Guest guest Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Dear Vinay Jha ji, The link you provided was very interesting. Thanks. I have pasted the contents of the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya at the end of this message for the easy reference of all. Ok. Now only I understood that you are referring to Saka-Dwipeeya (From 'Saka' Island) People. Jambu Deepa was Asia - it is believed. Which was Saka Dwipa? Arebian Continent? The statement -==>The Sakaldwipiya Brahmin community of India identify themselves as having Iranian roots, and assert that they inherit their by-name maga from a group of priests (cf. maga) who established themselves in India as the Maga-Dias or Maga-Brahmanas.<== Seems to point to the argument that 'Saka Dwipa = Iran". So in essence the argument is that, Mihira is a forginer who came to India from Iran, or at least one who took birth in a clan that came from Iran and settled in India. Then the question arises - was his knowledge also came with him or did he adobpted it from India itself?!! What is your take on this? I think there would be numerous people who would argue against this for sure - especially in the absence of literary evidence which states that Mihira was a 'Saka dwipiya Brahmana' - or is there any? The following statement is also note worthy -==>Of the pious representatives of 18 families Samba invited to resettle in the city of Sambapura, eight were Mandagas, and their descendants became Shudras. The other 10 were Maga Brahmins, who married Bhoja vamsa women and so their descendants came to be known as Bhojakas.<== If the descendants of those Saka people who came to india became Shudras (Low cast) as clearly said in the above statement as indicated by the name "Dasa" (as in Mihira's father's name - Aditya Dasa), then how those same descendents became Brahmans?! Either they are Shudras or Brahmins - they cannot be both at the same time! The following statements are also noteworthy -==>The Bhojakas are also mentioned in the inscriptions of Maurya Ashoka and Kharavela. Kadamba dynasty (4th-6th century) copperplates found in Karnataka mention Bhojakas as administrators of Jain institutions.The Bhojakas are historically associated with several Jain temples in Gujarat and Rajasthan, where they serve as priests and attendants. Kadamba dynasty (4th-6th century) copperplates found in Karnataka mention Bhojakas as administrators of Jain institutions.There are altogether 13 ´Sakadvipi gotras: Ka´syapa, Garga, Para´sara, Bhrigu/Bhargava, Kauṇá¸inya, Kausala, Bharadwaj, Vasu, Suryadatta/Arkadatta, Nala, Bhavya Maá¹i and Mihrasu.<== If they are not Jains then how should they be associated wtih Jain temples - I wonder! Please also note that the popular Jain sage Garga is also included in the above list!! It seems that all these Iran-Shudra-Jain-Brahnama etc link will remain contraversial for long and won't be settled!! ==>> There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was Vedic> Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. 48> unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of the> former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them to> anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric> texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, like> Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi). Vedic versus Tantric debate relates to this> anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites like> marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to Panch-shalaakaa and> Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras.<== It seems that you are equating the Dakshina Tantras with Vedic and Vama Tantras with Anti-Vedic! This could be wrong. For example, you state that -==>> Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, like Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi). <== Kularnava Tantra is NOT Anti-Vedic; But instead quotes extensively from Vedas. On the other hand there are several Dakshina Tantras does not mention Vedas at all. This points to the fact that the above statement could be wrong. ==>> http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha for Indian> definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning> of Tropical.<== Yap, I have already posted that article in the group. Love and regards,Sreenadh==================================Sakaldwipiya From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Sakaldwipiya Brahmins or Bhojaka Brahmins, is a class of Hindu priests and Ayurveda teachers (acharyas),[1] with concentrations in Western- and Northern India. "Sakaldwipiya" is a tadbhav of Sanskrit Shakadvipiya, an -iya adjective of Shakadvipa, one of the dvipa ("continents") of Hindu mythology. Spelling variants include Shakdvipi, Shakdwipi, Shakdweepi, Shakdvipiya, Shakdwipiya, Shakdweepiya, Shakadwipi, and Sakadwipi.[1] with concentrations in Western- and Northern India. The Sakaldwipiyas are also known as Maga Brahmins (see origin myth below). Also known as Maga Brahmins are the Suryadhwaja Brahmins, who however consider themselves to be distinct from the Sakaldwipiya/Bhojaka Brahmins. Contents [hide] 1 Origin myth2 In epigraphy3 In contemporary sources4 Internal structures5 Distribution6 See also7 Notes8 References9 Further reading [edit] Origin myth The Sakaldwipiya Brahmin community of India identify themselves as having Iranian roots, and assert that they inherit their by-name maga from a group of priests (cf. maga) who established themselves in India as the Maga-Dias or Maga-Brahmanas. The doctrinal basis for that assertion is Bhavishya Purana 133, which may be summarized as follows:[2][3] Krishna's son Samba was afflicted with leprosy, which was cured after he worshiped Surya, Hinduism's god of the Sun. In response, he built a temple to Surya on the banks of the Chandrabhaga river, but no competent Brahmin could be found to take up the role of priest in the temple. So Samba sought help of Gauramukha, the adviser of the yadu chief, Ugrasena.Gauramukha responded with a suggestion that Samba go to Shakdvipa (see note on Mahabharata 6:11, below[a]) and invite their priests to worship Surya. Further, asked Samba, "tell me, oh Brahmin, what are the antecedents of these worshipers of the Sun?" To which Gauramukha replied... "The first of the Brahmins amidst the Shakhas was called 'Sujihva.' [...] He had a daughter of the name Nikshubha, who so enamored Surya that she was impregnated by him. Thus she gave birth to Jarashabda who was the founding father of all the Maga-Acharya. They are distinguished by the sacred girdle called the Avyanga that they wear around their waist." And so Samba called on Krishna to send him Garuda, on whose back he then flew to Shakadwipa. He collected the Maga-Acharya, brought them back to India and installed them as priests of his Surya temple.Of the pious representatives of 18 families Samba invited to resettle in the city of Sambapura, eight were Mandagas, and their descendants became Shudras. The other 10 were Maga Brahmins, who married Bhoja vamsa women and so their descendants came to be known as Bhojakas. As such, the Sakaldwipiya are one of only two Brahmin groups who are said to have originated outside India, even if about half their clan names (gotras) are the same as those of other Brahmins. Whatever their original beliefs, by the time the Bhavishya Purana 133 was composed the Sakaldwipiyas were identified as devotees of Surya, Hinduism's deity of the Sun (cf. Hvar). Subsequently, in Vrihata samhita 60.19, Varahamihira directs that the installation of the Surya images should be made by the maga, as they were the first to worship the divinity. Other texts[citation needed] enjoin that the images of Surya should be dressed like a northerner with the legs covered, that he should wear a coat and a girdle. The early representations of the divinity actually follow these injunctions, and early iconography depicts the deity in central Asian dress, replete with boots. In time, the alien features by either discarded or stories were inventing to interpret the others. Nonetheless, the use of the word Mihir in India to refer to Hinduism's Surya is regarded to represent Sakaldwipiya influence, a derivation from Middle Iranian myhr, that is itself a post-4th century BCE development of another development of Avestan Mithra (< Indo-Iranian *mitra). But in Sanskrit, Mihir is derived from the root mih (cf. MW) which is also the root of Megha(cloud), and the chief meaning of this root is to cause rains. Since Sun also causes rains, Mihir came to mean 'Sun'. Mitra (cognate of Avestan Mithra ) was related to Sun, but only functionally, not structurally. And the Shakdwipi Brahamins do in fact appear to have been instrumental in the construction of Sun temples in different part of the country,[4] to include Kashmir, Kathiawad and Somnath in Gujarat, Dholpur in Rajasthan, Hissar in Jodhpur, Bharatput and Khajuraho in Madhya pradesh, Konark in Orissa and Deo, Punyark, Devkund and Umga in Bihar. [edit] In epigraphy The tale of the arrival of the Sakaldwipiyas appears to have been part of living tradition for many centuries. The Govindpur inscription of 1137-1138 refers to a maga family of Gaya, Bihar that was celebrated for its learning, Vedic scholarship and poetic faculty, and who descended from one of the original Samb invitees.[5] The Brahmins of the Godda district in Uttar Pradesh likewise trace their lineage to the original invitees. The maga-vyakti of Krishnadas Mishra is an elaboration of the legend. The Bhojakas are also mentioned in the inscriptions of Maurya Ashoka and Kharavela. Kadamba dynasty (4th-6th century) copperplates found in Karnataka mention Bhojakas as administrators of Jain institutions. [edit] In contemporary sources The A History of Brahmin Clans states that ´Sakadvipi Brahmins have a love for traditional (Sanskrit) knowledge and their Saṃskaras are like those of the Maithil Brahamanas, although matrimonial and other customary relations with Maithil (or other Brahmins) are not in vogue.[6] Dorilal ´Sarma ´Srotiya described them as follows: "they wear long Yajnopavita at the age of 8 years, keep quiet while eating, like to keep beards like sages, perform agnihotra, and charmed with mantras, and were called maga because they read the Vedas in haphazard ways."[6] [edit] Internal structures Apocryphally, the Sakaldwipiya centre was at Magadha. According to their tradition, they were there allotted 72 principalities (purs),[7] and were identified by their purs rather than by their lineage (gotras). In time they migrated in all directions, but retained their affiliation with the original purs (as opposed to identifying themselves with their lineage, their gotras), and are strict in their practice of gotra and pur exogamy (unlike other Brahmins) and give it prime importance in arranging marriages; endogamy within one of their 74 paras (i.e. allas) is prohibited. There are altogether 13 ´Sakadvipi gotras: Ka´syapa, Garga, Para´sara, Bhrigu/Bhargava, Kauṇá¸inya, Kausala, Bharadwaj, Vasu, Suryadatta/Arkadatta, Nala, Bhavya Maá¹i and Mihrasu. The Suryadhwaja have 5 gotras: Surya, Soral, Lakhi, Binju and Malek Jade. [edit] Distribution Major Sakaldwipiya centers are in Rajasthan in Western India and near Gaya in Bihar. The term 'Bhojaka' is popular in the western states while 'Sakadvipi' and its numerous variations is typical for the north and east. The terms 'Graham Vipra' and 'Acharya Brahmin' are common in West Bengal and Rajasthan. One of the Sakaldwipiya groups, the 'Suryadhwaja' Brahmins, are endemic to Northern India and is the only Shakadwipiya group classified as Kashmiri Pandits. The Bhojakas are historically associated with several Jain temples in Gujarat and Rajasthan, where they serve as priests and attendants.[8] Some of the Shakdwipi Brahmins of Bihar and Uttar pradesh are Ayurvedic physicians, some are priests in Rajput families, while yet others are landholders.[9] Surnames (Padavi or Aspada titles) in alphabetical order, with their respective traditional areas are: Surname Traditional "Root" Areas Bhatta J & K, Bihar Bhatt J & K, Bihar Upadhyay Jharkhand, Bihar,Chattisgarh Bhojak Rajasthan, Maharastra Mi´sra Rajasthan, Jharkhand, Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh PÄá¹haka Jharkhand, Bihar Mehrishi Kashmir, Uttar Pradesh, Delhi, Punjab, Rajasthan Surname Traditional "Root" Areas PÄṇá¸ey[6] Jharkhand, Bihar, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh Sharma Rajasthan Shukla Uttar Pradesh,Bihar Soral Delhi, Rajasthan Dasguru|Indraguru Jharkhand,Bihar Vajpayee Jharkhand,Uttar Pradesh Ojha Jharkhand,Uttar Pradesh================================== , "vinayjhaa16" <vinayjhaa16 wrote:>> I had not read the whole argument. I thank Sreenadh jee for his generous> response.> > For Shakadvipis, see> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varahamihira>> > A Hindi book Hintory of Brahmin Clan has been mentioned in the first> link, it gives the list of gotras & c among Shakadvipis.> > Legend about Narpati's death was narrated to me by a reader in Jyotisha> at KSD Sanskrit University. I will try to find out the source of this> legend.> > There were two currents of Tantra, and both were secret. One was Vedic> Tantra which included all the 7 Yamala texts used by Narpati. 48> unpublished Yaamala manuscripts are rotting in a private library of the> former queen of Darbhanga, who does not allow anyone to view them to> anyone, excepting pandits of her choice. There are a lot of Tantric> texts lying unnoticed elsewhere too. Another is anti-Vedic Tantra, like> Kularnava & c, (Vaamamaargi). Vedic versus Tantric debate relates to this> anri-Vedic Tantra, and forgets the Vedic Tantra. Vedic rites like> marriages, upanayana, etc are performed according to Panch-shalaakaa and> Sapta-shalaakaa chakras taken from Yaamala tantras.> > There was no controversy between tropical or saayana versus nirayana in> ancient India. It is in this sense that I said that these two schools> have been created by modern authors.> > Cf. http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/Ayanamsha for Indian> definition of Saayana, which is quite distinct from the modern meaning> of Tropical. I will elaborate it further.> > -VJ> > > > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > Dear Vinay ji,> > Thanks for the informative post. > > ==>> > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was> a> > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> eulogies> > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest> him> > > to be a non-brahmin?> > <==> > Thanks for correcting. Can you elaborate more about Narapati and> the> > legends related to his life - the introduction to the book Narapati> > Jayacharya provides only limitted information about him.> > ==>> > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > <==> > No, it is not so. That was just presented as a provokkative> argument> > to generate responses - thus providing more innovative info and> > knowledge sharing. I was responding to an individual who was> > redicuting both astrology and Tantra with the words - "Seriously> Tantra> > should be the next buzz word.. any takers for tantric astrology?". So> I> > would be pardened in this case I belive. > > ==>> > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read.> > <==> > The intial verse bows to Brahma, but Brahma was the supreme god of> > Jains as well. What about the use of Jains only systems like the> > Sushama-Dushama Yuga divisions etc? May be this article could give> more> > light about the line of argument:> > Chandra> > Hari/Aryabhata and Jain Tradition_IJHA_Oct_2007.pdf> >> <Chandra%20\> \> > Hari/Aryabhata%20and%20Jain%20Tradition_IJHA_Oct_2007.pdf>> >> > ==>> > > Varah> > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him> even> > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > <==> > That is interesting! Can you provide more info on this. All this> > information is totally new to me. What about the word "Kapitthala" -> is> > it his gotra name or a place name? What is the reference to the name> > "Shakaldvipi" (as mentioned as Mihira's gotra?) ?> > ==>> > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > <==> > OK - Possible.> > ==>> > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> Kashmiri> > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > <==> > Can't this be a later development? I mean - Tantrics adhering to> > Vedas (adopting and accepting Vedas) OR Vedics adopting Tantric idol> > worship, temple worship etc.> > ==>> > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> > > poke fun at nirayana system. E> > <==> > Hmm.... Argument not enough to convince - availabe proofs speak> > otherwise.> > ==>> > > Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and> other> > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology> even> > > in the nirayana school.> > <==> > Agree.> > ==>> > > Completely tropical astrology was never> > > practised in India by anyone.> > <==> > Agree - even the Tropical astrology used/mentioned in Atharvana> > Jyotisha, Atharva Parisishta etc uses fixed Nakshatra Chakra and> > therefore not purely Tropical in its strict sence. So it is better to> > use the word Sayana astrology than the word Tropical astolory.> > ==>> > > If nirayana system is completely> > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.> > <==> > Agree.> >> > Dear Vinay ji, I appreciate your knowledge and love to drink from> that> > stream more and more. The mail was very informastive and we are> > thirsty. > >> > Love and Hugs,> > Sreenadh> >> > , "vinayjhaa16"> > vinayjhaa16@ wrote:> > >> > > I found some misconceived notions in Sreenadh jee's post.> > >> > > Firstly, he wrongly believes that Narapati was a king. Narapati was> a> > > poet, desirous of a king's favour, for which he wrote the treatise ;> > > according to legends Narapati was killed by his king when Narapati's> > > predictions failed to deliver. Narapati starts his book with> eulogies> > > for the formless Bhahma and for Goddess Sarasvati, does it suggest> him> > > to be a non-brahmin?> > >> > > Secondly, Sreenadh does not regard horas written by Rishis of> > > Vasishtha, Garga, Shunaka etc clans to be works of brahmins.> > >> > > Thirdly, those who claim Aryabhatta to be a Jain have not read> > > Arbhatiya, it begins with a hymn which Sreenadh ought to read. Varah> > > Mihir was a Shakaldvipi brahmin and all Shakaldvipis worship him> even> > > today. It is true Shakaldvipis came from outside, but they had gone> > > from India, which is proven by their gotra names.> > >> > > It is wrong to assume that dasa was a shudra title. This title is> > > still adopted by religious devotees of all castes.> > >> > > Bhattolpala and Narapati were Tantrin followers, like most of> Kashmiri> > > brahmins. Majority of brahmins in Bengal and Mithila were Tantric> > > followers. But they adhered to the Vedas as well !> > >> > > Sreenadh is possessed with wrong views about nirayana and tropical> > > astrology. These are not two different schools of astrology in Vedic> > > Astrology. Such a division has been created by ignorant colonialist> > > authors, who regarded tropical system to be scientific and wanted to> > > poke fun at nirayana system. Even in the nirayana school, tropical> > > method is essential for making the bhhava-chalita, which is the> > > backbone of predictive astrology. Phenomena like sunrise, sunset,> > > ishtakaala, declensions of Sun and other planets, ascendant and> other> > > houses, etc cannot be computed at all without tropical astrology> even> > > in the nirayana school.> > >> > > I request Sreenadh jee to keep away from stereotyped notions> > > propagated by modern Westerners. Tantricism has two broad brands :> > > Vedic and anti-Vedic. Completely tropical astrology was never> > > practised in India by anyone. If nirayana system is completely> > > discarded, all strology will die out, as is happening in the West.> > >> > > -VJ> > > ============= ================= =====================> > >> > > , "Sreenadh"> > > sreesog@ wrote:> > > >> > > > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> > wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > ==>> > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > tantric astrology?> > > > <==> > > > Is it so?! I think NOT! Here is a quote from one of the 10th> > > > century authentic text on astrology named "Narapati Jayacharya".> > > >> > > > Srutvadou yamalan sapta tatha Yudha jayarnavam> > > > Kaumareem kausalam chaiva yogineejala samcharam> > > > Rakshokhram cha trimundam cha swarasimham swararnavam> > > > Bhoovalam bhairavam nama patalam swarabhairavam> > > > Tantram ranahrayam khyatham siddhantam jayapadhatim> > > > Pustakendram cha dhaukam cha sreedarsa jyotisham tatha> > > > Mantra yantranyanekani kootayudhani yani cha> > > > Tantra yuktim cha vijnaya vijnanam vatavanale> > > > Etesham sarva sastranam drishtasaro(a)hamatmana> > > > Saroddharam bhanishyami sarvasatvanukampaya> > > > (Narapati Jayacharya - 10th Century> > AD)> > > > [King Narapati tells us that he is writing this text after> referring> > to> > > > Tantric texts that deals with astrology as well such as - firstly> > the 7> > > > Yamalas viz. Brahma yamala, Vishnu Yamala, Rudra Yamala, Adi> Yamala,> > > > Skanda Yamala, Koorma Yamala, Devi Yamala and then the Tantric> texts> > > > such as - Yuddharnava Kaumari, Kausalam, Yogineejalam,> Rakshokhnam,> > > > Trimudha, Swararnavam, Bhoovala bhairava, Swarabhairava patala> etc]> > > > So do you think whether astrology dealt with in Narapati> > Jayacharya> > > > as Tantric astrology or something else?!> > > > Do you know that there is not a single Vedic Brahmin in the> long> > list> > > > of astrologers even upto 14th century AD? Feels wonder struk?? > > Yap,> > > > facts makes us wonder at times - he is some guidance.> > > >> > > > The first point to note that even though numerous quotes from> > ancient> > > > Rishi horas such as Skanda hora, Brihal Prajapatya (of Daksha> > > > Prajapati), Vasishta Hora, Kausika hora, Garga hora, Sounaka hora,> > Surya> > > > jataka etc are available - there is nothing in those available> > quotes to> > > > prove that they were brahmins. Further since these texts do not> > provide> > > > any datable info/evidence - the modern scholars do not accept or> > > > appreciate them (may be due to ignorance - I don't know). So let> us> > go> > > > by the datable and available texts.> > > > * 3rd Century AD: Spujidhwaja Hora and Meenaraja Hora (Known> as> > > > Yavana Jatakas as well) : Whether Tantric followers or Yavanas> > settled> > > > in India they were not Vedic brahmins for sure.> > > > * 5th and 6th Century: Aryabhata and Mihira. It was well> proved> > by> > > > scholars like Chandra Hari that certainly Aryabhata was a Jain,> and> > also> > > > that he was from Kerla. As far as Mihira is concerned, his> > father's> > > > name is "Aditya Dasa". The Vedic brahmins does not use a name> that> > ends> > > > in the word "Dasa" (meaning Slave, Servant, Sudra etc as per> > Sanskrit> > > > dictionaries). Some even argue that Mihira was a foreigner who> come> > and> > > > settled in India! Thus it is evident that both Aditya dasa and> > Mihira> > > > cannot be Vedic brahmins.> > > > * 9th and 10th century: Kalayana varma, the author of Saravali> > from> > > > AP, Bhattolpala the commentator of Mihira from Kashmir, Narapati> the> > > > author of Narapati Jayacharya from Malva kingdom near Ujjain.> > Kalyana> > > > Varma was a king and a Kshetriya as the name suggests - evidently> a> > not> > > > a Vedic Brahmin. Bhattolpala was a Kashmir Tantric follower -> > evidently> > > > a not a Vedic brahmin. Narapati was a Tantric follower as evident> > from> > > > the quote I provided above.> > > > * 12th century: Ballasena, the author of Adbhuta Samhita from> > > Orissa.> > > > Ballasena has clearly mentioned in his text that he is a king and> a> > > > Jain. So there is no doubt that he was not a Vedic brahmin.> > > >> > > > So what is the conclusion? The conclusion would be -> > > >> > > > * Whether NIRAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Tantric or Jain origin,> > certainly> > > > it was neither followed by or part of the Vedic cult and was never> > > > supported by Vedic Brahmins!> > > >> > > > * Whether SAYANA ASTROLOGY be of Vedic origin or not, certainly> > > it was> > > > followed by and was part of the Vedic cult and was never supported> > by> > > > Tantric tradition! [Whether it be texts dealing with Atharva> > Parisishta,> > > > Vedangas, Sanskaras, Muhuratas, Puranas, or the elaborate proofs> > > > provided texts like Nirnaya Sindhu of Kamalakara bhatta - it is> well> > > > evident that Sayana Astrology was well followed by Vedic Brahmins;> > no> > > > scarcity of proofs for the same!]> > > > Hope you may find it helpful and may comment on the same. > > > > Regards,> > > > Sreenadh> > > >> > > > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@>> > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Dear Bhadaiah ji Mallapalli ji,> > > > > ==>> > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > tantric astrology?> > > > > <==> > > > > Don't be so - not knowing! I think, may be you want to> act> > it.> > > > > > > > > Any way, here is a take - at least to let you know that there is> > scope> > > > > for a take. Hope this helps - at least to get a start. > > > > > Regards,> > > > > Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > > ======================================> > > > > Tantric Astrology - Dettatreya> > > > > Mahatantra=========================================The available> > text> > > > on> > > > > Dattatreya Maha Tantra is a small textcontaining 15 chapters and> > 160> > > > > slokas. This text is also knownas "Siromani", meaning "gem in> the> > > > head'.> > > > > The text is structured as adialogue between lord Parameswara> (lord> > > > Siva)> > > > > & Dattatreya Maharshi.Kala Tantra (Astrology) and Kala Mantra> > > > (Medicine)> > > > > are the 2 subjectsdealt with in. These are 2 knowledge streams> the> > > > > tantrics (tantricdisciples) learned with attention.Kala Mantra> is> > the> > > > > branch of Tantra that deals with the use ofmedicine related to> the> > > > > tantric worship for the secret purpose ofKilling others,> > attracting> > > > > others, making people enemy to each other,make people leave> their> > > > native> > > > > place, Magic, de-poisoning, re-establishing sexual ability etc.> > Yes,> > > > it> > > > > is a secret branch of studyand you will encounter thousands of> > > > > superstitions and stupidities aswell in such texts, along with> gem> > > > like> > > > > knowledge bits. Kala Tantra (Astrology) is the> > branch> > > > of> > > > > Tantra that dealswith the study of time for the purpose of> knowing> > > > about> > > > > the past-present-future, time of death etc. Of these two (Kala> > Tantra> > > > > and KalaMantra), Kala Mantra is the subject dealt with in the> > > > available> > > > > partof Dattatreya Mahatantra - the description of how to use> > medicine> > > > > inworship along with mantras for the purpose of Shadkarma> > > > > (Marana,Mohana, Uchadana, Sthambhana, Vidveshana, Akarshana)> etc.> > But> > > > we> > > > > canalso find some small description about Kala Tantra> (Astrology)> > > > > aswell, here and there in this text. [use of> > medicine> > > > in> > > > > worship seems to be a superstition. Buthundreds of medicinal> > plants> > > > are> > > > > mentioned in such slokas, which Ithink should have served some> > secret> > > > > purpose in the hands of trueguru and sishya of Tantric culture.> > Tantra> > > > > is a secret discipline,and so who could say what would have been> > the> > > > > real purpose and use ofthese medicines mentioned - even though> in> > the> > > > > text it is stated thatit is used for the worship like Homa etc]> > > > > Since Dattatreya Mahatantra speaks about Kala Mantra and> > KalaTantra,> > > > we> > > > > could guess that only one part of this text that dealsmainly> with> > > > Kala> > > > > Mantra is available to us and the other part thatdeals with Kala> > > > Tantra> > > > > might have been lost, in the turbulent flow oftime.> > > > > Listen to the request of Maharshi Dattatreya to lord Siva> > > > -"Approaching> > > > > lord Siva, the lord of all lords, the divine, the wellwisher of> > all> > > > > worlds, savior of devotees, whose adobe is Kailasa,humbly, with> > > > folded> > > > > hands, Dattatreya asked: Oh lord, for the benefitof the devotees> > > > please> > > > > give advice to us about Kala Mantra" In the same> > style> > > > > Dattatreya might have learned Kala Tantra(Astrology) as well> from> > lord> > > > > Siva (Maheswara). That is why we couldfind Kala Tantra> (Astrology)> > as> > > > > well, here and there in this text. Only because> > > > > Dattatreya mentions astrology here and there inthis text, can be> > > > > conclude like this? No. It is not the lone reasonfor this> > conclusion.> > > > As> > > > > mentioned earlier, "Siromani" (gem in thehead) is another name> for> > > > this> > > > > text. Which branch of study is praisedas "gem in the head" by> the> > > > > saints? Listen to this sloka in VedangaJyotisha-> > "Like> > > > > the crest of peacock, like the gem stone in the headof a cobra,> > > > > Astrology is at the head of all Vedanga sastras (like agem)"> > > > > Yes, the praise "gem in the head" usually goes to KalaTantra -> > > > > Astrology, Astronomy and the related mathematics. Because ofthis> > even> > > > > the other name "Siromani" of Dattatreya Mahatantra,indicates> that> > Kala> > > > > Tantra (Astrology) is one of the subject matterof the text. But> > that> > > > > part of the text is lost, and is not availableanymore.> > > > > There is one more point that proves this argument.> Dattatreyagives> > a> > > > > list of chapters that are present in Dattatreya Mahatantra atthe> > > > > beginning chapter of the text. Here 18 chapters are> mentioned,but> > only> > > > > the subjects mentioned in 9 chapters is available in theprinted> > text.> > > > > Chapters 1,9,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 (Total 9 chapters)seems to be> > > > missing.> > > > > This also proves that the available text ofDattatreya Mahatantra> > is an> > > > > incomplete one. If we agree up to this the> question> > > > > rises, "Is it VedangaAstrology that Dattatreya wanted to learn> > from> > > > lord> > > > > Siva?" No! As hewanted to learn medicine (Kala Mantra) that> could> > be> > > > > made use forworships aimed at purpose such as Shadkarma etc, he> > might> > > > > haverequested to teach astrology (Kala Tantra) that could be> made> > use> > > > > inShadkarma etc. Listen to his request to lord Siva-> > > > "In> > > > > this word many types of talismans, manta, tantricworships are> > present.> > > > > Many such are described in Agama, Purana, Vedaand Damara, and in> > many> > > > > other texts as well. Please advice theknowledge of Kala Tantra> > that> > > > > would help to utilize all thatknowledge (on Yentra, Mantra etc)> > 'in> > > > the> > > > > right method' forfulfilling the intentions" This is what> > Dattatreya> > > > > requests. As said earlier knowledge about> medicine> > > > (Kala> > > > > Mantra) andAstrology (Kala Tantra) that would be of help is> > Shadkarma> > > > > etc is thesubject matter of Dattatreya Mahatantra. This> knowledge> > > > > liesscattered in Agama, Purana, Veda, Damara etc. Dattatreya> > > > > isrequesting lord Siva to collect all these knowledge and> > > > > giveadvice/teach him the same 'in the right/correct method'.> > > > > Agamas are Siva Tantric texts - old as Vedas. The word> Puranahere> > > > > indicates 18 Puranas and the Sub Puranas. The word Veda> > hereindicates> > > > > the 4 Vedas and the allied literature called Brahmana,Aaranyaka,> > > > > Upanishad etc as well. They are also known as Nigama. Butfor> > Tantric> > > > > devotees the word Nigama indicates Devi Tantra. So thestatement> > > > > 'Agamokta' should be taken as indicative of both SivaTantra> > (Agama)> > > > and> > > > > Devi Tantra (Nigama) texts. Another branch ofTantra is Vishnava> > > > Tantra.> > > > > Damaras are also texts on Devi Tantra.That is, the request of> > > > Dattatreya> > > > > to lord Siva is to collect andsystematically present and teach> him> > the> > > > > vast knowledge on KalaTantra and Kala Mantra which is beneficial> > for> > > > the> > > > > purpose ofShadkarma etc, clarifying the right method.> > > > > This sloka indicates that Tantric astrology was in acorrupted> > state at> > > > > the time of Dattatreya, and even for this greatMaharshi it was> > very> > > > > difficult to separate the right and wrongstatements from the> pile.> > The> > > > > sloka also indicates that even in thatremote past Vedas and> > Puranas> > > > > borrowed the knowledge of astrology andmedicine from Tantrics> and> > > > > incorporated it in those texts! We can feel the> > pain of> > > > > the Rishi when he see that this pureancient secret knowledge is> > > > becoming> > > > > lost knowledge for the Sivadevotees. He wants it to be the> > heritage of> > > > > Siva Tantrics. Listen tothese words - "This great> > > > > knowledge (on astrology and medicine) - whichsaves one who> devotes> > > > > himself to this subject, secret, difficult toget even for davas,> > first> > > > > told by lord Siva, shines like a gem in thehead all secret> > knowledge> > > > > branches - should be taught only to aperson who is the true> > devotee of> > > > > the Guru. This knowledge should notbe imparted to persons who> does> > not> > > > > believe in acharyas, traditionand the purity of knowledge. One> > should> > > > > teach this pure knowledge toan individual who is strong willed> and> > is> > > > a> > > > > devotee of lord Sivaalone" The statement,> > "Astrology is> > > > > originated from lord Siva"(Tavagre kathitahyesha) asks for> special> > > > > attention. Even in theperiod of Prasnamarga (16th century) this> > truth> > > > > was appreciated. Eventoday traditional astrologers read> horoscope,> > or> > > > > cast prasna afterbowing to that lord of lords Maheswara (Siva).> > This> > > > is> > > > > the reason forthe importance of Dakshinamoorti (lord Siva in the> > form> > > > of> > > > > Guru, Godof knowledge) in Astrology. Lord Siva is the ultimate> > Guru> > > > > andoriginator of astrologic knowledge as per Tantric tradition.> > > > > Here I would like to mention a curious fact. If we considerthe> > concept> > > > > about the originator of astrology as per differentschools of> > > > astrology,> > > > > we will find that - Vedic School - lord Brahma> > > > > (Tropical/Sayana) Tantric School - lord Siva> > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Arsha School - lord Skanda> > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana) Jayne School - lord Brahma> > > > > (Sidereal/Nirayana)This is curious! This difference in concept> > about> > > > the> > > > > originator ofastrology, probably indicates that, these are all> > > > different> > > > > schoolsof thought in astrology, which probably originated and> > existed> > > > in> > > > > thesame era. Is it not so? Since the basic concepts (Such as> Rasi> > > > > andNakshatra) where the same, they might have got intermixed in> a> > > > > laterstage. It is also possible that, all these basic concepts> > such> > > > > asRasi and Nakshatra was originally borrowed from some> > > > othercivilization> > > > > which existed before all these cultures, such as> > theSindhu-Saraswati> > > > > civilization. Only an in-depth study and newevidences could> prove> > > > > whether any amount of truth is present in thisguess or not.> > > > > In this essay I started by discussing the astrologicalcontent in> > the> > > > > available slokas of Dattatreya Mahatantra - and so letus go back> > to> > > > > that. Most of the slokas after this discuss howmedicines could> be> > > > > utilized for Shadkarma (Kala Mantra) etc. LordSiva tells> > Dattatreya -> > > > > "Now I will speak about Kala Mantra which is beneficial forthe> > > > > upliftment of th individual. This secret knowledge (on> > medicine)which> > > > is> > > > > beneficial even in this kali yuga, I will teach you,> puttingaside> > the> > > > > knowledge of astrology"Because - "(For the> benefit> > with> > > > > medicine) It is not essential toconsider Tithi, Nakshatra,> Vreta,> > Day,> > > > > Pooja, Japa, Homa etc. Eventhe determination of an auspicious> > muhoorta> > > > > is not essential. Merelyapplying the medicine that suits well> for> > the> > > > > well being of mind andbody serves the purpose. By the use of it> > the> > > > > disease gets cured.(Medicines are invaluable, and their effect> > > > > mysterious. Because ofthis I will explain to you, how to use> these> > > > > medicines in Shadkarmaworships)" With this advice> > lord> > > > > Siva starts to speak about Kala Mantra(Medicine). Since those> > slokas> > > > are> > > > > not related to astrology, I am notdiscussing them here. If> anyone> > is> > > > > interested bye and read theprinted text of Dattatreya Mahatantra> > to> > > > know> > > > > more about that. But the last chapter of the> > available> > > > > printed text (chapter15) deals with Kala Tantra (Astrology). The> > > > > determination of the timeof death is the subject discussed. Siva> > said:> > > > > "Oh, Maha yogi, Dattatreya Mahamune, for the benefit of> > humanbeings I> > > > > will tell to you about death time determination. Listen" Dwadesa> > dala> > > > > chakrastham Mrityukalam cha veekshitamChaitradi masa sankhayani> > > > > likhyante dwadese daleMeshadi rasaya sthapya suryadi likhyate> > > > > grahaHJanma riksha janma rasim veekshante mrityukarakeSurya> vedhe> > > > > manastapam budha soukhyam pravartateYatrayam teertha jeeve cha> > chandre> > > > > stri sukha sambadaHBhrigu vedhe rajya labhaH mase mase> vicharayete> > > > > (Dattatreya Mahatantra)"From the Rasichakra with 12 petals, we> can> > > > have> > > > > an idea bout thetime of death. For that first write the numbers> of> > > > > months startingfrom the month of Chaitra in each petal. In each> of> > the> > > > > petal placesigns starting from Aries. Now, as per current> > planetary> > > > > positionwrite down the names of Grahas such as Sun, Moon etc in> > the> > > > > Rasichakra. If the Mrityu Karaka Graha (Saturn?) aspects> (Drishti)> > > > > theLagna (Lagna star?) or Moon sign then it is death time. If> > Vedha> > > > > ispresent, then for sun - sadness, for Mercury - happiness,> > forJupiter> > > > -> > > > > pilgrimage, for Moon - happiness from sexual acts withwomen, for> > Venus> > > > -> > > > > gain of land results. This type of prediction canbe done every> > month"> > > > > Some interprets that the Sripati's system of Gochara-Vedha> > ismentioned> > > > > here (?!). They also argue that if Nakshatra Vedha and RasiVedha> > is> > > > > present at the same time then for sure it is time for KalaMrityu> > > > > (Ultimate/Sure chance of death) (?!) But this> sloka> > was> > > > a> > > > > real problem to me and I just gotconfused. Why? I will> explain.(1)> > > > > Mention of months starting from> > > > > Chitra---------> > Why it> > > > > is said that after drawing the Rasi chakra we shouldwrite down> the> > > > > numbers corresponding to the months starting fromChaitra in each> > > > square> > > > > of the Rasi chakra? Did he mean to say that -> > Chaitra> > > > => > > > > Mesha (Aries) Visakha = Vrishabha (Taurus) etc ?> > > > > If so does it mean that the starting point of Aries should> > > > becalculated,> > > > > taking Chitra star as a reference? That is, as if thepoint 180> deg> > > > away> > > > > from Chitra star is the starting point of Aries orthe like?(2)> > Mrityu> > > > > Karaka Graha----------------------- Is Saturn> > mentioned> > > > > with the word Mrityu Karaka? If so, thewordings "Janma riksha> > janma> > > > > rasim veekshante sanaischare", directlymentioning Saturn would> > have> > > > been> > > > > enough. Then why the author choseto omit directly mentioning> > Saturn> > > > and> > > > > instead used the word MritruKaraka (Significator of death) ?> > > > > If not only Saturn but also other planets should beconsidered,> > then> > > > what> > > > > other house lords and planets we shouldconsider?(3) Riksha -> > Nakshatra> > > > > or sign------------------------------ The word> > Riksha> > > > has> > > > > got 2 meanings - Nakshatra and sign. Withthe word Janma Riksha> > > > > Dattatreya Maharshi is mentioning LagnaNakshatra, Lagna sign,> Moon> > > > > Nakshatra or Moon sign? If we think thathere the word Riksha> > > > represents> > > > > both Nakshatra and Sign, then is itthat we should consider both> > > > > Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedha for deathtime determination? How> to> > > > > calculate Nakshatra Vedha and Rasi Vedhain planetary context?(4)> > Vedha> > > > > and the related prediction---> > > > > Here if Vedha is present for beneficial planets, then it issaid> > that> > > > > results also would be beneficial!! This is contradictory tothe> > Vedha> > > > > concept of Sripati. As per Tantric astrology how many typesof> > Vedha is> > > > > present? How to calculate Nakshatra Vedha, Rasi Vedha andGraha> > Vedha> > > > in> > > > > the planetary context? What are the rules to beobserved while> > > > predicting> > > > > with this type Vedha concept?(5) Transit or> > > > > Gochara---------------------- This Gochara-Vedha> > system> > > > > of prediction can be used forprediction every month (Mase mase> > > > > vicharayet) says Dattatreya. Did hemeant to say that Transit> > should be> > > > > considered for the determinationof death time? If so why he> > avoided> > > > > mentioning the transit predictionfor Mars, Saturn, Rahu and> > Ketu?(6)> > > > > Vedha and Tantric Astrology-------------------------------> > > > > Probably Sripati who lived in 10th century AD, is the personwho> > > > > introduced the concept of Vedha in astrology. But here> weencounter> > a> > > > > similar concept in Dattatreya Mahatantra as well! Whatshould we> > > > observe> > > > > from it? Should we think that Dattatreya Tantraoriginated after> > > > Sripati> > > > > of 10th century AD? Or should we think thatSripati borrowed the> > > > concept> > > > > of Vedha from Tantric astrologyespecially from Dattatreya> Tantra?> > > > > No. I don't have answers to such doubts. If we want to> findanswers> > to> > > > > the above or similar questions, an in-depth study of> theastrology> > > > > mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) is a must.> > > > > For simplifying the study of ancient astrology, we canclassify> > them> > > > into> > > > > several categories:-(i) Astrology in Sindhu-Saraswati period> > > > > (Sindhu-SaraswatiAstrology)(ii) Astrology mentioned Vedas and> > allied> > > > > literature (Vedic Astrology)(iii) Astrology mentioned Epics (Epic> > > > > Astrology)(iv) Astrology mentioned in Puranas (Puranic> > Astrology)(v)> > > > > Astrology mentioned in Tantric texts (Tantric Astrology) - Itis> > the> > > > > biggest treasure, thousands of unexplored texts (and a> > wholesecret> > > > > tradition) waiting for us Astrology of> > Arsha> > > > > school which is scattered in variousancient astrological texts.> > This> > > > is> > > > > a well accepted stream in Indianastrology starting with Skanda> > Hora,> > > > > Brihal Prajapatyam, VasishtaHora, Kousika Hora etc. The acharyas> > in> > > > this> > > > > school are great Rishislike Skanda, Daksha, Vasishta, Kousika,> > Sounaka> > > > > etc, and theauthentic Sidhantic text 'Surya Sidhanta'. (Arsha> > > > > Astrology)[i am specially interested in this stream of> > thought](vii)> > > > > Astrology of Jayne school which is scattered in variousancient> > > > > astrological texts. This is a well accepted stream in> > Indianastrology> > > > > starting with Garga Hora, Surya Prajchapti etc. Theacharyas in> > this> > > > > school are Garga, Rishputra etc. (Jayne Astrology)[Yes, of> course> > > > there> > > > > are other streams of thought as well likeYavana and Parasara.> But> > > > books> > > > > on that them is not yet lostcompletely, and that is why I am not> > > > > including them here on the abovelist]There is not even a single> > > > > authentic text available that tries toexplore the depths of any> of> > the> > > > > categories mentioned above! There isa vast area available for> > > > research!> > > > > They are requesting tous, "please, please, come forward and> reveal> > the> > > > > knowledge wepreserved for you..." All this ancient knowledge on> > > > > astrology arestill behind the dark curtain of half forgotten,> > > > unexplored> > > > > literaryhistory. This vast knowledge is praying to us,> > > > > "TamasomaJyotirgamaya...". Yes, there is a large amount of work> > > > pending,> > > > > andis seeking our immediate attention. All these knowledge is> > > > > meditatingthere inside the dark cave and is ready to shower> their> > > > > secretsbefore the true seekers of knowledge. Those who are truly> > > > > inquisitivecan start their search from here. Let us begin our> > search> > > > for> > > > > thehidden treasures of astrological knowledge. Enjoy! It is> > child's> > > > > play-and the vast treasure house waiting for us, to be explored!> > Let> > > > > usbegin search and present the valuables we find, before the> all,> > > > forthe> > > > > benefit of posterity! And Enjoy the fun of> learning!Love,Sreenadh> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ======================================> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > hinducivilization , "Bhadraiah> Mallampalli"> > > > > vaidix@ wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Jit Majumdar,> > > > > >> > > > > > >There also, we have no differences and conflicts of interest.> > That> > > > is> > > > > > >my point also – that people should learn to give> > *everything*> > > > its> > > > > > >due. Not only the `vedas'.> > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks for spending your valuable time to post your reply.> > > > > >> > > > > > "Veda" is supposed to be the structured knowledge. it is the> > > > > > equivalent of "papers" published by scientists or> > mathematicians. A> > > > > > published paper documents knowledge or at least as claimed by> > the> > > > > > author. The "journal" is the compilation of such articles and> > can be> > > > > > called "veda" in the modern sense.> > > > > >> > > > > > This does not mean that other forms of scientific documents> are> > not> > > > > > facts. They are all unpublished papers or uninterpreted> results> > (we> > > > > > call them tantras, shastras, smrtis and by other names. To> > discard> > > > > > them as useless is a fatal mistake. To say that the> unpublished> > > > > > papers (tantras) originated from published papsers (veda) is> > stupid.> > > > > > It is like saying Einstein derived his theory of relativity> from> > > > > > Newton's works.> > > > > >> > > > > > Now we are in the unfortunate situation wherein we don't> > understand> > > > > > even 0.0001% of the Veda that we have, not to mention the> total> > > > Vedic> > > > > > corpus we have is less than 1% of what originally existed> (well,> > > > > > except that intonations and at least one recension of each> veda> > are> > > > > > 100% preserved). As such we can classify the existing veda> > > > > > as "tantra" because we can hardly understand anything in it.> > > > > >> > > > > > Seriously Tantra should be the next buzz word.. any takers for> > > > > > tantric astrology? Sorry I don't mean to make a comedy out of> > > > > > it. "Vedic" astrology is beyond visibility for now, and> > > > inconceivable> > > > > > until 1. Astrology is proven as a science and some universal> > > > > > principles extracted from it; and 2. Veda is interpreted> > completely> > > > > > and 3. The interpretation of veda proper agrees with claim of> > > > > > astrology as a veda.> > > > > >> > > > > > Bhadraiah> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > >> > >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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