Fwd: [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Astro signs...) - Imp

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " Sreenadh " <sreesog wrote:

 

 

Dear RNI ji,

==>

6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in his

long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similar to

Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as

understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates he

has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are in

no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this

book to the file section.

<==

What about " Atharva Parisishta " ? I wonder why it was not mentioned by

you! The text is available. A small note on Atharva Parisishta is given

below -

======================================

 

Atharava Parisishta

 

This text is currently available in Devanagari Script without

commentary, published by Chaukhamba Orientalia, Bangalow Road, Near

Kamala Nagar, New Delhi.

 

As the name suggests the word `Atharva Parisishta' refers

to `rudiments of Atharva Veda'; rudiments that are part of the original

Atharva Veda text or ancient vedic quotes that complements the subjects

dealt within Atharva Veda in one way or the other. This text is ancient

and authentic.

 

For the availability of this ancient text in printed form,

we are indebted to two eminent western Sanskrit philologists – Dr.

Bolling and Dr. Negelein, who published this text in Roman script in AD

1909. The original manuscript of this text is available in various

manuscript libraries in India and abroad, but none in print except the

copy printed in Roman script by Dr. Bolling and Nr. Negelein. The

current rendering of the same in Devanagari script is done by Ram Kumar

Rai and published by Chaukhamba Orientalia.

 

Similar to a Samhita text like Brihat Samhita, this text

deals with numerous subjects related and unrelated to astrology. Some of

the chapter names will give an idea about the vast amount of

astrological info present in this text. To quote some chapter names

– Nakshatra Kalpa (Stellar astrology), Vrishotsarga, Indra

Mahotsava, Sambhara Lakshana, Arani Lakshana, Yajna patra Lakshana, Vedi

Lakshana, Kundha Lakshana, Samit Lakshana, Sruva Lakshana, Hasta

Lakshana (Palmistry), Jwala Lakshana (Omens by Flame), Chandra

Pratipadikam, Graha Yuddha (Planetary war), Graha Samgraha (about

planets), Rahu chara (Transit of Rahu), Ketu chara (Transit of Ketu),

Kurma Vibhaga (geographical astrology), Dig daha Lakshana, Nirkhata

Lakshana, Nakshatra Grahotpata Lakshana (Omens by Nakshatras and

planets), Utpata Lakshanam, Atbhuta Santi etc to name a few.

 

I suggest those who know Sanskrit to get a copy of this

ancient that is a solid proof for the fact that Vedas (especially

Atharva Veda) does deal with Predictive astrology in detail.

 

================

 

Hope this clarifies the doubt of many about the existence of

predictive astrology in Vedas. The following 4 texts can serve as the

basic background for the reconstruction of ancient Vedic astrology that

bases itself on the movement of Tropical Zodiac against the fixed

Nakshatra Chakra.

1) Atharva Parisishta

2) Atharva Vedanga Jyotisha

3) Atharva Vedeeya Jyotisha

4) Atharvana Jyotish (Atma Jyotisha)

An in-depth study of all these 4 texts clarifies that , the subject

dealt within all these texts are consistent and is in tune with the

Atharva Vedic tradition of Stellar Tropical astrology. These texts are

enough to provide sufficient background to provide and facilitate the

re-construction of ancient Stellar Tropical Vedic astrology. Coupled

with the bits of available in other Vedanga Jyotisha texts, Vedic and

Epic literature - now anyone can try re-constructing this ancient branch

of astrology.

 

Apart from the following points directly connected to Vedas also

should be noted -

* Atharva veda provides a quote in which it is said that - " The native

took birth in Moola Nakshatra may distroy his clan and also that the

native took birth in Jyeshta Nakshatra may cause the death of his elder

brother " . This is proof for the direct presence of astrology in Atharva

Veda.

* Vedas mention about " Good and Bad " Muhura. The classification of

Muhurta into good or bad clearly indicates the existance of predictive

astrology.

* Rig Veda and Atharva Veda speak about the " Good and Bad " nature of

Nakshatras and prays let such and such Nakshatra bring us good results

etc. Connecting Nakshatras with the " possible results " is a clear proof

for the existence of predictive astrology in Vedic period.

 

The Kaulian argument is that the mention of all the planets are not

available in Vedas. I wonder what is his opinion about Vedic sages! He

must be considering them as fools, but still he agues in favor of

reinstalling a calendar followed by them! I wonder why?! Any way that is

another point, here goes the proof regarding the knowledge of the Vedic

sages about the planets. Check this article at:

hinducivilizationVedic%20Proof%20of\

%20Planets.pdf <../../../..Vedic%20Proof%20of%20Planets.pdf>

* So the question is by supporting such baseless Kaulian arguments,

are we upgrading or degrading the ancient indian culture?

* If someone with a vested interest with a missionary zeal starts

arguing in favor of xian western direction - should we support it or

not?

* If someone resorts to mere name calling and blaming of the very

scholers such as the Sages (Parasara, Lomasa, Vasishta etc), Mihira,

Aryabhata and numerous others who contributed to indian culture -

should we accept and praise it or to understand the vested interests

involved?

* If someone starts arguing that Krishnashtami, Rama Navama,

Sivaratrit etc are all baseless since they are all not mentioned in the

Vedas - we should appreciate it or not? If some one argue that all

festivals except the four which are based on 4 cardinal points such as

solstices and equinoxes, should be rejected - should we praise it or see

the xian vested interest involved?

 

So the base question would be – are we wise enough to see the

vested xian interest behind the missionary mission of people with vested

interest or not or do we foolishly succumb to their agenda?!!!

 

Regards,

Sreenadh

 

 

hinducivilization , " aareni " <aareni@> wrote:

>

>

> Dear Moderator,

> Thanks for your kind words. I have Responded to Kaul several times on

IC

> and HC and I don't like to write the same things again and again.

About

> Phala Jyotisha, horoscope, greek influence etc the same stuff is

> recycled. I don't read many of the posts by certain members, because I

> know what they like to say. It is a waste of time telling the same

thing

> again and again. However bowing to your request I am reposting a

message

> (giving my views about Kaul's posts) I wrote on 26 Sept, 2007. About

his

> opponents' views I hardly find anything solid to write about. As far

as

> Mr. Jai Maharaj's posts are concerned I don't respond to his after he

> threatened me with libel! Not that I took it seriously, but this made

me

> understand his level of knowledge of Sanskrit and Jyotisha to be

> unworthy of response. Those who like to discuss should read the

original

> books, previous posts on the subject and then comment. At present what

> is happening on the list is mostly a street fight. The loudest man

> thinks he has won. But the silent majority knows that this is not

true!

>

> Here is my HC #21562:

>

> Dear Sri Kaul and members of HC: I seem to have hurt the feelings of

Sri

> Kaul. If yes, I am sorry; that was not my intention at all. In any

> case this would be my last post on the agenda driven posts of " Vedic

> Astrology " of Sri Avatar Krishna Kaul. (AKK for short, with no

> disrespect shown). What has been posted by AKK is all

> `CharvitacharvaNam' and I am not interested in wasting my time going

> point by point. Instead of responding crisply to the two points I had

> raised he has made a overkill! I concede I am not capable of saying

the

> same points again and again like missionaries with an agenda to

convert

> the opinions of the listeners. This group is made of diverse people

with

> varied interests. Some overlap with mine and many do not. I am sure

this

> applies to other members also. I picked up selectively only two

points

> from the Rotary talk of AKK. That is right! Because IMHO, in a

> discussion we need to do only that. I have previously appreciated his

> posts when they started appearing for the first time or at least when

I

> first came across them. My agreement with him has been largely limited

> to

>

> 1) Winter solstice (UttarayaNa puNyakaala) is on December 23rd and

not

> on January 14th. The present day almanacs have to correct this. I have

> also presented epigraphic evidences that ~500 or 1000 years back it

was

> celebrated on nearly the correct day. The mistake seems to have

started

> in the 19th century or thereabout. If corrected this of course changes

a

> few other dates like Summer solstice and the equinoctial days, which

> have come down to us as part of our common `Vedic' ancestry.

>

> 2) There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedic

literature

> and in the Mahabharata. The single verse much cited by astrologers in

> the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation.

>

> Differences with AKK are on the following:

>

> 3) About the knowledge of planets in the Vedas, the information is

> equivocal. Sometimes it appears they knew, sometimes not. In such

cases

> it is better to present both the sides of the story and leave the

> judgment to the members/readers. Same is the case with the twelve

Rashi

> divisions. To keep this post short I like to just say that RV samhita

> has hymns which hint at animal like symbols in the sky. See

particularly

> the not well understood `Jemana' in the 10th Mandala. This certainly

> does not prove that Vedic people knew Horoscopes much less that they

> practiced the type of modern astrology sold on our streets today.

There

> are other such points but the above is sufficient.

>

> 4) The word " vedic " has been used and abused in various ways in the

> English language. Previously on the IC list there was a debate on

" Vedic

> Mathematics " of Swami Bharati Krishna Tirtha. Some argue that it is

not

> Vedic because the text of the learned Swami is not found in any Vedic

> literature known to us. Also there is an Indian English nuance here.

> What the Swami seems to claim is that it is " Vaidika GaNita " which

> makes perfect sense in Sanskrit. It is only related to Vedas in some

> broad sense (Vedasya idam = vaidikam). This may be just an emotional

or

> spiritual connection as for an intuitive knowledge. Hence definitions

of

> technical words are very important before theories are proposed or

> denounced. In relation to astrology or Phala-jyotisha what I have

been

> pointing out is that the roots are traceable to the Vedas. There is no

> contradiction in my views posted on different dates. Belief in

> astrology, even if its roots are in the Vedas is a different issue.

When

> I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions, it does not

> matter whether I believe the predictions or not. I am not agenda

driven

> either way. To put it more picturesquely, I neither hunt with the

> hounds nor run with the hares.

>

> 5) There is a more subtle point in the above. Vedas and Vedanga as a

> collection of texts are different from " Vedic culture " although

> connected closely. No one can claim that all the Vedic literature was

> created in one day or one year or in one generation. But in

discussions

> many telescope their historical perception and exhibit their myopia in

> not understanding the evolution of the cultural traits over the

> millennia. If the names of the planets do not appear in Samhitas in

the

> way we use them now, how does it prove that Vedic people did not know

> the planets? To the best of my knowledge our common Vedic tradition

> holds that many Vedic shakhas and texts are lost over time. This will

> not mean that the culture is also forgotten and lost. It would be

living

> in various forms, myths, rituals, beliefs etc. And our common culture

> has been varied and pluralistic. There was a time (and place) in India

> when Vedas were treated to be " only Three " (Thrayee). But now we do

> include AtharvaNa Veda without any reservation. I pointed out AV

> Parishista names the planets, (no Rashis) gives Puja vidhana (for

> remedial measures) which presupposes malefic effects of certain

planets.

> If AKK finds this text not to his liking and thinks it is fabricated

it

> is his opinion. He has presented no proof or evidence for his claim

> other than making fervent verbal appeals to that effect. I want HC

> members to independently read the text and draw their own conclusions.

> The text being published in Germany does not decrease its claim for

> being `Vaidika'. As is well known many manuscripts were shipped out of

> India and this is one among them. Alberuni's ignorance of this text

> does not prove anything to me.

>

> 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in his

> long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similar

to

> Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as

> understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates

he

> has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are

in

> no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this

> book to the file section. AKK is fond of quoting and citing SB

Dikshit.

> Let me quote SBD here about Atharva Jyotisha (Bharatiya Jyotish

shastra

> Pt.I, English Transl. by RV Vaidya pp97-100).

>

> " Let us now turn to... AJ. This consists of 14 Ch and 162 verses.

> …..As we proceed further on we come across instructions about

duties

> to be performed on particular Muhurtas….The fourth chapter gives a

> list of KaraNas (of thithis) with their names like those of our

present

> times……These verses discuss the auspicious……nature of

planets

> depending, of course on the strength of moon;….The following verse

> gives names of seven days in a week calling the planets as `Lords of

> days.'….After 100 verses one comes across…which is followed by

> 62 more verses. This portion contains the seeds of predictional

section

> of astrology Jaataka… It is clear….this is not so ancient as

Rk

> or Yajur-J, still the consideration …that if the Meshadi Rashis

> would have been in vogue ….they would have occurred in the text,

> leads one to accept AJ is pretty old……This work describes a

system

> of astrology, very akin to and not quite different from the one which

is

> based on 12 rashis….No doubt can be entertained…that this

system

> of astrology originated and …independently developed in our

> country.. It seems probable that although the Hindus are said to have

> borrowed the 12 rashis from foreigners, they developed….already

> known lines of astrology related to nakshatras " .

>

> I rest with this.

>

> RNI

>

> hinducivilization , " Ravi " ravi7640@ wrote:

> >

> > " aareni " is a respected scholar contributing to our group and we

> certainly

> > give weightage to his views. Leaving aside the charges and counter

> charges

> > (a la breaking code etc) being bandied about here, could you

sir

> give

> > your considered opinion analysing Kauls view point and his

opponent's

> to us

> > laymen so that we get a third opinion which is unbiased?

> > Moderator

> > -

> > " aareni " aareni@

> > hinducivilization

> > Friday, January 02, 2009 7:52 AM

> > [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...)

> >

> >

> > > Interested members including the moderator may read the postings

on

> > > the subject " WAVES,India- lecture on Astrology - a report " during

> > > march 21, 2007-April 4,2007 on this list(#13535). The same so

called

> > > Vedic Astrologer threatened me with libel eventhough there was

> > > nothing personal and nothing abusive in my postings. Perhaps his

> > > clintele got reduced and hence the uncivilized threat was thrown

at

> > > me in this group dedicated to Hindu civilization. This is typical

of

> > > Delhi Govt.culture (no offence meant). When you can not defend

> > > yourself logically, cry loudly. Better still, write a complaint

> > > letter to the HoD with copies to President of India, PM,

> RM....asking

> > > for action. Make the hapless fellow waste his time in giving

> > > explanations!! Offence appears to be the best form of defence for

> > > some people.

> > > May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate the

Vedic

> > > Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as Makara

Sankranti)

> > > to be observed on 14th January.

> > >

> > > RNI

> > >

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

Dear Sreenadhji,

 

To my knowledge an english translation of Atharva Parisishta is available.

 

Regards,

 

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya--- On Sun, 1/4/09, Sreenadh <sreesog wrote:

Sreenadh <sreesog Fwd: [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...) - Imp Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 8:57 PM

 

 

hinducivilization, "Sreenadh" <sreesog > wrote:Dear RNI ji,==>6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in hislong posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similar toRik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text asunderstood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates hehas fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are inno way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload thisbook to the file section.<==What about "Atharva Parisishta"? I wonder why it was not mentioned byyou! The text is available. A small note on Atharva Parisishta is givenbelow -============ ========= ========= ========Atharava ParisishtaThis text is currently available in Devanagari

Script withoutcommentary, published by Chaukhamba Orientalia, Bangalow Road, NearKamala Nagar, New Delhi.As the name suggests the word `Atharva Parisishta' refersto `rudiments of Atharva Veda'; rudiments that are part of the originalAtharva Veda text or ancient vedic quotes that complements the subjectsdealt within Atharva Veda in one way or the other. This text is ancientand authentic.For the availability of this ancient text in printed form,we are indebted to two eminent western Sanskrit philologists – Dr.Bolling and Dr. Negelein, who published this text in Roman script in AD1909. The original manuscript of this text is available in variousmanuscript libraries in India and abroad, but none in print except thecopy printed in Roman script by Dr. Bolling and Nr. Negelein. Thecurrent rendering of the same in Devanagari script is done by Ram KumarRai and published by Chaukhamba

Orientalia.Similar to a Samhita text like Brihat Samhita, this textdeals with numerous subjects related and unrelated to astrology. Some ofthe chapter names will give an idea about the vast amount ofastrological info present in this text. To quote some chapter names– Nakshatra Kalpa (Stellar astrology), Vrishotsarga, IndraMahotsava, Sambhara Lakshana, Arani Lakshana, Yajna patra Lakshana, VediLakshana, Kundha Lakshana, Samit Lakshana, Sruva Lakshana, HastaLakshana (Palmistry), Jwala Lakshana (Omens by Flame), ChandraPratipadikam, Graha Yuddha (Planetary war), Graha Samgraha (aboutplanets), Rahu chara (Transit of Rahu), Ketu chara (Transit of Ketu),Kurma Vibhaga (geographical astrology), Dig daha Lakshana, NirkhataLakshana, Nakshatra Grahotpata Lakshana (Omens by Nakshatras andplanets), Utpata Lakshanam, Atbhuta Santi etc to name a few.I suggest those who know Sanskrit to get a copy of

thisancient that is a solid proof for the fact that Vedas (especiallyAtharva Veda) does deal with Predictive astrology in detail.============ ====Hope this clarifies the doubt of many about the existence ofpredictive astrology in Vedas. The following 4 texts can serve as thebasic background for the reconstruction of ancient Vedic astrology thatbases itself on the movement of Tropical Zodiac against the fixedNakshatra Chakra.1) Atharva Parisishta2) Atharva Vedanga Jyotisha3) Atharva Vedeeya Jyotisha4) Atharvana Jyotish (Atma Jyotisha)An in-depth study of all these 4 texts clarifies that , the subjectdealt within all these texts are consistent and is in tune with theAtharva Vedic tradition of Stellar Tropical astrology. These texts areenough to provide sufficient background to provide and facilitate there-construction of ancient Stellar Tropical Vedic astrology. Coupledwith

the bits of available in other Vedanga Jyotisha texts, Vedic andEpic literature - now anyone can try re-constructing this ancient branchof astrology.Apart from the following points directly connected to Vedas alsoshould be noted -* Atharva veda provides a quote in which it is said that - "The nativetook birth in Moola Nakshatra may distroy his clan and also that thenative took birth in Jyeshta Nakshatra may cause the death of his elderbrother". This is proof for the direct presence of astrology in AtharvaVeda.* Vedas mention about "Good and Bad" Muhura. The classification ofMuhurta into good or bad clearly indicates the existance of predictiveastrology.* Rig Veda and Atharva Veda speak about the "Good and Bad" nature ofNakshatras and prays let such and such Nakshatra bring us good resultsetc. Connecting Nakshatras with the "possible results" is a clear prooffor the existence of

predictive astrology in Vedic period.The Kaulian argument is that the mention of all the planets are notavailable in Vedas. I wonder what is his opinion about Vedic sages! Hemust be considering them as fools, but still he agues in favor ofreinstalling a calendar followed by them! I wonder why?! Any way that isanother point, here goes the proof regarding the knowledge of the Vedicsages about the planets. Check this article at:http://groups. / group/hinducivil ization Vedic%20Proof% 20of\%20Planets.pdf <../../../.. Vedic% 20Proof%20of% 20Planets. pdf>* So the question is by supporting such baseless Kaulian arguments,are we upgrading or degrading the ancient indian culture?* If someone with a vested interest with a missionary zeal startsarguing in

favor of xian western direction - should we support it ornot?* If someone resorts to mere name calling and blaming of the veryscholers such as the Sages (Parasara, Lomasa, Vasishta etc), Mihira,Aryabhata and numerous others who contributed to indian culture -should we accept and praise it or to understand the vested interestsinvolved?* If someone starts arguing that Krishnashtami, Rama Navama,Sivaratrit etc are all baseless since they are all not mentioned in theVedas - we should appreciate it or not? If some one argue that allfestivals except the four which are based on 4 cardinal points such assolstices and equinoxes, should be rejected - should we praise it or seethe xian vested interest involved?So the base question would be – are we wise enough to see thevested xian interest behind the missionary mission of people with vestedinterest or not or do we foolishly succumb to their

agenda?!!!Regards,Sreenadhhinducivilization, "aareni" <aareni@> wrote:>>> Dear Moderator,> Thanks for your kind words. I have Responded to Kaul several times onIC> and HC and I don't like to write the same things again and again.About> Phala Jyotisha, horoscope, greek influence etc the same stuff is> recycled. I don't read many of the posts by certain members, because I> know what they like to say. It is a waste of time telling the samething> again and again. However bowing to your request I am reposting amessage> (giving my views about Kaul's posts) I wrote on 26 Sept, 2007. Abouthis> opponents' views I hardly find anything solid to write about. As faras> Mr. Jai Maharaj's posts are concerned I don't respond to

his after he> threatened me with libel! Not that I took it seriously, but this mademe> understand his level of knowledge of Sanskrit and Jyotisha to be> unworthy of response. Those who like to discuss should read theoriginal> books, previous posts on the subject and then comment. At present what> is happening on the list is mostly a street fight. The loudest man> thinks he has won. But the silent majority knows that this is nottrue!>> Here is my HC #21562:>> Dear Sri Kaul and members of HC: I seem to have hurt the feelings ofSri> Kaul. If yes, I am sorry; that was not my intention at all. In any> case this would be my last post on the agenda driven posts of "Vedic> Astrology" of Sri Avatar Krishna Kaul. (AKK for short, with no> disrespect shown). What has been posted by AKK is all> `CharvitacharvaNam' and I am not interested in

wasting my time going> point by point. Instead of responding crisply to the two points I had> raised he has made a overkill! I concede I am not capable of sayingthe> same points again and again like missionaries with an agenda toconvert> the opinions of the listeners. This group is made of diverse peoplewith> varied interests. Some overlap with mine and many do not. I am surethis> applies to other members also. I picked up selectively only twopoints> from the Rotary talk of AKK. That is right! Because IMHO, in a> discussion we need to do only that. I have previously appreciated his> posts when they started appearing for the first time or at least whenI> first came across them. My agreement with him has been largely limited> to>> 1) Winter solstice (UttarayaNa puNyakaala) is on December 23rd andnot> on January 14th. The present

day almanacs have to correct this. I have> also presented epigraphic evidences that ~500 or 1000 years back itwas> celebrated on nearly the correct day. The mistake seems to havestarted> in the 19th century or thereabout. If corrected this of course changesa> few other dates like Summer solstice and the equinoctial days, which> have come down to us as part of our common `Vedic' ancestry.>> 2) There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedicliterature> and in the Mahabharata. The single verse much cited by astrologers in> the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation.>> Differences with AKK are on the following:>> 3) About the knowledge of planets in the Vedas, the information is> equivocal. Sometimes it appears they knew, sometimes not. In suchcases> it is better to present both the sides of the story and leave

the> judgment to the members/readers. Same is the case with the twelveRashi> divisions. To keep this post short I like to just say that RV samhita> has hymns which hint at animal like symbols in the sky. Seeparticularly> the not well understood `Jemana' in the 10th Mandala. This certainly> does not prove that Vedic people knew Horoscopes much less that they> practiced the type of modern astrology sold on our streets today.There> are other such points but the above is sufficient.>> 4) The word "vedic" has been used and abused in various ways in the> English language. Previously on the IC list there was a debate on"Vedic> Mathematics" of Swami Bharati Krishna Tirtha. Some argue that it isnot> Vedic because the text of the learned Swami is not found in any Vedic> literature known to us. Also there is an Indian English nuance here.> What the

Swami seems to claim is that it is "Vaidika GaNita" which> makes perfect sense in Sanskrit. It is only related to Vedas in some> broad sense (Vedasya idam = vaidikam). This may be just an emotionalor> spiritual connection as for an intuitive knowledge. Hence definitionsof> technical words are very important before theories are proposed or> denounced. In relation to astrology or Phala-jyotisha what I havebeen> pointing out is that the roots are traceable to the Vedas. There is no> contradiction in my views posted on different dates. Belief in> astrology, even if its roots are in the Vedas is a different issue.When> I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions, it does not> matter whether I believe the predictions or not. I am not agendadriven> either way. To put it more picturesquely, I neither hunt with the> hounds nor run with the

hares.>> 5) There is a more subtle point in the above. Vedas and Vedanga as a> collection of texts are different from "Vedic culture" although> connected closely. No one can claim that all the Vedic literature was> created in one day or one year or in one generation. But indiscussions> many telescope their historical perception and exhibit their myopia in> not understanding the evolution of the cultural traits over the> millennia. If the names of the planets do not appear in Samhitas inthe> way we use them now, how does it prove that Vedic people did not know> the planets? To the best of my knowledge our common Vedic tradition> holds that many Vedic shakhas and texts are lost over time. This will> not mean that the culture is also forgotten and lost. It would beliving> in various forms, myths, rituals, beliefs etc. And our common culture> has

been varied and pluralistic. There was a time (and place) in India> when Vedas were treated to be "only Three" (Thrayee). But now we do> include AtharvaNa Veda without any reservation. I pointed out AV> Parishista names the planets, (no Rashis) gives Puja vidhana (for> remedial measures) which presupposes malefic effects of certainplanets.> If AKK finds this text not to his liking and thinks it is fabricatedit> is his opinion. He has presented no proof or evidence for his claim> other than making fervent verbal appeals to that effect. I want HC> members to independently read the text and draw their own conclusions.> The text being published in Germany does not decrease its claim for> being `Vaidika'. As is well known many manuscripts were shipped out of> India and this is one among them. Alberuni's ignorance of this text> does not prove anything to

me.>> 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in his> long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similarto> Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as> understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dateshe> has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ arein> no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this> book to the file section. AKK is fond of quoting and citing SBDikshit.> Let me quote SBD here about Atharva Jyotisha (Bharatiya Jyotishshastra> Pt.I, English Transl. by RV Vaidya pp97-100).>> "Let us now turn to... AJ. This consists of 14 Ch and 162 verses.> …..As we proceed further on we come across instructions aboutduties> to be performed on particular Muhurtas….The fourth chapter gives a> list of

KaraNas (of thithis) with their names like those of ourpresent> times……These verses discuss the auspicious……nature ofplanets> depending, of course on the strength of moon;….The following verse> gives names of seven days in a week calling the planets as `Lords of> days.'….After 100 verses one comes across…which is followed by> 62 more verses. This portion contains the seeds of predictionalsection> of astrology Jaataka… It is clear….this is not so ancient asRk> or Yajur-J, still the consideration …that if the Meshadi Rashis> would have been in vogue ….they would have occurred in the text,> leads one to accept AJ is pretty old……This work describes asystem> of astrology, very akin to and not quite different from the one whichis> based on 12 rashis….No doubt can be entertained…that thissystem> of astrology originated

and …independently developed in our> country.. It seems probable that although the Hindus are said to have> borrowed the 12 rashis from foreigners, they developed….already> known lines of astrology related to nakshatras".>> I rest with this.>> RNI>> hinducivilization, "Ravi" ravi7640@ wrote:> >> > "aareni" is a respected scholar contributing to our group and we> certainly> > give weightage to his views. Leaving aside the charges and counter> charges> > (a la breaking code etc) being bandied about here, could yousir> give> > your considered opinion analysing Kauls view point and hisopponent's> to us> > laymen so that we get a third opinion which is unbiased?> >

Moderator> > -> > "aareni" aareni@> > hinducivilization> > Friday, January 02, 2009 7:52 AM> > [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...)> >> >> > > Interested members including the moderator may read the postingson> > > the subject "WAVES,India- lecture on Astrology - a report" during> > > march 21, 2007-April 4,2007 on this list(#13535) . The same socalled> > > Vedic Astrologer threatened me with libel eventhough there was> > > nothing personal and nothing abusive in my postings. Perhaps his> > > clintele got reduced and hence the uncivilized threat was thrownat> > > me in this group dedicated to Hindu

civilization. This is typicalof> > > Delhi Govt.culture (no offence meant). When you can not defend> > > yourself logically, cry loudly. Better still, write a complaint> > > letter to the HoD with copies to President of India, PM,> RM....asking> > > for action. Make the hapless fellow waste his time in giving> > > explanations! ! Offence appears to be the best form of defence for> > > some people.> > > May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate theVedic> > > Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as MakaraSankranti)> > > to be observed on 14th January.> > >> > > RNI> > >>--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

[ Cf. [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...) - Imp ]

 

RNI wrote " There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedic

literature and in the Mahabharata(MBh). The single verse much cited by

astrologers in the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation. "

 

MBh clearly mentions the birthtime configurations of pandavas in

astrological terms, although complete horoscopes are not given. Many

concepts of astrology are clearly mentioned in MBh which are

erroneously believed to be of later origins, eg Sarvatobhadra Chakra

whose name appears in written form only during medieval period, but

was used by Karna in MBH.

 

Most important of all, the original story of MBh contains a proof

which suggests that both MBh and Suryasiddhanta belong to a

prehistoric eras : the measure of a YOJANA . I've devoted a chapter on

this most important but neglected topic in my book in Hindi, and I

will translate that page in English on some of my webpages IF some

readers are interested in it.

 

RNI hurries to conclusions without examining ancient texts with the

keen eyes of a pathologist or a telescope user. I scanned entire MBh

for its references to astrology, and my notes filled up 19 fullscape

pages, although MBh is not a work on astrology. Had I scanned MBh with

a preconceived notion that there was no astrology in MBh, I would not

have found anything at all.

 

If some proof of Rama's horoscope in Ramayana is found, it is declared

to be an interpolation : but on what grounds? Ramayana has too many

astrological references. There is no ground to suppose that all such

references are interpolations.

 

RNI wrote " May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate

the Vedic Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as Makara

Sankranti)to be observed on 14th January. " Christian New Year

commenced from nirayana Makar Samkranti for sixteen centuries, before

tropicalists substracted 13 days and now Jan-1 comes 13 days before

Makar Samkranti. God saved Christians from this abominable Makar

Samkranti, and now RNI wishes " May God save Hinduism " too.

 

If Vedic Astrology has no power to predict things, what is its use?

Merely a museum piece? Persons who have no interest in the real issues

of Vedic astrology have some hidden agendas : to prove that horoscopic

astrology was an importation from Greece, although it is well known

that Greece discovered nothing in astrology, and Greece itself

imported astrology from Egypt/Sumer.

 

One historian (DD Kosambi) had noted that PIE (Proto Indo European)

had a common term for foot, but no common term for hand ; he asked :

does it prove that Aryans had no hands before they separated from PIE?

Veda is not an encyclopaedia to contain everything. All Vaidikas know

fully well that any Vedic ritual cannot be performed without Vedic

Astrology. If auspiciousness of time is immaterial, then yajna is also

immaterial.

 

The proof of Vedic astrology is its predictive power. Mere

philological discussions will lead nowhere, because the practical

techniques of Vedic Astrology are still orally transmitted secrets.

Looking for Mt Meru in Pamir/Kailash/North Pole is futile, because

ancients believed otherwise. Nirayana astrology is not sidereal

astrology, because the physical stars are not fixed. World horoscope

made from Mt Meru gives reliable predictions for the whole world.

Readers may view one such reference at

http://www.mysticboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=58522 & sid=3fb778d10ff59869d8a1804cd40\

ea008

(also at

http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/World+Economy+%3A+Apr+2009-Mar+2010 )

 

RNI says " I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions " . I

invite such skeptics to view such proofs, but it will require a

knowledge of predictive methods of texts like Brihat Parashara Hora

Shastra. Vedic Astrology is an alive science, but distorted during

modern age by those who were cut off from the ancient roots. I will

supply ample evidences in a phased manner.

 

-VJ

========= ========= ========= ========= =========

 

, " Sreenadh "

<sreesog wrote:

>

> hinducivilization , " Sreenadh " <sreesog@> wrote:

>

>

> Dear RNI ji,

> ==>

> 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in his

> long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similar to

> Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as

> understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates he

> has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are in

> no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this

> book to the file section.

> <==

> What about " Atharva Parisishta " ? I wonder why it was not

mentioned by

> you! The text is available. A small note on Atharva Parisishta is given

> below -

> ======================================

>

> Atharava Parisishta

>

> This text is currently available in Devanagari Script without

> commentary, published by Chaukhamba Orientalia, Bangalow Road, Near

> Kamala Nagar, New Delhi.

>

> As the name suggests the word `Atharva Parisishta' refers

> to `rudiments of Atharva Veda'; rudiments that are part of the original

> Atharva Veda text or ancient vedic quotes that complements the subjects

> dealt within Atharva Veda in one way or the other. This text is ancient

> and authentic.

>

> For the availability of this ancient text in printed form,

> we are indebted to two eminent western Sanskrit philologists – Dr.

> Bolling and Dr. Negelein, who published this text in Roman script in AD

> 1909. The original manuscript of this text is available in various

> manuscript libraries in India and abroad, but none in print except the

> copy printed in Roman script by Dr. Bolling and Nr. Negelein. The

> current rendering of the same in Devanagari script is done by Ram Kumar

> Rai and published by Chaukhamba Orientalia.

>

> Similar to a Samhita text like Brihat Samhita, this text

> deals with numerous subjects related and unrelated to astrology. Some of

> the chapter names will give an idea about the vast amount of

> astrological info present in this text. To quote some chapter names

> – Nakshatra Kalpa (Stellar astrology), Vrishotsarga, Indra

> Mahotsava, Sambhara Lakshana, Arani Lakshana, Yajna patra Lakshana, Vedi

> Lakshana, Kundha Lakshana, Samit Lakshana, Sruva Lakshana, Hasta

> Lakshana (Palmistry), Jwala Lakshana (Omens by Flame), Chandra

> Pratipadikam, Graha Yuddha (Planetary war), Graha Samgraha (about

> planets), Rahu chara (Transit of Rahu), Ketu chara (Transit of Ketu),

> Kurma Vibhaga (geographical astrology), Dig daha Lakshana, Nirkhata

> Lakshana, Nakshatra Grahotpata Lakshana (Omens by Nakshatras and

> planets), Utpata Lakshanam, Atbhuta Santi etc to name a few.

>

> I suggest those who know Sanskrit to get a copy of this

> ancient that is a solid proof for the fact that Vedas (especially

> Atharva Veda) does deal with Predictive astrology in detail.

>

> ================

>

> Hope this clarifies the doubt of many about the existence of

> predictive astrology in Vedas. The following 4 texts can serve as the

> basic background for the reconstruction of ancient Vedic astrology that

> bases itself on the movement of Tropical Zodiac against the fixed

> Nakshatra Chakra.

> 1) Atharva Parisishta

> 2) Atharva Vedanga Jyotisha

> 3) Atharva Vedeeya Jyotisha

> 4) Atharvana Jyotish (Atma Jyotisha)

> An in-depth study of all these 4 texts clarifies that , the subject

> dealt within all these texts are consistent and is in tune with the

> Atharva Vedic tradition of Stellar Tropical astrology. These texts are

> enough to provide sufficient background to provide and facilitate the

> re-construction of ancient Stellar Tropical Vedic astrology. Coupled

> with the bits of available in other Vedanga Jyotisha texts, Vedic and

> Epic literature - now anyone can try re-constructing this ancient branch

> of astrology.

>

> Apart from the following points directly connected to Vedas also

> should be noted -

> * Atharva veda provides a quote in which it is said that - " The

native

> took birth in Moola Nakshatra may distroy his clan and also that the

> native took birth in Jyeshta Nakshatra may cause the death of his elder

> brother " . This is proof for the direct presence of astrology in Atharva

> Veda.

> * Vedas mention about " Good and Bad " Muhura. The classification of

> Muhurta into good or bad clearly indicates the existance of predictive

> astrology.

> * Rig Veda and Atharva Veda speak about the " Good and Bad " nature of

> Nakshatras and prays let such and such Nakshatra bring us good results

> etc. Connecting Nakshatras with the " possible results " is a clear proof

> for the existence of predictive astrology in Vedic period.

>

> The Kaulian argument is that the mention of all the planets are not

> available in Vedas. I wonder what is his opinion about Vedic sages! He

> must be considering them as fools, but still he agues in favor of

> reinstalling a calendar followed by them! I wonder why?! Any way that is

> another point, here goes the proof regarding the knowledge of the Vedic

> sages about the planets. Check this article at:

>

hinducivilizationVedic%20Proof%20of\

> %20Planets.pdf <../../../..Vedic%20Proof%20of%20Planets.pdf>

> * So the question is by supporting such baseless Kaulian arguments,

> are we upgrading or degrading the ancient indian culture?

> * If someone with a vested interest with a missionary zeal starts

> arguing in favor of xian western direction - should we support it or

> not?

> * If someone resorts to mere name calling and blaming of the very

> scholers such as the Sages (Parasara, Lomasa, Vasishta etc), Mihira,

> Aryabhata and numerous others who contributed to indian culture -

> should we accept and praise it or to understand the vested interests

> involved?

> * If someone starts arguing that Krishnashtami, Rama Navama,

> Sivaratrit etc are all baseless since they are all not mentioned in the

> Vedas - we should appreciate it or not? If some one argue that all

> festivals except the four which are based on 4 cardinal points such as

> solstices and equinoxes, should be rejected - should we praise it or see

> the xian vested interest involved?

>

> So the base question would be – are we wise enough to see the

> vested xian interest behind the missionary mission of people with vested

> interest or not or do we foolishly succumb to their agenda?!!!

>

> Regards,

> Sreenadh

>

>

> hinducivilization , " aareni " <aareni@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Moderator,

> > Thanks for your kind words. I have Responded to Kaul several times on

> IC

> > and HC and I don't like to write the same things again and again.

> About

> > Phala Jyotisha, horoscope, greek influence etc the same stuff is

> > recycled. I don't read many of the posts by certain members, because I

> > know what they like to say. It is a waste of time telling the same

> thing

> > again and again. However bowing to your request I am reposting a

> message

> > (giving my views about Kaul's posts) I wrote on 26 Sept, 2007. About

> his

> > opponents' views I hardly find anything solid to write about. As far

> as

> > Mr. Jai Maharaj's posts are concerned I don't respond to his after he

> > threatened me with libel! Not that I took it seriously, but this made

> me

> > understand his level of knowledge of Sanskrit and Jyotisha to be

> > unworthy of response. Those who like to discuss should read the

> original

> > books, previous posts on the subject and then comment. At present what

> > is happening on the list is mostly a street fight. The loudest man

> > thinks he has won. But the silent majority knows that this is not

> true!

> >

> > Here is my HC #21562:

> >

> > Dear Sri Kaul and members of HC: I seem to have hurt the feelings of

> Sri

> > Kaul. If yes, I am sorry; that was not my intention at all. In any

> > case this would be my last post on the agenda driven posts of " Vedic

> > Astrology " of Sri Avatar Krishna Kaul. (AKK for short, with no

> > disrespect shown). What has been posted by AKK is all

> > `CharvitacharvaNam' and I am not interested in wasting my time going

> > point by point. Instead of responding crisply to the two points I had

> > raised he has made a overkill! I concede I am not capable of saying

> the

> > same points again and again like missionaries with an agenda to

> convert

> > the opinions of the listeners. This group is made of diverse people

> with

> > varied interests. Some overlap with mine and many do not. I am sure

> this

> > applies to other members also. I picked up selectively only two

> points

> > from the Rotary talk of AKK. That is right! Because IMHO, in a

> > discussion we need to do only that. I have previously appreciated his

> > posts when they started appearing for the first time or at least when

> I

> > first came across them. My agreement with him has been largely limited

> > to

> >

> > 1) Winter solstice (UttarayaNa puNyakaala) is on December 23rd and

> not

> > on January 14th. The present day almanacs have to correct this. I have

> > also presented epigraphic evidences that ~500 or 1000 years back it

> was

> > celebrated on nearly the correct day. The mistake seems to have

> started

> > in the 19th century or thereabout. If corrected this of course changes

> a

> > few other dates like Summer solstice and the equinoctial days, which

> > have come down to us as part of our common `Vedic' ancestry.

> >

> > 2) There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedic

> literature

> > and in the Mahabharata. The single verse much cited by astrologers in

> > the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation.

> >

> > Differences with AKK are on the following:

> >

> > 3) About the knowledge of planets in the Vedas, the information is

> > equivocal. Sometimes it appears they knew, sometimes not. In such

> cases

> > it is better to present both the sides of the story and leave the

> > judgment to the members/readers. Same is the case with the twelve

> Rashi

> > divisions. To keep this post short I like to just say that RV samhita

> > has hymns which hint at animal like symbols in the sky. See

> particularly

> > the not well understood `Jemana' in the 10th Mandala. This certainly

> > does not prove that Vedic people knew Horoscopes much less that they

> > practiced the type of modern astrology sold on our streets today.

> There

> > are other such points but the above is sufficient.

> >

> > 4) The word " vedic " has been used and abused in various ways in the

> > English language. Previously on the IC list there was a debate on

> " Vedic

> > Mathematics " of Swami Bharati Krishna Tirtha. Some argue that it is

> not

> > Vedic because the text of the learned Swami is not found in any Vedic

> > literature known to us. Also there is an Indian English nuance here.

> > What the Swami seems to claim is that it is " Vaidika GaNita " which

> > makes perfect sense in Sanskrit. It is only related to Vedas in some

> > broad sense (Vedasya idam = vaidikam). This may be just an emotional

> or

> > spiritual connection as for an intuitive knowledge. Hence definitions

> of

> > technical words are very important before theories are proposed or

> > denounced. In relation to astrology or Phala-jyotisha what I have

> been

> > pointing out is that the roots are traceable to the Vedas. There is no

> > contradiction in my views posted on different dates. Belief in

> > astrology, even if its roots are in the Vedas is a different issue.

> When

> > I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions, it does not

> > matter whether I believe the predictions or not. I am not agenda

> driven

> > either way. To put it more picturesquely, I neither hunt with the

> > hounds nor run with the hares.

> >

> > 5) There is a more subtle point in the above. Vedas and Vedanga as a

> > collection of texts are different from " Vedic culture " although

> > connected closely. No one can claim that all the Vedic literature was

> > created in one day or one year or in one generation. But in

> discussions

> > many telescope their historical perception and exhibit their myopia in

> > not understanding the evolution of the cultural traits over the

> > millennia. If the names of the planets do not appear in Samhitas in

> the

> > way we use them now, how does it prove that Vedic people did not know

> > the planets? To the best of my knowledge our common Vedic tradition

> > holds that many Vedic shakhas and texts are lost over time. This will

> > not mean that the culture is also forgotten and lost. It would be

> living

> > in various forms, myths, rituals, beliefs etc. And our common culture

> > has been varied and pluralistic. There was a time (and place) in India

> > when Vedas were treated to be " only Three " (Thrayee). But now we do

> > include AtharvaNa Veda without any reservation. I pointed out AV

> > Parishista names the planets, (no Rashis) gives Puja vidhana (for

> > remedial measures) which presupposes malefic effects of certain

> planets.

> > If AKK finds this text not to his liking and thinks it is fabricated

> it

> > is his opinion. He has presented no proof or evidence for his claim

> > other than making fervent verbal appeals to that effect. I want HC

> > members to independently read the text and draw their own conclusions.

> > The text being published in Germany does not decrease its claim for

> > being `Vaidika'. As is well known many manuscripts were shipped out of

> > India and this is one among them. Alberuni's ignorance of this text

> > does not prove anything to me.

> >

> > 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in his

> > long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similar

> to

> > Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as

> > understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates

> he

> > has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are

> in

> > no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this

> > book to the file section. AKK is fond of quoting and citing SB

> Dikshit.

> > Let me quote SBD here about Atharva Jyotisha (Bharatiya Jyotish

> shastra

> > Pt.I, English Transl. by RV Vaidya pp97-100).

> >

> > " Let us now turn to... AJ. This consists of 14 Ch and 162 verses.

> > …..As we proceed further on we come across instructions about

> duties

> > to be performed on particular Muhurtas….The fourth chapter gives a

> > list of KaraNas (of thithis) with their names like those of our

> present

> > times……These verses discuss the auspicious……nature of

> planets

> > depending, of course on the strength of moon;….The following verse

> > gives names of seven days in a week calling the planets as `Lords of

> > days.'….After 100 verses one comes across…which is followed by

> > 62 more verses. This portion contains the seeds of predictional

> section

> > of astrology Jaataka… It is clear….this is not so ancient as

> Rk

> > or Yajur-J, still the consideration …that if the Meshadi Rashis

> > would have been in vogue ….they would have occurred in the text,

> > leads one to accept AJ is pretty old……This work describes a

> system

> > of astrology, very akin to and not quite different from the one which

> is

> > based on 12 rashis….No doubt can be entertained…that this

> system

> > of astrology originated and …independently developed in our

> > country.. It seems probable that although the Hindus are said to have

> > borrowed the 12 rashis from foreigners, they developed….already

> > known lines of astrology related to nakshatras " .

> >

> > I rest with this.

> >

> > RNI

> >

> > hinducivilization , " Ravi " ravi7640@ wrote:

> > >

> > > " aareni " is a respected scholar contributing to our group and we

> > certainly

> > > give weightage to his views. Leaving aside the charges and counter

> > charges

> > > (a la breaking code etc) being bandied about here, could you

> sir

> > give

> > > your considered opinion analysing Kauls view point and his

> opponent's

> > to us

> > > laymen so that we get a third opinion which is unbiased?

> > > Moderator

> > > -

> > > " aareni " aareni@

> > > hinducivilization

> > > Friday, January 02, 2009 7:52 AM

> > > [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...)

> > >

> > >

> > > > Interested members including the moderator may read the postings

> on

> > > > the subject " WAVES,India- lecture on Astrology - a report " during

> > > > march 21, 2007-April 4,2007 on this list(#13535). The same so

> called

> > > > Vedic Astrologer threatened me with libel eventhough there was

> > > > nothing personal and nothing abusive in my postings. Perhaps his

> > > > clintele got reduced and hence the uncivilized threat was thrown

> at

> > > > me in this group dedicated to Hindu civilization. This is typical

> of

> > > > Delhi Govt.culture (no offence meant). When you can not defend

> > > > yourself logically, cry loudly. Better still, write a complaint

> > > > letter to the HoD with copies to President of India, PM,

> > RM....asking

> > > > for action. Make the hapless fellow waste his time in giving

> > > > explanations!! Offence appears to be the best form of defence for

> > > > some people.

> > > > May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate the

> Vedic

> > > > Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as Makara

> Sankranti)

> > > > to be observed on 14th January.

> > > >

> > > > RNI

> > > >

> >

>

> --- End forwarded message ---

>

[Guest guest]

Hare ramakrishna

 

dear vinay ji

Namaskar

Thanks for this informativ write up ,can u giv us more clear understanding on instances quoted here when ever ur time permits ?

sorry if i am asking more

also pls upload in files section what ever u can if it is in english ( sorry i dont know hindi ,so is majority here in this grp )

we r expecting more contribution and guidance frm u

 

thanks and rgrds

 

sunil nair

 

om shreem mahalaxmai namah

 

, "vinayjhaa16" <vinayjhaa16 wrote:>> [ Cf. [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...) - Imp ]> > RNI wrote "There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedic> literature and in the Mahabharata(MBh). The single verse much cited by> astrologers in the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation."> > MBh clearly mentions the birthtime configurations of pandavas in> astrological terms, although complete horoscopes are not given. Many> concepts of astrology are clearly mentioned in MBh which are> erroneously believed to be of later origins, eg Sarvatobhadra Chakra> whose name appears in written form only during medieval period, but> was used by Karna in MBH. > > Most important of all, the original story of MBh contains a proof> which suggests that both MBh and Suryasiddhanta belong to a> prehistoric eras : the measure of a YOJANA . I've devoted a chapter on> this most important but neglected topic in my book in Hindi, and I> will translate that page in English on some of my webpages IF some> readers are interested in it. > > RNI hurries to conclusions without examining ancient texts with the> keen eyes of a pathologist or a telescope user. I scanned entire MBh> for its references to astrology, and my notes filled up 19 fullscape> pages, although MBh is not a work on astrology. Had I scanned MBh with> a preconceived notion that there was no astrology in MBh, I would not> have found anything at all. > > If some proof of Rama's horoscope in Ramayana is found, it is declared> to be an interpolation : but on what grounds? Ramayana has too many> astrological references. There is no ground to suppose that all such> references are interpolations.> > RNI wrote "May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate> the Vedic Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as Makara> Sankranti)to be observed on 14th January." Christian New Year> commenced from nirayana Makar Samkranti for sixteen centuries, before> tropicalists substracted 13 days and now Jan-1 comes 13 days before> Makar Samkranti. God saved Christians from this abominable Makar> Samkranti, and now RNI wishes "May God save Hinduism" too.> > If Vedic Astrology has no power to predict things, what is its use?> Merely a museum piece? Persons who have no interest in the real issues> of Vedic astrology have some hidden agendas : to prove that horoscopic> astrology was an importation from Greece, although it is well known> that Greece discovered nothing in astrology, and Greece itself> imported astrology from Egypt/Sumer. > > One historian (DD Kosambi) had noted that PIE (Proto Indo European)> had a common term for foot, but no common term for hand ; he asked :> does it prove that Aryans had no hands before they separated from PIE?> Veda is not an encyclopaedia to contain everything. All Vaidikas know> fully well that any Vedic ritual cannot be performed without Vedic> Astrology. If auspiciousness of time is immaterial, then yajna is also> immaterial.> > The proof of Vedic astrology is its predictive power. Mere> philological discussions will lead nowhere, because the practical> techniques of Vedic Astrology are still orally transmitted secrets.> Looking for Mt Meru in Pamir/Kailash/North Pole is futile, because> ancients believed otherwise. Nirayana astrology is not sidereal> astrology, because the physical stars are not fixed. World horoscope> made from Mt Meru gives reliable predictions for the whole world.> Readers may view one such reference at> http://www.mysticboard.com/viewtopic.php?t=58522 & sid=3fb778d10ff59869d8a1804cd40ea008> (also at > http://jyotirvidya.wetpaint.com/page/World+Economy+%3A+Apr+2009-Mar+2010 )> > RNI says "I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions". I> invite such skeptics to view such proofs, but it will require a> knowledge of predictive methods of texts like Brihat Parashara Hora> Shastra. Vedic Astrology is an alive science, but distorted during> modern age by those who were cut off from the ancient roots. I will> supply ample evidences in a phased manner.> > -VJ> ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= > > , "Sreenadh"> sreesog@ wrote:> >> > hinducivilization , "Sreenadh" <sreesog@> wrote:> > > > > > Dear RNI ji,> > ==>> > 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in his> > long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similar to> > Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as> > understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates he> > has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are in> > no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this> > book to the file section.> > <==> > What about "Atharva Parisishta"? I wonder why it was not> mentioned by> > you! The text is available. A small note on Atharva Parisishta is given> > below -> > ======================================> > > > Atharava Parisishta> > > > This text is currently available in Devanagari Script without> > commentary, published by Chaukhamba Orientalia, Bangalow Road, Near> > Kamala Nagar, New Delhi.> > > > As the name suggests the word `Atharva Parisishta' refers> > to `rudiments of Atharva Veda'; rudiments that are part of the original> > Atharva Veda text or ancient vedic quotes that complements the subjects> > dealt within Atharva Veda in one way or the other. This text is ancient> > and authentic.> > > > For the availability of this ancient text in printed form,> > we are indebted to two eminent western Sanskrit philologists – Dr.> > Bolling and Dr. Negelein, who published this text in Roman script in AD> > 1909. The original manuscript of this text is available in various> > manuscript libraries in India and abroad, but none in print except the> > copy printed in Roman script by Dr. Bolling and Nr. Negelein. The> > current rendering of the same in Devanagari script is done by Ram Kumar> > Rai and published by Chaukhamba Orientalia.> > > > Similar to a Samhita text like Brihat Samhita, this text> > deals with numerous subjects related and unrelated to astrology. Some of> > the chapter names will give an idea about the vast amount of> > astrological info present in this text. To quote some chapter names> > – Nakshatra Kalpa (Stellar astrology), Vrishotsarga, Indra> > Mahotsava, Sambhara Lakshana, Arani Lakshana, Yajna patra Lakshana, Vedi> > Lakshana, Kundha Lakshana, Samit Lakshana, Sruva Lakshana, Hasta> > Lakshana (Palmistry), Jwala Lakshana (Omens by Flame), Chandra> > Pratipadikam, Graha Yuddha (Planetary war), Graha Samgraha (about> > planets), Rahu chara (Transit of Rahu), Ketu chara (Transit of Ketu),> > Kurma Vibhaga (geographical astrology), Dig daha Lakshana, Nirkhata> > Lakshana, Nakshatra Grahotpata Lakshana (Omens by Nakshatras and> > planets), Utpata Lakshanam, Atbhuta Santi etc to name a few.> > > > I suggest those who know Sanskrit to get a copy of this> > ancient that is a solid proof for the fact that Vedas (especially> > Atharva Veda) does deal with Predictive astrology in detail.> > > > ================> > > > Hope this clarifies the doubt of many about the existence of> > predictive astrology in Vedas. The following 4 texts can serve as the> > basic background for the reconstruction of ancient Vedic astrology that> > bases itself on the movement of Tropical Zodiac against the fixed> > Nakshatra Chakra.> > 1) Atharva Parisishta> > 2) Atharva Vedanga Jyotisha> > 3) Atharva Vedeeya Jyotisha> > 4) Atharvana Jyotish (Atma Jyotisha)> > An in-depth study of all these 4 texts clarifies that , the subject> > dealt within all these texts are consistent and is in tune with the> > Atharva Vedic tradition of Stellar Tropical astrology. These texts are> > enough to provide sufficient background to provide and facilitate the> > re-construction of ancient Stellar Tropical Vedic astrology. Coupled> > with the bits of available in other Vedanga Jyotisha texts, Vedic and> > Epic literature - now anyone can try re-constructing this ancient branch> > of astrology.> > > > Apart from the following points directly connected to Vedas also> > should be noted -> > * Atharva veda provides a quote in which it is said that - "The> native> > took birth in Moola Nakshatra may distroy his clan and also that the> > native took birth in Jyeshta Nakshatra may cause the death of his elder> > brother". This is proof for the direct presence of astrology in Atharva> > Veda.> > * Vedas mention about "Good and Bad" Muhura. The classification of> > Muhurta into good or bad clearly indicates the existance of predictive> > astrology.> > * Rig Veda and Atharva Veda speak about the "Good and Bad" nature of> > Nakshatras and prays let such and such Nakshatra bring us good results> > etc. Connecting Nakshatras with the "possible results" is a clear proof> > for the existence of predictive astrology in Vedic period.> > > > The Kaulian argument is that the mention of all the planets are not> > available in Vedas. I wonder what is his opinion about Vedic sages! He> > must be considering them as fools, but still he agues in favor of> > reinstalling a calendar followed by them! I wonder why?! Any way that is> > another point, here goes the proof regarding the knowledge of the Vedic> > sages about the planets. Check this article at:> >> hinducivilizationVedic%20Proof%20of\> > %20Planets.pdf <../../../..Vedic%20Proof%20of%20Planets.pdf>> > * So the question is by supporting such baseless Kaulian arguments,> > are we upgrading or degrading the ancient indian culture?> > * If someone with a vested interest with a missionary zeal starts> > arguing in favor of xian western direction - should we support it or> > not?> > * If someone resorts to mere name calling and blaming of the very> > scholers such as the Sages (Parasara, Lomasa, Vasishta etc), Mihira,> > Aryabhata and numerous others who contributed to indian culture -> > should we accept and praise it or to understand the vested interests> > involved?> > * If someone starts arguing that Krishnashtami, Rama Navama,> > Sivaratrit etc are all baseless since they are all not mentioned in the> > Vedas - we should appreciate it or not? If some one argue that all> > festivals except the four which are based on 4 cardinal points such as> > solstices and equinoxes, should be rejected - should we praise it or see> > the xian vested interest involved?> > > > So the base question would be – are we wise enough to see the> > vested xian interest behind the missionary mission of people with vested> > interest or not or do we foolishly succumb to their agenda?!!!> > > > Regards,> > Sreenadh> > > > > > hinducivilization , "aareni" <aareni@> wrote:> > >> > >> > > Dear Moderator,> > > Thanks for your kind words. I have Responded to Kaul several times on> > IC> > > and HC and I don't like to write the same things again and again.> > About> > > Phala Jyotisha, horoscope, greek influence etc the same stuff is> > > recycled. I don't read many of the posts by certain members, because I> > > know what they like to say. It is a waste of time telling the same> > thing> > > again and again. However bowing to your request I am reposting a> > message> > > (giving my views about Kaul's posts) I wrote on 26 Sept, 2007. About> > his> > > opponents' views I hardly find anything solid to write about. As far> > as> > > Mr. Jai Maharaj's posts are concerned I don't respond to his after he> > > threatened me with libel! Not that I took it seriously, but this made> > me> > > understand his level of knowledge of Sanskrit and Jyotisha to be> > > unworthy of response. Those who like to discuss should read the> > original> > > books, previous posts on the subject and then comment. At present what> > > is happening on the list is mostly a street fight. The loudest man> > > thinks he has won. But the silent majority knows that this is not> > true!> > >> > > Here is my HC #21562:> > >> > > Dear Sri Kaul and members of HC: I seem to have hurt the feelings of> > Sri> > > Kaul. If yes, I am sorry; that was not my intention at all. In any> > > case this would be my last post on the agenda driven posts of "Vedic> > > Astrology" of Sri Avatar Krishna Kaul. (AKK for short, with no> > > disrespect shown). What has been posted by AKK is all> > > `CharvitacharvaNam' and I am not interested in wasting my time going> > > point by point. Instead of responding crisply to the two points I had> > > raised he has made a overkill! I concede I am not capable of saying> > the> > > same points again and again like missionaries with an agenda to> > convert> > > the opinions of the listeners. This group is made of diverse people> > with> > > varied interests. Some overlap with mine and many do not. I am sure> > this> > > applies to other members also. I picked up selectively only two> > points> > > from the Rotary talk of AKK. That is right! Because IMHO, in a> > > discussion we need to do only that. I have previously appreciated his> > > posts when they started appearing for the first time or at least when> > I> > > first came across them. My agreement with him has been largely limited> > > to> > >> > > 1) Winter solstice (UttarayaNa puNyakaala) is on December 23rd and> > not> > > on January 14th. The present day almanacs have to correct this. I have> > > also presented epigraphic evidences that ~500 or 1000 years back it> > was> > > celebrated on nearly the correct day. The mistake seems to have> > started> > > in the 19th century or thereabout. If corrected this of course changes> > a> > > few other dates like Summer solstice and the equinoctial days, which> > > have come down to us as part of our common `Vedic' ancestry.> > >> > > 2) There are no references to Horoscopes in the whole Vedic> > literature> > > and in the Mahabharata. The single verse much cited by astrologers in> > > the Ramayana is most probably a later interpolation.> > >> > > Differences with AKK are on the following:> > >> > > 3) About the knowledge of planets in the Vedas, the information is> > > equivocal. Sometimes it appears they knew, sometimes not. In such> > cases> > > it is better to present both the sides of the story and leave the> > > judgment to the members/readers. Same is the case with the twelve> > Rashi> > > divisions. To keep this post short I like to just say that RV samhita> > > has hymns which hint at animal like symbols in the sky. See> > particularly> > > the not well understood `Jemana' in the 10th Mandala. This certainly> > > does not prove that Vedic people knew Horoscopes much less that they> > > practiced the type of modern astrology sold on our streets today.> > There> > > are other such points but the above is sufficient.> > >> > > 4) The word "vedic" has been used and abused in various ways in the> > > English language. Previously on the IC list there was a debate on> > "Vedic> > > Mathematics" of Swami Bharati Krishna Tirtha. Some argue that it is> > not> > > Vedic because the text of the learned Swami is not found in any Vedic> > > literature known to us. Also there is an Indian English nuance here.> > > What the Swami seems to claim is that it is "Vaidika GaNita" which> > > makes perfect sense in Sanskrit. It is only related to Vedas in some> > > broad sense (Vedasya idam = vaidikam). This may be just an emotional> > or> > > spiritual connection as for an intuitive knowledge. Hence definitions> > of> > > technical words are very important before theories are proposed or> > > denounced. In relation to astrology or Phala-jyotisha what I have> > been> > > pointing out is that the roots are traceable to the Vedas. There is no> > > contradiction in my views posted on different dates. Belief in> > > astrology, even if its roots are in the Vedas is a different issue.> > When> > > I ask for statistical proof of astrological predictions, it does not> > > matter whether I believe the predictions or not. I am not agenda> > driven> > > either way. To put it more picturesquely, I neither hunt with the> > > hounds nor run with the hares.> > >> > > 5) There is a more subtle point in the above. Vedas and Vedanga as a> > > collection of texts are different from "Vedic culture" although> > > connected closely. No one can claim that all the Vedic literature was> > > created in one day or one year or in one generation. But in> > discussions> > > many telescope their historical perception and exhibit their myopia in> > > not understanding the evolution of the cultural traits over the> > > millennia. If the names of the planets do not appear in Samhitas in> > the> > > way we use them now, how does it prove that Vedic people did not know> > > the planets? To the best of my knowledge our common Vedic tradition> > > holds that many Vedic shakhas and texts are lost over time. This will> > > not mean that the culture is also forgotten and lost. It would be> > living> > > in various forms, myths, rituals, beliefs etc. And our common culture> > > has been varied and pluralistic. There was a time (and place) in India> > > when Vedas were treated to be "only Three" (Thrayee). But now we do> > > include AtharvaNa Veda without any reservation. I pointed out AV> > > Parishista names the planets, (no Rashis) gives Puja vidhana (for> > > remedial measures) which presupposes malefic effects of certain> > planets.> > > If AKK finds this text not to his liking and thinks it is fabricated> > it> > > is his opinion. He has presented no proof or evidence for his claim> > > other than making fervent verbal appeals to that effect. I want HC> > > members to independently read the text and draw their own conclusions.> > > The text being published in Germany does not decrease its claim for> > > being `Vaidika'. As is well known many manuscripts were shipped out of> > > India and this is one among them. Alberuni's ignorance of this text> > > does not prove anything to me.> > >> > > 6) AKK has not answered my question (or I could not locate it in his> > > long posts) about how he claims that `Atharavan Jyuotisha' is similar> > to> > > Rik and Yajur Jyotisha which two form the Vedanga Jyotisha text as> > > understood today. I was not interested in asking him about the dates> > he> > > has fixed for the last two texts in his talk. The contents of AJ are> > in> > > no way comparable to the first two. That is why I had to upload this> > > book to the file section. AKK is fond of quoting and citing SB> > Dikshit.> > > Let me quote SBD here about Atharva Jyotisha (Bharatiya Jyotish> > shastra> > > Pt.I, English Transl. by RV Vaidya pp97-100).> > >> > > "Let us now turn to... AJ. This consists of 14 Ch and 162 verses.> > > …..As we proceed further on we come across instructions about> > duties> > > to be performed on particular Muhurtas….The fourth chapter gives a> > > list of KaraNas (of thithis) with their names like those of our> > present> > > times……These verses discuss the auspicious……nature of> > planets> > > depending, of course on the strength of moon;….The following verse> > > gives names of seven days in a week calling the planets as `Lords of> > > days.'….After 100 verses one comes across…which is followed by> > > 62 more verses. This portion contains the seeds of predictional> > section> > > of astrology Jaataka… It is clear….this is not so ancient as> > Rk> > > or Yajur-J, still the consideration …that if the Meshadi Rashis> > > would have been in vogue ….they would have occurred in the text,> > > leads one to accept AJ is pretty old……This work describes a> > system> > > of astrology, very akin to and not quite different from the one which> > is> > > based on 12 rashis….No doubt can be entertained…that this> > system> > > of astrology originated and …independently developed in our> > > country.. It seems probable that although the Hindus are said to have> > > borrowed the 12 rashis from foreigners, they developed….already> > > known lines of astrology related to nakshatras".> > >> > > I rest with this.> > >> > > RNI> > >> > > hinducivilization , "Ravi" ravi7640@ wrote:> > > >> > > > "aareni" is a respected scholar contributing to our group and we> > > certainly> > > > give weightage to his views. Leaving aside the charges and counter> > > charges> > > > (a la breaking code etc) being bandied about here, could you> > sir> > > give> > > > your considered opinion analysing Kauls view point and his> > opponent's> > > to us> > > > laymen so that we get a third opinion which is unbiased?> > > > Moderator> > > > -> > > > "aareni" aareni@> > > > hinducivilization > > > > Friday, January 02, 2009 7:52 AM> > > > [hc] Kaul defames, commits libel (Was: Re: Astro signs...)> > > >> > > >> > > > > Interested members including the moderator may read the postings> > on> > > > > the subject "WAVES,India- lecture on Astrology - a report" during> > > > > march 21, 2007-April 4,2007 on this list(#13535). The same so> > called> > > > > Vedic Astrologer threatened me with libel eventhough there was> > > > > nothing personal and nothing abusive in my postings. Perhaps his> > > > > clintele got reduced and hence the uncivilized threat was thrown> > at> > > > > me in this group dedicated to Hindu civilization. This is typical> > of> > > > > Delhi Govt.culture (no offence meant). When you can not defend> > > > > yourself logically, cry loudly. Better still, write a complaint> > > > > letter to the HoD with copies to President of India, PM,> > > RM....asking> > > > > for action. Make the hapless fellow waste his time in giving> > > > > explanations!! Offence appears to be the best form of defence for> > > > > some people.> > > > > May God save Hinduism from Vedic Astrologers, who advocate the> > Vedic> > > > > Uttarayana Punyakala (known from medieval times as Makara> > Sankranti)> > > > > to be observed on 14th January.> > > > >> > > > > RNI> > > > >> > >> > > > --- End forwarded message ---> >>