Guest guest Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 hinducivilization , " J.venkatasubramanian " <apexpreci2000 wrote: Ramesh ji, There was a purpose for that specific post. Our modern Hinduism is first 1. externally Puranic- We worship all puranic Gods 2. Vedantic in essence AND, vedic in fundamentals. The Agamic sect (at least Saivic) is a direct superimposition on the puranic system with Vedic fundamentals with a new name of Siddhanta. That does not make it separate or superior. (and older, as is claimed). Saiva Siddhanta Agamas admit they view Vedas with respect but not as authority. Most of Saiva and Vaishnava Agamas were written in Tamilnadu. The proof is the grantha script in which they are all written. Grantha was the sanskrit script developed in Tamilnadu. I am sure, it was brahmins of Tamilnadu were the ones who wrote them. With the collapse of the Vedic civilization and with the rise of Bhakti movement, the Agamas were necessitated. The Kings would have wanted some 'governing documents'. Perhaps they were written on Royal direction and patronage. In the Himalayan academy website, I read many sections of Agamas (mostly Karma Kanda) andthey all point a virtual continuation of Vedic system modified to suit temple centred village life. It is here perhaps , that I sense a difference from the strictly puranic religion which is purely Bhakti oriented. Agamic sects tie the practioners with symbols like Murthys in a rather blind way. The person who has received diksha is no more that liberal Bhaktiman. He is a rigid sectarian with blinders. Here arises the poison of hatred towards other sects. And, the population that is given diksha , (which makes them sectarian and Agamic) is a miniscule one compared to the rest of Hindus who are cosmopolitan in outlook and worship all Gods irrespective of 'hues'. And, tantric occultism still has a hold on Agamic Hinduism in that, theobscene sculptures on the vimanas and temple interiors all portary its influence. Sthapathis , even today follow this pattern. I could get no satisfactory explanation from any authority as to WHY such sculptures adorn temples. I saw even in a Vaishnava temple, near Coimbatore, one such sculpture. I do not know whether it is built on Pancharatra or Vaikanasa agama. But can you or anyone tell me whether such things are permitted in Vaishnava Agamic teachings too ? I think, our swamijis and Adheena kartas revise such rules and make changes in tune with times. Venkat hinducivilization , " Ramesh Krishnamurthy " <rkmurthy@> wrote: > > Dear J. Venkatasubramanian, > > First of all, Tantra is not the same as Vaama Marga. There have been > various Hindu groups who have followed the Vaama path, and some of > them are Tantric, but it is quite wrong to equate the too. > The Vaama path has faced much criticism but it is nowhere as " immoral " > as you make it out to be. We on this forum need to take a larger > Hindu perspective instead of bickering in this manner. > > Swami Dayananda of the Arya Samaj is NOT an authority on any aspect of > traditional Hindu Dharma, be it Vedic or Tantric. The contributions of > the Arya Samaj lie in a different sphere - namely the social context > of colonial India, especially the Punjab. > > Ramesh > > > 2008/12/29 J.venkatasubramanian apexpreci2000@ > > > > The sect of Vaama Margis.. > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 hinducivilization , ShankaraBharadwaj Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj wrote: " Tantra has lot of rituals, including sacrifice, wine, meat, sex and everything else.. but the fact, that it was aimed towards spirituality cannot be negated, no matter how far the methods are controversial and unacceptable. . In my own limited understanding, tantric practices are aimed at trying unexplored forces of human life, that are not possible under normal civilised society.. " This is the reason why the practices must be pursued in the night, in seclusion and secretly - as the relevant texts ordain. That does not make them " inferior " , but they are simply not for public consumption. It is between the teacher and disciple, and only a person who transcends the terrestrial view of the practices is initiated into those. One who indulge out of desire or natural instinct is prohibited from those. Even for one who is initiated into those practices, the ordained partner is Adya Sakti, his own spouse. Tantra is upasana marga, and is practiced within the framework of Hindu society - and the persons that indulge in various practices either do it within the civil, social stipulations of it, our remain outside its fold for practices that are not socially viable. For than matter technically sanyasi is also outside the social fold. And they are not norms. Dragging them into open debate, and then calling them uncivil, is one of the many " gifts " the 19-20 century western scholarship gave us. Yes, there were negative effects - which were duly addressed by various movements within Hinduism, which emphasized satvic practices. But just the way problems of Hindu society are different from Hindu society as a problem, some effects of Vamacara are not the same as Vamacara as a problem. We can see that defiance is consequent of calumny and being targeted. The way we see defiance in Tamil Brahmins consequent to the way they are targeted in the past few decades, we also see a defiance in Sakta Tantrics. And adding to the divide is not the best way to go about it. ________________________________ senthil_nkkl <senthil_nkkl hinducivilization Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:30:44 AM Re: [hc] Tantra or Vama Marga- Swamy Dayananda Adding to this, there are numerous cultures, sects, philosophies and practices followed in india for the past 3000 years.. Venkat has forwarded these texts taken from Swamy Dayananda saraswathi (old) of arya samaj.. It also has to be noted that, swamy dayananda saraswathi was a vedic supremacist, and that he personifies veda and ridicules all others, including buddhism, christianity and islam.. So, in one way, he was completely biased in vedas, and thus portrayed evertyhing else in negative tone.. In that case, we cannot take as it is what he has written .. Tantra has lot of rituals, including sacrifice, wine, meat, sex and everything else.. but the fact, that it was aimed towards spirituality cannot be negated, no matter how far the methods are controversial and unacceptable. . In my own limited understanding, tantric practices are aimed at trying unexplored forces of human life, that are not possible under normal civilised society.. For example, Sex is a form of life energy, which was used even by buddhist tantrics.. Regards, Senthil hinducivilization, " Ramesh Krishnamurthy " <rkmurthy@ .> wrote: > > Dear J. Venkatasubramanian, > > First of all, Tantra is not the same as Vaama Marga. There have been > various Hindu groups who have followed the Vaama path, and some of > them are Tantric, but it is quite wrong to equate the too. > The Vaama path has faced much criticism but it is nowhere as " immoral " > as you make it out to be. We on this forum need to take a larger > Hindu perspective instead of bickering in this manner. > > Swami Dayananda of the Arya Samaj is NOT an authority on any aspect of > traditional Hindu Dharma, be it Vedic or Tantric. The contributions of > the Arya Samaj lie in a different sphere - namely the social context > of colonial India, especially the Punjab. > > Ramesh > > > 2008/12/29 J.venkatasubramania n <apexpreci2000@ ...> > > > > The sect of Vaama Margis.. > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 // And adding to the divide is not the best way to go about it. // Best said. regards/Bhaskar , "Sreenadh" <sreesog wrote:>> hinducivilization , ShankaraBharadwaj> Khandavalli shankarabharadwaj@ wrote:> > "> Tantra has lot of rituals, including sacrifice, wine, meat, sex and> everything else.. but the fact, that it was aimed towards> spirituality cannot be negated, no matter how far the methods are> controversial and unacceptable. .> > In my own limited understanding, tantric practices are aimed at trying> unexplored forces of human life, that are not possible under normal> civilised society.."> > This is the reason why the practices must be pursued in the night, in> seclusion and secretly - as the relevant texts ordain. That does not> make them "inferior", but they are simply not for public consumption.> It is between the teacher and disciple, and only a person who> transcends the terrestrial view of the practices is initiated into> those. One who indulge out of desire or natural instinct is prohibited> from those. Even for one who is initiated into those practices, the> ordained partner is Adya Sakti, his own spouse. > > Tantra is upasana marga, and is practiced within the framework of> Hindu society - and the persons that indulge in various practices> either do it within the civil, social stipulations of it, our remain> outside its fold for practices that are not socially viable. For than> matter technically sanyasi is also outside the social fold. And they> are not norms. Dragging them into open debate, and then calling them> uncivil, is one of the many "gifts" the 19-20 century western> scholarship gave us. > > Yes, there were negative effects - which were duly addressed by> various movements within Hinduism, which emphasized satvic practices.> But just the way problems of Hindu society are different from Hindu> society as a problem, some effects of Vamacara are not the same as> Vamacara as a problem. > > We can see that defiance is consequent of calumny and being targeted.> The way we see defiance in Tamil Brahmins consequent to the way they> are targeted in the past few decades, we also see a defiance in Sakta> Tantrics. And adding to the divide is not the best way to go about it. > > > > > > ________________________________> senthil_nkkl senthil_nkkl@> hinducivilization > Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:30:44 AM> Re: [hc] Tantra or Vama Marga- Swamy Dayananda> > > Adding to this, there are numerous cultures, sects, philosophies and> practices followed in india for the past 3000 years..> > Venkat has forwarded these texts taken from Swamy Dayananda saraswathi> (old) of arya samaj..> > It also has to be noted that, swamy dayananda saraswathi was a vedic> supremacist, and that he personifies veda and ridicules all others,> including buddhism, christianity and islam..> So, in one way, he was completely biased in vedas, and thus portrayed> evertyhing else in negative tone..> > In that case, we cannot take as it is what he has written ..> > Tantra has lot of rituals, including sacrifice, wine, meat, sex and> everything else.. but the fact, that it was aimed towards> spirituality cannot be negated, no matter how far the methods are> controversial and unacceptable. .> > In my own limited understanding, tantric practices are aimed at trying> unexplored forces of human life, that are not possible under normal> civilised society..> > For example, Sex is a form of life energy, which was used even by> buddhist tantrics..> > Regards,> Senthil> > hinducivilization, "Ramesh Krishnamurthy"> <rkmurthy@ .> wrote:> >> > Dear J. Venkatasubramanian,> > > > First of all, Tantra is not the same as Vaama Marga. There have been> > various Hindu groups who have followed the Vaama path, and some of> > them are Tantric, but it is quite wrong to equate the too.> > The Vaama path has faced much criticism but it is nowhere as "immoral"> > as you make it out to be. We on this forum need to take a larger> > Hindu perspective instead of bickering in this manner.> > > > Swami Dayananda of the Arya Samaj is NOT an authority on any aspect of> > traditional Hindu Dharma, be it Vedic or Tantric. The contributions of> > the Arya Samaj lie in a different sphere - namely the social context> > of colonial India, especially the Punjab.> > > > Ramesh> > > > > > 2008/12/29 J.venkatasubramania n <apexpreci2000@ ...>> > >> > > The sect of Vaama Margis..> >> > --- End forwarded message ---> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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