. > > > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well > proved > > > > by > > > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a > > Jain, and > > > > also > > > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > > > father's > > > > > > name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a name > that > > > > ends > > > > > > in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner > > who come > > > > and > > > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and > > > > Mihira > > > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins. > > > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali > > > > from > > > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, > > Narapati the > > > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. > > > > Kalyana > > > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - > > evidently a > > > > not > > > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - > > > > evidently > > > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as > evident > > > > from > > > > > > the quote I provided above. > > > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from > > > > > Orissa. > > > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king > > and a > > > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin. > > > > > > > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be - > > > > > > > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, > > > > certainly > > > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was > never > > > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins! > > > > > > > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, > certainly > > > > > it was > > > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never > supported > > > > by > > > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva > > > > Parisishta, > > > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate > proofs > > > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it > > is well > > > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic > Brahmins; > > > > no > > > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!] > > > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers > for > > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to > act > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that > there is > > > > scope > > > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya > > > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= ===The > > available > > > > text > > > > > > on > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters > and > > > > 160 > > > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning " gem > > in the > > > > > > head'. > > > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara > > (lord > > > > > > Siva) > > > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala > Mantra > > > > > > (Medicine) > > > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge > > streams the > > > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala > > Mantra is > > > > the > > > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related > > to the > > > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, > > > > attracting > > > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave > > their > > > > > > native > > > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability > etc. > > > > Yes, > > > > > > it > > > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands > of > > > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along > > with gem > > > > > > like > > > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the > > > > branch > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of > > knowing > > > > > > about > > > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these two > (Kala > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in > the > > > > > > available > > > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use > > > > medicine > > > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma > > > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) > > etc. > > > > But > > > > > > we > > > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra > > (Astrology) > > > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of > > > > medicine > > > > > > in > > > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal > > > > plants > > > > > > are > > > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served > some > > > > secret > > > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric > culture. > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have > been > > > > the > > > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even > > though in > > > > the > > > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa > etc] > > > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and > > > > KalaTantra, > > > > > > we > > > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly > > with > > > > > > Kala > > > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with > Kala > > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime. > > > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva > > > > > > - " Approaching > > > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher > of > > > > all > > > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, > with > > > > > > folded > > > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the > devotees > > > > > > please > > > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the same > > > > style > > > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well > > from > > > > lord > > > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra > > (Astrology) > > > > as > > > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because > > > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, > can be > > > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this > > > > conclusion. > > > > > > As > > > > > > > mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is another > > name for > > > > > > this > > > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the head " > > by the > > > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > > > " Like > > > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a > cobra, > > > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem) " > > > > > > > Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to KalaTantra > - > > > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because > ofthis > > > > even > > > > > > > the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicate > > s that > > > > Kala > > > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. > But > > > > that > > > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore. > > > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument. > > Dattatreyagives > > > > a > > > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra > atthe > > > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are > > mentioned,but > > > > only > > > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in > theprinted > > > > text. > > > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 chapters)seems > > to be > > > > > > missing. > > > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya > Mahatantra > > > > is an > > > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question > > > > > > > rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to > learn > > > > from > > > > > > lord > > > > > > > Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that > > could > > > > be > > > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, > he > > > > might > > > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be > > made > > > > use > > > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva- > > > > > > " In > > > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships > are > > > > present. > > > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, > and in > > > > many > > > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala > Tantra > > > > that > > > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra > etc) > > > > 'in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine > > > > > > (Kala > > > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is > > > > Shadkarma > > > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This > > knowledge > > > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya > > > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and > > > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'. > > > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word > > Puranahere > > > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda > > > > hereindicates > > > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called > Brahmana,Aaranyaka, > > > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor > > > > Tantric > > > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So > thestatement > > > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra > > > > (Agama) > > > > > > and > > > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is > Vishnava > > > > > > Tantra. > > > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request > of > > > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and > > teach him > > > > the > > > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is > beneficial > > > > for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method. > > > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in > acorrupted > > > > state at > > > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it > was > > > > very > > > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the > > pile. > > > > The > > > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and > > > > Puranas > > > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from > > Tantrics and > > > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the > > > > pain of > > > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge > is > > > > > > becoming > > > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the > > > > heritage of > > > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This great > > > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who > > devotes > > > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for > davas, > > > > first > > > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true > > > > devotee of > > > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons > > who does > > > > not > > > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. > One > > > > should > > > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong > > willed and > > > > is > > > > > > a > > > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, > > > > " Astrology is > > > > > > > originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for > > special > > > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) > this > > > > truth > > > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read > > horoscope, > > > > or > > > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara > (Siva). > > > > This > > > > > > is > > > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in > the > > > > form > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the > ultimate > > > > Guru > > > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric > tradition. > > > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we > considerthe > > > > concept > > > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of > > > > > > astrology, > > > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma > > > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in > concept > > > > about > > > > > > the > > > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are > all > > > > > > different > > > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated > and > > > > existed > > > > > > in > > > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as > > Rasi > > > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed > > in a > > > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic > concepts > > > > such > > > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some > > > > > > othercivilization > > > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as > > > > theSindhu-Saraswati > > > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could > > prove > > > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not. > > > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the > astrologicalcontent in > > > > the > > > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go > back > > > > to > > > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines > > could be > > > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells > > > > Dattatreya - > > > > > > > " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial > forthe > > > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on > > > > medicine)which > > > > > > is > > > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, > > puttingaside > > > > the > > > > > > > knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the benefit > > > > with > > > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, > > Vreta, > > > > Day, > > > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an > auspicious > > > > muhoorta > > > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits > > well for > > > > the > > > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of > it > > > > the > > > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their > effect > > > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use > > these > > > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice > > > > lord > > > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since > those > > > > slokas > > > > > > are > > > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If > > anyone > > > > is > > > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya > Mahatantra > > > > to > > > > > > know > > > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the > > > > available > > > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). > The > > > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. > Siva > > > > said: > > > > > > > " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of > > > > humanbeings I > > > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " > Dwadesa > > > > dala > > > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa > sankhayani > > > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi > likhyate > > > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya > > vedhe > > > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve > cha > > > > chandre > > > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase > > vicharayete > > > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, > > we can > > > > > > have > > > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the > > numbers of > > > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In > > each of > > > > the > > > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current > > > > planetary > > > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc > in > > > > the > > > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects > > (Drishti) > > > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. > If > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, > > > > forJupiter > > > > > > - > > > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, > for > > > > Venus > > > > > > - > > > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done > every > > > > month " > > > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha > > > > ismentioned > > > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and > RasiVedha > > > > is > > > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for > KalaMrityu > > > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka > > > > was > > > > > > a > > > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will > > explain.(1) > > > > > > > Mention of months starting from > > > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > Why it > > > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite > > down the > > > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in > each > > > > > > square > > > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > > > Chaitra > > > > > > = > > > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ? > > > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should > > > > > > becalculated, > > > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint > > 180 deg > > > > > > away > > > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe > like?(2) > > > > Mrityu > > > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn > > > > mentioned > > > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma > riksha > > > > janma > > > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning Saturn > would > > > > have > > > > > > been > > > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning > > > > Saturn > > > > > > and > > > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ? > > > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should > beconsidered, > > > > then > > > > > > what > > > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) Riksha > - > > > > Nakshatra > > > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word > > > > Riksha > > > > > > has > > > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma > Riksha > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna > > sign, Moon > > > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha > > > > > > represents > > > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider > both > > > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? > > How to > > > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary > context?(4) > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- --------- > > ------- > > > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it > issaid > > > > that > > > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory > tothe > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many > typesof > > > > Vedha is > > > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha > andGraha > > > > Vedha > > > > > > in > > > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved > while > > > > > > predicting > > > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or > > > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha > > > > system > > > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase > mase > > > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit > > > > should be > > > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he > > > > avoided > > > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and > > > > Ketu?(6) > > > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- --------- > - > > > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the > personwho > > > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here > > weencounter > > > > a > > > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould > we > > > > > > observe > > > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated > after > > > > > > Sripati > > > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed > the > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya > > Tantra? > > > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to > > findanswers > > > > to > > > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of > > theastrology > > > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must. > > > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we > canclassify > > > > them > > > > > > into > > > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati > period > > > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas > and > > > > allied > > > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned Epics > > (Epic > > > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic > > > > Astrology)(v) > > > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - > Itis > > > > the > > > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a > > > > wholesecret > > > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology > of > > > > Arsha > > > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological > texts. > > > > This > > > > > > is > > > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with > Skanda > > > > Hora, > > > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The > acharyas > > > > in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, > Kousika, > > > > Sounaka > > > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. > (Arsha > > > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of > > > > thought](vii) > > > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in > variousancient > > > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in > > > > Indianastrology > > > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas > in > > > > this > > > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of > > course > > > > > > there > > > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and > > Parasara. But > > > > > > books > > > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am > not > > > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a > single > > > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of > > any of > > > > the > > > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available > for > > > > > > research! > > > > > > > They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward and > > reveal > > > > the > > > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient knowledge > on > > > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half > forgotten, > > > > > > unexplored > > > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us, > > > > > > > " TamasomaJyotirgama ya... " . Yes, there is a large amount of > work > > > > > > pending, > > > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge > is > > > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower > > their > > > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are > truly > > > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin > our > > > > search > > > > > > for > > > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is > > > > child's > > > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be > explored! > > > > Let > > > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the > > all, > > > > > > forthe > > > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Bhadraiah > > Mallampalli " > > > > > > > vaidix@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of > interest. > > > > That > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give > > > > *everything* > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is > the > > > > > > > > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or > > > > mathematicians. A > > > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed > by > > > > the > > > > > > > > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles > and > > > > can be > > > > > > > > called " veda " in the modern sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific > > documents are > > > > not > > > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted > > results > > > > (we > > > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To > > > > discard > > > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the > > unpublished > > > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) > is > > > > stupid. > > > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of > > relativity from > > > > > > > > Newton's works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't > > > > understand > > > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the > > total > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed > > (well, > > > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each > > veda > > > > are > > > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda > > > > > > > > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers > for > > > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out > of > > > > > > > > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and > > > > > > inconceivable > > > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some > universal > > > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted > > > > completely > > > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim > of > > > > > > > > astrology as a veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Dear Vinayji, Namaste, " Peetva " does not necessarily refer to wine. It is the exhileration that a bhakta gets through devotion. For different categories of Tantric devotees there are different ways. For the sattvic type the substitutes like sugarcane juice or honey are recommended. For some only " Alipan " or a drop on the tongue is recommended. For the people who are really used to taking wine the quantity of wine should not be more than 2 Tolas ie. not more than one ounce, during the Tantric rituals. I do not remember the relevant sloka and has no means to look at the refernce books in my home as I am presently away from India but I hope some scholars in this forum may remember the relevant verse. There has been effort in the past by the Vedic scholars with limited awareness to vilify Tantra.. Regards, Sunil K. Bhattacharjya --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 wrote: vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 Re:Tantric Astrology Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:53 AM Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself : " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim. Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in God. Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine. There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri Tantra was practised by demon-worsh- ppers. What Meghnada was doing with Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing some religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy. There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc in Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is Asurakota. Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the rules of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta texts used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is slayed! Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during most of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra stotras for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-) , ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed the real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates). I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad tantric mantras. Even the " peetvaa.. " shloka is positively translated by a vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in astrology. -VJ ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > Dear Vinayji, > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word " Kaula " itself comes from the word " Kula " , which means family. Others can practice tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason. These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in the past and that created a bad image for Tantra. > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology > ancient_indian_ astrology > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his generous response. > > For Shakadvipis, see > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source of this legend. > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate relates to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras. > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two schools have been created by modern authors. > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for Indian definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning of Tropical. I will elaborate it further. > > -VJ > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > Thanks for the informative post. > > ==> > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was a > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ; > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with eulogies > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest him > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > <== > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and the > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book Narapati > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him. > > ==> > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > <== > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative argument > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - " Seriously Tantra > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology? " . So I > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > ==> > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > > <== > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give more > > light about the line of argument: > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology Chandra > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology Chandra% 20\ > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf> > > > > ==> > > > Varah > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him even > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > <== > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this > > information is totally new to me. What about the word " Kapitthala " - is > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the name > > " Shakaldvipi " (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ? > > ==> > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > <== > > OK - Possible. > > ==> > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of Kashmiri > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > <== > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric idol > > worship, temple worship etc. > > ==> > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E > > <== > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak > > otherwise. > > ==> > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset, > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and other > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology even > > > in the nirayana school. > > <== > > Agree. > > ==> > > > Completely tropical astrology was never > > > practised in India by anyone. > > <== > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better to > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory. > > ==> > > > If nirayana system is completely > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West. > > <== > > Agree. > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from that > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are > > thirsty. > > > > Love and Hugs, > > Sreenadh > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " vinayjhaa16 " > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post. > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was a > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ; > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with eulogies > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest him > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. Varah > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him even > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of Kashmiri > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset, > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and other > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology even > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands : > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West. > > > > > > -VJ > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ ========= > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > ==> > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > <== > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th > > > > century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati Jayacharya " . > > > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century > > AD) > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after referring > > to > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly > > the 7 > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi Yamala, > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric texts > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, Rakshokhnam, > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala etc] > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati > > Jayacharya > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?! > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the long > > list > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > Yap, > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance. > > > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from > > ancient > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora, > > Surya > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available > > quotes to > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not > > provide > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So let us > > go > > > > by the datable and available texts. > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known as > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas > > settled > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure. > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well proved > > by > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a Jain, and > > also > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > father's > > > > name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a name that > > ends > > > > in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per > > Sanskrit > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner who come > > and > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and > > Mihira > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins. > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali > > from > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, Narapati the > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. > > Kalyana > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - evidently a > > not > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - > > evidently > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident > > from > > > > the quote I provided above. > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from > > > Orissa. > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king and a > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin. > > > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be - > > > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, > > certainly > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins! > > > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly > > > it was > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported > > by > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva > > Parisishta, > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it is well > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins; > > no > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!] > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > ==> > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > <== > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to act > > it. > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is > > scope > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= ===The available > > text > > > > on > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and > > 160 > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning " gem in the > > > > head'. > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara (lord > > > > Siva) > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra > > > > (Medicine) > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge streams the > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala Mantra is > > the > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related to the > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, > > attracting > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave their > > > > native > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc. > > Yes, > > > > it > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along with gem > > > > like > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the > > branch > > > > of > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of knowing > > > > about > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala > > Tantra > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the > > > > available > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use > > medicine > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) etc. > > But > > > > we > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra (Astrology) > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of > > medicine > > > > in > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal > > plants > > > > are > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some > > secret > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture. > > Tantra > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been > > the > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even though in > > the > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc] > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and > > KalaTantra, > > > > we > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly with > > > > Kala > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala > > > > Tantra > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime. > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva > > > > - " Approaching > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of > > all > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with > > > > folded > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees > > > > please > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the same > > style > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well from > > lord > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra (Astrology) > > as > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this > > conclusion. > > > > As > > > > > mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is another name for > > > > this > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the head " by the > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > " Like > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra, > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem) " > > > > > Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to KalaTantra - > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis > > even > > > > > the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicate s that > > Kala > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But > > that > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore. > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument. Dattatreyagives > > a > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are mentioned,but > > only > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted > > text. > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 chapters)seems to be > > > > missing. > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra > > is an > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question > > > > > rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn > > from > > > > lord > > > > > Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that could > > be > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he > > might > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be made > > use > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva- > > > > " In > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are > > present. > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in > > many > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra > > that > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc) > > 'in > > > > the > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what > > Dattatreya > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine > > > > (Kala > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is > > Shadkarma > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This knowledge > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'. > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word Puranahere > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda > > hereindicates > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka, > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor > > Tantric > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra > > (Agama) > > > > and > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava > > > > Tantra. > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and teach him > > the > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial > > for > > > > the > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method. > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted > > state at > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was > > very > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the pile. > > The > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and > > Puranas > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from Tantrics and > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the > > pain of > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is > > > > becoming > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the > > heritage of > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This great > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who devotes > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas, > > first > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret > > knowledge > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true > > devotee of > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons who does > > not > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One > > should > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong willed and > > is > > > > a > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, > > " Astrology is > > > > > originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for special > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this > > truth > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read horoscope, > > or > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva). > > This > > > > is > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the > > form > > > > of > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate > > Guru > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition. > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe > > concept > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of > > > > astrology, > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in concept > > about > > > > the > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all > > > > different > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and > > existed > > > > in > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as Rasi > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed in a > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts > > such > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some > > > > othercivilization > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as > > theSindhu-Saraswati > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could prove > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not. > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in > > the > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back > > to > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines could be > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells > > Dattatreya - > > > > > " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on > > medicine)which > > > > is > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, puttingaside > > the > > > > > knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the benefit > > with > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, Vreta, > > Day, > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious > > muhoorta > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits well for > > the > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it > > the > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use these > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice > > lord > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since those > > slokas > > > > are > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If anyone > > is > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra > > to > > > > know > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the > > available > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva > > said: > > > > > " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of > > humanbeings I > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " Dwadesa > > dala > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya vedhe > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha > > chandre > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase vicharayete > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, we can > > > > have > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the numbers of > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In each of > > the > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current > > planetary > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in > > the > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects (Drishti) > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If > > Vedha > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, > > forJupiter > > > > - > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for > > Venus > > > > - > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every > > month " > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha > > ismentioned > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha > > is > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka > > was > > > > a > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will explain.(1) > > > > > Mention of months starting from > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > Why it > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite down the > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each > > > > square > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > Chaitra > > > > = > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ? > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should > > > > becalculated, > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint 180 deg > > > > away > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2) > > Mrityu > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn > > mentioned > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma riksha > > janma > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning Saturn would > > have > > > > been > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning > > Saturn > > > > and > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ? > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered, > > then > > > > what > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) Riksha - > > Nakshatra > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word > > Riksha > > > > has > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna sign, Moon > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha > > > > represents > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? How to > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4) > > Vedha > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- --------- ------- > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid > > that > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe > > Vedha > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof > > Vedha is > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha > > Vedha > > > > in > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while > > > > predicting > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha > > system > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit > > should be > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he > > avoided > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and > > Ketu?(6) > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here weencounter > > a > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we > > > > observe > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after > > > > Sripati > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the > > > > concept > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya Tantra? > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to findanswers > > to > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of theastrology > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must. > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify > > them > > > > into > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and > > allied > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned Epics (Epic > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic > > Astrology)(v) > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis > > the > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a > > wholesecret > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology of > > Arsha > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts. > > This > > > > is > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda > > Hora, > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas > > in > > > > this > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika, > > Sounaka > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of > > thought](vii) > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in > > Indianastrology > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in > > this > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of course > > > > there > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and Parasara. But > > > > books > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of any of > > the > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for > > > > research! > > > > > They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward and reveal > > the > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient knowledge on > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten, > > > > unexplored > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us, > > > > > " TamasomaJyotirgama ya... " . Yes, there is a large amount of work > > > > pending, > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower their > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our > > search > > > > for > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is > > child's > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored! > > Let > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the all, > > > > forthe > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love, Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Bhadraiah Mallampalli " > > > > > vaidix@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar, > > > > > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest. > > That > > > > is > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give > > *everything* > > > > its > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the > > > > > > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or > > mathematicians. A > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by > > the > > > > > > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles and > > can be > > > > > > called " veda " in the modern sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific documents are > > not > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted results > > (we > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To > > discard > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the unpublished > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is > > stupid. > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of relativity from > > > > > > Newton's works. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't > > understand > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the total > > > > Vedic > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed (well, > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each veda > > are > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda > > > > > > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of > > > > > > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and > > > > inconceivable > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted > > completely > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of > > > > > > astrology as a veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 dear vinayji the same god dwells in all humans and while discussing or debating we shall show wisdom and maturity to skip and move ahead while agreeing to disagree. with your initial few mails, members got an impression of you having spent enough years in studying and researching the subject and all have given a pat on your back to encourage you to share more of your knowledge so that members can add value to the subject they have learnt or are learning. it is like a group of scholars travelling in a journey together and at one halt, one prefers to eat only fruits, other eat roadside cooked food and water from a borewell, another buys only packaged food and drinks only mineral water etc. no one forces other to follow his food preference and each join the journey together again after the break. similarly views and opinions naturally differ and we shall get on and move on, for subject is supreme. for a person marching on the path of karma (karma marga), the path of knowledge (jnana marga) is inferior because it is only preaching and imparting knowledge without working. for a person following the path of knowledge, the path of devotion (bhakti marga) is inferior as the native took to it only because he has no will to work nor any brain to use, so being illiterate and lazy he can do nothing else but to pray to god for mercy. anyway, while discussing the subject we come to such points where we agree to disagree and move on, so that more light is thrown on the subject of interest. with best wishes and blessings pandit arjun , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > I had said : " Even the peetvaa.. shloka is positively translated by a > vaishnava. " There are all types of tantrics, good and bad. I am > pointing fingers at the bad guys. If you feel offended, I apologize > again. > But I am not going to change my views, nor will you. It is only a Word > Of God that has the power to change human heart. > Sincerely, > -VJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 " > if adi sankara has used a dead corpse to do parakaya pravesa it is not > satvik right handed tantra for a pontiff. people shall shed > inhibitions about branding tantra as a negative force. " Regarding Adi Sankara doing parakaya pravesa, we should remember he was a sanyasi and is therefore technically outside the social fold. On top of it he was a mukta. Therefore the notion of " satvic " does not apply. Sanyasi does not have restrictions on matters of sadhana - intoxication or anything. The question about certain practices in Tantra is usually seen in the context of " satvic-tamasic " or " good-bad " , while it is not really so. The point is more about social viability of a practice than anything else. For this reason, whatever practices are not socially viable, are prescribed in seclusion. This includes panca makaras. And some of the vamacara practices are not even to be done in seclusion but are allowed only for a person outside the social fold. Therefore we should not sound as if it can be pursued by the common man - it cannot be. It requires a separate life style, training, temperament. Common man's worship should be directed with the goals of ruju vartana and daiva cintana, and not siddhis. While saying " tantra is meant for grhasthas " , and when we talk of great siddhas and tantrics, and we often forget that many of them were outside the fold in one sense or the other. The other part of confusion about Tantra is because of not separating kshudra from vamacara. Kshudra is different from vamacara and one should separate them. While vamacara is a moksha marga when pursued properly, kshudra is purely about siddhis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I again assert that good people use Tantra in a good way and bad people use it in a bad way. In Tantra, 'wine' means spiritual ecstasy for some, while others use it literally. I know both sorts of people, personally. I am not against all Tantra, but against its bad use. Even Veda can be used in a foul manner by foul people. It does not imply Vedas are bad. I know many sanyasis personally who use bhaang and gaanjaa, and do not read any scriptures. Yet all of them come me whenever they visit my town. I advise them against intoxicants, and some of them value my words. Pure Consciousness cannot be attained through intoxication. But I know why these sanyasis use bhaang and gaanjaa , it subdues libido. But it is like castration for becoming a brahmachaari. Instead of intoxicants, one should take resorts to Tapasya like pranayama. I performed 86 pranayama per sitting at intervals of 6 hours for years. I know Brahmaananada is quite opposite from intoxication. But it cannot be preached, it can only be practiced. -VJ , " panditarjun2004 " <panditarjun2004 wrote: > > dear vinayji > > the same god dwells in all humans and while discussing or debating we > shall show wisdom and maturity to skip and move ahead while agreeing > to disagree. > > with your initial few mails, members got an impression of you having > spent enough years in studying and researching the subject and all > have given a pat on your back to encourage you to share more of your > knowledge so that members can add value to the subject they have > learnt or are learning. > > it is like a group of scholars travelling in a journey together and > at one halt, one prefers to eat only fruits, other eat roadside > cooked food and water from a borewell, another buys only packaged > food and drinks only mineral water etc. no one forces other to > follow his food preference and each join the journey together again > after the break. > > similarly views and opinions naturally differ and we shall get on and > move on, for subject is supreme. > > for a person marching on the path of karma (karma marga), the path of > knowledge (jnana marga) is inferior because it is only preaching and > imparting knowledge without working. for a person following the path > of knowledge, the path of devotion (bhakti marga) is inferior as the > native took to it only because he has no will to work nor any brain > to use, so being illiterate and lazy he can do nothing else but to > pray to god for mercy. > > anyway, while discussing the subject we come to such points where we > agree to disagree and move on, so that more light is thrown on the > subject of interest. > > with best wishes and blessings > pandit arjun > > , " vinayjhaa16 " > <vinayjhaa16@> wrote: > > > > I had said : " Even the peetvaa.. shloka is positively translated by > a > > vaishnava. " There are all types of tantrics, good and bad. I am > > pointing fingers at the bad guys. If you feel offended, I apologize > > again. > > But I am not going to change my views, nor will you. It is only a > Word > > Of God that has the power to change human heart. > > Sincerely, > > -VJ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 "I again assert that good people use Tantra in a good way and bad people use it in a bad way. In Tantra, 'wine' means spiritual ecstasy for some, while others use it literally. "The point is, the "literlal" sense of using wine itself can be "good" in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 Sent: Wednesday, January 7, 2009 12:45:34 PM Re:Tantric Astrology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Sunil jee said : " There has been effort in the past by the Vedic scholars with limited awareness to vilify Tantra.. " I again assert that good people use Tantra in a good way and bad people use it in a bad way. In Tantra, 'wine' means spiritual ecstasy for some, while others use it literally. I know both sorts of people, personally. I am not against all Tantra, but against its bad use. Even Veda can be used in a foul manner by foul people. It does not imply Vedas are bad. I know many sanyasis personally who use bhaang and gaanjaa, and do not read any scriptures. Yet all of them, who know me, come to me whenever they visit my town. I advise them against intoxicants, and some of them value my words. Few days ago a naagaa sanyaasi broke his chilam at my request. Pure Consciousness cannot be attained through intoxication. But I know why these sanyasis use bhaang and gaanjaa. I never tested it, but I am told that gaanjaa subdues libido. But it is like castration for becoming a brahmachaari. Instead of intoxicants, one should take resorts to Tapasya like pranayama. I performed 86 pranayama per sitting at intervals of 6 hours for years. I know Brahmaananada is quite opposite from intoxication. But It is a personal experience, it cannot be preached, it can only be practiced. I know Sunil jee will not like my views. He used terms like " the Vedic scholars with limited awareness... " . Elsewhere too Sunil jee uses similar words : " Those who are not aware of the rule " Ankaanaam Vaamato Gati " interprets it to be 4 to3 to 2 to1... " . I am really not aware of " spiritual " attributes of wine. I was a student of linguistics, and I know the meaning of madiraa in many tantric texts. Many tantrics use madiraa figuratively, but many use it literally. Let me quote the following passage from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna : " He (Swami Ramakrishna Paramhamsa) later proceeded towards tantric sadhanas, which generally include a set of heterodox practices called vamachara (left-hand path), which utilize as a means of liberation, activities like eating of parched grain, fish and meat along with drinking of wine and sexual intercourse.[44] According to Ramakrishna and his biographers, Ramakrishna did not directly participate in the last two of those activities, all that he needed was a suggestion of them to produce the desired result.[44] " The above indicates that Swami Ramakrishna Paramhamsa, although being a vaishnava, had something to do with first three things of panch makara, which gave him throat problems later. It will be good if we keep this forum limited to discussions about astrology. I have access to some great texts of Tantra without which I could not have understood many great secrets of Indian astrology. We should discuss the pros and cons of Wine here only if it helps in understanding astrology in a better way. -VJ ============== ================ , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear Vinayji, > > Namaste, > > " Peetva " does not necessarily refer to wine. It is the exhileration that a bhakta gets through devotion. For different categories of Tantric devotees there are different ways. For the sattvic type the substitutes like sugarcane juice or honey are recommended. For some only " Alipan " or a drop on the tongue is recommended. For the people who are really used to taking wine the quantity of wine should not be more than 2 Tolas ie. not more than one ounce, during the Tantric rituals. I do not remember the relevant sloka and has no means to look at the refernce books in my home as I am presently away from India but I hope some scholars in this forum may remember the relevant verse. > > There has been effort in the past by the Vedic scholars with limited awareness to vilify Tantra.. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 > Re:Tantric Astrology > > Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:53 AM Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself : > > " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " > > Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim. > Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in God. > Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine. > > There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri Tantra > was practised by demon-worsh- ppers. What Meghnada was doing with > Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing some > religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a > devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy. > > There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc in > Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is Asurakota. > Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of > Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the rules > of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta texts > used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which > invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is slayed! > > Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during most > of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra stotras > for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-) , > ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed the > real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates). > > I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad tantric > mantras. Even the " peetvaa.. " shloka is positively translated by a > vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am > concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in astrology. > > -VJ > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory > Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad > name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why > the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should > practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word " Kaula " itself > comes from the word " Kula " , which means family. Others can practice > tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing > age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason. > These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the > fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in > the past and that created a bad image for Tantra. > > > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a > commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote > Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the > rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his > generous response. > > > > For Shakadvipis, see > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira > > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first > link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in > Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source > of this legend. > > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was > Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. > 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of > the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them > to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, > like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate relates > to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites > like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to > Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras. > > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana > in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two > schools have been created by modern authors. > > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for Indian > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning > of Tropical. I will elaborate it further. > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > ==> > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > was a > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ; > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > eulogies > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > suggest him > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > <== > > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and the > > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book Narapati > > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him. > > > ==> > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > <== > > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative argument > > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and > > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was > > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - " Seriously > Tantra > > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology? " . > So I > > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > ==> > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > > > <== > > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of > > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the > > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give > more > > > light about the line of argument: > > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > Chandra > > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf > > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > Chandra% 20\ > > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf> > > > > > > ==> > > > > Varah > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > even > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > <== > > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this > > > information is totally new to me. What about the word " Kapitthala " > - is > > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the name > > > " Shakaldvipi " (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ? > > > ==> > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > <== > > > OK - Possible. > > > ==> > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > Kashmiri > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > <== > > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to > > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric idol > > > worship, temple worship etc. > > > ==> > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E > > > <== > > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak > > > otherwise. > > > ==> > > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset, > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > other > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > even > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > <== > > > Agree. > > > ==> > > > > Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > practised in India by anyone. > > > <== > > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana > > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and > > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better to > > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory. > > > ==> > > > > If nirayana system is completely > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West. > > > <== > > > Agree. > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from that > > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are > > > thirsty. > > > > > > Love and Hugs, > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " vinayjhaa16 " > > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post. > > > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > was a > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ; > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > eulogies > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > suggest him > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. Varah > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > even > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > Kashmiri > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset, > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > other > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > even > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions > > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands : > > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ ========= > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > ==> > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > <== > > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th > > > > > century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati Jayacharya " . > > > > > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam > > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam > > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam > > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam > > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim > > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha > > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha > > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale > > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana > > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya > > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century > > > AD) > > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after > referring > > > to > > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly > > > the 7 > > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi > Yamala, > > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric > texts > > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, > Rakshokhnam, > > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala > etc] > > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati > > > Jayacharya > > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?! > > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the long > > > list > > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > > Yap, > > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance. > > > > > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from > > > ancient > > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha > > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora, > > > Surya > > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available > > > quotes to > > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not > > > provide > > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or > > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So > let us > > > go > > > > > by the datable and available texts. > > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known as > > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas > > > settled > > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure. > > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well proved > > > by > > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a > Jain, and > > > also > > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > > father's > > > > > name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a name that > > > ends > > > > > in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per > > > Sanskrit > > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner > who come > > > and > > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and > > > Mihira > > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins. > > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali > > > from > > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, > Narapati the > > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. > > > Kalyana > > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - > evidently a > > > not > > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - > > > evidently > > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident > > > from > > > > > the quote I provided above. > > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from > > > > Orissa. > > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king > and a > > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin. > > > > > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be - > > > > > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, > > > certainly > > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never > > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins! > > > > > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly > > > > it was > > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported > > > by > > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva > > > Parisishta, > > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs > > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it > is well > > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins; > > > no > > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!] > > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to act > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is > > > scope > > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya > > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= ===The > available > > > text > > > > > on > > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and > > > 160 > > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning " gem > in the > > > > > head'. > > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara > (lord > > > > > Siva) > > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra > > > > > (Medicine) > > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge > streams the > > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala > Mantra is > > > the > > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related > to the > > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, > > > attracting > > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave > their > > > > > native > > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc. > > > Yes, > > > > > it > > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of > > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along > with gem > > > > > like > > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the > > > branch > > > > > of > > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of > knowing > > > > > about > > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala > > > Tantra > > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the > > > > > available > > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use > > > medicine > > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma > > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) > etc. > > > But > > > > > we > > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra > (Astrology) > > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of > > > medicine > > > > > in > > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal > > > plants > > > > > are > > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some > > > secret > > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture. > > > Tantra > > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been > > > the > > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even > though in > > > the > > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc] > > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and > > > KalaTantra, > > > > > we > > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly > with > > > > > Kala > > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime. > > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva > > > > > - " Approaching > > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of > > > all > > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with > > > > > folded > > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees > > > > > please > > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the same > > > style > > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well > from > > > lord > > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra > (Astrology) > > > as > > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because > > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be > > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this > > > conclusion. > > > > > As > > > > > > mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is another > name for > > > > > this > > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the head " > by the > > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > > " Like > > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra, > > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem) " > > > > > > Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to KalaTantra - > > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis > > > even > > > > > > the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicate > s that > > > Kala > > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But > > > that > > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore. > > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument. > Dattatreyagives > > > a > > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe > > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are > mentioned,but > > > only > > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted > > > text. > > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 chapters)seems > to be > > > > > missing. > > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra > > > is an > > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question > > > > > > rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn > > > from > > > > > lord > > > > > > Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that > could > > > be > > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he > > > might > > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be > made > > > use > > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva- > > > > > " In > > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are > > > present. > > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in > > > many > > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra > > > that > > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc) > > > 'in > > > > > the > > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine > > > > > (Kala > > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is > > > Shadkarma > > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This > knowledge > > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya > > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and > > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'. > > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word > Puranahere > > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda > > > hereindicates > > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka, > > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor > > > Tantric > > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement > > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra > > > (Agama) > > > > > and > > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava > > > > > Tantra. > > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of > > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and > teach him > > > the > > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method. > > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted > > > state at > > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was > > > very > > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the > pile. > > > The > > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and > > > Puranas > > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from > Tantrics and > > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the > > > pain of > > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is > > > > > becoming > > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the > > > heritage of > > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This great > > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who > devotes > > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas, > > > first > > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret > > > knowledge > > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true > > > devotee of > > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons > who does > > > not > > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One > > > should > > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong > willed and > > > is > > > > > a > > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, > > > " Astrology is > > > > > > originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for > special > > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this > > > truth > > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read > horoscope, > > > or > > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva). > > > This > > > > > is > > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the > > > form > > > > > of > > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate > > > Guru > > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition. > > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe > > > concept > > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of > > > > > astrology, > > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma > > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in concept > > > about > > > > > the > > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all > > > > > different > > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and > > > existed > > > > > in > > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as > Rasi > > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed > in a > > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts > > > such > > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some > > > > > othercivilization > > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as > > > theSindhu-Saraswati > > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could > prove > > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not. > > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in > > > the > > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back > > > to > > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines > could be > > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells > > > Dattatreya - > > > > > > " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe > > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on > > > medicine)which > > > > > is > > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, > puttingaside > > > the > > > > > > knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the benefit > > > with > > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, > Vreta, > > > Day, > > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious > > > muhoorta > > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits > well for > > > the > > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it > > > the > > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect > > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use > these > > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice > > > lord > > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since those > > > slokas > > > > > are > > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If > anyone > > > is > > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra > > > to > > > > > know > > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the > > > available > > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The > > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva > > > said: > > > > > > " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of > > > humanbeings I > > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " Dwadesa > > > dala > > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani > > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate > > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya > vedhe > > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha > > > chandre > > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase > vicharayete > > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, > we can > > > > > have > > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the > numbers of > > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In > each of > > > the > > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current > > > planetary > > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in > > > the > > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects > (Drishti) > > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If > > > Vedha > > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, > > > forJupiter > > > > > - > > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for > > > Venus > > > > > - > > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every > > > month " > > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha > > > ismentioned > > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha > > > is > > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu > > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka > > > was > > > > > a > > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will > explain.(1) > > > > > > Mention of months starting from > > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > Why it > > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite > down the > > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each > > > > > square > > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > > Chaitra > > > > > = > > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ? > > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should > > > > > becalculated, > > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint > 180 deg > > > > > away > > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2) > > > Mrityu > > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn > > > mentioned > > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma riksha > > > janma > > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning Saturn would > > > have > > > > > been > > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning > > > Saturn > > > > > and > > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ? > > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered, > > > then > > > > > what > > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) Riksha - > > > Nakshatra > > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word > > > Riksha > > > > > has > > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha > > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna > sign, Moon > > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha > > > > > represents > > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both > > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? > How to > > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4) > > > Vedha > > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- --------- > ------- > > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid > > > that > > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe > > > Vedha > > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof > > > Vedha is > > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha > > > Vedha > > > > > in > > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while > > > > > predicting > > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or > > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha > > > system > > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase > > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit > > > should be > > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he > > > avoided > > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and > > > Ketu?(6) > > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho > > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here > weencounter > > > a > > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we > > > > > observe > > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after > > > > > Sripati > > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the > > > > > concept > > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya > Tantra? > > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to > findanswers > > > to > > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of > theastrology > > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must. > > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify > > > them > > > > > into > > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period > > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and > > > allied > > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned Epics > (Epic > > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic > > > Astrology)(v) > > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis > > > the > > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a > > > wholesecret > > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology of > > > Arsha > > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts. > > > This > > > > > is > > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda > > > Hora, > > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas > > > in > > > > > this > > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika, > > > Sounaka > > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha > > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of > > > thought](vii) > > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient > > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in > > > Indianastrology > > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in > > > this > > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of > course > > > > > there > > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and > Parasara. But > > > > > books > > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not > > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single > > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of > any of > > > the > > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for > > > > > research! > > > > > > They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward and > reveal > > > the > > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient knowledge on > > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten, > > > > > unexplored > > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us, > > > > > > " TamasomaJyotirgama ya... " . Yes, there is a large amount of work > > > > > pending, > > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is > > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower > their > > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly > > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our > > > search > > > > > for > > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is > > > child's > > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored! > > > Let > > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the > all, > > > > > forthe > > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love, > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Bhadraiah > Mallampalli " > > > > > > vaidix@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest. > > > That > > > > > is > > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give > > > *everything* > > > > > its > > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the > > > > > > > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or > > > mathematicians. A > > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by > > > the > > > > > > > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles and > > > can be > > > > > > > called " veda " in the modern sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific > documents are > > > not > > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted > results > > > (we > > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To > > > discard > > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the > unpublished > > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is > > > stupid. > > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of > relativity from > > > > > > > Newton's works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't > > > understand > > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the > total > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed > (well, > > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each > veda > > > are > > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda > > > > > > > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of > > > > > > > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and > > > > > inconceivable > > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal > > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted > > > completely > > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of > > > > > > > astrology as a veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 " The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself can be " good " in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. " Yes, using wine itself can be good in Tantra, but not in all types of Tantra. Bloody sacrifices were also good for some, but not for all. Some even preferred human sacrifices. -VJ , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote: > > " I again assert that good people use Tantra in a good way and bad > people use it in a bad way. In Tantra, 'wine' means spiritual ecstasy > for some, while others use it literally. " > > The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself can be " good " in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. > > > > > ________________________________ > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 > > Wednesday, January 7, 2009 12:45:34 PM > Re:Tantric Astrology > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, In my opinion, 'Peetva' does refer to wine and that boldness itself is the beauty of Tantra. Why mis-interpret and super imposs our inhibitions and psychological barriers on those original Tantrics? :)Love and regards,Sreenadh , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote:>> Dear Vinayji,> > Namaste,> > "Peetva" does not necessarily refer to wine. It is the exhileration that a bhakta gets through devotion. For different categories of Tantric devotees there are different ways. For the sattvic type the substitutes like sugarcane juice or honey are recommended. For some only "Alipan" or a drop on the tongue is recommended. For the people who are really used to taking wine the quantity of wine should not be more than 2 Tolas ie. not more than one ounce, during the Tantric rituals. I do not remember the relevant sloka and has no means to look at the refernce books in my home as I am presently away from India but I hope some scholars in this forum may remember the relevant verse.> > There has been effort in the past by the Vedic scholars with limited awareness to vilify Tantra..> > Regards,> > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16 wrote:> > vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16 Re:Tantric Astrology> > Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:53 AM> > > > > > > Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself :> > "Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale;> Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate !"> > Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim.> Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in God.> Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine.> > There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri Tantra> was practised by demon-worsh- ppers. What Meghnada was doing with> Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing some> religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a> devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy.> > There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc in> Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is Asurakota.> Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of> Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the rules> of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta texts> used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which> invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is slayed! > > Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during most> of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra stotras> for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-) ,> ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed the> real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates).> > I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad tantric> mantras. Even the "peetvaa.." shloka is positively translated by a> vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am> concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in astrology.> > -VJ> > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya> <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote:> >> > Dear Vinayji,> > > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory> Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad> name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why> the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should> practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word "Kaula" itself> comes from the word "Kula", which means family. Others can practice> tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing> age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason.> These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the> fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in> the past and that created a bad image for Tantra.> > > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a> commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote> Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the> rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara.> > > > Regards,> > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya> > > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote:> > > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...>> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology> > ancient_indian_ astrology> > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his> generous response.> > > > For Shakadvipis, see > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya> > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira> > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first> link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in> Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source> of this legend.> > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was> Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. > 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of> the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them> to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric> texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra,> like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate relates> to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites> like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to> Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras.> > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana> in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two> schools have been created by modern authors. > > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for Indian> definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning> of Tropical. I will elaborate it further.> > > > -VJ> > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> <sreesog@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Vinay ji,> > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > ==>> > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati> was a> > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> eulogies> > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> suggest him> > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > <==> > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and the> > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book Narapati> > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him.> > > ==>> > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > <==> > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative argument> > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and> > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was> > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - "Seriously> Tantra> > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology?".> So I> > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > ==>> > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read.> > > <==> > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of> > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the> > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give> more> > > light about the line of argument:> > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology> Chandra> > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf> > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology> Chandra% 20\> > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf>> > > > > > ==>> > > > Varah> > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him> even> > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > <==> > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this> > > information is totally new to me. What about the word "Kapitthala"> - is> > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the name> > > "Shakaldvipi" (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ?> > > ==>> > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > <==> > > OK - Possible.> > > ==>> > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> Kashmiri> > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > <==> > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to> > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric idol> > > worship, temple worship etc.> > > ==>> > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E> > > <==> > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak> > > otherwise.> > > ==>> > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and> other> > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology> even> > > > in the nirayana school.> > > <==> > > Agree.> > > ==>> > > > Completely tropical astrology was never> > > > practised in India by anyone.> > > <==> > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana> > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and> > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better to> > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory.> > > ==>> > > > If nirayana system is completely> > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.> > > <==> > > Agree.> > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from that> > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are> > > thirsty. > > > > > > Love and Hugs,> > > Sreenadh> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "vinayjhaa16"> > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > > >> > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post.> > > >> > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati> was a> > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> eulogies> > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it> suggest him> > > > to be a non-brahmin?> > > >> > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > > >> > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. Varah> > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him> even> > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > > >> > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > > >> > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> Kashmiri> > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > > >> > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and> other> > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology> even> > > > in the nirayana school.> > > >> > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions> > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands :> > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never> > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely> > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.> > > >> > > > -VJ> > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ =========> > > >> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, "Sreenadh"> > > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > > >> > > > > hinducivilization, "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > ==>> > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > <==> > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th> > > > > century authentic text on astrology named "Narapati Jayacharya".> > > > >> > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam> > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam> > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam> > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam> > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim> > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha> > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha> > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale> > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana> > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya> > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century> > > AD)> > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after> referring> > > to> > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly> > > the 7> > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi> Yamala,> > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric> texts> > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam,> Rakshokhnam,> > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala> etc]> > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati> > > Jayacharya> > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?!> > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the long> > > list> > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > > Yap,> > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.> > > > >> > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from> > > ancient> > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha> > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora,> > > Surya> > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available> > > quotes to> > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not> > > provide> > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or> > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So> let us> > > go> > > > > by the datable and available texts.> > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known as> > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas> > > settled> > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.> > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well proved> > > by> > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a> Jain, and> > > also> > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > > father's> > > > > name is "Aditya Dasa". The Vedic brahmins does not use a name that> > > ends> > > > > in the word "Dasa" (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per> > > Sanskrit> > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner> who come> > > and> > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and> > > Mihira> > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins.> > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali> > > from> > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir,> Narapati the> > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain.> > > Kalyana> > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests -> evidently a> > > not> > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower -> > > evidently> > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident> > > from> > > > > the quote I provided above.> > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from> > > > Orissa.> > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king> and a> > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin.> > > > >> > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -> > > > >> > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin,> > > certainly> > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never> > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins!> > > > >> > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly> > > > it was> > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported> > > by> > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva> > > Parisishta,> > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs> > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it> is well> > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins;> > > no> > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!]> > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > > Regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > hinducivilization, "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > > ==>> > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > > <==> > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to act> > > it.> > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is> > > scope> > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > Sreenadh> > > > > >> > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ========> > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya> > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= ===The> available> > > text> > > > > on> > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and> > > 160> > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas "Siromani", meaning "gem> in the> > > > > head'.> > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara> (lord> > > > > Siva)> > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra> > > > > (Medicine)> > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge> streams the> > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala> Mantra is> > > the> > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related> to the> > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others,> > > attracting> > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave> their> > > > > native> > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc.> > > Yes,> > > > > it> > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of> > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along> with gem> > > > > like> > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the> > > branch> > > > > of> > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of> knowing> > > > > about> > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala> > > Tantra> > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the> > > > > available> > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use> > > medicine> > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma> > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana)> etc.> > > But> > > > > we> > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra> (Astrology)> > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of> > > medicine> > > > > in> > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal> > > plants> > > > > are> > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some> > > secret> > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture.> > > Tantra> > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been> > > the> > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even> though in> > > the> > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc]> > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and> > > KalaTantra,> > > > > we> > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly> with> > > > > Kala> > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala> > > > > Tantra> > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.> > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva> > > > > -"Approaching> > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of> > > all> > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with> > > > > folded> > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees> > > > > please> > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra" In the same> > > style> > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well> from> > > lord> > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra> (Astrology)> > > as> > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because> > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be> > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this> > > conclusion.> > > > > As> > > > > > mentioned earlier, "Siromani" (gem in thehead) is another> name for> > > > > this> > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas "gem in the head"> by the> > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > > "Like> > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra,> > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem)"> > > > > > Yes, the praise "gem in the head" usually goes to KalaTantra -> > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis> > > even> > > > > > the other name "Siromani" of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicate> s that> > > Kala> > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But> > > that> > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.> > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument.> Dattatreyagives> > > a> > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe> > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are> mentioned,but> > > only> > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted> > > text.> > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 chapters)seems> to be> > > > > missing.> > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra> > > is an> > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question> > > > > > rises, "Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn> > > from> > > > > lord> > > > > > Siva?" No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that> could> > > be> > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he> > > might> > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be> made> > > use> > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva-> > > > > "In> > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are> > > present.> > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in> > > many> > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra> > > that> > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc)> > > 'in> > > > > the> > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions" This is what> > > Dattatreya> > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine> > > > > (Kala> > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is> > > Shadkarma> > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This> knowledge> > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya> > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and> > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'.> > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word> Puranahere> > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda> > > hereindicates> > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka,> > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor> > > Tantric> > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement> > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra> > > (Agama)> > > > > and> > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava> > > > > Tantra.> > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of> > > > > Dattatreya> > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and> teach him> > > the> > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial> > > for> > > > > the> > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.> > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted> > > state at> > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was> > > very> > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the> pile.> > > The> > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and> > > Puranas> > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from> Tantrics and> > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the> > > pain of> > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is> > > > > becoming> > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the> > > heritage of> > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - "This great> > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who> devotes> > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas,> > > first> > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret> > > knowledge> > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true> > > devotee of> > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons> who does> > > not> > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One> > > should> > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong> willed and> > > is> > > > > a> > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone" The statement,> > > "Astrology is> > > > > > originated from lord Siva"(Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for> special> > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this> > > truth> > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read> horoscope,> > > or> > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva).> > > This> > > > > is> > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the> > > form> > > > > of> > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate> > > Guru> > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition.> > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe> > > concept> > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of> > > > > astrology,> > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma> > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva> > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda> > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma> > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in concept> > > about> > > > > the> > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all> > > > > different> > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and> > > existed> > > > > in> > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as> Rasi> > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed> in a> > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts> > > such> > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some> > > > > othercivilization> > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as> > > theSindhu-Saraswati> > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could> prove> > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not.> > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in> > > the> > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back> > > to> > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines> could be> > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells> > > Dattatreya -> > > > > > "Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe> > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on> > > medicine)which> > > > > is> > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you,> puttingaside> > > the> > > > > > knowledge of astrology"Because - "(For the benefit> > > with> > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra,> Vreta,> > > Day,> > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious> > > muhoorta> > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits> well for> > > the> > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it> > > the> > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect> > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use> these> > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice> > > lord> > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since those> > > slokas> > > > > are> > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If> anyone> > > is> > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra> > > to> > > > > know> > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the> > > available> > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The> > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva> > > said:> > > > > > "Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of> > > humanbeings I> > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen" Dwadesa> > > dala> > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani> > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate> > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya> vedhe> > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha> > > chandre> > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase> vicharayete> > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra)" From the Rasichakra with 12 petals,> we can> > > > > have> > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the> numbers of> > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In> each of> > > the> > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current> > > planetary> > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in> > > the> > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects> (Drishti)> > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If> > > Vedha> > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness,> > > forJupiter> > > > > -> > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for> > > Venus> > > > > -> > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every> > > month"> > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha> > > ismentioned> > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha> > > is> > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu> > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka> > > was> > > > > a> > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will> explain.(1)> > > > > > Mention of months starting from> > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > Why it> > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite> down the> > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each> > > > > square> > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > > Chaitra> > > > > => > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ?> > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should> > > > > becalculated,> > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint> 180 deg> > > > > away> > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2)> > > Mrityu> > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn> > > mentioned> > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings "Janma riksha> > > janma> > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare" , directlymentioning Saturn would> > > have> > > > > been> > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning> > > Saturn> > > > > and> > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ?> > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered,> > > then> > > > > what> > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) Riksha -> > > Nakshatra> > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word> > > Riksha> > > > > has> > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha> > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna> sign, Moon> > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha> > > > > represents> > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both> > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination?> How to> > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4)> > > Vedha> > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- ---------> -------> > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid> > > that> > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe> > > Vedha> > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof> > > Vedha is> > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha> > > Vedha> > > > > in> > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while> > > > > predicting> > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or> > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha> > > system> > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase> > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit> > > should be> > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he> > > avoided> > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and> > > Ketu?(6)> > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- --------- -> > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho> > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here> weencounter> > > a> > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we> > > > > observe> > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after> > > > > Sripati> > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the> > > > > concept> > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya> Tantra?> > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to> findanswers> > > to> > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of> theastrology> > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must.> > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify> > > them> > > > > into> > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period> > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and> > > allied> > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned Epics> (Epic> > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic> > > Astrology)(v)> > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis> > > the> > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a> > > wholesecret> > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology of> > > Arsha> > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts.> > > This> > > > > is> > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda> > > Hora,> > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas> > > in> > > > > this> > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika,> > > Sounaka> > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha> > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of> > > thought](vii)> > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient> > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in> > > Indianastrology> > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in> > > this> > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of> course> > > > > there> > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and> Parasara. But> > > > > books> > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not> > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single> > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of> any of> > > the> > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for> > > > > research!> > > > > > They are requesting tous, "please, please, come forward and> reveal> > > the> > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you..." All this ancient knowledge on> > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten,> > > > > unexplored> > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,> > > > > > "TamasomaJyotirgama ya...". Yes, there is a large amount of work> > > > > pending,> > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is> > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower> their> > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly> > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our> > > search> > > > > for> > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is> > > child's> > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored!> > > Let> > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the> all,> > > > > forthe> > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love,> Sreenadh> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ========> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > hinducivilization, "Bhadraiah> Mallampalli"> > > > > > vaidix@ wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest.> > > That> > > > > is> > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give> > > *everything*> > > > > its> > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > "Veda" is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the> > > > > > > equivalent of "papers" published by scientists or> > > mathematicians. A> > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by> > > the> > > > > > > author. The "journal" is the compilation of such articles and> > > can be> > > > > > > called "veda" in the modern sense.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific> documents are> > > not> > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted> results> > > (we> > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To> > > discard> > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the> unpublished> > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is> > > stupid.> > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of> relativity from> > > > > > > Newton's works.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't> > > understand> > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the> total> > > > > Vedic> > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed> (well,> > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each> veda> > > are> > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda> > > > > > > as "tantra" because we can hardly understand anything in it.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of> > > > > > > it. "Vedic" astrology is beyond visibility for now, and> > > > > inconceivable> > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal> > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted> > > completely> > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of> > > > > > > astrology as a veda.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Bhadraiah> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Dear Arjun ji, Thanks for a good mail reflecting a very balanced and matured view. Love and regards,Sreenadh , "panditarjun2004" <panditarjun2004 wrote:>> dear vinayji> > the same god dwells in all humans and while discussing or debating we> shall show wisdom and maturity to skip and move ahead while agreeing> to disagree.> > with your initial few mails, members got an impression of you having> spent enough years in studying and researching the subject and all> have given a pat on your back to encourage you to share more of your> knowledge so that members can add value to the subject they have> learnt or are learning.> > it is like a group of scholars travelling in a journey together and> at one halt, one prefers to eat only fruits, other eat roadside> cooked food and water from a borewell, another buys only packaged> food and drinks only mineral water etc. no one forces other to> follow his food preference and each join the journey together again> after the break.> > similarly views and opinions naturally differ and we shall get on and> move on, for subject is supreme.> > for a person marching on the path of karma (karma marga), the path of> knowledge (jnana marga) is inferior because it is only preaching and> imparting knowledge without working. for a person following the path> of knowledge, the path of devotion (bhakti marga) is inferior as the> native took to it only because he has no will to work nor any brain> to use, so being illiterate and lazy he can do nothing else but to> pray to god for mercy.> > anyway, while discussing the subject we come to such points where we> agree to disagree and move on, so that more light is thrown on the> subject of interest.> > with best wishes and blessings> pandit arjun> > , "vinayjhaa16"> vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> >> > I had said : "Even the peetvaa.. shloka is positively translated by> a> > vaishnava." There are all types of tantrics, good and bad. I am> > pointing fingers at the bad guys. If you feel offended, I apologize> > again.> > But I am not going to change my views, nor will you. It is only a> Word> > Of God that has the power to change human heart.> > Sincerely,> > -VJ> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Dear ShankaraBharadwaj ji, ==>The point is, the "literlal" sense of using wine itself can be "good" in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. <== I agree to it - you are absolutely right. Love and regards,Sreenadh , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote:>> "I again assert that good people use Tantra in a good way and bad> people use it in a bad way. In Tantra, 'wine' means spiritual ecstasy> for some, while others use it literally. "> > The point is, the "literlal" sense of using wine itself can be "good" in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. > > > > > ________________________________> vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16 > Wednesday, January 7, 2009 12:45:34 PM> Re:Tantric Astrology> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 In Ayurveda we have the Drakshasava, which is nothing but wine and it is used for medicinal purpose. The two tolas of wine prescribed for the Tantric ritual will not make one intoxicated but will just predispose one towards getting the benefit of the Tantric rituals. Those who are averse to wine can do with Alipan or can take the substitute. Ramakrishna Paramhansa also used the substitute as it is permitted in Tantra to use substitute. SKB--- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 wrote:vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 Re:Tantric Astrology Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:56 PM "The point is, the "literlal" sense of using wine itself can be "good" in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. " Yes, using wine itself can be good in Tantra, but not in all types of Tantra. Bloody sacrifices were also good for some, but not for all. Some even preferred human sacrifices. -VJ ancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote: > > "I again assert that good people use Tantra in a good way and bad > people use it in a bad way. In Tantra, 'wine' means spiritual ecstasy > for some, while others use it literally. " > > The point is, the "literlal" sense of using wine itself can be "good" in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > ancient_indian_ astrology > Wednesday, January 7, 2009 12:45:34 PM > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Tantric Astrology > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Well said Sreesog jee! Now let me translate the tantric verse about wine : " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " " Drink till you fall to the ground, then rise again and drink till you fall again, then rise again for the third time and drink, (if you are able to drink so much) then you will be relieved from the cycles of rebirths " !!! Let us call a spade a spade. I had hoped Sunil jee would have tried to locate that shloka of Gita which this verse parodied. But Sunil jee thinks on some different plane. Even Mirza Ghalib or Haribans Rai Bachchan could not write such a fine poetry about the virtues of wine ! But it is not ivory tower poetry. This verse was used by a lot of vamamargi tantrics, excepting some individuals, in actual practice, although in secrecy. Why the verse of Gita was parodied, which ended with " ...punarjanma na vidyate " ? Does it not tell something about the religious attitudes of author/authors of Kularnava Tantra? See Satyaartha Prakaash of Swami Dayananda Saraswati for Swami jee's views about this " peetva " mantra. It was not poetry, it was used as a mantra. -VJ , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote: > > Dear Sunil Bhattacharjya ji, > In my opinion, 'Peetva' does refer to wine and that boldness itself > is the beauty of Tantra. Why mis-interpret and super imposs our > inhibitions and psychological barriers on those original Tantrics? > Love and regards, > Sreenadh > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > Namaste, > > > > " Peetva " does not necessarily refer to wine. It is the exhileration > that a bhakta gets through devotion. For different categories of Tantric > devotees there are different ways. For the sattvic type the substitutes > like sugarcane juice or honey are recommended. For some only " Alipan " or > a drop on the tongue is recommended. For the people who are really used > to taking wine the quantity of wine should not be more than 2 Tolas ie. > not more than one ounce, during the Tantric rituals. I do not remember > the relevant sloka and has no means to look at the refernce books in my > home as I am presently away from India but I hope some scholars in this > forum may remember the relevant verse. > > > > There has been effort in the past by the Vedic scholars with limited > awareness to vilify Tantra.. > > > > Regards, > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ > > Re:Tantric Astrology > > > > Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:53 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let Kularnava Tantra speak for itself : > > > > " Peetvaa Peetvaa purar-peetvaa, yavat patati bhootale; > > Punarutthaana vai peetvaa, punarjanma na vidyate ! " > > > > Last words (punarjanma na vidyate) were copied fron Gita verbatim. > > Gita's shloka said that moksha is attained by means of bhakti in God. > > Kularnava Tantra parodied Gita by replacing God with wine. > > > > There are Vedic Tantras too, which are good for everyone. Asuri Tantra > > was practised by demon-worsh- ppers. What Meghnada was doing with > > Nikumbhalaa when Laxmana killed him? Meghnada was not performing some > > religious act, otherwise Laxmana would have sinned by killing a > > devotee during puja. Religion is not demonic orgy. > > > > There are archaological sites bearing words like asura, bali, atc in > > Madhubani and Purnua and Bangladesh. One Harappan site is Asurakota. > > Some Finnish and Russian scolars had opined that the rulers of > > Mohenjodaro belonged to buffalo clan. They did not know that the rules > > of Harappa were worshippers of Mahishasura. Even today, Shakta texts > > used in Durga Puja in Mithila and Bengal contain a mantra which > > invokes Lord Sadaa-Shiva in the body of Mahishasura before he is > slayed! > > > > Demon-worshippers ruled a greater part of the known Earth during most > > of Kaliyuga. In Greece, names like Ari-stotre (one who chantra stotras > > for the Enemy of God) > Ali-stotle, Ari-stophanes (Ari-stubh-) , > > ale-xander, etc are reminiscent of opponents of God, who killed the > > real devotee Su-kratu (Socrates). > > > > I do not want to offend those who derive good meanings of bad tantric > > mantras. Even the " peetvaa.. " shloka is positively translated by a > > vaishnava. If someone feels offended, I take my words back. I am > > concerned with merely those tantric texts which help me in astrology. > > > > -VJ > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil > Bhattacharjya > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vinayji, > > > > > > I read Kularnava Tantra quite sometime ago and to my memory > > Kularnava Tantra claims that it is based on he Vedas. Tantra had a bad > > name because of its misuse by the unscrupulous peiople. That is why > > the Mahanirvana Tantra says that only the married couple should > > practice Tantra and it is rightfully so as the word " Kaula " itself > > comes from the word " Kula " , which means family. Others can practice > > tantra but in case of a single woman she must cross the child-bearing > > age, before participating in tantric rituals, for obvious reason. > > These Tantric rituals must be performard in private not to disturb the > > fabric of the sciety. However there were violations of these norms in > > the past and that created a bad image for Tantra. > > > > > > Adi Sankaracharya composed the Saundaryalahari and also wrte a > > commentary om Lalita Trishati. His Paramguru Gaudacharya also wrote > > Saubhagodayastuti and Srividyaratna largely for the sanyashis and the > > rest, though a grihasthi can also practice this Samayachara. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > --- On Mon, 1/5/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Fwd: Re: Tantric Astrology > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > Monday, January 5, 2009, 3:27 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his > > generous response. > > > > > > For Shakadvipis, see > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Sakaldwipiya > > > http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Varahamihira > > > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first > > link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis. > > > > > > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in > > Jyotisha at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source > > of this legend. > > > > > > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was > > Vedic Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. > > 48 unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of > > the former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them > > to anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric > > texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, > > like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi) . Vedic versus Tantric debate relates > > to this anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites > > like marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to > > Panch-shalaakaa and Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala > tantras. > > > > > > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana > > in ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two > > schools have been created by modern authors. > > > > > > Cf. http://jyotirvidya. wetpaint. com/page/ Ayanamsha for Indian > > definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning > > of Tropical. I will elaborate it further. > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > <sreesog@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, > > > > Thanks for the informative post. > > > > ==> > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > > was a > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the > treatise ; > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > Narapati's > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > eulogies > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > > suggest him > > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > <== > > > > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and > the > > > > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book > Narapati > > > > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him. > > > > ==> > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > <== > > > > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative > argument > > > > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and > > > > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was > > > > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - " Seriously > > Tantra > > > > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology? " . > > So I > > > > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > > > ==> > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > > > > <== > > > > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of > > > > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the > > > > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give > > more > > > > light about the line of argument: > > > > http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > > Chandra > > > > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_ Oct_2007. pdf > > > > <http://groups. / group/ancient_ indian_astrology > > Chandra% 20\ > > > > Hari/Aryabhata% 20and%20Jain% 20Tradition_ IJHA_Oct_ 2007.pdf> > > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > Varah > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > > even > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had > gone > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > <== > > > > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this > > > > information is totally new to me. What about the word " Kapitthala " > > - is > > > > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the > name > > > > " Shakaldvipi " (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ? > > > > ==> > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title > is > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > <== > > > > OK - Possible. > > > > ==> > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > > Kashmiri > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were > Tantric > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > <== > > > > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to > > > > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric > idol > > > > worship, temple worship etc. > > > > ==> > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and > tropical > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in > Vedic > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > colonialist > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and > wanted to > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. E > > > > <== > > > > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak > > > > otherwise. > > > > ==> > > > > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, > sunset, > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > > other > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > > even > > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > <== > > > > Agree. > > > > ==> > > > > > Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > > practised in India by anyone. > > > > <== > > > > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana > > > > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and > > > > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better > to > > > > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory. > > > > ==> > > > > > If nirayana system is completely > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the > West. > > > > <== > > > > Agree. > > > > > > > > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from > that > > > > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are > > > > thirsty. > > > > > > > > Love and Hugs, > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " vinayjhaa16 " > > > > vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post. > > > > > > > > > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati > > was a > > > > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the > treatise ; > > > > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when > Narapati's > > > > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with > > eulogies > > > > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it > > suggest him > > > > > to be a non-brahmin? > > > > > > > > > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of > > > > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins. > > > > > > > > > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read > > > > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. > Varah > > > > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him > > even > > > > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had > gone > > > > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names. > > > > > > > > > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title > is > > > > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes. > > > > > > > > > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of > > Kashmiri > > > > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were > Tantric > > > > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well ! > > > > > > > > > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and > tropical > > > > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in > Vedic > > > > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant > colonialist > > > > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and > wanted to > > > > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, > tropical > > > > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the > > > > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, > sunset, > > > > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and > > other > > > > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology > > even > > > > > in the nirayana school. > > > > > > > > > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions > > > > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands > : > > > > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never > > > > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely > > > > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the > West. > > > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > ============ = ============ ===== ============ ========= > > > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, " Sreenadh " > > > > > sreesog@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > <== > > > > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th > > > > > > century authentic text on astrology named " Narapati > Jayacharya " . > > > > > > > > > > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam > > > > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam > > > > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam > > > > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam > > > > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim > > > > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha > > > > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha > > > > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale > > > > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro( a)hamatmana > > > > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya > > > > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century > > > > AD) > > > > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after > > referring > > > > to > > > > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - > firstly > > > > the 7 > > > > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi > > Yamala, > > > > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric > > texts > > > > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam, > > Rakshokhnam, > > > > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala > > etc] > > > > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati > > > > Jayacharya > > > > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?! > > > > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the > long > > > > list > > > > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > > > > Yap, > > > > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance. > > > > > > > > > > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from > > > > ancient > > > > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha > > > > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka > hora, > > > > Surya > > > > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available > > > > quotes to > > > > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do > not > > > > provide > > > > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept > or > > > > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So > > let us > > > > go > > > > > > by the datable and available texts. > > > > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known > as > > > > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas > > > > settled > > > > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure. > > > > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well > proved > > > > by > > > > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a > > Jain, and > > > > also > > > > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his > > > > father's > > > > > > name is " Aditya Dasa " . The Vedic brahmins does not use a name > that > > > > ends > > > > > > in the word " Dasa " (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > dictionaries) . Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner > > who come > > > > and > > > > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and > > > > Mihira > > > > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins. > > > > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali > > > > from > > > > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, > > Narapati the > > > > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain. > > > > Kalyana > > > > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - > > evidently a > > > > not > > > > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower - > > > > evidently > > > > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as > evident > > > > from > > > > > > the quote I provided above. > > > > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from > > > > > Orissa. > > > > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king > > and a > > > > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin. > > > > > > > > > > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be - > > > > > > > > > > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin, > > > > certainly > > > > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was > never > > > > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins! > > > > > > > > > > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, > certainly > > > > > it was > > > > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never > supported > > > > by > > > > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva > > > > Parisishta, > > > > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate > proofs > > > > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it > > is well > > > > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic > Brahmins; > > > > no > > > > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!] > > > > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Sreenadh " > <sreesog@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji, > > > > > > > ==> > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers > for > > > > > > > tantric astrology? > > > > > > > <== > > > > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to > act > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that > there is > > > > scope > > > > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya > > > > > > > Mahatantra== ========= ========= ========= ========= ===The > > available > > > > text > > > > > > on > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters > and > > > > 160 > > > > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas " Siromani " , meaning " gem > > in the > > > > > > head'. > > > > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara > > (lord > > > > > > Siva) > > > > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala > Mantra > > > > > > (Medicine) > > > > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge > > streams the > > > > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala > > Mantra is > > > > the > > > > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related > > to the > > > > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others, > > > > attracting > > > > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave > > their > > > > > > native > > > > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability > etc. > > > > Yes, > > > > > > it > > > > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands > of > > > > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along > > with gem > > > > > > like > > > > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the > > > > branch > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of > > knowing > > > > > > about > > > > > > > the past-present- future, time of death etc. Of these two > (Kala > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in > the > > > > > > available > > > > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use > > > > medicine > > > > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma > > > > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana) > > etc. > > > > But > > > > > > we > > > > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra > > (Astrology) > > > > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of > > > > medicine > > > > > > in > > > > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal > > > > plants > > > > > > are > > > > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served > some > > > > secret > > > > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric > culture. > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have > been > > > > the > > > > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even > > though in > > > > the > > > > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa > etc] > > > > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and > > > > KalaTantra, > > > > > > we > > > > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly > > with > > > > > > Kala > > > > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with > Kala > > > > > > Tantra > > > > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime. > > > > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva > > > > > > - " Approaching > > > > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher > of > > > > all > > > > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, > with > > > > > > folded > > > > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the > devotees > > > > > > please > > > > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra " In the same > > > > style > > > > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well > > from > > > > lord > > > > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra > > (Astrology) > > > > as > > > > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because > > > > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, > can be > > > > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this > > > > conclusion. > > > > > > As > > > > > > > mentioned earlier, " Siromani " (gem in thehead) is another > > name for > > > > > > this > > > > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas " gem in the head " > > by the > > > > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha- > > > > " Like > > > > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a > cobra, > > > > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem) " > > > > > > > Yes, the praise " gem in the head " usually goes to KalaTantra > - > > > > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because > ofthis > > > > even > > > > > > > the other name " Siromani " of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicate > > s that > > > > Kala > > > > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. > But > > > > that > > > > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore. > > > > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument. > > Dattatreyagives > > > > a > > > > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra > atthe > > > > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are > > mentioned,but > > > > only > > > > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in > theprinted > > > > text. > > > > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14, 15,16,17, 18 (Total 9 chapters)seems > > to be > > > > > > missing. > > > > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya > Mahatantra > > > > is an > > > > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the question > > > > > > > rises, " Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to > learn > > > > from > > > > > > lord > > > > > > > Siva? " No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that > > could > > > > be > > > > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, > he > > > > might > > > > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be > > made > > > > use > > > > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva- > > > > > > " In > > > > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships > are > > > > present. > > > > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, > and in > > > > many > > > > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala > Tantra > > > > that > > > > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra > etc) > > > > 'in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions " This is what > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about medicine > > > > > > (Kala > > > > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is > > > > Shadkarma > > > > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This > > knowledge > > > > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya > > > > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and > > > > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'. > > > > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word > > Puranahere > > > > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda > > > > hereindicates > > > > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called > Brahmana,Aaranyaka, > > > > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor > > > > Tantric > > > > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So > thestatement > > > > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra > > > > (Agama) > > > > > > and > > > > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is > Vishnava > > > > > > Tantra. > > > > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request > of > > > > > > Dattatreya > > > > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and > > teach him > > > > the > > > > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is > beneficial > > > > for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method. > > > > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in > acorrupted > > > > state at > > > > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it > was > > > > very > > > > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the > > pile. > > > > The > > > > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and > > > > Puranas > > > > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from > > Tantrics and > > > > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the > > > > pain of > > > > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge > is > > > > > > becoming > > > > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the > > > > heritage of > > > > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - " This great > > > > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who > > devotes > > > > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for > davas, > > > > first > > > > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true > > > > devotee of > > > > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons > > who does > > > > not > > > > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. > One > > > > should > > > > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong > > willed and > > > > is > > > > > > a > > > > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone " The statement, > > > > " Astrology is > > > > > > > originated from lord Siva " (Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for > > special > > > > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) > this > > > > truth > > > > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read > > horoscope, > > > > or > > > > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara > (Siva). > > > > This > > > > > > is > > > > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in > the > > > > form > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the > ultimate > > > > Guru > > > > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric > tradition. > > > > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we > considerthe > > > > concept > > > > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of > > > > > > astrology, > > > > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma > > > > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma > > > > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) This is curious! This difference in > concept > > > > about > > > > > > the > > > > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are > all > > > > > > different > > > > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated > and > > > > existed > > > > > > in > > > > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as > > Rasi > > > > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed > > in a > > > > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic > concepts > > > > such > > > > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some > > > > > > othercivilization > > > > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as > > > > theSindhu-Saraswati > > > > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could > > prove > > > > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not. > > > > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the > astrologicalcontent in > > > > the > > > > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go > back > > > > to > > > > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines > > could be > > > > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells > > > > Dattatreya - > > > > > > > " Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial > forthe > > > > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on > > > > medicine)which > > > > > > is > > > > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you, > > puttingaside > > > > the > > > > > > > knowledge of astrology " Because - " (For the benefit > > > > with > > > > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra, > > Vreta, > > > > Day, > > > > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an > auspicious > > > > muhoorta > > > > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits > > well for > > > > the > > > > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of > it > > > > the > > > > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their > effect > > > > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use > > these > > > > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships) " With this advice > > > > lord > > > > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine) . Since > those > > > > slokas > > > > > > are > > > > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If > > anyone > > > > is > > > > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya > Mahatantra > > > > to > > > > > > know > > > > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the > > > > available > > > > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). > The > > > > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. > Siva > > > > said: > > > > > > > " Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of > > > > humanbeings I > > > > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen " > Dwadesa > > > > dala > > > > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa > sankhayani > > > > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi > likhyate > > > > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya > > vedhe > > > > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve > cha > > > > chandre > > > > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase > > vicharayete > > > > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra) " From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, > > we can > > > > > > have > > > > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the > > numbers of > > > > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In > > each of > > > > the > > > > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current > > > > planetary > > > > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc > in > > > > the > > > > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects > > (Drishti) > > > > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. > If > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness, > > > > forJupiter > > > > > > - > > > > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, > for > > > > Venus > > > > > > - > > > > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done > every > > > > month " > > > > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha > > > > ismentioned > > > > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and > RasiVedha > > > > is > > > > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for > KalaMrityu > > > > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this sloka > > > > was > > > > > > a > > > > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will > > explain.(1) > > > > > > > Mention of months starting from > > > > > > > Chitra------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > > > > Why it > > > > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite > > down the > > > > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in > each > > > > > > square > > > > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that - > > > > Chaitra > > > > > > = > > > > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ? > > > > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should > > > > > > becalculated, > > > > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint > > 180 deg > > > > > > away > > > > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe > like?(2) > > > > Mrityu > > > > > > > Karaka Graha------- --------- ------- Is Saturn > > > > mentioned > > > > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings " Janma > riksha > > > > janma > > > > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare " , directlymentioning Saturn > would > > > > have > > > > > > been > > > > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning > > > > Saturn > > > > > > and > > > > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ? > > > > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should > beconsidered, > > > > then > > > > > > what > > > > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider? (3) Riksha > - > > > > Nakshatra > > > > > > > or sign-------- --------- --------- ---- The word > > > > Riksha > > > > > > has > > > > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma > Riksha > > > > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna > > sign, Moon > > > > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha > > > > > > represents > > > > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider > both > > > > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? > > How to > > > > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary > context?(4) > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > and the related prediction-- --------- --------- --------- > > ------- > > > > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it > issaid > > > > that > > > > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory > tothe > > > > Vedha > > > > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many > typesof > > > > Vedha is > > > > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha > andGraha > > > > Vedha > > > > > > in > > > > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved > while > > > > > > predicting > > > > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or > > > > > > > Gochara----- --------- -------- This Gochara-Vedha > > > > system > > > > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase > mase > > > > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit > > > > should be > > > > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he > > > > avoided > > > > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and > > > > Ketu?(6) > > > > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology--- --------- --------- --------- > - > > > > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the > personwho > > > > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here > > weencounter > > > > a > > > > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould > we > > > > > > observe > > > > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated > after > > > > > > Sripati > > > > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed > the > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya > > Tantra? > > > > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to > > findanswers > > > > to > > > > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of > > theastrology > > > > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must. > > > > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we > canclassify > > > > them > > > > > > into > > > > > > > several categories:- (i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati > period > > > > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAs trology)( ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas > and > > > > allied > > > > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology) (iii) Astrology mentioned Epics > > (Epic > > > > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic > > > > Astrology)(v) > > > > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - > Itis > > > > the > > > > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a > > > > wholesecret > > > > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology > of > > > > Arsha > > > > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological > texts. > > > > This > > > > > > is > > > > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with > Skanda > > > > Hora, > > > > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The > acharyas > > > > in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, > Kousika, > > > > Sounaka > > > > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. > (Arsha > > > > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of > > > > thought](vii) > > > > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in > variousancient > > > > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in > > > > Indianastrology > > > > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas > in > > > > this > > > > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of > > course > > > > > > there > > > > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and > > Parasara. But > > > > > > books > > > > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am > not > > > > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a > single > > > > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of > > any of > > > > the > > > > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available > for > > > > > > research! > > > > > > > They are requesting tous, " please, please, come forward and > > reveal > > > > the > > > > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you... " All this ancient knowledge > on > > > > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half > forgotten, > > > > > > unexplored > > > > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us, > > > > > > > " TamasomaJyotirgama ya... " . Yes, there is a large amount of > work > > > > > > pending, > > > > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge > is > > > > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower > > their > > > > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are > truly > > > > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin > our > > > > search > > > > > > for > > > > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is > > > > child's > > > > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be > explored! > > > > Let > > > > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the > > all, > > > > > > forthe > > > > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of learning!Love, > > Sreenadh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============ ========= ========= ======== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hinducivilization, " Bhadraiah > > Mallampalli " > > > > > > > vaidix@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of > interest. > > > > That > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give > > > > *everything* > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Veda " is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is > the > > > > > > > > equivalent of " papers " published by scientists or > > > > mathematicians. A > > > > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed > by > > > > the > > > > > > > > author. The " journal " is the compilation of such articles > and > > > > can be > > > > > > > > called " veda " in the modern sense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific > > documents are > > > > not > > > > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted > > results > > > > (we > > > > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To > > > > discard > > > > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the > > unpublished > > > > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) > is > > > > stupid. > > > > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of > > relativity from > > > > > > > > Newton's works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't > > > > understand > > > > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the > > total > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed > > (well, > > > > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each > > veda > > > > are > > > > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda > > > > > > > > as " tantra " because we can hardly understand anything in > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers > for > > > > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out > of > > > > > > > > it. " Vedic " astrology is beyond visibility for now, and > > > > > > inconceivable > > > > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some > universal > > > > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted > > > > completely > > > > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim > of > > > > > > > > astrology as a veda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhadraiah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 From " peetva peetva punar-peetva " three times till falling to the ground, now Sunil jee has come down to two tolas of wine only! He is right in suggesting that " wine prescribed for the Tantric ritual .... will just predispose one towards getting the benefit of the Tantric rituals " , because without being intoxicated one cannot perform the next steps which I feel too obscene to describe. The " peetva " mantra holds no bar on the dose. Sunil jee is wrong in limiting the dose to only two tolas, which will not allow a tantric to get the full BENEFIT of next steps to utmost satisfaction. -VJ , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > In Ayurveda we have the Drakshasava, which is nothing but wine and it is used for medicinal purpose. The two tolas of wine prescribed for the Tantric ritual will not make one intoxicated but will just predispose one towards getting the benefit of the Tantric rituals. Those who are averse to wine can do with Alipan or can take the substitute. Ramakrishna Paramhansa also used the substitute as it is permitted in Tantra to use substitute. > > SKB > > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 > Re:Tantric Astrology > > Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:56 PM > > > > > " The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself can be " good " > > in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. " > > > > Yes, using wine itself can be good in Tantra, but not in all types of > > Tantra. Bloody sacrifices were also good for some, but not for all. > > Some even preferred human sacrifices. > > > > -VJ > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj > > Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > " I again assert that good people use Tantra in a good way and bad > > > people use it in a bad way. In Tantra, 'wine' means spiritual ecstasy > > > for some, while others use it literally. " > > > > > > The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself can be > > " good " in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > Wednesday, January 7, 2009 12:45:34 PM > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Tantric Astrology > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I do not think that all Tantric rituals involve intoxication through wine. Please clear this, lest newcomers like me think differently. The obscene steps which you do not wish to pen down may be obscene in your views but when you talk of Tantra as a lover of Tantra, then nothing is obscene from the view of a Tantric student which you claim to be. IF the end is pure or attainment of a positive desire and the means only involve using a dead corpse or a copulation with a willing partner under the state of intoxication, then it would be obscene in the views of a outsider or a third bencher who does not know about these arts, but I believe they would be a form of the necessary ritual which encompasses the means. regards/Bhaskar. , " vinayjhaa16 " <vinayjhaa16 wrote: > > From " peetva peetva punar-peetva " three times till falling to the > ground, now Sunil jee has come down to two tolas of wine only! > > He is right in suggesting that " wine prescribed for the Tantric ritual > ... will just predispose one towards getting the benefit of the > Tantric rituals " , because without being intoxicated one cannot > perform the next steps which I feel too obscene to describe. > > The " peetva " mantra holds no bar on the dose. Sunil jee is wrong in > limiting the dose to only two tolas, which will not allow a tantric to > get the full BENEFIT of next steps to utmost satisfaction. > > -VJ > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya > sunil_bhattacharjya@ wrote: > > > > In Ayurveda we have the Drakshasava, which is nothing but wine and > it is used for medicinal purpose. The two tolas of wine prescribed for > the Tantric ritual will not make one intoxicated but will just > predispose one towards getting the benefit of the Tantric rituals. > Those who are averse to wine can do with Alipan or can take the > substitute. Ramakrishna Paramhansa also used the substitute as it is > permitted in Tantra to use substitute. > > > > SKB > > > > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ wrote: > > vinayjhaa16 vinayjhaa16@ > > Re:Tantric Astrology > > > > Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:56 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself > can be " good " > > > > in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. " > > > > > > > > Yes, using wine itself can be good in Tantra, but not in all types of > > > > Tantra. Bloody sacrifices were also good for some, but not for all. > > > > Some even preferred human sacrifices. > > > > > > > > -VJ > > > > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj > > > > Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > " I again assert that good people use Tantra in a good way and bad > > > > > people use it in a bad way. In Tantra, 'wine' means spiritual ecstasy > > > > > for some, while others use it literally. " > > > > > > > > > > The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself can be > > > > " good " in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > > > Wednesday, January 7, 2009 12:45:34 PM > > > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Tantric Astrology > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 It is a matter of perspective. What is the context of vamacara, where does our aesthetic sense of good-bad-ugly apply, and what not. The whole problem is because of taking of things out of their context. Bali is not a part of vamacara. Anything makes sense in its right context - including himsa and bali. There are a whole range of practices related to bali, and " bloody bali " does not describe those. People do eat meat and in that case consecrating the animal before eating does not give it a negative connotation - it makes it rather positive. Yes, there are practices that are extreme (for instance nara bali) - that does not make the basic concept wrong. Dwijas ate meat in the Puranic times, esp when it is consecrated in a sacrifice. Over time smritis toned it down and discouraged mamsa for brahmin. And in temples animal is replaced by pista pasu. That does not make animal sacrifice any barbaric. It only implies that social conditions have changed. As long as a person does not interfere with the lives of other persons, being judgmental on his practices, whatever they are, is not necessary. It is not that mamsa, madya and maithuna attract people and that is why they condone vamacara. You might be surprised to see how far they are from those practices really. To be talking dispassionately of the rich and diverse traditions, personal preferences are not required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 That is true. But the relevance is blown out of proportion and is made a big topic of discussion and an object of calumny by the 19-20 century western scholarship. Please read " Invading the Sacred " for more details on this. ________________________________ Bhaskar <rajiventerprises Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:51:40 PM Re:Tantric Astrology I do not think that all Tantric rituals involve intoxication through wine. Please clear this, lest newcomers like me think differently. The obscene steps which you do not wish to pen down may be obscene in your views but when you talk of Tantra as a lover of Tantra, then nothing is obscene from the view of a Tantric student which you claim to be. IF the end is pure or attainment of a positive desire and the means only involve using a dead corpse or a copulation with a willing partner under the state of intoxication, then it would be obscene in the views of a outsider or a third bencher who does not know about these arts, but I believe they would be a form of the necessary ritual which encompasses the means. regards/Bhaskar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 With two tolas (roughly equivalent to one ounce) one does not get intoxicated. One gets only the relaxation. It is also within the safe limit of drinking prescribed by the World Health Organization (WHO). As I said that there is indeed a verse on the two tolas but I am at this time away from my home hence cannot give you the verse and the exact reference. If you think that no such recommendation is there, that is fine with me. SKB --- On Wed, 1/7/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 wrote: vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16 Re:Tantric Astrology Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 5:57 AM From " peetva peetva punar-peetva " three times till falling to the ground, now Sunil jee has come down to two tolas of wine only! He is right in suggesting that " wine prescribed for the Tantric ritual .... will just predispose one towards getting the benefit of the Tantric rituals " , because without being intoxicated one cannot perform the next steps which I feel too obscene to describe. The " peetva " mantra holds no bar on the dose. Sunil jee is wrong in limiting the dose to only two tolas, which will not allow a tantric to get the full BENEFIT of next steps to utmost satisfaction. -VJ ancient_indian_ astrology, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > In Ayurveda we have the Drakshasava, which is nothing but wine and it is used for medicinal purpose. The two tolas of wine prescribed for the Tantric ritual will not make one intoxicated but will just predispose one towards getting the benefit of the Tantric rituals. Those who are averse to wine can do with Alipan or can take the substitute. Ramakrishna Paramhansa also used the substitute as it is permitted in Tantra to use substitute. > > SKB > > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> wrote: > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Tantric Astrology > ancient_indian_ astrology > Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:56 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > " The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself can be " good " > > in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. " > > > > Yes, using wine itself can be good in Tantra, but not in all types of > > Tantra. Bloody sacrifices were also good for some, but not for all. > > Some even preferred human sacrifices. > > > > -VJ > > > > ancient_indian_ astrology, ShankaraBharadwaj > > Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > " I again assert that good people use Tantra in a good way and bad > > > people use it in a bad way. In Tantra, 'wine' means spiritual ecstasy > > > for some, while others use it literally. " > > > > > > The point is, the " literlal " sense of using wine itself can be > > " good " in Tantra. It purpose, philosophy are different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > > vinayjhaa16 <vinayjhaa16@ ...> > > > ancient_indian_ astrology > > > Wednesday, January 7, 2009 12:45:34 PM > > > [ancient_indian_ astrology] Re:Tantric Astrology > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Namaskar everyone,since tantra is being discussed. I was reading about Aghora in Robert svoboda although the book can be a fiction based write up subjected to personal view. I came across the character of jina chandra suri who was an expert astrolger and did found out how the central character vimlananda was a potential medium to succeed in SHAV SADHANA. Now since the thread is named as Tantric Astrology - i thereby ask the group members 1] what are the combinations for a person doing TANTRIC SADHANA.2] What are the combinations for Shav sadhana?Nice discussion. Thanking you all and wish you a great year ahead. God bless us all.kindly ignore if the questions sounded a bit kiddish in nature.May the grace of divine mother be on all. Thanking you all once again. Your eternal well-wisher, aRNAB Mukherjee. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Mukherjee, I recommend that book for all seekers of the truth . In fact I recommend all his books to all seekrs, including his book on Jyotish " Light of Life " which is a superb renderation of the Indian traditional jyotish principles alomngwith Logic, which has no compare with any of the authors in India, who have not been able to produce any such single book on Jyotish with such fascinating insights into Jyotish. Only a person related with Tantra could go deep into the subtle meanings and the evaluations of our Jyotish principles with such accuracyand interesting reading. Now coming to Who can do Shava Sadhana. Those whose charts have the significators of the 9th and 5th house related to Rahu placed in the 8th, then its a sure shot case of a person into Tantric sadhanas. This principle can be expanded if anyone has the time. regards, Bhaskar. , ady mjee <arnab_ten wrote: > > Namaskar everyone, > > since tantra is being discussed. I was reading about Aghora in Robert svoboda although the book can be a fiction based write up subjected to personal view. I came across the character of jina chandra suri who was an expert astrolger and did found out how the central character vimlananda was a potential medium to succeed in SHAV SADHANA. Now since the thread is named as Tantric Astrology - i thereby ask the group members > 1] what are the combinations for a person doing TANTRIC SADHANA. > 2] What are the combinations for Shav sadhana? > Nice discussion. Thanking you all and wish you a great year ahead. God bless us all. > kindly ignore if the questions sounded a bit kiddish in nature. > May the grace of divine mother be on all. Thanking you all once again. > > Your eternal well-wisher,      aRNAB Mukherjee.  > > > Connect with friends all over the world. Get India Messenger at http://in.messenger./?wm=n/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Guys who has no comprehension of Rasi & Vargas talk about Tantra, Aghori and Savasadhana. One can fancy about anything like the monkeys mimicking human beings. Tantra is not getting discussed here. Fancy of some guys for the hearsay about Tantra is getting discussed. Depth of these people finds expression in what they speak. From Rasi and Bhava, the leap is to Tantra and to Savasadhana. Present times are not suited to teach anything to anyone. Given a choice I would have thrown 90% of the group members here in to Arabian sea for polluting Jyotisha. Rest of the fools must be taught with heavy slaps every day. I don't care for the Monkeys jumping to abuse me. It is part of the game. Even if flowers are thrown at the monkeys, they will return stones. For the sensible monkeys, my abuse will work like an advice. Rest must be doomed if Jyotihsastra is to improve. Founder of R_Jyotisha is doomed. His magazine and family are also doomed. Rest of Rs are also going to be doomed if Corpses ever walked on Indian graveyards, if aghoris carry any truth, if the Siva-Saktipithams have any potence beyond public toilets... chandra hari , ady mjee <arnab_ten wrote:>> Namaskar everyone,> > since tantra is being discussed. I was reading about Aghora in Robert svoboda although the book can be a fiction based write up subjected to personal view. I came across the character of jina chandra suri who was an expert astrolger and did found out how the central character vimlananda was a potential medium to succeed in SHAV SADHANA. Now since the thread is named as Tantric Astrology - i thereby ask the group members > 1] what are the combinations for a person doing TANTRIC SADHANA.> 2] What are the combinations for Shav sadhana?> Nice discussion. Thanking you all and wish you a great year ahead. God bless us all.> kindly ignore if the questions sounded a bit kiddish in nature.> May the grace of divine mother be on all. Thanking you all once again. > > Your eternal well-wisher,      aRNAB Mukherjee.  > > > Connect with friends all over the world. Get India Messenger at http://in.messenger./?wm=n/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Dear Bhaskarji, Quite some years I was told by a person that the Tula rashi people are good at these practices but did not tell me why? Can there be any truth in that? Regards, Sunil K. BHattacharjya --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Bhaskar <rajiventerprises wrote: Bhaskar <rajiventerprises Re:Tantric Astrology Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 10:45 PM Dear Mukherjee, I recommend that book for all seekers of the truth . In fact I recommend all his books to all seekrs, including his book on Jyotish " Light of Life " which is a superb renderation of the Indian traditional jyotish principles alomngwith Logic, which has no compare with any of the authors in India, who have not been able to produce any such single book on Jyotish with such fascinating insights into Jyotish. Only a person related with Tantra could go deep into the subtle meanings and the evaluations of our Jyotish principles with such accuracyand interesting reading. Now coming to Who can do Shava Sadhana. Those whose charts have the significators of the 9th and 5th house related to Rahu placed in the 8th, then its a sure shot case of a person into Tantric sadhanas. This principle can be expanded if anyone has the time. regards, Bhaskar. ancient_indian_ astrology, ady mjee <arnab_ten@. ..> wrote: > > Namaskar everyone, > > since tantra is being discussed. I was reading about Aghora in Robert svoboda although the book can be a fiction based write up subjected to personal view. I came across the character of jina chandra suri who was an expert astrolger and did found out how the central character vimlananda was a potential medium to succeed in SHAV SADHANA. Now since the thread is named as Tantric Astrology - i thereby ask the group members > 1] what are the combinations for a person doing TANTRIC SADHANA. > 2] What are the combinations for Shav sadhana? > Nice discussion. Thanking you all and wish you a great year ahead. God bless us all. > kindly ignore if the questions sounded a bit kiddish in nature. > May the grace of divine mother be on all. Thanking you all once again. > > Your eternal well-wisher,      aRNAB Mukherjee.  > > > Connect with friends all over the world. Get India Messenger at http://in.messenger ./ ?wm=n/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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